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EVIDENCE 

ON CONDITIONS 
IN IRELAND 



COMPRISING 

The Complete Testimony, 

Affidavits and Exhibits 

Presented before 

The American Commission on Conditions 
in Ireland 



Transcribed and Annotated 

by 

ALBERT COYLE 

Official Reporter to the Commission 



um-s u 



Bliss Building 
Washington, D. C. 




> 



0^ 

vi 






SINCE the sole purpose for the organiza- 
tion of the American Commission on 
Conditions in Ireland and the publication 
of this volume of Evidence is to let the 
American people know the facts about the 
Irish crisis, will you not render the service 
of bringing it to the attention of your 
friends? Evidence on Conditions in Ireland 
may "he had for $1 in art paper covers, $1.50 
cloth bound; and the supplemental Report 
of the Commission (152 pages, illustrated) 
for 35c per copy. Orders may be sent to 
Albert Coyle, Official Reporter to the Com- 
mission, Bliss Building, Washington, D. C. 



THE COMMITTEE OF ONE HUNDRED FIFTY 
ON CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

The American Commission on Conditions in Ireland was selected 
by and derives its authority from a committee of distinguished 
Americans brought together through the efforts of the editors of 
the New York Nation to perform the service of ascertaining for the 
American people the truth about conditions in Ireland, which in- 
creasingly menace the friendly relations that have existed between 
Great Britain and the United States. In order to secure an impar- 
tial and distinguished body for this investigation, every United 
States Senator, every State governor, every member of the higher 
clergy of the Protestant, Roman Catholic and Jewish churches, and 
the leading educators, journalists, editors, mayors, and publicists 
of the country were extended an invitation to become members of 
this committee, over 150 of whom accepted, including 5 State gov- 
ernors, 11 United States Senators, 13 Congressmen, the mayors of 
15 large cities, the late Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop Keane, 7 
Protestant Episcopal bishops, 4 Roman Catholic bishops. 4 Meth- 
odist bishops, and other eminent public men and women, repre- 
senting a broad diversity of racial stocks and political and religious 
beliefs, and covering geographically 36 states of the Union. 

The personnel of the Committee of One Hundred Fifty on Con- 
ditions in Ireland is as follows: 

Jane Addams, Hull House, Chicago, 111. 

Hon. Charles F. Amidon, U. S. District Judge, Fargo, N. D. 

U. S. Senator Henry F. Ashurst, Prescott, Arizona. 

Bishop James Atkins, M. E. Church, South, Nashville, Tenn. 

Mary Austin, writer and lecturer. New York City. 

Abby Scott Baker, Washington, D. C. 

Governor Simon Bamberger, Salt Lake City, Utah. 

Abraham Baroff, International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union, New 

York City. 
Rt. Rev. Troy Beatty, P. E. Bishop of Tennessee. 
Mayor C. F. Beck, Akron, Ohio. 
Mayor Martin Behrman, New Orleans, La. 

Fred G. Biedenkapp, Brotherhood of Metal Workers, New York. 
William Harman Black, former member National War Labor Board, New 

York City. 
Alice Stone Blackwell, Boston, Mass. 
Harriet Stanton Blatch, New York City. 
Lucy Branham, New York City. 
J. M. Budish, United Cloth, Hat, and Cap Makers of America, New York 

City. 
Rt. Rev. Hugh L. Burleson, P. E. Bishop of South Dakota. 
Rt. Rev. C. E. Byrne, Bishop of Galveston, Texas. 
Governor Thomas E. Campbell, Phoenix, Arizona. 
Rt. Rev. John J. Cantwell, Bishop of Monterey and Los Angeles. 
U. S. Senator Arthur Capper, Topeka, Kansas. 
Governor Robert D. Carey, Cheyenne, Wyoming. 

Ill 



IV 

Frank E. Carstarphen, Special Counsel for the Federal Government. New 

York City. 
J. J. Castellini, merchant, Cincinnati, Ohio. 
Parley P. Christensen, Presidential candidate, Farmer-Labor Partv, Salt 

Lake City, Utah. 
Professor Arthur C. Cole, Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio. 
George W. Coleman, President of the Open Forum National Council. 

Boston, Mass. 
Martin Conboy, former Director of the Draft, New York City. 
Henry W. L. Dana, Cambridge, Mass. 
Rev. William Horace Day, former Moderator of the National Council of 

Congregational Churches of U. S., Bridgeport, Conn. 
Rt. Rev. E. T. Demby, P. E. Suffragan Bishop of the Colored Race, 

Province of the Southwest, Little Rock, Ark. 
Dr. W. E. B. Du Bois, editor of The Crisis, New York City. 
Professor Horace A. Eaton, Syracuse University, Syracuse, N. Y. 
Governor Edward I. Edwards. Trenton, N. J. 
John Lovejoy Elliott, Hudson Guild, New York City. 
Hon. J. W. Folk, former Governor of Missouri, Washington, D. C. 
Mrs. Andre Fouilhoux, Short Hills, N. J. 

Clemens J. France, former Collector of the Port of Seattle, Wash. 
Royal W: France, lawyer, New York City. 
Governor Lynn J. Frazier, Bismarck, N. D. 
Zona Gale, writer. Portage, Wis. 

John F. Galvin, former Chairman, Board of Water Supply, New York. 
Gilson Gardner, Washington correspondent, Newspaper Enterprise Ass'n. 
His Eminence James Cardinal Gibbons, Baltimore, Md. (deceased). 
Mayor C. P. Gillen, Newark, N. J. 
Arthur Gleason, writer. New York City. 

Hon. James H. Graham, former Congressman, Springfield, 111. 
Mayor Frank J. Hague, Jersey City, N. J. 
William Hard, writer, Washington, D. C. 

Rt. Rev. Robert Le Roy Harris, P. E. Bishop of Marquette, Mich. 
Dr. Gillette Hayden, Columbus, Ohio. 

Professor Carlton J. Hayes, Columbia University, New York. 
Mayor J. J. Hayes, Vicksburg, Miss. 

William Randolph Hearst, newspaper publisher, New York City. 
Charles B. Henderson, former U. S. Senator, Elko, Nevada. 
Mayor Joseph Herman, Newport, Ky. 
Morris Hillquit, lawyer, New York City. 
Rabbi E. E. Hirsch, Professor of Rabbinical Literature and Philosophy, 

University of Chicago. 
Mayor Daniel W. Hoan, Milwaukee, Wis. 
Judge George Holmes, Omaha, Nebr. 
Rev. John Haynes Holmes, President Free Religious Association, New 

York City. 
Rt. Rev. J. M. Horner, P. E. Bishop of Asheville, N. C. 
Frederic C. Howe, former Commissioner of Immigration of the Port of 

New York. 
Bishop John Hurst, Methodist Episcopal Church, Baltimore, Md. 
Mayor John F. Hylan, New York City. 

Dr. Edmund J. James, President Emeritus, University of Illinois. 
U. S. Senator Hiram W. Johnson, San Francisco, California. 
James Weldon Johnson, Secretary of the National Association for the 

Advancement of Colored People, New York City. 
William H. Johnston, President International Association of Machinists, 

Washington, D. C. 
Rev. Paul Jones, formerly P. E. Bishop of Utah. New York City. 
Dr. David Starr Jordan, Chancellor Emeritus, Leland Stanford Jr. Uni- 
versity, California. 
Most Rev. James J. Keane, Archbishop of Dubuque, Iowa. 
Mayor H. W. Kiel, St. Louis, Mo. 

Edwin P. Kilroe, Assistant District Attorney, New York City. 
Richard R. Kilroy, editor. Anaconda Standard, Butte, Mont. 



V 

Dr. George W. Kirchwey, Head of Department of Criminology, New York 
School of Social Work, New York City. 

Rev. G. S. Lackland, Denver, Colo. 

U. S. Senator Robert M. La Follette, Wisconsin. 

Hon. F. H. La Guardia, President of the Board of Aldermen, N. Y. City. 

John S. Leahy, St. Louis, Mo. 

Owen R. Lovejoy, General Secretary, National Child Labor Committee, 
New York City. 

Professor Robert Morss Lovett, University of Chicago. 

Hazel MacKave, Director of the Bureau of Pageantrv and the Drama, 
Y. W. C. A., New York City. 

Rabbi Judah L. Magnes, Chairman of the Executive Committee. Jewish 
Community (Kehillah) of New York City. 

Mayor James B. McCavitt, Anaconda. Mont. 

Allen McCurdy, Secretary of the National Executive Committee, Commit- 
tee of 48, New York City. 

U. S. Senator Charles L. McNary, Salem, Oregon. 

Bertha H. Maillv, Executive Secretary, Rand School of Social Science, 
New York City. 

Hon. Dudley Field Malone, former Assistant Secretary of the U. S. 
Treasury, New York City. 

Basil M. Manly, Director of the Scripps Economic Bureau, Washington, 
D. C. 

Mayor Elliott Marshall, St. Joseph. Mo. 

Anne Martin, publicist, Reno, Nev. 

Congressman William E. Mason, Chicago, 111. 

James H. Maurer, President. Pennsylvania State Federation of Labor, 
Harrisburg", Pa. 

Mrs. Katherine M. Meserole, Bellport, Long Island, N. Y. 

John E. Milholland. business man and writer. New York City. 

A. P. Moore, editor of the Pittsburgh Leader, Pittsburgh, Pa. 

Mrs. Agnes H. Morey, P.rookline, Mass. 

Bishop H. C. Morrison, M. E. Church, South, Leesburg, Fla. 

William J. Mulligan, Supreme Director of Knights of Columbus, Thomp- 
sonville, Conn. 

Mrs. William Spencer Murray, Catskill, N. Y. 

Professor William A. Nitze, head of the Department of Romance Lan- 
guages and Literatures, University of Chicago. 

Edward N. Nockels, associate editor. The New Majority, Chicago, 111. 

Rt. Rev. John J. O'Connor, Bishop of Newark, N. J. 

Daniel C. O'Flaherty. Richmond, Va. 

Rt. Rev. Charles T. Olmsted, P. E. Bishop of Central New York. 

M. O'Neill. Akron. Ohio. 

Rt. Rev. Edward L. Parsons. P. E. Bishop Coadjutor of California, San 
Francisco. Calif. 

Captain Julius C. Peyser, Washington, D. C. 

U. S. Senator James D. Phelan, San Francisco, Calif. 

Rev. Watson L. Phillips, Shelton, Conn. 

Amos R. E. Pinchot, lawyer and publicist, New York City. 

Mayor Willis H. Plunkett, Phoenix, Ariz. 

Rev. Levi M. Powers, Washington, D. C. 

Mayor George A. Quigley. New Britain, Conn. 

Mayor Edward W. Quinn, Cambridge, Mass. 

Congressman Charles E. Randall, Kenosha, Wis. 

U. S. Senator Joseph E. Ransdell, Louisiana. 

Mrs. James Rector, Columbus, Ohio. 

Raymond Robins, formerly Commissioner in command of the American 
Red Cross Mission to Russia, Chicago, 111. 

Gilbert E. Roe, lawyer. New York City. 

Mrs. John Rogers, Jr., New York City. 

Rev. John A. Ryan, Professor of Theology, Catholic University of Amer- 
ica, Washington, D. C. 



VI 

Professor Ferdinand Schevill, Professor of Modern History, University 
of Chicago. 

Rose Schneidermann, Woman's Trade Union League, New York. 

Mayor Cornell Schrieber, Toledo, Ohio. 

Hon. R. O. Sharon, Peoria, 111. 

Congressman Isaac R. Sherwood. Toledo, Ohio. 

Dr. John S. Simon, St. Louis, Mo. 

J. C. Skemp, International Union of Painters and Decorators, Lafayette, 
Indiana. 

Mayor E. P. Smith, Omaha, Nebr. 

Mrs. Anna Garlin Spencer, minister, educator, White Plains, N. Y. 

U. S. Senator Selden P. Spencer, St. Louis, Missouri. 

Emma Steghagen, Woman's Trade Union League, Chicago, 111. 

Doris Stevens, New York City. 

Mayor Peter F. Sullivan, Worcester, Mass. 

Rev. Norman M. Thomas, editor of The World Tomorrow. New York City. 

Richard C. Tolman, Associate Director Fixed Nitrogen Research Labora- 
tory, War Department, Washington, D. C. 

Albert B. Unger, Assistant District Attorney, New York City. 

Hon. Tames K. Vardaman, former U. S. Senator, Jackson, Miss. 

Mrs. Henry Villard, Dobbs Ferry, N. Y. 

Congressman Edward Voight, Sheboygan. Wis. 

John H. Walker, President Illinois State Federation of Labor, Springfield. 
Illinois. 

U. S. Senator David I. Walsh, Boston, Mass. 

J. Barnard Walton, General Secretary, Advancement Committee, General 
Conference of the Religious Society of Friends, Philadelphia, Pa. 

Dr. James P. Warbasse, President of the Cooperative League of America. 
New York City. 

William Allen White, editor of the Emporia Gazette. Emporia, Kansas. 

Rt. Rev. Cortlandt Whitehead, P. E. Bishop of Pittsburgh. Pa. 

L. Hollingsworth Wood, lawyer. New York City. 

PERSONNEL OF THE COMMISSION ON CONDITIONS 

IN IRELAND 

The foregoing members of the Committee on Conditions in Ire- 
land elected from their number a commission of five, with power to 
enlarge its personnel by calling other members of the parent com- 
mittee to aid it in the prosecution of a public inquiry into conditions 
in Ireland. It was thus assured that the Commission entrusted with 
the task of making this important inquiry should be composed of 
persons of national distinction and of ability and integrity beyond 
question. The Commission as finally constituted consists of the 
following members: 

L. Hollingsworth Wood, Chairman — Lawyer and publicist. A graduate 
of Haverford College, Pennsylvania, and Columbia University Law School, 
New York City, Mr. Wood was admitted to the bar of the State of New 
York in 1899, and has distinguished himself in the practice of law in New 
York City. Besides his professional attainments, Mr. Wood has devoted 
himself unselfishly to a number of humanitarian causes. He is a member 
of the American Civil Liberties Union, vice-president of the Board of 
Trustees of Fisk University. Nashville, Tennessee ; member of the Board 
of Managers of Haverford College; president of the National Urban 
League for the Improvement of Race Relations Within the United States ; 
and an influential member of the Society of Friends (Quakers). Mr. 
Wood has traveled extensively in Europe, Asia, and Africa; he is one of 
the few Americans who have toured England on a cricket team ; and he 
has visited Ireland a half-dozen times to study the development of the 
Irish Cooperative Movement. 



VII 

Dr. Frederic C. Howe, Vice-Chairman — Author, attorney, economist. 
Dr. Howe is one of the foremost American authorities in political econ- 
omy. His public career began with the practice of law in Cleveland, Ohio, 
serving in turn as city councillor and state senator. He was appointed 
special United States Commissioner to investigate municipal ownership in 
Great Britain (1905); professor of law at the Cleveland College of Law; 
special lecturer on Taxation at Western Reserve University ; lecturer on 
Municipal Administration and Politics at the University of Wisconsin; 
director of People's Institute, New York (1911-14); Commissioner of 
Immigration of the Port of New York (1914-19) ; director, Conference on 
Democratic Control of Railroads (1919-20) ; and since then he has served 
as executive secretary of the All-American Cooperative Commission. Dr. 
Howe is the author of numerous books on taxation, municipal government, 
and the war. His familiarity with European conditions is derived from 
graduate studies in England and Germany, from frequent trips as investi- 
gator and writer, and recently as an expert on international affairs at- 
tached to the American delegation at the Paris Peace Conference. 

Jane Addams — -Author, lecturer, sociologist. Miss Addams is not only 
America's most distinguished woman sociologist, but one whose interna- 
tional contributions have made her as well known in Europe as at home. 
After graduation from Rockford College. Miss Addams spent several 
years in Europe studying applied sociology and political economy, and 
returned to become head of Hull House, Chicago (1889), which became 
the model for the development of social settlement centers throughout the 
cities of the nation. Among many outstanding public services, Miss 
Addams acted as president of the National Conference of Charities and 
Corrections (1909), and president of the International Congress of 
Women in Switzerland (1919). She is now chairman of the Women's 
Peace Party, the International Committee of Women for Permanent Peace, 
the Women's International League, and a member of the Executive Com- 
mittee of the American Union Against Militarism, and many other reform 
organizations. In recognition of Miss Addams' high public services, the 
honorary degree of LL. D. has been conferred on her by the University of 
Wisconsin and Smith College, and the A. M. degree by Yale University. 
Miss Addams is the author of numerous well-known books on sociology 
and political economy, and is an eminent lecturer on these subjects. 

James H. Maurer — Labor leader, writer, legislator. Mr. Maurer has 
been for many years the president of the Pennsylvania State Federation 
of Labor, which has become under his guidance one of the most progres- 
sive labor organizations in America. He is a well-known authority on 
workmen's compensation, workers' education, cooperation, and other labor 
problems. He is a member of the Executive Board of Labor Age, and 
serves as director for many other organizations striving for the betterment 
of the working classes. Mr. Maurer represented the Reading district for 
a number of terms in the Pennsylvania State Legislature. 

Major Oliver P. Newman — Journalist, lecturer, sociologist. Major 
Newman was born and reared in the Middle West, where he received his 
education until his appointment to the National Alilitary Academy at West 
Point. He followed the profession of journalism in the Middle West for 
a number of year, distinguished himself also as an author and short- 
story writer. Major Newman's broad humanitarian interests led him into 
social service work, where he made a substantial contribution to American 
sociology as one of the founders of the Social Unit Organization. He is 
now serving as vice-president of the National Community Board, and is 
well known as a lecturer on social service and political economy. He was 
appointed by President Wilson to the Board of Commissioners, the gov- 
erning body of the District of Columbia, and served as President of the 
Board from 1913 to 1917, resigning to take up the command of a battalion 
of field artillery following America's entrance into the late war. Major 
Newman served ten months in France, and since his return to civil life 
has continued in the profession of journalism at the national capital. 



VIII 

U. S. Senator George W. Norris — Educator, jurist, statesman. Senator 
Norris began his career as a teacher, was graduated from Valparaiso 
University law school, and admitted to the bar in 1883. After serving 
three terms as prosecuting attorney, he was twice elected district judge of 
the Fourteenth District (1895, 1899), which position he held when nomi- 
nated for Congress (1902). Since that time Senator Norris has continu- 
ously represented the people of Nebraska at Washington, serving in five 
successive Congresses prior to his election to the Senate in 1912, and his 
re-election in 1918. His fairness and fearlessness in public life have won 
him the esteem of the nation. 

Rev. Norman M. Thomas — Minister, lecturer, editor. A graduate of 
Princeton University and Union Theological Seminary. New York, Rev. 
Thomas officiated as associate minister of the Brick Presbyterian Church, 
New York (1910-11); minister of the East Harlem Presbyterian Church 
and director of the American Parish Among Immigrants (1911-18) ; mem- 
ber of the Fellowship of Reconciliation, and editor of The World To- 
mdrrow (1918—). Rev. Thomas is a prominent lecturer on economic 
and political reform, and has rendered conspicuous service since the war 
with a number of reconstruction organizations. 

U. S. Senator David I. Walsh — Senator Walsh's public services in- 
clude membership in the Massachusetts House of Representatives, Lieu- 
tenant-Governor of Massachusetts, and twice Governor of that State (1914, 
1915). He was elected delegate-at-large to the Democratic National Con- 
vention, 1912, 1916, and 1920; delegate-at-large to the Massachusetts 
Constitutional Convention, 1917-1918; elected to the United States Senate, 
1918. Senator Walsh has distinguished himself both in the study and 
practice of law, receiving the Bachelor of Laws degree from Boston Uni- 
versity School of Law in 1897, and subsequently the honorary Doctor of 
Laws degree from Holy Cross College, Notre Dame University, and 
Georgetown University. 

SECRETARIAT 

Dr. William MacDonald, Secretary. 
Harold Kellock, Publicity. 
Albert Coyle, Official Reporter. 



PREFACE 

The publication of the complete evidence submitted to the Amer- 
ican Commission on Conditions in Ireland has been prompted by 
the same motives that brought about the creation of the Commission 
and led it to undertake a thorough inquiry into conditions existent 
in Ireland. The American people have a right to know the truth 
about what is happening in Ireland. That concern is not a matter 
of idle curiosity. We are bound by ties of kinship and race, by a 
common culture and language, to the participants in this struggle. 
Even though we wish, we can not sit unmoved at civil war between 
peoples whose blood tinctures more than half of our population. 
The fact that the relatives and loved ones of our fellow citizens are 
being terrorized, imprisoned without trial, even murdered, and their 
property violently destroyed, brings this conflict home to our very 
door. Even though we would ignore the Irish question, the Irish 
question will not ignore us. 

Apart from these particular considerations, the dictates of hu- 
manity and civilization compel the moral conscience of America to 
take notice of conditions in Ireland. We were moved to enter the 
late war largely as a moral protest against the killing of non- 
combatants, of women and babies, and the needless ravaging of 
homes and destruction of towns. Our boys died in France to pre- 
vent forever the repetition of such atrocities, and to guarantee to 
small nations everywhere the right to a free and democratic govern- 
ment of their own choosing. Persistent reports which continue to 
come to this country indicate that the worst atrocities alleged 
against the German army of occupation in Belgium are being perpe- 
trated on even a more -ruthless scale in Ireland today. For these 
reasons the situation in Ireland, no less than that which existed in 
Belgium, cannot be regarded by any civilized nation as merely a 
domestic affair. It is a matter of grave international concern. And 
because of our intermingling blood and common traditions, it is 
only of less concern to us than it is to the British Empire. 

The evidence secured by the American Commission on Conditions 
in Ireland from first-hand witnesses, from competent English, Irish, 
and American observers, and from the sworn affidavits of the victims 
themselves, is here presented to the public without color or com- 
ment, so that it may judge the issue itself. This evidence is not 
published as propaganda for one side or the other, except in the 
sense that the multiplication table is propaganda, — for the truth is 
always propaganda against ignorance and indifference. Above all. 
it is sent out in a spirit of profound friendship for both the English 
and the Irish people, and the hope, already expressed by some of 

IX 



X 

the best elements in British public life, that the publication of the 
facts secured bv this impartial inquiry will promote a just and early 
peace in Ireland by enabling the moral conscience of America to 
assert itself in support of that large and growing section of English 
opinion which protests against the horror and futility of military 
subjugation as a means of silencing the demands of a people deter- 
mined to be free. 

This volume contains the complete testimony of all witnesses who 
appeared before the Commission, as well as all sworn affidavits and 
other important documents submitted in evidence. It does not con- 
tain the findings of the Commission based on this evidence, which 
are embodied in a separate volume, the Interim Report. For the 
sake of clarity and ease of reading, headings have been inserted to 
indicate the logical division of the testimony into unified sections. 
Otherwise the testimony remains just as it came from the lips of the 
witnesses. Any errors in the spelling of proper names which may 
have occurred are due not to the witnesses, but to the obvious diffi- 
culties incident to the rapid phonetic transcription of unfamiliar 
names and places. Those readers unacquainted with legal testimony 
will find no difficulty in following the questions and answers (repre- 
sented by Q. and A.) by bearing in mind that where no name 
follows the Q., the interrogator is the person who asked the pre- 
ceding question, and that the party answering is alwavs the witness 
unless otherwise noted. 

Since this inquiry was not an official undertaking of the United 
States Government, the witnesses were not sworn, although many of 
them expressed the desire to take a formal oath. Nevertheless, the 
auditors as well as the members of the Commission were impressed 
by the great care and anxiety of the witnesses to be scrupulously 
exact and truthful to the smallest detail. The affidavits and deposi- 
tions submitted in evidence were all duly sworn to before govern- 
ment officials authorized to administer oaths, and. with one excep- 
tion, the original copies of all these documents are in the possession 
of the Commission. 

ALBERT COYLE. 

Washington, D. C, 
Mav 1. 1921. 



ATTEST OF TRANSCRIPT 

District of Columbia, ss.: 

I, Albert Coyle, do hereby certify that I am Official Reporter to the 
American Commission on Conditions in Ireland ; that in said capacity I 
personally attended each and all of the hearings held by said Com- 
mission in the City of Washington, District of Columbia, from November 
18, 1920. to January 21, 1921, inclusive, save and except Session Two of 
the Fifth Hearings, held January 14, 1921 ; that I personally took down in 
shorthand the complete testimony and other proceedings before said Com- 
mission at each and all of the aforesaid hearings; and that the follow- 
ing is a full, true, and correct transcript of the shorthand notes taken by 
me at said hearings, excepting only irrelevant and immaterial remarks 
extraneous to the inquiry. 

I further certify that all affidavits, depositions, signed statements, and 
other documents submitted in evidence to the said Commission by wit- 
nesses and counsel at the aforesaid hearings were given over into my cus- 
tody and keeping; that same were appropriately marked and designated by 
me for purposes of identification ; that I have kept same continuously in 
my care and custody; and that the copies of same reproduced in the fol- 
lowing transcript are true and correct copies of the original documents 
submitted in evidence as aforesaid. 

IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 
t ighth day of May, A. D. 1921. 

(Seal) Albert Coyle. 

District of Columbia, .y.s-.: 

We, Alexander H. Gait and Harry G. Wilbur, do hereby certify that 
we were engaged by the American Commission to Investigate Conditions 
in Ireland, on January 14, 1921, to make a stenographic report of its pro- 
ceedings of that day at the Hotel LaFayette in Washington, D. C. ; that 
we made such report and that the transcript is a true and accurate record 
to the best of our knowledge and belief, and was duly verified by the wit- 
nesses after having been reduced to typewriting. 

Alexander H. Galt. 
Harry G. Wilbur. 

Sworn to and subscribed before me this 8th day of May, 1921. 

(Seal) Joseph M. Tighe, 

Notary Public for District of Columbia. 

My Commission expires April. 1923. 



XI 



CONTENTS 

PAGE 

The Committee of One Hundred Fifty on Conditions in Ireland Ill 

Personnel of the Commission on Conditions in Ireland VI 

P re face IX 

Attest of Transcript XI 

Index of Witnesses : 

Irish citizens indicated by (I) 

British citizens indicated by (B) 

American citizens indicated by (A) 

FIRST HEARING 

Session One — November 18, 1920 

Denis Alorgan (I) 6 

Chairman of the Urban Council of Thurlcs 
Rev. Michael M. English (A) 53 

Whitehall, Montana 
John F. Martin (A) 69 

Attorney, Green Bay, Wisconsin 
Rev. James H. Cotter (A) 75 

Clergyman and Editor, Ironton, Ohio 

Session Two — November 19, 1920 

John Derham ( I ) 92 

Town Councillor of Balbriqqan 
Mrs. Agnes B. King (A) ' 120 

Ironton, Ohio 
Francis- Hackett (A) 137 

Associate Editor, "The New Republic," New York City; inves- 
tigated conditions in Ireland for the New York "World" 
Signe Toksvig ( Mrs. Hackett) (A) 174 

Associate Editor, "The New Republic," New York City 

SECOND HEARING 

Session One — December 8, 1920 

Miss Mary MacSwiney (I) 183 

Sister of the late Lord Mayor of Cork 

Session Two — December 9, 1920 

Mrs. Muriel MacSwiney (I) 265 

Widow of the late Lord Mayor of Cork 
Miss Mary MacSwiney 303 

Session Three — December 10, 1920 

Miss Marv MacSwiney 343 

P. J. Guilfoil (A) 366 

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 
Daniel Francis Crowley (I). 376 

Member of Royal Irish Constabulary from November, 1914. 
to June, 1920 
John Tangney (I) 390 

Member of R. I. C, October, 1915, to July, 1920 
Mrs. Anna Murphey (I) 402 

New York City. (Husband an Irish citizen ) 
John Joseph Caddan (I) 407 

Member of R. I. C, Ecbruary to A'ovember, 1920 
Daniel Galvin ( I ) 421 

Member of R. I. C, October, 1907, to July, 1920 

XII 



XIII 

THIRD HEARING 

Session One — December 15, 1920 

Miss Ruth Russell (A) ;•.■••••. :■■•■ 428 

Chicago. Investigated conditions in Ireland for the Chicago 
"Daily News" 

Hon. Laurence Ginn'ell (I) 462 

Former Member of British Parliament ; Member of Dail 
Eireann and of the Irish Republican Cabinet 

Session Tito — December 16, 1920 

Miss Nellie Craven (A) 506 

Washington, D. C. Cousin of Michael Walsh, murdered Coun- 
cillor of Galway, Ireland 

Paul J. Furnas (A) .' 517 

New York City. Member of the Society of Friends 

FOURTH HEARING 

Session One — December 21, 1920 

Mrs. Annot Erskine Robinson ( B ) 530 

Manchester, England. Representative of British Branch, 
Women's International League 

Miss Ellen C. Wilkinson (B) 578 

Manchester, England. Representative of British Branch, 
Women's International League 

Session Two — December 22, 1920 

Miss Susanna Walsh (I) 627 

Sister-in-law of Aid. Thomas MacCurtain, late Lord Mayor 
of Cork 

Miss Anna Walsh (I) 653 

Sister-in-lan.: of Aid. Thomas MacCurtain, late Lord Mayor 
of Cork 

Daniel J. Broderick (A) 664 

Chicago, Illinois 

Session Three — December 23, 1920 

Mrs. Michael Mohan (A) 684 

Corona. New York 
John Charles Clarke (A) 699 

Corona, New )'ork 

FIFTH HEARING 

Session One — January 13, 1921 

Hon. Donal O'Callaghan (I) 718 

Lord Mayor of Cork 

Session Two — January 14, 1921 

Lord Mayor Donal O'Callaghan 798 

Thomas Nolan (I) 852 

Merchant, Galway 
Emil Pezolt (A) . . 869 

Oakland, California. Junior Engineer on U. S. S. "West 
Cannon" 
Henry Turk (A) . 879 

San Francisco. Messman on U. S. "West Cannon" 
Harold Johnson ( A ) 882 

Bucks County. Pennsylvania. Sailor on l ; . S. S. "West Cannon" 



XIV 

Ralph Taylor (A) 886 

Scott Township , Pennsylvania, Messman on U. S. S. "West 
Cannon" 

Peter J. MacSwiney (A) 889 

New York City. Brother of the late Lord Mayor of Cork 



SIXTH HEARING 

Session One — January 19, 1921 

Frank Dempsey (I) 893 

Chairman of the Urban Council of Mallow 
J. L. Fawsitt (I) 935 

Consul-General of the Irish Republic, New York City 

Session Two — January 21, 1921 

Miss Louie Bennett ( I ) 979 

Dublin. Secretary of Irish Branch, Women's International 
League 

Miss Caroline Townshend (I) 1015 

Bandon, County Cork. Officer of the Gaelic League 

Exhibit I. Memorandum on English Armed Aggression against the 

Irish People, Resulting in the Killing of Policemen 1053 

Exhibit II. Memorandum on British Atrocities in Ireland, 1910 

through 1920 1059 

Exhibit III. Terrorism in Tuam 1060 

Exhibit IV. Official Falsehood to Conceal Murder: Case of Connor 

Clune 1064 

Subject Index 1069 



CORRIGENDA 

Page 167, line 33 : for 1098 read 1908. 

Page 205, line 19, and page 206, line 25 : for Sid read Sir. 

Page 336, line 16: for co-called read so-called. 

Page 417, line 30: for Roddy read Ruddy. 

Page 564, line 4: read And impropriety read A)iy impropriety. 

Page 635, line 30: for Maura read Maun. 

Page 900. for line 41 read : / Iiappened to be in Tralee at the time. On the 

first time they came . 

Page 908, line 12 : for Police read Military. 



EVIDENCE 

ON CONDITIONS IN 

IRELAND 



^COMMISSIONERS 



EVIDENCE 

ON CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Presented to the 
American Commission of Inquiry on Conditions 

in Ireland 

Jane Addams 
James H. Maurer 
David I. Walsh 

L. HOLLINGSWORTH WOOD 

Frederic C. Howe 

Acting Chairman 1 

FIRST HEARINGS 
Session One 

Before the Commission, sitting at the Hotel Lafayette, Washing- 
ton, D. C, November 18, 1920. 

Session called to order by Chairman Howe at 10:22 a. m. 

ORIGIN OF THE COMMISSION 

Chairman Howe: This is the first session of the hearings of the 
American Commission on Ireland. The American Commission on 
Ireland was conceived of and started by the New York Nation in 
September last as a result of the growing body of public opinion 
in this country that was seriously concerned over conditions in 
Ireland. Something like one hundred fifty people, representing 
all phases of thought, selected from various professions, mostly 
persons who had been identified with public-spirited enterprises in 
this country, were associated into this Committee of One Hundred 
Fifty, which was the body from which this Commission has sprung, 
— elected by this larger Committee. A complete list of the one 

1 The Commission at its first sitting elected Hon. Joseph W. Folk, 
former Governor of Missouri, as Chairman, and Dr. Frederic C. Howe 
as Vice-Chairman. Because Mr. Folk felt that his legal relations with 
the Egyptian Nationalists might embarrass the Commission, he resigned, 
and Dr. Howe served as Acting Chairman until the addition to the Com- 
mission of Major Newman, Mr. Thomas, and Mr. Wood, the latter being 
then elected Chairman of the Commission. 



hundred fifty was sent to all those so selected, and they in turn 
were asked to vote from out of that larger list for a smaller Com- 
mission to hear testimony. It was in the nature of a referendum 
vote. The votes as they came in were tabulated, and this Commis- 
sion came into existence in that way. Tt was picked by one hundred 
fifty people. 

The Commission immediately got into communication with the 
British Embassy in Washington; with Mr. de Valera; it cabled to 
England and cabled to Ireland to secure witnesses who might appear 
before the Commission and give testimony. A number of those 
witnesses are here today. 

MOTIVE AND PURPOSE OF THE COMMISSION 

The motives which called this Commission into existence, and its 
purposes as formulated by the Commission, are as follows: 

The American Commission on Ireland, which now opens its first 
hearings, was elected by referendum vote from a larger committee 
of one hundred fifty eminent Americans organized through the 
efforts of the New York Nation. Conditions in Ireland have pro- 
foundly stirred millions of American citizens of Irish descent. They 
have created and are creating a widening rift in the friendly rela- 
tions of English-speaking peoples, not only in America but all over 
the world. No person who shares our common blood and language 
can view unmoved the existence of civil war, the killing of human 
beings, and the substitution of martial rule for the civil state in 
any part of the English-speaking world. As a people we have 
been trained by centuries to a belief in orderly civic processes. 
Only in direst necessity can there be justification of a resort to 
arms for the adjustment of disputes which it has been our custom 
and our pride to adjust by reasoned and amicable means. 

What the world most needs is peace. It needs an ending of hate. 
Discussion should resume its ascendancy and reason should displace 
the employment of force. The orgy of destruction which is now 
ravaging Ireland is sending its repercussions to every corner of the 
civilized world. It cannot fail to postpone indefinitely the return 
of ordered tranquillity to civilization. In addition to all this, the 
political life of America, as well as its orderly social processes, is 
profoundly disturbed by the injection of an internecine war between 
peoples of our own flesh and blood. 



THE COMMISSION TO ASCERTAIN THE FACTS 
ABOUT IRELAND 

Feelings such as these gave birth to this Commission for investi- 
gating into conditions existent in Ireland. The Commission has 
set itself to the task of ascertaining the facts. It plans to learn a>- 
nearly as possible just what the conditions in Ireland are and what 
has brought them about. It plans to conduct a series of public 
hearings in Washington. It will hear witnesses who present them- 
selves representing English and Irish opinion. The Commission 
plans to send a mission to England and Ireland to make an inquiry 
into conditions in the latter country. 1 It will investigate the kill- 
ings and disorders. Quite as important to the permanent adjustment 
of the dispute, it will investigate into the economic conditions in 
Ireland, the extent to which the Irish have developed a self-con- 
tained economic and cultural life, and the extent to which the Irish 
people have evolved their own agencies of self-government during 
the last few years. 

In making these investigations, the Commission has received as- 
surances of cordial cooperation from liberal-minded groups in Eng- 
land, who are also deeply concerned over the state of civil war 
that exists in Ireland. It has received similar assurances from 
British labor groups and from British statesmen, as well as from 
organizations in Ireland. Judging by the expressions that have 
reached the Commission, the creation of this unofficial agency and 
the delegation of this unofficial mission to Ireland have awakened 
a genuine hope that through an impartial inquiry into the facts and 
a disinterested study of conditions, some constructive measures may 
be formulated for ending the chaotic situation that now prevails. 

WITNESSES INVITED TO APPEAR 

In carrying out the purposes of the inquiry, the Commission has 
sent, as I stated, a number of communications to the British Am- 
bassador and to Mr. de Valera.-' Persons representing any phase 
of this subject have been invited to be present this morning. Wit- 
nesses who have been called have been given the privilege of 



1 The Commission selected Major Newman, Mr. Maurer, Rev. Norman 
Thomas, Mr. Arthur Gleason, Dean Robert Morss Lovett, and Dr. Wil- 
liam MacDonald as members of this mission. Passports were duly granted 
to them by the U. S. Department of State, but the British Embassy at 
Washington refused to vise their passports, and effectively blocked this 
effort to make a first-hand investigation of conditions in Ireland. For 
correspondence, see Appendix A of Commission's report. 

- See Appendix A of Commission's interim report. 



selecting counsel, and the Commission is solicitous that all interests 
that may be involved should be permitted to make such inquiries 
of the witnesses as are germane to this inquiry. 

The witnesses that have been asked to appear for this day's pro- 
ceedings are as follows: Mr. Denis Morgan, Chairman of the Urban 
Council of Thurles, Ireland; Reverend Father English, of White- 
hall, Montana; Mr. Francis Hackett, of New York City; Miss Signe 
Toksvig, of New York; and Mr. John F. Martin, of Green Bay, 
Wisconsin. I presume that many of these witnesses are here, and 
they will be called in the order named. 

I might say, in order that they may know the nature of these 
proceedings, that we are not a legal body. We have no power to 
subpoena witnesses. We desire only statements of facts. If any 
of the witnesses will indicate that they desire to be examined by 
counsel, we shall be very glad to grant that privilege. We want 
them to feel perfectly free to tell their stories in their own way: 
about the facts, about the background of conditions, about their 
own experiences; so that this Commission, none of whose members 
has been in Ireland for a long time, will get as clear an idea as 
possible of present conditions. 

Is it clear that all of these witnesses have been invited by the 
Commission? Senator Walsh asks me to emphasize that all of 
these witnesses are witnesses of the Commission. They have been 
invited by it. Their expenses from Ireland have been paid by it. 
These hearings are hearings of the Commission. 

Mr. Frank P. Walsh (of counsel) : May I ask if the petition 
which I presented the other day to your Commission, that permis- 
sion be given to the Commission on Irish Independence to be present 
here and be heard, has been acted upon by the Commission of 
Inquiry? 

Chairman Howe: The petition has been received and granted by 
the Commission. All witnesses coming here can have counsel in 
telling their story. 

The first witness, Mr. Denis Morgan, of Thurles, Ireland. 

TESTIMONY OF COUNCILLOR DENIS MORGAN 

Q. What is your official position, if any? 

A. I hold the position of Chairman of the Thurles Urban Coun- 
cil, the governing body of Thurles. 

Q. That is the same as our town councils? 

A. Mr. F. P. Walsh: The same as our town councils. 

Q. Will the witness give his full name? 

A. Mr. Denis Morgan, of Thurles, Ireland. 



Chairman Howe: If you desire, your counsel can conduct your 
testimony. That will be satisfactory. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What kind of a town is Thurles? 

A. The town that I was in in Ireland is a town of about five 
thousand people. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I might say that Mr. Morgan and the other 
witnesses from Ireland have advised with the American Commission 
on Irish Independence. You may make your statement to that 
effect. 

The Witness: As regards to that, I have spoken to Mr. Walsh 
and Mr. Malone for any assistance that I need in hearing my 
evidence. 

Q. Would you like to have them lead you in stating your case? 

A. I would like to have them assist me in points. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I think a good background for it would be to 
give your own length of residence in Thurles. I could ask you some 
questions that I think would start this. 

Q. You are chairman of the town council of Thurles? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What is the population of Thurles? 

A. About five thousand. 

Q. Has it any industries? Is it a manufacturing place? What 
sort of town would you say it" is? 

A. It is a large agricultural center. It isn't an industrial town. 

Q. You say that you are chairman of the town council. Briefly, 
what does that town council consist of and what are its duties? 

A. It is the governing body of the town. There are twelve 
members of them, which are selected by the voters on the principle 
of proportional representation. 

Q. When were you elected chairman of the town council? 

A. On the thirtieth of January of this year. 

Q. Were the members of the town council elected by a vote of 
the people of Thurles? 
A. They were. 

Q. Briefly, who were candidates and what party did you 
represent? 

A. There were three different parties trying to get representa- 
tion on the council. There were the Republican candidates; then 
there was the Labor Party and the Independent Party. 

Q. Is the Independent Party the party that is presumably op- 
posed to Sinn Fein? 

A. Yes, sir. 



8 

Q. So that three parties had candidates in the field. What party 
did you represent? 

A. I was on the Labor Party. 

Q. Are you affiliated with any labor organization in Thurles? 

A. I am. I am a member of the Teachers' Association on the 
Trades Council. 

Q. It might be apropos at this time to state what your business 
\s as in Thurles and what you have done there. 

A. I have been there for the past twelve years and have carried 
on the occupation of teaching at the Christian Brothers' School and 
the Diocesan College. 

Q. What branches do you teach? 

A. English, Irish, and mathematics. 

Q. How many students in the Diocesan College? 

A. One hundred and twenty students. 

Q. In the secondary school? 

A. In the secondary school up to one hundred students. 

Q. That has been your vocation while you have been in Thurles? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Are you single or married? 

A. I am married. 

Q. If you would, state the situation of the election of last 
January. 

A. The election took place on January fifteenth. I was one of 
those elected. There were five Labor men, four Sinn Fein, and three 
Independents. The results of the poll were declared on January 
sixteenth. 

RELIGIOUS HARMONY IN THURLES 

Q. I am going to ask you a little more about Thurles before 
you get to the actual occurrences. Are there churches in Thurles? 

A. Yes, sir. There are very fine churches there — a cathedral 
and an archbishopric. 

Q. Is there a Protestant church as well? 

A. Yes, sir. It is known as Saint Mary's Church. Canon Wilson 
is there. 

Q. Is there a Protestant population in Thurles? 

A. Yes, sir; quite small. 

Q. How about the surrounding country? 

A. In the surrounding country there are a few more Protestants. 

Q. Do the members of the surrounding country worship in 
Thurles? 



9 

A. They do. 

Q. And the cemetery — ? 

A. The cemetery of all of Thurles is here in the grounds of the 
Protestant Church, Saint Mary's Church. The Catholics are in- 
terred there. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How about the business 'population? Do 
non-Catholics carry on trading with Catholics? 

A. Yes, sir. I know of a woman, a non-Catholic, who carries 
on the largest trade in town. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Just a word. Has there been a conflict be- 
tween the people of Thurles at any time since you have been there 
based on religious prejudices or religious differences between the 
population? 

A. Quite the contrary. There have always been the most 
friendly relations between the peoples of all religions in Thurles. 
In fact, the chairman of the Urban Council, who had been the whole 
time president for the past twenty-five years, was a Protestant. 

ABSENCE OF CRIME IN THURLES 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: As to the character of the people of 
Thurles: is it a lawabiding place? 

A. Very. 

Q. You say it is a city of five thousand inhabitants? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. During the twelve years of your residence, has there ever 
been a murder trial there? 

A. None. 

Q. Has there ever been a case of assault to commit murder? 

A. No. 

Q. Has there ever been a burglary? 

A. If you mean a petty larceny — 

Q. No, a serious breaking in — 

A. No, I think not. 

Q. Has there been, in the entire time that you were there, a case 
of forgery, rape, embezzlement, or any of the major felonies? 

A. No, not to my knowledge. 

Q. Have there been courts in Thurles? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Please describe, up to the time that I understand what had 
been the regular government courts were abandoned, what sort of 
courts you had and how they were operated? 

A. We have what are known as petty sessions courts, sitting 



10 

about once a week, presided over by one of the R. M.'s — the resident 
magistrates. 

Q. What is the character of these magistrates? 

A. The R. M.'s are appointed by the Government. 

Q. Did the resident magistrate who presided over the Thurles 
court live in Thurles? 

A. He did. We have certain gentlemen who get the position of 
justice of the peace. They are allowed to sit on the bench also. 
If the resident magistrate is not present, then the senior member 
of the justices of the peace can take his place. 

Q. Please state to the Commission the general character of the 
litigation that takes place in these courts. 

A. At these weekly petty sessions the general matter is of such 
nature as stray animals on the road, or a man going home at night 
without a light on his car, or a certain man going home that had 
been imbibing during the day too freely. 

Q. What was the nature of the punishments in these courts? 

A. There would be a fine of, say, five shillings imposed. Or, 
if a man had trouble with a neighbor, he might be bound to keep 
the peace. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Who appoints these justices of the peace? 

A. Dublin Castle, the representative of the English Government 
in Ireland. 

Q. Then they are Government officials? 

A. They are. 

MILITARY OCCUPATION OF THURLES 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Are there military barracks in Thurles? 

A. There had not been up to the last two years. The hospital 
we had there was commandeered by the military and has been fitted 
up by them as the military barracks. 

Q. Prior to that time what was the method of policing Thurles? 

A. There were fifteen or twenty police under the district 
inspector. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Who appointed them? 

A. They are Government appointees. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: I wish that in your own way you would 
state to the Commission the constitution of the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary; whether or not they are residents of the district in which 
they operate; the character of the arms used by them; and a resume 
of the entire organization of the Royal Irish Constabulary. 

A. The system as regards appointing the men to a place is that 



11 

the native of the county where the police are is never appointed 
to that county. If a Tipperary man joins the police force, he will 
be sent to any county outside of Tipperary. So that you have no 
such thing in Ireland, even prior to 1910, as a local police ap- 
pointed by any power in that community. They all came from 
some other place. 

Q. Did the Town Council have any authority over the police? 

A. None whatever. 

Q. So that the administration of justice and the preservation of 
peace and order was entirely under the control of the British 
Government? 

A. Yes, sir. If a constable of the county married a girl in that 
county, he was immediately removed from that county. 

Q. He was removed? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How do these constables patrol now? 

A. They go in lots of eight, each man carrying a carbine, the 
man on the right with a rifle and the man on the left with a shot- 
gun. They carry revolvers in their belts. 

Q. Where are they located at the present time? 

A. In the barracks, which is at one end of the town. 

Q. Describe what implements of warfare they have. 

A. They are served out hand grenades and rifles and shotguns 
and also revolvers. 

Q. Do they have machine guns? 

A. Yes, sir. They always have machine guns in the barracks. 
All the barracks are sandbagged. 

Q. Do they have materials for barricades? 

A. Yes, sir. They have barbed wire and the like. 

COUNCIL ELECTED UNDER ENGLISH LAW FAVORS 
IRISH INDEPENDENCE 

Q. Unless there is some other background in regard to the 
situation you desire to state, I wish you would describe the election. 
Was it an orderly election? 

A. Perfectly orderly. 

Q. Prior to that time, had you had any trouble at your elections, 
or were they always orderly? 

A. Yes, sir, always orderly. 

Q. They were carried on in good temper by the people? 

A. Yes, sir; always. 

Q. Relate what incidents in regard to the situation you think 



12 

would be interesting to the Commission, in regard to the political 
organization. Suggest the method, or begin with your own election 
and the constitution of your council and the conduct of your 
business. 

A. As I stated before, the election took place on the fifteenth 
of January and the polls were declared on the sixteenth. There 
were five Labor members, 1 four Republicans, and three independents 
elected. 

Q. How were they elected? 

A. All elected on the proportional representation system. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That does not mean that these Labor people 
got the largest vote necessarily. It means that under the system 
of proportional representation each party had to have a certain 
number of members on the council ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Does that system prevail all over Ireland? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q: All town councils and urban councils and county councils 
use the proportional representation system? 

A. Yes, sir. The poor-law guardians are also elected in the 
same way. 

Q. You stated that a non-Catholic citizen had been chairman of 
the council for the last twenty-five years? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What proportion of the electorate was Catholic and what 
non-Catholic during those"' years ? 

A. The non-Catholic amounted to about twelve. 

Q. Twelve per cent? 

A. No, twelve persons. 

Q. During the twenty-five years that a non-Catholic was presi- 
dent of the town council? 

A. Yes, sir. The same gentleman carried on one of the largest 
businesses in the town. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now, go ahead with the organization of 
the council. 

A. The first meeting of the council was fixed for the thirtieth of 
January in order to appoint a chairman. 

Q. Were you acting under the English statutes or under the 
statutes of the Irish Republic? 

A. We were acting under the rules for elections laid down by 
the Local Government Board. 

1 The Irish Labor party is officially committed to frish independence', and 
on national issues is allied with the Republicans. 



13 

Q. What is the Local Government Board? 

A. The Local Government Board is a system brought in by the 
English Government for extending to the Irish people more freedom 
in their own affairs. It has been in force for many years. 

Q. So that the Local Government Board could arrange the elec- 
tion under the proportional representation principle? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And it was under that Board that you elected these officers? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And the Local Government Board were officials appointed by 
the British Government? 

A. Yes, sir. In fact, that proportional representation law was 
passed in the House of Commons. 

Q. And this election was held under laws and machinery that 
had been existing in Ireland for many years? 

A. Yes, sir. 

ARRESTED WITHOUT A CHARGE 

Q. Now, about the election of a chairman? 

A. The election of a chairman was fixed for the thirtieth of 
January, fifteen days after the polls were declared. At that meet- 
ing a chairman was to be elected by majority vote of the council. 
On the night it was to take place, just as I was going to the meeting. 
I was arrested. 

Q. Where were you arrested? 

A. In my own home. 

Q. By whom? 

A. By the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary. 1 

G\ How many? 

A. Eight armed men. 

Q. Describe just what took place, what hour it was, and how 
they approached you and your family. 

A. It was just about the hour of six-thirty in the evening. The 
meeting was fixed for seven. I remember it well. I heard a knock 
at the door, and as I opened it a hand was placed on my shoulder. 
A member of the Royal Irish Constabulary said, "I arrest you." I 
said, "On what charge?" He said, "On the orders of His Majesty's 
Government." 

Q. Did he read a paper, any paper? 



1 The Royal Irish Constabulary is the Imperial British police force in 
Ireland. See index. 



14 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Describe your own home and the members of your family 
who live there. You live there with a wife and two children? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The ages of the boys? 
A. One five years and the other was two. 

HOME ''SHOT UP" AND FAMILY TERRORIZED 

Q. Were your wife and children in good health at that time? 

A. Yes, sir. The child of five years was very healthy. My wife 
was approaching her confinement. On the twentieth of January, 
before the arrest took place, about eleven ten, my wife was in bed 
and my boy of five years was in the cot. I had put out the light 
and had got ready to go to bed when I heard shooting going on in 
the town. My house is about five hundred yards from the Royal 
Irish Constabulary barracks. It is on one of the corners of the 
street facing up toward the town. The town contains a large square 
— Liberty Square, they call it. 

Q. What had been the name of it prior to this? 

A. It was known as the Main Street, but it was changed by the 
new council, which changed most of the names of the streets. 

Mr. Walsh: Proceed. 

The Witness: On the side of the house facing toward this Liberty 
Square there are seven windows. All the rooms are exposed toward 
it. On the front there are six windows looking out into the street. 
When I heard the shooting first I thought it was only isolated shots, 
and then I heard heavy Volleys. So I said to my wife, "We must 
get out of this room immediately. If there are any stray shots, we 
shall be in danger." We hastily got out of bed and got down to 
a lower basement where it was fairly good protection from the 
side and also from the front, because we were in the back. I went 
back and got the youngster out of his cot. I had to go on all fours 
lest a bullet should come in. I dragged him down and had to go 
back for some clothes to cover us. All that time the firing was 
going on heavily. And it got nearer and nearer. 

Q. Had any of the bullets struck your place? 

A. Not up to that time. Just as I got inside the basement with 
the clothes I heard bullets hitting the house. There was a door 
there facing the street. The bullets came in through the hall and 
swished by the door where we were standing. We heard the glass 
going and the plaster falling off the ceiling. 

Q. The glass of your own house? 



15 

A. Yes, sir. I placed my wife and the little boy flat on the 
floor. We tried to protect ourselves as well as we could. It was a 
miserably cold night. My wife, in her condition, being within 
two weeks of her confinement, was in a terror-stricken state. We 
lay there. The firing continued. The heavy volley we heard out- 
side seemed to pierce every window in the house. Then the firing 
moved back to town again. It lasted altogether for about an hour, 
and it stopped. We remained in the same position, anxious to know 
if it would break out any more. In half an hour's time it started 
again, but on the second occasion it did not last so long. Only about 
ten minutes. We could not 'stir from the position we were in 
because we did not know at what moment it would break out again. 
So that we had to lie on the stone floor all night. 

THE TOWN "SHOT UP" BY GUARDIANS OF THE 

LAW 

Q. Did you go out in the morning to make an examination of 
the city? 

A. Yes, sir. There was a crowd outside my house looking up 
at the front of it and wanting to know if we were all alive. I 
examined the front there, and every window in the house had been 
pierced by bullets. Some struck the doors. I counted twenty-one 
of them. Inside the rooms the ceilings were all torn and the wood- 
work was all shattered. There was debris lying on the floor and 
all around. I proceeded up town to see who had been killed, and 
the whole street was littered with plate glass shattered by shots 
along the side of the large square — both by breaking and by rifle 
shots. The newspaper office, to which I proceeded, had been shat- 
tered by hand grenades. Just inside the window you could see the 
large holes in the floor where they bursted. In several shops the 
glass was completely broken. 

Q. Could you see who carried on this firing? 

A. I did not attempt to put out my head. 

Q. All you know about it was what you ascertained the next 
morning? 

A. Yes. The statements made by the inhabitants were that the 
Royal Irish Constabulary had come out of the barracks and had 
gone down the street, and were acting under orders. Several people 
told me they had orders given to them. 

Q. Were there any soldiers employed in addition to the Royal 
Irish Constabulary? 

A. There were. 



If) 

Q. Who was the District Inspector? 

A. District Inspector Golden. 

Q. He was in charge of the military proper? 

A. No, sir; I could not tell you that. 

Q. That was on the fifteenth? 

A. On the twentieth— the night of the twentieth and the morning 
of the twenty-first. 

Q. And your election came on the thirtieth? 

A. Yes. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: It would be well to carry this on chronologi- 
cally. 

Q. Senator Walsh: The election was on the fifteenth? 

A. Yes. 

Q. But the election of the chairman was on the thirtieth? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The chairman is elected at the first statutory meeting of the 
council, is he? 

A. Yes, sir; at the first statutory meeting. 

REPRISALS INFLICTED ON INNOCENT TOWNS- 
PEOPLE 

Q. Chairman Howe: Prior to January twentieth and those dis- 
turbances that you have described, were there any actions on the 
part of the people of that town of a lawless character, or any dis- 
turbances of the peace, or anything that would appear to be a 
justification for an attack on that town? 

A. In the morning I ascertained that a member of the Royal 
Irish Constabulary had been shot the evening previous. 

Q. Where was he shot? 

A. Back of the main square, this Liberty Square. 

Q. Do you know by whom he was shot? 

A. Oh, no. 

Q. But the night before there had been a member of the Con- 
stabulary shot? 

A. Yes, sir. That was what I heard the next morning. 

Q. And the attack was made following the shooting of one of 
the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was there a row, an open fight, over the killing of this 
member of the Constabulary? 

A. Oh, no. 

Q. Was there any disturbance of any kind? 



17 

A. No, sir. In the country towns people are not out late like 
in the large cities. By half after ten the houses are all closed and 
the people in bed. You would not meet anyone in the streets. By 
half after eleven the town was perfectly quiet — no one on the 
streets. 

Q. Were there any other disturbances of any kind or any assem- 
blies or gatherings of a lawless character previous to these two 
events? 

A. Oh, no. 

Q. So that after the shooting of a member of the Royal Irish 
Constabulary, the next night following this shooting up of the town 
was done? 

A. The same night. It all occurred on the same night. 

Q. You learned the next morning that it all occurred on the 
same night? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What area of the town was covered by this shooting? 

A. The area was directly along the main thoroughfare. 

Q. About a mile? 

A. A mile and a half. 

Q. Was every house attacked along that thoroughfare? 

A. No, only certain houses were attacked. 

Q. Senator Walsh: About how many in number? 

A. To the number of ten, I would say. 

REPRISALS PENALIZE POLITICAL OPINIONS 

Q. Were there any business houses attacked? 

A. Yes, sir. Most of them were business houses. A man with 
a large trading establishment had the front windows shot out and 
bullets through the upper rooms. Two licensed premises on the 
opposite side of the street had the same — plate-glass windows shat- 
tered. Two private residences — mine and another member of the 
Urban Council — shot up. I may mention that of the members of 
the Urban Council, there were four members whose houses were 
attacked on that night — four newly elected members. 

Q. Was it appparent that these houses were picked out because 
of the political opinions of the owners? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was known to be the political opinion of the members 
of the Council whose houses were attacked? 

A. They were all known to be associated with the movement for 
national independence. 



18 

Q. And they were all among the local leaders of the movement? 

A. Yes. 

Q. So it was apparent that they picked out those who were 
associated with this movement? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You spoke that a member of the Irish 
Constabulary was shot. Is that merely hearsay, or do you know 
definitely that a member was shot? 

A. Yes, sir; we knew afterwards that there was. 

Q. You knew afterwards? 

A. Yes, sir. He was shot about an hour previous to that time. 

Q. You are satisfied that one was shot? 

A. Oh, yes. There was a funeral afterwards. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Were these Labor members who were elected 
to the Council in favor of a republican form of government for 
Ireland? 

A. Yes, all of them. 

Q. How many were in favor of a republican form of gov- 
ernment? 

A. Nine. 

Q. They were unanimous? 

A. No; nine out of twelve. But one of the independent men, 
who was in opposition to a republic, is now in favor of it. 

Q. Where is the town of Thurles? 

A. In the heart of Ireland, in Tipperary. 

Q. Is it a seaport town? 

A. No; well inland. 

Q. In what province? 

A. Province of Munster. 

Chairman Howe: That takes us to the approaching election of the 
chairman of the Town Council and his arrest. 

ENGLISH LABOR COMMISSION FIND THURLES 
WORSE THAN FLANDERS 

The Witness: Previous to that let me state that the morning after 
the shooting we had a visit from the members of the English Labor 
Party, who were sent over to Ireland to look into affairs. It hap- 
pened that they came along at twelve o'clock of that day and passed 
through the town on their way to the hotel from the station. They 
saw the damage and issued a statement that evening. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Who were the members of this mission? 



19 

A. Mr. Arthur Henderson, Mr. Adamson, and several others. 

Q. Have you their statement? 

A. I did not bring it with me. I did not know whether it would 
be permitted to bring papers with me. 

Q. What was the nature of that statement? 

A. They said that they had been in Flanders, and the scene they 
saw in Thurles that day was worse than anything they had seen 
in Flanders. 

Q. What was the effect of this on the people in your own home? 

A. My wife suffered a nervous breakdown. 

Q. And the child? 

A. The little boy was very frightened. He was in a very nervous 
state as a result. 

ANONYMOUS THREAT PRECEDES ARREST WITH- 
OUT CHARGE 

Q. And your arrest? 

A. On January twenty-third I happened to be investigating one 
of the houses that had been shot up. I was talking to the man at 
the door when eight members of the Irish Constabulary came along 
and asked me what I was doing on the streets after six in the 
evening. I told them that I was talking to this man. They said I 
had no business to be on the streets. 

Q. Were you then a member of the town council? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You were elected on the fifteenth. Had you yet taken the 
oath of office? When did you officially become a member? 

A. On the date of the election, the fifteenth. 

Q. So at the time these eight officers intercepted you, you were 
performing a duty of an officer of the town? 

A. Yes, sir. I was ordered to proceed home. I met my wife 
and child coming up the street. She asked me to come back to one 
of the shops. They came along after me. We crossed the square 
and they followed us and remained outside. I said to my wife 
that we had better go home. And they followed us until I got inside 
my own house, and then they departed. 

Q. Were there any disturbances at that time? 

A. Oh, no. All the disturbance was over. That was two days 
after the shooting. 

Q. Were you not allowed on the streets at night? Was that a 
continuous order of the authorities? 

A. It was no order at all. Everybody was doing their business 



20 

on the streets. I was accosted because I \\a> talking to this man 
at the door. 

Q. Were you ever on the town council before? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. But you were a school teacher in the town for twelve years? 

A. Yes. On the morning of the twenty-fourth I received a letter 
in a disguised handwriting saying: "You will depart this life if 
you do not leave this town within twenty-four hours," signed 
"Vengeance." I received that on Saturday morning, the twenty- 
fourth, I think it was. I did not pay any attention to the letter. 
Things kept on quietly for the next week. 

Q. You have no knowlege of the authenticity of that letter? 

A. No, sir; no direct knowledge. But I have a very good idea 
of where it came from. On the thirtieth this meeting of the council 
was to take place, the statutory meeting at which the chairman was 
to be elected. I was arrested, as I said. I asked the charge. They 
said there was no charge; only Government orders. I was marched 
up to the town surrounded on both sides by the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary. I was marched away up to the other end of the town to 
the police barracks. I was brought inside and all the contents of 
my pockets turned inside out. This threatening letter I got on the 
Saturday previous was among the letters I had in my pockets. All 
these documents were taken away after being gone through by the 
police. I afterwards received them all back with the exception of 
the threatening letter. I never received that threatening letter back. 
I was left about an hour in the cell in the police barracks, and 
then I was taken to Templemore, about seven miles from our place, 
to the large military barracks there. We were surrounded by armed 
soldiers in motor lorries. 

THREE LEGALLY ELECTED TOWN COUNCILLORS 
ARRESTED AND DEPORTED 

Q. How many prisoners? 

A. There was Mr.Tulane, another member of the Urban Council. 

Q. What is his business? 

A. He carries on a large business as a seller of hides. 

Q. What party was he elected on? 

A. He was elected on the Republican Party. And then there 
was a Labor member. He was organizer for the Thurles Irish 
Transport Workers' Union. 

Q. What was his name? 

A. Eamon Hayes. And then another chap named Eustice. 



21 

Q. What parties did these two others belong to? 

A. The organizer was a Labor man and the other chap was a 
Republican. 

Q. The whole four were in favor ol a Republic? 

A. Yes. We were handcuffed in pairs, placed in motor lorries, 
and taken to Tempi emore and thrown into cells there. At midnight 
we were taken out by armed soldiers, handcuffed all the time in 
pairs, and proceeded to Limerick, which we reached about three 
o'clock in the morning. 

Q. How far is Limerick? 

A. About forty miles. We were handcuffed there until about 
eight in the morning. We were then put in motor lorries, again 
handcuffed, and carried to Cork jail, which we reached about eight 
in the evening. We were put into cells there. The second of 
February we reached Cork. On the fourth of Februarv I got a 
telegram announcing the birth of the son. 

Q. You got a telegram on the fourth of February? 

A. On the fourth of February. 

Q. And you were arrested when? 

A. On the thirtieth of January. 

Q. That was the first word you had received from home? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How 7 did they know where you were? 

A. There were people who had seen us on the way and it was 
announced in all the papers. 

TREATMENT OF POLITICAL PRISONERS 

Q. Up to this time was there any information given you or any 
other man with you as to the reason why you were arrested, or the 
charge against you? 

A. No. They refused to give us that. In fact, we did not know 
our destination. We were simply taken away. 

Q. Your family or the townspeople were not advised? 

A. Oh, no. Nobody knew 7 . 

Q. Was there any indictment against you? Were you ever tried? 

A. Oh, no, sir. We were taken from Cork on the eighth of 
February at about four-thirty in the morning. We were told to pick 
up. I asked the warden where we were going, and he said he did 
not know. We were lined up in a procession of fourteen motor 
lorries preceded by an armed car. Four prisoners handcuffed in 
pairs were put in each motor lorry, and the car was then filled up 
with armed soldiers wearing helmets and fixed bavonets. 



22 

Q. How many prisoners? 

A. Fifty-five in our batch. We were brought down to Cove, that 
was formerly Queenstown, and we were put on two lighters, two 
tenders, and shipped out into the bay, where there were two war 
sloops waiting for us. We went aboard the first sloop and had to 
cross from the deck of this sloop onto the next sloop. The hand- 
cuffs were not removed. The captain of the second sloop said he 
would not permit any prisoner to pass the gangway of his sloop 
until the handcuffs were removed, because it was too dangerous. 
We were brought across to Milford Haven, where a special train 
was waiting for us, and carried us on to London. As we went 
aboard the war sloop an officer came along and read out a document 
which said that whereas I was an individual who had acted or was 
acting or was about to act in a manner prejudicial to the peace of 
the realm, I was a fit person for deportation. That was the purport 
of the document, but it did not state any charge. 

Q. How long were you handcuffed continuously? 

A. Practically twenty-four hours. 

Q. Handcuffed to the other men? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Where did they put you in the ship? 

A. Down in the hold. Away down in a little square hole just 
large enough for a man's body to go down. 

Q. How many in the hold? 

A. Thirty-five prisoners. 

Q. And ventilation? 

A. No sort at all. 

Q. None otherwise than the hatch? 

A. No, sir. Some of the men were practically lifeless when 
they got across. One of the members of the Royal Irish Constabu- 
lary force came down with us before we started, and he had to be 
carried out in about five minutes. 

Q. The air was foul? 

A. Very foul. 

i 

REFUSED PAROLE TO SEE DYING SON 

I was interned up at Wormwood Scrubbs prison about the second 
of April. There was sickness in my family. If a man interned 
there had one of his relations who were sick, it was the common 
custom that a man would apply for leave to go home, giving his 
parole that he would come back by a certain date. There had been 
about six paroles before this date. Every one had been kept. One 



23 

chap got a telegram that his mother was — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Where did you say you were? 

A. In Wormwood Scrubbs prison. 

Q. Where is this prison located? 

A. In London, in Shepherds' Close district. 

Q. How large is it? 

A. Very large. I think it would hold about two thousand 
prisoners. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Have they workshops in it — make brushes 
and the like? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. It is a combined jail and penitentiary then? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. About paroles? 

A. Oh, yes. This chap got word that his mother was dead in 
Cork. He just had time to ask for leave and to catch the Saturday 
boat, and had to take a motor about forty miles into the country. 
He just got there and met the funeral of his mother. He came back 
in three days, and had previously applied for extension of parole 
and had not got word of it. He reached the prison gate and was 
just talking and shaking hands when he learned that his parole 
was extended, and then he went off again. That was the system. 
Every man got a parole who had reason for it. On the second of 
April I got word that my son was dying. 

Q. Which son was that? 

A. The oldest. I immediately applied for a parole to go home 
because my little boy was dying. No reply came to that applica- 
tion; it wasn't granted. Another telegram came. 

Q. Meantime, had you heard of the condition of your son? 

A. Yes, I got word from my wife that he was still dying. On 
the ninth I got a telegram that the child was dead. I sent in another 
application for parole. He had died on Friday night, and was to 
be buried on Sunday, so that I just had time to get there. I got no 
answer until five-thirty in the evening. Then the warden came along 
and said, "I'm very sorry, I've got this document to read to you." 
The document was that the Irish Government could not see its way 
clear to grant the parole to Mr. Morgan. 

Q. The Irish Government? 

A. Yes, the Irish Government, the government set up at Dublin 
Castle by the English — what we call the Castle. 

Q. The child was buried in your absence? 

A. Yes. I tried to get word through to my wife. I sent her 
word, but she did not get it. The first word she got was from the 



24 

stop press news in the papers. The child was buried the next 
evening in the cemetery of the Protestant church of which I spoke. 

ELECTED CHAIRMAN OF COUNCIL WHILE IN JAIL 

Q. Did the election of the chairman of the council proceed? 

A. Yes, sir. The night I was arrested, while I was still in the 
lockup in the Irish Constabulary barracks, the news reached me 
that the election had taken place and I was elected chairman. There 
were two candidates, myself and Mr. Tulane, who was along with 
me in the cell. 

Q. Was it known that there were two candidates.'' 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was it known before you were arrested that yon were can- 
didates.'' 

A. \es. sir. Everyone knew it. 

Q. So that the two men arrested were known to be the candi- 
dates? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Had it been published in the local press? 

A. In the Star, yes. 

Q. How many votes did you receive from the eleven members 
present? 

A. There were not eleven members present. There were two of 
us in the lockup cell and there were two men on the run. 

Q. You mean by that there were two other members who were 
eluding the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes, sir. They were being looked for. The police went 
down and looked into the meeting and did not find the men they 
wanted and left. 

Q. What was the vote? 

A. Four to three was the vote. 

HUNGER STRIKERS THROWN INTO "PUNISHMENT 

CELL" 

One thing more about while we were in prison. On the twenty- 
fifth of April we put in a demand to the Government that we be 
tried on some charge or other. We demanded to be brought to trial 
or else released. They refused. We got no answer to the demand, 
and we went on hunger strike. We refused to take any food in the 
prison until we were released or tried. Two hundred of us went 
on hunger strike at this time. When some of the men began to get 
exhausted and were collapsing, we asked the governor of the jail 



25 

if he would leave the cell doors open in the night-time so that those 
of us who were not in as bad state as the rest, we could look after 
them. That request was refused, and we broke down the doors that 
night. So we were taken out of the cells where we were and thrown 
into what are called punishment cells. We were three days on 
hunger strike at this time, and were getting pretty weak. These 
punishment cells are in the basement, low down. They had not 
been opened for twenty years, I think. They were very small and 
close and the dust was thick in them. 

Q. What was the size of those cells? 

A. Twelve feet by eight, I suppose. We were left there for four 
days. The conditions were bad there. We were never given any 
water to wash ourselves or anything else. We were left in a filthy 
condition. 

Q. How many days were you in those cells? 

A. Four. I was taken out of the cells in the low basement and 
placed in the very top of the house, up four flights of stairs. We 
could take a little exercise at certain times of the day, walking out 
of the cells and down into the yard and walking back again. I used 
to do this until my legs gave way due to hunger. I was then locked 
up. None of the doors were ever opened after that. The doctor 
came along and asked me to take some medicine, and I said, "No, 
not so long as I am in the prison. As soon as I am out of the prison 
gate, I will take medicine." He tried to force it down my lips, but 
I threw the glass out of his hand. The next day at twelve o'clock 
a man arrived and said to me that an ambulance was waiting outside 
for us. He did not tell us where we were going or anything else. 
They brought us to the ambulance and took us to St. James Hospital. 

Q. What hospital was that? 

A. St. James Hospital, in London, near Wormwood Scrubbs jail. 
We were in the hospital then for about three weeks. We never got 
a thing when we left. I may tell you that upon leaving the jail, 
we were simply taken out of the bed and put into the ambulance. 
We had no clothes. The money we had on us when we were arrested 
was taken at the prison gate. Our watches were also taken. When 
we came out, we got back none of our property or our money. We 
were three weeks in the hospital. 

Q. Did you ever get your money back? 

A. Oh, yes, eventually. Another thing was that if a man was 
released from a prison in England, he had to be sent back to Ireland. 
You got a voucher to bring you back to the place where you were 
arrested. When we came out of the hospital we asked for a voucher 
and for our watches and our money. They were all refused. 



26 

• Q. How, then, did you get back home? 

A. Fortunately some of us had friends in London, so that we 
got some money and got home. We kept applying and applying, 
and finally after six weeks I got my money back. But we were never 
paid for our railway fare. 

THE REPUBLICAN ARBITRATION COURTS 

The result was that I took up my position on the Urban Council 
in June. There was a great assembly called of all the public bodies 
in the county to appoint judges for the Republican system of arbi- 
tration courts. The government courts of Thurles had fallen into 
disuse for about twelve months past. These courts were all practi- 
cally falling into disuse altogether. 

Q. By reason of the fact that the military authorities were assum- 
ing control of all disorders? 

A. No, by reason of the fact that the people were refusing to go 
into these courts. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That means in civil cases. But were not the 
police arresting citizens and bringing them into these other courts? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. These petty offenses of which you spoke, where were they 
tried? 

A. In these petty sessions courts. 

Q. But all the civil cases were not tried there? 

A. No. The weekly sessions fell through. They were not held 
any more because of the fact that there was nothing for them 
to do. The people wouldn't use them. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Are there any lawyers in Thurles? 

A. Oh, yes. We have four lawyers. 

Q. They formerly practiced in these petty courts? 

A. Yes, they did. 

Q. What do they do now? 

A. They go into the Republican courts. 

Q. How about this meeting, this assembly? 

A. We called a meeting of the whole constituency. That is, a 
village area takes up the whole council. We called a meeting of all 
the governing bodies. 

Q. What governing bodies? 

A. The urban council, the district council, the labor bodies, and 
other public bodies. We got them all to send representatives to the 
assembly at Thurles. At that meeting they appointed five judges. 

Q. Who were these judges? 



27 

A. Five citizens — Mr. O'Byrne, Mr. Dwyer, Mr. Leady, Father 
O'Brien, and Mr. Hassett. 

Q. Could you give the businesses of these men? 

A. Yes. Mr. O'Byrne is a barrister, Mr. Dwyer a farmer, Mr. 
Hassett is also a farmer, and Father O'Brien is a local priest. 

WHOLESALE DEPORTATIONS 

Q. Chairman Howe: May I ask the witness? You said there 
were two hundred people in the jail at the time you were. Were 
two hundred men arrested as you were? Where were they from 
and what was the cause of their arrest? 

A. Yes, sir; there were fifty-five deported on the first occasion. 
Every day there were batches coming in from Ireland, just as we 
were, on deportation orders. 

Q. They were under indictment? 

A. No, they were all deported. There was just a deportation 
order. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Who were they signed by? 

A. Mine was signed by Ian MacPherson. Others were signed by 
Viscount French, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. 

Q. Were they all on hunger strike? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did any of them die? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. How long were they on hunger strike? 

A. Some of them were on hunger strike for twenty-four days. 

Q. Were they all released as you were? 

A. Yes. 

POLICEMAN SHOT "BY PERSONS UNKNOWN" 

Q. Chairman Howe: I should like to ask about the killing of 
the policeman in Thurles. That happened the night of your arrest? 

A. It was a few days before that. 

Q. What reason had they to connect that with the leading Re- 
publicans of the town? 

A. You mean why we were shot up on account of the shooting 
of the constable? 

Q. Yes. 

A. I could not say. This is only a theory of mine: they thought 
they would make prominent members of the town suffer for it. 

Q. Did they make any inquiries into the cause of his death? 

A. Oh, there was an inquest. But he did not die on that, night 



28 

of the shooting-up. He died two days after. There was a coroner's 
inquest — a coroner and a jury of twelve men. They found he was 
shot by some persons unknown. 

Q. This took place in the town itself? 

A. In the town itself. 

Q. Do you know of any reason, any enmity or animosity, that 
would lead to his being murdered? 

A. No. 

Q. Was he conspicuous in any work there among the British 
officers that might make his particular actions offensive to the people 
of the village? 

A. Well, you see, I could not really tell you what his duties 
were. In these cases we have no control whatever over the Royal 
Irish Constabulary. We have no control, we know nothing about 
the duties they were performing. 

Q. Did you personally know this particular officer? 

A. I did. 

Q. What was his name? 

A. Constable Finnegan. 

Q. Had he been obnoxious in any way? Had he been over- 
zealous in his duties? 

A. I really could not say. 

Q. At that time had they abandoned the coroner's inquest? 

A. No, not at that time. 

Q. The finding was merely that he was shot down by persons 
unknown. No other finding? 

A. No other finding. 

Q. It was not attributed by the court to anyone? 

A. No. 

Q. What were the circumstances of his shooting? Was he on 
his beat? 

A. I think so. I think he was going home. 

Q. Was he a citizen of that town? 

A. No, he could not be. No constable is ever sent to his home 
town. 

Q. Did he have any quarrel with the neighbors? 

A. I do not know. It could happen, but I do not know about it. 

Q. What was the best information you obtained as to the time 
when the officer was shot? 

A. The time that he was shot was about half aften ten. 

Q. Where was he when he was shot? 

A. He was going toward his own home, 

Q. That was about half past ten? 



29 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long after this policeman was shut did the shooting up 
of the town take place? 

A. About an hour. 

Q. And everybody in town was practically in bed or in his home 
at that time? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You said that there were two hundred men in that particular 
jail under arrest with you. Were there men in other jails? 

A. Oh, there were. In Brixton prison, the scene of the late 
tragedy, there were five more. 

Q. How many all told? 

A. About three hundred all told. 

Q. From different parts of Ireland? 

A. Yes, different parts of Ireland. 

REPUBLICANS WIN NINETY PER CENT. OF TOWN 

COUNCILS 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: The elections to which you referred under 
the Local Government Act which resulted in the return of Labor 
men and Republican men: do you know what the results generally 
were of the elections throughout Ireland at that time? 

A. Oh, yes. There had been a great sweeping at the polls in 
favor of the Republic. 

Q. About what per cent, of the urban councils vvenl Republican? 

A. I would say about ninety per cent. 

Q. All over Ireland? 

A. All over Ireland. 

Q. North as well as south? 

A. Not so much in the north : but if you take the whole of 
Ireland — 

Q. Ninety per cent? 

A. Ninety per cent. 

Q. What per cent of the councilmen were Labor men and what 
per cent. Republicans and what per cent. Unionists? 

A. Our own council is a good case: about five Republicans to 
four Labor men, and three who are for union. 

Q. On the whole, do the men who run as Labor candidates 
adhere to the principle of Republican organization for Ireland? 

A. All of them. 

Q. But they maintain their own party organization? 

A. Yes, sir. 



30 

Q. It is a political party, just like the Labor Party or the 
Liberal Party in England? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. But do the individual members all adhere to the principle 
of a Republican government in Ireland? 

A. All of them. 

Q. When you say that ninety per cent, are Republicans, you 
mean that ninety per cent, of those voting indicated their preference 
for those candidates? But in every council there must be a minority 
of non-Republicans because of the proportional representation 
system. 

A. Yes, sir. Under the old system there would have been no 
minority representation at all. 

Q. Did other arbitration councils organize as yours and proceed 
as you did? 

A. Yes, sir. In the larger cities they have a different method. 
But in the towns and smaller cities they are organized along these 
lines. 

Q. About ninety per cent, of the local agencies are Republican? 

A. Yes, today. 

Q. On the night that they shot up the town, was anyone killed? 

A. No. 

Q. Anyone wounded? 

A. There were some very remarkable escapes, though. 

Q. Just property destroyed? 

A. Property destroyed. For instance, the bed in which I was 
sleeping was struck. Had I not the good sense to get out of the 
bed, I would have been struck. 

Q. Had you any personal knowledge of the facts surrounding 
the killing of this constable, or do you know of any resident of 
Thurles that had such knowledge? 

A. No. 

Q. You do not know whether it was a private feud, or whether 
he was executed? 

A. No, I do not know. 

Q. Direct or indirect, by hearsay or personal knowledge? 

A. No, I could not give you any idea. 

Q. What was the popular sentiment in that town? How did 
the people feel about it? 

A. The people were so terror-stricken and absorbed in their 
own safety that they did not have time to think about anything else. 

Q. Since then it must have been discussed among the neighbors. 

A. Yes, but the people do not know who committed it. 



31 

Q. I do not mean who committed it, but the fact that it occurred. 
How did they feel about such an occurrence in your town? 

A. I could not say. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Do you, Mr. Walsh, wish to continue? 
Is there anything more? 

A. Mr. F. P. Walsh: If you please, yes. 

MURDER OF M'CARTHY, DWYER AND ROONEY 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Has there been any further shooting up of 
the town since you came back? 

A. Oh, yes. While I was in prison it was shot up twice, similar 
to the first time. 

Q. I wish you would detail anything you had knowledge of in 
the immediate vicinity — for instance, in Templemore, the killing 
of the men. Would you detail? 

A. First of all, while I was in jail in March, there was another 
member of the Urban Council named McCarthy who was very 
prominent in demanding an inquiry into the shooting up of the 
town. At the Urban Council he put forward a resolution that some 
inquiry be held as to the importance of the damage done and 
everything else in the shooting up of the town. This chap got a 
letter informing him that if he came up Pryor Street in the direc- 
tion of the barracks they would give him all the information he 
wanted. Naturally he did not move. But there was a sad sequel to 
it. A few nights afterward, after the family was in bed — they live 
off the Liberty Square — the family was in bed about two o'clock in 
the morning. A knocking came at the door, and they asked who 
was there, and they said they were looking for one McCarthy. The 
member of the Urban Council is Michael McCarthy. The brother, 
a lad named James, who never takes part in public life in any way, 
simply a chap who is fond of going around with dogs and sporting, 
he said he would go down and answer the door. As he answered 
the door the men asked him what his name was. Immediately two 
shots were fired, and he fell back dead in the hall. His sister and 
brother came down. The sister said she would go to the priest's, 
and she ran down the street in her bare feet. As she proceeded, 
two shots were fired after her. 

Q. Did they hit her? 

A. No, she luckily escaped. There was a coroner's inquest held 
over him. The verdict of the jury was that he was murdered by 
men dressed in the uniform of the Royal Irish Constabulary. 

The next night, at a place named Ragg, three miles from Thurles, 



32 

there was a chap there named Dwyer. A knock came at the dour, 
and his sister, a married lady, opened the door, and the\ demanded 
her hrother. 

Q. What was his position ? 

A. He was a licensed trader. She said he was upstairs. He 
came down with a candle in his hand. Two shots were fired and he 
fell. A man at the door said, "I think I will finish him." And he 
fired another shot into him. The verdict in that case was, "Wilful 
murder against the memhers of the Royal Irish Constabulary." 

Q. Wilful murder against or by? 

A. Against them. The verdict was against them. 

Q. In other words, the verdict was that this young man's death 
was caused by wilful murder by the members of the Royal Irish 
Constabulary? 

A. Yes. In the case of this chap Dwyer, the members of the 
Royal Irish Constabulary came through in motor lorries about three 
days afterward shouting: "Dwyer is dead and a very good job." 
They came back to the house where this sister, this married girl 
lived, and smashed all the bottles in the house and fired shots 
through the ceiling. The result was that she had to leave the shop 
altogether. The shop was shut up for several weeks. She came 
back after a time and a similar occurrence happened. The shop 
was shot up again. 

There was a case at Holy Cross, about three miles from the old 
abbey of Holy Cross, where a wake was being held. A girl had 
died, and a wake was being held at the house. At a wake in Ireland 
the neighbors assemble and they say the mass for the dead and sit 
up all night with the corpse. At the wake there was a poor old 
simpleton. 

Q. What was his name? 

A. Mr. Rooney. He happened to go out of the corpse house 
about three o'clock in the morning. He was riddled with bullets. 
Shots were also fired through the doors and windows of the corpse 
house. There was another man, the village postman, who was 
brought out and told to look at the body of the dead comrade. He 
expected to be shot too, and he said, "But you know me; you know 
who I am. I am the village postman." They said, "No, we don't 
know who you are." 

Q. Who were "they"? 

A. They were the men who came in lorries. They were not from 
Holy Cross. Finally one of % the men spoke up from the lorry and 
said, "Yes, I know him. He's the postman." The verdict again 
was wilful murder. 



33 

Q. Who returned that verdict'.'' 

A. The coroner's jury of twelve men. 

Q. Who selects those twelve men? 

A. The police; that is, the Royal Irish Constabulary. 

Q. Was that verdict rendered by a jury established by the Re- 
publican government of Ireland, or by the Royal Irish Constabu- 
lary? 

A. By the Royal Irish Constabulary. 

Q. So that the verdict of a jury called and convened by the 
Royal Irish Constabulary pronounced that crime as wilful murder? 

A. Yes, wilful murder committed by the armed forces of the 
Crown. 

Q. What could be the motive and reason for shooting up a house 
where there was a dead body? 

A. 1 was just coming to that. The next morning there was an 
official notice appearing in the papers coming from Dublin Castle. 

Q. Dublin Castle is the representative of the British Government 
in Ireland? 

A. Yes. This report stated that there had been an attack on the 
police barracks in Holy Cross and one of the members had been 
shot dead. 

Q. Had there been an attack on the barracks? 

A. No. None at all. 

Q. And this chap was a poor simpleton? 

A. Yes, just a poor simpleton. 

Q. How old was he? 

A. About sixty years of age. 

Q. Were there any other shots fired or persons killed? 

A. No other persons were killed, but other shots were fired, lots 
of them, through the house. 

Q. What was it that prevented them from killing others in the 
house? Was there any person who intervened? 

A. There was a man who was a cousin of the person who was 
dead. He was an ex-army officer. He came out, and they asked him 
what business he had there. He said he was an ex-army officer — 
he explained who he was. I think his presence saved the other 
men from being shot also. 

Q. Was there other shooting at Holy Cross besides at llie place 
where the dead body lay? 

A. No, but at a place about seven miles away there was an attack 
on a police barracks, but not there. 



34 

WARNING OF IMPENDING MURDERS BY POLICE 

Q. If it will not interrupt your narrative, when was the Lord 
Mayor of Cork killed, Mr. MacCurtain, with reference to your con- 
finement in jail? 

A. He was killed in March. 

Q. And you were then in Wormwood Scrubbs prison? 

A. I was. 

Q. Did you have any advices prior to the death of Mayor Mac- 
Curtain that he was to be killed? Please tell that incident. 

A. On the sixteenth of March there was a prisoner from Ireland 
arrived in Wormwood Scrubbs. I happened to know this man. 
He was Mr. Dwyer, a member of the arbitration court. When he 
came in, I shook hands with him. He was telling me about home 
affairs. He said, "By the way, I heard something coming over on 
the boat, that yourself and Lord Mayor MacCurtain were sentenced 
to be shot by the Royal Irish Constabulary." 

Q. He said that Mayor MacCurtain was to be shot to death by 
the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes, by the Royal Irish Constabulary. 

Q. When was that date? 

A. The sixteenth of March. 

Q. When was his life taken? 

A. He was shot on the twentieth. 

Q. Did you receive any information from any member of the 
English Labor Commission who was present in Thurles the day 
following the first shooting as to what information he had from the 
Royal Irish Constabulary as to their future movements in your 
town? 

A. Yes, I did. I had an interview with the members of that 
Commission, and was talking with Mr. Arthur Henderson. Just as 
he was leaving the town he called me aside and said to me: "Mr. 
Morgan, I want to speak to you a minute. When I arrived at the 
station this morning I was speaking to a member of the Royal Irish 
Constabulary. I said the shooting up of the town was terrible. He 
said, 'Well, they deserved it for shooting one of our men, and it is 
nothing to what we will give them tonight if he dies.' " That was 
Mr. Arthur Henderson of the British Labor Party. 

TEMPLEMORE SHOT UP; TOWN HALL BURNED 

Q. Do you know of any further disturbances in this locality? 

A. Of what nature? 

Q. Violence, disturbances, and shootings. 



35 

A. Oh, yes. Templemore, seven miles from us, was shot up and 
the town hall completely gutted. 

Q. By fire? 

A. By fire, incendiary bombs. 

Q. Did you examine the premises? 

A. I did. Only the four walls remained. 

Q. What was the occasion for attacking that building? Was it 
an attack? 

A. The same day there had been a district inspector shot in the 
town of Templemore. 

Q. So that as soon as a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary 
is shot they proceed to fire up the town? 

A. Yes. That night they shot up the town. 

Q. Are there other instances of that sort? 

A. Yes, they are quite common. 

Q. Is that what is meant by reprisals? 

A. Yes. These are what are meant by reprisals. Something 
happens. Any town in that vicinity will be attacked in a similar 
manner: shooting and everything of that kind; big motor lorries of 
troops arrive. 

THE BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q. Does the Royal Irish Constabulary do this, or the military? 

A. They are so mixed now it is difficult to tell. The original 
Royal Irish Constabulary forces are now supplemented by what are 
known as the Black-and-Tans. They are police who have been 
recruited in England in large quantities and sent across to fill up 
the forces in Ireland. They did not have uniforms enough of the 
original kind to give them, so they dressed them in khaki and put 
R. I. C. caps on them, which are black, and a black belt; so the 
black and khaki together made what is called Black-and-Tan. 

Q. Have they had difficulty in recruiting members for the Royal 
Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes. They could not get them to enlist in Ireland. As a 
result this Black-and-Tan has been introduced. 

JUSTICE SUPPLANTED BY ARSON AND ANARCHY 

Q. Has any person in your vicinity been arrested or tried or even 
accused by the public authorities for the commission of any of these 
murders or assaults upon officers? 

A. No. 

Q. So that the method which has been invoked to attempt to 



36 

stop or to bring to justice the perpetrators of these murders has been 
to fire upon the town? 

A. Exactly. There has been no trial in our vicinity of anybody 
on any of these charges. 

Q. Discussing the wake where the simpleton was shot, you said 
that that same night, about seven miles distant from the wake, the 
barracks of the police had been attacked? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What was the nature of that? Was anyone shot or any 
damage done? 

A. No one was killed. The barracks were just shot up. 

Q. You described the report made by Dublin Castle on the kill- 
ing of this simpleton. Was it at Templemore where some buildings 
were set fire to and people burned to death? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Just describe that. 

A. About two days after Templemore had been shot up, an 
officer who had taken part in it, named Captain Beattie, died. A 
report appeared in the papers that Captain Beattie had lost his life 
in a gallant attempt to save an inmate's life in a burning building 
in Templemore. 

Q. Is that all? Did they say what burning building? 

A. Oh, no; they did not say what building. 

Q. What was the result? 

A. The urban council of Templemore met and issued a repudia- 
tion of that statement. They said that Captain Beattie did not lose 
his life in rescuing an inmate of a burning buihling. but had lost 
his life in attempting to burn the town hall. 

Q. What were the facts? 

A. The best of my information is that Captain Beattie and a 
private soldier entered the building to burn it, and before they could 
get out, it was set afire from the outside. There was just a window 
from which they could escape. The window was a good height. 
A person could jump out from it into the street. What I imagine 
happened is that the soldier lifted the officer up to the window to 
jump out, and then he could not get out himself because he had 
no one to help him, and his body was found inside. 

Q. Do you know where the soldiers got the petrol to burn this 
building? 

A. Yes, sir. The soldiers went to a petrol shop in Templemore 
and demanded petrol. The owner said he would not give it to them, 
and they took it anyway from him and threw some of it back lighted 
and burned the shop down. 



M 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Demanded what? 
A. Petrol, petrol. 
Chairman Howe: Gasoline. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Who was the owner of the shop? 
A. He was a Protestant gentleman. 

Q. Were there any inmates of the town hall at the time the 
attack wa6 made upon it? 

A. No; fortunately it was night time and no one there. 

REPUBLICAN COURT ONLY JUDICIAL BODY IN 
THURLES 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: I would like to go back for a moment to 
the constitution of this arbitration court. After this court was 
formed, did the people of Thurles submit their cases to the arbi- 
tration court? 

A. Oh, yes; hundreds of cases were tried. 

Q. Hundreds of cases. Do the lawyers of Thurles practice in 
the arbitration courts? 

A. They do. 

Q. Are they allowed to carry on their business without restraint 
on the part of the military? Do they do it in public or do they 
have to do it in private? 

A. Oh, they have to do it in private. 

Q. Are the decrees of this court respected by the people of 
Thurles? 

A. Absolutely. I may say that at first the court did sit openly, 
and then a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary came along and 
closed the court, and since then they meet surreptitiously. 

Q. Do the people submit their controversies to them and respect 
their decisions and abide by them? 

A. Oh, yes, absolutely. 

Q. There are now no other courts in Thurles? 

A. No, nor have there been for several months. 

Q. They are abandoned? 

A. Yes. The petty court has quit sitting and the court house is 
falling into dilapidation. 

COOPERATIVE CREAMERIES BURNED BY CROWN 

FORCES 

Q. Are there any creameries in your neighborhood? 
A. Oh, yes. 



38 

Q. You might sketch how they are gotten up. 

A. Yes, these creameries are started by the farmers' cooperative 
societies. They take all their milk there. These have been very 
successful for the last several years in Ireland. 

Q. About how long? 

A. Thirty years, I suppose. I am not quite sure on that point, 
but I think about thirty years. 

Q. The farmers started them themselves? 

A. Yes. These creameries: the petrol that was taken from this 
shop this night at Templemore, the motor lorries took this petrol 
the same night and went around the country burning the five 
creameries systematically. 

Q. Were these large creameries? 

A. Yes, very large. 

Q. Was butter stored in these creameries? 

A. Yes, sir. 

EFFECT OF TERRORISM ON PEOPLE 

Q. What has been the effect of this terrorism upon the life of the 
people in the market towns? What effect has it had upon the price 
of necessities? 

A. In the first place, many people are afraid of their lives and 
are leaving business and giving up their places for sale. The roads 
of the district are patrolled. Armed motor lorries are rushing 
along day and night. The people are afraid to go on the roads at 
all. Only in case of necessity are people using the roads at all. 
People do not go on the roads except in day time when they have to, 
and they go straight home. 

Q. What effect has this had upon the price of products? 

A. It has sent up the price. Often necessary food cannot be 
brought in from the country because the people will not venture on 
the roads. 

Q. What effect upon the people? 

A. The people, naturally, are living in a state of terror. Take 
the case of my wife. She finds it very hard to sleep at night. At 
the least noise she is startled and rushes out of the house thinking an 
attack is to be made. 

Q. At the time of the shooting up of Thurles your little boy was 
in good health? 

A. He was a very strong boy. 

Q. Did this seem to have a profound effect upon his nerves? 

A. Yes, it shocked him profoundly. 



39 

Q. How about the people of the town, the rest of them? 

A. I have not been able to stop at my own home since January 
last. 

Q. Where do you stop? 

A. I stop at friends' houses. 

Q. And your wife? 

A. She usually sleeps in the house, but any noise sends her 
flying from the premises. 

Q. Is that common in Thurles? How about the prominent 
citizens? 

A. Yes, no man who is prominent will stop in his own home 
over night. 

Q. For fear of attacks? 

A. Yes. 

Q. I was asking about the little boy. Subsequent to this, when 
was the first notice you had of any condition of the boy's heart? 

A. We never had any trouble with him. We never had a doctor 
for him. 

Q. After this shooting, what was the course of his life? 

A. He was a great favorite of my own. He was a little chap 
whom I was bringing up in his own language. 

Q. Irish? 

A. Yes, Irish. I kept him with me so that I could talk to him 
in his own language. When I was taken away the poor little fellow 
was constantly calling for me. The week that he was dying, he 
used to look at the mother and say, "When is Daddy coming home?" 
and "Daddy, oh Daddy!" 

Q. What is he said to have died of? 

A. Heart trouble. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I think that is all. 

The Witness: As regards the town hall. We have a very fine town 
hall in Thurles that is used as a place of recreation for the young 
men of the town. That hall a year ago was commandeered by the 
military. 

Q. Is there any social life left in Thurles at all, any intercourse 
between the inhabitants, educational meetings? 

A. Oh, no. We used to hold classes in Irish, and they have all 
had to be discontinued. 

Q. Prior to that time was there social intercourse? 

A. Yes. We used to have classes, Irish and other classes. 

Q. And that has all been wiped out? 

A. Yes, that has all been wiped out. It is scarcely safe for 
traders to keep open. I have seen the armed forces of the Crown 



40 

come along and enter a meat shop and take down all the quarters 
of meat, put them down on the block, cut them up, and take them 
away. 

Q. Did they give any payment for it? 

A. They offered payment, which was not accepted. In the case 
I spoke of it was not accepted. 

TROUBLE IN IRELAND DUE TO DEMAND FOR 
SELF-GOVERNMENT 

Q. Senator Walsh: I would like to ask you some questions 
about the government of Ireland and the changes which have taken 
place there. I understand that some years back the government of 
your town consisted of a town council elected by the people, and an 
Irish Constabulary appointed by the British authorities, and 
magistrates and justices of the peace appointed by police authorities; 
that there came a time when there was brought to Ireland a British 
army, and this hospital you spoke of was taken over for barracks, 
and the town hall also. When was the date of the coming into 
Ireland of the British army? 

A. The British army? 

Q. Yes, the British army. 

A. You know we have always had British garrisons in Ireland. 

Q. When did they take over the hospital? 

A. The hospital was taken over two years ago. 

Q. The town hall? 

A. A year ago. They do not have it now, but they had it that 
winter. 

Q. In speaking of garrisoned towns, you mean recruiting stations 
where officers and soldiers are drilled and trained for the British 
army? 

A. Yes. 

Q. But there was no actual operating on the part of the British 
army until the past two years? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. They did not assume any authority or police the streets? 

A. Oh, no. There would be none of the armed lorries going by. 

Q. When did the Black-and-Tans appear in Ireland? 

A. The Black-and-Tans appeared in Ireland some six months 
ago. 

Q. How far had the people of Ireland proceeded in their 
attempts to establish an Irish Republic when the British army began 
to take an active part in attempting to preserve law and order? 



41 

A. The establishment of the Irish Republic would date back t<> 
the time of the election in December, 1918. 

Q. Two years ago this next month? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. About that time the British army became active in Ireland? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. It has been active ever since? 

A. Ever since. 

NATURE OF MILITARY OCCUPATION OF IRELAND 

Q. So it was the advent of the Republican form of government 
that brought the British army to Ireland? 

A. Yes. 

Q. They have established barracks in every large town and citv 
all over Ireland? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. So that they had in your town this large building you 
speak of? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What was that building used for before they took it? 

A. A fever hospital. 

Q. And you say they took over by summary process the whole 
building and turned out the inmates? 

A. Yes, and turned out the inmates. 

Q. And also the town hall? 

A. Yes, the town hall. 

Q. What appear to be the duties of these British soldiers.'' 
What are they doing by day and night? 

A. It seems to me that they are a garrison. 

Q. Are they acting in the capacity of police officers? 

A. They are going around on all these raids. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Eight of them go together? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You say soldiers. It is no longer the Irish Constabulary? 

A. It is all soldiers now. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What do the Black-and-Tans do? 

A. I really could not tell you. They do not do anything. 

Q. Where are they lodged? 

A. In the police barracks. You must discriminate between the 
police barracks and the military barracks. 

Q. The Black-and-Tans are taking the place of the Royal Irish 
Constabulary? 



42 

A. Yes. Irishmen refused to join them. Resignations have 
been taking place constantly and continuously. 

Q. How are they dressed? 

A. They are dressed in khaki the same as soldiers, with a black 
cap and black police belt. 

Q. Do they carry any weapons? 

A. Rifles in their hands. 

Q. How many Black-and-Tans are there is your town? 

A. I could not tell you. It would be dangerous for anybody to 
ask. You might be sent to two years in prison for asking such a 
question. 

Q. Has not the Town Council any authority to ask about how 
many British soldiers there are in the town? 

A. Oh, no. 

Q. What is your best judgment as to the number of Black-and- 
Tan officers in the town? 

A. I suppose there would be forty there. 

Q. And how many British soldiers? 

A. I really could not tell you. It is constantly changing. The 
units are changed. I really could not say what number. 

Q. Are these officials practically all British or Englishmen now? 

A. Oh, yes. All Black-and-Tans. Of course there is a corps 
now known as the Auxiliary Corps. 

Q. What is that? 

A. This is a corps that has been recruited from what has been 
described in the House of Commons as ex-army officers in England. 
I think they are principally for raiding purposes. They dress in 
civilian clothes and in soldiers' clothes. They dress in every way. 
You can never tell them. They go around in motor lorries every 
day raiding houses and raiding streets and holding them up. 

BRITISH POLICY TO STAMP OUT SELF-GOVERN- 
MENT 

Q. Back of all this disorder and the conditions you have de- 
scribed is an attempt of the British authorities to wipe out and 
stamp out and eliminate from Ireland the efforts of the Irish people 
to organize the Irish Republic? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And as soon as the people of Ireland would give up any 
effort to establish a republic and agree to accept British authority 
all this would end? 

A. That is apparently the case. 



43 

Q. Chairman Howe: These local bodies to which you were 
elected a member, are they not British statutory bodies? Were 
they not elected in accordance with an Act of Parliament? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. And the people were authorized to use them? 

A. Yes. 

Q. They were legalized political agencies that had been used by 
the people for a long time? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. And when they used them to elect Republican members, this 
attack intervened? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And I understand you to say, Mr. Morgan, that you had not 
slept in your own home since this happened? 

A. I have not slept in my own home since January twentieth, the 
night of the shooting. 

Q. How many people in Thurles do that — of how many is it 
true? 

A. I know of my own personal knowledge that it is true of over 
a dozen, I am sure. 

Q. Do you show yourself on the streets of Thurles? 

A. Yes, in the day time, but not after dark. 

Q. You have been back in Thurles? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You do not sleep at night where you may be found? 

A. Yes. 

Q. All these massacres take place at night? 

A. Yes, sir, always at night. The day I was coming away I was 
in Dublin, before I came here. The night before I came the whole 
block where I was staying was hemmed in by Black-and-Tans. I 
was afraid I would be detained, and so I left early in the morning. 
I came down in a taxi cab to see my sister. The motor car was 
held up by two armed soldiers by the road and I was ordered out by 
the side of the road to be searched. The officer came along and 
looked me over and said, "I guess we will have to go back." And 
so I made the boat just in time. 

Q. You had a passport? 

A. Yes, I had a passport. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you come here in response to the 
invitation of this Commission? 

A. Yes, sir. 



44 
THE CAMPAIGN OF PASSIVE RESISTANCE 

Q. Has the Republican organization in any way of your knowl- 
edge aided or abetted or encouraged the commission of murders 
of officers? 

A. Never. 

Q. Has there been any action taken, secretly or in any way, to 
wreak vengeance upon English soldiers who are implicated in re- 
prisals? 

A. No. 

Q. As conditions are such as you have described, it is but natural 
that there have been excitable Irish citizens who engage in assaults. 

A. But they control themselves. In the town of Littletown there 
was a police barracks. About three weeks ago that barracks was 
attacked on Sunday afternoon and taken without a shot being fired. 
The members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, men who were there, 
were taken out and never molested, and told to wait for a time until 
the men took away the stuff in the barracks, and they were never 
injured. That was a case where they captured the whole barracks 
and had all the men in their hands, and none of them were ever 
molested. 

Q. Has the movement in Ireland for an Irish Republic been 
based upon orders that murders or the loss of life shall never be 
tolerated or committed? That is, has the campaign of the Irish 
Republican authorities been one of passive resistance? 

A. Yes, certainly. The organization is there for the establish- 
ment on a permanent basis of the Irish Republic if possible. 

Q. To what extent have they proceeded to organize by passive 
resistance? What is their plan? 

A. They set up their own executive bodies. The arbitration 
court is an instance of it. In our council, for instance, we have 
repudiated the authority of England to hold any dictatorial power 
over us or forbid us to do this or to do that. We have our own 
government now, established with what is known as all the public 
representatives of the people assembled. We have a regular 
executive organized. 

Q. In a word, your organization has appealed to the people of 
Ireland to make known through their votes their wishes to abandon 
any association with the British Government and to establish a 
government of their own? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And you were elected 1<> form a town council to notify the 



45 

British authorities that you would not recognize the British Govern- 
ment but would establish an Irish Government? 

A. Exactly. We repudiated any connection with Britain. 

LAW AND ORDER MAINTAINED BY IRISH CIVIL 
AUTHORITIES 

Q. To what extent have you gone in warning and preventing 
your supporters and aids from doing violent acts, and what steps 
have you taken to prevent lawlessness in Ireland? 

A. We have established in Ireland our own police, who have 
been very effective in bringing to account those who have been 
guilty of burglary arid assaults and larceny and everything of that 
sort. They have captured the criminals in several cases of hold-ups 
of banks in Ireland. The streets of Dublin at night time are 
policed by our men. 

Q. Is there any other authority appointed and named and elected 
by the people of your town and the towns of the vicinity, other than 
what has been elected by the people with a desire to have a republic 
in Ireland? 

A. Is there any other authority in operation? 

Q. In operation elected bv the people? 

A. No. 

Q. The only other authority is the British army and the Royal 
Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes. 

Q. No civil authority? 

A. No, there is no civil authority now with the exception of the 
Republican executive bodies. 

Q. There is no other group of civilians, either elected or named 
by the British Government, seeking to administer to the people 
politically? 

A. No. 

Q. How many British soldiers or members of the Royal Irish 
Constabulary in the last two years have been assaulted, killed, or 
murdered by unknown parties in your vicinity? 

A. In the vicinity? In the town there have been two cases of 
shooting in or near the town. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: In the last two years did the Repub- 
lican police try in any way to investigate or protect the constables? 

A. Do you mean on this particular occasion? 

Q. On any occasion? 

A. On the first occasion our police were not operating. That 
was a good while ago, two years ago. But they have been very 



46 

active since. I have known of cases of soldiers rescued from the 
hands of mobs; that is to say, drunken soldiers who are taken and 
apt to be maltreated. I have known them to be taken and rescued 
by the Irish police officers. 

Q. Are they known as such? 

A. Oh, no. They act secretly. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What would happen to a man who was 
known to be acting as an Irish police officer? 

A. He would be arrested on the spot. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I mean about policing the town 
generally? 

A. There is more terror struck into criminals now than ever 
before. They know they cannot escape from the Irish Republican 
police. 

Q. What happens to a man who is taken by your police? 

A. He is taken to what is known as an unknown destination. If 
the destination was known the army would swoop clown on them. 

Q. Has he a regular trial? 

A. Yes, a regular trial. 

Q. What happens to him? You have no jails. 

A. Sometimes there are jails. A secret house will do. And 
there are fines. And we order them to leave the district. They 
may be deported out of that, and sent away. Very often they are 
taken down to the boat and sent away to the other side, for very 
often they are from the other side. 

IRISH LABOR SUPPORTS REPUBLIC 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: To what extent is the town you live 
in organized? 

A. I beg your pardon. 

Q. To what extent is the town you live in organized as far as 
labor is concerned? 

A. All the labor possible in our town is organized, and then we 
have a trades council, which consists of elected members from the 
trades unions. 

Q. Is this council molested in any way? 

A. Oh, yes. There has been a meeting of the Irish Transport 
Workers broken up by the police. 

Q. Are the organized labor groups in sympathy with the Re- 
public? 



47 

A. Oh, every one of them. One hundred per cent. Every one 
of them. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Can you give us a financial statement of 
the amount of damage that has been done to property in your 
vicinity by attacks on your town? 

A. By attacks on the town? 

Q. What that represents in dollars and cents? 

A. No, I would not attempt to do that. That would be a 
financial matter that I could not answer. 

Chairman Howe: It is now one o'clock. We will adjourn until 

two -fifteen. 

******* 

2:25 P. M. 
Chairman Howe: Will the hearing please come to order? Are 
there further questions that members of the Commission want to 
ask the witness? 

SUPPRESSION OF FREEDOM OF PRESS AND 

SPEECH 

Q. Senator Walsh: There is one question I want to ask the 
last witness. To what extent, if at all, have restrictions been put 
upon the printing in the press of Ireland of news items relating to 
the activities of the Republican movement and the officials of your 
council ? 

A. All the papers have been warned from the English Govern- 
ment that if they publish any news like that they will be suppressed. 

Q. Have you any specific instances where there has been a re- 
fusal to print propaganda in favor of the Republican movement? 

A. On the occasion of the floating of the Republic Loan, any 
paper that published the advertisement, the prospectus, was im- 
mediately suppressed. 

Q. Were they suppressed? 

A. Yes, there and then they were suppressed. 

Q. Do you know how many papers were suppressed? 

A. One of the leading papers in Dublin, the Freeman, published 
it and was suppressed immediately. 

Q. Was that one of the papers of largest circulation? 

A. Yes. 

Q. To what extent has freedom of speech been restricted? 

A. No such thing as a public meeting is now allowed. 

Q. For how long a time has that been in force? 

A. For eighteen months or two years. 



I.". 

Q. Has there been any interference with the religious rights of 
the people? 

A. Oh, yes. On my own experience, a fortnight before I left 
for here. I was leaving a church. The whole street was suddenly 
blocked up by motor lorries and soldiers, and every man coming 
out of the church was held up and searched. 

Q. How many were thus held? 

A. There must have been thousands. 

Q. When was that? 

A. About a Sunday before the seventh of November. 

Q. Just this year? 

A. Just this year, just before I left. 

Q. What were they searching for, arms or documents or some- 
thing else? 

A. It must have been arms. I presume arms. 

Q. Has there been any interference of your personal knowledge 
of the holding of religious services by any religious denomination? 

A. Not of my own experience. 

Q. Do they have religious services at night? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Are they still held at night? 

A. They are. 

Q. What if any effect upon the attendance is due to this con- 
dition you have described? 

A. We have missions in Ireland, perhaps once a year, for a 
particular parish or a particular church. It has happened that as 
the people came out of the churches, it might be a bit late, they 
have been stopped and searched. 

Q. Apparently to find out if they are carrying arms? 

A. Yes, sir. 

CONDITIONS BECOMING WORSE 

Q. Chairman Howe: Much of your testimony related to the 
early part of this year? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Are the conditions improving or getting worse? 

A. Getting worse. As to that there can be no question. There 
is now no end of suppression of freedom of speech. 

Q. How about the military authorities? Are there more clashes 
with their men than two months ago or not? 

A. It is constantly reported in the papers daily that more 
troops are coming over, coming by thousands. 



49 

Q. Yon mean that troops are being massed by the thousands? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do they rome organized as a military expedition or more 
as a police force? 

A. It is very hard to place this Auxiliary Corps I spoke of 
under any head. It is not a police force. It is more for raiding 
purposes. It seems to be particularly the duty of the Auxiliary 
Corps to carry out raids on houses. 

Q. You have described conditions around about Thurles. How 
is it elsewhere? 

A. I have had experience at Dublin for the past few weeks 
before I left. You might be going down the main streets any time 
of the day, and suddenly you hear a shout, "Whoop," and suddenly 
both ends of the street are stopped up. Shots are fired over the 
heads of the bystanders and then everyone is searched. Now they 
are always accompanied by armored cars carrying machine guns. 
The armored cars drive right up on the foot path where the people 
stand so that they have to clear out in all directions in order to 
escape. On almost any street of Dublin you can see these armored 
cars going along with bayonets sticking out, and very often they 
fire shots, apparently to see the women and people scream and fly 
in all directions. 

Q. Very often they fire in the air? 

A. Yes. 

Q. The reason for searching persons is to see if they have any 
firearms? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How do they do it? 

A. They take a particular street or a particular section and 
search that. There was D'Olier Street a short time ago. Both ends 
of the street were cut off by a cordon. No one was allowed to go 
inside it. They were raiding some house inside that area. A shot 
went off. Immediately an officer gave orders to his men and they 
immediately lay flat on the ground with their guns pointed on the 
ready. Suddenly a man rushed out of his office and said to the 
officer: "Hold, that shot was fired by one of your own men." The 
officer had the presence of mind to say "Hold" to the men. And it 
was found that a soldier had accidentally dropped his rifle and it 
had gone off. It was only the presence of mind of the man who 
rushed out of the office that saved the situation. 



50 

POLICE FORCE SUPERIOR TO ELECTED AUTHORI- 
TIES 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I would like to know whether, in 
your official position as executive of the town, if there should 
be another of these killings of constables, you would feel it a part 
of your official duty to go into it and try to apprehend the man 
responsible? 

A. You must remember that that does not come within the 
scope of my duties. We do not have that power now and we did 
not have it under the old regime. We cannot do anything of that 
kind. We have no control over this Irish Constabulary force. We 
cannot direct them to do this or to do that or anything else. 

Q. But if he is injured on the streets of the town of which you 
are acting mayor, you can do nothing about it then? 

A. No. We have nothing to do at all about that. We have no 
power to do anything. 

Q. Under the old system could you call upon the Royal Irish 
Constabulary to preserve order? 

A. Anybody can do that. 

Q. But you had no authority under the old system? 

A. No. 

Q. Under the present system you are looked upon as outlaws 
and as enemies of the British Government? 

A. Yes. 

SUPPRESSION OF CORONERS' INQUESTS 

There is a point about the coroner's inquest that I spoke of this 
morning. Now there are no coroners' inquests allowed. 

Q. Chairman Howe: When did they stop? 

A. Within the last couple of months, when this latest emergency 
legislation came out. The coroners are warned not to hold any 
inquests in case of a shooting. Instead, a military inquest is held 
and an official account is later issued. In fact, English newspaper 
reporters writing up the situation have been threatened openly by 
the police. 

Q. Can you give a specific instance of that? 

A. Mr. Hugh Martin, who represents some big English paper, 
was across in Ireland for his paper, and he wrote up an account of 
a shooting by the Constabulary, and he reports that his life was 
threatened on the streets of Tralee. 



51 

Q. What kind of a threat? 

A. That if he did not clear out he would be taken. 

GOVERNMENT WITHOUT CONSENT OF GOVERNED 

Q. To what extent have the Irish citizens refused to serve in the 
British courts? 

A. They have absolutely refused to obey the summons of these 
courts. 

Q. Is that practically unanimous all over Ireland? 

A. Yes. 

Q. The same thing is true about the Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes. 

Q. So it is practically impossible for the British Government 
to get a citizen of Ireland to serve on a jury or in the Irish Con- 
stabulary? 

A. Yes, sir; quite difficult. 

Q. Are there any other civic bodies where Irishmen formerly 
rendered service under British authority where they have protested 
against it now, other than police and jury service? 

A. Of course the magistrates have all handed up their magis- 
tracies. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Are there any magistrates now except the 
R. M.'s — that is, the resident magistrates, who are paid officials? 

A. No. 

Q. So the protest has practically gone to the extent of every 
Irish man and woman refusing to hold a position of authority in 
Ireland under British rule? 

A. Yes, they refuse to recognize the functions of the other party 
in Ireland. 

THE WRONG MAN SHOT 

Q. Are there any other points you want to bring out? 

A. There is just one other case in regard to shootings, which 
happened in Thurles. There was a man named Cleary. I happened 
to be in Dublin at the time. This night his brother by some means 
got word not to sleep in his own house. His name was John — 
John Cleary. So he did not go home and sent word to his mother 
not to allow his brother to sleep in his house either. Michael 
stopped out until one in the morning, and then thought that every- 
thing was quiet and safe and proceeded home. At one-thirty there 
was a knock at the door, and he went down in his trousers and 
opened it. He was immediately confronted by four armed men 
wearing trench helmets, and was asked something about whether he 



52 

knew anything of the killing of a policeman, and immediately he 
was fired upon. The bullet entered his chin and penetrated the 
shoulder and came out of his back. He had a very narrow escape 
with his life. Fortunately, he has nol died. He was not the man 
they wanted. They wanted his brother. The same night the as- 
sistant town clerk of Thurles was looked up, about a half hour 
subsequent to that. He was not at home at the time. 

Q. Who was Geary? What was his position? 

A. He was a coach builder in the town. 

Q. A reputable citizen? 

A. Yes. He was only a young chap, an ex-pupil of mine. 

Q. How old? 

A. About twenty-three. 

Q. Was he a Republican in politics? 

A. Yes, he was known as a Republican. He did not have a 
very prominent part, however. 

Q. What was the date of this shooting? 

A. I cannot give you the exact date. How ever, it would be about 
five weeks ago. 

Q. Had any British officer been injured or shot previous to that? 

A. No. 

Q. Was it, to your knowledge, due to any act of assault or 
murder committed by the citizens of your town? 

A. We could not find anything at all happened. 

Q. So far as you know, what was the motive for these British 
officers to call at this house, either for Cleary or his brother? 

A. They probably considered that his brother was a member of 
the I. R. A., the Irish Republican Army. They probably intended 
to take him out and shoot him. He was not there, and so they shot 
the brother instead. 

Q. What was the question they asked him? 

A. Did he know anything about the shooting of a policeman. 

Q. Had there been any policeman shot? 

A. No, not since the preceding January. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is there any other testimony? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: We have one question we would like to ask 
him. You detailed a number of coroners' inquests wherein the 
verdict was that it was a wilful murder. Was there any action 
taken after the coroner's jury verdict by the British Government? 

A. No. 



WITNESSES IMPARTIALLY SUMMONED BY COM- 
MISSION 

Chairman Howe: I might say that the cablegrams asking witnesses 
to come here were sent to officials of towns and cities which were 
quoted as towns in which outrages of some kind were carried on. 
The Commission cabled to Belfast and thirty-four other towns, to 
the mayors of those towns. It was an impersonal cable rather than 
a personal cable. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You personally received a cable from this 
Commission ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When did you receive it? 

A. On the Sunday before I left. 

Q. So no Irish society brought you here? 

A. No, I came only at the request of the Commission. I re- 
ceived a cablegram and immediately proceeded the following Sun- 
day morning. 

Senator Walsh: I am asking you because I want it a matter of 
record that you are brought here and your expenses are paid by this 
Commission, and you came as a witness for the Commission. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 

Chairman Howe: There are three Americans who have recently 
been in Ireland who are here and want to testify and get away this 
afternoon. They are Father English and Mr. Furnas and Reverend 
Cotter. The testimony of these American witnesses will be con- 
ducted by the Commission. Father English. 

TESTIMONY OF REV. M. M. ENGLISH 

Q. Chairman Howe: Father English, will you please state your 
name and residence and your professional position and any other 
preliminary facts? 

A. My name is Michael M. English. I live in the town of 
Whitehall, Montana. I am the pastor of the Catholic Church there, 
the only Catholic Church in the town. 

Q. Where were y°u born? 

A. In Ireland. 

Q. How long have you been in America? 

A. I have been in America for thirteen years. I came to this 
country in 1907. 

Q. Where did you get your education? 

A. In Saint Paul, Minnesota. 



54 

Q. Are you an American citizen? 

A. I am. 

Q. When did you become an American citizen? 

A. Just one year ago. The reason the citizenship was postponed 
was that because, when I arrived in this country, I was just sixteen 
years of age, and waited until I was- twenty-one before getting my 
first papers. Then I made a visit back to Ireland, and I found upon 
my return that I could not get my citizenship papers because of 
my absence from the country on my trip to Ireland. I had to 
take out my first papers again, and became a citizen just as soon 
as possible. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Are there any other preliminary facts? 

A. No. 

Q. You have been recently in Ireland. Now proceed and tell 
what you saw. 

Senator Walsh: What was your reason for going to Europe? 

A. First of all, to visit my parents in Ireland and to visit in 
England some friends of mine, and to visit France, Italy, and espe- 
cially Rome. I arrived in Ireland about the third of May of this 
year. I sailed from Cove in Ireland about the first of September. 
I was in Ireland all of this time with the exception of about five 
weeks, which I spent in France and England upon two occasions. 

Q. Proceed with the story of your experiences in Ireland. 

RAID ON FATHER'S HOUSE 

A. The part of the story I wish to relate first is the most intimate 
experience I had in Ireland. It occurred on the evening of Mon- 
day, the twenty-ninth of August. I left my father's home on Tues- 
day, the thirtieth of August, to go to Cove and take the boat for 
America the next day. 

Q. Cove was formerly Queenstown? 

A. Yes. That is the name it legally has now, even under 
British law. 

Q. Did you not state where your father's home was? 

A. In the County of Limerick. 

Q. The parish? 

A. The parish is Templebredan. The nearest town is Hospital, 
four miles away. On this evening, while my baggage was being 
made up, consisting of two grips and a trunk, I was in my father's 
house, which is about a hundred yards from the road. About half 
past five a military lorry came down the road from the direction 
of the town of Hospital and stopped at the gate. The soldiers ran 



55 

into the avenue and surrounded the house. There are two doors 
in the house, a kitchen door and a hall door facing the road on the 
other side. I came to the hall door just in time to see the troops 
form a circle around that end of the house. These troops, I might 
explain, were dressed in khaki and wore trench helmets and carried 
rifles with bayonets on them. Two men who seemed to be officers, 
whom we afterwards discovered to be officers, were armed only with 
revolvers in their belts. One of these officers came to the door and 
demanded that all of the men in the house must come out on the 
lawn in front of the house and be searched. They told my mother 
that the ladies and myself did not need to come out, because I was 
a priest. My brothers were all searched except my small brother, 
about seventeen, who said, "I refuse to come out." And the officer 
pulled his revolver and said: "You come out or I will give you 
the contents of this." Then the search went on. As my father's 
watch was taken out of his pocket he said, "I want you to return 
the watch." The officer said: "Escort this man to the lorry." The 
search of the other men proceeded. The body search was finished 
in about fifteen minutes. Then the officers attempted to enter the 
house. 

AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP IGNORED 

I was standing in the hall door. I said: "I want to know who 
the commanding officer is." He said, "I am." I said, "I have 
property in this house, my personal belongings. As an American 
citizen I require that these be immune from search." He said, 
"Your American citizenship does not count here. You are on Brit- 
ish soil." I said, "Still I am an American, and subject only to 
the ordinary civil courts." He said, "That does not count. Your 
citizenship does not entitle you to any privileges here." He re- 
peated, "It does not count here, and your property will be searched." 
Then I said, "I am anxious on my return to America to enter a 
protest to my government against this. In order that my protest 
may be intelligent, I want to know your name, your rank, and the 
name of your regiment." He said, "I absolutely refuse to give you 
any information." I said, "Do you mean that I am not going to 
know who is searching me?" He said, "I will give you no infor- 
mation whatever. I have been forbidden to do so. I cannot do it." 
I said, "Then I require you to produce your authority for searching 
me." He tapped his revolver and said, "This is my authority." 
I said, "That is not enough." He said, "Do you want to see a little 
more of it?" 

The search of the house proceeded. They started on the lower 



56 

floor. There is a parlor, a large room, and a little breakfast room 
on the lower floor. One of the officers, whom I afterwards dis- 
covered to be Captain V. H. Wells (the other one, with whom I 
held the conversation, was afterward discovered to be Major Gray), 
— the captain went into the little breakfast room accompanied by 
my mother. The major asked me to accompany him on his search. 
In the parlor he took the rug off the floor. I also wish to state 
that during the search no property was damaged in any way. He 
removed the rug off the floor, lifted up the tablecloth, examined 
all papers in the room, took the pictures off the wall and removed 
the cardboard off the back of them. Evidently he was looking for 
documents. On the mantel piece were also some letters of mine 
addressed to me, containing nothing but social and personal cor- 
respondence. These the major took in his hand. I said, "All these 
letters are mine." He said, "I am going to read them." He put 
them in his pocket, although I requested him to hand them over 
to me. Those letters were never returned. The captain, who 
searched the other room, reported that he was through. Then all 
four of us went upstairs. On one side of the stairway upstairs are 
two rooms, one the room that I had been using, and the other room 
used by a couple of my brothers. I stood again in the door leading 
into the room which I had been occupying, and I said, "This is my 
room. There is nothing in here that is not my property, and I insist 
as an American citizen that it be not searched, at least without a 
proper warrant." The major stated again that that made no differ- 
ence, and the protest was unavailing. My mother accompanied the 
captain during the search of my room. I went into my brothers' 
room with the major. In that room i> a wardrobe with coats and 
vests and trousers hanging in it, and one bed. He searched the 
wardrobe. In a pocket of the wardrobe he discovered a card of 
membership in the Irish Volunteers, made out in the name of 
Patrick English, a brother of mine. He showed me this card at 
the time he found it. He said, "Who is Patrick English?" I re- 
fused to give him any information whatever. He said, "We will 
take every man here until we discover who he is. We will remove 
them all." He proceeded with the search. He took the bedclothes 
off the bed, including the mattress, removed the rug again off the 
floor, looked on top of the wardrobe and under it (it was a loose 
wardrobe, not attached to the wall), and then he sounded the ceiling 
with the butt of his revolver, and he sounded portions of the floor 
and the wall. In the meantime, the captain, as I have stated, was 
conducting the search of my room. I went in there with the major. 
This captain who was conducting ih<* search in my room never at 



57 

any time appeared in the room where we were. I discovered that 
things; were considerably upset, but nothing damaged, indicating 
that a very thorough search had been made. I found that other 
letters which were only of a personal nature were taken, that a 
photo which had been taken of myself in Butte, Montana, many 
years ago had also been taken, and that notes of mine from my 
trip around England, Ireland, and France had also been taken. I 
asked the major again for the return of these notes, but he again 
refused. They also searched the rooms on the other side of the 
stairway. As far as I know, nothing was taken. Then we all went 
downstairs. 

The major said, "Who is Patrick English?" My brother stepped 
out. He said, "You are under arrest." They removed my brother 
down to the gate. My mother, my brother, and myself went down 
to the gate to see him off. He said, "What charge have you against 
me?" The major refused to reply. As we were going down to the 
gate, I warned the others to go back. I said, "They might fire on 
us. They are liable to turn the machine gun in the lorry on us. 
We had better go back." 

HIS LIFE THREATENED 

As a continuation of this, the next morning, as I was leaving for 
Cove to take the boat, the next morning about half past ten a young 
man who lives in a house about three miles from there named Kirby 
came up there and said to me privately, "Our house was raided last 
night at midnight. They asked where you lived and one of them 
said. 'We are going to shoot English on the morrow.' " That was 
the last I heard until I got to Montana, and I got a letter which 
said that my brother had been sentenced to six months. I also got 
a letter from my father, who said that on the next evening the 
Black-and-Tans came and surrounded the house and fired on my 
brothers, who were out in the fields around the house, but they did 
not get hurt. The District Inspector was in charge, and he asked 
for the Reverend English. He w r as told that I was on ray way to 
America. The District Inspector swore that if ever he got his hands 
on me it would be a long time until I saw New York. On the 
mantelpiece was a picture of George Washington. 

Q. Who was this District Inspector? 

A. He was the district inspector of police from a place called 
Pallas. He took the picture of George Washington, threw it on 
(he floor, and put his heel on it and said, "This is what ought to 
happen to all these bloody Americans." 

That is all of my personal experiences. 



58 
POSSIBLE REASONS FOR THE RAID 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you at any time during your presence 
in that town participate in any way in political matters? 

A. No, I made up my mind that I would not take any part in 
politics. I was asked to speak on one occasion in Limerick, but 
refused on that ground. 

Q. Did your father or brothers participate in any way in any 
attacks upon British officers or authorities? 

A. No, not at any time. 

Q. • Can you give us any information why they singled out the 
house where you were for this raid? 

A. The explanation which I think is feasible is that, like other 
people in that part of the country, my father is known to be de- 
sirous of a Republican government in Ireland. He has made no 
secret of it, and has advocated it on all occasions. He happens to 
be one of the most prominent farmers in that part of the country. 
I suppose that was one reason. Another reason is, and I forgot to 
state it, in the course of the search a telegram was found in one of 
the rooms — an old telegram. It was sent by me to my brother. It 
was sent from Lisdoonvarna, in the County of Clare. I sent it about 
the first of August to my brother Patrick, who was arrested that 
night. There were races taking place in Gal way. I had been away 
from home about two weeks, and had wired to my brother to join 
me at the race meeting. Everybody goes to the race meetings in 
Ireland. I wired him: "Will you be able to come to the meeting 
in Gal way? Bring New York papers." The major discovered this 
and called the captain's attention to it (he carefully refrained from 
calling him captain), and said, "Here is something." That was 
pocketed. This bore out a suspicion they might have had that I was 
a medium for communication between New York and Ireland. 

Q. This meeting was a race meeting and they interpreted it as a 
political meeting? 

A. Yes, evidently. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You mentioned that when your 
father's watch was taken, he asked that the watch be returned, and 
then the officer in command ordered that he be taken away. What 
happened to your father? 

A. He was sent back when the lorry left. He was only taken to 
the gate. He was not injured in any way. 



59 

Q. How old is your father? 

A. About fifty-one years of age. 

Q. A farmer? 

A. Yes, a farmer. 

Q. How large a home have you there? 

A. It is about sixty acres, which is a fair-sized farm in that part 
of the country. 

Q. Did your brothers work upon the farm? 

A. Yes, with the exception of the one who is going to college. 

Q. This young brother of seventeen was going to college? 

A. Yes, he was going to Rothwell. 

Q. There was nothing in the conduct of the members of your 
family that would justify such a raid? 

A. Absolutely nothing, except that our sympathies were well 
known. 

Q. Did you find out that the sympathies of the other people in 
that village were of the same kind? 

A. Yes, the sympathies of all the people in that part of the 
country are Republican. 

Chairman Howe: Now you may proceed. 

ORDINARY EXPERIENCES IN IRELAND TODAY 

The Witness: I will try to give a chronological account of my 
experiences. I remained in Ireland all the time, except for a brief 
visit in France and England, up to my departure for this country. 
In traveling around to visit my friends it was an ordinary experience 
to be held up by the military on the country roads. A motor lorry 
would be alongside the road surrounded by soldiers, and everybody 
in the car was searched and the car itself was searched, all except 
myself. I never was searched, although I was held up many times 
with others who were searched. These lorries drive along the prin- 
cipal roads almost every day, going to and fro at a high rate of 
speed. 

Q. Will you describe these lorries? 

A. The lorry is a large truck with an automobile engine. It is 
very large. It seats between twenty and thirty. In the large ones 
they have machine guns, and soldiers or Black-and-Tans (it depends 
upon who is going in the lorries), silting along the side and in the 
back with rifles at the ready. These soldiers and Black-and-Tans 
frequently fire on cattle or horses and destroy them on their trips 
around the country. I will give one example of which I have per- 
sonal knowledge. About a half mile from my place lives a neigh- 



60 

bor in a cottage by the road. He has about a half acre of ground. 
His hogs are generally along the road by the house. The road itself 
is about twenty-five feet wide, and on either side there is a hard 
surface. Along the side by the hard surface is a grassy surface 
about eight to ten feet wide on either side. One afternoon a lorry 
was passing along, and two pigs were on the hard surface between 
the road and the fence. It was a big heavy lorry filled with sol- 
diers. The lorry turned in off the road and ran over the pigs, 
breaking the back of one and the legs of the other, so that they had 
to be butchered. I came along about a half hour after this, and 
the young man showed me that the lorry had turned off the road 
and ran almost into the fence in order to run over the pigs. I give 
this as an instance of the mischief they do. 

WANTON MURDER OF PATRICK LYNCH AT 
HOSPITAL 

On the night of the fourteenth of August there was a shooting in 
the town of Hospital. On the morning of Sunday, the fifteenth of 
August, I went from my own place to the town of Hospital, and 
there I found the people in a state of terror. I discovered upon 
investigating that upon the previous night a number of soldiers had 
entered the house of a man named Lynch, Patrick Lynch, a harness 
maker, a single man forty years of age living with his two sisters 
and a blind father. These soldiers had entered his house at eleven- 
thirty on Saturday night, the fourteenth of August, while they were 
on their knees saying the rosary. They dragged him — or rather 
they first asked him to come along. He said, "Just a minute until I 
get my cap." They said, "You will not need your cap in the place 
to which you are going." They took him out about a hundred 
yards to a place called the Fair Green, the village square. And 
then they shot him. 

The local doctor lives in a place about fifty yards from where he 
was shot, and they dragged him out and told him a man was shot. 
He had lived in this town about thirty years, almost as long as 
Lynch himself. The doctor saw that Lynch was dead. There were 
about four wounds in his head. His body was badly battered. The 
powder marks were on his face in such a way that the doctor did 
not recognize him. He asked the military who the man was. He 
said, "Does he live in this town?" The doctor knew Lynch, but 
he did not recognize the body, and he could not understand why he 
should be shot. So he went down with the military to Lynch 's 
house, and knocked on the floor and asked the -inters and said. "Is 



61 

your brother home?" They said, "No, the military took him out 
about half an hour ago." He then knew it was Lynch. 

Q. Had they notified the sisters? 

A. Yes. The next day a report was made public by the police 
that Lynch was shot by the forces of the Crown in attempting to 
escape from arrest. An inquest was arranged for. This was before 
the abolition of coroners' inquests in the county of Limerick. I 
believe it was called for the following Saturday, which would be 
about the first of August, I think. At the request of the county 
coroner, who corresponds roughly to what we call the county at- 
torney, the inquest was postponed for two weeks. 

Q. At whose request? 

A. The county coroner, the representative of the British Gov- 
ernment, requested that the inquest be postponed. At the end of 
two weeks it was held. I was present at the inquest in Hospital 
on Monday, about the twenty-second of August, if Monday was the 
twenty-second of August. It was called for one o'clock in the 
afternoon. The coroner was there. A jury was there, which had 
been summoned by the Head Constable of the Constabulary at the 
next police barracks, which was about five miles away. The wit- 
nesses were there, and the audience. 

Q. The jury was not from that town? 

A. No, the jury was not from that town, but summoned by the 
police from five miles away. They waited for the appearance of 
the Crown Solicitor until three o'clock, and for the appearance of 
the witnesses of the military. Then a telephone call came from 
Limerick from the Limerick County Solicitor, Gaffney, stating that 
his side would put in no witnesses. The inquest was held. The 
doctor, his sisters, and all the other witnesses who saw how the man 
had died and the nature of his wounds, testified. The verdict was 
"wilful murder" against the military stationed in Hospital at that 
time. As far as I could discover, before I left Ireland 'and since, 
I have heard of no action whatsoever that was taken against any 
of those men who shot him. although a verdict of wilful murder, 
brought in under all the rules of English law in Ireland, was 
rendered. 

Q. Did the soldiers give any reason to the doctor, when they 
called him to view the body of Lynch, for murdering him? 

A. No, they gave no reason whatever. 

Q. Do you know from your personal inquiries and investigation 
as to whether Lynch had been active in doing anything that would 
anger or create any liostilit\ against him? 

A, I know that Lynch, in the first place, was a man who was 



62 

not in full possession of his faculties; he was not insane, but he was 
slightly what they call over there simple. I knew him when I went 
to school there at the age of sixteen. I knew him as a very harmless 
individual who never took part in politics of any nature, not even 
in the old days. 

Q. What explanation do you give for the murder of Lynch? 

A. The explanation that I heard around there from the people, 
and which has since been verified to a certain extent, was that they 
were looking for some Lynch or for another Lynch. They found 
that he was the only man of that name in Hospital, and they shot 
him. 

Q. Some Lynch that they thought was prominent in the Repub- 
lican movement? 

A. Yes, some Lynch that was prominent in the Republican 
movement. 

HOSPITAL SHOT UP 

Also in the town they seized the house of the man to whom they 
came first, of a man named Sullivan. His house overlooks the three 
short streets of the town. They seized this house about the middle 
of July — from the first to the middle of July. On the street in front 
they built a barricade of sand bags and stones, and in this barricade 
they placed a machine gun. This blockade and the hollow square 
inside it were always manned by some soldiers. One afternoon 
about a week after they had occupied this house, they turned the 
machine gun on one of the streets of the town and raked the streets 
of the town for fifteen minutes. Fortunately, the people got word 
in some way of what was going to be done, and there was no one 
injured, except glass broken and walls injured where they were hit. 

Q. Had any attacks upon soldiers been made in that town? 

A. No, absolutely none. The condition in Hospital was that 
that was a police barracks in Hospital until about the fifth of May. 
The police evacuated the barracks about the fifth of May and left 
for some other town. On the night that they evacuated the police 
barracks, it was burned. That was all that had happened in that 
part of the country at any time since 1916. 

Q. Had these men who had occupied these barracks and evacu- 
ated resigned? 

A. No, they had not resigned. They were moved from this 
barracks and taken to larger quarters. 



63 

INDISCRIMINATE FIRING AND BURNING IN LIM- 
ERICK CITY 

I live fourteen miles from the city of Limerick. Frequently 
during the summer I visited the city, staying over night or for 
three or four days, for I had some friends there. In the city of 
Limerick there is a large military barracks containing on an average 
perhaps six hundred soldiers. And then there are two police 
barracks, large ones, containing possibly four hundred, three- 
fourths of whom are Black-and-Tans, and the other members were 
the old members of the Royal Irish Constabulary. During the 
months in which I visited Limerick, it was a frequent occurrence 
for the Black-and-Tans to go out through the streets at night, and 
especially in one section of the town, Pennywell is the name of it, 
and there about eleven or twelve o'clock let loose their guns, firing 
in the air or at some house. Anyway, nobody was personally in- 
jured. I was present myself in Limerick one night. I was staying 
with a clergyman on the outskirts of the city. We had to walk 
through this district of Pennywell. As we were proceeding home 
some Black-and-Tans passed by us. Just as they turned into another 
street we heard firing, and concluded it was the Black-and-Tans 
firing there. And so it was. They were not attacked. They did 
not state that they were attacked. They were firing to terrorize the 
people. To such an extent was that true that this disrict of Penny- 
well was called the Pennywell sector of the city of Limerick because 
it was so often under fire. 

Then again, on Sunday, the fifteenth of August, on the day on 
which I had discovered about the shooting of Lynch, I went home 
to my father's house, about four miles away. I heard that a part 
of Limerick was on fire. On Monday I went to the city of Limerick 
to investigate the matter. I remained in Limerick on that occasion 
for three days. I went out to the Pennywell district and there I 
saw that, according to my estimation, about two hundred houses 
had been injured, some slightly and others more seriously. I 
found there the marks of bullets, and in a number of instances the 
marks of bombs, where bombs had been hurled through the win- 
dows and exploded on the floors; and other places where the fire 
was still smoldering. Whether the fires were set by matches or 
by direct application of bombs, I do not know. I discovered that 
all that had been done on the day before by the Black-and-Tans. 
They also returned to the city proper and set fire or hurled bombs 
into two business houses, one of which was known as the Railway 
Bar, near the railroad station. 



64 

Some time previous to that, on Queen Street in Limerick, a house 
belonging to a man named Hartney was destroyed at about mid- 
night. The members of the Royal Irish Constabulary, or men in 
their uniform, were seen running away from the house about mid- 
night. Immediately a tremendous explosion took place and blew 
the whole front of the house down, to such an extent that the second 
floor leaned down on the first floor. Fortunately, this was a tea 
shop, where tea and light lunches were served. There was no one 
in the house on this night, and there were no lives lost. 

DESTRUCTION OF CREAMERIES 

Then again, in regard to the burning of creameries. On Tuesday, 
the twenty-second of August, I was passing through the town of 
Knocklong, in the County of Limerick, and there I discovered that 
the creamery was partially destroyed. It was a creamery belonging 
to a man named Cleeves, Sir Thomas Cleeves, a Unionist in politics. 
He lives in the city of Limerick, and had been knighted by the late 
King Edward. This creamery was one of the largest in the south 
of Ireland, probably hiring about fifty or sixty men. and was worth 
about three hundred thousand dollars. I stopped off there when I 
saw the crowd around. It was partially destroyed. I inquired from 
those around what had happened. They told me that at about two 
o'clock on that morning a lorry containing men in the uniform of 
the Royal Irish Constabulary appeared in town, entered the cream- 
ery, and threw bombs in the engine room, which was the center of 
the creamery, and attempted to set fire to other rooms in that 
creamery, and then left. The people, on the departure of the police, 
all turned out, and they extinguished the fire in a very short time 
in the other part of the building, but the bombs had already de- 
stroyed the machinery in the engine room. The central engine 
plant of the creamery was a total wreck, and the creamery was out 
of business and is as yet. The result is that the farmers in that part 
of the country — it is a dairying country— the farmers have been 
compelled to feed the milk which they sent to the creamery to the 
pigs and calves or throw it away. They can no longer supply it to 
the creamery, have it made into butter and cheese, and get a return 
for it. 

I must also state that no compensation has at any time been made 
by the British Government for any of the work of destruction that 
has been proved against its own forces in Ireland, especially in the 
line of the destruction of creameries and the blowing up and burn- 
ing of houses. 



65 

Q, Did you hear of any explanation for the destruction <>l this 
creamery? 

A. Yes, I did. About the date that I arrived in Ireland, a fresh 
correspondent there, one of the representatives of the Paris Matin, 
had an interview with Lord French, the Lieutenant Governor of 
Ireland. This was published in the papers over there, the English 
and .Irish papers. He asked French what the trouble was in Ireland. 
French said the difficulty in Ireland was two hundred thousand 
voung men who should have emigrated. I believe that the only 
possible reason and the explanation that I heard around there was 
that the reason for the destruction of these creameries and other 
business houses was to throw out of employment the young men 
and compel them to leave the country — in addition, of course, to the 
auxiliary reason, the attempt to terrorize out of the minds of the 
people their hope for independence. 

Q. Did the owner of this creamery, whom you state was a 
Unionist, do anything there in that part that would create a hostile 
feeling toward him? 

A. Nothing except that he has been known as a Unionist in 
politics. He has taken no part in politics, however. He owns large 
creameries all over the south of Ireland, and large business estab- 
lishments in Limerick. 

Q. Has he made any statement of this matter? 

A. I am sure he has made a statement to the British Government, 
but no statement of his has been published. 

DRUNKENNESS AMONG BRITISH TROOPS 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: May I ask the question: You have 
been close to some of these soldiers, these Black-and-Tans. Ireland 
is not dry. Have you noticed any drunkenness among them? 

A. I have. I have noticed in the city of Limerick a number of 
soldiers and Black-and-Tans that were very ostensibly under the 
influence of liquor. I have heard it stated in their barracks that 
they were given in their barracks free drink, in addition to their 
ration, especially just before going out on a raid. But I have seen 
them myself very much under the influence of liquor. 

Q. Chairman Howe: On duty or off duty? 

A. It is very difficult to tell. I know that they are almost always 
on duty. 

Commissioner Maurer: Oh, yes; a soldier is almost always on 
duty except when on leave of absence. 



66 

COMMANDING OFFICER INCITES POLICE TO 
VIOLENCE 

The Witness: Then again events occurred over there while I was 
in Ireland. There was a charge made by Divisional Commissioner 
Smyth, of the Royal Irish Constabulary, to members of the police 
force in Listowel, in the County of Kerry. This charge was made 
about the fifth of July. It was a statement he made, a speech he 
made to them in their barracks. There were sixteen police in the 
barracks at the time. They published an account of the statement 
that Mr. Smyth made to them. They signed it and it was published 
in some of the Irish papers and English papers on Saturday, the 
tenth of July. 1 

Q. Senator Walsh: After these police officers had resigned? 

A. After they had resigned. The statement was made while they 
were official members of the police force. Afterwards they made 
it public. I have the statement here. It is brief. I am going to 
read it for you, with your permission. The statement says: 

Mr. Smyth, the Divisional Commissioner, addressed us as fol- 
lows: "Well, men, I have something of interest to tell you, some- 
thing that I am sure you would not wish your wives to hear. I 
am going to lay all my cards on the table. I may reserve one 
card for myself. Now, men, Sinn Fein has had all the sport up 
to the present, and we are going to have the sport now! The police 
have done splendid work, considering the odds against them. The 
police are not sufficiently strong to do anything but hold their bar- 
racks. This is not enough, for as long as we remain on the defen- 
sive, so long will Sinn Fein have the whip hand. We must take 
the offensive and beat Sinn Fein with its own tactics. Martial law 
applying to all Ireland is coming into operation shortly. I am 
promised as many troops from England as I require: thousands 
are coming daily. I am getting" seven thousand police from Eng- 
land. Now, men, what I wish to explain to you is that you are 
to strengthen your comrades in the outstations. If a police barrack 
is burned or if the barrack already occupied is not suitable, then 
the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants 
thrown out in the gutter. Let them die there — the more the merrier. 
Police and military will patrol the country roads at least five nights 
a week. They are not to confine themselves to the main roads, but 
take across the country, lie in ambush, and when civilians are seen 
approaching, shout 'Hands up!' Should the order be not obeyed, 



1 The charge in question was made on the nineteenth of June, but was 
not published until several weeks later. See Report, Appendix "E." 



67 

shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching carry their 
hands in their pockets or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot 
them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent 
persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound 
to get the right parties sometimes. The more you shoot, the better 
I will like you; and I assure you that no policeman will get into 
trouble for shooting any man. Hunger strikers will be allowed to 
die in jail — the more the merrier. Some of them have died already, 
and a damn bad job they were not all allowed to die. As a matter 
of fact, some of them have already been dealt with in a manner 
their friends will never hear about. An emigrant ship left an Irish 
port lately with lots of Sinn Feiners on board. I assure you, men, 
it will never land. That is nearly all I have to say to you. We 
want your assistance in carrying out this scheme and wiping out 
Sinn Fein. Any man who is not prepared to do so is a hindrance 
rather than a help to us, and he had much better leave the job 
at once." 

This statement was made by Commissioner Smyth about the first 
of July in Listowel, before the members of the R. I. C. Their 
spokesman stood out and said: "We are Irishmen. It is evident 
that you must be an Englishman. We will not obey these orders." 
Smyth turned to the others and said, "Arrest this man ! " The others 
refused and said, "If this man is arrested, this room will run red 
with blood." This matter caused considerable comment even in 
England. The subject of conducting an investigation was broached 
in the House of Commons. The speaker of the House refused to 
allow the motion for an investigation to be put, on the grounds that 
it was outside of their sphere and not a matter of very great impor- 
tance. Smyth himself did not deny the statement that had been 
made. He simply said that his words had been misinterpreted. 1 

MILITARY POSSESS UNLIMITED ARBITRARY 

POWER 

Another experience that I wish to give you is one that I had in 
England. It pertains to the affairs in Ireland. On my way on the 
train from London to Holyhead — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do you think it pertains to this inquiry? 

A. Yes, it does. About the fifteenth of July I met a young man 
on the train who told me he was an army officer, a first lieutenant, 



1 In consequence of this speech, Divisional Commissioner Smyth was 
later shot and killed "by parties unknown" at the Cork County Club, 
July 18, 1920. 



68 

about to be sent to take command of his company in Ireland in the 
County of Roscommon. He told me he had been over there before 
and was home on a furlough for two weeks. He said, "I wish to 
God I never had to go over there again." I said, "Why?" He 
said, "Because it is the most distasteful work I have ever done." 
He looked young. I asked him, "How old are you?" He said, 
"I am not quite twenty-two yet, and only out of the military school 
a short time." I said, "What is the nature of your duties in Ire- 
land?" He said, "I command a body of about one hundred fifty 
men in the County of Roscommon. I am to look after that part 
of the country." I said, "Are you given full jurisdiction there?" 
He said, "Yes." I said, "How, for instance, would you act in the 
case of a riot or in case your men were going through the country 
and stones were thrown at them, or you saw people who looked sus- 
picious?" He said, "I have the right to order my soldiers to fire." 
The reason I introduce this is to show that a young man not yet 
twenty-two years of age has the power of life and death in that part 
of the country. 

THE RESTORATION OF ORDER IN IRELAND ACT l 

In regard also to the law under which the people of Ireland, the 
British law under which they are living today, I wish to quote a 
couple of clauses from the Restoration of Order in Ireland Act. 
This order was promulgated and put in force in Ireland on the 
twenty-first or twenty-second of August last. 

"Regulations 2 and 3: Ordained that any Irish subject may be 
arrested and tried by court martial for an act done at any time in 
the past, which act was not at the time it was done but which is 
now an illegal act." 

"Regulation 3, Paragraph 6: Ordained that any Irish subject 
arrested may, on an order made by the competent naval or military 
authority, be detained in any of His Majesty's prisons until thence 
delivered by order of the competent naval or military authority." 

"Regulation 14, Paragraph 2: If any person has in his possession 
any document relating or purporting to relate to the affairs of any 
such association (these are proscribed associations) he shall be 
guilty of an offense against the regulation. Where a person is 
charged with having in his possession any such document and the 
document is found on the premises under his occupancy or under 
his control or on which he has resided, the document shall be pre- 
sumed to have been in his possession unless the contrary is true." 



1 Commonly known as the Coercion Act. 



69 

Regulation 16 abolishes the coroners' inquests. Regulation 4, 
the fifth paragraph, ordains that any Irish subject can be sentenced 
to death for political offenses by these courts martial. 

WITNESS INVITED SOLELY BY COMMISSION 

Q. Senator Walsh: For the sake of having it appear in the 
record, we would like to ask you to say who invited you to testify. 

A. Mr. William MacDonald, the secretary of this Commission. 

Q. Have you come here solely at the request of this Com- 
mission ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. So that no Irish association has invited you? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. The reason for inviting you is that you have recently been 
to Ireland and know what is happening there? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You have spoken to none of the members of this Commission 
until today? 

A. No, I have not. 

Q. So that you have not even communicated with Mr. Mac- 
Donald? 

A. No, sir; I have not. 

The witness was thereupon excused. 



TESTIMONY OF JOHN F. MARTIN 

Chairman Howe: Mr. John F. Martin, of Green Bay, Wisconsin. 

Q. Now, Mr. Martin, will you please qualify yourself profes- 
sionally? 

A. My name is John F. Martin. My residence is Green Bay, 
Wisconsin, and my profession is an attorney-at-law. 

Q. Are you an American citizen? 

A. Born in Green Bay, Wisconsin. 

Q. Born and always lived in Wisconsin? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You have recently been in Ireland? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When did you return? 

A. I sailed from Cove on the twenty-third of September. 

Q. When did you land in Ireland? 

A. I was in Ireland seven days. I might say that I went to 



70 

Europe not specifically to visit Ireland, but as a member of the 
Commission of the Knights of Columbus to present the statue of 
La Fayette and incidentally to visit France and to present to King 
Albert and Cardinal Mercier a medal from the Knights of Colum- 
bus, and to the latter a check. I went from the duties of that 
Commission to Malignes and Brussels, and from there over to 
London. 

Q. How long have you practiced law? 

A. About twenty-five years. 

Q. What offices have you held in Wisconsin? 

A. I have never held any office in Wisconsin. 

Q. You have always been a plain practitioner of the law? 

A. Yes, very plain. 

Q. What office have you in the Knights of Columbus? 

A. I am a member of the Supreme Council of the Knights of 
Columbus. 

Q. How long were you in Ireland? 

A. Seven days. I went into Dublin on the sixteenth of Septem- 
ber. My observations in Dublin would probably be not worth 
while. They were similar to those of Mr. Morgan. I wanted to 
visit Limerick, which was the birthplace of my mother; but I was 
advised that there was railway trouble. I wished also to visit 
Tipperary, but was informed that I could do that better by auto 
than by train. So I arranged to go by auto, accompanied by a 
British subject, Mr. J. J. Leary, of Saskatoon. 

Q. You say he was a British subject? Of what nationality? 

A. He was a Canadian of Irish parentage. 

THE WAR ZONE AROUND LIMERICK 

We left our bags in Dublin and went by auto over to Tipperary, 
and then sought a conveyance to Limerick. We had considerable 
difficulty in procuring a conveyance to Limerick, but finally, after 
very diligent search, we got a man who promised to take us over. 
When he came to the hotel he had a very dilapidated Ford car, 
with half the hood gone and with one headlight that would not 
work. Without knowing anything of the experiences to encounter, 
we went along to Limerick Junction and Oola. We suddenly came 
across a great stone wall built across the road at Pallas. This 
stone wall was about six feet high and three or four feet thick, with 
an opening in the center just wide enough to permit a car to pass 
through. To the right-hand end of it, it circled around a house 
built up close to the road. I might say that many houses in that 



71 

country are built up close, to the road. It was about a two-story 
house with a flat roof. We got within perhaps a hundred feet of 
this stone wall when we saw six or eight men in uniform back of 
the wall. Three of them stepped to their rifles, which were resting 
on the wall, and one to a machine gun. One man was parading 
on the rather flat roof with a rifle, and all four were trained directly 
on us. The men behind the wall were aiming at us, and the man 
with the machine gun as well. They yelled at us, accompanied by 
the command to halt. I might suggest that less would have stopped 
us. After they had us thus covered, three men in uniform came 
out to search us. They did a very thorough job, searched the car, 
asked some questions, particularly of the driver. They wanted 
especially to learn where we were going, and if we expected to come 
back through there that night. They finally let us go with the 
statement that we must get back by nine o'clock if we expected to 
get through there. We decided we would be back before nine 
o'clock. 

We went over to Limerick and passed about an hour driving 
about Limerick. Owing to the nine o'clock restriction at Pallas, 
we abandoned my intention of visiting a little town not far from 
Limerick. On the streets we observed not hundreds but thousands 
of men in uniform, it seemed to me. As we were driving along, 
suddenly there sped out in the street in front of our car six, seven, 
or eight large fellows dressed in black uniforms. One whipped a 
revolver out of his back pocket and commanded the driver to halt. 
He did not stop the engine, because it was almost impossible to 
start the old engine after it was once stopped. They insisted, and 
the officer in charge of them commanded him to stop the engine. 
The officer became very abusive, and asked the driver some questions 
about his permit to drive about in that part of the country. The 
young man was not the owner of the car, but only the driver. It 
seemed that his permit was in the name of the owner. The official 
spokesman said, "Young man, you will go along with us." This 
was a little disconcerting to us, in view of the fact that our baggage 
was at Limerick Junction, twenty-five miles away. I ventured to 
say something to the officer: "Perhaps you overlooked the fact that 
I am an American citizen. I am here under a passport" — which I 
produced and showed to them — "and this young man is under my 
employ. We hired him this afternoon to take us over here and 
bring us back to Limerick Junction. This man with me is a Cana- 
dian citizen. I presume that he has a right to travel here. I am 
going to object to your right to interfere with my progress. I am 
due back at Limerick Junction tonight." He examined my passport 



72 

and rather insolently tossed it back to me. I said, "I have further 
proof" — a ticket that I bought at Dublin for Mallow. He looked 
that over and finally he turned to the driver of the car and said: 
"On account of these men with you, you may go on this time, but 
don't let us find you here again or you will not get through." 

We hastened back to get through Pallas before the curfew hour. 
Incidentally, the lights did not work, and we had some tire trouble. 
We got to Pallas a little late, but explained that tire trouble had 
detained us, and we were allowed to go through without headlights. 
A little later we observed a lorry coming down the road with great 
large headlights. Our driver pulled alongside the road. The lorry 
stopped and searched us, but found nothing objectionable. We 
were allowed to go on, and got back to our hotel. 

RAIDS, TERRORISM, AND DESTRUCTION IN IRISH 

CITIES 

The next day we went down to Killarney. We found the largest 
hotel there — I think it is the Southwestern, the largest hotel there — 
commandeered by the military and surrounded by a barbed-wire 
entanglement, around which were soldiers and officers parading. 

The next morning at ten o'clock we saw in front of that place 
eighty or ninety soldiers, and saw them march down and make a 
raid on the Presentation Convent, a place where they manufacture 
a very special brand of Irish lace, the excuse being that they sus- 
pected that firearms were there. 

We went from there to Cork, where we saw a greater number of 
motor lorries than at any other place. They were driving through 
the streets at a rapid rate of speed, sending the people helter-skelter, 
and promiscuously bent on frightening them. They were loaded 
as has been described to you before. The rear part of the lorry 
has a body, say, three feet high. In this the men were standing or 
looking over the top of the body, all with their rifles ready. We 
were told that night that two men were shot because they had failed 
to comply with the curfew law, which hour is ten o'clock there. 

We went to Cove, from which we were going to sail on the 
twenty-third. We learned down there that the town had been sacked 
and a reprisal made because of the killing of a soldier at a little 
town, I think Midleton, about fifteen miles outside of Cove. Hav- 
ing the conditions described to us by the young lady in the hotel, 
we walked down the street to make some observations. I personally 
counted, beginning at the Queen's Hotel and going up the street, 
within five blocks eighty plate-glass windows broken on both sides 



73 

of the street. The little round holes in the broken windows looked 
like bullet holes, but we were informed that they were not; that 
they were made by what they call trench hammers. The lady who 
lived up at the end of where this district began said that late at night 
a band of soldiers came charging up the street. The officer in 
charge said, "Not a window left from here down to the station," 
and the work began. 

Q. Chairman Howe: They were broken by mallets? 

A. Yes; most of them were small, round holes, apparently like 
the hole of a stone. They said it was a small, round hammer that 
struck it. 

That is all that I think would be of any interest to you. I left 
there on the afternoon of the twenty-third. 

POLITICAL UNANIMITY OF IRISH PEOPLE UN- 
AFFECTED BY RELIGIOUS ISSUES 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: What did you find among the people, 
a spirit of terror? 

A. Yes, I found that. But if I may give the results of my 
conversations, there was an absolute unanimity of opinion among 
the people that they were going to stick it out until they got the 
right to govern themselves. I talked, going out of Dublin on the 
train, with a man who appeared to be a very distinguished gentle- 
man, who told about the raid that took place at his home about 
a week before, while he was away at the races. A dozen or more 
men, all masked, came about midnight, searched his house for 
munitions and firearms, and finally found one sporting gun. His 
daughters were very much aroused and excited. The next day the 
military came along for the same purpose. I said, "I assumed that 
when you told about this first raid, you were speaking about the 
military?" He said, "Oh, no, I was speaking about the Sinn 
Feiners, and I was damn glad they got there first, for I would 
rather have them get it than the military. They probably heard 
the military intended to raid my house for arms, and so they beat 
them to it." He said, "My name is Kirk. I am not a Catholic. 
You Americans think that we are not in agreement over here because 
in some places there have been religious differences. But when it 
comes to politics we are all Irish, and we believe in the right of 
Irishmen to govern themselves." 

At Killarney we stopped at the Glede Hotel. Mr. Graham, a 
Scotchman, was the proprietor. He said, "We are all of one thought 
politically, and religion does not enter into it at all." 



74 

WITNESS COMES SOLELY AT REQUEST OF COM- 
MISSION 

Q. Senator Walsh: How did you happen to become a witness 
here? 

A. I don't know. I got a telegram from here signed William 
MacDonald. 1 

Q. That was all? 

A. Yes. I am a little curious to know how you knew that I 
was in Ireland. 

Q. It was through newspaper reports. You came solely at the 
Commission's request? 

A. I came at Mr. MacDonald's request; at his request only. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How much territory did you cover in 
Ireland? 

A. I went to Dublin for two days, and then down to Limerick, 
about one hundred miles, and then down by train to Killarney, and 
over to Cork, and then down to Cove. 

Q. Two or three hundred miles altogether? 

A. I should think so, about that. 

Q. These conditions you have described are fairly typical in 
those towns? 

A. I think they are much worse in the north of Ireland. By 
reading the newspapers after I got back I find that we are not 
getting very much information over here. They are much worse 
in the north of Ireland. 

PEOPLE ESTABLISHING THEIR OWN POLITICAL 
INSTITUTIONS 

Q. Do you think the people are forming their own civil 
processes there? 

A. Yes. A young man of our party was fortunate enough to 
get into a Republican court, and he found that the people of Ireland 
are submitting their questions to their own courts and are perfectly 
glad to do so. 

Q. There is a de facto political life there? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer:. Do you know anything about the 
industrial conditions of Ireland? 

A. Yes, a little. 



1 Dr. William MacDonald, Secretary of the Commission. 



75 

Senator Walsh: Don't you think that a witness like Mr. Hackett 
could give us more about that? 

The Witness: The industrial life was very prosperous until the 
attacks on the creameries got in vogue, and that, of course, is putting 
them out of business. 

The witness was thereupon excused. 



TESTIMONY OF REV. DR. JAMES H. 
COTTER 

Chairman Howe: Reverend James H. Cotter, of Ironton, Ohio. 

Q. What is your full name? 

A. Reverend Doctor James H. Cotter. 

Q. Where are you stationed? 

A. Saint Laurence Church, Ironton, Ohio. 

Q. You are the pastor there? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you lived in that town? 

A. Thirty-one years, over thirty-one years. In addition to being 
pastor, I would say that I am on the staff of The Columbiad, the 
Knights of Columbus organ. 

Q. That is to say that you are a member of the editorial staff 
of the Knights of Columbus official organ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long have you been a Catholic priest? 

A. Thirty-eight years. 

Q. All of that time your work has been confined to the State 
of Ohio? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. County Tipperary, Ireland. 

Q. How old were you when you came to America? 

A. Fifteen years. 

Q. Have you recently visited Ireland? 

A. Yes, sir. I have been there for eight weeks exactly. 

Q. What months? 

A. From the twenty-third of July to the twenty-third of Sep- 
tember. 

Q. How long since you last visited Ireland? 

A. Twenty-three years. 

Q. What was the occasion of your visit to Ireland at this time? 

A. I went to visit Ireland because I was anxious to see for my- 
self the conditions there. 



76 

Q. Not for the purpose of printing in any newspaper? 

A. Only as a result. I was for six years the editor of the Union 
and Times, of Buffalo, and I was then for three years editor of the 
Columbia, of Columbus, Ohio, and then for a while I was on the 
staff of the Columbiad. 

Q. So that you were desirous, for personal reasons and also 
for newspaper purposes, of studying the conditions in Ireland? 

A. Yes, so that I would know the questions intelligently and 
could discuss them editorially. 

Q. Will you relate to us your personal investigations of lawless- 
ness and military conditions in Ireland? 

A. When I went to Ireland first I landed in Dublin on the 
twenty-third of July. I was not long in Ireland before I learned 
that England's sole purpose was to tempt the Volunteers * into the 
open in order to mercilessly shoot them down. Ireland's sole pur- 
pose — it was a surprise to me, knowing that they were an enthusi- 
astic and political race — was to curb their passions, their indigna- 
tion, and anger. 

NO RELIGIOUS QUESTION INVOLVED IN REPUB- 
LICAN MOVEMENT 

The first question that I desired to study was the religious ques- 
tion, naturally, as a sequence of my own profession. As my mother 
was a Protestant, I went to see my niece, who was married to an 
Episcopal rector, Reverend William Stewart, of Keenish Rectory, 
Enniskillen. That was as far north as I dared to go. 

Q. How far north is that? 

A. It is in Fermanagh, one of the nine counties of Ulster. 

I went to see my niece, who is married to this gentleman, and I 
was very curious to fathom his mind, since he lived in the north 
and differed from me in religious principle. I found him very 
much in sympathy with the Republican movement, and disowning 
the fact that there was anything like a religious difference in the 
movement. I in his presence drew the distinction between the 
Protestants of Ireland and the Orangemen. I held that the Protes- 
tants of Ireland were good and very sincere men, who served their 
God through their fellow men; while the Orangemen had only a 
creed of hatred begotten by the devil. 

I also went to see some relatives in Ballyeagan. I found the 
same conditions there. They did not ask what their neighbor's 



1 The Irish Volunteers, the nucleus from which the Irish Republican 
Army has been formed. 



77 

faith was when it was a question of devotion to country and a desire 
for liberty. And at Ballingarry, where I have some more Protes- 
tant relatives, I found the same thing is true there. 

I also met some editors, or rather authors, since I was an author 
myself. I met Darrell Figgis, a Protestant author in Ireland. He 
holds a position in the Republican Government of Ireland. I also 
met Erskine Childers, whose book, "Military Rule in Ireland," I 
have here and with your permission will place in evidence. 

Q. Is that recently published? 

A. It is a revised edition of "Military Rule in Ireland," pub- 
lished not long ago. 

Q. What is the date of publication? 

A. Mr. MacDonald: Here is the date, 1920. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is the author of that a member of the Re- 
publican Party? 

A. He holds a state office in the Republican Government of 
Ireland. 

Q. Do you happen to know his religion? 

A. Protestant. These are all Protestants. 

Q. You are now dealing with your experiences with Protestant 
people in Ireland? 

A. Yes. As far as I have gone they are all Protestant people in 
different parts of Ireland, in the north and in the south. Mr. Figgis 
lives in Dublin. Mrs. Bryce entertained me for an afternoon in her 
home in Bantry Bay. Mrs. Bryce is the sister-in-law of Ambassador 
Bryce, who was in this country. She was such a radical Sinn 
Feiner that I have learned she was once put in jail. She was going 
to Wales to lecture on the labor question, and while going she was 
arrested and put in jail for five hours. Then I met Mrs. Waddell, 
of Achill, in western Ireland. She is one who is heart and head 
with the Republican movement. 

Q. She is a Protestant also? 

A. Yes, Senator, I saw Protestants especially because I wanted 
to get the other side of the question, to see if there was any truth 
at all in the assertion that it was a religious question. 

Q. Chairman Howe: This Mrs. Waddell? 

A. Mrs. Waddell is a very wealthy lady whose estates are in 
Russia. She lives in the west of Ireland. Her estates there are in 
Galway. 

Then there is Mr. Biggs, a Protestant gentleman of Bantry, who, 
because he put a notice in the paper sympathizing with the move- 
ment and deprecating English propaganda, particularly the brand 
Americans got, his store, valued at thirty thousand pounds, was 



78 

burned immediately afterwards — I think it was the next day or the 
next night, immediately after his declaration in the local paper. 
Then his magnificent home was commandeered by the military 
some short time after the burning of his store. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was any judicial action taken to determine 
who burned and destroyed his store and place of business? 

A. It was generally understood, and although no court was ever 
held on it, it was understood that it was the work of the military 
police. 

Q. What was the date of that destruction, approximately? 

A. It was previous, Senator, to my going to Ireland. 

Q. Do you know how long before? 

A. Something like a week before. 

Q. Did you see that man himself? 

A. No, I did not interview him. 

Q. Just talked with him? 

A. No, I did not see him, but it was very well known there. It 
was taken as a maxim that it was the work of the military as a 
matter of revenge. 

Q. For his public utterances of sympathy with the Republic? 

A. For his public utterances of sympathy. 

CONDITION IN ULSTER "LABORIOUSLY ARTI- 
FICIAL" 

To Ulster I did not go, but I learned that the condition there 
was laboriously artificial — I mean as an argument against the Re- 
publican form of government for Ireland. It is a mixture of fanati- 
cism and the cry, "To hell with the Pope," in order to keep the 
laborers in the linen factories of Belfast away from the realization 
of the hell from which they themselves were suffering. Some of 
the girls there are working for a miserable pittance in water up 
to their ankles all day. It is well known that these linen factories 
are the subjects of great profit. Among the proprietors are Sir 
Edward Carson and Bonar Law. Regarding what I saw myself — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Before you take up that, Doctor, did you 
learn from these people with whom you had interviews as to the 
sentiment among their neighbors and parishioners, among people 
of Protestant faith? 

The Witness: Will you kindly repeat the question? 

Q. You have told us of the sentiment that these individuals have 
produced to you. Did they communicate to you the sentiment 
among their Protestant neighbors and parishioners? 



79 

A. Yes, they remarked that their neighbors did not know what 
the faith of their other neighbors was; that they were all for the 
Republic. They were not interested in the other things. It was an 
issue which they met on common ground, and did not bother their 
heads about inquiring as to the religious convictions of the other- 
parties interested. 

Q. Did you meet any Protestant men or women, or did you hear 
of any, that are out of sympathy with the Republican movement? 

A. Not one. As I stated, it is a laboriously artificial condition 
that they have a great difficulty to preserve in its present artificial 
state in the north. 

Q. You indicated that that is due to the efforts on the part of 
the manufacturing interests to divert their employees' attention from 
organizing so as to better their conditions? 

A. Yes. And that was confirmed by a passenger coming over, 
a Protestant gentleman who was leaving Belfast because of the 
fanaticism that was guilty of such wild work there. He was leaving 
Belfast forever and coming to this country. He confirmed the 
thought that I had got elsewhere. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Now will you continue? 

MURDER OF MAYOR MAC CURTAIN CLOAKED BY 

HYPOCRISY 

A. Yes. I want you to know, Senator, very particularly about 
the murder of Mayor MacCurtain, of Cork, for the reason that a 
thousand pounds reward — oh, yes, here it is; this affair, the burn- 
ing of Mr. Biggs's place of business was on July twenty-sixth — 
a thousand pounds reward was offered in the American papers for 
the arrest and conviction of the Sinn Feiners that murdered Mayor 
MacCurtain, of Cork. I was very anxious to know how that ques- 
tion stood, because of the hypocrisy that cloaked the crime. So I 
went to Cork and interviewed one of the jurors. I will not mention 
his name, for the reason that I would be fearful that something 
might happen to him as a result of the interview. He said: "Dr. 
Cotter, that street was guarded by the military. The converging 
street was guarded by the police. And in from the band of police 
went eight policemen and murdered the mayor of Cork" — Mayor 
MacCurtain, who preceded immediately Mayor MacSwiney; as 
afterwards his sister-in-law told me in Brixton Prison in London, 
murdered him with his babe in his arms. A policeman's button 
was found on the floor, but never was the circumstance considered 
at all. The verdict of the jury was that Mayor MacCurtain was 



80 

murdered by Lloyd George, by Field Marshal French, Lord Lieu- 
tenant of Ireland; by Ian MacPherson, by Swanzy, the district in- 
spector of police, and some unknown members of the Royal Irish 
Constabulary. 

Q. Was that the verdict of the coroner's jury? 

A. That was the verdict of the coroner's jury. 

Q. Formed under English law? 

A. Yes, before they were abolished. They are abolished now. 

Q. I suppose that the verdicts were so often against the English 
Government that they thought it wise to abolish them? 

A. I do not know why, but the fact is that they were abolished. 

Again I say that I have a hesitancy in mentioning names of per- 
sons, because I believe it would be productive of disaster to them. 
Just as you know of men whom you have summoned and who will 
not get their passport, and who are in jail; like the guard of honor 
of eight who were sent over to accompany the remains of Mayor 
MacSwiney and are now in jail; they never came back from Eng- 
land. 

DUM-DUM BULLET FIRED AT MISS MACSWINEY 

In Cork I was shown by Miss Mary MacSwiney, the sister of the 
late Lord Mayor, I was shown by her a bullet that flattens as it 
strikes. It was fired and intended for her, but went wide of the 
mark. This was a dum-dum bullet. It was not made in Ireland. 
There, instead of having a munitions factory, if you carry a gun 
you get two years or anywhere around that. 

NIGHTLY TERRORISM IN CORK 

The curfew is the cloak for night work. In Cork first came down 
from the barracks armed lorries, armed motor cars. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you see these yourself? 

A. Yes. At ten o'clock or a little before ten — ten o'clock was 
the hour for the curfew, but they used to come a little before — 
these motor cars filled with soldiers with their guns at the ready and 
fixed bayonets. They would be accompanied often with tanks and 
searchlights. 

Q. And this happened every night? 

A. Every night. And then the night made hideous with shots 
and shouts, making you tremble because of the indifference of the 
parties themselves and the lack of responsibility, as the sequel 
proves. 



81 

Q. Where did this procession go? 

A. Down Patrick Street, the principal street in Cork. 

REPRISALS BASED ON MANUFACTURED 
PRETENSE 

Now, to give you an instance of the way they found a pretense 
for what they called reprisals. A reprisal is a word that has an 
English and not a general meaning. It is an elastic term not found 
in our dictionary, but used by England at the present hour to justify 
any barbarity that has no connection whatsoever outside of manu- 
factured reason. Right opposite the Victoria Hotel, on the side- 
walk, there was a hand grenade thrown — on the sidewalk! The 
soldiery made this a reason for raiding the Cork Examiner's office, 
directly opposite the Victoria Hotel, and a shop called the Black 
Thorn Shop, where one hundred pounds' worth of stuff was taken. 
That night the raid was made, and they made the hand grenade 
the reason for that action. The hand grenade, however, came on 
the sidewalk. You have to suppose either one of two things: either 
that the man who owned the house had thrown a hand grenade from 
his own house at his own window, or that a man on the sidewalk 
threw it at his toe. It evidently came from the center of the street 
because of its marked destination. And yet that was made a reason 
for raiding the newspaper office and the Black Thorn Shop. I give 
this as an instance of a manufactured reason for wanton conduct. 

Q. Do I understand that the claim was made that this hand 
grenade was thrown from the window of this establishment at a 
soldier or at an officer? 

A. It could not have happened. 

Q. But was that the claim made? 

A. Yes, that was the claim made. 

Q. But you are saying why the claim was invented? 

A. Yes; the claim was that they were justified in the reprisals 
because the hand grenade was thrown at them. How, nobody could 
figure out. 

Q. But this happened while you were there? 

A. Just the day before I came to Cork they were raiding the 
Cork Examiner's office. When Mr. Ryan, who owned the Black 
Thorn Shop, reported the theft of one hundred pounds' worth of 
his property to the general in charge of the troops, he was told 
that his application was not mannerly. The letter was pasted up in 
the shop window, and that was the gist of it all. 



82 

SOLDIERS EQUIPPED FOR WAR LINE STREETS 

From Cork I went to Queenstown. It was about the end of July 
or the first of August. I went to the boat regatta that they have 
there. In the evening the little boys, as part of the play of the 
day, had a donkey race. They raced down the street on donkeys. 
They had to go through a line of soldiers with loaded guns and 
fixed bayonets. I saw that from the window of the Rob Roy Hotel. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you learn that that was a nightly occur- 
rence for these soldiers with fixed bayonets to be on the main 
thoroughfare? 

A. They are always on the main thoroughfares whenever they 
can accommodate them. For instance, in Limerick they were having 
a mass in one of the churches at— 

Q. Did you see that? 

A. Yes, I saw it. 

Senator Walsh: We only want what you saw personally. 

The Witness: I was on the outside. The crowd came out of the 
church onto the street. While they were saying mass the soldiers 
came and stacked arms and fixed bayonets and made sounds to 
indicate to people that they were there. And then they picked up 
their arms and passed on. It was really an interruption of a re- 
ligious service. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is there anything else in Queenstown besides 
the instance you refer to? 

A. Nothing, except that when they were having their little dance 
— some little girls had a step dance on the platform after the boat 
race — the soldiers were massed on the platform right near with their 
loaded guns and fixed bayonets. 

RAIDS, REPRISALS, AND KILLINGS IN LIMERICK 
AND GALWAY 

In Limerick five times in succession they raided at two o'clock 
in the morning the house of a lady and her three daughters. The 
last time the Black-and-Tans came in there perfectly drunk. They 
did not know what they were doing. One of them took a bayonet 
and was ripping up an oak floor. 

Q. From whom did you get this information? 

A. From the parties themselves. 

Q. You visited the house? 

A. Yes, I visited the house. 

Q. How soon after these raids had been made? 

A. About a week following. 



83 

Q. What was the pretended purpose of these raids? 

A. The pretended purpose was to search for arms or for persons 
carrying arms or for those who were on the run— that is, those who, 
if they were caught, would be put in jail, and so they sleep away 
from their homes. 

The curfew was put on in Limerick after two drunken soldiers 
had been relieved of their revolvers. A whole street called Kerry 
Row, a street where everybody was exceedingly poor, was raided in 
reprisal. I went into their houses and saw the results and sympa- 
thized with them. The windows were all broken and everything 
smashed. The butts of guns and bullets did not have far to go in 
order to destroy everything those poor people had. 

Q. What was the occasion of this destruction? 

A. The taking of two revolvers from drunken soldiers. 

Q. This followed that act? 

A. This followed that act. I mention it to show that there is no 
comparison between the occurrence of the act and its punishment. 
This whole street had nothing to do with the couple of boys who 
took away their revolvers. Besides the houses which were fired 
there, a beautiful window set in a tower opposite the Dominican 
Church was destroyed. 

Q. By what was it struck? 

A. By the military. 

Q. By what weapon? 

A. I would suppose by hand grenades. 

In Galway I saw what was to be seen. I was in the railroad 
station after returning from the Islands of Aran. The boat was 
very late. It was nearly twelve o'clock. Suddenly we heard a sharp 
report. I was with Father Kelley, of Spiddle, a place near Galway. 
I said to him, "These are shots." Three to five shots were then 
heard. Then a pause and six or eight more shots. Then very 
quickly a Black-and-Tan went out on the platform that leads to 
the back door of the railway hotel, and when the people were 
coming to get the papers off the train at midnight, he used his 
revolver in any way, shooting in any direction. He shot a young 
fellow named Mulvoy. I saw him the next day. He was shot 
directly through the temple. 

Q. Where was this young boy? 

A. On the platform getting the papers with the rest. They had 
brought up the papers giving the news of Mayor MacSwiney's con- 
dition. 

Q. The train comes in at midnight and they were trying to buy 
the newspapers? 



34 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you see him the next day? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you talk with him? 

A. No, he was dead. 

Senator Walsh: I beg your pardon. I thought he was only 
wounded. 

The Witness: A civilian jumped on the back of the Black-and- 
Tan and tried to get the revolver out of his hand. He tried to twist 
his hand so as to shoot the man on his back. While he was trying 
to do that he wounded a couple of bystanders. 

Q. That is, after the soldier had shot Mulvoy? 

A. Yes, someone jumped on the back of the Black-and-Tan, and 
while he was trying to twist the revolver from him, he wounded two 
others. 

Q. So far as you know, Mulvoy was an innocent bystander. He 
was not connected with politics? He had not been too patriotic in 
any way? 

A. I do not know. So far as I know, no. There virtue is re- 
garded as a vice. I would say, Senator, in reply to your question, 
that all young men are patriotic. 

Q. So that no matter in what direction they shoot, they are apt 
to shoot a patriot? 

A. Yes, sir. After he had wounded a couple of men, a civilian 
shot him. An English officer on the platform said it was the only 
thing to do with the scoundrel. In every civilized land under the 
sun, an action like that would be considered the right thing to do. 
But it begot reprisals. These reprisals had no connection with the 
deed and were entirely out of proportion to it, even as punishment, 
and utterly unmerited, because it was a virtuous act to kill the 
murderer. 

Q. Now, what were the reprisals? 

A. The reprisals were about two hours afterward — about two 
o'clock — 

Q. I understand that you were present and saw this shooting? 

A. Yes, sir. Two hours afterwards. Lights were put out at 
once, because they thought they would come, and so half-way pre- 
pared for their coming. With the lights out in my room, I peeped 
out under the blinds and saw what appeared to be about two hun- 
dred fifty soldiers or police halted at the front door of the hotel. 
Immediately after the order "Halt!" came the word "Fire!" So 
they shot there for several hours through the street, terrifying 



85 

everyone. I left my bed and lay under the window — it was a stone 
building — to escape a possible bullet. 

Q. How long did you stay in that position? 
A. About an hour and a half. 

Q. I suppose you thought that was the safest place from a stray 
bullet through the window? 

A. That is the place that is generally advised in Ireland — under 
the window. 

Next day I learned that after shooting up the street, they went to 
a Mr. Broderick's house, locked an old woman of sixty-five or 
seventy years of age — no, not locked, but shut her into a little room 
in her own house, poured petrol into the parlor and everything 
near, and set fire to her house. I went to see the ruin the next day. 

Q. What happened to that fire? Did they burn the house down? 

A. They did not burn the house down, because some neighbors 
dared to come out of their houses and extinguish the flames. But 
the piano was burned, and a trunk that belonged to a woman who 
had just come from America, who has been fifty years here, and it 
burned her trunk. From Broderick's they went to a house where a 
man named Quirk was lodging. They took him out of bed, did not 
give him any time to dress, tied him to a lamp post, and shot him 
nine times below the belt, literally disemboweling him. An inquest 
was forbidden to be held. I have forgotten to say that they de- 
stroyed the Galway Express office, smashed all the type, and de- 
stroyed the linotype. 

Q. That was a newspaper office? 

A. Yes, a newspaper office. 

Q. Did that newspaper have Republican sympathies? 

A. Republican sympathies? Yes, sir. 

Q. This all happened in one night after that railroad station 
affair in the town of Galway? 

A. Yes, sir. I went the next morning to the Galway Express 
office. The owner of the paper was picking up pieces of broken 
type off the floor. They gathered together enough to print a paper 
on a sheet about the size of that (indicating a sheet of business 
letter size), and in big block letters on the top of the sheet was 
"Keep Cool," which is really the philosophy of the passiveness that 
Ireland is practicing right now. Mr. O'Day, a solicitor of Galway, 
for the sake of the good name of the community, inaugurated an 
informal inquiry into the happenings, and his house was bombed — 
or, rather, his office was bombed — the following night. And so it 
goes, and the story is kept from the rest of the world. 



86 

UNANIMITY OF IRISH SYMPATHIES 

Q. Do you know the political sympathies of this last party? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What were they? 

A. Like the sympathies of everyone I met in Ireland, Protestant 
and Catholic — Republican. 

Q. Republican? 

A. Republican. It is the only government. 

Q. The only civil government? 

A. Yes, civil government. 

Q. That is, you found no vestige of British civil authority in 
Ireland at all? 

A. Absolutely none, except this meaningless madness that is the 
work of government. 

Q. Chairman Howe: You say you met no one in Ireland that is 
not in sympathy with the Republican form of government? 

A. None at all. 

Q. That is literally true? 

A. Literally true. 

Q. You mean to say that you never met anyone at all who is not 
sympathetic with the Republican form of government? 

A. No, absolutely none at all. 

Q. You mean to say that you could not find them? 

A. Yes, I could not find them. 

A SOLOMON'S JUDGMENT IN REPUBLICAN COURT 

I asked them about their courts. They said that one court gave a 
regular Solomon's judgment. Two sons were disputing about a 
legacy. The judgment of the court was that the eldest should divide 
the property and the younger take his choice. It was very simple, 
but it was right. 

LYNCH MURDERED IN BED BY POLICE 

I was in Dublin when Mr. Jack Lynch was killed in the Exchange 
Hotel. 

Q. Do you know the circumstances of that? 

A. Yes, sir. I was not there to see it, but I know from every 
mouth. 

Q. You investigated it? 

A. Yes. Six to eight police — I do not know the exact number, 
but it is immaterial — or rather six soldiers came to the door of 



87 

the hotel at two o'clock in the morning, asked to see the register, 
looked for a name, and went to room number six. They left. 
Nobody heard any sound. And some half hour or so afterwards 
two policemen came and knocked at the hotel and said to the night 
clerk: "We are going to guard room number six, where a man lies 
dying. The military told us to come there." All the next day they 
stood guard at that room, and did not even admit the proprietor 
of the hotel into that room. They supposed the man was dying. 
He was shot in the throat. Nobody heard the shot, because they 
blanketed the revolver. The military held the inquest. The coroner 
was first notified not to perform the functions of his office. 

Q. Senator Walsh : Do you know what was the pretended reason 
for attacking Lynch? 

A. He was an officer in the movement. 

Q. He was an officer of the Irish Republican movement? 

A. Yes, he was an officer. 

Q. Had he committed any outlaw act that you know? 

THE PURPOSE OF THE IRISH VOLUNTEERS 

A. None whatever. The purpose of the Volunteer is to incul- 
cate three virtues in a very practical way: the first, truth; the 
second, sobriety; and the third, patriotism. There is no officer in 
the Volunteer army that touches 'drink. 

Q. And I suppose that they appreciate that the whole success of 
their movement, if it can be called successful, is to proceed orderly 
and without the commission of murder? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. In other words, there is the highest form of passive resistance 
that has been ever attempted in the world? 

A. Yes, sir. 

To that same barracks from which the police came to take 
charge of that room where the man was dying, as it was supposed, 
I went to report to the police, as I was ordered to do on leaving 
the ship at Liverpool. The man who was at the desk had evidently 
been imbibing. The lines of the face indicated it. He said to me, 
"I will give you ten days to get to Darlington. If you do not get 
there in ten days, report to the police, for they will be looking for 
you." I was going there to see a relative. 

Q. He knew you were going there? 

A. Yes, I told him I was going to that place. 



88 

CRUELTY DRIVES WOMAN INSANE 

In Tuam there was a magnificent draper's place, the finest shop 
in Tuam, a splendid cut-stone building valued at forty thousand 
pounds; the contents, with the building itself, was destroyed by the 
police. The wife of the proprietor — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you see it? 

A. This is what I did not see, but got from others who did see it. 

Q. How soon after the occurrence happened? 

A. About two or three weeks. 

Q. This establishment was destroyed? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Who was the owner of it? 

A. I cannot remember the name — something like Carey. It was 
the principal building in town. 

Q. Did you see it? 

A. Yes, I saw it. 

Q. And when you arrived there a few weeks later you investi- 
gated? 

A. Yes, sir. I heard about it, and then when I got there, went 
and saw it and investigated. 

At Tuam the wife of the proprietor escaped from the burning 
building with her child in her arms, when she was covered by a 
loaded gun in the hands of a policeman and told to get back there. 
She escaped over a high wall in the rear to a neighboring premises. 
As a result of her awful experience, she is insane. 

Q. Where is she stationed — in what institution? 

A. I do not know. 

Q. You did not see her? This is what the neighbors told you? 

A. This is what the neighbors told. But I generally ask people 
who are intelligent to get the straight of it. 

Q. Did you learn what had been done to incur such a thing? 

A. Absolutely nothing. There were two policemen shot a day 
or two before. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Up to the date of the burning of this 
man's home, nothing had happened to call forth a reprisal that 
was known to the general public? 

A. Nothing at all. 

Q. Was this man obviously connected with the Republican 
government or movement in Ireland? 

A. I do not know. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Will your testimony take much longer? 

A. Very short, sir. 



89 

In that same town a Mr. Casey, who identified himself very 
prominently in the Republican movement, told me that in a raid 
on his house his wife was made to walk barefoot over the back 
yard that was full of glass. They extracted fourteen pieces of 
glass from her feet. She was confined the week afterwards and 
bore her first son. 

Mrs. Annan Bryce, the lady whose name I have already given, 
held a country dance in her garage, and the next night her garage 
was burned down. 

Q. Is this the sister-in-law of Ambassador James Bryce? 

A. A sister-in-law. 

Q. Did she tell you this herself? 

A. Yes, she told me this herself, and wrote a letter giving the 
details to the papers of Glengariff. 

Q. Have you a copy of that letter? 

A. I am not sure. But I can send it to you, whether I have 
it or not. I saw it upon arriving in Glengariff. 

Arthur Griffith, the vice-president of the Republic, told me that 
England was planning a massacre. Before I left Ireland I found 
that his words were true. I found that G. K. Chesterton, the lead- 
ing scholar in London, in his magazine, The New Witness, exposes 
the plot entered into by the House of Commons after their last 
adjournment prior to the present session. Ireland has been gen- 
erally devastated. Her railroads have been stopped by Sir Eric 
Geddes, the brother to the Ambassador here. The way they stop 
them is to send soldiers with loaded guns to the train ; and then 
the train does not start. The engineers will not start them when 
they are used for military purposes. The creameries, you have 
heard about them being destroyed. It is a plot to destroy the 
economic life of the people. 

There is no use going over about the boy being shot going to 
bring his mother to church, and about the Midletown boys who 
were taken to the Cork jail and were strapped back to back. The 
officer in charge took it into his head to see if one bullet would 
kill the two men, and shot them, the bullet going through the 
back of one and through the shoulder of the other. 1 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you investigate this yourself? 

A. No; I heard of it from responsible people. 

Senator Walsh : I think we should rather have things that, as a 
newspaper man, you have investigated for personal reasons rather 



x The Buckley case. See affidavit of Bartholomew Buckley and index. 



90 

than general comment about what had happened here and there, 
The Witness: In England I found that the English were as much 
deceived about conditions as the Americans. I found that the 
government dare not tell the people, noble and humane, dare not 
tell them the truth about Ireland. 

I would like to ask the Commission to read a little extract from 
the inscription by the author of a work written forty years ago, 
by the sister of Admiral Fitzgerald, of the English navy. 

Senator Walsh: I am afraid we would be getting into a great 
deal of matter that would be interesting and historic, and yet 
would not pertain to the immediate inquiry here. I think we had 
better confine ourselves to just what is going on in Ireland today, 
what acts of lawlessness are taking place and how much destruc- 
tion of life and property and loss of blood there is, and how 
much and to what extent humane treatment has been abolished or 
done away with. 

THE HUNDRED "COWARDLY MURDERS OF 
POLICE" 

The Witness: I will state just one more thing. I wanted to 
know something about the hundred cowardly murders of police. 
They have no such word as police is with us. They use a different 
dictionary. I wanted to know about the cowardly murders. I 
had heard about these cowardly murders through the speeches of 
Lloyd George. The cowardly murder takes place in this way: 
The people in certain parts of the country become infuriated. 
They have no weapons of their own. They attack a police bar- 
racks, almost with their bare knuckles. That barracks is fortified 
and well protected to keep anything like violent hands off. In 
that attack on the barracks the policemen are killed. So too are 
the civilians killed. And they attack armed lorries that have their 
guns at the ready, and there they are killed. But instead of being 
a cowardly act, the civilians that attack these barracks and these 
lorries have no arms at all with which to meet their purpose. 

Then, too, the police are spies. When a camp of military comes 
to town, they point out to this military marked men, and these 
men's houses are raided or they are shot. And they are treated as 
spies. The people conceive of a state of war as existing, which 
leads them to regard the policemen as spies and give them the 
fate of spies. 

That is about all. 



91 

WITNESS SUMMONED SOLELY BY COMMISSION 

Q. Senator Walsh: Doctor, you were summoned by this Com- 
mission and invited to come here and testify? 

A. I was summoned by Mr. MacDonald. 

Senator Walsh : I want to have it in the record that you are here 
on the invitation of this Commission and nobody else. 

Chairman Howe: Are there any other questions? 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: The inhabitants of Ireland are not 
allowed to have in their possessions any firearms? 

A. They will get two years for having in their possession 
firearms. 1 

Q. How about finding firearms in their homes? 

A. It is the same. 

The Witness: Thank you, gentlemen, for your courtesy. 

Chairman Howe: The hearings of the Commission will adjourn 
until ten o'clock tomorrow morning. 
Adjourned 5:20 p. m. 



1 Under the recent proclamation of martial law in Ireland, the death 
penalty may be inflicted for possession of arms or ammunition. 



FIRST HEARINGS 

Session Two 

Before the Commission, sitting in the Hotel La Fayette, Wash- 
ington, D. C, Friday, November 19, 1920. 
10:15 a. m. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN DERHAM, OF 
BALBRIGGAN 

Chairman Howe: The Commission will please come to order. 
The hearings will begin by the testimony of Mr. John Derham, of 
Balbriggan, Ireland. Mr. Derham. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Mr. Derham has asked me to act as his counsel 
in bringing out his testimony. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What is your name, please? 

A. John Derham. 

Q. Where do you reside? 

A. Balbriggan, County Dublin, Province Leinster. 

Q. How far is Balbriggan situated from the city of Dublin? 

A. Twenty miles north. 

Q. What communication is there between Balbriggan and the 
city of Dublin? 

A. The Northern Railroad and a main road between Belfast 
and Dublin. 

THE INDUSTRIES OF BALBRIGGAN 

Q. I wish you would describe to the Commission the sort of 

town Balbriggan is, industrial or agricultural? 

A. Industrial. 

Q. What are the industries? 

A. Hosiery, Balbriggan hosiery. 

Q. There are two main factories there? 

A. Two, yes. 

Q. What is the size of them? 

A. The largest factory employs about three hundred or two 
hundred and fifty in the factory. 

Q. The smaller one? 

A. The smaller one, one hundred twenty. 

Q. One was burned, I believe? 

A. That was the smaller one. 

92 



93 

Q. That had one hundred twenty employees? 

A. In the factory. 

Q. Were there others in the town that worked for the factory, 
and in what way was that done? 

Q. Chairman Howe: What is his official position? 

A. Town commissioner. 

Q. Senator Walsh: When were you elected? 

A. The fifteenth of January. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: I believe you also have a son? 

A. Yes, he is the chairman of it. 

Q. He is here? 

A. No, he is in jail. 

Q. He was in jail at the time you came? 

A. Yes, he is in jail at Mountjoy prison. 

Q. Senator Walsh: For what offence? 

A. For riding a bicycle at night. Nothing found on him. No 
charge. He had to go on hunger strike for three weeks to get the 
charge. 

BALBRIGGAN A NATIONALIST STRONGHOLD 

Q. Tell us a little more about the election on the fifteenth. 
What parties were candidates? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Just describe that. The election was of what 
date? 

A. The fifteenth of January. 

Q. How many parties had candidates? 

A. Republican, Nationalists or Redmondites, and two Unionists 
and one representing the Soldiers' and Sailors' Federation. 

Q. Any Labor Party running? 

A. Two Labor. 

Q. What was the result of the election? 

A. The result of the election was that Labor and the Republi- 
cans, who are the same, five; two Unionists, two Nationalists, and 
the Soldiers and Sailors, none. 

Q. Your town commission consists of how many members? 

A. Nine. 

Q. Did you perfect your election before your son was arrested? 

A. Oh, yes, he was not arrested until June. 

Q. What was your son's name? 

A. James. 

Q. Was it a full and free election, participated in by the men 
and women of Balbriea;arL? 



A 



94 



Yes, all the people of the town. 



Q. Was there any disturbance? 

A. Not the slightest. There was a very full vote. 

Q. How many votes were cast? 

A. I do not know. 

Q. How many members of the council were elected? 

A. Nine. 

Q. How many of the members elected were sympathizers with 
the Republican movement? 

A. Five Republicans. 

Q. Were any other of the men sympathizers? 

A. The other four were not. 

Q. Which party received the highest vote? 

A. The Nationalists. 

Q. Which party came in as members of the council through 
minority representation? That is, there was some one party which 
got the highest vote, and the others — the minority representation 
was given to the others. 

A. The highest vote was got by the Nationalists. The next was 
got by a Labor and one of the Unionists. 

Q. And the Republicans last? 

A. No, my son came next, the Republican. Then one, a Labor 
man, and another Republican after him. 

Q. As the council was finally made up, the sympathizers with 
the Republican movement were five out of nine; but, as a matter of 
fact, the highest vote was given to other than Republican candidates? 

A. Yes, you can explain that by the Unionist and Nationalist 
members. The Nationalist member was a very old member there, 
for nine or ten years. 

Q. Then there was not so much of an issue as to sympathies 
with the Irish Republic as with local conditions? 

A. The Unionists had a great deal to do with that, because the 
Unionist candidates were members of the large factory. 

Q. Was it a victory for the Republicans, then? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Your town was a Nationalist stronghold? 

A. A Nationalist stronghold. But it had not been tested for 
three years. 

Q. You say that factory that was burned gave employment to 
one hundred and twenty, and gave out work to others to do at home. 
How many? 



95 

A. Between three and four hundred. 

Q. How many did the largest factory have that did their work 
at home? 

A. Between five and six hundred. 

Q. The backbone of the town was the hosiery industry? 

A. Yes, it extended to Skerries and Rush. 

Q. It went to villages around in the neighborhood? 

A. Certainly. There were not people enough in our town to 
do it. 

Q. Was there any work done in Dublin? 

A. Yes, the big factory had some work done in Dublin. 

Q. Was there any other industry? 

A. Yes, linen. 

Q. What was the size of that? 

A. Forty or fifty working on linen ticking, tablecloths, sheets, 
and the like. 

Q. Has Balbriggan any other resources? Is it anything of a 
mountain town? 

A. No. There is the sea on one side. We are not far from 
Drogheda. Then there is the national fishing fleet motor boats in 
Balbriggan. 

Q. You are the proprietor of a licensed public house? 

A. Yes, for about thirty years. 

Q. How long have you lived in Balbriggan? 

A. For about thirty years. 

Q. You are a married man? 

A. Yes. 

Q. How many in the family? 

A. Eight. 

Q. Can you give their names? 

A. Yes. Mary, James, Elizabeth, Michael, Kathleen, John, 
Morris, and Louis. 

Q. Did these children all live at home with you? 

A. Yes. 

CROWN FORCES IN BALBRIGGAN 

Q. What sort of a barracks, if any, is there in Balbriggan? 

A. A large house, an old house. 

Q. Was there a police barracks in Balbriggan prior to this time? 

A. Always in Balbriggan. 

Q. How large a one was it? 



96 

A. The house was fairly large. 

Q. How many members of the Royal Irish Constabulary ordi- 
narily were there? 

A. Ten to thirteen. 

Q. After the war was there any military establishment close to 
Balbriggan? 

A. During the latter end of the war there was an aerodrome 
built for flying at Gormanstown, three miles further north, a very 
large one. 

Q. Subsequently what has that been used for? 

A. Turned into a training quarters for Black-and-Tans. There 
is supposed to be fifteen to twenty hundred of them. We cannot 
tell. They come by rail and motor lorries. 

Q. When did they begin to use the aerodrome for that purpose? 

A. I should say about July when they came first. 

Q. The population of Balbriggan is? 

A. Twenty-five hundred. 

RELIGIOUS HARMONY 

Q. How did you find the population was as to Catholics and 
non-Catholics? 

A. Oh, the population is Catholic. We have, I suppose, sixty 
or seventy Protestants. 

Q. Are there two churches there? 

A. There are, the Protestant and the Catholic Church. 

Q. Who is the pastor of the Protestant Church? 

A. The Reverend William Jamison. 

Q. How long has he been there? 

A. I should say about a year. 

Q. Has there been harmony or not between the Catholics and 
Protestants in Balbriggan? 

A. Harmony. 

Q. Has there been any differences there between them, caused 
by any differences in belief on the part of the inhabitants? 

A. Not the slightest. 

Q. Do they cooperate and help each other? 

A. Yes, they always cooperate. If there is anything for the 
Chapel, they all help. 

Q. How is that? 

A. The Catholics are in the best economic position to do so, and 
they extend help cheerfully. 



97 

ORIGIN OF THE NIGHT OF TERROR 

Q. Upon what night was there violence in Balbriggan? 

A. The twentieth of September. 

Q. Was there a Black-and-Tan killed in Balbriggan? 

A. One killed and another wounded. 

Q. Were you present at the time? 

A. I was not present at the time of the shooting. 

Q. I wish you would proceed and give the details of what oc- 
curred at your own home and at the Smith public house. There is 
a public house there kept by a woman named Mrs. Smith? 

A. Yes, Mrs. Smith has a house known as the New Bar. 

Q. Please state to the Commission what you learned the follow- 
ing morning about what occurred in that place. 

A. No, that night. On the night of the twentieth of September 
I was in my own bar. My son, John, came in about half nine and 
told me there was a row in the New Bar with the Black-and-Tans, 
and that two of them were shot. 

Q. Did you get any other details at that time? 

A. Nothing further at that time. 

Q. Please tell what you finally learned about this occurrence? 

A. About how it did take place? 

Q. Yes, how it took place. 

A. District Inspector Burke of the Royal Irish Constabulary 
came down to see his brother, a sergeant in the R. I. C. in Bal- 
briggan. 

Q. Where did Burke live? 

A. In the barracks at Balbriggan. 

Q. That is, the sergeant? 

A. Yes, the sergeant did. The brother came from Dublin. 

Q. What had he been before? 

A. An inspector. 

Q. He had been promoted? 

A. Yes, on that day or the day previous. He came down to cele- 
brate it with a few friends. There were two motor cars or taxis 
came down from Dublin. 

Q. Who were in the taxis? 

A. Black-and-Tans. They stopped at Smith's and were taking 
some drink there. The bar maid refused to give them more, and 
they went behind the bar to take it. She then sent for the R. I. C. 
They came up, looked in at the door, and left when they saw who 
was inside. 



98 

Q. Who was inside? 

A. The Black-and-Tans. 

Q. At that time, according to your information received there the 
next morning, was there anyone in there except the Black-and-Tans? 

A. Not that I heard. 

Q. There had been civilians in there, but they had left? 

A. They left when this excitement began about taking the drink. 
The police looked in and left. It was not a hundred yards from 
there where the shooting took place. 

Q. The Black-and-Tans came out? 

A. Yes, through the Smith door of the street. 

Q. What became of the taxicabs? 

A. One taxicab immediately left for Dublin. 

Q. Did you hear of any other details? 

A. That was practically all. 

Q. Was there ever any military investigation? 

A. No, no other than the military inquest made further about it. 

Q. I wish you would begin now, Mr. Derham, with your own 
experiences, what you heard and saw. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you know who shot these Black-and- 
Tans? 

A. No, there was just a bit of a row there. They had been 
drinking and were a bit excited. 

Q. Was there a row between themselves, or with citizens of Bal- 
briggan? Or did citizens waylay them and shoot them outside? 

A. No, the shooting took place from the inside at some of the 
Black-and-Tans already gone out. 

Q. Who shot them? 

A. Nobody knows. 

Q. The bar maid was inside? 

A. She was inside. 

Q. Has not somebody made an inquiry of her? 

A. She says she knows nothing about it. She was very excited 
about these people coming behind the bar. 

Q. Did any civilians get inside and threaten them with revolvers? 

A. Not that is known. 

Q. It could have happened by a skirmish among themselves? 

A. It could. 

Q. Or it could have happened by some citizens of the town 
shooting these Black-and-Tans? 

A. It could. 



99 

Q. Or it could have happened from inside as these men were 

going out? 

A. It could. 

Q. Who were killed? 

A. These two brothers. 

Q. Was there any inquiry? 

A. There was. 

Q. Who conducted it? 

A. The military. 

Q. What was the verdict? 

A. Shot by persons unknown. 

Q. Was there any investigation by civil authorities? 

A. Oh, no. That has been done away with. 

Q. How long has that been done away with? 

A. Four or five months. 

Q. In what condition were these Black-and-Tans? 

A. They were supposed to have had too much liquor. 

Q. Does the bar maid claim they were drunk? 

A. She claims they had too much. 

Q. How many of them were in there? 

A. Eight or nine of them. 

Q. That is the whole story about that episode? 

A. That is all as far as that is concerned. 

Q. The bar maid did not know them? 

A. No. She was not long there in the employ of that place. 

Q. Do any of those Black-and-Tans claim that civilians shot 
them ? 

A. They do. 

Q. They all claim that, I suppose? 

A. They do. 

Q. Do they say where these civilians came from? 

A. There is a back door. 

Q. Who runs this place? 

A. Mrs. Smith. 

f). Has she any sons? 

A. No, only daughters. The men folks are dead. 

Q. Then there are no men working or living on the premises? 

A. No. Only women. 

Q. Has she any assistants? 

A. A couple of bar maids. 

Q. After the police officers looked into the front door, did thev 
go away? 



100 

A. Yes, they went away. There was no disturbance. 
Q. Does the bar maid claim that these men took liquor from 
behind the counter? 

A. Yes, they did take it. 
Q. What were they drinking? 
A. Bass, I suppose — the usual drink over there. 
Q. But about the Black-and-Tans' claim that some civilians shot 
at them from behind the door? 
A. Yes, that is the excuse. 

Q. You do not care to state from your inquiries as to what ex- 
tent these Black-and-Tans were under the influence of liquor? 

A. They had too much taken. I could not find out just how 
much. 

Q. There was a celebration going on there on account of the 
elevation of this inspector? 
A. Yes, certainly. 

Q. Were any of these Black-and-Tans from Dublin? 
A. Yes, they were all from Dublin except the brother. 
Q. They got the brother who was a sergeant? 
A. They got the brother of the inspector, who was a sergeant, 
from the barracks, and went up to the house for refreshments. 
Q. How long were they in there? 
A. About an hour. 

Q. Had they taken drink before they came in there? 
A. I do not think so. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What was the circumstance of the other 
taxicab? 

A. Immediately after the shooting one of them disappeared. 
Q. Did any Black-and-Tans get into the taxicab? 
A. I could not find out about that. It is supposed they did. 
Q. What became of the wounded men? 

A. He that died was taken out, and the wounded man was 
brought to the police barracks. 

Q. You may proceed and recount the instances that occurred 
after that. 

A. My own? 
Q. Yes, your own. 

A. I need not tell about what my son said. 

Q. Mr. Walsh: No, you told about that. Did anything else 
take place in your own bar? 

A. No, I immediately ordered the porter to put up the shutters. 
I asked the men on the premises to leave, that I was going to shut 



101 

the shop. So they drank up and left. I had the shop shut at quar- 
ter to ten or twenty minutes of. I then went inside to the sitting 
room with my family. We remained there until half after ten. 
Then my son, Mike, came in. 

Q. How old is Mike? 

A. Just twenty. At half past ten he came in and went to bed. 

Q. I think it might be well to describe the location of the rooms 
in your house. How many rooms and where is the bar there located 
with reference to the living part of the house? 

A. The bar, of course, is on the ground floor. The bar is on 
Clanard Street on the Square. 

Q. How large a room is the bar room? 

A. About thirty-six feet in length and about fifteen across. 

Q. Describe your house there. 

A. At the back of the bar is the two sitting rooms, and the 
kitchen at the back. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Are those for private use? 

A. One of them is for the family, for private use, and the other 
is for the bar. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: That is all that is on the first floor? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now describe the upstairs. 

A. There are seven rooms upstairs, six bedrooms and another 
one. 

Q. Of what material is your house built? 

A. Of stone. 

Q. Two stories? 

A. Yes, two stories. 

THE COMING OF THE BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q. You were saying that Mike came in and went to bed? 

A. Yes. And the rest of the family and my wife went to bed at 
eleven. I retired about quarter past eleven. When I got into my 
bedroom I saw and heard the motor lorries, four of them, come in 
full of Black-and-Tans. I remained then to see what they were 
going to do. 

Q. You could look out on the street from your bedroom window? 

A. Yes, the barracks is about fifty yards from my place, and I 
knew that they were going to stop there. After they stopped I saw 
from ten to twelve Black-and-Tans proceed down Drogheda Street. 
I waited then to see what was going to happen with these Black-and- 



102 

Tans for some ten minutes or so. It might have been half past 
eleven. The first I heard was glass breaking up the street. I told 
my wife, "There is going to be a raid on," because I heard the 
glass. Then I heard some shouting and more glass. I went inside 
and called the daughters and told them to go into the back room, 
not to light any lights, and bring their clothes with them. I then 
went back into the boys' room and called my three sons and told 
them to get up and dress and use no light. My wife did the same. 
They remained in the back room in the dark, for I thought there 
would be shooting. You could hear them screeching and roaring, 
and their voices got worse, and I heard some shots. 

Q. Senator Walsh: The voices of the people in the village? 

A. No, the Black-and-Tans. 

Q. What were they saying? 

TORN FROM FAMILY AT POINT OF GUN 

A. We could not tell you that. They were yelling down the 
street. What, I could not tell. I remained in the room for three 
minutes or so. We heard the yells coming closer to our place. They 
started in breaking in the shutters and windows. 

Q. What, your house? 

A. Yes. The yelling was something fearful. It took them three 
or four minutes to break into the front. Then they started breaking 
up the shop and the two rooms below stairs. Then the excitement' 
was so bad in the room that I got a candle. 

Q. The excitement among your own family? 

A. Yes, my wife and one of the daughters. I heard them com- 
ing upstairs then and break open the parlor door. Immediately I 
heard, "Hands up or I will shoot." So I put my head out through 
the door and said, "Come this way, for I have nothing." 

Q. Senator Walsh: As a matter of fact, were there any fire- 
arms or weapons in your house? 

A. Not a thing. Not a thing. He then said, "Come out or I 
will shoot," so I looked out, and he put the rifle up to his shoulder. 
I ducked back and told him to come this way, for I have nothing. 

Q. In what position did he put the rifle? 

A. Like this (indicating raised position ready to fire). 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: To your body? 

A. Like this (again indicating position ready to fire). I said, 
"Come this way for I have nothing." Then ten or twelve of them 
advanced up to the front room. I said, "Spare the children." And 



103 

he said, "This is the man. Take him." And my wife said, "Where 
he goes, I go," and she caught me. Then I was taken around to 
look at the family, and I got a blow in the jaw from a man's fist — 
I did not see the man — and pushed down the passageway. They 
stopped there for about a minute, perhaps, until more Blaek-and- 
Tans came up the stairs. I was then taken downstairs. There was 
none of our family fully dressed. The wife had no stockings on; 
the children had no hats or boots — shoes; I had no hat myself or 
shoes. I was taken downstairs and was going through the hall door 
when the policeman turned to me and said: "No, you are going out 
the way we came in," and he brought me out through the shop. 
When going that way I saw that the two rooms were packed with 
Black-and-Tans breaking in there. 

SHOP RAIDED AND WRECKED 

Q. About how many would you say there were down there? 

A. There were at least seventy on the premises before I got 
through. Seventy at least. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Were they drinking any of your 
liquor? 

A. I do not think so. But they took a bird I had there, a finch, 
took it out of the cage and on. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What was the condition of your bar room 
when you got downstairs? 

A. Everything was completely smashed. The glass was about 
a foot high back of the bar. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Did they destroy any of your 
liquors? 

A. They did. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they destroy all of your stock? 

A. There was much left. 

Q. Did they destroy the shop? 

A. Yes, counter and shades and so forth were smashed. 

Q. Did they take anything? 

A. They did not take what they could have. Some dozen or so 
of Three Star brandy they left, and some other liquors. 

"SIT DOWN ON THE CURB, YOU DOG" 

Q. Senator Walsh: I suppose you did not have time to investi- 
gate? 

A. No, sir. I was taken to the shop door. Immediately I got 



104 

to the shop door I was caught by the neck and pulled into the path. 
I then got the blow of a rifle in the side of the head. I was taken 
across the street and struck four times and asked, "Where is your 
bloody son?" A voice said, "Take him to the Green." 

Q. What is the Green? 

A. The Fair Green. I thought he meant to take me there for 
shooting purposes. That is what I thought at that time. Going 
across the street I was stopped then and searched by a Black-and- 
Tan. He did not take anything from me. He made me put my 
hands over my head, high up, for about a minute. He then said, 
"Sit down." I was going over to a door step to sit down. He said, 
"Come back here and sit down on the curb, you dog." I sat down 
on the curb stone and there were seven rifles pointed at me. I re- 
mained there for about five minutes more. A man then asked me 
my name, and I told him. I then shifted my position a minute, and 
he said, "Sit down there, you dog." 

Q. Senator Walsh: All of this time there were seven rifles 
pointed at you? 

A. Yes, all that time there was seven rifles pointed at me. 

I was being led to the barracks when a big man pointed a re- 
volver at my ear and said, "I will blow your bloody brains out." 

Q. Did he put it to your ear? 

A. Yes, right at the side of my ear. 

Q. All this time did you make any protest? 

A. No ; I never spoke. 

Q. Never spoke? 

A. Never spoke. He told me to get in on the path. I was on 
the road. And immediately I was struck on the shoulder and tum- 
bled down with the butt of a rifle. I got to the barracks then. It 
was about thirty yards away where all this was happening. He 
said, "Put this man in the day room." The man guarding the door 
said, "He cannot go in there. There is a man dying in there." I 
was told to stop on the porch of the barracks and remained there 
for about five minutes or eight or something like that. The man 
then safd, "Take this man to the hotel." So I was brought to the 
hotel. Lawless — the second son of Mr. Lawless — was there with a 
child three years old with bronchitis; and another little child about 
four. 

UNCLAD CHILDREN DRIVEN FROM HOME 
Q. Were these Lawless children driven out of their home? 
A. Yes, they were driven out with their father. He was in his 
bare feet, and the children were in their night clothes. 



105 

Q. What sort of weather was it? 

A. The weather was very cold. It was frosty, too. The grass 
was wet. There was no rain, though. 

I got into the hotel. When I got there, I got the remainder of 
my family with me, with the exception of Mike. I stopped there 
until half past six in the morning. 

A NIGHT OF YELLING, BURNING, AND SHOOTING 

Q. Senator Walsh: During the night what could you see from 
the hotel as to what was going on? 

A. I could see the glare of the fires. I could see that two houses 
were gone altogether. 

Q. Could you see your own house from there? 

A. I could. Then there was yelling and burning and shooting 
all the night. 

Q. At any time during the night did you ascertain that anyone 
had been killed? 

A. Not until half past six in the morning. The Black-and-Tans 
were stopping and yelling outside the hotel all the time. There was 
nearly a collapse in my family whenever they stopped. 

LAWLESS AND GIBBONS BAYONETED TO DEATH 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: You might detail at this time what you saw 
and heard about Mr. Lawless and Mr. Gibbons. 

A. About half past six I came out of the hotel. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was the hotel turned into police bariacks? 

A. I thought so all night, but I came out at half past six. 

Q. How did you happen to come out at half past six? 

A. There was no police with me. I saw civilians walking around 
outside. I got down to the barracks and was told that Lawless and 
Gibbons were shot, and were down in the lane about six yards off 
the road. I saw the black objects of their bodies, but did not feel 
able to go down and look at it myself. 

Q. Were there people around the bodies? 

A. Yes, they were around there looking at them. 

Q. What was your information about where they were killed 
and how the bodies got there? 

A. They were killed around the corner in Quay Street. 

Q. Where were the bodies lying? 

A. On the roadside, by two pools of blood. 



106 

Q. What was your information about how the bodies got there? 

A. The neighbors carried them down to the gate in the lane, 
about five or six yards down. The neighbors found their bodies on 
the roadway and removed them from the sight of the public. 

Q. Who was Mr. Lawless? 

A. He was the local barber. 

Q. What was his name? 

A. James. 

Q. Who was Mr. Gibbons? 

A. He was a dairy proprietor, living with his mother. His 
name was John. 

Q. How old was Mr. Gibbons? 

A. About thirty-five. 

Q. Was he a married man? 

A. No, he lived with his mother and three sisters. 

Q. Was he a law-abiding man? 

A. Yes, indeed. 

Q. How old was Mr. Lawless? 

A. About forty. 

Q. Had he any family? 

A. Yes, seven children. 

Q. Had he a wife living? 

A. Yes, she is living. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now, I wish you would detail the circum- 
stances as they were given to you the next morning about the death 
of these men. 

A. Lawless was first taken. His was the first house attacked. 
He was brought into the barracks at the time I was brought down. 

Q. Did you see him there? 

A. I did not. But his sons said they heard their father's voice 
inside. The local doctor was then in the day room. He was badly 
bruised and beaten about the head. 

Q. Where was Mr. Lawless's son? 

A. He was on the porch of the barracks, where I was. 

Q. Did he have anyone with him? 

A. He had his little sister about four years old. 

Q. The sick child? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Had he been brought there with his father? 

A. No, he came there after his father was taken. 

Q. He was in the hotel with you? 

A. Yes, he brought the child to the hotel. 



107 

Q. You were telling about the death of Mr. Lawless. 

A. About half past one two Black-and-Tans came into the bar- 
racks and asked Lawless to tell them who shot Inspector Burke. 
He said he did not know, and the Black-and-Tans said, "Tell the 
truth or you will be shot at half two," looking at their wrist watches. 

Q. He looked at his wrist watch? 

A. Yes, and said right out, "You will be shot at half two." He 
was then taken outside the barracks, and there was some shots fired. 
It was presumed to be at Lawless, but not to hit him— to frighten 
him. And he was brought in again. Gibbons, John Gibbons, was 
brought into the barracks just as Lawless went back to the barracks, 
and after half an hour or so there, they came in, the same two 
Black-and-Tans, and asked Gibbons to tell who shot Burke. He 
said he did not know. They said, "You will have to tell the truth." 
He said, "I am telling the truth." They asked him to tell what he 
had to do with the Sinn Fein Volunteers. He said he was secretary 
for the local Volunteers. The two of them were then brought out, 
one after the other, again, and were asked the same questions, and 
the same procedure went on. That is, there were shots fired, and 
they were brought in again to the barracks. They remained there 
until about quarter to five in the morning, when they were taken 
out and brought around to Quay Street, about ten yards from the 
barracks, and were bayoneted to death. 

Q. Senator Walsh: They were stabbed to death with bayonets? 

A. Yes, with bayonets. 

Q. No shots were fired into them at any time? 

A. No, not according to the doctor's report. 

Q. How many times were the bodies pierced? 

A. There were three in Gibbons's neck and several across the 
body. The other man had bayonet wounds nine inches long in each 
of his thighs. 

SON, BEATEN UNTIL UNCONSCIOUS, LEFT IN 
BURNING HOME 

Q. Did you find all of your family in the hotel, Mr. Derham? 

A. No. After passing where Lawless and Gibbons was, I went 
further. I saw nothing was standing there. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Your own home? 

A. Yes, sir. The walls were all tumbled down. Not the mak- 
ings of a match was left. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Burned all your property? 



108 

A. The whole lot. 

Q. Clothing? 

A. Yes; we were not dressed. 

Q. Everything you had in the house was burned? 

A. Yes, everything we had. I was told then by the people that 
Mike was all right, that he was up in a neighbor's cottage, Murphy's, 
about a mile out of town; that he was badly beat about the head. 
I was afraid, because so many were telling me he was up there, that 
the police would hear about it and beat me up there, and so I went 
up immediately. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What was his condition? 

A. He was badly cut about the forehead; his lip was stitched 
here (indicating front of lip), and his jaw was bruised badly, and 
several bad wounds about his head. His arms were so stiff he could 
hardly shake hands with me. 

Q. He was lying on the bed? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Dressed? 

A. Partially dressed — trousers and coat and stockings. I asked 
him to tell me how he got out of the house. He told me he didn't 
know; he remembered calling for his mother two or three times, 
and didn't know anything more. Finally he was found lying in the 
field and brought to this house. 

Q. What is your information about what happened to him? 

The Witness: After he left the house and went into the next 
garden? 

Senator Walsh: No, before he left the house? 

The Witness: What he told me himself? 

Senator Walsh: Yes. 

The Witness: When we left the room one of the Black-and-Tans 
said: "There is the young lad; take him." And they went to choke 
his brother, John. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: How old is John? 

A. Just fifteen. And Mike said, "It is not him, it is me who is 
wanted." And they immediately left John go and went for him. 

Q. How old is Mike? 

A. Just twenty. So they immediately went for him and were 
beating him about the face and body. They had him on the bed. 
He asked them to shoot him and end it, and they said shooting was 
too good for him. He then turned his face on the bed to save his 
face, and he was then struck on the back of the head, and they left 
him unconscious. They left him there on account of the fire. 



109 

Q. Where was he — in the burning house? 

A. That was where he was. 

Q. Did he know how he got out of the house? 

A. No, he said. He got out and called for his mother three 
times. He got to the top of the garden and got "Halt," but instead 
of halting he ran and jumped into the neighbor's — Burke's garden. 
There is a river at the back of our place that supplies the denim 
mill with water — about knee deep or so. Mike made it over there. 
They went up the river and Mike went down the river. 

Q. Who went up the river? 

A. Burke. Burke and his two sisters went up the river, and 
Mike went down the river. 

Q. Where was Mike after that? 

A. He was seen down on Quay Street and Mill Street. 

Q. What was his apparent condition? 

A. They did not know. He gave a knock at a door as he was 
passing through the town. 

Q. Apparently seeking shelter? 

A. Knocking at the street door at any rate. 

Q. Where was he found? 

A. Lying in a field of oats by a man named Costello. 

Q. Where was he then taken? 

A. He was taken to Murphy's cottage with no clothes on him. 
I then came back from there and got a motor car and sent him to 
Drogheda, both to be attended to and to be out of the way; and I 
have not seen him since. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is he all right now? Have you got word 
from him since? 

A. No, but he is all right. He cannot communicate. 

TWENTY-FIVE HOMES BURNED 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh : I wish you would describe the condition 
of your own house. 

A. It was burned to the ground, and not a vestige left. Not a 
vestige left. Everything burned down. My neighbor's house, Con- 
nolly's, on the opposite corner, was the same way. Nothing but 
bricks and stones. Clanard Street, seventeen houses burned in that 
street, nine in one row. 

Q. Were those dwelling houses? 

A. Dwelling houses. Three of them were two-story houses — 
shops— and another was a Mrs. Cochran's dairy. When the Black- 



110 

and-Tans came in there Mrs. Cochran ran out into the yard and 
left two of her little boys behind. One of them was about twelve 
and the other ten. They made them get up and dress themselves 
and brought them through the house upstairs where they were break- 
ing up the furniture. Whenever they would see a religious picture, 
they would make the children look at it, and put their bayonet 
through it. 

Q. Senator Walsh: They would have the children put the 
bayonet through it? 

A. Oh, no; they would do it; but they would make the children 
look at it to see what they were doing. 

Q. Mr. Wood 1 : That means the Black-and-Tans? 

A. Yes, the Black-and-Tans. They brought them down the 
street toward our place to see Derham's fire. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they say that to them? 

A. Yes, they took the children by the hand, and told them they 
were bringing them down to see Derham's fire. 

Q. That is to say, your house afire? 

A. Yes, to see my house afire. They brought them back, then, 
into their own yard, and told them to sit down at a hay rick to warm 
themselves. They threw a tin of petrol over the rick and set it afire. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Where did they get the petrol? 

A. When they came into the town, they went that night at quar- 
ter past eleven to a man named Martin Connolly, asking him for 
the keys of his garage; got them; went down and took out thirty 
tins of petrol; locked up the garage; and returned the keys to him, 
and told him his house would be all right. 

Q. How many residences were there burned? 

A. Twenty-five of them altogether. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Just a moment. He did not finish about 
the hay rick. 

A. They then set fire to the hay rick, and then set fire to the 
Cochran house. 

Q. Was that house completely destroyed? 

A. Completely, except the back of the kitchen. 

Q. Were there other houses completely destroyed? 

A. Totally destroyed. Twenty-five houses in the town were 
totally destroyed. 

Q. They were all dwelling houses and all occupied? 



1 Mr. L. Hollingsworth Wood was present at the First Hearings by invi- 
tation of the Commission, and was elected to and accepted membership on 
the Commission prior to the Second Hearings. 



Ill 

A. Yes, all occupied. In Clanard Street there were nine single 
houses and all destroyed — not a vestige left. 

Q. Were these houses largely owned by people who worked in 
the mills? 

A. Yes, they were occupied by the mill people and fishing people 
and laborers. 

Q. Were there any business places destroyed other than the fac- 
tory you have mentioned? 

A. Yes. Costello and myself and two others; four publicans 
and two groceries; six business houses altogether. 

DESTRUCTION OF FACTORY BRINGS DESTITUTION 

Q. Senator Walsh: About the mill. Where was the mill located 
with reference to these houses? 

The Witness: The factory? 

Senator Walsh: Yes, the factory. 

A. The factory would be about five hundred yards from the 
nearest burned dwelling. 

Q. Was it detached from the rest of the town? 

A. Yes, detached. There is a railroad embankment passing 
through our town about ten to fifteen feet high, and it is on the sea 
side of the embankment that this factory is situated. You cannot 
see it from the town. 

Q. That factory was burned this night? 

A. It was burned the next morning. 

Q. Was it totally destroyed? 

A. Totally destroyed; one hundred thousand pounds loss. It 
is owned in London. The manager is an Englishman. There is 
nothing in a political line there. Only to leave destitution in the 
place. 

Q. It threw them out of work? 

A. Yes, one hundred twenty people in the factory and three hun- 
dred more working in their homes. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You say these people worked in their 
homes? 

A. In taking the stockings in their homes and doing embroidery 
on them. 

Q. So on your estimate it threw four hundred twenty people out 
of employment? 

A. Yes, out of employment. 

Q. That was their sole means of livelihood? 



112 

A. Yes, their sole means. 

Q. Were there any other houses in Balbriggan for these people 
whose homes were burned? 

A. No, there were no other places for them. I myself have two 
of my girls in lodgings. 

Q. Hired a lodging for them? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Describe how your own family is dis- 
tributed? 

A. Two of them are in lodgings with a friend in Balbriggan, 
and one of the boys is with a friend because he is going to school 
there. Mike is in Drogheda, and the rest of them are in Rush, nine 
miles away. 

Q. Where did you stop? 

A. I stopped in Rush with my wife. We could not get a place 
in the town for them. 

Q. How are these laborers maintained? 

A. There was a public subscription for them in the town. 

Q. As a rule, none of them had savings? 

A. Oh, there were no savings, no. 

SIX DAYS OF TERRORISM 

Q. What became of the people of the town? 

A. That was a night of terror. Over two-thirds of the people 
were in the country all that night. 

Q. Where did they sleep? 

A. In the fields. They slept anywhere, some of them in ditches 
filled with barbed wire all night. 

Q. They left things behind them? 

A. Yes, everything. Some of them went out only with their 
night dresses and bare feet. 

Q. Men, women, and children? 

A. Yes, everybody. They had to. 

Q. Many children in the town, I suppose? 

A. Many of them. 

Q. Was there any other damage done? 

A. In that Clanard. Street I spoke of, they broke the windows of 
fifty houses in that street, along with burning seventeen houses. 

Q. Did that state of terror continue for some time after that? 

A. I think it was Sunday before they settled down. 

Q. And this occurred on Monday night? 



113 

A. On Monday night. 

Q. For the balance of the week, where did the people go? 

A. They spent the night in the country. They did not wait until 
night to go. When four o'clock or evening came, you would see 
them going away to the country, stopping in the farmers' stables or 
barns or hay lofts or anything they could get, or in the ditches. 
Two-thirds of the people left the town during the week. 

Q. Afraid to stay over night? 

A. Yes; because they had it all day. They had these Crossley 
engines running through the town full of Black-and-Tans sitting 
with their rifles at the ready all the time. If they saw a crowd at 
the corner, they would bring up their rifles and fire shots. 

Q. Were they firing shots all the time? 

A. They were. On the Wednesday after that they fired in 
through the grocer's window and took half his collar away, just 
like that (indicating coat lapel). At the same time they threw a 
Mills bomb in the butcher shop on the side street, and a piece went 
through an apple in a young lad's pocket. The next grocery shop 
they fired and destroyed the scales. And another place they fired 
into a crowd of young ladies. 

Q. Going along the road, what is the situation? 

A. They go along the road with these big lorries of three to five 
tons at a dangerous speed. 

Q. Do they fire along the road? 

A. Oh, constantly, at the animals. Take Mr. McCullough; the 
old gentleman was there with his sons, and they fired on them. 
Another place they cut the tails off of four pullets, and one of them 
after died. 

LOOTING OF STORES 

Q. Did they do any other damage? 

A. Yes, they raped and looted. 

Q. What did they do? 

A. In the house next to me there was a public house, and they 
took the bottles away. 

Q. Did they do any drinking? 

A. No, not at this place. The place opposite me, at Connolly's, 
was where they drank. 

Q. What was the situation at Connolly's? 

A. Connolly had two large glass windows, and they broke these 
with the butts of their rifles. The place was well lighted up by the 



114 

fire from my house opposite, and they drank to their fill before the 
place was destroyed. Two grocery stores they looted and raped; 
threw the tea and sugar and soap and candles and everything on the 
floor about three feet high; tramped over it; and pulled things out 
in the passage to destroy what they did not set fire to. 

Q. Did you see the stuff there the next day? 

A. I did. 

Q. Took it out and tramped it in the dirt? 

A. They did. I saw it myself. 

Q. Were there any other business houses destroyed? 

A. Of course, there were four public houses completely de- 
stroyed. All the things in them were completely destroyed. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Was there any way to get repaia- 
tion from the British Government? 

A. They are working for that. They are trying to do it. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is it a civil process? 

A. They are going to the civil courts first, and they do not know 
what they will do afterward. 

Q. These business men are trying to do this? 

A. Yes, they are trying to do that. 

Q. Does the British Government acknowledge that as a claim? 

A. No, they do not acknowledge that. We are trying to test 
them first. 

Q. Has there been any inquiry held in Balbriggan by the au- 
thorities? 

A. No, not that I know of. I never had an invitation to any 
inquiry. 

Q. Did the British Labor Party send a mission to Balbriggan as 
it did to Thurles? 

A. No, but' the International Women's League did. 1 That came 
from Manchester. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Can you tell us about that? 

A. Yes. I met them when they came. I was on the same train. 
As a matter of fact, the leader handed me a letter with my name on 
it, asking me where Mr. Derham was. 

Q. Did they seem to be making a fair-minded investigation? 

A. They did. They seemed to be all right. 

Q. Mr. Wood: Did they question the people any? 



1 The witness refers to the British Branch of the Women's Interna- 
tional League, which sent an investigating mission to Ireland, two mem- 
bers of which, Mrs. Annot Erskine Robinson and Miss Ellen C. Wilkin- 
son, testified before the Commission. See index and list of witnesses. 



115 

A. They did. They questioned the people who had gone 
through the fife and slept out in the fields. 

Q. Did they question the police? 

A. I do not know. 

Q. How long a time did they spend there? 

A. From half twelve to five. They went on the same train 
hack to Dublin that I was going back. 

Q. Half twelve means half-past eleven or half-past twelve? 

A. Half-past twelve. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Were there any dairies in the neighbor- 
hood destroyed? 

A. No; we do not have any dairies. The only thing we had 
was' factories. That was all they could destroy. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: These textile workers, do they be- 
long to a union? 

A. They do. They are all union. 

Q. Do you have any other unions in the city? 

A. The only other union' we have is the Irish Transport 
Workers. 

Q. These fishermen, do they dispose of their own catch or work 
for some fishing concern? 

A. They dispose of their own catch. That is a thing that 
the Republican government is trying to bring in— cooperation — so 
that we can all do our own business. 

Q. These unions, as uniqns, are they in any way harassed by 
the Black-and-Tans and the military? 

A. No, not as unions. That would be too large a job. 

SUPPRESSION OF CIVIL LIBERTIES 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is the press in Balbriggan free to say 
what it pleases? 

A. There is no local press. There is the Freeman, but the 
editor is to be up before the Government this week or next week 
for condemning the actions of the Black-and-Tans in the country. 

Q. He is under arrest? 



Yes, he is to be called up for trial. 

Where? 

Dublin. 

Before the regular criminal courts? 

I could not say as to that. 

There is an indictment against him? 

Yes, for condemning the Black-and-Tans. 



116 

Q. Do they permit public meetings in Balbriggan? 

A. No public meetings are allowed. 

Q. No gatherings in the streets? 

A. None in the streets. 

Q. Or in the halls? 

A. You can go to the hall if they know what the meeting is 

about, but you cannot hold any political meeting. 

Q. Where do the Republicans hold their political meetings? 

A. Oh, different places. 

Q. But they do hold them? 

A. Yes, they do hold them. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: They are not generally advertised? 

A. Oh, no. Oh, no. 

EFFECTS OF TERRORISM ON ECONOMIC AND 
POLITICAL LIFE 

Q. Chairman Howe: What has been the effect of this on the 
business of Balbriggan, especially from the country districts? 

A. The country districts are bad. It is hard on them. You 
do not have any country people in the afternoon. They will come 
in only when they have to. They cannot travel on the roads to 
Dublin or Drogheda, for they are afraid of the shooting. 

Q. Where do the people get their food from? 

A. It has to come in on the trains or from around the town. 

Q. The people do not come into the town like they did? 

A. No. We are in a sense isolated. It is not safe to be com- 
ing in. You do not know what you are going to meet. 

Q. Does the local town council meet regularly in Balbriggan? 

A. It did not for awhile. It took five to form a quorum. When 
my son was away, we could not get a quorum, because the Union- 
ists did not attend. 

Q. You had no local government, then? 

A. Not until he came out. Since then we have had two or 
three meetings. He would go to Balbriggan to attend them and 
then leave. 

Q. So your local government is not functioning now? 

A. Oh, well, its duties are not much. You see the state of 
terrorism there, and people are so frightened. My son was not 
out until the fifteenth of October. That was more than a month 
afterwards. He went down to Balbriggan on Saturday, to attend 
a council meeting. On Saturday evening, when he was seen about, 
they got a report that there would be a raid on to get Derham by 



117 

night. Half the town slept in the fields that night in fear of what 
might happen. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is your son on the ruin? 

A. The two of them are on the run. He goes in the daytime. 
They are not afraid in the daytime. It is the night time they are 
afraid of. It is terrorism. You do not want to be with friends* 
for you are liable to get the whole place broken Up for them. 
And if you stay in your own home, it is sure to be broken up. 

FIVE DIE FROM FRIGHT AND EXPOSURE 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Have there been any deaths since? 

A. Five of them, soon after that: three elderly persons and 
two children. The fright and exposure was largely to blame for it. 

And it isn't over yet. There were handbills saying, "Send in- 
formation to D. W. Ross, London." That is the way they get all 
their information. They came around three weeks after the burn- 
ing and pasted one on every door in town, and at some doors they 
knocked. There was an old woman sixty-five or sixty-eight years 
of age, and she died from the fright. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: What were these bills? 

A. Handbills telling us to send any information we knew about 
Sinn Fein to D. W. Ross, London, and you would get the money 
afterwards. 

Q. Who is D. W. Ross? Does anybody know? 

A. That is unknown. It is somebody in London. You send in 
the information, and you would get a reward afterwards. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: In these raids, did they just take 
particular parties, or did they take the whole street, or select those 
who are Republicans and Sinn Fein? 

A. They did not take everybody. They picked them out like 
they did me. 

Q. Any big business property molested besides the big mill? 

A. No, that was all, the big mill. 

RESTRICTIONS ON FUNERALS 

Now, you might want to know about burials. When the funerals 
of Lawless and Gibbons were about to be held, we were going to 
have the tricolor on the coffins. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What is the tricolor? 

A. The colors of the Irish Republic. When the funerals were 
to be held, we wanted to have the Volunteers there and march. 
But about twelve o'clock that day, or eleven, the word came 



118 

through some of the clergy that if this thing was to go on, if there 
was any tricolor out or any military formation, the Blaek-and- 
Tans would come on that night and wipe the town out. There 
was a long discussion. Some of them wanted to do it anyway. 
But it was finally decided that for the sake of the town we would 
have to cut it out. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Is there any limitation of the number 
of persons who are allowed to attend people's funerals? 

A. At the present time there is a limitation, as in the case ol 
the late Lord Mayor of Cork, Terrence MacSwiney. It was limited 
to a quarter of a mile long. There would have been four or five 
miles of it. And then you are accompanied by these motor lorries. 

MURDER OF SHERLOCK AT SKERRIES 

Q. I believe you had some information about the murder of 
a man at Sherries? 

A. At Skerries. 

Q. What is the situation of this town? 

A. Four miles from us. 

Q. What are the circumstances of the death of Mr. Sherlock? 

A. Penstraw is that man's name. He was supposed to be 
around with the Black-and-Tans at the night of the sacking of 
Balbriggan, showing them where the Sinns were. So he left the 
town the day after, and he was in Skerries. The report was that 
the Skerries Volunteers put him out of Skerries. That was the 
report. That was about three or four days afterwards. About a 
month after that, there was a body got about eight miles away in 
a ditch. It turned out to be Penstraw. He was not buried right. 
There was heavy rains on. There was some young lads in the 
ditch getting blackberries, and they found the body. 

Q. Was there a man named Sherlock in that place? 

A. Well, then, he was identified. The police were very active, 
and he was identified as Penstraw. 

Q. Was there a man named Sherlock killed there? 

A. Yes. Well, that night they went up to Skerries in motor 
lorries. 

Q. How many? 

A. I do not know how many lorries went up, but there was a 
hundred or so Black-and-Tans. They stopped out on the Balbriggan 
side of the town and walked so that they would make no noise. 
They went to a namesake of mine, Derham, and knocked on his 



119 

door, and he lei them in, and stood in another door as they passed 
by and went upstairs in the house. And then they went out again. 
Derham immediately went out, when they broke in the door to look 
for him. So he escaped. They then went to a young man named 
Terrol and kept him on his knees for two hours, and then went for 
Sherlock. The father answered the door. They asked for his son 
John — John Sherlock. The father said, "He is not in." He said, 
"It is all right, father. They will not do me any harm." They 
brought him away about three hundred yards in a field, and when 
his father and sister found him that morning, about seven o'clock, 
there were three bullet wounds in his breast and four in his head. 
But Terrol was all right. They did not shoot him. The next night 
they came again and set fire to Derham's house and burned it 
all up. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: This first man, he was an informer? 
A. Yes, he was said to be an informer, going around with the 
Black-and-Tans. 

Q. Was there any reason for the Black-and-Tans believing that 
these men were implicated in this crime? 

A. The only reason was that the body was found about eight 
miles away from Skerries. 

Q. There was no other reason? 
A. No. 

Q. It was only an excuse? 

A. Yes, all they wanted was an excuse. That was all they 
wanted. 

Q. Mr. Wood: But was this body identified as that of the man? 
A. Yes, I believe an uncle and an aunt identified it. 
Q. But the body had been dead a long time? 
A. Yes, it was. He was missing for about a month. I don't 
know how long the body was there. But they could identify it by 
some of the things on the body. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Have you any further statement you want 
to make? 

Senator Walsh : I think that covers it, Mr. Derham. 
Q. Mr. Wood: The Smith public house was also destroyed? 
A. Oh, no; nothing done there. Not a pane of glass broken. 
Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Was that Smith place a place to which the 
Black-and-Tans resorted a great deal? 
A. They did. 

Q. None of them ever came to your place? 

A. They did not. None of them came there. Perhaps two or 
three times altogether. 



120 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: How do you explain that? They left 
the Smith house and destroyed the others. 

A. That is the mystery. If that had happened in my house, 1 
would not be here. There was not a pane of glass broken in the 
Smith house. 

Chairman Howe: That is all. Thank you very much. 

The witness was thereupon excused. 

* * * * * * •» * 

TESTIMONY OF MRS. AGNES B. KING 

Chairman Howe: Is Mrs. King here? 

(The witness takes the stand.) 

Mrs. King, of Ironton. 

Q. Please state, Mrs. King, your full name and residence. 

A. Agnes B. King, of Ironton, Ohio. 

Q. How long have you lived in Ironton? 

A. Six years. 

Q. And in the United States? 

A. All my life. 

Q. You were born here? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Are you married? 

A. I am a widow with three children. 

Q. Are you a professional woman? 

A. I cannot be said to be that, no. I have taught school formerly 
in the Cleveland public schools. That is all. 

Q. You have been recently in Ireland? 

A. Yes, for about eight weeks, and one week in London. 

Q. When did you enter Ireland? 

A. I entered Ireland on the twenty-second of July. 

Q. When did you leave? 

A. The twenty-third of September, 1920. 

Q. What led you to Ireland? 

A. I went over at first for my health. I did not intend to visit 
Ireland except for two or three weeks. My real intention was to 
take my grown-up niece, who was a French student, to France. But 
I changed my mind after being in Ireland two or three weeks, be- 
cause the situation was so engrossing. And so, although I had a 
passport to France, I did not go. 

Q. Why did you go to Ireland? 

A. I went to Ireland because my mother and father were born 
in Ireland. My father was all through his life a very strict Protes- 
tant, and would not on any account enter a Catholic church. He 



121 

was opposed to the Catholic faith save as he saw it exemplified in 
my mother's life, and this he admired. 

Q. Your mother was a Catholic? 

A. Yes, she was a Catholic. 

Q. Were they born in Ireland? 

A. Yes, they were both born in Cork city. He was baptized in 
the famous Shandon church. I got his baptismal record while I 
was over there. 

Q. What was your father's business? 

A. He was a manufacturer of barrels all his life. 

Q. You went back to visit their old home? 

A. Yes. My mother died last January, and I became very ill 
after her death, and my people suggested that a sea voyage would 
do me much good, and I said that perhaps the sight of my mother's 
and my father's birthplace would reawaken interest in me. And I 
also wanted to take this niece, who had been raised by mother from 
a baby. I thought that if she had a stay in France, it would be 
the best thing for her. I also took my daughter with me. My 
daughter is twelve years of age. 

Q. Where did you land in Ireland? 

A. Kingstown, I think. We went straight across from Liver- 
pool. We took a taxi up to the hotel in Dublin. 

Q. How long did you remain in Dublin? 

A. About a week, I think. 

Q. What did you do there? 

Q. We went sight-seeing, and I called on my people there. We 
visited all the famous churches there, and the cemeteries. I think 
that is about all that I did in Dublin. 

Q. You know in a general way the purposes of this inquiry. 
Now, go on in your own way. 

THE PREVAILING TERRORISM 

A. The first time that I was terrified in Ireland was at Temple- 
more. I remember going with my daughter and my niece to visit a 
church on Saturday evening, and the lorries were coming into town 
at full speed. This was my first close view of lorries. They were 
bent on terrorizing the people. They came down the road at a very 
high rate of speed. The drivers were completely white with dust. 
It seemed to me almost like "flour dust, they were going so fast. 
The lorries were all filled with soldiers. The guns were all at atten- 
tion. I clung to my daughter and my niece, and I think we said a 
few prayers, for it had been said in Templemore that day that they 



122 

were bent on mischief. The driver wanted to have a little fun, for 
he swung the first lorry near to the curb, and the muffler blew off just 
as they passed us. I called out, "We are Americans," but of course 
it was only my woman's fright and terror. 

During that night we drew the dresser up in front of the window, 
and during that night there were shots fired in the Square. 

Q. Where is Templemore? 

A. It is in the central part of Tipperary, not far from Thurles. 
When I arrived in Templemore I heard of the outrages in Thurles, 
and the air seemed rife with coming danger. So I was anxious to 
be out of the place as soon as possible. I might say that in every 
place and in every town where we stopped in Ireland, the dressers 
were put up before the windows to ward off the shots if there were 
firing during the night. In Cork, really the only place that I was 
interested in seeing in Ireland, because it was the city of my parents' 
nativity, I was thinking of anything but of the military program in 
that city, and was bent on thoughts of my recently deceased mother 
when we entered the city. There we were in the midst of scenes 
of great military activity, and I was almost regretful that I had 
come. There was a raid on, and there were Lewis guns and tanks 
and many of the military surrounding the place where they were 
raiding. The citizenry of Cork was standing about in a very quiet 
way, and I believe that I was the most turbulent person there and 
the most agitated. I rushed to the hotel and said, "Please give me 
a back room, so that we will be as far as possible away from this 
shooting." The lady said to me, "You are not brave like the women 
of Ireland. You do not have to suffer like this in America." My 
daughter and myself were given a rear room on the top floor of the 
hotel, but there was a window in this room that let out on the side 
street. The porter placed the dresser and the large wardrobe before 
that window as a protection from stray shots that might come down 
that side street. My little daughter seemed to be less fearful than 
myself. Once or twice after the curfew had been on that night — 
the curfew lowers at ten o'clock in Cork; it had been put on about 
a week before we entered the town — my little daughter went to the 
window to look out, and I called her back. She said, "Mama, there 
is no danger if you peek out of the corner of the window." We 
then peeked out and it seemed to me that about a dozen soldiers — 
I cannot give the exact number — were halting men in the side street. 
I think some of those men escaped 1 halting, because of the inter- 
mittent peeks that we gave. We watched those men: in some way 
they ran into the side street and escaped the military that night. 
I saw the military all through the night down that side street as if 



123 

watching for someone. Needless to say, there was very little sleep 
that night, and I almost forgot that it was my mother's birthplace. 
I may say that the next day I started to take a picture from the 
upper window of the hotel, where many people were watching the 
soldiers in the square below, and a man said to me — a man with 
a decided English accent — 

Q. Chairman Howe: What were the soldiers doing? 

A. Preparing for a raid. 

Q. Would you please describe this raid? 

A. There were many lorries and hundreds of soldiers with their 
guns at attention. Each squad of soldiers were pointing their guns 
in different directions, so that no angle was left uncovered by guns 
and bayonets. The Lewis guns were ready for firing, and what 
were called tanks — I would not have known it, but they told me it 
was a tank that was waiting there. The officers were busy com- 
manding the soldiers. And then suddenly they rushed into this 
house to raid it. What they did inside this house I do not know. 

Q. A private house or a business house? 

A. A business house, a publishing business, and also a store- 
house for groceries. 

Q. What did they do on that raid? 

A. I was not inside. I do not know. 

Q. You saw the soldiers go into that house? 

A. Yes, dozens of soldiers going in with bayonets at attention. 

Q. Did they bring anything out? 

A. They brought nothing out. 

Q. Was the house destroyed or burned? 

A. No, not that day. It was what one would call, after seeing 
others, a peaceful raid. They were searching, I believe, for a man 
they did not get, and for documents, according to what was said in 
the papers. 

I went to take the picture of this immense gathering of military 
because of the fact that it was my nearest approach to war in my 
lifetime. And this man said, "My God, girl, if they see you they 
will shoot!" I said, "Why would they shoot?" He said, "They 
would take that camera to be something that a Sinn Feiner was 
throwing, and they would shoot." He said, "I am an Englishman, 
and I would not take a picture of this gathering myself." 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did you see any other raids? 

A. I did. Shall I give you some of the other things I saw at 
Cork? 

Senator Walsh: Yes, chronologically. 



124 

"WAR ON WOMEN AND CHILDREN" 

The Witness: The nights, then, while I stayed in the hotel — my 
stays were very brief in Cork because of my extreme timidity, but 
I still wanted to get in touch with some of my mother's and father's 
relatives because they had long been in America; so I went back, 
I think, four times to Cork — the people would gather in the lower 
parlor, that is, the parlor on the second floor of the hotel, in order 
to watch the movements of the military as soon as the curfew hour 
approached. One could gather by that whether the military were 
bent on any dread business that night. At any rate, lights went 
out and at five minutes to ten there was on each night a scurrying 
of bullets on the road from Patrick Street down (Patrick Street is 
on the road straight up from the hotel) — a scurrying of bullets to 
clear the street, as near as one could tell. In the morning one 
would read from the papers that these bullets would fly because 
men would not halt, or something of that sort. After the first scurry 
of bullets there would be motor lorries. Sometimes they would 
come at a rapid pace through the town, making a great noise. 
Sometimes they would come in funeral style: first fifty soldiers 
advancing, with a slow-moving lorry after, and then fifty more 
soldiers and a slow-moving lorry, and then at the head of this 
procession a great searchlight, which they would throw onto the 
top of the buildings. They seemed to single out churches more 
than any other buildings, from what I could see. One woman at 
the windows — she was not on the run, but her husband was, and so 
she was stopping wherever she could get a night's rest, and this 
night she was stopping at the hotel — she was well-nigh sick or 
hysterical with fear because she could not know where her husband 
was. And she turned to an English gentleman who was in the parlor 
and said, "Is not this terrible? We can never return to our own 
homes." And he said, "When I return to England I shall tell my 
people that they are waging war on women and children rather 
than on men, for from what I have seen, it is doing more harm to 
the women and children than to the men." I turned to him and 
said, "You are an Englishman?" "I am," he said. "Why did you 
come to Ireland?" I said. "Just to see the conditions." And that 
is all the conversation that occurred then. Later I said, "It is 
frightening me." He said, "It is frightening everyone." 

Then we went into the back room and barricaded the door. On 
each night of our stay in Cork, there were shots near or far away 
from our immediate room. 



125 

HUNCH-BACK MURDERED IN ACT OF PRAYER 

Then I went to Bantry, because my daughter was named after 
someone in Bantry, and I wished her to see her namesake. I had 
never known or met this woman before. On the night I entered 
Bantry the scenes were very terrifying, and I readily concluded that 
one night was all I could stand in Bantry. While in Bantry I talked 
with the mother of a little boy who had been shot a few nights 
previously. That was about the first week in August that the boy 
had been shot. The mother was quite repressive on account of the 
disaster that had occurred in her home. I cannot say her age, but 
she seemed to me a woman well up in the sixties. She said that 
she had one Volunteer son who was on the run, and a little hunch- 
back boy who was at home with her and his father on the night 
that the raid occurred. There were no lights at night on the streets 
of Bantry, and the Black-and-Tans or the R. I. C. — they are dis- 
guised so that one could not tell to which body they belonged — 
they knocked on the door. She answered the knock with a candle 
in her hand. The soldiers knocked the candle from her, using an 
electric light to light them up the stairs. The Volunteer boy was 
not at home. The little hunch-back boy ran from his own room 
into his brother's room. The mother rushed up the stairs after 
them, and was in sight of the tragedy when it occurred. "My boy's 
hands were raised in prayer," she said. "He was only a little 
hunch-back and had never done any harm to anybody. He had 
never done any greater harm than trapping a rabbit now and then 
to make a few pennies to make him feel that he was in the world 
of the living. They shot through his uplifted hands; and his mother 
said that as they shot he was saying, "My Jesus, have mercy on me.*' 
He fell back as a shot pierced his hands, and the men stepped close 
to the bedside and pierced the chest with three bullets. They then 
left the house, and they completed then the raiding in that town. 

Q. Senator Walsh: How old was that hunch-back boy? 

A. I did not ask his age, but I should say about fifteen or 
twenty. 

Q. This was all related to you by the mother? You did not see 
any of it yourself? 

REPRISAL AGAINST A PROTESTANT 

A. I did not see any of it myself. I saw the ravages in the 
town; and, strange to say, one of the worst ravages in that town 
occurred on the home of a Unionist and a man of the Protestant 
faith. Most of the people in the town are of the Catholic faith, 



126 

This man had written a letter about the little hunch-back's death 
and the misconduct of the military to the newspaper, and said he 
also wished to state in public that there had never been any religious 
ill-feeling in their community, and that he had always lived in peace 
and harmony with his neighbors of different faith. The next night 
his place was completely burned, and I saw the ruins of it. There 
was scarcely a stone left upon a stone. I believe at that time he 
had entered a report of damages to the British Government to the 
extent of thirty thousand pounds. It was after making the second 
statement about the misconduct of the military in that town that 
his home was burned. I saw the place that was set on fire. If I 
remember rightly, his name was Hennissey, a man with seven or 
eight children in the family. The house was burned while all the 
occupants were inside the house. I asked if any were burned, and 
they said that fortunately all escaped over the rear walls or through 
the windows, and were only bruised and cut a bit by glass. 

The entire appearance of Bantry is of a devastated town where 
business is at a standstill. The young men of the town are many 
of them on the run. They are sent out from their own homes to 
other places, so that the military cannot find them when they are 
in search of them. This cripples the industry of the town; and 
then the leading places of the town being burned and bombed has 
crippled business. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How large a place is Bantry — three or four 
thousand? 

A. Yes, more than that, I think. It has one long main street. 
While I was there, the day I was there, the workhouse was com- 
mandeered by the soldiers; and the sisters in charge, the Sisters of 
Mercy, were given twenty-four hours to have all their things taken 
out. The poor and the old people of the town were there. I think 
there were twelve sisters in charge of the institution ordinarily. 
And then all the inmates were forced to leave. 

Q. Senator Walsh: The workhouse in Ireland corresponds with 
the. home for the aged here? 

A. Yes; the old and infirm and those who have no one to help 
them. I visited the town of Youghal, a seaside resort, expecting 
to have rest and quiet there. But military lorries patrolled the town 
through the day and through the night, and there was very little 
rest possible. There was a great deal of destruction, and there 
I witnessed a raid on several houses. They were looking for boys 
who were on the run and supposed to be in hiding there. I took 
a ride on the Blackwater up to Cappoquin, accompanied by my 
niece and my daughter and three of my mother's second cousins. 



127 

We were engaged on a studious talk on that occasion. The girls 
were speaking Irish and French to me. It was an interesting gather- 
ing. The tide did not allow us to return easily. We had to oar 
it all the way. We had two oarsmen in the boat, and they worked 
hard until we reached Youghal, about one-thirty in the morning. 
When we reached the landing, military activities on both sides of 
the river commenced. The little boat going down the river made 
them think, perhaps, that it was a Volunteer party, so that lights 
were played on the boat constantly. I was afraid they would fire 
on us, and I began to sing "The Star-Spangled Banner" as well 
as I could sing it. I told the girls, who had, perhaps, a strong 
Southern accent, though they speak a number of languages with 
equal fluency, not to speak, and I would speak in my Yankee tone. 
So I carried on a long conversation about George Washington. 
Then we three Americans all sang "The Star-Spangled Banner," 
and the two oarsmen pulled hard to reach the landing before any 
more signals were given or lights played on the boat. Perhaps the 
signals might be accounted for by the fact that they might have 
thought we were these boys on the run, as they raided many homes' 
in Youghal the following morning. 

BURNING OF TEMPLEMORE TOWN HALL 

I returned to Templemore mainly in the interests of my religious 
convictions a few weeks later, because there had been reported 
something like a miracle transpiring in Templemore. On that 
second visit I saw the ruins of the town hall, and talked to an ex- 
soldier who explained that — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Ex-British soldier, or an Irishman? 

A. Yes, he was an Irish soldier who had served with the British 
forces in the World War, and was still badly crippled. He still 
wore his uniform. He explained how the petrol had been gathered 
from the garages on the little street facing the Square, and how it 
had been poured over this building and set fire to the night before, 
the Black-and-Tans and the military going through the streets 
knocking at the doors and calling, "Come out, you Irish swine." 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Had anything happened before this 
in Templemore? What led them to this attack? 

A. No, not that I could hear of, Miss Addams. 

The town hall was where the people gathered for their pleasure 
gatherings. They poured petrol over it and set fire to it; but one 
soldier, in attempting to burn it, was imprisoned inside, and the 
officer who was with him, in trying to jump through the window, 
had his leg broken and died two days later. 



128 

VOLUNTEERS MAINTAIN ORDER 

Then this religious miracle that the people could only explain 
in one way over there. It created a spirit of friendliness between 
the people inside the barracks and the rest of the people. They 
refused to go on with their wdrk of shooting and terrorizing. I 
was all through that barracks at Templemore. That was the only 
barracks I had a chance of getting into. The windows were all 
barred, and there were large sacks around the windows, and barbed 
wire around the building. 

Q. But what I wanted to get at was what started the military to 
attack Templemore? 

A. I do not know. I could not find anything. I only know 
that this second burning with petrol was caused by the death of the 
officer who had jumped through the window of the burning building. 
. They warned the people that if the officer died the town would be 
razed to the ground. It was at this time that the miracle occurred. 
The people of every kind were immensely impressed with the 
orderly nature of the thousands who poured into the city to see it, 
as were the police themselves. The police were not in any way 
able to keep the thousands or tens of thousands of people who came 
into the city in order, and so the Volunteers did the work. The 
Volunteer who led me into the Square, he led me in ahead of the 
rest because I was an American, and I offered him a pound note 
and he said, "I am a member of the Volunteer Army, and we are 
not allowed to take anything for acts of courtesy," so he refused 
this from me. At this time they were riding out to a town named 
Carriheen, about seven miles from Templemore. Everybody was 
bent on going out to this village, and some of the car drivers were 
exacting up to seventy shillings for the trip. The Volunteers fixed 
the price at something like thirty shillings less, so as to prevent a 
very great graft in carrying people this short distance. They also 
asked each vehicle that passed over the road to contribute a very 
small sum toward the upkeep of the roads around the town, which 
was gladly paid. 

Q. Did they know the Volunteers were doing this? 

A. Yes, they knew, and the police were helpless. They could 
not do anything with this crowd of people; there were too many 
of them. The police would come out and talk with the Volunteers 
and say, "Boys, keep the people back from the police barracks." 



129 

RELATIONS BETWEEN POLICE AND BLACK-AND- 

TANS 

I asked one of the policemen inside of the barracks on this occa- 
sion if he was an Irishman, and he said, "I am." I said, "Are you 
then in sympathy with the Republican movement, or are you in 
sympathy with the Union as heretofore practiced in Ireland?" He 
said, "You must not ask me such a question. There may be some- 
body listening." I said, "If you would resign your position, what 
would happen to you?" And he said to me, "Miss, do you read 
the papers? Do you know that when a policeman resigns he either 
has to get out of the country at this stage of the game or else the 
Black-and-Tans will probably tell him that he has done wrong in 
a very effective way?" I got very little from that. I give it to 
you just as he told it to me. He said the Black-and-Tans would 
soon let a man know that he had done wrong in quitting the force. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: What kind of police? 

A. The R. I. C. They have to give a thirty-day notice to quit 
the force. There was one in Cork who gave this notice, and im- 
mediately there was a police murder in Cork, and the paper said, 
"Killed by parties unknown." 

Q. Commissioner Addams: This same policeman was killed? 

A. Yes, the same man. The policeman in the barracks called 
my attention to the fact that the same man was killed by parties 
unknown. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you get the impression that the Black- 
and-Tan organization was independent of the Royal Irish Constabu- 
lary, and was sort of a spy organization upon the Royal Irish 
Constabulary? 

A. Yes, I did. 

Q. The authorities got the impression that they could not trust 
the Royal Irish Constabulary to do their work, and so checked up 
on them by the Black-and-Tans? 

A. Yes, they did. The two parties do not get along very well 
in most cases. Inside the police barracks there are usually several 
Black-and-Tans. 

Q. You mean to say that the Black-and-Tans became friendly 
with the crowd? 

A. It means all who were in the barracks; because in this bar- 
racks there were only, I think, two Black-and-Tans. I remember 
passing them when I walked into the barracks. There was a great 
deal of respect shown by the military in the adjoining military 



130 

barracks, which is quite distinct from the Royal Irish Constabulary 
barracks, in the way the Volunteers handled the crowd. 

Q. Up to this time there had been no destruction in the town? 

A. Yes, the town hall was destroyed the night before, and they 
were coming back in case this officer died to destroy the town. But 
this little boy had manifested some miraculous evidences, and they 
did not destroy the rest of the town. The crowds were largely 
praying through the day and the night, and the officers looked 
around at the crowds without attempting anything. I had a front 
room in the hotel, the first time I was brave enough to have one, 
and looked out at the crowds. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: These crowds came out in anticipa- 
tion of the town being destroyed? 

A. No, on account of the miracle. The crowds came from all 
parts of Ireland and England. I met many people from England 
who had been waiting to get into the town from six o'clock in the 
morning. 

Q. Senator Walsh: The story had gone out that the miracle 
had occurred there and the people came from all directions to see 
about it? 

A. Yes, that was it. 

KILLINGS AND REPRISALS IN GALWAY 

The main terror of my experience in Ireland was in Galway. I 
had come home late from the Isles of Aran, accompanied there by 
a friend. I went up to get a paper from the platform at the railroad 
station. It was the custom when the goods train came in — there 
were no passenger trains coming into Galway — to have the people 
of the town go up and get the papers from the train. They were 
anxious to get the news of the condition of Mayor MacSwiney. 
There was a man on the platform to whom I paid little attention, 
and could not give a description of him in a satisfactory way. He 
wore what I think was a loose cap. He did not appear to me to 
be a regular soldier, nor did he seem to me to be the customary 
Black-and-Tan. There was a woman on the platform at the station 
with three or four children. There was an English officer on the 
platform, and there were many civilians. I turned my head in this 
direction (indicating aside), and the man in this peculiar uniform 
whipped out a revolver. He was standing with another man in 
ordinary attire. And he slashed the revolver around and began 
shooting. One shot hit a boy in the leg, and I heard him call, "I 
got it in the leg." I ran then for shelter to the door of the hotel, 
and looked at the woman running to the British officer with her 



131 

children. He seemed to be wholly engaged in keeping this woman 
and children safe. I thought at the time they were his family, but 
I do not know that. One of the boys stepped up quickly to the 
man who had been shot, and then I heard another shot ring out. 
That boy was not killed instantly, but fell at once. He later died, 
and the next day I saw him in death. Then another boy jumped 
from the back and caught the soldier in this way (indicating across 
the body), so that he had only one hand free. And then a harsh 
shot rang out and this soldier fell to the ground. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Who fired the first shot? 

A. This man in a strange attire. He was not dressed as a 
Black-and-Tan that night. There was perfect peace, and we were 
all waiting for the papers, and he whipped out the revolver and 
began to fire. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What was the purpose of the shooting? 

A. That I could not tell. The reason I went to Galway was that 
everything was quiet there. There was no curfew there and every- 
thing was quiet. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Could you give any information why a man 
on the station platform, without any reason — a Black-and-Tan or 
anybody else — would draw a revolver and begin to fire shots? 

A. I cannot say. Unless there is some actual damage done in 
the town by civilians or others, there is no curfew law. And there 
was no curfew law in Galway. 

Q. So you think that this man was stationed there to shoot so 
that the curfew law would be applied to Galway? 

A. That is what has been suggested. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: The man was not insane? 

A. Not that I know. 

Q. Could you gather whether the man who did the shooting was 
an Englishman or an Irishman? 

A. He was an Englishman as well as I could gather from the 
gathering of men in the hotel immediately after the shooting. It 
was what is known over there as a shoneen hotel, where many 
British officers stay. I chose this hotel for my own safety. The 
officers who were there during the day were downstairs with their 
bathrobes about them. One man in full civilian dress, with the 
same sort of a cap on him as the man on the outside had, stepped 
up to a man right at my side and asked who had been shot. He 
said, "I don't know who he was." And then the other man said, 
"Tell me how he was dressed." The man by my side described him 
as best he could, and then the man with the cap on said, "My God, 
it is my brother," and dashed up the hotel stairs. And then in 



132 

about three minutes he jumped down the stairway of the hotel and 
hurried out, stopping to talk to no one and pushing them in front 
of him very rapidly. 

Immediately the crowd said there would be a raid this night. 1 
had a front room up to this time, for I was unafraid. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You understood that this man said that the 
Englishman who was speaking was a brother to the man who fired 
the shot and was later killed? 

A. Yes, sir. I w T ent to my room and did not undress. I threw 
a loose coat about me and lay on the bed, awaiting danger. I was 
not asleep. Presently I heard the tramp of soldiers approaching. 
I had with me, I may explain, a few letters from the Countess 
Markievicz introducing me to a British general, General Barton, who 
is now in Pentonville prison, I believe. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is General Barton the distinguished general 
who did such splendid service during the war, and returned to 
Ireland, and was converted to Sinn Fein? 

A. Yes, he is now in Pentonville prison. 

Q. You had a letter to him? 

A. Yes, I had a letter from his sister, and also two or three 
letters from a man in Cork whose business was ruined and who got 
out this letter, and I bought several of them for souvenirs. I also 
had this copy of Dail Eireann, which was given to me by the 
Minister of Labor, Countess Markievicz. I also had the card of 
Lord Mayor MacSwiney for a souvenir. I had nothing else, with 
the exception of one or two things as souvenirs. I had a letter to 
Mrs. Bryce, the sister-in-law of our former ambassador. All of these 
things seemed to me to be contraband of war, and I became abso- 
lutely terrorized, thinking that any minute they might connect me 
with this murder case and hurry me off to prison. I could not light 
a light because, as I looked outside the window, the soldiers were 
immediately outside the hotel door. There seemed to be about two 
hundred fifty of them, with helmets on them and fully accoutered 
in war clothing. I drew back in the room and held these papers 
as if they were absolutely deadly instruments instead of mere 
writings. I began to chew up the Lord Mayor's card. I was afraid 
they would enter the room, and the papers fell out of my hand to 
the floor and I could not see all of them. I then opened the door 
and called to the only man whom I saw walking in the corridor. 
I called to him and said: "I am ill and am alone, and want you 
to come in and help me gather some papers." He said, "What 
papers are they?" I said, "They are merely personal correspond- 
ence. I want to get them out of the way." He said, "Then destroy 



133 

them." I said, "Yes, destroy them, but one cannot light a light in 
here.'* He said, "Follow me." I followed him into the lavatory, 
and he said, "Throw them into the lavatory." I said, "If they 
don't go down, and they find them, what will happen to me? Then 
I will be shot." He said, "Give them to me," and tore them up in 
bits and got rid of them, and then he asked me, "What right have 
you to have them?" I said, "They are only letters." He said, "Do 
not carry any letters or even what is printed. The law makes what 
was printed or written legally only a few weeks ago a sedition- 
document now." 

Then I went out into the hall and saw two British officers, and 
said, "Will some of you men come down? I am alone back here. 
This seems to be war on women more than on men." The man said. 
"You may go into your room. There will be nothing happen to you. 
You are an American. They are only taking reprisals out in the 
street." I said, "What do you mean by reprisals?" He said. 
"They are shooting some of the townspeople that deserve shooting." 
The shootings continued, volley after volley. 

Q. Senator Walsh: During all this time was there shooting 



iroing on 



A. Right outside the door, iou could hear the shooting and 
the commands given to the soldiers. I went the next morning to a 
home that had been almost completely destroyed, petrol having been 
poured upon it. One of the ladies there had just returned to Ireland 
on a trip from America, after fifty years' absence. Her trunk was 
burned in the fire. The house had been attacked and they had 
broken the windows before trying to burn it. The women got out 
to safety. 

Q. Why was this house attacked? 

A. There was a young boy there named Broderick who was taken 
out to be shot because he was a Volunteer. He is not dead; he is in 
charge of the military now, or has escaped. The Black-and-Tans 
kept the firing up, and then they went to the lodgings of a young 
boy named Quirk. His corpse was found early the next morning. 
There were nine bullet holes in his body below the waist. He was 
taken to the spot where the Black-and-Tan was shot, and then he 
was shot nine times below the waist-line, and did not die until three 
hours later. He was virtually disemboweled. There were pools of 
blood from the station just across the way clear across the street. 
He died at five o'clock in the morning. His name was Quirk, and 
he was on the run from Cork. There were no inquests allowed in 
these cases. At five o'clock in the morning there was a very grea! 
sound of breaking, although the military were returning, and I was 



134 

up and dressed and out in the hall to be near the British officers 
when the bullets were flying. It was not the return of the military. 
They were engaged in battering down the only newspaper in the 
town. It is called The Galway Express. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Who was battering down this 
paper? 

A. The Black-and-Tans. They battered down everything in the 
office. I saw the office at eight o'clock the next morning, and there 
was not a vestige of the machinery left. Everything was on the 
floor in heaps. I saw the manager of the place stooping down and 
gathering up single bits of type which he saw on the floor. They 
gathered up enough type to get out a special edition of the paper 
on a little sheet like this (holding up copy). I would like to read 
you what it says (reads) : 

"The Galway Express, Thursday, September Ninth. Special 
Issue. Price, one penny. The Murder of Innocent Men. People's 
Admirable Restraint Under Extreme Provocation. Galway Express 
Premises Demolished. An Unparalleled Outbreak of Crime Took 
Place in Galway This Morning." 

The Witness: Perhaps I had better not read it. It is all like 
that. Only this line (reads) : 

"While definitely charging the Royal Irish Constabulary with full 
responsibility for the murders, we feel it incumbent upon us to 
counsel the people of Galway to remain calm under this terrible 
provocation. We regret that under the circumstances we cannot 
make any announcement of the exact date on which we will resume 
publication. Remember, Galway men and Galway women, the 
watchword is, KEEP COOL." 

I saw also the body, the corpse of the young Volunteer who was 
shot on the station platform. There was one bullet hole clear 
through his head. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: May I not ask you about this? 
Is it not the same case that Dr. Cotter told us about yesterday? 

A. It is the same case. I do not think Dr. Cotter was on the 
platform. I happened to be there at the time. I think he was in 
the hotel. 

Q. Do you not think that the man was running amuck, as we 
say? Was he not crazy to do that when women and children 
were about? 

A. That has happened in several different towns. So there 
must be several insane men about. 

Q. That could happen under the abnormal pressure of that 
situation. But you think that there was no provocation? 






135 

A. No. Galway was a very quiet town, and there was no provo- 
cation or there would have been a curfew. 

Q. But it might have been done more suddenly. 

A. The idea, I believe, was to provoke the people into open 
rebellion. I imagine that from what I have said. 

In Limerick I had a rear room in the hotel, and I was awakened 
from my sleep by the cries, "Halt" and "Fire." I jumped from my 
bed and dressed quickly. The same cry rang out: "Halt," "Hands 
Up," "Fire." It terrified me. I looked into the court yard and 
there was nobody there. Presently I opened my door and called 
for some help. The lady clerk came and said, "Never mind. That 
is a man who was on the run, and he was caught and escaped. His 
mind is a little shattered now, and he is resting in the next room. 
He does that now all through the night. 

BRAWLS AND DRINKING IN BARRACKS 

I think you asked me, Mr. Walsh, about the amicable relations 
between the Black-and-Tans and R. I. C? 

Senator Walsh: Yes. 

The Witness: I had the privilege of going into a prison, and 
while there, one in the prison, not incarcerated, told me that they 
had spent the previous day in watching the conduct between the 
Black-and-Tans and the R. I. C, and that there was great disorder 
within the barracks where they were staying the day before, and 
that there was a great deal of whiskey being drunk, and that caused 
open rebellion between the R. I. C. and the Black-and-Tans, and 
there was as much fighting going on inside as there was outside the 
barrack. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Are you at liberty to name that place? 

A. I would not be privileged to name it, because the man whom 
I mention is now on the run, and he was in the prison as well as 
in the barrack. I could give you intimate details of what was going 
on in the barrack. 

I might say that when I reported to the police on the day when 
Balbriggan was devastated, both the policeman who took my report 
and the policeman who checked it up, and the two policemen who 
came to look at the American who came in with the passport, all 
were strongly under the influence of drink. That is, their eyes 
were very bloodshot, their faces very red, the pronunciation of their 
words very guttural, and their entire attitude indicated it. The one 
who took my report was a man from England. He was not dressed 
as the other men. He did not even have on a collar, and had his 



136 

shirt front tucked down in careless fashion, and did not know 
anything of the places I had visited in Ireland, and knew only 
places in England where I was going. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they smell of liquor? 

A. Yes, they did. 

Q. How many of them? 

A. There were five. 

Q. Where was this? 

A. In Dublin. 

Q. What building? 

A. The Strong Street Station. 

Q. Police station? 

A. Yes. 

Q. When you went to the police station to arrange for your 
itinerary in Ireland, yon met these officers of the government, and 
it was while you were talking with them that you observed their 
situation? 

A. Yes. 

Q. It was about what hour of the day? 

A. About three o'clock in the afternoon. One had come out of 
a side room, as if awakened from sleep, and he looked as if he was 
not in any condition to talk to anyone. 

Q. He was drunk? 

A. He was not so much drunk as in the condition of emerging 
from drinking. 

DESTRUCTION IN LIMERICK 

1 may say that in Limerick I went down one whole street and 
went down both sides of the street counting one house after another, 
and found not one undevastated house in the whole street. It was 
the street where the poor people lived, called Kerry Row. I asked 
them about the conditions on the day on which their homes were 
destroyed, and they all had a pitiable tale to tell. In Limerick the 
B!ack-and-Tans are still patrolling the streets in groups of eight to 
ten, and lorries were passing down the principal thoroughfares. 
Many homes were burned, and during the night there was a home 
bombed and burned while I was there. 

Q. Did you find any peaceful conditions anywhere in Ireland? 

A. Let me see. 1 think the most peaceful place I found was at 
Lisdoonvarna. 

Q. Mow main places did you visit? 

A. I visited. 1 think, forty or fifty towns in Ireland. 



137 

Q. And this was the only place where you found normal con- 
ditions? 

A. The conditions were not normal there, but the conditions 
were less terrorizing than in any other town I visited. It is a water- 
ing place, and there are many English officers there. 

Q. What is your nationality? 

A. My father is of English descent, and my mother, Irish. 

I have here letters from the Minister of Labor in Ireland, show- 
ing the nature of the laws as operated by the Republican forces. 
This was given to me by the Countess Markievicz, the Minister of 
Labor; it was issued a few days before t visited her. It shows how 
the 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is it printed in Gaelic or in English? 

A. It is printed in both. 

Q. Can you leave it with us for a few hours? 

A. I can leave it. 

IN BURNED BALBRIGGAN 

I was going to say that I have more to tell you from Balbriggan. 
I was in the room while the testimony was given. But I went out to 
Balbriggan the following day, the day before Patrick Lynch was 
killed in a Dublin hotel. I went out, but I was so terrified by the 
appearances — it seemed to me that hundreds of Black- and-Tans were 
on the roads going out — wonderful military activity. As you ap- 
proached the town, you met the people fleeing, with sometimes 
pathetic amounts of baggage in their hands. Sometimes they were 
taking all they had with them. I met many women with children 
huddled about their skirts, fleeing from the town. I witnessed all 
the burned buildings that have been spoken about this morning. 
The terror of the roads is quite indescribable! 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 

Senator Walsh (presiding) : Mr. Hackett, will you be here until 
half -past two? 

Mr. Hackett: Yes. 

Senator Walsh: We shall adjourn, then, until half-past two. 

(1:15 P.M.) 



TESTIMONY OF FRANCIS HACKETT 

(2:35 P. M.) 

Chairman Howe: The session will please come to order. The 
first witness this afternoon is Mr. Francis Hackett of the New 
Republic, New York. (The witness takes the stand.) 



138 

Q. Mr. Hackett, will you please state your professional relations 
and anything else about yourself that you desire, as a preliminary 
statement of fact? 

A. First of all, I think I had better state that I am an Irishman 
born. I have been in this country since 1900. I think I was about 
eighteen when I came here. And I have lived here continuously 
since, with the exception of one year. I was a year in Ireland in 
1912 to 1913. I went home for personal reasons. My father was 
ill, and I stayed with him as long as he lived. Then I came back 
to this country and became an editor of the New Republic, and 
stayed in this country until last May. My wife, Miss Toksvig, and 
myself went then to England and then to Denmark for five weeks, 
and reached Ireland in July, — towards the end of July, and stayed 
there until the end of September. We were then eight weeks in 
Ireland. I went to Ireland for two reasons: one was to see my 
own people, and the other was to write a few articles for the New 
York World and to make an investigation as much all over the 
country as possible under the circumstances. As I said, we stayed 
there for eight weeks, going over the ground in the south and north 
and west of Ireland, and, of course, in Dublin a great deal. 

Q. How much country did you cover? 

A. I should say we covered roughly about two-thirds of the 
country. We went to my home town, which is a small place, Kil- 
kenny. We went from Kilkenny to Waterford, and from Waterford 
to Drogheda, and from Drogheda to Cork, and to Kerry for a few 
days, and then to Limerick, and then to Dublin, and then to Bel- 
fast, and then to Galway, and back to Dublin and Kilkenny; and 
then we spent several days in Londonderry before we sailed. 

Q. All this time you were gathering material for the work you 
were "doing for the New York World? 

A. Exactly. 

Q. And you are also the author of a book on Ireland? 

A. Yes. 

INDEPENDENCE THE SOLE SOLUTION OF IRISH 

ISSUE 

When I went home in 1913 I was particularly interested in the 
economic conditions in Ireland. I thought that the Irish question 
was largely a democratic economic question, — the question of the 



139 

struggle of lower classes to come up. In other words, the very 
much same sort of struggle that was going on in England, but com- 
plicated by the fact that the ruling class, the shell, was not only 
different economically but also different racially. I made up my 
mind while I was there to collect all the material I could that bore 
on that subject, and then to write a book on Ireland after my return 
to America. At first I thought of calling the book "What America 
Could Teach Ireland." I thought there was a great deal to be 
learned from this country in practical ways as far as education was 
concerned, as far as self-help is concerned, the organization of 
laborers, the organization of educational bodies, and that sort of 
thing. I did not get the book completed until the war came on, and 
a lot of preconceptions that I had about the possibilities of self-help 
and the unimportance of politics went. I became convinced that it 
did matter what political relations you had and what the sover- 
eignty of a country was. After we went into the war, I determined 
that since Ireland was a small nation in the same sort of plight with 
a great many other small nations, I made a great effort to get out 
my book. And I got out this book, which is about four hundred 
pages, in 1914. I got it out because I came to believe that the thing 
that the Irish had to do was to get a working relationship in Ireland, 
and in order to do so they must have a measure of self-government 
in Ireland. At the time I believed that the best measure they could 
get was a measure of dominion home rule. I wrote the book with 
that as a conclusion; the helpful thing for Ireland was not to get 
an economically workable solution like the Home Rule Bill of 1914, 
but an economically workable solution like the Dominion Acts of 
Canada and Australia and South Africa. In 1919, after observing 
the situation, I came to the conclusion that the British were not in 
a position to give the Irish that solution. There was no prospect 
for a solution along this line; that the real vitality in Ireland was a 
vitality that demanded a different solution — a solution along the 
lines laid down by President Wilson for the squaring of the troubles 
on the continent of Europe. Sir Horace Plunkett, who came to this 
country in 1919, asked me if I would be the representative for a 
new paper he was about to start called The New Statesman. I made 
up my mind that it would be against the will of the majority of the 
Irish people to advocate the solution he represented, and I deter- 
mined to publish a new edition of my book stating that the Irish 
problem solution was to give the Irish the same sort of autonomy 
that the American Republic achieved in 1776. In 1914 I wrote in 



140 

the New Republic that the English were taking a course of action 
that any Englishman would see was leading to an armed crisis. 
Certainly it was apparent to any man who had studied the Irish 
situation that something like that was bound to occur. 

When I went to Ireland, I went not only to investigate the facts, 
but also to interpret them. I saw the situation very like the situation 
in Finland that we have long been familiar with; like the situation 
in Bohemia, the Jugo-Slav situation, the Schleswig situation, the 
Armenian situation, the Alsace-Lorraine situation, — the situation of 
a people that had long been imperialized struggling to get for 
themselves conditions of self-development that they could not get 
without a new constitution, — a new constitution that they only could 
hope to get by securing independence. I was very instructed in that 
field by the attitude that we ourselves took in this country toward 
similar struggles. On my paper, the New Republic, we had two 
members of our staff who went to work for the United States Gov- 
ernment after we went into the war in 1917, and their particular job 
was this: they went into Military Intelligence, and they were dis- 
patched by our government to England. And there they worked out 
in conjunction with certain Englishmen a policy by which they 
would get information over to the Czecho-Slovaks, who were fight- 
ing for Austria, by which they would persuade the Czecho-Slovak^ 
not to fight for Austria but to desert the cause of Austria, and to 
assert their own legitimate claims to freedom by deserting Austria. 
I bring this point in for this purpose: everything depends in these 
situations of nationalism on what you mean by law and order and 
what you mean by lawlessness. When a man like Sir Roger Case- 
ment, for example, went to the Irish soldiers who were in the British 
army and said the same thing to them that the editors of the New 
Republic said to the Czecho-Slovaks by sending them similar mes- 
sages tied to balloons that were timed to come down at the right 
time and in the right places, Sir Roger Casement was tried and exe- 
cuted for treason for that sort of propaganda. But we of the United 
States saw that justice for Czecho-Slovakia and other small nations 
on the continent of Europe meant that they could not be free unless 
they broke away from an empire that was sacrificing them. 

PURPOSE IN GOING TO IRELAND 

1 conceived that there was some such sort of situation in Ireland, 
and in order to interpret the facts, one had to find out what one 
meant bv law and order. And I went to Ireland to answer two 



141 

questions for myself: I was told in London that the Irish were kill- 
ing police, and that the Irish were being lawless, and that the law- 
lessness was in the hands of a band of young men who were not 
responsible, and that that lawless situation in Ireland must be met 
with force, — by the use of military force. I was told by certain 
Englishmen in conversation that that was the real interpretation of 
the Irish situation. The manager of Cook's bank in London told 
me that that was the true solution of the Irish situation. I met an 
old man on the street whose bag I carried (although at first he was 
a bit sceptical and thought I might be a pickpocket, yet he finally 
did take a chance, for the bag was heavy) , and he told me that that 
was the solution of the Irish question. I found that that was the 
general idea in England ; on the one hand, a band of extremists who 
were excitable and did not know what they wanted and who were 
killing the police who were striving to maintain law and order; and 
on the other hand a band of noble, heroic police seeking to suppress 
this lawlessness. And I went to Ireland to find out if that was the 
case. 

I have been here for two days and heard the testimony of various 
kinds covering what happened in Dublin and Thurles and Balbrig- 
gan, and perhaps I could help out if I stated other facts. 

Q. Chairman Howe: I would like to have you state whether you 
found those facts general in Ireland, and also tell what you think 
should be done. 

Senator Walsh: May I interrupt you to inquire about your re- 
ligion? 

A. May I tell you exactly what my religion is? I was born in 
the Roman Catholic Church. I have a brother in the clergy who is 
now stationed in Limerick, who is a hot Sinn Feiner, but who, dur- 
ing trouble in Limerick, saved the lives of three English officers. 

Q. I do not want to be personal at all, but I want to weigh your 
evidence by way of your religious convictions. 

A. I formed a new religion when I came to this country. I am 
a man of religious feeling, but I am a member of no church. I have 
not been inside a church, except for curiosity, for twenty years. 

Q. Did you have Sinn Fein sympathies when you went to Ire- 
land? 

A. I have always sympathized with Sinn Fein as an aspiration. 
I have never believed it was practicable until 1919. In 1919, when 
Sir Horace Plunkett asked me to be the representative of his paper, 
I had to make a choice, and I decided that Sinn Fein was practical. 



142 

and was the only healthy moral thing for the Irish to act upon. 
They really wanted independence, in my belief, and they had to be 
honest with themselves. There was no use saying they wanted a 
half-measure when they wanted independence. 

Senator Walsh: Excuse the interruption. I merely wanted to 
get the background. 

ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY ORIGINATED FOR 
POLITICAL PURPOSE 

The Witness: First, when I went into Ireland I found the Royal 
Irish Constabulary. They were invented by Peel in 1820. There 
was trouble in Ireland a hundred years ago just as there is today, — 
trouble in Cork and Belfast and Dublin and elsewhere. The gov- 
ernment was authorized by Peel to put the military into Ireland. 
If you made a chart of the police stations in Ireland, you would find 
that if you had a gridiron with spaces ten miles square and covering 
Ireland, you would find a police station in the center of each space 
of the gridiron. Sometimes the police stations are in hamlets of a 
few homes, and sometimes in a town like Kilkenny you will find 
forty or fifty policemen. The number of policemen in Scotland is 
about three to four thousand. In Ireland there are from thirty to 
forty thousand police. In population the two countries are about 
the same size: Scotland has 4,700,000 and Ireland 4,300,000. Ire- 
land, then, has ten times as many police to the population as has 
Scotland. And this in time of peace when crimes like manslaughter 
and murder have always been less in Ireland than in Scotland. The 
police were put in Ireland for a political purpose. They were really 
the advance-guard of imperialism. They were there not because 
there was work for them to do, but because there might be work 
for them to do, largely in regard to public opinion. Three-fourths 
of the police are Catholics, but the men were picked for other rea- 
sons. Oxford and Cambridge men were preferred for the police. 
The police were always semi-armed, — bayonets on their belts and 
batons. And they always had in the barracks carbines, and were 
drilled by the military in the barracks yards. They were recruited 
from the Irish peasantry. If the farm could not support two or 
three men in Kerry or Tipperary or Cork, the boy would go into the 
police. It was never looked upon as a very desirable occupation, 
but if there was no work to do on the farm, the boys would go into 
the police. 



143 

POLICE ACT AS SPIES FOR MILITARY 

After 1916 and the uprising in Dublin a new situation occurred 
with regard to the police that is very important to grasp. When the 
rising took place, it only took place in Dublin and in Galway. But 
it was firmly believed that there were plans for a rising all over 
Ireland. The week after the rising, troops were brought into Ire- 
land. They poured into the country in great numbers. There were 
a thousand in Kilkenny. The military immediately got into touch 
with the police and said: "Who are the people here who are sus- 
pected of being Sinn Feiners, or people of independent opinion, or 
dangerous people?" The head constable in my own town of Kil- 
kenny gave a list to the military of people who had ever given him 
any trouble of any kind. In that little town, over fifty young men 
were deported, young men who belonged to Sinn Fein and others 
who believed in the Republican movement philosophically. It was 
a philosophical belief rather than an armed program. About two 
thousand people were deported from Ireland to detention camps in 
England. Those men went with a certain feeling toward the police, 
and then when they came back they were down on the police books 
as radicals and dangerous men. And then the fight for conscription 
began in Ireland, and it became necessary to make a case out for 
conscription and also for the attitude of Ireland in regard to Ger- 
many. And so the discovery was made that there was in Ireland a 
German plot. In 1917 the Irish convention was called by Lloyd 
George, and there was an amnesty. And in 1918 there were a large 
number of men arrested and kept in England without trial for about 
ten months and then released. In 1917 and 1918 the police became 
very anxious in Ireland about the people in case they should resist 
conscription. 

THE ULSTER REBELLION TREASON AGAINST THE 

CROWN 

It was particularly important because there was a contrast in the 
treatment between the people in the south of Ireland and the people 
in the north of Ireland. If I may dwell on this question for about 
three minutes I think it will illuminate the attitude of the Irish 
people toward law and order. In 1913 when I was home there was 
a rebellion going on in Ireland of a very respectable character. It 
was headed by Lord Londonderry, Lord Willoughby de Broke, the 
Duke of Abercorn, Sir Edward Carson, Lord Birkenhead, General 



144 

Hackett Payne, who is now the military commander in Ulster, and 
a large number of other gentlemen from the House of Lords in 
England, and other persons who might be called by an unsym- 
pathetic person members of the Junker class. These men had or- 
ganized rebellion against the British Government because there was 
in process of being passed by Parliament a Home Rule Bill for Ire- 
land; the point of this rebellion by these gentlemen Junkers was 
that Ulster was to be brought under the Home Rule bill, and they 
did not want that to be brought about. They wanted Ulster inde- 
pendent. A projected independence for Ulster was arranged by Sir 
Edward Carson, and a virtual revolution declared in 1914. Machine 
guns and rifles were imported from Germany, and 

Q. Senator Walsh: Before autumn of 1914? 

A. Late in 1913 and early in 1914. This effort to bring arms to 
Ireland was going on all the time, and was very successful because 
the military authorities did not try to stop it. 

Q. You began to utter the sentence that the British officers ab- 
sented themselves from the docks, and by their absence allowed the 
revolutionists in the north of Ireland to receive arms and munitions 
from Germany, did you not? 

A. Exactly. 

Q. Who were the leaders in this movement in the north of Ire- 
land? 

A. The leaders were Sir Edward Carson, Mr. Bonar Law, F. E. 
Smith, who is now Lord Birkenhead, Lord Chancellor of England. 
Lord Londonderry, who is now dead, and various members of the 
House of Lords. The chief recruiting officer of that lot in London 
was Lord Roberts. They raised large sums of money. They raised 
five thousand dollars for Red Cross work — at least they raised it on 
paper. They had a huge parade in Belfast that was attended by 
newspaper reporters from all over the world; also by reporters from 
Germany, who wanted to see how big the revolution was going to be. 

Q. What was the organization called? 

A. The Ulster Volunteers. By the way, I must point out that at 
this time there was a Liberal government in England. The Liberal 
government almost got to the point of arresting Sir Edward Carson; 
but it was recently disclosed by Colonel Reppington in his biography 
of the war that when the arrest of Sir Edward Carson was brought 
up by the Liberal government, the King absolutely prohibited the 
arrest. 



145 

Q. What was the charge against him? 

A. Treason against the Crown. Sir Edward Carson said : "There 
is no need to inform me that what I am doing is anarchy. I know 
it." And he was very well informed about it, for he knew that the 
British army would not move against Ulster. Orders were given to 
troops to move from Kildare to Ulster, and they refused to move. 
Certain resignations were taken from the army on that occasion. 
One of the resigners was Lord French, who is now Lord Lieutenant 
of Ireland; also General Hackett Payne, who was then recruiting 
for the army, and is now in command of the government troops in 
Munster. You might not remember that some months later Sir 
Edward Carson was put into the British Cabinet. 

THE SOUTH OF IRELAND ARMS IN DEFENSE 

The young men in the south of Ireland said: "Now the north of 
Ireland is armed. We have never been allowed to have arms in the 
south of Ireland, except for field sports,- — shotguns and so forth." 
Permits were given by the local authorities, the resident magis- 
trates, for sporting guns and rifles, — I imagine to shoot rooks with, 
and things like that. The lists of people who had such guns were 
known to the police, and usually hung up in the post-office. Thev 
were usually rich people. The people of the south of Ireland made 
up their minds that if the north of Ireland were to be armed, that 
they were to be armed too. Perhaps it was a reprehensible thing, 
from my humanitarian point of view, a very bad thing; but perhaps 
it was human. The moment the south of Ireland began to import 
arms, the government moved. The last day of August, 1914, a 
yacht brought arms to a place called Howth outside of Dublin, and 
landed arms to a body called the National Volunteers. The 
troops 

Q. Senator Walsh: The British troops? 

BACHELOR'S WALK MASSACRE ALIENATES IRISH 

FROM WAR 

A. The British troops and the police were sent to intercept those 
arms, and they failed to get there in time to intercept them. They 
came back to the city of Dublin from Howth, a seven miles' walk. 
The people came out from the terrible slums of Dublin, and I think 
they must have jeered at the soldiers. Some said they also threw 



146 

stones. There was a good deal of feeling against the soldiers. The 
soldiers fired into the crowd and killed four and wounded about 
sixty. This was in the week before the declaration of war against 
Germany. The young Sinn Fein men who were running the three 
or four papers that were allowed to be published said: "This is the 
beginning of the end in Ireland. Blood has been shed by the Brit- 
ish soldiers." There was an inquest after this killing that was a 
whitewash. The regiment was moved away. The young Sinn 
Feiners said: "We have no sympathy with the war to be fought by 
men who have just been killing civilians on the streets of Dublin 
with only very slight provocation." 

HEROES OR CRIMINALS? 
Then you have got the situation developing in 1916 and the use 
of the police for political purposes. They were used to root out all 
the young men of advanced ideas, and in many cases the women, 
and to put all those who had any idea of freedom for Ireland in 
the place of criminals. You got a contrast all the time there be- 
tween the heroes of Poland and the people of Czecho-Slovakia and 
the people in Schleswig and Finland and Alsace-Lorraine who had 
no part in this war, — who were going to be given their freedom; 
the contrast between them and the people of Ireland, who had simi- 
lar claims and who were regarded as criminals. 

HOME RULE, TOO LONG DEFERRED, 
DESPAIRED OF 

Q. Senator Walsh: For the sake of the record, will you state 
how far and to what extent the Home Rule Bill had reached at the 
outbreak of the war? 

A. There was no dominion home rule bill. There was pending 
a bill to give Ireland a sort of qualified home rule. 

Q. That bill was accepted by Redmond and that party, but not 
acceptable to the Ulsterites? 

A. Yes, not acceptable to the Ulsterites. It had passed the House 
of Lords, and the King was to sign it on September 14, 1914. He 
signed it, and it was to become law for Ireland. But a compromise 
was reached by which it was to be held up and not become law until 
an amendment was passed making some provision for Ulster. 

Q. How can a bill that had been passed and signed be held up? 

A. Senator Walsh, the British constitution is an unwritten docu- 
ment, depending upon the interpretation of lawyers. The idea was 



147 

that they had suspended this law for one year, and that this amend- 
ment was to be made. 

Q. The bill was enacted, but the administrative forces refused, 
or by agreement did not provide machinery to carry it out? 

A. Exactly. That is the legal situation. The bill has since been 
repealed. As part of the Home Rule Bill now before the House of 
Commons, this Home Rule Bill is to be repealed. 

Q. Was it apparent that during all that time in 1914 that this 
bill was to be passed by the House of Lords? 

A. The bill was never passed by the House of Lords. But in 
1910 

Q. Yes, I know. It was passed twice by the House of Commons, 
which made the action of the House of Lords unnecessary. 

A. Yes, in 1910 a Veto Bill was passed that if the House of 
Lords rejected a bill passed by the House of Commons twice, it 
could be passed over their heads. 

The people say in Ireland: Do you want Dominion Home Rule 
in Ireland? They say: Suppose we do agree to accept Dominion 
Home Rule, and that bill is introduced in the House of Commons, 
and it is then passed after many amendments to it. It then goes to 
the House of Lords, and is rejected. It is then passed by the House 
of Commons and given back to the House of Lords, and is then 
rejected. Then many amendments are made, and it then goes back 
to the House of Lords. And then it is, after four years, again really 
enacted by the Commons and goes to the King for his signature, 
and afterwards put on the statute books. And then there will be 
other details and delays until, they say, perhaps by that time our 
great grandchildren will be interested in it. And they say: We 
have no interest in a Home Rule Bill along those lines. 

When I went to Ireland I went to get an answer to these ques- 
tions: Is it true, as they say in London, that the Irish are killing 
policemen, and that the Irish who are killing policemen are a small 
band of extremists? I went all over the ground that we heard 
covered this morning. It seems to me that what was said is per- 
fectly in accord with the facts. 

EXTENT OF MILITARY RULE IN IRELAND 

Now, I went to a number of places in Ireland, first of all with 
the preoccupation of finding out the facts about military rule: how 
far does military rule exist in Ireland? I tried first of all to find 
out how many troops were there in Ireland. It is generally be- 



148 

lieved that the number of troops in this country would be three to 
four hundred thousand. 

Senator Walsh: Before the war about one hundred fifty thou- 
sand. Our new bill provides for much more than that. 

The Witness: In Ireland, which is a country of four million 
three hundred thousand people, the British government said there 
were about fifty thousand troops. Mr. Arthur Griffith, the acting 
president of the Irish Republic, said he could prove there were one 
hundred thirty thousand troops stationed in Ireland. In addition to 
those, there were around thirty thousand of the Irish police, less 
about one thousand that had resigned, plus about a thousand re- 
cruited Black-and-Tans who had the status of sergeants and a large 
body of Black-and-Tans who came in with the ordinary status of 
constable, — perhaps six or seven thousand. So you got in all a 
body hovering around one hundred fifty thousand, as large as the 
ordinary peace establishment in the United States, which has a 
population of one hundred million; that is to say, twenty-five times 
as many per person as would normally be here before the war. 

Q. Chairman Howe: That was true when you left? 

A. Before I left I saw Arthur Griffith, late in September. I 
need not tell you that it is impossible to find out from the British 
Government how many troops there are in Ireland. They convert 
homes and public buildings of all sorts into barracks, so that it is 
impossible to tell how many there are. Before the war Ireland was 
a great training ground for British troops, — perhaps twenty-five 
thousand always in training there. 

I am just trying to give the first crude aspects of British rule. 
Perhaps it would be more interesting to the Commission if I an- 
swered questions which would be given rather than relate my own 
account. 

WHY POLICEMEN ARE KILLED 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I think it would be interesting to 
know how many policemen were killed. 

A. I wanted to find out why the policemen were killed and how 
many were killed. The numbers given in the British House of Com- 
mons are about one hundred twenty killed during the last few years 
in Ireland. The situation may be illuminated if I hand in a pam- 
phlet called "The Two Years of British Atrocities in Ireland." That 
is the pamphlet compiled by the Sinn Feiners giving the numbers 
of civilians killed in Ireland before a single policeman was killed 



149 

in Ireland. In 1916 no policeman was killed in Ireland. As 1 
understand it, in 1917-1918 there were about a dozen murder,-- 
charged to the policy and about twenty thousand raids, a number 
of which are detailed here, the suppression of newspapers, and so 
forth, all of which you have heard described. 

Q. Senator Walsh: All of this, as I understand it. was before 
the killing of any police officer? 

A. Yes, sir, previous to the killing of any police. Then ihe 
killing of police began. Sometimes they have been ambushed and 
killed. On one occasion a policeman was killed going into chapel 
to mass. On another occasion a policeman has been killed on patrol 
formation. On one occasion a patrol came into contact with a 
small group of armed Sinn Feiners. They fired, and fell back into 
a ditch, and the young Sinn Feiners returned the fire. These police- 
men were killed fighting. Some policemen have resigned from the 
force and then been killed. One was killed at Oranmore in Sep- 
tember after he had resigned. 

Q. Is it the intimation that the police officer who resigns and is 
killed is killed by the British authorities, or by the Sinn Feiners? 

A. That is rather interesting. I have never heard that imputa- 
tion until today. But I can give the case specifically where Black- 
and-Tans have called at the home of a man who has resigned and 
have brought him out of his home and flogged him mercilessly. So 
that that explanation seems to me to be plausible. On the other 
hand, I heard of this case, where the policeman was killed by mis- 
take. 

So I went to the Sinn Feiners and said: "Why are these police 
killed? Why was Allan Bell killed in Dublin, that old magis- 
trate?" Certain Sinn Feiners said: "Oh, it is all done by impetuous 
young people/' But as I got down into contact with responsible 
men, they said, — many of them said: "This killing of policemen is 
a necessary act of justice. As far as we know, no policeman has 
been killed who has not been tried. If a policeman commits mur- 
der or something similar to murder, he is given a trial without him- 
self being present, and he is punished." I asked for instances, and 
I was given the instance of Lord Mayor MacCurtain. I was told by 
several Sinn Feiners — it may be folklore but I give it for what it 
is worth — I was told by responsible men that the policemen who 
killed or carried out the murder of Lord Mayor MacCurtain were 
numbered; that one was killed on his way into a chapel in Cork, and 
three more had been killed around Cork; and that another remained 
to be killed, and that his name was Swarizy, and that he had left 



150 

Cork to go to Lisburn; and a few weeks later policeman Swanzy 
was killed as he was going out of church in Lisburn. And in re- 
taliation the Orangemen of Lisburn set fire to the Catholic section 
and did damage to the extent of two or three hundred thousand 
dollars. That I give you as an instance of a police murder. 

Q. The Sinn Feiners declare that they had a trial and heard 
testimony and were satisfied that these police had committed the 
murder of Mayor MacCurtain, and that they had pronounced the 
death sentence against them? 

A. Exactly. I went to see a very splendid young man whom I 
would not wish to identify because it would be dangerous for him, 
but a man in a very responsible public position, and I asked him 
about the killing of police. I asked him, "Why did they kill Wilson 
in Wexford?" And he said, "That man was a proper ruffian," and 
he gave me a number of instances of things that this man had done 
which seemed criminal and brutal in his life. And I said, "Do you 
know any other instances of men like that who have been killed?" 
And he said, "Most of the men who have been killed have been 
guilty of murder." And I said, "Do you know of any other instances 
in your district?" And he said, "A young man works for me, and 
he said the other day when he came in, 'I have seen the policeman 
in town who killed my brother, and I am going to kill him.' " And 
his employer said: "You are a member of the Irish Volunteers, and 
you mean to say that you are going to take the law into your own 
hands? You know the proper course to pursue. If you have any 
charge to make against that policeman, you know where to send it 
and you know what action will be taken." He prevailed upon the 
young man to get out of the way of the police; and the police got 
wind of the fact that this particular policeman was identified, and 
he left town. By these instances you get a practical illustration of 
the fact that the men who have tried to break down the will of Sinn 
Fein, to break down the will of the Irish as expressed in two elec- 
tions, have not succeeded. And you inevitably get a clash between 
these men and the Sinn Feiners — the Irish Volunteers. 

BRITISH "LAW AND ORDER" IN IRELAND 

The English policy in this question is very important. The Eng- 
lish maintain that they are holding up law and order in Ireland. 
They maintain that all these instances that you have heard about in 
the last two days are instances to be explained by rational proc- 
esses, and that they stand for law and order. The results of my 



151 

investigation are this: the English maintain that they are standing 
for law and order, and that the Sinn Feiners are a band of extrem- 
ists; but at the same time they are pursuing a policy of provocation 
and assassinations and murders, and make no effort whatever to 
bring to book those members of their organization who commit 
murders and assassinations, and are making every effort to throw 
the onus of disorder and lawlessness on Sinn Fein; that Sinn Fein, 
on the other hand, wishes to have peace in Ireland, to have their 
own government perfected, but are constantly running into the law- 
lessness and oppression of the old police, the Black-and-Tans, and 
the military in Ireland. 

And I would like, if I may, in relation to this to show the sequel 
to the Balbriggan affair as brought out today. I made no investiga- 
tion in Balbriggan myself. I made an investigation in Galway and 
Dublin. But the sequel in Balbriggan is this: I wish to quote Sir 
Hamar Greenwood, the British Chief Secretary for Ireland, on the 
subject of Balbriggan and the inquiry into Balbriggan. There was 
an effort made to get the House of Commons at the end of October, 
two weeks ago — no, I guess about three weeks ago, — to appoint a 
commission to investigate and find out what actually happened at 
Balbriggan. And the House of Commons voted to refuse this move. 
They declined to appoint a commission to investigate. But the 
phrases that illumine the state of mind of Sir Hamar Greenwood 
are important. He said: "I admit that nineteen houses were de- 
stroyed and others damaged; that four public houses were destroyed, 
and one hosiery factory that employs two hundred hands was also 
destroyed. I admit it is difficult to defend the destruction of that 
factory." And he was asked if two men were not also killed. He 
said: "Two men were also killed." And Sir Arthur Balfour said: 
"Murder!" And he said: "If the right honorable gentleman gets 
any satisfaction out of it, I would say, murder." He admitted that 
the murder was not the act of irresponsible men, that it was organ- 
ized; that it was the work of men who went from a barrack seven 
miles away; and he said: "I have myself made an inquiry into this 
case, and I will tell the House what I have found: that some hun- 
dred to one hundred fifty men went to Balbriggan to avenge the 
murder of a comrade murdered in cold blood; and I find that it is 
impossible out of those one hundred fifty men to find out who did 
the deed, who did the burning ; and I have had the most careful pos- 
sible investigation made." In other words, the British Government 
is confronted with a situation not dissimilar to that which con- 



152 

fronted President Roosevelt at Brownsville. But where President 
Roosevelt took the regiment who were there and investigated and 
carried out the results of this investigation, the British Government 
says: We know the regiment that went there, and we know that they 
burned down nineteen houses and killed two men, and all this; hut 
we are not able to push it further. Therefore, nothing will be done 
about what was done at Balbriggan. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Who is Sir Hamar Greenwood? 

A. He is that member of the British Cabinet responsible for Ire- 
land. He is the Chief Secretary for Ireland. 

Q. And this was the speech he made in the House of Commons 
when a motion was made to have an investigation made of P>al- 



GOVERNMENT SUPPRESSES TRUTH ABOUT BURN- 
INGS OF CREAMERIES 

A. Exactly. And my object in bringing that up is this: that 
while nominally England stands for law and order in Ireland, they 
are really out to crush what they think is revolution ; and when they 
run into something that they think does not fit into the categories 
of democratic government and decency, they simply say that they 
are powerless, and decline to carry out an investigation, — such an 
investigation as would be carried out in any other civilized country 
where there was an established government. Thirty creameries have 
been burned down, and Sir Hamar Greenwood was confronted with 
the evidence of the burning down of these creameries; that uniformed 
men have gone out in lorries; that they have been seen; and they 
have burned down the creameries. And he is unable to act because 
he has seen no evidence: "I have never seen a tittle of evidence to 
prove that the armed forces of the Crown have destroyed creameries." 
Well. Sir Horace Plunkett and Mr. George Russell have tried to put 
evidence in his hands that the armed forces of the Crown have de- 
stroyed creameries. I think it would make it clear if I might read 
a letter written by Sir Horace Plunkett on the twenty-sixth of 
October: "Both Houses of Parliament and the public have been 
completely misled as to the destruction of creameries and other 
property of cooperative societies in Ireland, and in all seriousness 
I am compelled to charge the Government with suppression of the 
truth. During the past six months a correspondence upon this 
subject has been carried on between the Irish Agricultural Organ- 
ization Society and myself, as its President, on the one hand, and 
the civil government and the military authority in Ireland on the 



153 

other. On Wednesday last, in the reprisals debate in the Com- 
mons, Sir Hamar Greenwood selected out of this mass of letters a 
single extract from a letter of his own to me. In this extract he 
deplored and condemned 'these outrages,' promised to try and 
prevent them, and to punish those responsible. He adverted to 
'the outstanding difficulty . . . that the sufferers have been 
unable or unwilling to come forward with evidence,' and invited me 
to provide it. He then told the House that he had 'never seen a 
tittle of evidence to prove that the servants of the Crown had de- 
stroyed these creameries.' This morning I was told by a distin- 
guished member of the House of Lords that Lord Curzon had on 
the same day made an identical statement — of course, from the 
material supplied to him. He quoted the same extract from the 
official correspondence, and then gave it as 'a curious corroboration' 
of the innocence of the servants of the Crown that I had failed to 
supply 'evidence of any sort.' 

"Space forbids the production in your columns of the evidence 
in the possession of the Government, partly from the records of their 
own courts, partly furnished by us. It will suffice here to say that 
the unfortunate victims of these outrages have only one means of 
proving their loss. They have to bring suit under the Malicious 
Injuries Acts before the County Court Judge at Quarter Sessions. 
If the judge is satisfied that the injury is malicious, even if it is 
proved beyond all possibility of doubt, as it was in a trial which I 
personally attended, that servants of the Crown destroyed the prop- 
erty, he has to charge the amount of compensation awarded (in 
this case £12,349) on the rates. In other words, the victims of the 
outrages, and other innocent persons, have to pay for damage in- 
flicted upon the community by the guardians of the law. 

"'Everybody in Ireland knows, and the Government knows, that 
these acts are deliberate reprisals by servants of the Crown. Unless 
discipline has hopelessly broken down, the Government could 
easily identify the criminals. It is scandalous that for lack of this 
identification such a crying injustice should go unredressed. We 
have asked for an open and impartial inquiry in Dublin, where 
witnesses can be protected. To say that this would be a mere con- 
flict of perjury is untrue as regards the evidence we are ready to 
produce, and is not complimentary to the peace officers of the Gov- 
ernment. Redress in this case is urgently demanded far more on 
account of the position and influence of the agricultural cooperative 
movement in Ireland than for the direct and indirect restriction in 
food production, which is no light matter. As I write, a telegram 
reaches me reporting the burning of yet another creamery." 



154 

The Witness: I would like to leave this letter to show the situation 
they are in in Ireland. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Just give us that citation, please. 

A. Sir Horace Plunkett, writing to the London Times, printed 
on the twenty-sixth of October of this year. There is an editorial 
on the same subject in this issue of The Irish Homestead, which 
reprints the letter, by George W. Russell. 

PERVERSION OF BRITISH JUSTICE 

There is evidence that there is justice going on in Ireland from 
the Irish side. Sir Hamar Greenwood himself said that courts are 
going on in Ireland conducted by the Irish people. Not so much 
can be said for the Government courts in Ireland, even where they 
have not been superseded by courts martial. In the north of Ire- 
land, a man found with a revolver is fined two-and-six-pence or 
three shillings. But in the south of Ireland I have found no case 
where a man found with arms is given less than two years' im- 
prisonment. 1 

ELECTIONS PROVE LARGE MAJORITY SUPPORTS 
SINN FEIN GOVERNMENT 

Worse than the assertion that the courts-martial have the full 
confidence of the Irish people are the constant assertions that the 
British Government is working in Ireland in the interests of the 
whole people. I would like to give you the analysis of the vote 
in 1918 and in 1920 to bring out the point whether the de facto 
government of Sinn Fein has the confidence of the people or has 
not. I think this material is absolutely trustworthy and very closely 
analyzed. It shows that the Sinn Fein party secured nearly 75 per 
cent, of the seats on the county councils at the last election. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What election is this? 

A. June, 1920. The total number of county council seats in 
Ireland is given as 699. Of those county council seats, Sinn Fein 
secured 71.9 per cent.; Sinn Fein and Labor, who work together, 
secured between them 80 per cent. Putting in with them the Ulster 
Nationalists, who can be put in as believing in self-government for 
Ireland, the number of seats won is 84 per cent. 2 Of course that 



1 The death penalty may now be imposed for possession of arms or 
ammunition. 

2 Of the 699 seats, 612 were won by candidates opposed to union with 
England, and 87 seats were won by Unionists. 



155 

is not unanimity. I personally found no unanimity in Ireland on 
the subject of Sinn Fein. But what I did find was this: that all 
the class of Unionists in the south of Ireland that were descended 
from the landlord class, and who, until the question of landlordism 
had been settled in favor of peasant proprietorship, had been all 
dead against independence, I found that these men were now all 
in favor of home rule. In the Irish Times for September, a con- 
servative paper, I found at least two hundred letters from very 
conservative gentlemen saying that independence was the only way 
out. If you desire, I can get a collection of those letters, because 
it seems to me that they are real evidence of opinion in the south 
of Ireland. Those gentry constitute the magistrates and the upper 
class, so to speak. The great majority of these people have resigned 
from their offices, men like Sir Henry Grattan Bellew, Sir Algernon 
Coote, Sir Thomas Stafford, and other men, a list of whom I can 
give you. These men are all deputy lieutenants. These men all 
resigned while I was in Ireland. And when I was in Dublin, there 
was a conference of six hundred men and women of this particular 
class of Unionist persuasion who came together to plead for do- 
minion home rule. Lord Shaftesbury, a prominent Ulsterman, also 
pleads for dominion home rule. 

Q. And until recently these men were all against it? 

A. While these men were all landlords, their interests were all 
against home rule. But now, since they have settled down in Ire- 
land, their interests are with the people. Many of them have said 
to me they had just as soon have Sinn Fein government as not. 
Many of them go to the Sinn Fein courts. A big merchant in Cork, 
called J. C. Dowdall, who had just come back from a delegation 
that had gone to Lloyd George — 

Q. What nationality? 

A. A Cork Protestant Irishman. He told me that a relative of 
his had for months tried to get a land settlement from the British 
Government and had failed; and in a few weeks he got the whole 
question settled by the Sinn Fein courts. Many of them have gone 
to the Sinn Fein courts to get them justice, and in many cases the 
courts have leaned backwards to give them justice. 

Here is a list of county councils and urban councils and other 
bodies that have declared their allegiance not to Britain, but to 
Dail Eireann. And I will put in here the analysis of the vote in 
1918, the object of which is to show that Sinn Fein is not a small 
body of extremists, but is 80 per cent, of the people of Ireland, 
who have so declared themselves in the election of 1918, and have 
reiterated that decision in the elections of 1920. 



156 

Q. What per cent, of the county councils have renounced alle- 
giance to the British Government and are now doing business with 
the Sinn Fein government? 

A. I think all the county councils outside Ulster. 

Q. How many is that? 

A. There are thirty-two altogether, 1 and outside of Ulster 1 
think that twenty-six have submitted themselves totally to the Sinn 
Fein government. 

Q. Of the total number of town councils and urban councils and 
county councils, and all the bodies chosen by the people to manage 
their affairs, how many now recognize British authority? 

A. I think that outside the six or four counties in the northwest 
of Ulster there are practically no public bodies in the south of 
Ireland that recognize the British Government. But there are mi- 
nority representatives who believe in the British Government on a 
great many of these bodies — men of property who still believe that 
the Sinn Fein policy is not desirable. 

I do not seem to have succeeded anywhere in giving evidence on 
military rule, and I would like very much to go ahead on whatever 
lines you would suggest. 

ALLEGED RELIGIOUS DIFFERENCES PRIMARILY 
ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You have been in the north of 
Ireland? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know anything about the industries there? In other 
words, in the north of Ireland there are great textile industries. 
Have you investigated anything among the workers there — what the 
standard of living is, under what conditions the women work, and 
are there any labor unions there, and what influence is brought to 
bear by the large employers upon these workers to keep them di- 
vided on religious prejudices and to keep them from organizing 
into industrial organizations? Do you know anything about any 
of these questions? 

A. I think I know something. Yes, I went in Belfast to one oi 
the factories, and had a long talk with the employer, and I have 



1 While there are 32 counties in Ireland, there are 33 county councils, 
Tipperary being divided into North and South constituencies. Of the nine 
counties in Ulster, only four (Antrim, Armagh, Derry, and Down) elected 
a majority of Unionist councillors. None of the 24 county councils outside 
of Ulster went Unionist. In fact, of the 510 seats on these councils, only 
three were won by Unionists. 



157 

studied to a certain extent government reports on the condition 
of industries in Belfast. I think it is generally admitted that the 
standard of wages in Belfast is especially low, because in house- 
holds the men usually work in the shipyards and in higher branches 
of the textile industry, and the women work in very low occupa- 
tions; and the Belfast employer looks upon the joint wage in appor- 
tioning wages. Up to a very few years ago, the women employed 
in Belfast seldom wore boots. There are very many bad factories. 
There are also some good factories. But the trade-union situation 
is very complicated, because the lower wages are usually paid to 
the Catholic workers, and when the Catholic worker becomes a 
foreman, any non-Catholic worker who wishes to raise the religious 
issue can raise it and make it impossible for the Catholic workman 
to be regarded as a union man. And that has been constantly done 
with British unions. A very serious situation was created in July 
when the Protestant workers drove out a number of Catholic work- 
ers up to five thousand, and not only drove them out, but burned 
their homes; and in a very short time fifty-six people were killed 
on the streets of Belfast. 

Q. How long ago was that? 

A. That was in July and August of this year. I think my wife 
will tell you more on the labor aspect. There is no doubt that the 
religious issue has been kept alive by the employers to keep trade 
unionism from growing in Belfast. It has been a red herring across 
the trail of the labor situation, and constantly labor organizers like 
James Connolly, who worked in Belfast, have been up against this 
situation. It is kept alive continually by the newspapers and the 
sermons. I think there are more political sermons in Belfast than 
anywhere else in the world. Practically all the sermons in Belfast 
are political sermons. And that is a very bad situation for the 
workers. 

Q. Belfast is not very well organized,? 

A. Belfast is not very well organized. The Transport Workers 
are the strongest union in Ireland. 

Q. Are they in Belfast? 

A. I do not think they are in Belfast. I am not well informed 
on that point. But wages in Belfast are very low in comparison 
to similar wages in England. 

Q. And what are housing conditions among the workers? 

A. The housing conditions are good because ground rents are 
very, very low, and they have built a vast number of one-story 
houses. There is no congestion. It is a new city which has been 
built up in small houses, so that there is no slum problem a> there 



158 

is in Dublin, where twenty thousand families live in single rooms — 
one-third of the population of Dublin live in twenty thousand 
rooms! Sometimes families of ten or twelve people live in one 
room. 

Q. And what is the standard of living in Belfast? 

A. The standard of living is fairly low, considering the good 
housing. I think it is a squalid city. It is like some of the Cana- 
dian towns, I would say; it is in a state of early capitalism. 

Q. What is the general morale of the place? 

A. The Belfast Chamber of Commerce is one of the most reac- 
tionary bodies whose pronouncements I have ever read. The Dub- 
lin Chamber of Commerce is very much better. Although in regard 
to labor, I must say that the Dublin Chamber of Commerce showed 
up very badly when I was home. In relation to that may I say this: 
although there is a very bad situation in regard to the social struggle 
in Ireland, still Irish labor outside of Belfast is all for Sinn Fein. 

Q. In Belfast what is the situation? 

A. In Belfast labor is opposed. Of course you have to take 
Catholic labor and Protestant labor separately. In the British 
House of Commons there is a member, Mr. Joseph Devlin, elected 
by labor as a Labor representative. He, of course, has stood for 
Irish independence. There is a gradual tendency on the part of 
Labor to get together. The whole fight of Sir Edward Carson and 
his group is to keep the religious question elevated. 

When the question came up in regard to what part of Ulster is to 
be excluded from the Home Rule Bill, they did not put in the three 
counties of Ulster that had a majority of Catholics, or the four 
manufacturing counties where labor might get together, but rather 
the two agricultural counties where there might be enough farmers 
who had an interest against labor, to go into the Ulster Parliament. 

Q. After all, the religious differences in Ireland are primarily 
political and economic? • 

A. I think the religious differences in Ireland are clearly politi- 
cal and economic, and that the theological basis is practically nil. 

Commissioner Maurer: That is what I think. 

The Witness: I do not think that those who conduct the religious 
agitation in Belfast do know very much about the theology of Rome, 
or care very much. But they must have a difference, and if they 
did not have this difference, they would have a difference on 
whether people were brachycephalic or dolichocephalic. 

Q. What is the religious situation between the Protestants and 
Sinn Feiners? 

A. There is practically no difference. The two have merged 



159 

when the question was taken out of the control of special interests. 
Some of the most prominent men in the Sinn Fein movement are 
Protestants. There is Lieutenant-Commander Erskine Childers. 
Robert Barton, who is also a Protestant, is a member of the Sinn 
Fein cabinet. I stayed in Dublin with a prominent Protestant who 
is also a Sinn Feiner. I met Dr. Kathleen Lynn, who is also a 
Protestant, who had been sentenced to death in connection with the 
1916 uprising; and I think several women who were with her were 
also Protestants. I met many Protestants who were prominent in 
Sinn Fein. There is no active religious feeling in the south of 
Ireland. In my section of the county the Catholics are 95 per cent., 
and they elected a man as chairman of the county council who was 
a Protestant. Among the Catholic bishops, among the hierarchy, 
there is a great difference of opinion upon politics, just the same 
difference of opinion you would find among any group of men 
anywhere. That is to say, I think Catholic traders would show as 
many people against any change in government and against Sinn 
Fein as would Protestants. That is to say, I think the attitude 
follows economic lines rather than religious. 

THE ATTITUDE OF IRISH LABOR 

One piece of evidence in regard to labor. There was a conven- 
tion of the Irish Labor Party in Cork about the first of August, 
and the conclusion of that convention was as follows: 

"We are fully aware of the gravity of the issues involved in this 
conflict. We are challenging not only the right of an imperial 
power to subjugate a small nation by armed force, but we are also 
challenging the generally accepted conception of the relations be- 
tween employer and employed. Railway companies, backed by the 
Government, contend that the workman's duty is simply to obey 
orders, to carry any materials that may be handed to him, irrespec- 
tive of the use to which these materials may be put — in other words, 
that the workman is part of a system, of a piece of machinery; he 
is not a responsible agent. The worker's contention, on the other 
hand, is that when he knows that he is being used for a purpose 
against which his soul revolts, he would be violating his conscience 
if he were to agree to be so used. This contention involves a claim 
that the workman is a responsible human being — not a cog in a 
machine; that he is a conscious cooperator in the work in which 
he is engaged, and has. a right to decide whether or not he will 
participate in the work according to whether its purpose is worthy 
or degrading. Such a conception of industrial relations is doubtless 



160 

revolutionary, but it is the conception which shall prevail in the 
Irish Commonwealth of the future." 

This had to do with the refusal of the Transport Workers to 
handle munitions, and with the refusal of the railway firemen and 
engineers to run trains that were carrying soldiers on military 
expeditions in Ireland. The Government, which now has control 
of the railroads, is now determining to close down railroad traffic 
in Ireland and to prohibit motor traffic more than twenty miles from 
the home of the owner of the motor. This, of course, applies only 
to civilians. The situation that is being brought about in Ireland 
is that of a blockade. That situation labor has tried to keep off. 
Labor also called a two days' general strike on account of the 
hunger strikers in Mount] oy prison. They were successful in that 
strike in showing where labor's sympathies were. The Government 
would like decidedly to close down the railroads on account of the 
munitions situation. It is probable that Ireland will be deprived 
of railroads within the next two weeks. It has already been de- 
prived of freedom of the press. 

IRISH ENDURANCE PITTED AGAINST ENGLISH 
TERRORISM 

The situation is rapidly corning to a climax between this great 
nation and this small people: the efforts of England to keep up the 
illusion that it is standing for law and order in Ireland while it is 
working to break down the morale of the people of Ireland by the 
destruction of homes, the burning of factories and creameries, the 
cutting off of railroads, and the killing of prisoners, before the 
world gets to learn the truth about these conditions and thus be 
delivered from the illusion that law and order is being maintained. 
So you have a race between the patience' and endurance of the peo- 
ple of Ireland and the government of Lloyd George and Sir Hamar 
Greenwood — -a government which denies responsibility for the acts 
of its agents, so that you have men executed in the way that Lynch 
was executed, and men who are brought out of their homes and 
shot without trial or warrant. Of course, one of the strong cards 
that England has is the killing of police. Sinn Fein says, on the 
other hand: While we have killed police, we have been compelled 
to do so in order to keep the struggle of Sinn Fein going. And 
even though many of our young volunteers are arrested and taken 
to barracks and killed, and then announced as killed while trying 
to escape; even though our people are terrorized and our homes 
destroyed; and even though sixty-five out of the seventy-three mem- 



161 

bers of the Sinn Fein parliament have served prison sentences, yet 
there is no chance of the morale of the Irish people being broken 
down. 

Q. Where were these members of Parliament imprisoned? 

A. I will give yon the list, showing the prison and the time 
served by these men. 1 

REPRISALS OFTEN WITHOUT JUSTIFICATION 

1 wish to make two things clear from my own investigations. In 
many cases there are no reasons whatever for reprisals. In other 
cases, there are mistakes made, like the burning of that English 
factory in Balbriggan. I was in Galway a week after that young 
Black-and-Tan brought his revolver out and began shooting wildly 
at the people on the station platform, and I want to suggest to 
Mr. MacDonald that if Father Griffin of Galway be asked to testiiv 
here, he has all the facts in that case as has no other man. Father 
Griffin was kidnapped bv Black-and-Tans last week, and nothing 

1 The witness submitted in evidence the official Irish Bulletin, Vol. 2, 
No. 72 (13 August, 1920) : "In the general election of December, 1918, 
68 of the Parliamentary candidates of the Republican Party in Ireland 
were elected, several of them for two constituencies. Some of the recent 
experiences of these publicly elected representatives are given in the fol- 
lowing pages. They are probably without a parallel in Europe. 

Twelve of these representatives have been sentenced to death. 

Twenty-one of these representatives have been sentenced to penal servi 
tude for life, or for terms of twenty, ten, five or three years. 

Thirty-seven of these representatives have been arrested without charge 
and imprisoned or deported without trial, the majority of them being kepi 
in prison for ten months and then released withotit explanation or apology. 

Sixty-five of these representatives have been imprisoned in English or 
Irish prisons, either without charge or trial or for political offenses. Many 
have been imprisoned more than twice, some have been imprisoned five 
times. Efforts were made to arrest one of the three who were not im- 
prisoned. 

Only tzvo of the sixty-eight representatives were not at some time either 
arrested or "wanted by the police." 

Eighteen are now hiding from arrest in Ireland, America. France, and 
Italy. 

This persecution of Irish Members of Parliament has continued without 
cessation since May, 1916. A constant passing in and out of English 
prisons has been the common experience of representative Irishmen for the 
past four years. It continues to the present moment to be their experience. 
On August 12th — the day prior to the issue of this Bulletin— Mr. T. Mac- 
Swiney, Member for Mid. Cork, was arrested by British troops while 
presiding over a Republican Court. 

Since this document was published, additional punishments have been 
inflicted upon Irish Members of Parliament. 



162 

has been heard from him since. 1 That young Black-and-Tan who 
was killed on the station platform was drunk, it is said. He was a 
chauffeur, and he had been two weeks in Ireland, and had been 
fed up with the notion that the Irish were particularly violent. As 
a matter of fact, there is a great deal of quietness in Ireland, except 
where the police and military are patrolling. He was on the plat- 
form when the papers were brought in. There was a great rush 
for the papers for two reasons: they wanted to see about the con- 
dition of Lord Mayor MacSwiney; and, in addition, there was a 
race, and the people wanted to see the results of the race. For 
some reason, whether this young man was drunk or not, he got 
excited and began firing. And then the old Irish Constabulary took 
it into their heads that they would show the people their hand, 
and began their reprisals. The old man Quirk whom they killed 
was organizer for the Boy Scouts, and known to have the respect of 
the citizens. There the provocation was exceedingly indirect. It 
must be understood that the Black-and-Tan who was killed at the 
railroad station had already killed a man. Nobody knew who he 
was. He was carried to a house by Volunteers of Sinn Fein. Then 
it was found out that this man, who had a British revolver, was 
one of the armed forces of the Crown. It was the sort of thing that 
might happen anywhere, and would not be the occasion for an 
outbreak were it not for the political background. There are every- 
where in Ireland desperate evidences of the efforts of Ireland to 
realize its own will without violence. 

Q. Senator Walsh : What do you know about Father Griffin being 
kidnapped? 

A. I only know what the New York Times said last week. 

Q. Was he invited, Mr. MacDonald, to come here? 

Mr. MacDonald: No, he was not. 

The Witness: Father Griffin told me the facts about what hap- 
pened at Galway. I went to see Dr. Thomas Dilfon, professor of 
mining at the University. I had to go to eight places to find him. 
He was on the run because he was afraid of assassination by a 
policeman who knew he was a Sinn Feiner. He had been arrested 
and spent ten months in an English prison for a German plot. I 
asked him about the German plot, and he said he knew nothing 
about it. He had never seen a German plot in his life, but it was a 
sufficiently good pretext to send him to prison. He sent me to 
Father Griffin, and he told me that the official report of what had 



1 Father Griffin was murdered before the Commission could secure his 
attendance. 



163 

happened at the station passed through his hands. I think Father 
Griffin must have been prominent in the organization of Sinn Fein. 
What the Government has tried to do by hook or crook is to get 
rid of the higher in command in Sinn Fein. The Government has 
a list of the prominent Sinn Feiners, and has the instrument in the 
Black-and-Tans to carry its plan out. 

BLACK-AND-TANS RECRUITED FROM EX-SOL- 
DIERS, ADVENTURERS AND CRIMINALS 

Who are the Black-and-Tans? I went to one gentleman in Ire- 
land, whose name I will give to the Commission, but I will not 
give it publicly. 

Q. This is an English officer? 

A. An English officer. He told me that they are recruited in 
England in many cases from ex-army men. They are often adven- 
turers. "An English detective," he said, "came over here to see 
me this morning. T am over here to find a convict, and I went to 
the depot of the Black-and-Tans to find him,' the detective told me. 
T did not find him there, much to my surprise, but I found a num- 
ber of other convicts whom I knew very well.' " I think a large 
number of the Black-and-Tans are desperate men who will do 
anything. Major Erskine Childers, who won the D. S. 0. for 
bravery during the war, has published a pamphlet, which was given 
to you yesterday, showing the number of thefts that have come from 
Black-and-Tans. They are that class of men. The situation is 
working up to a crisis. All the time we are being told that Ireland 
cannot stand on her own feet economically, and is run by terror of 
a small band of extremists. 

IRELAND ECONOMICALLY SELF-SUPPORTING 

I think that when Ireland gets her freedom, she will work towards 
a workers' commonwealth. In any case it is perfectly clear that 
Ireland can stand on her own feet economically if she is given 
half a chance. She is a small nation, like Denmark in many 
respects. Its principal industry is agriculture. Between 1915 and 
1919 Ireland contributed over and above its own revenue for its 
own expenditures sixty-two million pounds to the British Empire. 
That is to pay for these tanks and aeroplanes and the one hundred 
thirty thousand soldiers who are running Ireland. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How is that collected? 

A. Through excises, customs, and inheritance and income taxes. 



164. 

Q. The army of occupation is paid for by the Irish? 

A. Not directly. The Irish contribute sixty-two million pounds 
to the Government, and that money is spent in part to maintain the 
army of occupation. 

Senator Walsh: That is the policy of all imperialistic govern- 
ments, to make the people pay the cost of keeping them down. 

The Witness: Miss Addams made the point this morning that if 
any locality has a disturbance, the inhabitants have to pay for all 
the damage done. And if there is a strike, the people have to pay 
for all the damage done during the strike. If the ordinary bourgeois 
gentleman sees a strike coming along, he does not want a strike 
because he will have to pay for part of the results. The Irish 
people, besides contributing to maintain this army of occupation, 
have to pay for all the damage this army inflicts upon them. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: How does the Sinn Fein government 
net its money? 

A. Partly by the issue of bonds. Of course, it was illegal to 
advertise those bonds. Many of them were sold in America. Even 
when they got the money it was not always safe, for many of the 
banks where these Sinn Fein funds are deposited have been raided. 
The Sinn Feiners try to get the Irish to pay an income tax to the 
Irish rather than to the British authorities. The British cannot col- 
lect the tax by selling the property on which the tax is levied be- 
cause nobody will go to the auction to bid on it. And the property 
cannot be picked up and taken away. The English government 
cannot get more than ten per cent, of the amount of its taxes. The 
Sinn Fein government asks the property owner to pay to it fifty per 
cent, of the English tax, and promises to protect him in case the 
English seize his property and distrain it for non-payment of taxes 
to them. From the fifty per cent, which it does get, it is able to 
compensate for property which is distrained. I do not know how 
well this plan will work in the long run. 

MILITARY RULE EXISTS TO SUPPRESS IRISH 
SELF-GOVERNMENT 

Now, as to reprisals. You can see that the established military 
order exists to suppress by any means the efforts of these people to 
assert themselves and establish their own government. I have to 
give you an interview given out by Sir Nevil Macready, the military 
head in Ireland, who defends the killing at Balbriggan of two 
young men. He says that it is only ordinary human nature that 
the police should act on their own initiative when somebody has 



165 

been killed unfairly. As a result of these killings, he says, it is 
necessary to augment the forces of law and order from England. 
This is an interview given to the Associated Press, which is a com- 
plete defense of the military policy of reprisals in Ireland. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Do you suppose that if the Irish 
people had been able to build up their own government without 
the killings of police, that reprisals would have occurred? 

A. It is very difficult to say, because the British started out so 
roughly in handling the Irish situation. They arrested people 
merely on the suspicion that they wanted independence, and were 
quite brutal. They started on a policy of intimidation, and it 
hardly seemed possible for the Irish Volunteers to function unless 
the police were driven out of the country districts into the towns. 
In order to do this they had to use force. However, there were 
very few police killed in getting the evacuation of six hundred 
barracks, — perhaps twenty. The police did not put up a fight 
there. But when they got into the towns, with sixty or seventy in 
one house and all the instruments of modern war to support them, 
then they could defy the population. 

DRUNKEN POLICE 

Lots of liquor had been shipped in for the police. I myself have 
seen drunken police. I have seen unshaven police on Sunday 
afternoon. Those police do get into an excited frame of mind very 
easily. They apparently have the power to commit any outrage 
with impunity. How the Irish have been able to keep up passive 
resistance for so long as they have, I do not know. Then there had 
to be some policy taken in regard to assassinations, because those 
assassinations began, as I have said, with the police. I think that 
explains why some police have been killed. 

Q. Senator Walsh: To what extent have you seen drunken 
police? 

A. I have only seen one instance. I have seen many sodden 
men, dirty in uniform, in Limerick. 

SINN FEIN AGREES TO PROTECT UNARMED 
DUBLIN POLICE 

But I have to contribute one fact about the police to meet Miss 
Addams' point. In Dublin there were five or six members of the 
Dublin Metropolitan Police killed. The Metropolitan Police are 
under Dublin Castle, but are not part of the R. I. C. There was 



166 

some sort of agreement between the Sinn Feiners and the Dublin 
Metropolitan Police that if they would go around unarmed, no 
policeman would be killed. Before that five or six had been killed. 
Since then they have gone around unarmed and none have been 
killed. Of course, the English do not tell you that this arrangement 
was made. 

Q. You think the Sinn Feiners would agree to do that with all 
the police? 

A. Yes, I think the Sinn Feiners would agree to that tomorrow. 

Q. But that would prevent the British from stamping out the 
aspirations of the Irish for a republic. 

A. Exactly. The crime that George Washington committed and 
got away with, the crime of the Czecho-Slovaks and the other people 
who were seeking independence, is the crime of the Irish today. 

BRITISH AUTHORITY IN IRELAND MAINTAINED 

BY FORCE 

Q. Mr. Wood: Can you give us some idea of the relation be- 
tween the Black-and-Tans and the R. I. C? 

A. The Auxiliary Police start as sergeants. They are taken in 
at a pound a day, and twenty-five shillings a day in disturbed areas. 
I do not know this of my own knowledge, but that is my information. 
They are brought over from England as sergeants and put over the 
R. I. C. That has made for bad blood in many cases. The old 
local senior military police resent this, because these English who 
are brought over are getting more pay and are put over them. As 
sergeants they are getting much better pay than the regular Irish 
Constabulary. 

I have seen these Auxiliary Police very often in Ireland coming 
back from a raid very early in the morning covered with dust. I 
myself have seen a military motor lorry approaching at a high rate 
of speed along the roads, and you know that you will be killed if 
you do not get out of the way. And there have been several people 
killed by these motor lorries along the roads. 

Q. Senator Walsh: As a matter of fact, if the English authori- 
ties had not imported the Black-and-Tans and the British soldiers 
into Ireland, there would practically be in Ireland today no English 
government except the officials in Dublin Castle? That is, all the 
English magistrates and all the Irish Constabulary were rapidly 
coming over to the Sinn Fein movement and the Republican form 
of government, so that there would be no Irishmen in Ireland under 






167 

English pay who would be out of sympathy with the movement for 
a Republic? 

A. No, I think there would be a small number who would like 
some English connection, but they would not be a very large num- 
ber, perhaps five per cent. 

Q. But you said the magistrates and the police were resigning 
in large numbers, so that a situation was rapidly approaching where 
there would be no authority except the English left in Dublin Castle. 

A. Yes, I think that is true. But the police are in this situation : 
there are many of them who expect to be pensioned off after twenty 
years of service, — men along about forty, forty-five, or fifty years 
of age. When they approach the pension age they are not very 
apt to quit the job. But it is undoubtedly true that if the English 
troops were withdrawn tomorrow, British authority in Ireland 
would be largely limited to Dublin Castle and the forty-six or forty- 
eight or fifty departments — whatever it is — that are paid there. 
They would stay there as long as their pay lasted; but elsewhere 
the new government, which has come up under the old government 
like a shell, would function openly. Like in County Connaught, 
there are a number of instances where the police have sent men to 
the Republican courts to get justice. 

CONSTRUCTIVE ACHIEVEMENTS OF REPUBLICAN 
GOVERNMENT 

Q. Chairman Howe: Tell us something more about the rle facto 
government, Mr. Hackett. 

A. The de facto government has a land bank run by Lionel 
Smith-Gordon in Dublin. They are trying to provide land for 
landless men, and at the same time increase the country's economic 
wealth by keeping the young men in Ireland. The population of 
Ireland has sunk from eight million to four million in the last 
eighty years. No population in Europe has sunk in this same way. 
The Sinn Feiners are trying to find means to carry out the program 
which they formulated in 1098. They have worked out justice as 
well as they can. In most cases it is not criminal justice, — just 
civil justice. They have established these civil courts. They have 
inaugurated a commission of inquiry into the conditions and sources 
of industry in Ireland. Of course it is an illegal body. It is 
pursued by the military authorities. They produced a document on 
milk production. It is an excellent document. They are endeavor- 
ing to get the farmers of Ireland to introduce a very revolutionary 
thing — milk testing, so that the farmers will not have to rely upon 



168 

folk lore, but rather by scientific testing they will be able to say 
that that cow is a good cow or a bad cow. This report, which I 
will leave with you, shows what the Sinn Fein government is trying 
to do. They have also established a steamboat line from New York 
to Ireland. 

Q. This lands directly in Ireland? 

A. Yes, at Dublin, I believe. 

Q. But direct trading connections are possible now with the out- 
side world? 

A. Yes. But like the coroners' inquests, it may be cut off. 
They cannot land in Queenstown any more. If Dublin gets to be 
a prosperous port, I have no doubt but that it will be cut off. 

Q. Now, about the de facto government. Mr. Morgan said yes- 
terday that the people of Ireland had a certain amount of self- 
determination by act of Parliament; that they proceeded to use this, 
and that the Republicans generally succeeded in capturing the local 
governing agencies, like he described in Thurles. How generally 
has the old imperialistic government been succeeded by a stable 
local government? 

A. I think you would find it is not proceeding in any logical 
way. Take, for instance, this machinery of local government. 
The Irish Local Government Act was enacted in 1900. That 
machinery is still employed by Sinn Fein, although it is British 
machinery. Where those local bodies which Sinn Fein controls 
refuse to do •things which the English want them to do, then the 
British immediately, if they can, cut off their resources. A situation 
has been created at Dublin, for example, where part of the money 
for supporting the tuberculosis hospitals was contributed by the 
Government to the Dublin municipality. When Dublin declared 
itself for Dail Eireann, the British Government cut off this money. 

Q. Then the local government cannot function? 

A. That is it. Sir Hamar Greenwood, in a speech he made last 
August, said: "If they will not run the railways, we may not be 
able to compel them to do so. But the stoppage of the railroads 
in Ireland, owing to the refusal of certain railwaymen to carry 
soldiers and munitions, would mean the cessation of the old age- 
pensions paid to the males and the stoppage of unemployment 
pensions." 

Q. Do you think that is an effective policy? 

A. I do indeed. The Government is hoping by this method 
to make satisfactory local government impossible, and to create a 
public opinion that will demand the operation of the railroads, 
even though the railroads carry troops and munitions. 



169 

Q. Senator Walsh: When you speak of the de facto government, 
you mean that there is a national government that has representa- 
tives all over Ireland, and that eighty per cent, of the population 
of Ireland have by vote given recognition to that government, and 
that from eighty to ninety per cent of the town and city and county 
councils recognize President De Valera and Dail Eireann as then- 
president and their national government? 

A. Exactly. 

Q. So that there is every single bit of legislative and executive 
that the people could establish to create a national government? 

A. Exactly. 

Q. But it is being constantly broken up and blocked and inter- 
fered with by the British authorities to break down the purpose and 
will of the people? 

A. Yes, indeed. You have heard, I suppose, of that thing called 
the Continental Congress. Well, if the British forces had got to 
Philadelphia, where the Continental Congress was, they would have 
been compelled to meet underground. I think that the Dail Eireann 
government presents much the same aspect of government in some 
places as one sees in some of the countries of Europe, like Hungary, 
especially on the military side, where death is the penalty if you 
are found connected with the new organization. But it has got the 
sympathy of the Irish people. They are absolutely with it. They 
want it. And the actual strength of the people will support it to 
the end. 

Q. Suppose the Black-and-Tans and the military were removed 
from Ireland; what would happen? 

A. The new government would come up from the cellar. It 
would come up. It would be to England's best interests to let it 
come up. For Ireland is the second best customer England has. 
Next to the United States. Ireland consumes more English goods 
than any other country. And it would be even a better customer 
if it had an opportunity to develop its own resources. Although 
Ireland's chief source of wealth is agricultural, there are only one 
hundred agricultural students in all of Ireland, as against thousands 
in a country like Denmark. 

Q. Only a hundred in all the universities and schools of Ireland? 

A. Yes, only a hundred students who are pursuing courses in 
scientific agriculture; real students in agriculture. 



170 

AIMS OF SINN FEIN 

I will leave with you a very precious document entitled "The 
Constitution of Sinn Fein, . Established in 1908," with a program 
which is now being put into effect. Its first aims were a just eco- 
nomic system, the establishment of a land bank, the early estab- 
lishment of the Irish mercantile marine, and the development of 
Ireland's natural resources. There is, for instance, a coal mine 
only nine miles from where I was born that has never had a railroad. 
Coal is still hauled by a cart. 

Q. Good coal? 

A. Anthracite coal, very hard, with a good deal of sulphur, but 
excellent for mercantile uses. 

ENGLISH ATTITUDE "A CURRENT OF CONFLICT- 
ING WINDS" 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Do you have a sense that this tension 
in Ireland is due to the fact that the military are themselves being 
forced; that they are in a very forced position? 

A. They are mixed, I think. I went with a brother of mine who 
is a doctor in a prison to the United Service Club, and some of the 
members of that club feel very bitter about the Irish. They have 
been educated with the idea that the Irish are inferior. They are a 
little like the common soldier I heard about in 1916. He was asked 
if the fighting was over in Dublin, and he said, "Yes, all but the 
natives in the hills, who have not yet come in." They have this 
feeling about the natives. But, of course, I found a good many 
soldiers who hate their jobs. They say that it is not their job — it 
is a police job. In some cases the military have prevented the police 
from killing, and in other places the police have prevented the mili- 
tary from killing. And, by the way, the only picture I saw that was 
destroyed in the Kerry Row that we heard about was the picture 
of King George. It was in the home of a man who had fought for 
the British Crown in Flanders. The police probably destroyed it 
because it was the most vivid picture in the Row, with bright color- 
ings that could not fail to attract some attention. The man was 
furious because, he said, "It cost me a pound, and now see what they 
have done to it." But when the police came down that street de- 
stroying everything, smashing in doors and throwing things out of 
the windows, and stabbing bedding with their bayonets, the military 
came and stood by; and some of the inhabitants came out and said, 
"Can you not stop them?" And they said, "No, we cannot prevent 



171 

them from destroying property, but we are here to prevent them 
from destroying life." So there is this current of conflicting winds. 
I need not tell you that if a hundred and thirty-five thousand soldiers 
on a war footing got loose to destroy things in Ireland, they would 
finish the job in a week. But there is this tug between conflicting 
winds. All of England is not out to massacre Ireland. If they were, 
they would have massacred them long ago. On the other hand, 
massacres do occur. 

Q. I mean between the people and those who are in the military 
and police service. 

A. It all depends upon the individual military officer. Some- 
times he is orderly and civil and will not allow any theft. In Gal- 
way, for instance, I was told by the Sinn Feiners that the head of the 
military was a very fine man, Hildegard his name was. But this 
good officer was ordered away and a man called Cruise came there, 
and he had a very different attitude. In Galway, for instance, there 
was one regiment stationed that had just come there and got it into 
their heads that they would like to shoot up the town. The other 
regiment had been there much longer, and had formed certain human 
associations in the town, and they by force kept the Devonshire 
regiment in the barracks and prevented them from destroying the 
town. And, of course, the Sinn Feiners are equally human. 

In Belfast there was a Catholic house occupied by a Catholic 
family in a street where a number of Protestant families lived. A 
number of men came in and said, "We are Ulster Volunteers. You 
had better get out of the house, for we are going to burn it." One 
of these Catholic women stayed to see what would happen, and the 
other rushed into the next house, where the people were also mem- 
bers of the Ulster Volunteers, and said, "Oh, for God's sake come 
over. We don't know what is going to happen. There are some 
men who say they are Ulster Volunteers, and they are going to 
burn down our house." A half dozen people rushed into the house 
and said to the men, "Who are you?" They said they were Ulster 
Volunteers, and the others said, "What credentials have you?" And 
they produced a paper. The man from the street said, "This will 
not do at all." And he asked them what happened, and these 
Volunteers said, "We gave them a wee beating." And my friend 
said, "And where are they now?" And they said, "They are in the 
hospital." 

And so you have this human situation. I talked to an English 
correspondent who was in a hospital in Limerick, and he said he 
waved to a motor lorry of soldiers when they went by, and he said, 
"I bet those men have not got a smile since they got into Ireland. 



172 

I have seen them in Flanders, and they are all right." This news- 
paper man was Mr. Hugh Martin. He was in Dublin the next week 
and saw a row in a bar. An officer who had been drinking too much 
was flourishing his revolver. The porter tried to shut the door, 
and the officer pushed his revolver in his face and prevented him. 
Martin sent a report of it to his paper. Two or three days later a 
batch of English journalists went to Tralee, and the police came 
up to them and said, "Which of you is Mr. Martin?" And Martin 
concealed his identity, and they said, "When we catch Mr. Martin, 
we are going to kill him." And Mr. Martin forgot the smile he 
gave the Tommy and left Ireland the next day. 

And this situation is going on unless some other country, perhaps 
the United States, can get it into Mr. Lloyd. George's conscience 
that people should not be crucified just because they want the right 
to govern themselves. 

SINN FEIN NOT LED BY HOT-HEADED 
EXTREMISTS 

Q. Senator Walsh: To what extent are the Sinn Feiners 
educated? 

A. Many of the leaders are highly educated men. There are 
men like the Protestant writer, Mr. Darrell Figgis; and Mr. George 
Russell, editor of the Irish Homestead, is very sympathetic with 
Sinn Fein — more sympathetic than any other man I have met out- 
side the Sinn Fein cabinet. Then there are any number of school 
teachers and professors. 

Q. So it is not an organization led by a few hot-headed en- 
thusiasts? 

A. On the contrary, I talked with the largest dealer in sheeting 
in Belfast, and he is a Sinn Feiner. The big merchants, a great 
many of them, in spite of their interests in business, are for Sinn 
Fein. Mr. O'Mara, head of the American Association for Recog- 
nition of the Irish Republic, whose father is a big merchant, is a 
Sinn Feiner. 

MAINTENANCE OF LAW AND ORDER BY REPUB- 
LICAN GOVERNMENT 

Q. I would like to have you briefly tell us what the program 
of the Sinn Fein organization is in so far as they endeavor to pre- 
vent assaults and murders and violation of law and order? 

A. That is the question which Miss Addams asked yesterday. 






173 

Q. Do they have a fixed policy? Do they send down orders to 
those under them to stop murders and assaults? 

A. I think that there isn't any doubt but that in many cases 
they have intervened to prevent violent acts by subordinates. 1 
heard of a man who had been guilty of theft, who had been intimi- 
dated in a horrible way into making a confession. They knew the 
man was guilty, and they fired a revolver off beside his head and 
frightened the life out of him until he confessed and the goods 
were restored. I told this to a Sinn Feiner in Dublin, and he was 
furious, and he said, "If you will tell me who they are, I shall see 
that they are punished, for they are guilty of a breach of trust." 
But, of course, when they have no jails there is no way of punishing 
many people. When they had General Lucas in prison, they finally 
let him go because it took too many officers to stay with him all 
the time. A Sinn Feiner told me, "We did not have the machinery 
to keep that man a prisoner. It was breaking up our organization. 
We had to give too much brains to him. He had to have the 
Times from London every day, and we got it for him somehow. 
But he was too much trouble." So they let him go. 

There is another instance of some men found guilty by the Sinn 
Fein organization and put on an island in the Shannon. The R. I. 
C. heard that they were there and went to rescue them; and when 
they came near the island, the prisoners took stones and fired at the 
R. I. C, because they were afraid of being arrested! I could give 
you cases of Sinn Fein police being given two years in prison be- 
cause of their police work in preserving order. What Mrs. King 
told you this morning about Templemore and the police work of 
the Sinn Fein Volunteers there was absolutely accurate. All the 
roads were broken by motor vehicles. All the vehicles were assessed 
several shillings for the repair of the roads. 

MORAL FORCE CHIEF SUPPORT OF REPUBLICAN 

COURTS 

I myself have gone to a Sinn Fein court, and I have been struck 
by the intelligence and good sense of these young tradesmen who 
were running the court. It was the most democratic court I have 
ever been in. And although there is no physical force behind the 
decrees, they are usually obeyed. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Moral force? 

A. Moral force. Of course, there is also some physical force. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



174 

Chairman Howe: This is the last of the hearings of the Commis- 
sion at this time. The next sessions will probably be heard the 
first week in December. One of the witnesses at that time will be 
Mrs. MacSwiney, who sails in a very short time from Ireland. 
There are a number of other witnesses who are either on the sea 
or planning to sail in a very short time. There may be one or two 
or three more sessions. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS SIGNE TOKSVIG 

The last witness is Miss Toksvig, of New York. I can say for 
her that she is a Dane, and has been in this country for at least 
eight years. Miss Toksvig. 
- Q. Your name and address, please. 

A. Signe Toksvig, of 229 East 48th Street, New York City. 

Q. How long have you been in America? 

A. I have been in America for fifteen years. 

Q. Are you an Irishman? 

A. I am a Dane, claiming some relationship and interest in 
Ireland through my husband. 

Q. Born in Denmark? 

A. Yes. I left there when fifteen. I went to Denmark this fall, 
and then went to Ireland. We spent most of the time in the south 
and east of Ireland. I finally insisted that we should go to Ulster, 
for although I am not an orthodox Protestant, I come from a family 
of that persuasion, and thought in fairness that we ought to visit 
Ulster and find out at first hand what conditions there were like. 
We went there on the seventh of September. 

EXPULSION OF CATHOLIC WORKERS 

You probably know that trouble started in Ulster on the twelfth 
of July, which is Orange Day. Trouble usually starts on that day 
in Belfast. On the excuse, as I could see it, that an Ulster man, 
District Police Inspector Smyth, had been killed in Cork, 1 and 
another R. I. C. man, who was also an Ulster man, had been shot, 
the Ulster shipworkers refused to work with their Catholic fellow 
laborers, and I think that about five thousand Catholic shipworkers 
in Ulster were compelled to leave because of the demands of the 
Protestant workers, who struck to compel their discharge. Many, 



1 See note, page 67. 



175 

if not most, of these had to leave Ulster because they had no other 
means of livelihood. There was a great deal of street fighting, as 
you know. In the poorer sections of the town, the Catholics and 
Protestants fought each other with stones and the like. 

A DELIBERATELY INSINCERE APOLOGIST 

The first man that we went to see was a Mr. Lind, the editor of 
the Whig, an extremely Protestant paper. Mr. Lind thought we 
were typical American journalists, and he gave us what we con- 
sidered to be the regular dope for American journalists. Much of 
it we knew at the time was not true. He filled us up with the usual 
stock stories, such as that Belfast had contributed more soldiers to 
the Irish army during the war than all the rest of Ireland put to- 
gether (that can be easily verified, or rather not verified, from the 
records), and that the rest of Ireland gave only two to Ulster's 
three. He also said that all the people in Belfast were orderly, 
law-abiding citizens; and when I remarked to him that fifty-six 
people had been killed in the month of August in Belfast, he said 
that when these Belfast people heard of their fellow townsmen 
killed in Cork, they could not be restrained. He said that the Sinn 
Feiners were all leagued with Germany and received guns from 
Germany. I asked him if it was not true that there had been a 
gun-running at Larne at the time of the Carson rebellion. He said 
there was not one gun got from Germany at that time, and if there 
was, it was for the defense of the Empire. Mr. Lind was very 
pleasant, but he was not truthful. He was the only man I met in 
Belfast, however, who was deliberately insincere. There were some 
others who were sincerely misinformed and misinforming. But he 
knew that what he said was not true. 

BELFAST IMPRESSIONS 

Then I met a Mr. Good, who wrote the best history of Ulster that 
has been written, but it was not reviewed in the Ulster papers. He 
called attention to the fact that it was not so very long ago that 
Ulster Catholics and Protestants were fighting side by side against 
England. Mr. Good was the son of the head constable of the Irish 
Constabulary. He is not a Sinn Feiner, but he is a very fair man, 
and I think we could believe what he told us. He said that in Bel- 
fast a very peculiar situation existed. Most of the constables were 
Catholics, owing to the fact that no Ulster constables are placed in 
their home county, but are sent down to the south of Ireland, and 



176 

vice versa. So that when the Ulster shipworkers attacked their 
Catholic fellow workers, the constables protected them. He him- 
self had often heard the shipworkers say that "When we get those 
constables alone we shall do for them." He also told us that very 
often the Catholics and Protestants helped each other in cases where 
they knew each other. He said that whenever attacks were made, 
they were not made by neighbors against neighbors, but by people 
coming from another part of the town — a Protestant gang would 
come over and fight someone in the Catholic quarter, or vice versa, 
but where they were mixed and knew each other, they were not so 
likely to do that. 

I talked with a man who was a trolley-car starter. We met him 
several times. He was as kind a man and as polite a man without 
being servile as I have met. He had very liberal views. He had 
been with the English army that had fought in Russia at Archangel. 
He said that those people ought to have the right to decide what 
kind of a government they wanted. He thought that Englishmen 
surely ought to realize that the Irish nation should have a right to 
say what it wanted to do. And so I said to him, "Don't you think 
it was rather rough to turn five or six thousand people out of their 
employment just on account of their religion?" And he looked at 
me and said, "Well, they were getting very cockey, and we had to 
put them in their place." 

Q. Senator Walsh: Were these five or six thousand who were 
discharged Catholics? 

A. Yes. Discharged is hardly the word. 

Q. The Protestant workers struck, and went back to work on a 
compromise that the Catholic workers would be kept out of em- 
ployment? 

A. Yes. 

Then he told us, as an example of the extreme cheek of the 
Catholics — he pointed to a street near where he stood and said: 
"A band of them came here one morning. They saw a laundry 
wagon full of clothes-baskets. They stormed the wagon and took 
the baskets and made a barricade across the street and got down 
behind that and began to fire. But, fortunately, we had a very 
brave inspector of police, and he came along and shot several of 
them, and they all fled." 

And then in Londonderry — 

Q. What is the Protestant population in Belfast? 

A. The Catholic is about 20 per cent, of the total population. 
Most of the others are Protestant. 

Q. And in Londonderry it is half and half? 






177 

A. It is about half and half, I think. 

We talked with the man who showed us around the walls in Lon- 
donderry. The most that we got out of him was that it was very 
bad for Catholics and Protestants to marry, because it would never 
work. And home rule would never work. He had no reasons to 
give us. He just had that idea rooted in his head. He was out of 
work, and was a bit dissatisfied. 

Q. Had the strike extended to Londonderry? 

A. No. I do not know why he was out of work. 

I talked to another man from the south of Ireland, and he began 
to talk to me very freely when he found that I was sympathetic. I 
do not know whether he was a Sinn Feiner, but he was Republican. 
In the south of Ireland, he said, you cannot even carry a camera 
without being arrested; but in Belfast you can have a Lewis gun in 
your house if you are of the right persuasion and you will not be 
touched. I said, "Whose houses have been destroyed in Belfast?"' 
He told me that in certain districts only certain houses were de- 
stroyed. I went to that district and found that most of the houses 
destroyed had Irish names on them — Murphy, O'Callaghan, and so 
forth — Irish Catholic names. They were mostly public houses. 
And I was told by a man who was there that the soldiers were there 
at the time of the raid, and that they held back the mob, and let a 
few of the mob through, and said, "Easy. easy, only a few at a 
time. There is enough for everybody." 

COBBLESTONES MENACE PEACE OF BELFAST 

The whole prospect for immediate peace there seemed very dis- 
couraging, especially in view of the large piles of stones in the 
poorer sections of Belfast, which they call Irish confetti or Irish 
butterflies. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What are those stones? 

A. We were told by Mr. Good, who knows Belfast very well, 
that these cobblestones were a great menace to the peace of the 
city. At one time the city council voted to have the streets of the 
city repaved, so that this menace might be done away with. But 
they voted to begin repaving in the Nationalist quarter; and the Na- 
tionalist members of the council, as few as they were in number, 
made such a row that the paving was never clone; and of course in 
the Orange section of the city they refused to have the paving begin 
there, because it would leave them without weapons. 



178 

RELIGIOUS PREJUDICES FOSTERED BY BELFAST 
MANUFACTURERS 

Also we met an Ulster man who was an Unionist, and also a rea- 
sonable human being. He was a large manufacturer, but of course 
I could not give his name except very privately to the Commission. 
He only talked to us because we came very highly recommended by 
Mr. Good, who is well known in Belfast. At first he was very reti- 
cent and confidential, but after awhile he said, "I know, and all the 
manufacturers in this city know, that the trouble is not a religious 
trouble except as it has been fostered by them to serve their political 
and their economic interests." 

Q. By "them" meaning whom? 

A. By the manufacturers in Belfast. He said, "1 warned them 
a long time ago that they were raising up a monster which they 
could not control and which some day might turn upon them, but 
they paid no attention. Both the press and the clergy — not all of 
them, but some of them — and the large manufacturers have worked 
together to keep up strife between the workmen in Belfast, using the 
religious issue simply as a means." 

Q. As a means to prevent what? 

A. To prevent agitation among laborers to improve their con- 
dition and wages, and home rule agitation secondly. It seems to 
me that that was a large admission for him to make. He might be 
willing to come over here and testify. He is a very courageous man. 

POINT OF VIEW OF SOME ULSTER PROTESTANTS 

Q. Did your other evidence confirm that? 

A. Yes, absolutely. The brother of this man, who is a junior 
partner in the firm, talked with us afterwards, and he gave us the 
same impression. He was terribly shocked by what he called the 
murders of policemen in the south of Ireland. Of course, his whole 
point of view was that England furnished all their law and order, 
and he repudiated the Sinn Fein government. He said, "You can 
hardly blame us. We went to school in England. All our connec- 
tions and acquaintances are there. Nevertheless, we are not against 
dominion home rule." They were against the Sinn Fein Republic. 
I do not know whether it would be possible to change them or not. 
My own personal feeling was, in talking with other people in 
Ulster, people in the stores and on the streets, that they were enough 
different from the people in the rest of Ireland to have the right to 
vote as to what would become of them. The man with whom I 



179 

talked said, "I know perfectly well that this country our forefathers 
got by robbing the Irish inhabitants several hundred years ago. 
But we have developed this country by our own labors, and is it 
right to drive us out of here without giving us a voice as to what is 
going to become of us?" He was a descendant of one of the fam- 
ilies that was planted in Ulster. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do they use the word "planted" in Ulster to 
denote those who were planted there by England many years ago? 

A. Yes, he knew that. He knew more history than the majority 
of the people in Ulster. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Just when was that? 

A. The planting was about two hundred years ago. Then we 
talked with the bookkeeper in that firm, who took us around and 
showed us the factory. I have seen excellent factories in the United 
States, and this factory was as good as any of them. It was an ex- 
ceptional case. I saw many young girls working who looked to me 
to be under fourteen, but he said that they were all over fourteen, 
and they probably would have said so themselves. They had a 
nine-hour day. There are some factories in Belfast, we heard from 
the bookkeeper, which were not up to that standard. Yet they had 
municipal inspection all the time, and had to measure up to a cer- 
tain norm. The bookkeeper also said that there were factories in 
the south of Ireland, usually laundries and places like that, which 
were far from sanitary and ought to be inspected. I said to him, 
"Is that in your opinion an argument against Ulster coming into an 
independent Ireland or an Irish dominion? Are you afraid that the 
south of Ireland will hinder you in Belfast from doing what you are 
doing?" He said, "No, that is all the more reason why we should 
go into an Irish parliament and settle it between ourselves and de- 
cide together what we are going to do." All the people in that fac- 
tory are Presbyterians — Protestants. Both the bookkeeper and the 
two brothers at the head of this factory I found to be as liberal and 
as good to their employees as any employers I have ever met. 

MURDER GLOSSED OVER 

I think this is all I have to say, except that we attended an in- 
quest in Belfast over two murders that occurred in August. The 
thing that impressed me most was a conversation I had with a police 
sergeant. He was an Ulsterman from County Cavan, I think. He 
was a reasonable man, and I said to him: "Don't you think it would 
be much better if you were a civil force, and did not have to carry 
these arms?" pointing to his arms. He said, "Yes, I think it would 



180 

be far better if we were only a civil force, and had no military duties 
to perform." I was also impressed by the evidence given by the 
district inspector of police at that inquest, and at the way his evi- 
dence was disregarded by the coroner and the coroner's jury. His 
evidence had to do with the case of a man shot from an armored 
car. There were two streets, connected by another street forming a 
letter H. where there was a riot. That cross-bar street, however, 
was perfectly quiet. It appeared to me from the evidence that it 
was perfectly clear that the man standing at his door in that cross 
street was a quiet, peaceful man. His widow was there. That man 
was a Protestant. He was also a Sinn Feiner as far as I know. It 
was evident that he had been shot. But the coroner and the jury 
were so anxious to gloss it over that the three young officer^, who 
appeared to be very excited, were acquitted by the jury. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: In the north they still have coroners 
juries? 

A. Yes, because in the north the people on the jury will in- 
variably give the verdict that the Crown wants, while in the south 
of Ireland it will always bring in the verdict that the Crown does 
not want. 

Q. Then there is a different rule for different sections of the 
country in regard to coroners* juries? 

A. Yes, exactly. 

THE UNCONTROLLABLE "MONSTER OF RELIGIOUS 

PREJUDICE" 

There is one more thing I want to tell you as an example of how 
the Ulster manufacturers have called into being a monster of re- 
ligious prejudice that they' can no longer control. The owner of a 
very large machine works, called the Sirocco works, I believe, had 
been affected by the very same conditions that the shipyards had to 
face. The Protestant workmen laid down their tools and refused 
to go back to work with Catholic employees. The owner wanted to 
start up again, but he could not because there w T ere certain drafts- 
men employed by him, very crucial men, men on whom the industry 
depended, who were Catholics. No one else could take their places, 
so he slipped them in and thought the other workmen would not 
notice it. But the workmen did notice it, and demanded that he dis- 
miss these men. And so he had to shut down his factory. He could 
not run without them. And of course it threw the Protestant work- 
men out of employment too. The bookkeeper to whom I have 



181 

referred told me about this case. "And so," he said, "that is the 
result of stirring up religious prejudices." 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is not the whole religious question in Ire- 
land one of the privileged classes, the financial interest classes, who 
control some of the press and clergy and keep these religious dif- 
ferences stirred up for intrenching their own privileges? 

A. That is true. But you must remember that they have suc- 
ceeded in doing that. They have dangled the religious bogey be- 
fore the people for so long that now a very real feeling exists. It 
started out like that. But the present generation is not going to 
forget about it soon, even though it was started artificial 1 v. 

Chairman Howe: We are very much obliged to you. 

Adjournment 5:45 P. M. 



• Commissioners 



SECOND HEARINGS ON CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Before the 

AMERICAN COMMISSION OF INQUIRY ON CONDI- 
TIONS IN IRELAND 

Session One 

Jane Addams 
James H. Maurer 
Oliver P. Newman 
George W. Norris 
Norman Thomas 
David I. Walsh 

L. HOLLINGSWORTH WOOD 

Frederic C. Howe 

Acting Chairman 

Before the Commission sitting in Odd Fellows' Hall, Washington, 
D. C, Wednesday, December 8, 1920. 

Session called to order by Chairman Howe at 10:23 a. m. 

Chairman Howe: The session will please come to order. Since 
the last meeting of the Commission the following persons have 
become members of the Commission, and will sit with us this 
morning : 

Senator George W. Norris, of Nebraska. 

Congressman-Elect C. L. Knight has been elected but is not here, 
although he has accepted membership. He is the Congressman- 
elect from Akron, Ohio. 

Major Oliver P. Newman, former District Commissioner of the 
District of Columbia. Major Newman is sick in bed today and 
cannot be with us. 

Mr. Norman Thomas, of New York, who is here this morning. 

The Commission has also asked Senator Thomas Walsh, of Mon- 
tana, and Ex-Senator James Martine, of New Jersey, to sit with the 
Commission today. They are present with us. 

The first witness this morning is Miss Mary MacSwiney. Miss 
MacSwiney is on the witness stand. 

Miss MacSwiney, you realize that this is not a regular legal hear- 

182 



183 

ing — not a legal procedure — and you are not subject to cross exami- 
nation, except that the members of the Commission want to examine 
you to get at the facts and find out about conditions in Ireland. We 
want you to tell your story in a way that is easy and natural to you, 
and we would like to have you tell it loud enough so that as many 
of the people here as possible can hear it. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS MARY MACSWINEY 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh (of counsel) : Your name is Miss Mary 
MacSwiney? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Where do you reside, Miss MacSwiney? 

A. In Cork, Cork city. 

Q. I believe you stated that there was something you wanted to 
say to the Commission. 

AN EXPRESSION OF APPRECIATION 

A. I felt that I wanted, before I started my evidence this morn- 
ing, to thank the Commission and the American people first, for 
the kindly reception we got, and to thank the Commission for its 
endeavor to help Ireland by getting at the truth. 

I think the best evidence that this Commission is impartial is the 
fact that when I left Ireland I got the impression from some Amer- 
icans that were there in the summer that this Commission was one 
especially arranged by friends of England to try to whitewash her 
in the papers, and to do it not only in England's interests but in the 
interests of an Anglo-American alliance. I find also that our 
enemies took it that you are a Sinn Fein sympathizing Commission. 
And since we thought you were pro-British, and they thought you 
were pro-Irish, you must therefore be impartial. 

I should also like to express my appreciation of the fact that the 
Commission has been trying to carry out one of the purposes for 
which America entered the war, and which I think we all agree was 
not quite effected by the war, and that is to. make the world safe for 
democracy. As far as my evidence is concerned, I should like to 
give whatever evidence I have to the Commission. 

MACSWINEY FAMILY IN COUNTY CORK SINCE 
FOURTEENTH CENTURY 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now, Miss MacSwiney, I wish you would 
begin at the point that you suggested to me that you thought would 



184 

be significant, and as far as you can, go ahead with your own story. 
I will ask you a few questions to begin with. You are the sister of 
the late Lord Mayor of Cork? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And the names of your parents? 

A. John Terence MacSwiney was my father's name. He was a 
native of County Cork, where my family have resided since the 
fourteenth century. And my mother was named Mary Wilkinson. 
She was born and brought up in England, but of her four grand- 
parents, three were Irish. 

Q. How many brothers and sisters have you? 

A. Originally a family of nine, five boys and four girls. 

Q. And how many are living now? 

A. Six since my brother Terence died. 

Q. Have the family always lived in Cork? 

A. My father went to England after the Fenian times, when 
things were very hard in Ireland, and took up a position there, and 
married my mother there, and I was born there. 

Q. In London? 

A. In London. We came back to Ireland when I was five. The 
family have lived there ever since. Some have gone away for short 
periods. I was in college in England and was teaching in England 
for a while. 

Q. What place was the late Lord Mayor in the family? 

A. He was the fourth. 

Q. He was the fourth in the family? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And how many brothers and sisters have you living? 

A. I have now two brothers and three sisters living. 

Q. And the brothers are whom? 

A. My eldest brother is Peter. He is an American citizen. He 
came to this country in 1908 and was naturalized here, and lived 
in New York. My youngest brother, John, was in Canada when the 
war broke out, and he got a very bad time there because he would 
not join the British army to fight the small nations. He was sen- 
tenced to two years' imprisonment, and might even have been sen- 
tenced to death; and he was about to be transported forcibly to 
fight in the British army, but some of his friends got a writ of 
habeas corpus, to prove that under Canadian law they were not 
entitled to send him across seas; and while that matter was under 
the jurisdiction of the courts, the armistice was signed. 

Q. Where do your sisters reside? 

A. Two of my sisters are nuns. One is in Asheville. North 



185 

Carolina. She has heen in America since 1910. Another sister is 
in Japan. My third and youngest sister is at home. 

Q. What has your life heen? 

A. A teacher. 

Q. How long have you heen a teacher? 

A. I have been a teacher since 1901. 

IRELAND'S FIGHT FOR FREEDOM CONTINUOUS 
SINCE ENGLISH CONQUEST 

Q. You suggested, Miss MacSwiney, that in order to give a 
proper background for other features, and what has transpired re- 
cently, you might briefly sketch the Republican movement, espe- 
cially as it has touched your family and your case, and as you 
had observation of it. 

A. Just the present Republican movement? 

Q. Well, the background you gave me. 

A. I suppose the background of most of the Irish families such 
as ours is the background of Ireland. I would like to emphasize 
that the present Republican movement is not a new thing. It is a 
continuous fight that has been going on for Irish freedom ever since 
the English conquered our country. In Henry VIII's time they held 
a very small portion of the country. He was the first to take the 
title of King of Ireland, but he was really king of only a couple 
of counties. By degrees the English spread over Ireland, and 
finally dominated the whole of it. But from the time that the) 
dominated the country, there never has been one generation when 
a fight for independence, an open fight, has not taken place. There 
has always been an open current of hostility to English government 
in Ireland, and the Irish people have never once in all the course 
of their history accepted the British government in Ireland. 

Q. Coming down through the Home Rule movement, with which 
1 believe you are familiar, is there a connection between this Home 
Rule movement and the struggles that have gone on all the time 
against English domination over your country? 

A. Distinctly, I should say. Suppose I begin with 1798. I will 
not take very long. In 1798 there was an outbreak. They call it 
the Irish Rebellion. I should like to emphasize for the American 
people that the definition of a rebellion is an uprising against law- 
fully constituted authority. Consequently there never has been a 
rebellion in Ireland. There was an insurrection. But you cannot 
have a rebellion unless vou are rising against lawfully constituted 



186 

authority. And England's authority in Ireland was never lawfully 
constituted — it was an usurpation maintained by the sword. 

IRISH PROTESTANTS LEAD STRUGGLES FOR 
FREEDOM 

Consequently, in 1798 there was an Irish insurrection, in which 
Wolfe Tone, Lord Edward Fitzgerald, and many other famous men, 
with whose names we are not familiar, tried to secure Ireland's free- 
dom. It was distinctly a Republican movement. Wolfe Tone de- 
clared for Irish independence, and it was an insurrection all the 
leaders of which were without exception Protestants. I should like 
to emphasize that, because some of your people have the idea that 
the Irish difficulty is a religious difficulty. There is no religious 
difficulty in Ireland of serious importance. It is entirely a move- 
ment for political freedom. I might say that many of the leaders 
in the Republican movement have been Protestants, not only Wolfe 
Tone and Lord Edward Fitzgerald, but men like the Emmets, Mac- 
Cracken, Thomas Davis, John Mitchel, and Parnell — for we do 
reverence Parnell, because he put up a good fight in his day. And 
many of the leaders of the present movement are Protestants. 

Well, that revolt was crushed, and then there was a period from 
1817 to 1847 when there were many petty wars in Ireland. 

Q. Senator Norris: Miss MacSwiney, may I interrupt you there? 
Were all the names of all those persons you named Protestants? 

A. Every one of them, Senator, and many more of them. Dur- 
ing that period, the first half of the nineteenth century, the Tithe 
Wars and the wars against an oppressive landlord system were 
constantly going on. They were what you might call little sectional 
wars. The Tithe War was national. It meant that the Irish Catholic 
population were protesting against having to support non-Catholic 
clergymen. As an instance, I can tell you of clergymen who got 
a salary of one thousand pounds a year. That would be, I suppose, 
about five thousand dollars; and they never entered Ireland from 
one year's end to another. They lived in England and spent their 
money in England. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That was paid out of the public taxation? 

A. Out of the public taxes, yes. 

Q. That was the struggle against what was called the Irish 
Church? 

A. Yes. And it finally ended in the disestablishment of the 
Church in 1869. But it was only by the Fenian uprising that they 



187 

later disestablished the Church. Meantime we had a Repeal Move- 
ment, which was a constitutional movement. 

ENFORCED STARVATION POLICY PRODUCES 
FAMINE 

Then we had the Republican movement of 1848, following the 
famine. That is what was technically known as a famine, but it 
was not a famine at all. It was a starvation policy enforced by 
England. 

Q. Mr. Mr. F. P. Walsh: During that time was there plenty of 
food in Ireland? 

A. Plenty. There was food — corn and meat — to the value of 
fifteen million pounds a week sent out of Ireland. And if Ireland 
really had a government of its own and there was a scarcity of 
food, the first thing that government would do would be to close 
the ports and prevent the shipping of food. But England put her 
armed soldiers at the ports to keep them open, and food to 
the value of fifteen million pounds a week went out of Ireland — 
that would be nearly $60,000,000 a week went out of Ireland- 
while over a million people died "of famine. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh : That was not a famine. That was a star- 
vation. 

A. Exactly, as starvation is going on in Ireland today. 

Q. Now to bring it down to date. 

A. The movement of 1848 was all a Republican movement. 
That was entirely a Republican movement. And surely one sees 
the extraordinary vitality of Ireland when a famine that destroyed 
one and one-quarter million people did not subjugate them. In a 
year after that they were in arms again. 

THE FENIAN MOVEMENT 

Again in 1867 the Fenian movement sprang up, and that move- 
ment was suppressed after a time. Many of the Fenians fled to 
America and lived here for many years; and about the last of them 
lives now in New York. I'm sure that many of those listening to 
me have heard of John Devoy as the last man connecting the present 
generation with the other. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How did the Fenian movement differ from 
the others? 

A. Not at all, or it differed only in that it was a secret move- 
ment. They had a secret oath. 



188 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did it have religious aspects? 

A. Yes. On the ground that it was a secret society with a secret 
oath, many of the bishops condemned it, and that frightened many 
of the people away. 

Q. How about having Protestants in the ranks? 

A. Oh, there were many Protestants in the ranks. 

Q. There never was any difference or division along religious 
lines? 

A. Never. Never. Insomuch as it was more a movement of the 
proletariat it was more Catholic than the '98 movement was, because 
the proletariat were always more Catholic. And for that reason 
it was more largely Catholic, even among the leaders, than the '98 
movement, because there was hardly a single Catholic leader in 
the '98 movement. 

Q. What various Irish national movements developed after- 
wards, if any, that could not be said to be strictly along constitu- 
tional lines, beginning with Sir Isaac Butt's constitutional move- 
ment? 

PARNELL'S GOAL ABSOLUTE INDEPENDENCE 

A. Sir Isaac Butt was a Protestant, but we would call him a 
very strong imperialist. He did believe in home rule for Ireland, 
and started a home rule movement, which was a very milk-and-water 
affair indeed. Then Parnell came along. Parnell was a Protestant, 
as Butt was, but Parnell took up the movement for freedom and 
liberty from the Irish point of view, while Butt took it up from the 
standpoint of convenience for the British Empire. I think Amer- 
icans understand that point of view. Butt did not want the Empire 
weakened. Parnell was different. He thought the Irish question 
was really and truly dominant, and that Ireland had a right to have 
a voice in its settlement. Parnell met the Fenian leaders, many of 
them, and asked their permission practically to try a constitutional 
movement in Westminster. In 1829 Daniel O'Connell had obtained 
the right to have Catholics represented in Parliament. And Parnell 
said it would be better to use this right and see what could be done 
in Westminster. 

Q. Was it generally known that Parnell, as far as his effort 
for complete liberty was concerned, did work in harmony with the 
Irish Republican brotherhood? 

A. Yes. He made a definite agreement with them to stand aside 
for a time and see how his scheme would work. And he gave them 
a definite promise that if after a certain period they felt that they 






189 

were obtaining no good by staying at Westminster, he would go 
back to Ireland and work there. That was a definite promise by 
Parnell to the Fenians. Before he started his movement at West- 
minster he made that promise. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Did the Irish people ever notice anything 
in the statements of Parnell publicly, or in the statements he made 
in the House of Commons, that would indicate that he was willing 
to place any positive inhibition on or suppress efforts at complete 
independence? 

A. No. The people were quite confident that Parnell meant 
absolute independence in the end, and that Home Rule was only a 
stepping stone. And Parnell himself said over and over again that 
no man could say that when Ireland got Home Rule, we would not 
want anything more. He was asked over and over again to give 
that promise, and he refused to give it. He said : "No man can put 
bounds to the onward march of a nation." These words of his are 
historic, and that was his answer to England asking him to give a 
guarantee that if Ireland got home rule, she would not want any- 
thing more. 

Q. Was there any change in the Parnell policy? 

A. No, Parnell never did change it. Parnell carried on that 
fight by means of obstruction. You can see that there was no chance 
to go on with obstruction forever. At that time there was no limit 
to the length of the speech a man could make in the House of 
Parliament. So Parnell said, "Very well, if you will not pass any 
Irish legislation, you will not pass any English legislation either." 
And then the whole eighty members of the Irish Party began to 
talk, and Parliament did not pass any English legislation. Then 
they brought in the Cloture Bill, by which the Speaker could stop 
debate on a bill at the end of the day's session. Parnell was a very 
much hated man. He adopted a policy that his followers could not 
join in English social life or join English social groups, in order 
to keep themselves absolutely uncontaminated by English influence 
— which was a very wise decision. Then they tried to put tempta- 
tion in Parnell's way, and Parnell fell. I only want to say one 
thing about that: after the judgment was given against Parnell, there 
was a meeting of the Irish party in Room Fifteen, and they dis- 
cussed in the meeting all night long as to whether they should ask 
Mr. Parnell to resign. They decided that they would not; that the 
man's private life was his own affair, and that he was doing the 
duty that he undertook to do for Ireland; and therefore they elected 
him leader. The plan was a disappointment to the Unionists, be- 
cause they thought the Irish leaders would be so terrified of what 



190 

people might say in Ireland that they would dismiss Parnell. Then 
Mr. Gladstone, who posed as a friend of Ireland — and I believe was 
good enough in his own way, but in regard to Ireland thought it 
was a matter of territorial dominion and sovereignty — Mr. Glad- 
stone put on a virtuous air and said he could not have any alliance 
with a man of Parnell's character. That frightened the Irish mem- 
bers very much, because they counted on the Liberal alliance. And 
Parnell said to them: "I do not care very much as far as I am con- 
cerned, but I warn you that if you allow yourself to take English 
dictation now, you ruin your work through all these years." But 
after an all night discussion and debate he was asked to resign. 
That caused what was known as the Parnell split. He said that 
if they had asked him to resign at the first meeting, he would have 
resigned at once; but he would not resign because of a charge 
given them by an English statesman. And, of course, he was right. 

JOHN REDMOND'S DUAL VOICE 

Eventually Mr. Redmond became head of the Irish party. Mr. 
Redmond as a young man was, according to his words and public 
expressions, as ardent an Irishman as my brother. But he did not 
keep up Parnell's policy of remaining uncontaminated by English 
society; and gradually he seems to have been hypnotized by the 
imperial idea, and he began to speak with two voices. When Mr. 
Redmond came over to Ireland he spoke with a fairly strong voice. 
When speaking in England he spoke with a very weak voice. He 
said, at the latter end of his life, words amounting to this: "I only 
ask you for Home Rule. We would not dream of asking you for 
anything that would injure you in any way whatever. And any- 
thing endangering English freedom or the British Empire we will 
not ask you for. And, therefore, we will not even ask you for 
our customs and excise." When Mr. Redmond said that he did not 
speak for the Irish people. He spoke for himself and for a very 
small number of people whom we in Ireland call West Britons — 
that is, those who ought to be Irish, but are very anxious to re- 
main English. We call them West Britons. Mr. Redmond spoke, 
when he said that, not for the Irish nation. The Irish nation never 
agreed with him. Never once in any speech he made in Ireland 
did he dare to say anything like that. The Irish people's attitude 
always was: If our independence is going to hurt the British Em- 
pire, so much the worse for the British Empire. They have no 
right to want anything that is inconsistent with the rights of an- 
other nation. The people began to get very angry with the Na- 



191 

tionalist party, and then a movement started in Ireland which 
was called the Sinn Fein movement. 

EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM DESIGNED TO DENA- 
TIONALIZE IRELAND 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh : Miss MacSwiney, do you not think that this 
would be a good way to come at this Republican movement, to 
trace your own movements in Ireland. You were a teacher at 
this time, I believe? 

A. Yes, I have been a teacher since 1901, when I left college. 

Q. And you might state to the Commission briefly the general 
plans of the educational system in Ireland. Are you a teacher 
in what is known as the public school? Give, if you will, please, 
the different lines on which the educational system is founded. 

A. Our educational system differs greatly from yours. I may not 
have yours very correctly, but what I understand by public schools 
in America are those financed by the state, to which all people of 
all classes can go free of charge; that in addition you have in 
America a good many private schools; that these are mainly for 
rich people, who prefer to have their children educated separately; 
and that they are of a different kind, and will, perhaps, give a 
different kind of education. Is that not so? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: That is quite broad. 

The Witness: Well, in England what you call public schools they 
call board schools. Their national schools are schools run by the 
Church of England, and all other denominations as well as the 
Church of England can have their private schools, which can get 
their grant from the state; not as good a grant as the board schools 
get, but a grant, provided they confine the teaching of religion 
to certain hours of the day. 

Q. On what conditions can the schools get the government 
grant? Is it based on examinations, or what? 

A. Now it is not any longer. It is on inspection. 

Q. But prior to the war? 

A. It is on inspection, and has been for some time. In Ire- 
land we have what is called the National Education Act, which 
is the most unnational thing you can imagine. The National Edu- 
cation Act was passed in 1831. The object was to allow people 
of all classes to attend schools. It was the very first time that 
Catholics were allowed to be educated. There was another Act 
passed earlier that allowed them to have a certain amount of 
education. But education for the common people only began by 



192 

this act of 1831. Previously they got what education they could 
get illegally. We had in Ireland what we called hedge schools, be- 
cause the master sat under a hedge. He taught his pupils in the 
open air because he had no school house. The National Educa- 
tion Act passed in 1831 was passed with the express purpose — 
definitely expressed — of denationalizing Ireland and anglicizing it. 
And in connection with that I would like to tell you a little story. 
You have all heard of Sir Walter Scott's poetry, and you know 
that he has written a little poem that begins like this: 

Breathes there a man with soul so dead 
Who never to himself has said, 

"This is my own, my native land"; 
Whose heart hath ne'er within him burned 
As home his footsteps he has turned 

From wandering on a foreign strand. 

And it goes on to say that if there is such a man, he should go 
"'down to the vile depths from which he sprung, unwept, unhon- 
ored, and unsung." When Archbishop Whately, the Protestant 
Bishop of Dublin, got together a number of clerks and secretaries, 
and got them to help him compile books for the new national 
schools, he found among one of the books, in revising them, this 
extract. It was to go into one of the books for the national schools. 
Of course, that would never do, even if it was copied from the 
best English school books. The secretary who put that in prob- 
ably lost his job. Archbishop Whately said, "What a stupid thing 
it was to put that into the books, when what we want is to make 
these Irish children forget they have a land." And he substi- 
tuted for it a rhyme which began : 

I thank the goodness and the grace 

That on my birth has smiled, 
And made me in these blessed davs 

A happy English child. 

Of course we» call this blasphemv. We do not thank God for a 
lie. 

I have told you that little story to give you the whole tone of 
the education in those so-called national schools. It was abso- 
lutely forbidden to speak a word of Irish within the walls of 
the school, and that, mind, to children who could speak nothing 
else, because in those days Ireland was all Gaelic-speaking. Even 



193 

the children were whipped in school if they did not make haste 
and pick up English. In addition to that, no word of Irish his- 
tory was allowed to be taught in those schools. And in a whole 
series of school books appointed for those schools all over the 
country, Ireland was mentioned twice. On one occasion the Irish 
children were told that Ireland was an island lying to the west 
of Great Britain; and in the other place they were told that Ireland 
had been visited on a certain date by her gracious majesty, Queen 
Victoria. And that is the education the Irish children growing up 
in the middle of the nineteenth century got. 

You might ask me, Why did the Irish people accept it? The 
bishops of that time, with the exception of one glorious example, 
accepted it because they had no chance to get at their children to 
teach them, and they said, It is better for us to teach them their 
religion anyhow; and since we have the opportunity of teaching 
religion for the first time without hindrance, let us accept this 
Education Act with all its great drawbacks. The one glorious 
bishop who stood out against it was MacHale of Tuam. He said, 
"That Education Bill, as it stands, is an evil. If you accept il 
you are doing no good to religion and you are ruining nationality." 
And as long as he lived, which he did for about fifty years after 
this act was passed, he refused to allow a single national school 
in his diocese. Unfortunately he did not live long enough. But 
that is the sort of education our children are getting. But our 
children — if you will let me use the word — of the better class 
people — (I hate to use it because I am a thorough democrat, but 
I will use it here) — these children attend private schools. The 
better-off people send their children to be educated in England, 
and naturally they come back very English. 

SECONDARY EDUCATION FINANCED BY DISES- 
TABLISHMENT FUND AND WHISKEY TAX 

In 1869 the Irish Church was disestablished, and there was a 
great deal of money left over. And there was one and a quarter 
million of that — 

Q. One million pounds or one million dollars? 

A. 0, pounds — -about five million dollars that would be. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Not at the present rate of exchange. 

The Witness: Will you allow me to use pounds, because it is 
difficult for me to think in terms of dollars? Well, a great deal 
of money was devoted to education, secondary education, educa- 
tion for those who could afford to stay in school up to eighteen. 



194 

The national schools only prepared up to fourteen. For those who 
could afford to go on to the university these secondary schools 
were endowed from part of the money left from disestablishing 
the Irish Church. The system of education was that the Board 
laid down a certain program. Any school of any denomination 
could teach that program, and might enroll themselves as an 
Intermediate school provided they had seven pupils. They got a 
grant, after their pupils could pass this examination, which was 
divided into various grades. In the beginning they did very well, 
because there were not very many children, and there was no 
system of crams. But as the number of children increased and the 
money did not increase, of course the tendency was that the prizes 
and the grant had to be divided up among a great number of 
people, and got so small it could not finance education. A little 
more money was given; and I would like to point out to you here 
where this money came from. A certain proportion of the whiskey 
tax was devoted to education. The result was this: If our people 
were sober, there was very little money for education. If they got 
drunk, there might be a little more. But the total sum devoted to 
education in Ireland was about forty-five thousand pounds a year. 
That education became a cram system. There were certain books 
prescribed. Much depended upon the teacher; but nearly all the 
teachers in Ireland at the present day were brought up on that 
system themselves. Cram for examinations; no real development. 

ANGLICIZING INFLUENCE OF SECONDARY 
SCHOOLS 

For a long time Irish — the Gaelic language — was not allowed 
at all. Irish history was not allowed. I may as well tell you, 
incidentally, that when I was going to school in my own native 
city of Cork, I never learned one line of Irish history. It was 
only about two years before I left school and the history class 
that Irish history was allowed, with much fear and trembling, 
to be taught. And then it was not Irish history, but it was the 
history of England in Ireland. That was what was called Irish 
history. But some of us did not confine ourselves to that. We 
learned a little more. How much you learned depended upon 
what sort of a family you came from — what England would call a 
rebellious strain. Therefore the majority of the people, who were 
in the hard struggle for existence, knew nothing about Irish his- 
tory. And that has given England a chance to say the Irish people 
do not want independence. The Irish people do want independ- 



195 

ence, but because of their bad education they do not know how to 
express their desires. 

Another thing I would like you to know about education in the 
secondary and national schools is that there is one set of people 
in Ireland that were not there in Archbishop MacHale's time. They 
refused to go under the Board of National Education. They were 
the Christian Brothers. The Christian Brothers refused it because 
you had to confine religious education in schools to one-half hour 
a day, and you had to use books appointed by the national board, 
and those books omitted all mention of Irish history, about Irish 
heroes, or a single word about a martyr or a saint whatever. And 
the Christian Brothers would not have that system, and they adopted 
books of their own, which are very fine books. And perhaps the 
reason that the men of Ireland are better educated and know more 
about the history of their land than the women do, is that the 
men have been educated by the Christian Brothers and the women 
have been educated in the national schools or anglicizing secondary 
schools. 

Commissioner Addams: But there is one exception. 

The Witness: 0, Miss Addams, there are many exceptions. But 
I am talking about what the government gave us and not what we 
gave ourselves. 

About the second schools: the anglicizing influence of the sec- 
ondary schools was much greater than the anglicizing influence of 
the national schools, because it was fashionable to ape England. 
And there was a certain class of people in Ireland who were the 
outcome of this system of education. I think they probably would 
be much worse in any other country than our own. But they 
were ashamed to be Irish. They all of them finished their educa- 
tion in England, and they were so happy if by any chance they 
were mistaken for Englishmen. That type of man is hopeless in 
a country. And you have no idea how hard we had to fight to 
kill this influence, but thank God it is dead. 

The influence of all the secondary schools in Ireland made it 
seem fashionable to be English. So when the Sinn Fein move- 
ment started in 1905, you might be quite sure of this, that the 
meaning of it was neither understood nor appreciated in the 
schools — the upper class schools, the fashionable schools of Ire- 
land. The system in those schools was English. It was an angliciz- 
ing influence entirely. I am sorry to say that it was largely car- 
ried on by religious denominations, by the nuns, who were afraid. 
They were very timid, and were afraid to be anything except con- 
ventional. They are different now, of course. They followed 



196 

suit when the times have become Republican. And even then 
there were many bold exceptions. But that was the run of the 
secondary schools. 

THE MEANING AND POLICY OF SINN FEIN 

I will have to digress from the educational question to explain 
Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein with us today means the party which follows 
the Republican policy — what Ireland is today. I have seen in 
American papers, for instance, "The Sinn Fein," as if Sinn Fein 
were a people. Now, Sinn Fein is a policy, as you have the 
Democratic policy and the Republican policy. 

Commissioner Maurer: We do not have it now. We used to 
have it. 

The Witness: Like we used to have West Britons in Ireland? 
Well, I do not know enough about your policies to know if they 
are a good thing or a bad thing, but if you Americans want it, 
that is your business. Now, Sinn Fein is a policy, but the Irish 
Republic is a country. Suppose, for instance, I asked you what 
nationality you were, and you told me you were Democratic. I 
am quite sure that your countrymen, your fellow-citizens, would 
resent that very much. A Democrat is a member of a particular 
organization or a particular party. Sinn Fein is a policy, but 
the Irish Republic Government is the authorized recognized gov- 
ernment of the Irish people, their chosen government. And so we 
do not call ourselves Sinn Feiners. We call ourselves Irish Re- 
publicans, just as you call yourselves Americans. We may have 
a Sinn Fein policy, or some other kind of policy, within our own 
country. 

I will tell you where the confusion comes. When Parnell and 
Redmond had failed to secure even a measure of freedom for 
Ireland, Arthur Griffith, who was founder of the Sinn Fein policy 
and vice-president of our Republic today, took a different policy. 
He wanted a reversion to the Grattan Parliament of 1782, with 
proper representative franchise and an executive which would be 
subject to Parliament. Grattan's Parliament, while it did a great 
deal of good, had none of these. It had a strictly confined fran- 
chise, and the executive was under the control of England. He 
said, We are to reach this goal by a policy of self-reliance. He 
took the name Sinn Fein, which simply is the Irish word for 
"ourselves." And he took it as a policy of self-reliance. Up to 
that time we had been working at Westminster for a very long time 
to see what we could pet out of Westminster. We also had our 






197 

eyes on America to see if there would be anything good coming 
from that quarter. During L798, when we were at open war with 
England, we looked to the French for help. But Griffith said. 
There is no good casting your eyes to the ends of the earth. Only 
the fools' eyes are there. We can do a good deal more at home. 
We can develop our industries. We can study the Irish language. 
The Gaelic League had started some years before that. He made 
the main plank in his policy abstention from Westminster. 

That was the policy of Sinn Fein. The reversion to Grattan's 
Parliament meant a separate Parliament for Ireland. He took 
Parnell's view that you cannot put bounds to the onward march 
of a nation. But although he wanted a different Parliament, there 
would be the same king over both countries. That was the original 
policy of Sinn Fein. The name has stuck to what has been the 
policy of the Irish people all along — utter and entire independence. 
Certain of us in Ireland have never joined Sinn Fein. My brother 
was never a member of any Sinn Fein club, simply because it was 
not expressly Republican. It was implied. But he took the atti- 
tude that the mere repression of the statement that we are aiming 
at a Republic is a compromise. And we stand where Wolfe Tone 
stood. So he said, We will not join Sinn Fein. But he helped it, 
especially the policy of the development of Irish industry. He 
worked for the policy of Sinn Fein without ever declaring himself 
a Sinn Feiner. 

Q. How old was your brother when he died? 

A. Forty. 

THE MACSWINEY FAMILY ALWAYS REPUBLICAN 

Q. I think it might be well to develop your statement along that 
line, by a statement of your brother's activities. 

A. I am afraid I would be too long. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I might say to the Commission that, riding 
over on the train with Miss MacSwiney, I found she knows much 
more about this than any of us. She asked me to make suggestions 
from time to time that might keep the narrative in order and get 
everything in. I just made that suggestion. Of course, if it does 
not fit there, Miss MacSwiney should go on. 

The Witness: The only reason I hesitated was that the Com- 
mission might sit for a whole week and ask me questions and yet 
not get to the end of the story. I am at your disposal as long as 
you like. 

In regard to my brother's activities. Perhaps that would be 



198 

interesting just at this point. I might say that we have always been 
Republican. Not only all our lives, but all our generations. We 
came down from the north of Ireland, where our family originally 
came from in the thirteenth century, and we settled in County 
Cork in the fourteenth century. And I think there are very few 
generations or fights since when we have not given some sort of 
account of ourselves. Writing in the days of Elizabeth, a certain 
one of her ministers, Sir Henry Bagenal, said of Ireland — he 
wanted at that time to capture the young Red Hugh O'Donnell, the 
chieftain of the north, and he was very exercised because the leader 
of the MacSwineys of that day was the guardian and foster-father 
of young Red Hugh. In those days in Ireland there was the prac- 
tice of fosterage. It meant that the sons of the chief of one family 
were sent to the chiefs of other tribes to be educated. And young 
Red Hugh O'Donnell had been sent to MacSwiney of the Battle 
Axes to be educated, because he was the greatest chieftain of the 
North. The MacSwineys were always a great military power there. 
So Sir Henry Bagenal, writing to Queen Elizabeth, said, "Your 
Majesty, if I could only manage to get rid of this MacSwiney, I 
would be able to capture Red Hugh. I think I have a plan." 
He had a plan. He succeeded in capturing him by duplicity. It 
is not necessary to tell you that story. 

Besides being great military chieftains, the MacSwineys had 
great characters even in those days. I hope you will not think me 
blowing a family trumpet, but since it is a great many generations 
back, it will not make any difference. They had a characteristic 
even in those days of being honest, and an honest person is at a 
disadvantage in dealing with rogues, because they give the others 
credit for being honest, too. So this MacSwiney, being honest, 
went aboard an apparently harmless merchant ship that came to 
port. He went on board to pay a friendly, courteous visit to the 
captain. While they were in the cabin on this friendly, courteous 
visit, the hatches were closed down on them, the anchors loosened, 
and they were taken prisoners to Dublin, which was about the 
only place Queen Elizabeth had for herself in Ireland. That was 
the history of the MacSwineys of those days. 

The family eventually came south and settled in County Cork, 
and there is hardly a place in the whole barony of Muskerry, as 
they called that country in those days, where our family had not 
built castles. There are still ruins all around County Cork be- 
longing to them. In Cromwell's time we went the way of all the 
Irish chieftains. Cromwell took the land and gave it to one of 
his troopers named Sweet. And the Sweets held that land, and 



199 

some of this family hold it still. They thus became the so-called 
gentry. 

All the Irish chieftains, when they were dispossessed of their 
land, hated to go away. They preferred to work as laborers on 
the meanest little farm than to leave Ireland and their native soil. 
There is an extraordinary attachment to the very sod of the earth 
in an Irish heart. These people did not leave the county. They 
took service as laborers, and became small farmers when it got 
possible to buy a farm, and stayed there. There actually is at this 
present day a direct descendant of the MacSwineys living on a farm 
on the grounds where are the ruins of his ancestral castle. He is 
also Terence MacSwiney. 

Chairman Howe: Just a moment. I notice Senator Gore in the 
rear of the hall. (Applause.) 

As you all know, no man in the United States Senate has been 
interested more earnestly in human questions than Senator Gore. 
We would like to have him come forward. (Continued applause. 
Senator Gore is ushered to the Commissioners' bench.) 

Chairman Howe: Miss MacSwiney will proceed. 

THE SPIRIT OF THE FAMILY 

The Witness: You have been kind enough to ask me for some of 
our family history. I do not want to spend too long on it. I 
want to get my brother's particular part. Just before the famine 
period our family moved to Bandon. My grandfather was mar- 
ried twice. They were there during the period of the famine. 
My grandmother used to tell me very many stories when I was a 
child. I am using the word famine because it is so familiar to 
say it like that, but I want to emphasize it once more that it was 
not a famine, in a country where the fields were growing beautiful 
rich corn and where there was meat and butter in plenty. There is 
no famine in that country. It was organized starvation. My father 
was only a little boy, only a child, at the time of the famine. When 
he was growing up they removed to the City of Cork. Of course 
you can understand the want of employment there is in an unde- 
veloped country. Some of you have been in our country and 
you must have noticed how undeveloped it is — no factories; even 
the very fields undeveloped. The cause of that is not laziness, as 
you have been often told. It is a fact that we have not been allowed 
to develop our country. So my father went to England and worked 
there for a while, and there got married. He returned to Ireland 
somewhere about 1880 or 1881. I am not sure of the dates. He 



200 

joined his brother -in-law in a partnership as a tobacco manufac- 
turer. The partnership did not turn out very successfully, and he 
started afterwards himself, but again he did not succeed very well. 
Matters were against him, and so the business was closed. My 
father died when we were children. I think the last time — he died 
away from home, where he had to go for his health, and my brother 
Terence was only about eight when he saw his father for the last 
time. But even so, there were a lot of old family customs which 
he had put into us children — the spirit of the family. One of them 
was that every Sunday afternoon we had to learn a little poem 
about Ireland for my father. We generally stood with our backs 
to the dining-room door, and recited for him. Terence was the 
last that ever did that. He was only eight when my father died. 
We had to learn some little poem and it had to be about Ireland. 
We learned T. D. Sullivan's poems; Thomas Davis' poems, all 
of them of an insurrectionary character. And I think that the more 
fiery the poem was, the bigger reward we got. I remember get- 
ting a bright, new sixpence when I recited "The Death of Owen 
Roe O'Neill." It was a very fiery poem, indeed, and two whole 
verses were taken up with curses on England. I was about nine 
when I recited that. My mother was very shocked, and I heard 
her say in an undertone to my father, "Really, that child should 
not use such frightful language.'' He said he didn't think it would 
do me any harm. 

EDUCATION AND EARLY ACTIVITIES OF TERENCE 
MACSWINEY 

My brother went to school to the Christian Brothers, but he was 
not satisfied with it. It was not a national school, as has been 
stated; but it was so far ahead of the others that we gave them 
credit for having the only Irish schools in Ireland. He went in 
for the Intermediate examinations and got exhibitions — that is, a 
monev prize in each class. He left school when he was about six- 
teen and went into business. In normal times and in less strenuous 
conditions, as far as money went, he would have remained at 
school and entered a college course, and would have become a 
writer or a poet. But he had to leave school, because the family 
was not well off, and entered business. He did not like business. 
And he educated himself and was able to take a university degree, 
and he became a Bachelor of Arts. Not only that, but he did a 
great deal of writing besides. He wrote poems. In looking through 
his papers after his death I came across the letter that I myself 



201 

wrote him congratulating him on the first poem that was published 
over his name. He became very interested in national things. 
There is a society in Cork called the Celtic Literary Society. I 
think he must have been about seventeen when he was one of the 
founders of that. It was a body of young men animated by the 
Republican ideal. They used to meet together after business hours; 
they read and wrote essays, and brought out a little magazine that 
circulated among a certain crowd. And that Celtic Literary So- 
ciety did develop other national activities. The thing that stands 
most to its credit is the Irish Industrial Development Associa- 
tion, which is one of the things those young men started. I told 
you that he never joined Arthur Griffith's Sinn Fein Society be- 
cause it was not primarily for Republican independence, but he 
worked along that line, as far as it went, and with one or two 
others was responsible for the founding of the Irish Industrial 
Development Association. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: You might sketch that. 

The Witness: It was really a society strictly non-political and 
non-sectarian, and formed for the especial purpose of developing 
Irish industries — to make the people of Ireland, — who had been 
avoiding Irish goods without any thought, — to buy Irish goods 
wherever they could get them. They started industries. It spread 
from Cork to Dublin, and naturally Dublin, being the capital, 
became the center. But Cork has the honor of starting it. Mr. 
Fawsitt, who is now the Consul-General of the Irish Republic here, 
was secretary in Cork for many years. He was considered the 
best man to send over here for that reason. The fact that we have 
a consul here today, and have a consul in almost every European 
country, entirely against the wishes of Great Britain, is entirely 
due to my brother and his comrades who started this society in 
Cork in 1901, I think. It might be a year one way or another. 
That was one of his activities. 

GAELIC LEAGUE RENATIONALIZES MINDS OF 

PEOPLE 

Another was the Gaelic League. This was a society, also non- 
sectarian and non-political, for the purpose of developing the 
Irish language and making the people Irish-speaking again. The 
soul of a people is expressed in its langauge. And if you speak 
a foreign language continuously, you will naturally develop the 
soul of that language within you. The great anglicizing power 
that England had over Ireland was in that she had almost killed 



202 

the Irish language. She was very clever in her propaganda. It 
is a great mistake to think that England is not a clever nation. 
She is very clever and very insidious in her propaganda. She 
never said to the people outright, You shall not speak Irish. But 
she took the children and educated it out of them. There is a 
little verse about the truth coming out in spite of oneself, like 
the story I told you of Archbishop Whately and the verse of Sir 
Walter Scott. When Lloyd George said the other day, when Irish 
atrocities were mentioned in the House of Commons, that those 
things will happen in a state of war, he thereby admitted that 
there was a state of war in Ireland. And so you get the truth out 
like that occasionally in a moment of high pressure. 

About the Gaelic League. We wanted to renationalize the minds 
of the people, and that could best be done by the Gaelic language. 
And so classes all over the country started up for the teaching 
of Gaelic. Old men and young men who knew the Gaelic language 
well, wherever they could be found, were brought into the cities 
and set to work as teachers. You could see them night after night 
in stuffy rooms, — mainly because most of these people were poor. 
They had no money back of them to help their propaganda. They 
worked hard during the day, and at night sat around the table 
there in these little rooms and studied Gaelic and made them- 
selves Gaelic speakers. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Miss MacSwiney, to what extent in the last 
ten or fifteen years has the speaking of the Gaelic language been 
extended among the Irish people? 

A. I could not give you the exact statistics, but it has devel- 
oped very wonderfully. For instance, when those young men 
began to learn the Gaelic language, they were looked upon as 
curios. Their own people could not understand. They said, What 
is the use of that outlandish thing? But they persevered, and now 
today the person who cannot speak Gaelic is ashamed of himself 
or herself. 

Q. It is then exceptional to find anyone who cannot speak 
Gaelic? 

A. It is the exception to find anyone who is not trying. It is 
very easy to find some who cannot hold a good conversation in 
Gaelic. 

Q. And that has all been acquired through private instruction? 
There has been no public instruction? 

A. None whatever at first. But they forced the Irish language 
into the schools. They started a propaganda in the newspapers 
and succeeded in getting Gaelic into the schools. But it is taught 



203 

as a foreign language, and in our own country! In our own 
schools our own language is taught as a foreign language! The 
development of Gaelic today was caused by a handful of enthu- 
siasts who had the idea and persevered. The Gaelic League was 
non-sectarian and non-political, and they got into it a good many 
people who were interested in the language, perhaps, from an 
historical point of view, perhaps from a literary point of view; and 
these people joined in because it was non-secretarian and non- 
political. But those who remained and made themselves speakers 
of the language had the right idea, the right Irish idea behind them. 

COUNTERED ENGLISH PROPAGANDA 

In addition to that, my brother aided a great many other activi- 
ties. There was considerable English propaganda going on. These 
young men started themselves to counteract this propaganda. Part 
of this English propaganda consisted of visits of royal personages 
to Ireland. When these royal persons were coming, there was 
always a great effort to get loyal addresses from corporations 
and like bodies. That succeeded for very many years. Then this 
body of young men took it upon themselves to see that that did not 
succeed any more. In 1906 or 1907, when the late King Edward 
was visiting Ireland, they had a little room up over the street, 
and they hung out a black flag instead of the union jack. They 
hissed and booed a great deal. Of course, needless to say, the 
police were down on them, but they did not care about that. They 
took good care to see that the corporations did not pass a loyal 
address, and the corporations did not. 

All these things are small, but it is out of those that our success 
has come today. Not that the soul of Ireland was not always 
Republican, — I should like to get that into your heads; but it is 
because it is more successfully Republican. As Mr. Griffith said 
in a message to some people in America, "Today is our Valley 
Forge; tomorrow will be our Yorktown." But if I am not mis- 
taken, at your Valley Forge the soldiers had to bear the brunt 
of the suffering. But in our Valley Forge the women and chil 
dren have to bear the brunt of the sufferings. But our turn is 
coming tomorrow, as surely as yours came. 

That represents the activities of my brother. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Might I ask if the telegram that came 
from the Cork Chamber of Commerce, that came to this country to 
protest against ships not stopping at Queenstown, was that a part 
of your brother's movement? 



201 

A. Yes, they started that, but it was years afterwards. 

Q. But after this, this Commission came to America of which 
Mr. Fawsitt was a member, and it is as a result of their efforts that 
there is a line of ships running to Ireland such as we have today? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you say that this work was or was not a good thing 
for the industries of Ireland? 

A. Of course, it has made our industries much more pros- 
perous. It has given employment to hundreds of thousands of 
people. As a matter of fact, it was out of the Industrial Devel- 
opment Association that the cooperative creamery movement was 
started by Sir Horace Plunkett. Everybody realized that the 
country should be developed, and they started where they could. 
And then Sir Horace Plunkett started his creameries all over the 
country, which the English are now burning to ruin the industry. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Where were we? 

CARSON INCITES ULSTER TO REBELLION 

A. I am coming to the Volunteer movement. You remember 
that there was a Home Rule Bill introduced in Parliament in 1912, 
one of many. It was in the hope of stopping all this activity 
and getting the people to accept definitely Home Rule in the 
British Empire, — which would, of course, leave England's hands 
in our pockets all the time. It was absolutely no use, that Home 
Rule Bill of 1912, except that it would be centering Irish inter- 
ests in Dublin instead of London. I said that Mr. Arthur Griffith's 
policy in the old days was abstention from Westminster. West- 
minster, of course, means the English Houses of Parliament. The 
only good that a Home Rule Bill would have done would be that 
the center of gravity would have been shifted from London to Ire- 
land. That would have had a very great effect. The people would 
have said then, Why should we have so little when we might have 
had more? Sir Edward Carson said he did not want Home 
Rule. He started in 1913 the idea of forcible resistance to Home 
Rule. He said, "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right." He 
said a great many other things. The main thing is that he got 
guns and ammunition, and he got them from Germany. He also 
said, We will not come under a Catholic government, and if 
the English people throw us over, we will enroll ourselves under 
the greatest Protestant nation in the world, under the German 
nation." He said he would invite the German emperor over himself 
if the English forced Home Rule upon them. 



205 

Q. Senator Walsh: Are these things matters of public record? 

A. 0, yes, absolutely. They are in all the English papers and 
Irish papers of the time. You will find them in book form, Sir 
Edward Carson's statements. They have been collected together by 
an Irish Republican and put into book form and called, "The 
Grammar of Anarchy." When Sir Edward Carson made those 
statements, he got something like two million pounds from Eng- 
land for propaganda, and also the promise that the English Tories 
would fight with them. He also stirred up a revolt at the Curragh 
camp, and the British officers in the Curragh camp said they would 
not, if they were ordered, go and put down a revolution in the 
Covenanters' camp. They were called Covenanters because they 
covenanted together that they would not have Home Rule; they 
would have the Castle code. We were very happy when we knew 
what Sir Edward Carson was doing. His statements have been 
collected in book form, as I said. One Sinn Feiner got some- 
thing like six months' imprisonment for having in his possession 
seditious literature, and the only seditious literature he had in his 
possession, besides a few newspapers, was Sid Edward Carson's 
statements. 

IRISH VOLUNTEERS ORGANIZE TO RESIST 
AGGRESSION 

Sir Edward Carson started the Volunteers. There was always 
an Act in Ireland that you must not have arms in your possession. 
It was not enforced, however. Sir Edward Carson succeeded in 
getting a large quantity of arms presently. We looked on and 
said nothing. We let Sir Edward Carson and his Volunteers get 
along splendidly. If we could have patted him on the back, we 
would have told him to go ahead. He went ahead a good while. 
And then our people in the south began to say publicly, Well, of 
course, if Sir Edward Carson is getting armed for a march on 
Cork, we will have to arm also. And then they started the Irish 
Volunteers. England was in a fix. She had patted Sir Edward 
Carson on the back when he formed the Ulster Volunteers. Eng- 
lish societies had been organized to subscribe money for drums 
for these Ulster Volunteers. The English Government had looked 
on with a more or less benevolent eye. And then if she had said, 
There must be no Irish Volunteers, the world would have said, 
That is not impartial. But within one week of our starting the 
Irish Volunteers, the Arms Act was enforced and the Govern- 



206 

ment said, No arms in Ireland. Within one week! Sir Edward 
Carson had been getting arms for several months. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What date was this? 

A. This was somewhere in the early days of 1914, in the spring, 
before the War. He got a boat 

Q. Had the Home Rule Bill passed passed Parliament? 

A. It had passed the House of Commons in 1912, but on ac- 
count of the House of Lords it had been suspended for two years. 

Q. It passed the House of Commons in 1912? 

A. Yes, and it went to the House of Lords, and the House of 
Lords threw it out. 

Q. What date was it passed? 

A. In 1914. 

Q. After the War? 

A. After the War, yes; after the Recruiting Act. 

Q. But it was known in 1914 that it would be passed, — it was 
known before the War? 

A. Yes. 

Q. So that these preparations that were made were in prepara- 
tion for the Act? 

A. Yes. 

GUN-RUNNINGS AT LARNE AND HOWTH SHOW 
ENGLAND'S BIAS 

In the spring of 1914 a ship loaded with arms set out from 
Germany for Sid Edward Carson. The English government knew 
perfectly well what was being done, and that those arms were 
going to Sir Edward Carson. There was a little camouflage done. 
The boat started with one name from Hamburg and was stopped 
in midocean and repainted and renamed, and came into Larne, 
which is one of the Orange ports up there. The policemen are 
all Orangemen. They were all sympathetic with Sir Edward Car- 
son. It was absolutely contrary to law, of course, but that made 
no matter. The guns were safely landed in Larne and safely 
stored. And the next morning it was all over the English and 
Irish press. The English Parliament held up their hands in horror. 
It was a very illegal act, said Mr. Asquith, but he made no motion 
to punish that act. Well, we will take a good example from peo- 
ple when we get it; and as we followed the Irish Volunteers after 
the Ulster Volunteers, we were not too proud to follow Sir Edward 
Carson in gun-running. And the last week in July, 1914, the 
Howth gun-running took place. I was in England at the time on a 



207 

little holiday. The Howth gun-running — now notice the difference. 
The Ulster gun-running was in support of what England wanted. 
She was forced to pass the Home Rule Bill because she had to 
take the lesser of two evils. So she allowed those guns into Ulster. 
But when we started gun-running she knew that what we said, we 
meant, and therefore our gun-running had to be stopped. Well, 
it was not. Our people got in quite a number of guns that day. 
In spite of a regiment of soldiers and all the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary that were available, the guns were not captured. But 
several men, women, and children were shot down on the streets 
of Dublin by the soldiers returning empty-handed from Howth. 
That was the massacre of Bachelors' Walk, which took place exactly 
one week before the declaration of war on the continent and two 
weeks before England declared it. 

That shows you whether England wants to be impartial. She 
tries to say that she wants to treat the north and south alike. 
I could give you a hundred, a thousand examples if time permitted 
to show you that she never does, — instances of this kind. Then 
came the War. 

VOLUNTEERS DECLARE FOR A REPUBLIC 

Q. Senator Walsh: These Volunteers meantime had organized 
all over Ireland. 

A. All over Ireland. But there was this against them. Mr. 
Redmond set his face against any volunteers whatever. He wanted 
to keep to the Constitutional movement. At the time the Volun- 
teers were started, it was said that they only wanted to take meas- 
ures against Sir Edward Carson's rebellion. He felt that it was 
dangerous to let the young men take things into their own hands. 

Q. And this organization was called the Irish Volunteers? 

A. The Irish Volunteers. 

Q. And they included the people of all classes? Did they in- 
clude women? 

A. no, only the men were armed. But the women formed 
the Cumann na m'Ban, a society something like your Red Cross, 
a patriotic society to help carry on the work. 

Q. Up to this time, Miss MacSwiney, was there a Sinn Fein 
movement, or was this simply a movement among the people, — a 
movement among the Irish Volunteers to arm and protect them- 
selves against attacks from the north? 

A. Well, this was a movement among the young men to arm 
to defend themselves for Irish rights. 



208 

Q. Exactly. Hut up to this time there was no movement for 
independence? 

A. No, of course, that was the idea back of every movement 
in Ireland. But it was not precisely stated until the first Vol- 
unteer convention, which was held in 1914. They definitely stated 
their policy as a Republic. The policy of the Irish Volunteers 
was the policy of the Irish Republic, a continuation of the fight for 
freedom that had been always going on. They armed themselves 
in defense of the rights and liberties of the Irish nation. The 
women joined Cumann na m'Ban. 

REDMOND DEMANDS CONTROL OF THE 
VOLUNTEERS 

Q. You answer my question. Now, going back to Redmond's 
position before the outbreak of the war? 

A. Before the war Redmond disapproved of the Irish Volun- 
teers. He sent messages and letters to all the A. 0. H. 1 branches 
all over the country forbidding them to join the Irish Volunteers. 
But that is where I would like to point out to you, as I said 
awhile ago, that the policy of Ireland was always Republican, and 
when they found that a leader set himself against Irish inde- 
pendence, then the leader fell and not the movement. Mr. Red- 
mond sent orders that no member of his organization was to join 
the Irish Volunteers. But they joined in hundreds and thousands 
all over the country. So that by June, 1914, they were coming in 
in very large numbers, and Mr. Redmond began to see that he 
could not possibly forbid the movement. And, therefore, the next 
step was to control it. A great number of people, though they 
did not refrain from joining the Irish Volunteers at the bidding of 
Mr. Redmond, believed in his sincerity and in his desire for ulti- 
mate separation from England. And when he wanted to come and 
control the movement, they didn't see any reason why he should 
not, when he was going to improve it, you see. So he demanded 
that he have a voice in the councils of the Irish Volunteers, and he 
demanded a number — twenty-five, twenty-five members nominated 
by him to sit on the council. A great many were against giving 
him that, — a great many, the majority, in their hearts. But as a 
matter of policy they felt this: if we refuse to allow Mr. Redmond's 
nominees on the council of the Irish Volunteers, we will imme- 
diately have a split, which of all things should be avoided at the 



Ancient Order of Hibernians. 



209 

present moment. And so the majority of the council gave in and 
allowed Mr. Redmond to nominate members for the Irish Volun- 
teers' council. There were nine who opposed it. Of those nine 
there were many who lost their lives in Easter Week, 1916. What 
would have happened if they had gone on? The whole policy of 
Mr. Redmond was to weaken the Volunteers. He got a number of 
guns, but they were useless. He did not want war. He didn't 
want any physical force in Ireland. We knew that he didn't want 
it, and that his action was weakening our movement. But at that 
time it would have been worse to start out against him and say, 
You will not get a single nominee on our council. 

REDMOND'S SUPPORT OF ENGLAND'S WAR 
CAUSES SPLIT 

When the war came Mr. Redmond started as recruiter-in-chief 
for England. 

Q. Senator Walsh: In Ireland? 

A. In Ireland. You remember Sir Edward Grey, as he was at 
that time, in speaking of the black outlook in Europe on the eve 
of the war, spoke of Ireland as the one bright spot, because he 
knew that Mr. Redmond sided with England in the war, and he 
thought that Ireland would follow Mr. Redmond. But he made 
a mistake. Ireland was furiously and indignantly insulted at 
being called the one bright spot. But the people did not know what 
was going on. The next thing was that stories of German atrocities 
in Belgium began pouring in, — how they were cutting off the hands 
of all the little Belgian children. How these stories were believed 
is a mystery to me. But they were believed largely in Ireland. 
Many people became violently anti-German, and because anti- 
German, pro-British. That is, the unthinking people. Those of us 
who knew something of history knew that perhaps ninety-five per 
cent of the stories were lies. War always brings atrocities. There 
is no doubt that Germany was guilty of atrocities in the recent 
war. There is equally no doubt that England committed worse 
atrocities. But there is also no doubt that the stories told in Ire- 
land to touch the kind hearts of our people were lies. I could 
give you many instances where they were lies. The only people 
who were not deceived by them were the poeple who knew that the 
stories that England was telling about German atrocities were 
absolutely word for word the stories she was telling the world in 
1798 about Irish atrocities. One of our national journals printed 
one week, in the early days of the war, in one column the stories 



210 

England was telling Ireland about German atrocities, and, in a 
parallel column, the stories England was telling the world about 
Irish atrocities in 1798. And we who knew what lies the stories 
of 1798 were, concluded logically that the other stories were lies, 
too. But you must remember that the Irish people did not know 
their own history; that when England allowed Irish history to be 
taught in the schools, she only allowed it to be taught in books 
controlled by her. Therefore, the people of Ireland would believe 
these stories. Some of them may have been true, but the majority 
of them were prevarications, the sort of English propaganda that 
we had been fighting for centuries. 

Mr. Redmond came over and stood with Mr. Asquith, or who- 
ever was Premier at the time, and advised the Irish people to go 
to war for small nations. You can hardly blame us for being 
skeptical. As a preliminary measure, they passed the Home Rule 
Act, and then put it on the shelf until after the war, and said it 
was only to be passed with an amendment clause that would sat- 
isfy Ulster. The next point was an absolute division with Mr. 
Redmond's Volunteers, the National Volunteers, as they were called, 
and the Irish Volunteers. Now, because a great many of those 
who had been strongly connected with the Sinn Fein movement, 
which, as I told you, was a constitutional movement when it 
started,— a great many of those who had been constitutional Sinn 
Feiners had immediately joined the ranks of the Irish Volunteers, 
the tag got on, Sinn Fein Volunteers versus National Volunteers. 
Redmond called his the National Volunteers. We in Ireland called 
them Redmondites. But the general public, to distinguish be- 
tween them, called them Nationalist Volunteers and Sinn Fein 
Volunteers. The Nationalist followers firmly believed with Mr. 
Redmond that this was the way to win liberty for the country. 
The Irish Volunteers did not. Very soon the National Volunteers 
disappeared. They got no recruits. The recruits went into the 
Irish Volunteers. 

SUPPRESSION OF CIVIL LIBERTIES BEGINS 

So matters stood until 1916. There was a great deal of harassing 
work going on in the meantime. The papers were suppressed one 
after another. We had a paper called Irish Freedom, which ran 
for some months, and then it was suppressed. Generally each sup- 
pressed paper would appear the next week under another name. 
We did not know always what the name of it would be, but we knew 
its sentiments. There were many Republican papers suppressed. 
My brother started a paper called Fianna Fail. It means The Army 



211 

of Destiny. From the word Fianna the word Fenian has come, 
because they were the army of the great Irish hero, Finn MacCoole. 
All that time the suppression of papers went on, people were pre- 
vented from holding meetings, and various other things. 

My brother was one of the very first Volunteers in Cork. In 
regard to the founding of the Volunteers in Cork, there is a very 
interesting story. The organization was founded in November, 
1913, in Dublin. Eoin MacNeil and other people came down 
to speak at the inaugural meeting in Cork. I have told you that 
we Republicans were very much pleased when we saw what Sir 
Edward Carson was doing, because it gave us our chance. But 
we rather forgot that the mind of the country was not educated 
up to that point of view, and to them Sir Edward Carson was 
anathema because he was opposing Home Rule. Eoin MacNeil 
forgot that, and in the course of his speech he said Sir Edward 
Carson deserved three cheers from us for forming his Ulster Vol- 
unteers. That night there was a little body of men at the hall 
that were sent there for the purpose of making a row. That 
little remark of Eoin MacNeil gave them a chance, and they broke 
up the meeting. The Redmondite papers the next day spoke of 
the awful iniquity of calling for cheers for Sir Edward Carson, 
who was marching on Cork to put us to death. It was a foolish 
remark to make, because psychologically the people were not up 
to it at that time. They simply looked upon Sir Edward Carson 
as the opponent of independence and Home Rule. That retarded 
the work of the Volunteers in Cork for some time, and they did 
not advance as quickly as they did in Dublin. 

WOMEN ORGANIZE CUMANN NA M'BAN 

In the spring of 1914 we started this women's side movement, 
Cumann na m'Ban, as I have said, like Red Cross work, and we 
trained the minds of the people to know what the Republican 
movement meant. But our chief work was to support the Irish 
Volunteers by every means possible in their fight for the inde- 
pendence of Ireland. We wanted to get a big inaugural meeting, 
and we succeeded in getting a big inaugural meeting, which really 
gave the Volunteers a big chance to have a meeting also. Our 
meeting was a real help to them. You know how meetings are 
sometimes delayed. We began in March, and it was April when 
we got going. We invited Sir Roger Casement to come, but he 
could not. One of my dearest possessions today is an autographed 
letter from him explaining that he could not come down to the 
meeting. That was in May; and in the beginning of June Mr. 



212 

Redmond's call for control of the volunteers came. Then came the 
war. 

In November, 1914, we had a meeting at Dublin when the 
women had to decide whether they would remain neutral or side 
with the Irish Volunteers, or with Mr. Redmond's Volunteers, or 
split. Thank God we did not split, but remained on the side of the 
Irish Volunteers. Cumann na m'Ban has never deviated from that 
day, and they are still fighting on that position. 

EASTER WEEK THE FIRST BATTLE IN PRESENT 
WAR FOR INDEPENDENCE 

In 1916 we began our first open battle. I suppose you can 
regard the declaration of war on England as the day we reorganized 
the Irish Volunteers and said they are out to fight for the rights 
and liberties of the Irish people. But the first battle in this phase 
of the war that has been going on for so long was in Easter Week. 
1916. That battle failed. We lost it. But Padraic Pearse said, 
on the night before we were forced to evacuate the general post- 
office, "We have lost the first battle, but we have saved the soul 
of Ireland, and now the people can go ahead." Easter Week saved 
the soul of Ireland. From that day on there was no more possi- 
bility of the Irish people mistaking where their duty lay. From 
that day on there was no such thing as recruiting for any army 
except the Irish Volunteers. In consequence of the insurrection, 
the Irish people were arrested. About two thousand of them filled 
English jails. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: About how many Irish soldiers took part 
in the Easter uprising? 

A. Not more than one thousand. The English brought in regi- 
ments and armored cars and guns and shelled our capital. 

Q. Were they all Irish Volunteers? 

A. No, there was also the Citizens' Army, the Irish Citizens' 
Army. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: It was not a Sinn Fein army? It 
was a national army? 

A. It was a national army. The reason the name Sinn Fein 
stuck to it was that all these people got mixed up in the Irish In- 
dustrial Development Association and the Gaelic League, and all 
got to be called Sinn Feiners because some of them were Sinn 
Feiners, and because they all joined the Irish Volunteers' move- 
ment. Sinn Fein was a tag put on by the people. Sinn Fein was 



213 

originally a constitutional policy. But now the name has been 
adopted everywhere, and it is a Republican policy. 

After that there were wholesale arrests. 

Q. Chairman Howe: The story o.f what has happened in th^ 
Easter Rebellion ought to be a continuous story, ought it not? 

A. Would you like me to tell you? 

Chairman Howe: We would like to have you tell us some time, 
either now or after lunch. 

The Witness: About the Easter Week insurrection, I will try to 
put it as shortly as I can. 

Chairman Howe: I did not mean to suggest that. 

The Witness: I know, but it would take so long if I went into 
detail. The essential point for you to understand is that this insur- 
rection was confined mainly to Dublin. Galway rose also, but most 
of the fighting was in Dublin. You have often heard that Ireland 
was divided over this insurrection. I should like to explain about 
that. 

RIGHT OF IRISH REPUBLICANS TO RECEIVE AID 
FROM GERMANY 

We expected help in this insurrection. We expected arms. We 
had very few arms at that time. We were expecting Roger Case- 
ment to come from Germany with arms. I have no hesitation about 
acknowledging that, and I give no one in the world any apology for 
it. We were at war with England, and we were at liberty to get 
guns where we could to carry on that war. England said she was 
fighting for the rights of small nations. We had absolutely as much 
right to our liberty as Belgium had, about whose rights England 
was so solicitous. If we wanted to take Germany as an ally we had 
a right to take her as an ally. England had a great deal of talk 
about our being pro-German. She did turn France against us. Only 
my brother's death has softened France. She said we weakened her 
ally at a critical moment. But what right had France to expect that 
we should not weaken the cause of her ally when her ally was op- 
pressing us. 

Q. We were told you took German gold. 

A. We did not take German gold. We took the pennies and six- 
pences of our people. But did not we have a right to take it if we 
had wanted it? Did not France take English gold, and did not 
England take American gold when she could get it. Surely no one 
has a right to speak if we had taken it. But we did not. Surely not 
England, who was borrowing from America. Any nation has a 



214 

right to make alliances when she is fighting against an enemy. It 
is said that we wanted to invite the Germans into Ireland. We did 
not. The only man who ever tried to invite Germans into Ireland 
was Sir Edward Carson. If Germany tried to take Ireland we 
would fight her just as long and just as effectively as we are fighting 
England. Of course it was a lie that we took German money, but 
if we had taken it, what difference would it make? England says 
she wants people to have fair play, but she does not give us fair 
play. If it is right for France to borrow money from England, it 
would be just as right for us to borrow money from Germany, if 
we had got it, but we didn't. Germany would have been glad for 
us to create a revolution in her favor, of course. But we were not 
doing it to please Germany. More than one Irishman has said: 
"England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity." England's difficulty 
has always been Ireland's opportunity, and we are absolutely right 
in taking advantage of that opportunity. The sooner you can get 
that in a common sense way, the better. It was no crime for us to 
take help where we could get it, to make an alliance with anybody 
we wanted to. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was it not raised as a fact that France has 
sometimes been at war with England, and has been glad to help 
along revolutions in England's colonies? 

A. I was going to say that. In 1778 France happened to be at 
war with England, and she wanted to hurt England in any way she 
could, and she acknowledged you as a republic to hurt England, 
and it did. You also wanted, in 1774 and 1775 to appeal to the 
sympathies of the Irish people, and you got it. And I do not think 
America needs to be told of the many Irishmen she has had then 
and since to fight for the freedom of her country. 

And therefore I protest against the statement that I or my fellow 
citizens would choose to ally ourselves with the Central Empires. 
We did not because they would be no good to us. But if we had, 
it would have been no worse than England taking your help, and 
she was very glad to get it, because if she had not got it, she would 
not be victorious today. 

AMERICA HAS FAILED TO ACHIEVE WAR AIMS 

I ask you American people, do you think you have helped de- 
mocracy by entering the war? President Wilson said: "The reasons 
for this war have been so clearly avowed that no man can make a 
mistake by entering it." He said — I do not know whether I am 
stating it exactly: "America has gone to war for the rights and 



215 

liberties of all peoples everywhere under the sun, for the right of 
self-determination for small nations, and for their release from an 
autocratic power." Are we not a people, and are we not under the 
sun somewhere? If you say "all people," you must count us. If 
you say, "the release of small nations from autocratic power," you 
must not leave out Ireland. As America went out for the rights and 
liberties of all peoples everywhere, for liberty and self-determina- 
tion and for the "undictated development of all peoples" (I think 
that was another phrase of President Wilson ) , I ask you, have we 
not rights and liberties and a right to the undictated development 
of our own country? We have our republic, but we have got it in 
spite of England's oppression. 

You people in America have not carried out the policies for which 
you went into the war. You sheathed the sword when England got 
what she wanted. I do not want to hurt you. You have been very 
good to us, and you have given us a chance by this Commission to 
tell the truth about Ireland. But you have not made the world safe 
for democracy. \ou have only made the world safe for a time for 
the British Empire. But I know this. When England begins to 
collar all the coal fields and all the oil fields, and when she begins 
to hamper your navy and your shipping by collaring the coal and 
oil fields of the world, she will not find it as easy to overwhelm 
America with force of numbers as she has found it to overrun Ire- 
land. 

Chairman Howe: The hearings will now be adjourned, — it is 
quarter to one — will now be adjourned until two o'clock. 

2:21 P. M. 

Chairman Howe: We will proceed with the hearing (rapping for 
order). Is Miss MacSwiney here? 

(Miss Mary MacSwiney retakes witness stand.) 

CONFLICT OF ORDERS PREVENTS NATIONAL 
UPRISING 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: When we let out for the noon recess, Miss 
MacSwiney, you had just begun to tell of the happenings of Easter 
Week, 1916. 

The Witness: It was a point made very much of by England that 
the Easter Week insurrection was not an insurrection of the Irish 
nation. That it was only a few extremists. And they pointed to the 
fact that the fighting took place in Dublin only. I had begun to tell 



21C 

you that we had expected help in the shape of arms. We had hoped 
to get some arms to enable us to carry on the fight, because the armb- 
and ammunition of the country did not amount to much. And those 
arms failed us. They did not come. An insurrection had been ar- 
ranged for Easter Monday. 1916. The leader* had counted on get- 
ting the arms the last of the week, on a Good Friday- The ship 
bringing the arms was sunk by the British. They were perfectly 
justified fro^i their point of view in sinking that ship, just as wc 
were justified in bringing it in if we could. However, it was sunk. 
The result of that was that some of the leaders, notably Mr. Mac- 
Neil, thought that the time was not opportune to begin. And though 
the orders had gone out for the whole country for the insurrection 
on Easter Monday, the orders were cancelled at the last moment by 
Mr. MacNeil. Many of the leaders did not agree with the canceling 
of those orders, and I think that some of them thought that Mr. Mac- 
Neil had exceeded his powers and his rights in sending these can- 
cellation orders. One section, the Irish Citizens' Army, was not 
under the control of the Volunteers. That was a labor organization 
chiefly. You have heard of Jim Larkin here, and he and James Con- 
nolly were concerned with the organization of that Citizens' Army. 
They had threatened to go out in any case. The secret history of 
those few days has not been fully published, and the documentary 
evidence in connection with it was largely burned during Easter 
Week. And some of us, even though we were on the inside of Re- 
publican affairs, are not exactly certain of all the orders and counter- 
orders of that week. It ended by only a portion of the Volunteers 
rising in Dublin. They began on Monday morning, according to the 
plan. Mr. MacNeil had sent the order all over Ireland on Sundav 
that the Volunteers were not to rise. An order followed on Monday 
signed by Padraic Pearse and John MacDermott that they wen* t<> 
rise, that the orders were to be kept to. By the time these orders 
reached the outlying districts it was too late. Cork was not in the 
Easter rising. The fact that it was not was a lasting source of grief 
to my brother. Many of the people thought they should have gone 
out, even though they were certain to fail. There were some people, 
I am not sure how many, who accused them of cowardice or funk at 
the last moment. That charge was not justified, and I do not think 
it will be ever made again. But the situation in Cork made it im- 
possible for them to rise. Cork is built in a valley. The order to 
rise did not reach the commandants until Monday evening. By the 
time they could have got their men together every hill in Cork was 
mounted by a huge field gun, the largest piece of artillery they could 
get. Cork is built in a vallev. The British military barracks are on 






217 

the highest hill in the district. By Tuesday night they had a huge 
gun planted on every hill around the city. They could have shelled 
the city in an hour until there was nothing left of it. The Volun- 
teer commanders in Cork knew that. They did not want to order 
the men out to what was absolutely certain slaughter. They realized 
that Dublin was only a first battle in the war, and for the time they 
had to remain inactive. I can speak of personal knowledge of the 
very, very great reluctance with which they came to that decision. 
I can tell you what very few people in Ireland knew at that time or 
even now, that as late as Thursday evening at seven o'clock they had 
made plans to get out of the city into the country districts where they 
could have fought. Cork is not like Dublin, which was suitable for 
street fighting. Cork could not have street fighting. It would have 
been shelled from the hills within an hour. By Thursday evening 
they were trying to call the Volunteers out of the city, and as late 
as Thursday evening at seven o'clock I had orders to put in a fresh 
supply of first aid material in case they were able to manage it. 
They were not able to manage it, but I can testify to the great re- 
luctance with which they finally gave it up. 

BRITISH MILITARY BREAK PLEDGE TO MAYOR 
AND BISHOP OF CORK 

The military in Cork were so certain that they would rise that 
the military commander appealed to the mayor -and the bishop to 
try to get the Volunteers to lay down their arms. If the Volunteers 
showed no signs of giving the military trouble, the military under- 
took not to give them any trouble. Our men would not have any 
negotiations with the British except on equal terms. But they came, 
by the advice of the bishop and the lord mayor, to an understanding, 
as they were assured that a rising in Cork was impossible. The 
understanding was that they would hand over to the bishop and the 
lord mayor of the city the guns, the arms and ammunition that they 
had; that these arms and ammunitions were to remain under the 
charge of the bishop and the lord mayor as joint guarantors that the 
Irish Volunteers would not rise in insurrection, on the one hand; 
and that the military authorities would not capture the guns and 
would not arrest the leaders, on the other. This was a definite 
understanding, a promise made by Colonel East, who was command- 
ing the British forces in Cork. And that promise was given to the 
lord bishop and the lord mayor of the City of Cork. After a lengthy 
discussion the men agreed to accept that, and on Monday night, that 
would be the first of May- they handed their guns over to the care 



218 

of the lord mayor. They were locked up in his offices, and the 
guarantee was given, not a written guarantee in the hands of the 
Volunteers, but the word of the military commander was given to 
the bishop and the lord mayor, as the word of our men was given 
to them, that they would take no further action. That was on Mon- 
day night, and the arms were handed to the lord mayor before mid- 
night. At eight o'clock on Tuesday morning, — at quarter to one, 
let me say first, just three-quarters of an hour after midnight, a 
military party headed by a captain went to the lord mayor and de- 
manded the arms that had been entrusted to him. He said they had 
been given to him as a trustee, and the military had promised not 
to ask for them. He was told that he would be in jail in a very 
short time if he did not give them up. Not being an Irish Republi- 
can at the time, he gave them up. At seven o'clock in the morning 
the arrests began. Practically every Irish Volunteer in the city was 
arrested, and two women were arrested. My brother had left for the 
country early on Tuesday before the arrests began, or before he 
knew of it, and he was out of the city when a party of six policemen 
with loaded rifles came to our house. I was in school at the time, — 
at least, I was not in school at the time, I was in jail, but my sister 
thought I was in school. But they stood around her, and the whole 
six pointed their loaded rifles at her and demanded to know where 
her brother was. She said she would not tell them. They threatened 
and coaxed her, but she gave them no answer. They wanted to know 
if he was upstairs, and she said, "Go and see." She happened to be 
standing with her arms behind her back, and they ordered her to 
put up her hands. She put them up, for she had nothing in them. 
They then wanted to know again if he was upstairs, and she would 
not tell them. And so they went upstairs, but they were all very 
polite, very polite to each other, each one letting the other go first. 
They thought that he might be at the top of the landing with a gun. 
The sergeant finally went first. They found nothing. They came 
down with very relieved faces and went away. We had a little maid 
at the time. They found her in the kitchen and threw her out by 
force, threw her out in the next room against the wall and demanded 
to know where the master was. She did not know. She never knew, 
of course. And they finally went away. 

WHOLESALE ARRESTS AND REARRESTS 

In the meantime they went to the school and arrested me. All 
over the city that day the tension was frightful. Great squads 
of soldiers and police going all over the city, as many as a hun- 



219 

dred and fifty soldiers to arrest one man. Naturally the word 
was taken to the bishop. Men and women were going to the 
house of the bishop and demanding to know what it all meant. 
He got in touch with the military authorities. I think he spoke 
very plainly to them. And finally, although they did not give back 
the arms, Colonel East sent an order to release all the people 
who had been arrested in the city about seven-thirty Tuesday even- 
ing. So we all got out. We did not have very much jail. It was 
about twenty to eight when I was driving down from the jail, 
and about ten minutes afterwards an urgent order came from 
General Maxwell that no one was to be released on any condi- 
tion whatever. But we were gone. The birds had flown. They 
did not take the women back, but they began rearresting the men 
in twos and threes until they had about two thousand of them ar- 
rested and put in jail in England. My brother was arrested in the 
country and taken. We did not know for a long time where he 



MR. ASQUITH'S DUPLICITY 

To show you how they can tell lies: we were very uneasy be- 
cause for over a week we did not have a single word from my 
brother. We knew he had been arrested. Someone had seen him 
brought into Cork at half-past four in the morning, and they were 
taking him up to Cork jail. A few days afterward we learned 
that someone had seen him about five o'clock in the morning re- 
moved from Cork jail. We applied to the governor, but got no 
information where he was. After a question asked in the House 
of Commons as to why these men were not allowed to see their 
relatives, Mr. Asquith, the Prime Minister at the time, replied 
that all the Cork prisoners were allowed to see their friends and 
had fresh air and food and visitors and all other nice things. It 
was utterly false. That appeared on Thursday morning, about the 
thirteenth of May, I think. He had been missing since the third. 
Some of us whose relatives had been taken away and did not 
know their whereabouts went to the general postoffice and sent a 
series of telegrams to Mr. Asquith, and sent him each one his own 
particular story, and told him that our relatives had been taken 
away and we had been denied all information as to where they 
were. We also sent copies of these telegrams to William O'Brien, 
because it was he who asked for information from Mr. Asquith, 
and to Lawrence Ginnell, because he was the only one in the House 
of Commons on whom we could depend to bring out the truth. 



220 

We sent them in great hurry, because there was to be a debate 
in the House of Commons that day on the Irish question. Mr. 
Ginnell later told me that those telegrams created a great sensa- 
tion when read in the House. That was on Thursday. On Satur- 
day morning we all got letters from our friends. That is the 
way. And then when you catch them at it, they correct it and 
say, It is a lie; you are not telling the truth. 

PENAL SERVITUDE AND EXECUTION FOR 
INSURRECTIONISTS 

That was my brother's second term of imprisonment. They 
were all in prison most of the time until Christmas. There was a 
general amnesty at Christmas. But the men who were concerned 
actually in the rising, the men who were in Dublin, were sent most 
of them to penal servitude, those who were not shot. And they were 
not released from prison by the Christmas amnesty. 

SUBSERVIENCE OF SCHOOLS TO ENGLISH 
INFLUENCES 

Mr. Walsh asked me this morning to tell you something about 
education in Ireland. There is a little addition I would like to 
make here. I was teaching in a large secondary school, in one 
of the intermediate schools of which I spoke, in the city at that 
time. As an example of the type of mind engendered by the 
British education in our country, I might tell you that the nuns 
are personally very fond of me. I know that. They highly dis- 
approved of my political opinions, and they were very nervous 
at having them in that exceedingly respectable school. On the 
January preceding the Easter rising, my brother had been arrested 
for making a speech. And a district inspector of police who had 
a child in the school went up to the Reverend Mother and told hei 
I was not a proper person to be teaching in a school like that, and 
I ought to be dismissed. Now, I do not want to say an unneces- 
sarily harsh word about that school. It was my alma mater, and 
I am very attached to it. And the only crime I convict the nuns 
of was cowardice. It is a pretty bad one in my category of crimes. 
But it was absolutely unavoidable in that condition of mind en- 
gendered by the education of the country. It was so fearfully 
disrespectable to be a Sinn Feiner. We are all called Sinn Feiners. 
And Sinn Fein by that time had become Republican. However, 
some time before Easter the Reverend Mother complained of my 



221 

tendencies to make Sinn Feiners of the pupils. I said, "I have 
never mentioned the name Sinn Fein in the class. I am not a 
Sinn Feiner at all. I am a Republican. But I have never told 
the children what I am." And she said, "But at the same time there 
is something there." And she finally brought it out with a great 
burst that I was too Irish. And I asked her if she ever heard of 
an Englishwoman being too English, or a Frenchwoman being too 
French; and it was not a crime for me to be too Irish. Then she 
said, "You must keep to the textbook in teaching history." I 
said, "If I keep to the textbook, the senior girls will fail in the 
examination, because there is not enough in it." That was not 
exactly what she meant, and I told her what she meant. "You 
want me to teach Irish history from the English point of view. I 
would no more do that than as a Catholic I would teach the history 
of the Reformation from the Protestant point of view." And 
whether you are Catholic or Protestant or nothing at all, you can 
perfectly understand that I would not teach the Protestant point 
of view against my own than you would, if you were a Protestant, 
teach the Catholic point of view against your own. Naturally, the 
teaching of all history must be colored by the point of view of the 
country in which it is taught. I think before this war there was 
an idea that history should be wholly colorless; that it should be 
taken from state documents. If there is anything that this past war 
has taught the world it is that of all the lies that it is possible to 
tell, that official documents are the biggest lies. I have friends who 
were in the war who told me exactly how these official documents 
were compiled. It is very interesting for the historian and I don't 
think — 

Chairman Howe: Please keep to the recital of the Irish situation, 
Miss MacSwiney. 

The Witness: I am sorry. Please pull me up if I say things I 
ought not to say. I have said that about the school to show you 
the type of mind that was engendered in our country. The Reverend 
Mother hinted to me that they would have to reduce the staff. I 
think I was expected to take the hint that I was to be the one dis- 
missed, so I said to her, "Now, Mother, I am the senior teacher 
here. Therefore, I take it for granted that I am not the one to be 
dismissed." She could not take it for granted at all. I said, "Why, 
then? Am I incompetent?" And she had to say I was not. I said, 
"Now, look here, if you dismiss me in reducing the staff, it simply 
means that you are dismissing me because I am an Irish Republican. 
You are dismissing me because of my political opinions. If you 
say that, well and good. But I will not permit myself to be dis- 



222 

missed on any other ground." There were three teachers in that 
division of the school. And all three teachers got notice that in 
consequence of changes in the school during the coming summer, 
we could not consider ourselves engaged for the next year. We 
were at liberty to get another post, and they were at liberty to get 
other services. That was the quietest way to get rid of a trouble- 
some person. It does not sound very nice, and I do not want to be 
hard on that particular school, but I am doing that not to hurt 
them, but to show you the type of mind that was engendered by the 
British education in that country. They were afraid — afraid of 
offending the rich people, who were mostly West Britons; afraid 
of offending the police authorities; afraid that anybody connected 
with them might be connected in any way with that very dangerous 
thing called Sinn Fein. When I was arrested on a Tuesday morning 
and released on Tuesday night, I went to school again on Wednesday 
morning. 

EXECUTIONS OF EASTER WEEK MAKE IRELAND 
CONSCIOUSLY REPUBLICAN 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: How is that school about being Republican 
now? 

A. Oh, everyone in Ireland is Republican now. 

Q. Does that include that school? 

A. Yes, of course. In the recent martyrdom of my brother, 
when prayers were being said for him and masses were being said 
for him, all the school children said prayers for him, and I am 
glad to say that that school sent me word through one of the nuns 
that they had done their share. All the children are all right and 
all the nuns are all right. I think there are several old ladies there 
yet who are very much afraid. But they are all right at heart. I 
was deeply grieved at their treatment of me, and still am deeply 
grieved because they did not dismiss me straight out. When they 
found out Easter week had changed the whole of the citizens, and 
there was a revulsion of feeling and indignation in the city because 
I was dismissed, they tried to say that I was not really dismissed; 
that it was a mistake. 

I have introduced this to show you the state of mind of a large 
number of the Irish people in 1916. It was the shooting of the 
leaders of the 1916 movement and the arrest of over two thousand 
people that woke up the ordinary man, who up to that time had been 
a home-ruler, perhaps, to realize that it was the same old fight 
over again in their generation, although they had not realized it up 



223 

lo that time; and that when England began shooting Irishmen, no 
matter what the Irishman's political opinions were, he must be 
right. From 1916 on Ireland became more and more consciously 
Republican in the hearts of the common people. They had, of 
course, been instinctively so. They became consciously so after 
that. 

ELECTIONS PROVE PEOPLE OVERWHELMINGLY 
FOR REPUBLIC 

The first chance they had to give expression to that was in the 
general election of 1918. In that election Sinn Fein or the Repub- 
lican movement swept the country. There were very few con- 
stituencies in which there was a contest. But where there was a 
contest in the whole of Ireland, outside of Ulster, there was only 
one man got in who was a Redmondite, and that man was John 
Redmond's son, who, because of sympathy for his father and be- 
cause of his hold on the people of Waterford, was returned. 

Q. That is exclusive of Ulster? 

A. I am excluding Ulster. In the Parliamentary elections again 
matters were — 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was there a candidate representing the Na- 
tionalists in every county in that election? 

A. Oh, no; very few. There were twenty-five constituencies, I 
think, in which Republicans were elected without any opposition. 

Q. There was very little opposition? 

A. Very little opposition. 

Q. But where there was a contest? 

A. Where there was a contest it was a contest between the Red- 
mondites and the Republicans, and Redmondism was wiped out 
completely, except in Waterford, where it was not Redmondism 
that won, but a feeling for Redmond's son. 

In Ulster the case was rather peculiar. You have at present four 
men representing the Constitutionalist Home Rule Party in Ulster — 
five men. Four of them got in this way. There were eight seats in 
Ulster in which the proportion of, we will say Nationalists, using 
the word Nationalist in its broad sense — Ireland versus England — 
had a majority. But if Sinn Fein and Redmondites and Unionists 
went up, the three-cornered division would probably let the Union- 
ists in. On those seats, upon the advice of Cardinal Logue, there 
was a compromise suggested: that they should divide them equally. 
Our people wanted a much fairer thing than that. Our people 
wanted an election of the Nationalist population held, a kind of a 



224 

plebiscite of the Nationalist population held on the preceding week, 
everyone to vote, and the seats to be given to either the Republican 
or the Redrnondite. according to the votes cast. If that had been 
so, we would have had seven of the eight scats. Consequently the 
Redmondites did not agree to it. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Seven or eight seats in Ulster? 

A. Oh, yes; this does not deal with the contests with the Union- 
ists, but only with the contest between the Republicans and the 
Redmondites. They would not agree to this plebiscite, so it was 
either let them have half the seats or give them to the Unionists. 
I mean the risk would be letting the Unionists slip in. So the people 
agreed to halve them, and that is why you have a few representa- 
tives still of Redmond's party. 

With regard to the general election of 1918, it was 80 per cent. 
Republican. It was claimed by the British Government and by our 
opponents that it did not represent a Sinn Fein election or a Repub- 
lican election, but an anti-parliamentarian election. It was an anti- 
Redmond election rather than a pro-Republican election. And they 
said that ever so many people had got tired of a parliamentary 
policy and were willing to give Sinn Fein a chance. We knew it 
was not so, but of course they had a certain amount of plausibility 
behind their argument. And so it was not until 1919 and 1920 that 
we were able to counter that and prove that it was false by the 
municipal and county elections. It is true that every candidate 
who went up had to take the Republican pledge. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What was that pledge? 

A. "I pledge my allegiance to Dail Eireann and the Parliament 
of Ireland." I do not know the exact words, but it was pledging 
allegiance to the Irish Republican parliament and renouncing every- 
thing English. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Every candidate? 

A. Every candidate, yes, who received Republican support. But 
some said, after the Republican victory in 1918: "Even so, the 
candidates were Republican, but we have people voting for the 
Republican candidates not because they were Republicans, but be- 
cause they were anti-parliamentarian. They were sick of parlia- 
mentarianism." And so when the municipal and county elections 
came and were overwhelmingly Republican, even more so than the 
general elections had been, that argument was killed. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: That was the county and municipal 
election of 1920? 



225 

PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION ACT FAILS TO 
REDUCE REPUBLICAN VICTORIES 

A. Yes. In spite of the fact that in the meantime proportional 
representation laws had been passed by the House of Commons for 
Ireland for the purpose of spoiling the Republican elections and 
getting in candidates who would not otherwise have got in. Our 
people had from 1905 advocated proportional representation. And 
so when it was passed by the House of Commons it was opposed, 
not by us, because we welcomed it, but by the Carsonites. And 
the result showed that they had good reason to be afraid of it. 
For the first time we have Irish members in the Belfast corporation. 
We have Irish Republican members in county councils that before 
.were wholly Unionist. We have won all Over the country, and have 
lost nothing. Probably in the south and west there are Unionist 
members on the councils who might not have been there otherwise: 
but we have no fear whatever of Unionists getting on, providing 
they get on fairly and in proper proportion. We do not dread 
proportional representation, and you have a proof of that by what 
I have given you and what you get in the daily newspapers. Pro- 
portional representation was passed to ruin the Irish Republican 
elections. But the only people who opposed it were the Carsonites. 

I told you I would say something more about my brother's activi- 
ties. I don't think there is anything else about the present situation 
before I come to that. 

OUR REVOLUTIONARY WAR, AND NOT CIVIL WAR, 

ANALAGOUS TO IRELAND'S RIGHT TO BREAK 

UNION WITH ENGLAND 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Before that, while it is a very well-known 
subject in England, one of the Commission has asked you to briefly 
sketch the Act of Union, it being claimed by many persons that 
there is some parallel between the efforts of certain states in the 
American union to secede and the efforts of the Irish people to get 
their independence. Do you understand what I mean? 

A. Oh, quite, Mr. Walsh. 

Q. Give the date of the Act of Union and what attitude the Irish 
people take toward it. 

A. I would like to deal first with the suggestion that there is 
any parallel between the fight between your north and south against 
secession. If you want any parallel you will have to go back to 
1776, and not to 1862. That is the parallel, and not the war for 



226 

secession. And I would like to say in connection with this that you 
had far less reason to secede from your mother country than we 
had, because she was never our mother country. We are a distinct 
race. (Continued applause.) 

Chairman Howe: Please let the witness go on without interrup- 
tion. 

The Witness: I am sure you will not mind doing that, because 
I am sure I am taking up much of the Commission's valuable time. 

We are a different people. As I told you this morning, they 
tried to kill our language and make us forget it. But you were 
the same people, many of you. But you were not going to permit 
them to take away your liberties, and so you set up a republic of 
your own. That is the only liberty. And you became a colony 
naturally in the first place. Your liberty was never filched from, 
you. Our liberty was filched from us. 

PARALLEL BETWEEN SECESSION OF ULSTER AND 
SOUTHERN STATES 

A parallel with your war of secession is the parallel between 
Ulster and the rest of Ireland today. And if you maintain that you 
were justified in waging a long war of five years which nearly 
broke President Lincoln's heart, if you were justified in fighting 
that war rather than let a part of your country secede, then you 
must admit that we are justified in fighting for a century, if need 
be, rather than let a part of Ireland secede. The parallel is the 
war between north and south as far as Ulster and the rest of Ireland 
are concerned. But between England and Ireland your Revolution- 
ary War is the parallel. 

ACT OF UNION SUPPRESSED IRISH PARLIAMENT 

The Act of Union was signed by King George III in 1801. He 
was your enemy as well as ours. Ireland had always had her own 
parliament. But Poyning's Law of 1494, and what is known as the 
Sixth of George I, passed in 1719, I think — I am not certain, but 
it was the sixth act of George I's reign, anyway — those two laws 
destroyed all the powers of the Irish Parliament. Poyning's Law 
said that no laws could be made in Ireland or for Ireland without 
the consent of the king and the privy council of England. That 
was so that no law for the benefit of Ireland, Irish commerce, or 
Irish trade could be passed, unless the English king and the English 
council were quite convinced that it would not interfere with any- 



227 

thing they wanted. The Sixth of George I went a step further, and 
declared that all laws passed in England were binding on Ireland. 
That distinction is quite clear. The first said that all laws passed 
in Ireland must be approved in England. The second one, passed 
nearly three centuries later, said that all laws passed in England 
would become operative in Ireland. And thus those two laws 
ruined all of the power of the Irish Parliament. The 1782 move- 
ment followed very largely from the example of your War of Inde- 
pendence. Ireland could not see why she could not follow your 
example. But just as in the beginning of your war you had no 
idea of seceding from your mother country, so those in the Irish 
movement of 1782 had no idea of breaking connection with the 
English crown. They wanted what they called "the King, Lords, 
and Commons of Ireland." They wanted an Irish Parliament sepa- 
rate from that of England, but the English king was to be the ruler 
in both countries. After a great deal of work that was passed in 
1782. But the Act of Union, definitely renouncing all power of 
Ireland to pass laws, was passed in 1801. 

Arthur Griffith has often had this sneer thrown at him, that he 
wanted to create another Grattan's Parliament. But this is not true. 
That parliament was elected on a purely Protestant franchise. Its 
executive was appointed, not elected. And still, in spite of those 
defects, when the parliament turned its attention to Irish trade and 
Irish development, they increased the prosperity of the country to 
such an extent in the space of twelve years that the English govern, 
ment called a halt immediately, and said, "This will never do." And 
so Pitt began to put his clever mind to work to see what could be 
accomplished. 

IRELAND REFUSES SOLDIERS TO CRUSH AMERI- 
CAN REVOLUTION 

To go back a little bit. When your war was on with England, 
and England's plan was to raise an army in Ireland to send over to 
fight you, Ireland declined. She also wanted to bring in about three 
or four thousand Hessians to guard the Irish coast, while she was 
sending over an Irish army to defeat the Americans. The Irish 
people said "No, thank you. You can send your Hessians where 
you like. We are not going to fight Americans and we are going 
to take charge of our own coast." But there was no anti-English 
movement there at all. They found Ireland so strong on that that 
they were obliged to give in. Consequently, you got the Hessians 
and we stayed at home. 



228 

PROSPERITY OF IRELAND UNDER GRATTAN'S 
PARLIAMENT 

Now, we wanted free trade in Ireland. And when the Volunteers 
were formed and got their power they began to say they could not 
see why Ireland should not have the right to trade abroad if she 
wanted to. She was not allowed to. And so she demanded free 
trade — the right to trade where she liked. And there is a very 
famous march of the Volunteers in Dublin when they took up their 
position before the House of Parliament with a cannon trained on 
the House, and they put a motto on the cannon, "Free Trade or 
This." I think there is a very striking parallel there between your 
position in 1774 and this. You wanted free trade and you wanted 
the right to settle your own taxation, and not to pay taxation where 
you had no representation. That act resulted in Grattan's Parlia- 
ment. It had its disabilities, but it doubled Ireland's trade in a 
short time, and made it very prosperous. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Miss MacSwiney, just what years are you 
talking about? 

A. That was in 1782. The Parliament lasted until 1800. But it 
really was effective only about ten years, because intrigues destroyed 
its power. 

Q. The prosperity you mentioned was during that period? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did building develop as well as trade? 

A. Yes. But you must remember that the Irish people at that 
time were ignorant, and being ignorant, they were poor. The 
Catholics, then as now, were in the majority. But the Catholics 
did not have a vote. The mass of the population had no represen- 
tation whatever in the government. Grattan and Flood and Hely 
Hutchinson were all of them Protestants. No Catholic could sit in 
the House of Parliament. It was a crime punishable by death to 
follow 7 a Catholic service. No Catholic could own land or lend 
money on land. No Catholic could lend money and take in turn 
a mortgage on land, because that would mean that the land might 
revert to the hands of Catholics, which was against the law. No 
Catholic could own a horse worth more than five pounds. If he 
did, any Protestant could come up to him on the streets and say, 
"I would like that horse. Here is five pounds. You may sell it 
to me." An incident like that happened with a great-granduncle 
of my own. He was a priest, and had a valuable horse, because 
he had long distances to go to see sick people. One day he was 
held up bv a terrible scoundrel who was well known in the neigh- 



229 

borhood, and he was ordered to dismount from the horse and turn 
it over. Instead, he put spurs to the horse and got away. But he 
knew that would save him only for a few hours, so he went to the 
Protestant minister, who was a great friend of his, and explained 
to him. And he said, "That is easy. You give me the horse — sell 
it to me, and I will loan it back to you." And he did, and kept 
the horse. And that shows another thing — the extraordinarily 
friendly relations between ministers of religion of different faiths 
when the country was in such a state that a Catholic did not dare 
to show his face on his own street. 

The franchise, then, was restricted. Only Protestants could sit 
in Parliament. But they were Irishmen, and they believed that the 
development of their country was necessary. Grattan's Parliament 
had its disabilities, but it was an honest attempt to develop Ireland 
for the Irish. And one of the first things we shall do, I hope, 
when we have cleared out the army of occupation, will be to take 
up the bones of Grattan, who is buried in Westminster at the feet 
of Castlereagh, one of the most infamous villains in history, and 
we will take them back to Ireland. 

ACT OF UNION MADE POSSIBLE DESTRUCTION OF 
IRISH INDUSTRIES 

Pitt decided that the Irish Parliament was inconsistent with the 
rights of England and that it was injuring English trade. I would 
recommend to you to read a book by Mrs. Stopford Green, "The 
Making of Ireland and Its Undoing," which will tell you how 
England has deliberately destroyed Irish industries whenever they 
conflicted with her own. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do you know, Miss MacSwiney, the name of 
the book which has been published which is a compilation of all 
the statutes passed by the British Parliament hostile to Irish indus- 
tries, and also indicates the speeches made on that subject in the 
English Parliament? 

A. No, I do not, but you can find out, I think, from Mr. Fawcitt. 

Q. I understand there is such a book that contains all the hostile 
statutes and the purpose of them and the speeches made about them. 

A. I am sorry I haven't it with me. But we are now living 
history so fast that the events of a few years ago seem very far 
away indeed. But if you want to know the purposes of England 
in Ireland, the book of which I spoke, "The Grammar of Anarchy," 
containing the statements of Sir Edward Carson, is quite sufficient, 
and if you read it you will understand why an Irish Republican 



230 

got a term of imprisonment for having it in his possession as sedi- 
tious literature. 

There are many instances of English statutes destroying Irish 
industries. One of the statutes of William III was against the Irish 
woollen industry. It was better wool than the English wool and it 
was quite as cheap. Consequently it got a better market on the 
Continent. There is actually a petition in the English archives from 
the merchants of England to William III asking him point blank 
to destroy the woollen industry in Ireland. They give their reason: 
We cannot sell our wool because the Irish wool is better. It sounds 
very nice. Nowadays they do it more diplomatically. William 
promised them that on the opening of Parliament he would see what 
he could do about that. And he did. He put a tax of four shillings 
a pound on Irish wool. And of course you cannot expect a French 
merchant to pay that much tax on Irish wool when English wool is 
much cheaper and only a bit inferior. 

ENGLISH POLICY IN IRELAND "DIVIDE AND 
CONQUER" 

And then Pitt began his little tricks. By this time the Irish 
Volunteers began to admit Catholics to their ranks, and Catholics 
and Protestants all over the country began to work harmoniously 
in the ranks of the Volunteers. At this time there was a dispute 
between Flood and Grattan as to whether they would work first for 
Catholic emancipation or work first for the development of the 
franchise and the solidification of the liberty they had won. They 
disagreed on that point. Grattan was for Catholic emancipation. 
But as a Catholic I would say that Flood was right. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Both Flood and Grattan were Protestants? 

A. Oh, yes, they were both Protestants. Catholics had no say 
whatever for thirty-five years afterwards. Another Protestant, the 
Earl of Charlemont, was commander-in-chief of the Volunteers. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Was there not a certain class of Protestants 
disqualified? 

A. Oh, yes. Everyone had to be a forty-shilling freeholder in 
order to vote. There were large masses of the population excluded, 
even though they were Protestants. 

Q. Did Nonconformists vote? 

A. Yes. When Catholics finally got the vote, in 1829, there was 
a rather interesting thing in connection with that. Up to that time 
it had been forty-shilling freeholders who were allowed to vote. 
Immediately there was a nice little addition passed. It was not 



231 

• 

forty-shilling freeholders any longer, but ten-pound freeholders. 
The result was to knock out of voting a large part of the Catholic 
population that did not have ten pounds. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: It was true all over the world at 
that time that there was a property qualification. 

A. Yes, but the forty-shilling law held in England. The ten- 
pound law applied only to Ireland, you see. 

The Earl of Charlemont was commander-in-chief of the Volun- 
teers. He was a very good man, no doubt, but he was a very timid 
man in some respects. He was timid very largely in being afraid 
of new innovations. He was afraid of Catholic emancipation. And 
Pitt worked on his horror and dread of Catholic emancipation until 
he split the Volunteers over it. Always the same British policy — 
divide and conquer. The Volunteers split over the Earl of Charle- 
mont's resignation. The others wanted to keep the Volunteers 
intact and have Catholics admitted. The Earl of Charlemont would 
not have the Catholics admitted, and the Volunteers split over that. 
The Earl of Charlemont was a timid man who was afraid, even at 
that time, that the pope would come over and do terrible things 
in Ireland. Having split the Volunteers, the next thing was to dis- 
band them. When Charlemont had them disbanded, those who 
would not disband formed themselves into United Irishmen, a defi- 
nite body announcing a Republican policy and declaring for the 
Irish Republic. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What year was that? 

A. 1795, 1796, and 1797. 

IRELAND'S RIGHT TO SECURE HELP FROM 
ENGLAND'S ENEMIES 

They sent to America for American help and sympathy, and they 
sent to France, and Napoleon was thinking about helping us. But 
all the great powers have been willing to help us only when it is 
for their own interests. I hope America will be an exception to that 
rule. France was at war with England, and she sent over an expe- 
dition to Ireland, just as Germany would have gladly sent over an 
expedition to Ireland in the present war. Ireland would have wel- 
comed the Germans just as she did the French. She had a right to 
get any help she could in the struggle with the enemy. Not one of 
your people would deny that, if you would put justice before every- 
thing else. Many people are afraid of the truth. There are a great 
many good people who will tell the truth and nothing but the truth. 
But the whole truth sometimes frightens them. And I have been 



232 

told that I am likely to alienate a great deal of American sympathy 
by acknowledging the plain truth that we would have taken German 
help if we had got it in 1916. If that is so, I ask Americans of 
that opinion to try and let their sense of justice get the upper hand 
of their prejudices. The fact that the person who might have helped 
us was an enemy of their — 

Senator Walsh: They were not an enemy of ours then. 

The Witness: No, not an enemy of yours then. We were not 
pro-German in the sense that we wanted Germany instead of Eng- 
land. We were not pro-German in the sense that we wanted Ger- 
many to dominate Europe. If Germany had treated us as England 
has treated us, she would have got the same treatment that we are 
giving England. I do not want to be misunderstood, and I am not 
going to purchase your sympathy by the sacrifice of one iota of 
the truth. The truth is just that. We were pro-Irish always. If in 
order to help our country an alliance with any other country is 
necessary, we were perfectly justified in forming that alliance. We 
would be sorry if that alliance would alienate anybody with whom 
we want to be friendly. Ireland would always want to be allied 
with France rather than Germany, because France was near us for 
many years and Germany was England's first cousin, say what you 
will. Our natural inclination was to sympathize with France. But 
if we could have got Germany as our ally in our war with England, 
we would have taken her. I must say that because I don't want 
to be afraid of the truth, and I don't want to purchase any sympathy 
by denying the truth. 

Chairman Howe: We were at the Act of Union. 

ENGLISH ATROCITIES PROVOKE UPRISING OF 1798 
AS EXCUSE FOR ACT OF UNION 

The Witness: The Act of Union was passed in that way. First, 
the Volunteers were alienated from each other. Having alienated 
them, they were suppressed. A fresh supply of Hessians were 
brought over and let loose on the country. I cannot dare to tell 
you of the horrors that were committed by those Hessians and the 
English yeomen in our own country. 

Q. In 1798? 

A. Yes, in 1798. When England dares to tell you of the atroci- 
ties of other countries, she is simply dishing up some of her own 
atrocities in Ireland, or perhaps in Egypt and India also. 

Now, at that time all the Irish Volunteers who were willing to 
be Irish first, formed themselves into the secret society of the United 



233 

Irishmen. It had to be a secret society, when if it were known to 
be in existence every member of it would be killed on the spot. 
They formed their society in secret and then entered into the '98 
insurrection for a republic. This was exactly what Pitt wanted. 
He wanted an insurrection in order to smash the growing liberty of 
the people and give him an excuse for the Union. History is re- 
peating itself today. In order to get that insurrection, which the 
people did not want, because they were not ready for an insurrec- 
tion, he instituted a system of horrors similar to those of the Black- 
and-Tans today. The English yeomen and Hessians were just like 
the Black-and-Tans today. Devastations, lootings, murders, and 
burnings took place all over the country to exasperate the people 
into insurrection before the people were ready for it. That insur- 
rection followed, and the result was that the Act of Union was 
passed. 

IDENTICAL TACTICS OF LLOYD GEORGE TODAY 

You have the same thing being done in Ireland today. Lloyd 
George wants to get the Irish people into the open again so he can 
shoot them down. I believe that their prime motive in letting my 
brother die was just that. Our secret service, you know, has not 
clone badly. They have gotten a lot of information about the 
enemy's plans. We know that today they want the Volunteers in 
Ireland to come out into the open. And they thought that since 
my brother had the confidence and affection of the Volunteers of 
Cork, that if they let him die, the Volunteers would lose their heads 
and come out into the open, and then they could shoot them down. 

THE ACT OF UNION PASSED BY SMALL MINORITY 
WITH FRAUD AND PERJURY 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Might we not close the question that one 
of the members of the Commission has asked about, the Act of 
Union, when it was passed, and what the circumstances were? 

A. Well, I want to give you the exact particulars of the passing 
of the Union, and I will just recapitulate what the Parliament was 
at that time. It was purely Protestant. It was made up of Protes- 
tant landlords from England — placemen. As Miss Addams has 
just said, the franchise was not democratic anywhere in the world 
at that time, and I do not think you had any in America. They had 
in England, as in Ireland, too, what used to be called pocket 
boroughs. That is, there were certain districts which returned 



234 

parliamentary members where there was really no population at 
all. There was one district in Ireland, a pocket borough in the 
possession of a West Briton of that day — that is to say, a man whose 
interests were centered in England. In that particular district there 
was a public house and a little hamlet of about ten houses, two 
of which were inhabited by Protestants. Only two people in that 
hamlet had the vote, because they were the only Protestants. And 
they returned two members to Parliament. There were other 
boroughs in which there were a half dozen houses represented by 
two or three members. 

Q. Senator Walsh: This was the Irish parliament? 

A. Oh, yes. But the same thing held true in England. 

Q. You are explaining the make-up of the Parliament that 
passed the Union? 

A. Yes, and I am explaining how it was that a Parliament 
apparently composed of Irishmen passed the Act of Union. I have 
told you that this Parliament was made up of Irish landlords and 
English placemen — that is to say, a man who had performed some 
service for the King, and was given land in Ireland, and was there- 
fore entitled to sit in the Irish House of Parliament. But nobody 
would call him an Irishman! That Parliament, great as was the 
work it did, was largely composed of English placemen, and the 
Patriotic Party was small from the beginning. The Patriotic Party 
was the Grattan and Flood party. That Patriotic Party was in- 
creased, because even these placemen, when they got land in Ireland, 
wanted the land to be as prosperous as it could. And so, unless 
they got orders to vote against a measure from the people who gave 
them their places, they generally voted to help Irish industries. But 
that was the composition of the Parliament. You can see that it 
voiced only the minority of the people, because Catholics had no 
representation at all. In the second place, it voiced only a small 
minority of that minority. And since there was open voting, no 
man who had a vote dared vote against his landlord. If he did, 
then he lost his holding at once. If you quite grasp that, you see 
it was quite easy to corrupt a parliament of that kind. Pitt began 
by giving a good many placemen the right to hold land in Ireland. 
It might be only a few acres: that made no matter; they were land- 
owners. Then he got these placemen to buy up all the pocket 
boroughs. You had, we will say, a borough there which contained 
nobody, but returned two members to Parliament. These were sold 
for fifty thousand pounds, sixty thousand pounds, or ten thousand 
pounds only, if they were small ones. But they were openly sold. 
The transaction of the buying and selling of seats can be found in 



235 

certain documents, even to the present day. And anybody who 
will take the trouble to read the life and letters of Lord Castlereagh, 
which is published in six volumes, I believe, can see how openly 
they boasted of the buying and selling of parliamentary seats. 
There is a poem in Ireland that begins: "How did they pass the 
Union? By forgery and fraud; by perjury and corruption of every 
kind." I do not know the rest of it. And when I emphasize that 
point, I want to emphasize with it that it was not the Irish people 
who sold their Parliament. The Irish people, the bulk of them, 
had no voice in their country at all. The majority of the Protes- 
tants in the country, who had no franchise, would not have done 
that. 

Now, suppose that tomorrow morning you had a Congress who 
were in English pay and under English influence. I am only taking 
that as a supposition. You may be dominated by men under Eng- 
lish influence, perhaps, because they have their roots in the May- 
flower; but they are not in England's pay. But these were men 
placed in the Irish parliament to vote for what England wanted 
them to vote for, and they carried out the contract. Suppose that 
Congress tomorrow passed a vote by a majority handing you over 
and deciding that you would have a union with England, and that 
the English king was to be your king again. Or suppose that it 
passed a vote handing you over to Germany. I do not think the 
majority of the American people could possibly be said to desire 
a union with England or Germany under those circumstances. Yet 
these are the circumstances under which England got the Act of 
Union passed. She bought up all the pocket boroughs and placed 
sufficient men in the Irish Parliament to pass the Act of Union. 
And that was how the Act of Union was passed. When England 
says, "The Irish people passed the Act of Union and wanted to be 
united with us," go and tell her to read history — read Lecky, who 
certainly is not an Irishman. Froude, the historian, will tell the 
truth. Gladstone himself says it is the blackest stain on England's 
history, the Act of Union. 

ENGLISH DEBT SADDLED ON IRELAND BY FRAUD 

And even then they did not keep their word. When they passed 
the Union they made a solemn promise that the English and Irish 
exchequers were to be kept separate. The reason was that Ireland 
had a national debt of two and one-half million pounds. England 
had a national debt of over two hundred million pounds. Those 
seem very small sums in today's computations. After the Act of 



236 

Union in 1801, Ireland's debt was twenty-one million pounds. 
Where did it get up to that sum? She bribed these men, England 
did, in the House of Parliament to pass the Union, and then she 
paid the bribes out of Irish money. And then she promised that 
the exchequers would be separate. In 1817 the English national 
debt, owing to the Napoleonic Wars, had gone up to something like 
four hundred fifty million pounds. The Irish national debt had 
gone up, I think, to something like twenty-five million. And Eng- 
land suggested that it would be very nice for Ireland if they amalga- 
mated their exchequers. The Irishmen representing Ireland in the 
English Parliament at that time did not think it would be nice for 
Ireland to saddle Ireland with that debt. But of course they were 
outvoted. So the two exchequers were amalgamated. One clause 
of the Act of Union was that they should not be amalgamated. But 
they were amalgamated as soon as it suited England. From that 
time to the present day Ireland has been in the control of England. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Grattan and his party then opposed the Act 
of Union? 

A. Oh, yes; absolutely. 

Q. Was it just before the Act of Union that Grattan was carried 
into the House of Parliament on his sick bed to make his protest? 

A. Yes, he was carried in, practically a dying man, and made an 
eloquent protest against it. 

Q. What was the vote? Was it close? 

A. I cannot recall it. It was close. 

FINANCIAL COMPETENCY OF IRELAND PROVED 
BY REPORT OF ENGLISH COMMISSION 

I would like to say another thing about financial matters of that 
period. Before the war, while the Home Rule bill was being dis- 
cussed, we were told that Ireland could not possibly govern herself. 
As it was, she could not pay her own way; that England had to 
subsidize her to the extent of half a million a year; and what would 
she do if she were her own mistress and England would not be able 
to subsidize her? This was one of the economic points brought up 
against Irish Home Rule. Ireland never got a subsidy of half a 
million a year from England. She got it one year, and I will tell 
you how it happened. The old-age pension was passed, giving to 
each old person over seventy several shillings a week. 

Q. Chairman Howe: This was quite recent? 

A. Yes, it was quite recent, but I must go back to give you an 
idea. You can get from reliable statistics an idea of how many 



237 

old people in the country there ought to be. Owing to England's 
misgovernment of the country and the way she had impoverished 
it, the proportion of old people in Ireland was perfectly abnormal. 
All the young men and women had gone out of the country. In- 
deed, their emigration was encouraged and subsidized by England. 
In consequence, the proportion of old people was much greater than 
it was in any other country. The result was that that year there 
was a deficit of a half million, and England used that one year to 
say that she was subsidizing the Irish exchequer to the extent of 
half a million pounds a year. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What year was that? 

A. That was 1912, I think. 
' When the Home Rule Bill became an issue of practical politics, 
they wanted to adjust the financial relations between the two coun- 
tries, and consequently there was a commission appointed by the 
King to inquire into the financial condition of Ireland from 1817 
— that was the date the exchequers were combined — to 1908. That 
was about one hundred years. This was known as the Childers 
Commission, presided over by the uncle of the present Erskine 
Childers. It was an English commission appointed by the King. 
They went into all the statistics from 1817 to 1908. They pub- 
lished their statistics. That can be found in all the blue books. I 
am giving you only the results now. They found that from that 
period Ireland had paid all her own expenses, every single penny — 
all the expenses, including the army and navy expenses in Ireland, 
which is not really an Irish expense. She had covered the whole 
of it, and had in addition paid three hundred sixty-nine million 
pounds into the English exchequer. So that during the period when 
we were supposed to be an impoverished country, we had paid three 
hundred sixty-nine millions into the English treasury. 

Q. Chairman Howe: That was from income taxes, excise duties, 
and so forth? 

A. Yes, all the income of the country, after the expenses were 
paid. And yet England has the impertinence to say that Ireland is 
a bankrupt country! Those facts are given by the Parliamentary 
Commission which began sitting in 1908 and reported and gave its 
findings in 1911. And remember what we had been through during 
that time — the Tithe War, the Fenian movement, the Land Wars, 
and all those experiences. We had been through the terrible period 
of the famine. And yet all that expense was paid for by Ireland, 
and that three hundred sixty-nine million pounds left over. I think 
that when we send out the army of occupation, we are entitled to 
get back that three hundred sixty-nine million pounds. 



238 

Senator Walsh : Let us get ours first. 

The Witness: Yes, we will forgive her every penny of it if she 
will only take out her army and let us alone. 

I would like to suggest that the first relief ship that came to 
relieve the distress of America came from Ireland. 



BENEFICIAL EFFECTS OF LAND ACTS WRESTED 
FROM ENGLAND 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: You might discuss, while we are on this point, 
some of the great benefit that has been given to the people of Ire- 
land by allowing them to purchase their land. 

Q. Chairman Howe: When you discuss that, will you not discuss 
that land levy, please? How much alien landlordism still exists, 
how the people were allowed to purchase land, and so forth? 

A. I will do my best, but I cannot be very accurate on per- 
centages. The landlord question was very vital to us. While it was 
a sectional war, yet the goal all the time was freedom, and therefore 
those of you who have gone into the study of history a bit, just 
take a broad view of that. It was necessary to get it done, and we 
do not worry very much about statistics. But I will do my best. 

The land acts have been very beneficial to the country. But they 
were not passed by England to benefit the country. They were 
passed by the campaign in Ireland of Parnell and the Land League, 
in the early eighties, I believe. That part of history has not been 
written yet, at least not very fully. I have never read it, at least. 
I cannot give you full details, but this, at all events, is the outline 
of it. When Parnell carried on his Constitutional Movement, he 
felt that it was very necessary to get the land for the people. The 
farmers could do nothing, because if there was an adverse vote in 
the district against a landowner's plans or against England, the 
farmers all got notice of ejectment. They had no security of tenure 
for their lands. It certainly was a wise move for the people to get 
the land tenure fixed. But England never gave those land acts as 
an act of justice. When the Fenians blew up Clerkenwell prison, 
Gladstone took it into his head in 1871 that there was something 
behind the movement, and he had better do something for those 
people. I could not give the details of that Act, but I will come 
to the last Act, the Wyndham Act, which has been very beneficial. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What date? 

A. In 1903, I think. That Act has been very beneficial. It has 
enabled the farmers to buy out their land. They could pay rent 






239 

for twenty or twenty-five years, and at the end of that time their 
land was their own. 

Q. Senator Walsh: They paid so much on the principal as well 
as the interest? 

A. Yes. Immediately that Act was passed, the farmers started 
to improve their land. They did not do it before, because they 
had no security of tenure. Do you know, in that period if a mother 
put a clean pinafore on her child, she had her rent raised from 
two to ten pounds a year. And any woman would say, "Is it not 
better for a child to have a dirty pinafore than to have the rent 
raised?" And that is why you hear the Irish described as a lazy, 
dirty people sometimes. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did that apply to the whole country? 
A. Yes, to Ulster just as much as the rest. That Land Act gave 
the people the right to purchase their farms. The instant the farm- 
ers could purchase, they went on improving and improving and 
improving. Why? Because they knew they were' doing that for 
their sons and their daughters, and they knew they would not be 
thrown out of it next week. If a man put a new paling up around 
his field, he knew that his rent would go up several pounds the 
next week, and consequently the paling was not put up. If too 
many improvements were made, the farmer could be ejected and 
lose them all. But the moment the farmers got their security, they 
improved their farms. And consequently you have a good many 
prosperous farms all over Ireland today. 

Q. How many farms have been converted in that way up to 
today? Two-thirds of them? 
A. I don't know. Perhaps. 
Senator Walsh: It is not as much as that. 
Q. Chairman Howe: And it has led to improvements? 
A. Yes. But the buildings! Some of them are very ugly. 
They do not build their houses beautiful. I wish we had a law to 
make them. At all events, the houses are comfortable, well built, 
and much better than the old unhygienic detached buildings. 

Q. How prosperous is the agricultural population of Ireland 
today? 

A. Of course, the agricultural population benefited by the war, 
as all agricultural populations did. They got high prices for their 
crops, as all of them did. Some of them were unpatriotic enough 
to sell too much of the country's food, and some of them had to 
be stopped. I do not know whether you know of the incident that 
happened in Dublin when the Volunteers stopped the exportation 
of food because they were sending too much of it away. A gentle- 



240 

man in this country now, Mr. Lynch, was our food controller at the 
time, and he ordered that no more pigs should be exported. But 
the people did not think that the Irish government would have to 
be obeyed. There was a large consignment of pigs going off to 
England one night, and the food controller ordered them to be 
stopped. The pigs were taken off and turned into an abattoir and 
slaughtered, and the price was paid to the owner. That had to be 
done in a summary fashion, but it was a necessary act of govern- 
ment. 

ENGLAND PLACES EMBARGO ON BEST IRISH PORT 

Q. There have been a number of statements made about eco- 
nomic embargoes on Ireland by the British government. Can you 
tell us anything about them? 

A. I know they have put an embargo on everything they could. 
They have put an embargo on our best port, the port of Queens- 
town. Once Queen Victoria visited us, and the sycophantic council 
of that day (for then it was only that kind they could get into the 
council) ordered in her honor that the port should be called 
Queenstown. But we do not recognize it as Queenstown. I would 
like our friends in America to get into the habit of calling it Cove, 
the Irish name for it. 

MONEY ADVANCED TO FARMERS UNDER LAND 
ACTS NOT AN ENGLISH GIFT 

There was a question about one hundred million pounds loaned 
to farmers in Ireland. That one hundred million pounds was very 
beneficial, but I would like you to understand that the security 
given by the farmers was quite adequate, and that the people who 
are paying the money are Irish. It was advanced by England for 
the time being, but it is Ireland that is paying the debt. But do 
not let them hypnotize you into believing that that money was given 
by England, for it was not. England and France borrowed huge 
sums from America during the war, and they borrowed it without 
giving you security. But you do not say that you have given them 
a present of all their war debt. And this loan is very largely paid 
back already, and paid back out of Irish money. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: And it was paid back to absentee land- 
lords and those who have succeeded to their estates, was it not? 

A. Yes. And there is a very large number of farms where the 
payments have been completed, and that money has all gone back 



241 

to England. I believe the great bulk of that money has been already 
paid back. 

Q. Chairman Howe: To what extent has alien landlordism pre- 
vailed as it did in the Hungry Forties? 

A. Not much. There are very few big landlords today. They 
may spend a part of the year in England or abroad, but generally 
those that are left spend a part of the year in Ireland. The alien 
landlord of the early nineteenth century has gone. There are very 
few of them left now. 

Q. That question does not figure at all any more? 

A. No, not much any more. 

Now, about the embargoes. I wish I had Mr. Fawcitt here. He 
has all that on his fingertips and could give it better than I. 

Senator Walsh: He is coming, I believe. 

The Witness: Will you ask him, then? 

Chairman Howe: I did not know but what you are familiar with 
the industrial issues. 

The Witness: I am, but I cannot give you exact figures as he 
could. 

ORGANIZATION OF REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT 
FOLLOWS ELECTION VICTORY 

Q. Senator Walsh: Miss MacSwiney, I would like to have you 
give us for the record just when there was organized in Ireland the 
de facto Republican government, who organized it, how long the 
Parliament continued to meet in the open, when it began to meet 
secretly, and if it is meeting now, how long it will continue. 

A. I would like to answer the last question first, because it is 
meeting and will continue to do so. 

Q. I would like to get in the record how much of local govern- 
ment there is and how it is functioning, and if it will continue to 
function. 

A. The Republic was declared in 1916, but for two years there 
was no government to function, until the general election of 1918. 

Q. In other words, you made your declaration of independence 
in 1916, but it took you two years to get your government organized 
so that it could function openly? 

A. Exactly. There were seven Irish Volunteer leaders in the 
Dublin General Postoffice on Easter Monday in 1916, who in the 
name of the Republican Army declared Ireland a free and inde- 
pendent Republic. They were Padraic Pearse, Thomas Clarke, 



242 

John MacDermott, Connolly, Kent, Plunkett, and MacDonagh, and 
they were all executed for it afterwards. 

Q. Chairman Howe: They were executed for that offense — for 
signing your declaration of independence? 

A. Yes, that was the chief thing for which they were executed. 
Q. Senator Walsh: The elections took place in 1918? 
A. Yes. And immediately after the general elections the Re- 
publican Parliament got busy. 

Q. Were the members of that Republican Parliament the Re- 
publican members who were elected to the British Parliament from 
the boroughs or constituencies in Ireland? 
A. Yes. 

Q. So that upward of seventy-five men who received a majority 
as Republican members of the British Parliament at London from 
Ireland, these men met to form the Irish de facto Government? 
A. Right, quite right. 

Q. How many altogether were elected from Irish constituencies 
to the British Parliament? 
A. One hundred and three. 

Q. How many of that number met in Dublin, or wherever they 
met afterwards, to organize the Republican Government of Ireland? 
A. I think that at the very first meeting of Dail Eireann there 
were only 37, for all the others were in jail. 

Q. How many joined in the call? I want it for the record. 
A. I think it was 37. 
Q. How many went to England? 

A. None of the Republicans went to England. The only Irish 
who went were the Redmondites and the Carsonites. 

Q. It was alleged in America that sixty or seventy or so did 
not go to the British Parliament, and joined, either de facto or in 
person, to the call for an independent Parliament. 

A. Yes. You see, there were seventy-five members elected, but 
some of them were elected from two or three constituencies. Presi- 
dent de Valera was elected from three constituencies. 

Q. How many constituencies were represented at the first meet- 
ing, either by those present in person or in jail? 

A. I suppose it would be about sixty-nine men, but the con- 
stituencies represented were seventy-five. 

Q. So that seventy-five constituencies out of one hundred three 
sent representatives to get a Republican organization? 
A. Yes. 



243 

IRISH PARLIAMENT MEETS OPENLY UNTIL 
PROSCRIBED 

Q. Where did they meet? 

A. In the Mansion House in Dublin. 

Q. But some of them were not there, because they were in jail. 

A. Yes. President de Valera was in jail, and my brother was 
in jail, and a number of others at that time. 

Q. What steps did they take? Was this first meeting in the 
open? 

A. Yes, oh, yes. 

Q. Now, give us the history of that organization. It is very 
important. 

A. As so many were in prison, the government elected was only 
provisional. Because you must remember that the cream of the 
men were in jail, and those who were left felt that they should 
wait until they got all their comrades together before electing a 
regular government. So they elected only a provisional govern- 
ment. That was in January, 1919. In March there was a general 
amnesty. It was in connection with the German plot idea of May, 
1918, that they were put into prison. In March, 1919, they let ihem 
all out. And then they had the election of the Irish Government. 
President de Valera was elected president, and Arthur Griffith was 
elected vice-president; and the names of the others I would rather 
not give for state reasons. Some of them are known and some of 
them are not known. 

Q. But a complete organization was effected? 

A. A complete organization was effected, and the first resolution 
to be passed was that Irish would be spoken in the Irish Parliament, 
although English could not under the circumstances be excluded 
entirely, and that all the records of the Parliament should be in 
Irish. English could not be kept out altogether, because some of the 
older men could not learn to speak Irish. But all the records are 
in Irish, and all who can speak Irish use it. 

Q. How long did they continue to function openly in the eyes 
of the British officials? 

A. I think the first attempt to smother them up was on the occa- 
sion of the American delegation's visit to Ireland in 1919. Senator 
Frank Walsh, you were on that delegation, I think. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: No, I'm not a senator. 

The Witness: I got mixed up, and it doesn't matter. Coming 
events cast their shadows before, perhaps. 



244 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Not for those who are here, with all due defer- 
ence to them. 

The Witness: You see, the Irish Parliament only held a few ses- 
sions in the open; and then the word was passed around that there 
was going to be a meeting of Dail Eireann, and the public was 
admitted. But the enemy did not get word beforehand. They really 
held their meetings in public for twelve months, or nearly twelve 
months at any rate. But they have been able to do almost as much 
meeting in secret. They immediately compiled statistics as to the 
conditions of the fisheries and of agriculture, and the condition of 
the ports, and the improvements that could be made. They have 
done all the ordinary work of government, and have done it very 
well and very effectively. 

NINE-TENTHS OF LOCAL COUNCILS RENOUNCE 
ALLEGIANCE TO BRITAIN 

Senator Walsh: Up to this time the municipal and county council 
members had not declared themselves openly and publicly as to 
whether they were still holding allegiance to the British Government 
or not? 

A. That is quite true. 

Q. Then the elections came, in 1920, when that issue was pre- 
sented for all candidates for office in Ireland? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Will you kindly state how many elected members to the 
municipal councils and county councils declared under oath their 
abandonment of allegiance to the British Government and swore 
their allegiance to the Irish Republic? 

A. All the county councils in the south and west of Ireland, in 
what are called the chief provinces, and I think three or four in 
Ulster. But all of the south and west. 

Q. What per cent, would that be? 

A. That would be twenty-seven out of thirty-two. 1 There are 
thirty-two counties in Ireland. There are nine in Ulster. Out of 
that nine in Ulster, there were four, I think — I am pretty certain 
of four — that declared themselves for Dail Eireann. 

Q. Senator Walsh: I have seen the statement in some English 
paper that ninety-one per cent, of county and municipal councils 
had declared their allegiance to the Irish Republic. 

A. It was fully ninety-one per cent. 1 



1 See note, page 155. 



245 

Q. So that in 1920 you had, in addition to the Irish national 
Parliament, some ninety-one per cent, of the municipal and county 
councils recognizing the Irish Government and declaring that they 
no longer gave allegiance to the English Government? 

A. Right. 

REPUBLICAN COURTS SUPPLANT ENGLISH 
JUDICIARY 

Q. Now, to what extent did the courts and judicial functions 
of Ireland pass from the control of the British government to the 
Irish government itself? 

A. It passed almost absolutely. 

Q. Give us the figures, please. 

A. I do not know what you mean by figures. Wherever the 
Irish Republicans gained the elections — 

Q. What I want to do is to get what you claim the facts are, 
so that your friends in America can get the truth. 

A. Wherever the councils had declared allegiance to Dail 
Eireann — that was in ninety-one per cent, of the counties — the courts 
were established immediately. At first the courts were not noticed 
very much by the British Government. She did not like them, but 
she had no law which could absolutely forbid them. Arbitration 
courts were legal. And these courts, under the head of arbitration 
courts, began their functioning. 

Q. So that ninety-one per cent, of the elected representatives of 
the people established arbitration courts? 

A. Yes, certainly. But you must remember that they came on 
only gradually. 

Q. Yes, I understand. But previous to this movement the judi- 
cial control of Ireland was never a matter of local control; it was 
always a matter of British control? 

A. Yes, always. 

Q. So that the entire judiciary was appointed by the British 
Government? 

A. Yes. 

Q. So what became of them? 

A. They sat in state in empty courts, surrounded by barbed wire 
and soldiers. And they waited for cases, and none came. In one 
case — I would like to have you notice that when the judge came to 
the city he was always lodged at one of the friendly houses in the 
city, in what would correspond to your Four Hundred, I suppose. 
And when the arbitration courts began to function, the Irish Parlia- 



246 

ment said that these judges were forbidden to hold their courts. 
The result was that when the judge came to Cork there was no 
lodging for him. He could not sleep in the barracks, because it 
was against English law in some way. And so he had to sleep in 
the courthouse. 

Q. So that in Cork there was not only no court for the judge, 
but not even a bed? 

A. Yes, not even a bed. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Were there no hotels? 

A. There are hotels, but the judge, you see, in Ireland is always 
an obnoxious person. You see, he was in the pay of the enemy, 
and he was doing the enemy's business, and he always came sur- 
rounded with a great deal of police and military. And so he did 
not consider it safe to stay in the hotel. 

Q. How many of these judges have resigned their positions? 

A. Many of the magistrates have resigned. They sit in the petty 
courts. 

Q. Are they elected officials? 

A. No. The Local Government Bill gave the right for nation- 
alists to become J. P.'s. But they have many of them resigned now. 

Q. But the judiciary, the English judiciary has practically dis- 
appeared? 

A. Yes. But they sit there yet for purposes of state, I think. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Now let us come to the police force. To 
what extent does the old Irish police force, the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary, exist to this day? To what extent has the old Royal 
Irish Constabulary disappeared by resignations or by severing alle- 
giance to the British crown, and gone over to the Republican move- 
ment? 

A. Several hundreds of them have resigned. I do not know 
how many of them have gone over to the Republican movement. 
They have not gone over as police. They would not be accepted 
as police. They have been trained very largely as spies, and they 
have been trained to spy on each other. When we set up a police 
force, it will be a police force such as the R. I. C. never was. 

Q. That force has largely broken down? 

A. Yes, although it has been largely recruited from England. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: I would like to ask Miss MacSwiney 
a question in regard to the resident magistrates. The resident magis- 
trate is a paid official? 

A. Yes, he is a paid official appointed by the British Government. 

Q. What has become of them? 

A. They have continued to sit in their courts. If a policeman 



247 

catches something like a petty thief, he will bring them up before 
the court. But the court is empty most of the time. 

Q. Have not many of them resigned? 

A. No, not many. They have nice, comfortable jobs, you know, 
and are always selected from the anti-Irish population. Not many 
of them have resigned. 

AUTHORITY OF REPUBLICAN COURTS DERIVED 
FROM UNANIMOUS CONSENT OF PEOPLE 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Does the authority of the Irish courts 
rest upon the consent of the people or upon some other force? 

A. Upon the consent of the population entirely. And I do not 
think anything could show the truth about the false contention put 
out by England that we are not a law-abiding people better than 
the success of these courts, with only moral force, in many cases, 
to enforce their decrees. We are a law-abiding people absolutely, 
if we are given a chance to have our own laws. 

I would like to stress the good the courts did in bringing together 
the people. Unionists brought their cases to the Irish courts. 
Protestants brought their cases to the Irish courts. And although 
they may not have ceased to be Unionists, they have come to the 
conclusion that if they want their claims settled, they must bring 
them into the Republican courts. There was one case where a 
Protestant landlord had a case which he felt he must have settled, 
and so he took it to the Irish courts. And his friends were shocked, 
and remonstrated. And he said, "I do not care. If I take it into 
the English courts I might get a just judgment, but it will not be 
obeyed. And if I take it into the Irish courts I will get a just judg- 
ment and it will be obeyed." And he did get a just judgment and 
it was obeyed. 

There is a rather interesting incident in connection with those 
courts. Three men were arrested for breaking down a wall. They 
were convicted in a Republican court. One consented to repair the 
damage, and the other two refused. We have no jails. However, 
it happened to be on the coast of Galway. So these gentlemen were 
taken to one of these islands off the coast of Galway. They were 
given food and everything, for we believe in treating our prisoners 
humanely. After a couple of days the British police heard wheie 
they were, and went out in a boat to rescue them. But when the 
British police came out, these prisoners stoned the police and said 
to go away, that they were prisoners of the Irish republic and 
would not be molested. 



248 

REMARKABLE ABSENCE OF CRIME IN IRELAND 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is nearly all the civil litigation and crimi- 
nal litigation carried on in these Irish courts, — in the Republican 
courts of Ireland? 

A. The civil litigation altogether. The criminal litigation would 
be a burden if there were much of it. But it is not an excessive 
exaggeration to say that there is no crime in Ireland. That would 
be true before the trouble started rather than now, since the Black- 
and-Tans came. In Ireland there is a custom that when a judge 
goes on circuit and has no serious cases to try, he is presented with 
a pair of white kid gloves. And there were sessions after sessions 
where the judges going around their circuits got white kid gloves. 
They often made a joke about it, that the judges should set up a 
glove shop. And that is an absolute fact. There may be little petty 
larceny cases and breach of promises and the like, and I think that 
is about the most serious thing. We occasionally have a murder 
case, but very, very rarely. 

BRITISH JUSTICE PERVERTED FOR POLITICAL 

ENDS 

And with a view to the English support of law and order in Ire- 
land, I would like to tell of the last murder case before I left Ire- 
land. A man named Quaid in County Clare in Ireland, a man with- 
out a good reputation, a blustering sort of a bully who took Eng- 
land's part in the war and advocated recruiting, and did his very 
best to get recruits for her. He was a man with a very hot temper. 
And sometime about a year and a half ago, — he was a publican, 
a saloon keeper — and he kicked one of his bar attendants to death. 
She was a woman. Kicked her to death absolutely. She was found 
dead in the yard the next morning. That man deserved to be hanged 
in any civilized country. His counsel made a very long speech in 
his behalf, showing that he was a very loyal subject, that he had 
done a great deal of recruiting for the army and had gotten a great 
many recruits, and that he asked for a light sentence. 

Q. Senator Walsh: This was in the British courts? 

A. Yes, in the British courts. He got a sentence of twelve 
months as a first-class misdemeanant, which meant that he could 
have his friends visit him, and his own clothes, and all the other 
privileges except that of walking out when he liked. So he got 
twelve months, when men who were found with revolvers in their 
pockets — which it is the right of a free man to carry if he likes — 
get from two to five years penal servitude. He got twelve months in 



249 

the most comfortable prison they had. And the judge, in passing 
sentence, said they would make him as comfortable as they pos- 
sibly could. Six weeks afterwards the man was released. I believe 
he developed a headache or something like that. That is the way 
the English keep law and order in our country. 

Again, three policemen were caught red-handed in Aghada, not 
far from Cork, in the act of stealing. There were Americans there, 
and the policemen were accused and found guilty of stealing their 
property. About two months after that the Americans cleared out. 
They got a sentence of nine months each, I believe. But three days 
after your boys cleared out, they were released. That is keeping 
law and order. 

CRIMINALS SENT TO IRELAND AS SPIES AND 
BLACK-AND-TANS 

Another case of law and order I would like to mention is that of 
Hardy. Perhaps you have heard of that before. It was in all the 
papers of England and Ireland. It was the case of a spy. That 
man got five years penal servitude, and the judge who sentenced him 
said his record was the very worst that he had ever come across in 
all his years of experience on the bench. About five months after 
he was incarcerated, he was released and sent to Ireland to see how 
many Sinn Feiners he could spy upon. He was sent to find out who 
the Sinn Fein leaders were, how they made their remarkable es- 
capes, and if they could not get hold of them. He visited Mr. Ar- 
thur Griffith and said that he had been a secret service man, and that 
his sympathies were very much for Ireland, and that he would like 
to help them if he could. He said that he knew all the movements 
of the enemy. He could tell them where Mr. Hamar Greenwood 
could be found if it was thought advisable to have him visit another 
planet, and he knew where Mr. Lloyd George could be found if they 
wanted to get him. Mr. Griffith listened to him very attentively and 
asked a few questions. What the man wanted was to get in touch 
with the Sinn Fein council. So Mr. Griffith listened to him appar- 
ently very favorably, and said, "Come back tomorrow morning and 
we will see what can be done to put your information before the 
council." And then Mr. Griffith said when he came back, "I have ar- 
ranged a meeting for you, and you be here tomorrow afternoon and 
we will see what can be done." He did arrange a meeting, not of 
the Sinn Fein Council, but of some newspaper correspondents, of 
some American and French and Danish and other correspondents. 
He had the only English newspaper man in Ireland he could trust, 



250 

the London Daily Herald man. And of course he had some Irish- 
men. And they sat around and acted like a Sinn Fein council. 
But in case their accents might betray them, it was agreed that only 
the Irishmen should speak at all. Hardy was asked to tell his story. 
He said that on a certain night on Kingstown pier Sir Hamar Green- 
wood would be crossing to England, and it would be easy to get him. 
He was quite nervous when he started, but as he got along he got 
very fluent. When he got through Mr. Griffith got up and said, "Mr. 
Hardy, you think you have been speaking to a Sinn Fein Council. 
You have been speaking to a number of foreign press correspondents. 
They doubtless know already who sent you here. And now I want 
them to know your record." And he gave them all his record, and 
gave him until nine o'clock in the evening to get out of the country. 
Hardy begged to have until eight o'clock the next morning, and this 
was granted; but he was advised not to be found in Ireland after 
eight o'clock the next morning. 

This is the way the English keep law and order in Ireland. They 
take criminals out of the jails and send them to spy on the Irish. 
And they take them out of the jails and make Black-and-Tans of 
them. There is a friend of mine who was temporarily the prison 
physician at Portland prison, and one day he met a man on the 
street in the Black-and-Tan uniform and stopped him and said, 
"Where did I meet you?" And the man said, "Oh, doctor, don't you 
know? I was at Portland prison when you were the prison physi- 
cian." That is the way we get English law and order in Ireland. 
Most of the criminals are sent in from the outside. We have no 
trouble except where the British forces make it. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is that due to the Irish character, or is 
that due to the fact that they are banded together in this common 
cause where they must protect one another, or is it historically true? 

A. It is historically true. There was at one time a great deal of 
drunkenness in the country, but the Volunteer movement killed that. 
The people are intensely serious now. The work of our courts is 
really very light. 

BRITISH ENDEAVOR TO SUPPRESS REPUBLICAN 

COURTS 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do these courts have to meet in secret? 
A. Now they do. 

Q. How long were they in the open? 

A. They were in the open until about, I think, the time of my 
brother's arrest, There was a court going on that night. They are 



251 

open now to those who want to go into them. The Irish public 
knows where they are. 

Q. And others than the Irish can go into them? 

A. Yes, but not too openly, for then the police or the military 
would come in and break things up. 

Q. But they are going on now? 

A. Oh, yes. But the British authorities have put them down and 
declared them illegal. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: The British Government specifically declared 
them illegal. They were afraid they were getting too much power, 
because not only the Republicans used them, but they were used by 
the Unionists and by the people all over the country. 

The Witness: I have been asked to say something here about the 
burning of creameries and destruction in general ; the circumstances 
under which the Coercion bill went into effect, as well as the exact 
circumstances of my brother's case; and the shooting of police. 

I would like to say as quickly as possible with regard to the shoot- 
ing of policemen. I am most anxious to speak to the Commission 
on that point. I have been told ever since I have come to this coun- 
try that there were three things that were a great stumbling block to 
American sympathy in the Irish situation. The first was that it was 
a religious fight. The second was that the Irish were murdering 
policemen. And the third was the difficulty of giving Britain guar- 
antees that we would not molest her or let our coast be used for pur- 
poses of military aggression. 

RELIGIOUS DIFFICULTY CREATED BY ENGLAND 

With regard to the religious difficulty, there isn't any, except what 
England creates. The religious difficulty of today is created exactly 
.as she created the religious difficulty with the Earl of Charlemont in 
1797 and smashed the Irish Volunteers. She keeps alive the re- 
ligious issue in Belfast for her own purposes. But there is no trou- 
ble among the people otherwise. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What is your history in Cork? Will you 
kindly state if there has ever been any trouble there and what per 
cent, of the people are Catholic? 

A. I suppose that the per cent, of the population that is non- 
Catholic would be about ten per cent. The Jews have their syna- 
gogue, the Nonconformists have their church. The Church of Ire- 
land, which has been disestablished and is the Episcopalian Church, 
have their churches. The Protestants of Cork all have their churches 
just like the Catholics, only they are not so numerous. 



252 

RELIGIOUS TOLERANCE OF IRISH PROVED BY 
HISTORY AND EXPERIENCE 

There never has been any persecution of the Protestants in Cork. 
If we wanted to persecute Protestants, we could persecute them and 
make it too hot for them very effectively. But the very biggest busi- 
ness houses in the city are owned by Protestants. For a long time 
they employed only Protestants. That does not hold any longer 
now. They have become more broad-minded and less bigoted. But 
the only bigotry shown in Cork has been shown by Protestants. A 
business house needing help would put up a sign in the window, 
"No Irish Catholic need apply." Personally I would feel like doing 
something to such people, but the population of Cork did not. The 
Protestant population of Cork, if asked individually, could never 
prove a single case of aggression on the part of the Catholic popula- 
tion. If you went through the whole length and breadth of Ireland, 
you could not find a case where the Catholics were the aggressors. 
If they are attacked, they will answer back, the same as other people 
would. But Ireland has been remarkably free from religious perse- 
cutions. The Irish people seem to be unable to do otherwise. We 
are the only nation in the whole wide world that accepted Chris- 
tianity without murdering the first apostles. We are the only nation 
in the whole world that does not show in its history some early per- 
secutions for religious heresies. 

Q. Mr. Frank P. Walsh: Do you have a Jewish quarter in Cork, 
— a Ghetto? 

A. It is not called a Ghetto. It has the curious name of the 
Hibernian Buildings. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: You never have had an anti-Semitic 
movement in Ireland? 

A. We never have had a religious persecution movement of any 
kind whatever. 

Q. But they did that in England. 

A. Yes, but England has often endeavored to have persecu- 
tions in Ireland without any success whatever. Queen Mary in 
England started to persecute the Protestants in England. She issued 
the same writ for the Pale, the district she owned in Ireland. The 
writ was obeyed in England. It was not obeyed in the Irish Pale. 
The Catholic Irish citizens refused to persecute their own fellow 
citizens. And Protestant citizens by the hundreds left England and 
went to Ireland for safety. 

Q. Mr. F. P. "Walsh: But there never has been any persecution, 
even of the Jews? 



253 

A. No. 

Q. But there is a large Jewish quarter in Dublin, I think. 

A. Yes, the Jews have a habit of creeping in, you know. Bui 
they are quite harmless. As a matter of fact, the Jewish population 
and the Jewish synagogue in Cork sent us one of the nicest expres- 
sions of sympathy on the death of my brother that we had from 
anybody. 

We will not persecute anybody. There are very few people in 
Ireland, even the people who shout loudest, who believe in religious 
persecution. The Orange section in the north of Ireland are a very 
ignorant type of people. They are more like the lower class of 
England than they are like the Irish. But it is true that they have 
the idea very firmly fixed in their heads that the pope is going to 
come over to Ireland and persecute all the Protestants. Of course 
it is nonsense, but it is one of those ideas that are very difficult to 
get out of their heads. When the English army of occupation is 
withdrawn that will disappear. As for not coming under the Irish 
Parliament, they will have to. We are not going to have anything 
like Englishmen in our country. We will give them any kind of 
guarantees they like, but we will give it to them and not to the 
English. 

So much for the religious difficulty. The fact that there will not 
be any religious persecution under the Irish Government can be 
proved only by experience. We know there will not be. 

Q. Senator Walsh: To what extent have Catholic constituencies 
elected Protestants to represent them in the British Parliament and 
on the county and city councils? 

A. Very many of them. 

Q. Have you had Protestant mayors of Cork? 

A. Yes, the third last was a Protestant. 

Q. Have you other Protestant officials? 

A. Yes, the senior alderman is a Protestant. 

Q. Who is he? 

A. Alderman Beamish. 

Q. Is he a Unionist? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Is it true all over the Catholic part of Ireland that they have 
elected mayors repeatedly who have not been of the Catholic faith? 

A. It is true, true repeatedly, that a Protestant is elected if he is 
the best man. But they would not elect a Unionist at all, no matter 
what his religion was. Thomas Davis said in one of his poems: 
"There art two great parties in the end. You are one with us if 
you are Ireland's friend." If a man is for Ireland, we never ask 



254 

him his religion. If he is a Catholic and we knew that he was 
against Ireland, out he would go. It is Ireland that matters. 

ULSTER RELIGIOUS ISSUE MAINTAINED TO PRE- 
VENT ORGANIZATION OF WORKERS 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: To come back to the industries. 
The textile industries of Ireland, where do they exist? 

A. In the south of Ireland and Belfast and Balbriggan. The 
hosiery factory at Balbriggan that was destroyed lately was owned 
by an Englishman and a Unionist. But of course the injury to him 
was unintended. The factory was burned to destroy the industry 
of the town. 

Q. Did that give employment to many people? 

A. Yes, to several hundreds. It is the main industry of that 
town. 

Q. Are you acquainted in the north? 

A. Not very well. 

Q. Do you know whether these textile workers are organized 
into labor unions? 

A. They are, but they ignore their unions when the time comes 
to have a fight against the Catholics. 

Q. In the north of Ireland are they organized? 

A. There are trade unions in the north of Ireland, but they are 
spoiled by this bigotry. 

Q. Do you not think that perhaps these religious differences 
may be more economic than political ; that those who profit by 
keeping these employees divided, by keeping them unorganized, 
wherever there is an effort made to improve their standard of living, 
they simply start a religious war among them and make organiza- 
tion impossible? 

A. Yes, that is largely true. But the main interest in Ireland is 
not a capitalistic one. It is a political one. It is England versus 
Ireland all the time. 

Q. Yes, but now the burning down of that mill was not political. 
That was owned by a British capitalist. 

A. Yes, that was Mr. Smith. 

Q. Yes. That was simply to harass the people who worked 
there? 

A. Yes. It was not an attack on the individual owner. It was 
simply the English policy of starvation. They are trying to throw 
the people out of work and prevent them getting food and starve 
them into submission. 



255 

Q. I have been informed that labor organizers in the north of 
Ireland are endeavoring to organize the Protestants. In previous 
years they have endeavored to organize both Catholics and Protes- 
tants. This time they said, we will organize the Protestants and we 
can get the Catholics later. Then when the employers heard of it 
they told the Protestant employees that it was a Catholic trick. So 
the regular organizers went over to organize the Catholics, and then 
the employers told the Catholics that it was a Protestant trick. Do 
you not think that it was a game of playing the parties off against 
each other? 

A. Yes, but the fundamental difference is political. 

Q. Yes, but the religious differences are inspired more by the 
economic than by the political issues. 

A. Yes, that is quite possible. 

IRELAND WILLING TO GUARANTEE PORTS WILL 
NOT BE USED BY ENGLAND'S FOES 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now, I handed you a list of questions. 

A. Yes. I have discussed the first. That one, the religious diffi- 
culty, does not exist. I will take the next one, the guarantee for 
England's supremacy, I shall say, or England's safety. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: They call is safety. 

The Witness: They call it safety. Our President took lately the 
first paragraph of the new agreement made with Cuba by the United 
States. It is a guarantee that the ports of Cuba will not be given 
to any foreign power or used in any way that would injure the 
United States. I am not sure of the wording of it. But the point 
is this: that we are perfectly willing to give a promise that we will 
not let any other foreign power, or any power, use our ports as a 
war base. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Against Great Britain? 

A. Yes. We are perfectly willing to give that guarantee and to 
keep it, because when we get our Republic, we are not going to go 
to war with anybody. Neither will we allow our ports to be used 
by one big nation that wants to make war on another big nation. 
England says that is not enough. If it is not enough, she will have 
to do without. She is not going to keep us perpetually in slavery. 
England will have to be satisfied with what is right from us. She 
will have to be satisfied with justice to our interests as well as hers. 
We will be perfectly willing to be good friends and forget the past, 
provided she clears out and leaves us alone. If, as Lloyd George 
said some time ago, England will never agree to an Irish Republic 



256 

until England is beaten to the ground, well, I am very sorry, because 
England will have to be beaten to the ground. And perhaps Ma- 
caulay's traveler, who stood on London bridge and looked on the 
ruins of St. Paul's, is already on the horizon. At any event, we are 
going to get our freedom. England cannot keep us in slavery. 
You cannot keep in slavery a people every individual of whom is 
willing to die for the principle of freedom. So much for the third 
point. 

SHOOTING OF BRITISH POLICE WARRANTED BY 
RULES OF WAR 

The second thing I was asked is about what is called often the 
murdering of policemen. Here it is called the shooting of police- 
men. I will simply take the murders of policemen by denying that 
there ever has been a policeman murdered in Ireland. Now I will 
deal with the shooting of policemen. Will you please start out with 
the premise that Ireland and England are at war. One of the in- 
stances about the shooting of policemen was the ambush of seven- 
teen Black-and-Tans last week at a place not far from Mallow, when 
the whole seventeen of them were captured, sixteen of them killed, 
and the seventeenth very severely wounded. That was put down as 
a very horrible murder. Suppose that in the recent war an Ameri- 
can scouting party went out on a Belgian road and got information 
that three or four lorries of German soldiers carrying ammunition 
were coming along the road. If they felt strong enough, and if 
they were very plucky, — perhaps even if they did not feel strong 
enough, they would get into a nice little ambush and they would 
give the best account of that German party that they possibly could. 
I think you will agree with me that that is a statement of what 
would happen. Would you do anything but laugh at any man that 
would call that ambush party murder? Of course it is not a mur- 
der. It is an act of war. The Black-and-Tans were armed to the 
teeth. I should like to tell you how the Black-and-Tans go around 
the streets of our cities and country places. Four or five days ago 
there was an ambush at Bandon, and in that ambush our men got 
the worst of it, — four or five of our men were killed. You will not 
find any Irish citizen coming before this Commission and claiming 
that these men were murdered. Why? Because it was an act of 
war. It was the shooting of one set of soldiers by another set of 
soldiers. I think there is an incident in American history known as 
the Boston Massacre. I am not quite conversant with American his- 
torv. I know a fair share of it, but I feel diffident about talking 



. 257 

American history in your presence. But I think that in that Boston 
Massacre two or three or perhaps more British officers were shot, 
and perhaps several civilians. I think that the shooting of those 
officers was described as murder, and the shooting of the civilians 
was described as the shooting of rascally rebels. Do you agree that 
the shooting of those officers was murder? You may do so if you 
wish. I do not. I do not agree that the shooting of any of the 
armed forces of the British Crown while they are armed is murder. 
It is not. I will tell you this: every single individual in the enemy's 
uniform who passes through the streets and roads of our country by 
that act commits an act which by the laws of international warfare 
renders him worthy of death. Any German soldier who went out in 
the streets of Belgium during the late war was shot if his enemy 
could shoot him. I think that a little clear thinking on these points 
would be advisable before we are accused of wholesale murder. 

NO UNARMED POLICEMAN SHOT UNLESS A 
PROVED SPY 

I have also been told that individual policemen who were un- 
armed have been shot. That is also true. Now I will tell you who 
those individual policemen are. I was asked a little while ago about 
the police in Ireland. The police in any civilized country are a 
civil force under the control of the civil authorities, and that civil 
force deals with offences against the civil law only. The police in 
Ireland have always been under the authority of the British Govern- 
ment. They have not always carried arms, because there have been 
times when we were not in a state of war. But they carry arms at 
present, and therefore they are among the armed forces of the 
Crown. Among the Royal Irish Constabulary was a division known 
as the G Division. Their work was purely detective work. The 
people they were sent to spy upon were our fellow citizens. And 
that went on during every political agitation in Ireland. During the 
present war, since 1916 — since 1914, in fact — the police in that G 
Division were very active. I am sorry to have to acknowledge that 
they were Irishmen. That only makes them greater sinners. No 
one is held in greater horror and contempt than Judas, and every 
one of those men was a Judas because he betrayed his own. In that 
G Division were men who were expert spies, because they were 
people that mixed freely with the Irish people and picked up infor- 
mation from girls whom they met and other people, and they gave 
that information to the British Government, and that information 
led very often to the arrest and imprisonment of their fellow coun- 



258 

trymen. Therefore they were spies. In the recent times in Ireland, 
when the times got very hot, these spies have done very good work 
for the English Government in Ireland. One of our leaders who was 
executed in 1916 was executed through one of those spies, who has 
himself been shot since. During Easter Week some of the Volun- 
teers were anxious to shoot down every policeman, every police spy, 
that is — every policeman of the G Division; but the leaders, Pearse 
and MacDermott, said, "No, this is a clean fight, and we will deal 
with them afterwards." There was one detective who was very 
active in tracking down our men. His life was saved by John Mac- 
Dermott, one of the signatories of the Irish Declaration of Inde- 
pendence. John MacDermott was a very young man, and he was 
very lame. As a soldier he would be considered as among the unfit 
in any army in the world. But he was one of the greatest workers 
we had. Because of his lameness the military officers who captured 
the people after Easter Week came to the conclusion that he could 
not be one of the leaders, and so he was thrown into the barracks 
along with the rank and file, and he was put in the batch to be sent 
to the Wakefield prison in England. They were paraded in the 
Richmond barrack yards before leaving Dublin, and this particular 
detective was sent up and down the ranks to see if there was any 
man there who ought to get penal servitude rather than deportation. 
And in going up and down the ranks he saw John MacDermott, and 
he pointed him out to the British authorities as one of the seven 
signatories of the Irish Declaration of Independence. And John 
MacDermott was taken out and shot a few days afterwards. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Was this the man whose life he had saved? 

A. This was the very man whose life he saved. And that man 
has subsequently been shot, and shooting was too gentle a dealth 
for such a wretch. 

No unarmed policeman has been shot in Ireland unless he has 
been proved a spy. And he has been proved a spy on good evidence. 
Our Irish Secret Service, like other divisions of the Irish Govern- 
ment, is rather efficient. We have captured the official and private 
correspondence of Lord French, and we have sent back his personal 
correspondence marked "Censored by the I. R. A." His official cor- 
respondence he did not get back. The official correspondence we 
have captured from time to time has been conclusive evidence that 
there are spies at work among us. One morning a policeman com- 
ing along from the general postoffice with a mail bag was stopped 
on the street by two Volunteers and relieved of his mail bag. It is 
not always done as openly as that on the streets at eight o'clock in 
the morning. He was sent home without his mail bag. That mail 



259 



bag contained conclusive evidence against a man who had been sus- 
pected as a spy for a long time. And he paid the penalty that all 
spies pay. 

You may hold up your hands in horror and say we are not justi- 
fied in shooting spies. They are people that I have a great deal of 
contempt for, but I have a great deal of contempt for many people 
I would not shoot. But I ask you this: what right have you or any 
other nation to object to our shooting spies unless you object to the 
shooting of spies for yourself and your allies? It has been sug- 
gested that these men should have an open trial. There were a good 
many spies shot in England at the beginning of the war. I believe 
that the question was asked in the House of Commons why they 
were not given an open trial. And the answer was that it would be 
giving aid and information to the enemy. If England is allowed to 
shoot her spies without an open trial, why should we not too? I 
do not know whether America had any spies to shoot during the 
recent war. 

Chairman Howe : Not in this war. 

The Witness: But in any war where you found spies to be shot, 
you shot them. Very well. But spies in Ireland have only been 
shot on official evidence, and the official evidence was very largely 
obtained from themselves, from Dublin Castle. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Have any Irish Republican officers who have 
been spies of the government been shot by the British? 

A. I do not really know whether we have any spies like that. 
When I say that we have a secret service force, I mean those who 
capture the mails and get information like that. 

Q. But you seek the same right for the officers of the Irish Re- 
publican Army to shoot British spies as the British exercise in shoot- 
ing Irish secret service men? 

A. Yes, I ask only this, that when England calls the shooting of 
the spies she captures murder, she can begin to call the shooting of 
the spies that she employs murder. You must begin to use the 
proper word. The shooting of spies is not murder. The only mur- 
ders we have had in Cork in many, many years — I am not a young 
woman any more — but in all my life I can only remember two mur- 
ders in Cork, and I do not think there would be more than four or 
five in Ireland. And the murder that I told you of, that man who 
kicked his barmaid to death, was sentenced by the British Govern- 
ment to the lightest sentence that he could possibly get, and let out 
after six weeks. 



260 

SPIES NOT SHOT UNTIL AFTER WARNING 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Miss MacSwiney, I want to ask a 
few questions to get this straight. You say that policemen are not 
shot indiscriminately,, but that only when they are spies and have 
done work worthy of death? — that is, unarmed policemen? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You also say that some are ambushed and shot that way? 

A. Yes. 

Q. There is also a third case that happened when you were on 
the water, perhaps. Something like fourteen policemen were shot 
at different times and places, some on duty and some off; some of 
them in their homes. 

A. Fourteen of them? Those were in Fermoy, perhaps? 

Commissioner Thomas: No, in Dublin. 

The Witness: Oh, those men were spies. They were English secret 
service men who had the clews of the machinery of our government. 
I believe they were the head men there, who were doing untold dam- 
age. I do not know the details. But I know this: if any of those 
men were shot by the Irish Republican Army, they were shot justly 
and after warning. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What do you mean by warning? 

A. Oh, they have been told that they would be shot. 

Q. You mean that they were told they would be shot if they did 
not leave the country? 

A. Yes, they had to leave the country. 

Q. If they left the country they would not be shot? 

A. Yes, if they left the country they would be safe. We would 
have no further objection. They would not be shot. 

ENGLAND VIOLATES RULES OF WAR IN TREAT- 
ING IRISH PRISONERS AS CRIMINALS 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: You said that one object of the 
British Government was to drive the Irish people into open war- 
fare ? 

A. Yes. It is guerilla warfare now. 

Q. Do I understand you to say that England would then be 
justified in arresting the vice-president of the Irish Republic as an 
act of war? 

A. She has done it. 

Q. Yes, but you say that she is justified in doing it, though, as 
an act of war? 



261 

A. Yes, but I say that she is not justified in doing any act of 
aggression whatever in Ireland. 

Q. Yes, hut it is according to the code of war. the ethics of war, 
if you could use that word, that Arthur (irittitli is iu prison at this 
time. 

A. Yes, with one proviso that covers my brother's case at the 
same time. Why? Because when two countries are at war, and 
when the officers of one country are captured by another, they should 
be given the status of prisoners of war. If my brother had been 
given the status of a prisoner of war, he would never have gone on 
hunger strike. If Arthur Griffith is given the treatment of a prisoner 
of war, well and good. But what we object to and what we fight 
against and what my brother died to protest against is the assump- 
tion of England that she is entitled to arrest us and drag us off to 
prison or execute us because she owns our country. 

Q. I understand. But according to the code of war, military 
search and seizure is not the thing that it is under the code of peace. 
Now, military search and seizure, you would say, is not any special 
disability in Ireland at the present time? 

A. Yes, granted the treatment of prisoners of war. 

Q. In other words, granting your point of view that England has 
no right to be in a state of war with you? 

A. We do not complain against search and seizure, against ar- 
rest, against anything except vindictive reprisals against the civilian 
population; providing only that the people so arrested are treated 
as prisoners of war and not as common criminals. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Accepting that you are in a state of war with 
England? 

A. Accepting that we are in a state of war. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: In other words, there is a distinction 
to be drawn against the burning of factories, as at Balbriggan, and 
the burning of creameries and the destruction of civilian homes, 
which is wrong, even under conditions of war, because it is the de- 
struction of civilian property. But search and seizure and impris- 
onment you do not object to? 

A. Right, exactly, if they give us the status of prisoners of war. 
But they are not doing that. But as long as England holds that she 
is arresting us as criminals or as rebels, as she once said, and gives 
us the treatment of criminals rather than prisoners of war, she is 
not justified. 

Q. Senator Walsh: \ou claim that the shooting of these men 
who are spies would be justified the same as England is in shooting 
spies? 



262 

A. Certainly. 

Q. But it is quite a different thing for England to shoot at ran- 
dom at a crowd of civilians? 

A. Yes, certainly. Now here is the thing we have to contend 
with on the country roads. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Wait a minute. Is that taking up another 
subject? 

A. You want to stop now, Mr. Howe? 

Chairman Howe: It is now ten minutes to six, and perhaps we 
should stop now before you branch out into any new subject. 

POLICEMEN SHOT BY BLACK-AND-TANS TO 
THROW ODIUM ON SINN FEIN 

Q. Senator Walsh: Have you finished with the shooting of 
policemen? 

A. No, there is one thing more. Policemen have been shot 
either accidentally or on purpose by other policemen. There is one 
case that happened lately, about which I can give you no absolute 
proof. It is the case of the shooting of an old sergeant, Sergeant 
O'Donovan or O'Donoghue. It happened about the time of my 
brother's death, between that time and the time 1 left home. I know 
that that was murder, and was not done by any of our people. He 
was an inoffensive old man and within a few months of his pension 
time. He had not committed a single act of aggression against our 
people. He was not acting as a spy. He was doing no harm to any- 
body, and not a single Irish Volunteer would have shot him. And 
this man was to have his pension and retire from the force in a very 
short time. He had not taken any part in the work of the Black- 
and-Tans. And he was found shot. The Black-and-Tans have shot 
several men like that who would not act as spies, in the hope of 
throwing further odium on Sinn Fein, as they call it. 

PUNISHMENT INFLICTED ON POLICEMEN WHO 

RESIGN 

Also they have taken out and flogged and shot policemen who 
have resigned from the force, and they have done that in uniform. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That is, before the expiration of their term? 

A. Before the expiration of their term. They have shot them in 
uniform, and all these shootings have been put down as to the Irish 
Republican Government. We do not accept the responsibility, be- 
cause these are murders committed by these men for the purpose of 
throwing odium on Sinn Fein. 



263 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Are any of these Irish state police- 
men or Irish Constabulary resigning? If so, why do they resign? 

A. They are resigning because they will not take any part in 
what is going on now in Ireland. 

Q. After they resigned, did anything happen to them? 

A. Not by our own people. 

Q. But did any of them lose their lives? Have you any per- 
sonal knowledge of such cases? 

A. The information I have of such cases I got from the news- 
papers. 

Q. But you have read in the newspapers that many of them have 
been shot after they have resigned? 

A. Yes, I have. After they had resigned. 

Q. But it seems to me that a Royal Irish Constabulary man who 
had resigned would have rather endeared himself to the people of 
the Irish Republic. 

A. Yes, they would. And furthermore, I can tell you that the 
Irish Government would see that they do not suffer from their resig- 
nations. 

Q. But the Black-and-Tans and the military notice it? 

A. Yes, that is it. While my brother was in Brixton Prison, I 
read in the paper that about four hundred R. I. C.'s sent in a notice 
to the Government warning the Government that if he were released, 
they would resign in a body. The very instant that I saw that, I 
knew for one that it was a lie. There are not four hundred of the 
old R. I. C. men left, nor four dozen, who would say such a thing. 
The four hundred, if there were four hundred, I knew were the 
English recruits to the R. I. C, commonly known as Black-and- 
Tans. It sounded very big in the English papers that four hundred 
R. I. C.'s threatened to resign if the Lord Mayor of Cork was re- 
leased, because their lives would not be safe if he lived. That, of 
course, was another piece of lying propaganda. I said that on the 
instant I saw it, because I did not believe they would do it. The 
very next day the chief of the R. I. C. sent a letter to the paper 
denying that the R. I. C. had taken any such action, and very vigor- 
ously protesting that such a statement should be made. There are 
not four hundred or four dozen of the old R. I. C. who are left, but 
there are any number of Black-and-Tans who might say that they 
protested against his release. 1 



1 This fictitious protest against Lord Mayor MacSwiney's release con- 
tained the imputation that he was one of the chief instigators of the 
shooting of policemen, and hence the lives of policemen would not be 
safe if he were released. 



264 

Q. Commissioner Wood: You say that the taking of the lives 
of these policemen, of the R. I. C. and the Black-and-Tans, was done 
in punishment for indiscriminate murders. But has the murder of 
resigned officers caused reprisals? 

The Witness: Would you mind repeating the question? 

Q. You said that some policemen when they resigned from the 
R. I. C. had heen shot by the Black-and-Tans. Do you claim that 
any such killings have been given as an excuse for the shooting up 
of communities by the Black-and-Tans? 

A. By the Black-and-Tans? 

Q. Yes. 

A. I could not say about that. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Might I say that I told the Chairman some time 
ago that an effort would be made to locate a number of members 
of the R. I. C. that have resigned and would be available as wit- 
nesses. We will give their names to the secretary this evening. 
And they can give the whole story of the R. I. C. 1 

Chairman Howe: We will now adjourn. The meeting will be 
held here in this room at nine-thirty tomorrow morning. 

Adjournment 5:53 P. M. 



1 See testimony of Ex-Policemen Crowley, Tangney, Caddan, and 
Galvin. 



SECOND HEARINGS ON CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Before the 
AMERICAN COMMISSION OF INQUIRY ON CON- 
DITIONS IN IRELAND 

Session Two 



COMMISSIONERS 



Jane Addams 
James H. Maurer 
Oliver P. Newman 
George W. Norris 
Norman Thomas 
David I. Walsh 
L. Hollingsworth Wood 
Frederic C. Howe 

Acting Chairman J 

Before the Commission, sitting in Odd Fellows' Hall, Washington, 
D. C, Thursday, December 9, 1920. 

Session called to order by Chairman Howe at 9:50 A. M. 
Chairman Howe: Mrs. MacSwiney will take the stand. 

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MURIEL MACSWINEY 



name, 

A, 

Q 

A 

Q 

A, 

Q 

A. 

Q 

A 

Q 



Mr. F. P. Walsh (of counsel) : Will you please state your 

Mrs. MacSwiney? 

Muriel MacSwiney. 

And where do you reside? 

In Cork. 

•idow of Terence MacSwiney? 



You are the wi 
Yes, I am. 

And he died on what day? 

I am not sure, — J am not sure of the exact date. 
And where? 

In Brixton prison, in London. 

And at the time of your husband's arrest, what was your hus- 
band's business or profession? 

A. He was the Lord Mayor of the city of Cork. 



265 



266 

Q. And did he have any other official connection? 

A. Yes, he was an officer in the Irish Republican Army. 

Q. Now, would you be good enough to begin, I might suggest, 
to tell the Commission in your own thoughts about his connection 
with the Republican movement in Ireland? And just state to the 
Commission your observations of the movement down to your mar- 
riage with your husband and down to the time of his death. I will 
let you start with your own story. You were born where? 

A. I was born in Cork. 



And what was the name of your parents? 

My father's name was Nicholas Murphy. 

Of Cork? 

Yes, of Cork. And Mary Purcell was my mother's name. 

And your father is dead? 

Yes, he died when I was sixteen. 

And you have brothers and sisters? 

Yes, I have. 

How many? 

Three sisters and two brothers. 

What was the date of your marriage with Mr. MacSwiney? 

June 9, 1917. 



THE MAKING OF A REPUBLICAN CONVERT 

Q. You can go ahead now and state your own position in this 
matter. When, if at any time, did you become interested in the 
cause of Irish independence, and what actuated you? 

A. Well, I think what actuated me was that all my life, even 
when I was quite a baby, I never could understand why there should 
be poor people and rich people. You know there is a great deal of 
poverty in Ireland, especially in Cork. You cannot help noticing 
the many poor children with no shoes and stockings and the like. 
I noticed that when a baby. I could not understand why it should 
be. However, I do not think it is right to give people things only in 
charity. There should be no need of that. There's plenty in Ire- 
land for everybody to have enough. As I grew older I saw that 
things could not be set right except by government. 

Q. Was this prior to your marriage? 

A. yes, that was when I was quite a child. And I saw that 
while England was there we could do nothing, because she destroyed 
our business and kept us poor. 

Q. What was the business of your father? 

A. He had a big distillery. 



267 

Q. Briefly stated, he was a man in comfortable circumstances? 

A. yes, very. 

Q. You say as a child you were moved by the poverty that ex- 
isted in your country, and the reasons for it, and why it should 
be so? 

A. Yes, I was. 

Q. Now, you may proceed, then. 

A. As I got older, as I have told you, I saw that England was 
responsible for all that, and if we had our own government we 
could do something; and until we had our own government we could 
do nothing. I saw that, and I picked up other things, and I learned 
that England was only there as a thief, and had no right to be there 
at all. 

Q. Where were you educated, Mrs. MacSwiney? 

A. I was educated at home until I was fifteen, and then I was 
sent to England for two years. 

Q. To what school? 

A. To Saint Leonard's Convent of the Holy Child at Hastings. 
They have a great many convents in America, by the way; and 
many in England. 

Q. And where was your education finished? 

A. There, at Hastings, in the south of England. 

Q. Did you have any personal interest in the Irish Republican 
movement after your graduation? 

A. Yes, I did. You see, my parents are not quite like myself. 
I think I am rather characteristic of a certain section in Ireland. 
The younger people of Ireland have been thinking in a way that 
some of the older ones have not. There some years ago the Union- 
ists did not wish an Irish Republic. They wished to belong to Eng- 
land. They were well off and quite comfortable and thought only 
of themselves. That is dying out now. The younger members of 
such families are Republican. On account of that, I did not get the 
opportunity to meet Republicans when I was a child. That was 
why I was sent to school to England. I am only characteristic of a 
great many who are brought up shut up at home. And still the 
Irish spirit comes out of them in spite of everything. So until I 
was about twenty-two I did not get the opportunity to do very much. 

Q. What is your age now? 

A. I am twenty-eight. 

Q. When did you first meet Terence MacSwiney? 

A. I met him in 1915, about Christmas. 

Q. Were you interested in the Republican movement before 
then? 



268 

A. yes, I was, some time before then. 

Q. You might state what your activities have been prior to that 
time. 

A. My thought has long been that we should have an Irish Re- 
public, and that England should go from Ireland. 

Q. Did you belong to any organization up to that time? 

A. I did not, up to that lime. I had spoken to people, of cou^e. 

Q. But you had not been connected with any Republican organ- 
ization? 

A. No, on account of my family. I was living at home, of 
course. 

COURTSHIP INTERRUPTED BY POLITICAL 
IMPRISONMENTS 

Q. I wish you would proceed and tell about your husband, and 
your marriage, and tell the whole story down to the present time. 
I am sure it would interest the Commission to hear your story from 
the very first. 

A. Well, I met my husband at the house of mutual friends, about 
Christmas, 1915. And, well, I did not really get to know him very 
intimately at that time. Some time after that I met him a few 
times. 

Q. You might tell what his status was at that time. 

A. He was a commandant of the Irish Republican Army at that 
time. 

Q. He was a commandant? 

A. Yes, in the south of Ireland. Of course, my husband has 
been in all the movements ever since he was a boy; because of 
course, as his sister has told you, theirs is a very old family around 
Cork. She can tell you about that better than I can, because she 
knew him before I did. I met him, as I said, about Christmas. 
And he was arrested about a month after Christmas. 

Q. Upon what charge, if any? 

A. The charge of making a speech. But he was kept without 
trial for a whole month. He was never tried at all. He had to be 
released in the end. 

Q. Where was he confined? 

A. In Cork prison. And he was quite ill then. 

Q. What was the date? 

A. My sister-in-law can tell you the date. 

Q. In 1916? 

A. Yes, 1916. 



269 

Q. Was it after the insurrection or before? 

A. before. Well, when we got the news in Cork of the insur- 
rection in 1916, we heard there was something up in Dublin. And 
I went into town to try to find out what had happened. I heard that 
my husband was up at the Volunteer Hall, the headquarters of the 
Republican army in Cork. There was clanger in Cork then. He 
had been sleeping there because they thought it was safer for him. 
It was not well for him to be alone. He might be shot or arrested. 
He was up at the hall all the week. I had a chance to see him and 
get the news of what was happening in Dublin and in Cork. My 
husband was arrested after that. 

Q. What date was that? 

A. I cannot give the date exactly. It was after Easter Week. 

Q. What was the date of your marriage? 

A. The ninth of June, 1917. 

Q. And I believe you have one child? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And the name of your child? 

A. Maura. 

Q. And when was Maura born? 

A. She was born on the twenty-third of June, 1918. 

Q. Had your husband been arrested before you were married? 

A. Yes, I told you he had. Easter Week, 1916. 

Q. And he was arrested after that, — after your marriage? 

A. yes, like all men in Ireland, whether they had fought or 
not. They were all arrested, after Easier W r eek. 

Q. And when was he first arrested? 

A. Early in 1916, and then after Easter. 

Q. And how long was he confined? 

A. He was confined until after Christmas. 

Q. And where was he sent? 

A. First of all, he was sent to Dublin to Richmond barracks. 
and he was then deported to Wakefield prison in England. 

Q. And he got out under the general amnesty? 

A. Yes, with the other prisoners at Christmas. 

Q. During all that time there was no formal charge lodged 
against him? 

A. no, none of those were charged. 

Q. They just kept him in jail until Christmas time? 

A. They did, for nearly a year. 

Q. From that time what was the course of your husband? 



270 

INHUMAN TREATMENT OF IRISH POLITICAL 
PRISONERS 

A. I visited him in Richmond barracks, I should say. And then 
I was sent over by our own people to England to do something for 
the men who were in the prisons there. Our men were in a terrible 
condition at that time. In the beginning none of their folks were 
allowed to see them. When I went over first, I went to Wandsworth 
prison in London, and then I went to Wakefield, where my husband 
was, because I was supposed to look after the Cork men, and my 
husband and they were in Wakefield. 

Q. How many were confined? 

A. hundreds, if not thousands. The whole of Ireland was in 
jail at that time, and people who had never handled arms also. 
When I went there our men were in a terrible condition. They were 
literally starving. I know one friend of mine, — he had never han- 
dled arms. He was from Bandon in County Cork. I was god- 
mother to one of his children. He was sent to Wakefield before my 
husband was. He was not allowed anything, not a book, not even a 
prayerbook. All of his wife's letters were stopped, and he thought 
that something had happened to her, because she was not very 
strong at that time. His wife was one of the first to get into the 
jails to see their people. Well, I went over just to help those men. 
It was June when I went over. They were in a frightful state. They 
had literally no food except what we brought them. Of course there 
were many Dublin men there, too, but I was looking after the Cork 
men. 

Q. After they were released in 1916, tell what happened. 

A. I was ill after they were released in 1916. 

Q. Were you in Cork? 

SECOND ARREST AND DEPORTATION WITHOUT 
CHARGE OR TRIAL 

A. Yes, I was in Cork, and I was in Dublin for a month, and 
then I went over to England for a visit. And while I was there I 
got the news that my husband had been arrested again. He had 
been out a very short time, about a month, I think. 

Q. What was the date of that? 

A. In February, 1917. 

Q. On what charge? 

A. There was no charge whatever. He was deported to England 
with several others from different parts of the country. I heard 



271 

just that they were arrested and deported to England. I did not 
know where they were, of course. At that time we were not en- 
gaged, but only friends; but I think I felt how things were, and 
that he felt the same as myself. I was in London then, and went to 
Cambridge to stay there with an Irish friend. She was at the univer- 
sity there then. At that time no communication was allowed with 
our men in jail whatever. I found out from Mr. Laurence Ginnell, 
the Irish M. P., and he told me that he had seen some of the men 
and he thought that my husband was in Shrewsbury. I met a police- 
man at the station and asked him where the men were, and he said 
that the military had charge of them, and told me to ask a soldier. 
I asked a soldier and he said they had gone, and that nobody would 
ever know where they had gone. 

ENGAGED AND MARRIED IN INTERNMENT CAMP 

I felt very badly. I did not know what to do. And that night I 
heard from him. They had been sent up to Bromyard in Hereford- 
shire. And I went up to see him. And we really became engaged 
that night. 

Q. He was in jail then? 

A. Yes, he was the same as in jail. He was confined to a certain 
area, and could not go out of it. 

Q. He was interned? 

A. He was interned, yes. 

Q. What date was that? 

A. That would be, — we were engaged on the third of March. 

Q. And how long was he interned after that time? 

A. He was there until after we were married. 

Q. And when were you married? 

A. About a fortnight in June. 

Q. And how long did you remain in England? 

A. We had to remain in England for a time after that. Bui 
although we were in England, we were married by an Irish priest, 
Father Augustine. You have had him over here. And we were 
married in our own language, the Irish language. 

Q. And that was on what date? 

A. The ninth of June, 1917. 

Q. And you went back to Ireland when? 

A BRIEF RESPITE BETWEEN ARRESTS 

A. About a fortnight after that. The men were released, those 
who were interned, and we all went back to Ireland at that time. 



272 

I went back to Ireland with him, and then we went off in the country 
together. And that time was about the only one that we had to- 
gether. 

Q. How lonjj, did you remain there'.'' 

A. For some time. 

Q. Where were you? 

A. At Ballingeary, in County Cork, a very, very beautiful place 
out in the country where they still do things in the old Irish way. 
They do not know English there yet, I am glad to say, and they are 
very much better off for it. 

Q. Where did you go from Ballingeary? 

A. We returned to Cork. 

Q. How long, then, did you remain at Cork? 

A. About three months. And then my husband had to go up to 
Dublin to look after his affairs, but he did not stay there. 

Q. He came back to Cork then? 

A. Yes, he came back to Cork and tried to settle clown, and it 
was while we were there, in the house that we had just got, that he 
was arrested. 

Q. He was arrested? 

A. Yes, he was arrested in November at two-thirty o'clock in the 
morning by seven policemen. 

Q. Were you there then? 

A. Yes, I was. 

Q. How was he arrested? 

A. They came to the house for him and took him, and although 
it was but so very early in the morning, they were afraid to take him 
through the streets of the city where someone might see them. And 
although my husband had lived in Cork all his life and knew the 
city well, they went in such a round-about way that he said he did 
not know some of the streets through which they took him. 

Q. What was the charge on which they arrested him? 

A. Wearing a uniform of the Irish Republican Army. 

THE FIRST HUNGER STRIKE 

Q. Your husband was taken to prison and went on a hunger 
strike? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long did your husband go without food? 

A. He went without food for three clays. 

Q. That was at what time? 

A. That was just before Christmas. 



273 

Q. 1917? 

A. Yes, 1917. He was at home for Christmas. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was that the hunger strike that the Irish 
prisoners all demanded that a hearing he given them and charges 
produced or that they he freed? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. F. P. Walsh: That was not the Mountjoy hunger strike? 

A. no. This was in Cork. 

Q. There was a large hunger strike later in Mountjoy? 

A. yes, there was. 

Q. About how many went on this strike? 

A. About twenty, I think. 

Q. And they all went without food for several days? 

A. Yes, they did. After six weeks' imprisonment they went on 
hunger strike to protest against not being treated as prisoners of 
war. 

Q. And they were released by the Christmas amnesty? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And how long after this was he again arrested? 

A CHRISTMAS TOGETHER BREAKS SUCCESSION 
OF ARRESTS 

A. I want to say that this was the only Christmas I ever had my 
husband for. It was the only Christmas that we were together. He 
was arrested again in the beginning of March. 

Q. 1917? 

A. 1918. I went up to Dublin to rest, and he went up with me 
to keep me company. We arrived in Dublin about two, and three 
of these G Division men came and arrested him about six. I never 
speak to these people at all, because I think it is better not to. But 
this time I had to. I asked them where they were taking my hus- 
band, and they would not tell me. They twisted and twisted, and 
said, "0 it's uncertain." I knew very well that they knew, because 
they were men high up. I kept after them, and two of the men said 
they would come back the next morning and tell me where my hus- 
band was taken to. 

Q. Where was he taken? 

A. He was taken to the Bridewell in Dublin. It was a terrible 
place. 

Q. Where is the Bridewell located? 

A. There are several Bridewells in Dublin. This Bridewell was 
war the Four Courts in Dublin. 



274 

Q. Describe "this place. 

A. The men were not treated like human beings there. They 
had no mattresses, no bedclothing, no anything. And what struck 
me as most terrible was that they had sort of round holes in the 
doors, and the prisoners could just stick their heads through. And 
some of them were mere boys there in that frightful place. 

Q. How long was your husband there? 

A. He was taken away the next morning to Belfast. And those 
men came back the next morning and would give me no information 
whatever. And there I was, not knowing where to look nor what to 
do. And then I learned he was at Belfast. He was in jail there for 
about three weeks, and then he was removed to Dundalk. 

Q. How long was he in Dundalk? 

A. He was there until the beginning of September. 

Q. From what date? 

A. From about the middle of March. 

BABY FIRST SEES HER FATHER IN JAIL 

Q. What time was Maura born? 

A. Well, he was up in Dundalk. Of course, I was in Belfast 
first, and then I was in Dundalk until I had to go home, — until the 
baby was about to be born. My husband wished that she should be 
born in Cork, his native city. He said that she might have to work 
for Ireland, and he wanted her to be born there. I went home the 
end of May, and she was born the twenty-first of June. 

Q. When did your husband first see her? 

A. He was in Dundalk when she was born, but he was moved to 
Belfast soon afterwards, and we had to take her up there to see her 
father, because, although his sentence would be completed soon, they 
had at that time taken to arresting people on the door of the jail 
just as they were walking out on finishing their sentence, and then 
deporting them to England without any charge at all. 

Q. What was your husband's sentence on the original charge 
against him? 

A. That was the sentence against him just after we were married. 
He got six months f,or wearing a uniform of the Irish Republican 
Army. 

Q. Did your husband have any official position in it then? 

A. Yes, he was a commandant in the Irish Army at that time. 

Q. You say you went up to be there at the time of his release? 

A. Yes, I went up there, for we knew that probably he would 
be deported to England like the others, and that was the reason that 



275 

I took the baby up; because if he was deported to England I might 
not be allowed to see him at all, and he might never see his little 
daughter. I was staying a good distance from the prison, because I 
thought it would be better to be where I was when I stayed in Bel- 
fast before, because the lady there liked children. 

Q. How old was the baby? 

A. She was six weeks old. We left Cork at three, and we did 
not get to Belfast until half past ten at night. My sister-in-law went 
with me, — not this one, but the other sister-in-law. Of course a 
long trip like that was not very good for the baby, as your wife can 
tell you. 

Q. How long did you stay there? 

A. About a fortnight. She used to be taken into the prison 
every day. I don't suppose anyone so young had ever been taken 
into that prison before. She was so young. Her father, of course, 
was delighted to see her. If he had been allowed to act according 
to his interests and desires, he would have stayed at home with the 
baby and me. He liked his home. That is, he would have liked to 
do that if Ireland had been free. 

Q. When did he return home? 

RE-ARRESTED AT JAIL GATE 

A. 0, you see he was arrested just as he was walking out of the 
jail, as we expected. 

Q. Were you there? 

A. He did not wish me to be present, because the police might 
pull me back and hurt me, as they often do in Ireland. 

Q. WTiere did you go? 

A. I went back to Cork, and I was there when he was deported. 

Q. What was that date? 

A. About the beginning of September. About the fourth of 
September, I think. 

Q. Where was he taken? 

A. He was taken to Lincoln. President de Valera was there at 
that time. He was sent there earlier than my husband. 

Q. Did you visit him there? 

A. I was not allowed to see him. I had practically no com- 
munication with him at that time because the letters I sent him had 
to go through the prison authorities and through the English au- 
thorities at London also. 

Q. How long did that endure? 

A. From September to the beginning of March. 



276 

Q. When did you again see your husband? 

A. In March. 

Q. He returned to Cork? 

A. Yes, to Cork. He was released before the others a little bit 
on parole, because I had the influenza. He got a week on parole, 
and by the time that was up he was released. He expected that they 
intended to release him or they would not have let him be with me 
then. Because, you see, when the baby was born he was in Ireland. 

Q. Did he attempt to be paroled at the time of the birth of the 
baby? 

A. He would have liked to, of course. 

Q. Was any effort made that you know of? 

A. Not that I know of. Of course I was ill at the time. 

Q. What was the date of his release from prison that you 
spoke of? 

A. In March, 1919. 

Q. Who was Lord Mayor of Cork at that time? Was it before 
the election of Mr. MacCurtain? 

A. Oh, yes. It was Mr. Butterfield who was Lord Mayor then. 

Q. Was he arrested from that time down to the time he was 
elected Lord Mayor of Cork? 

A. No, he was not. 

ELECTED LORD MAYOR OF CORK TO SUCCEED 
MURDERED FRIEND 

Q. I wish you would detail what took place from that time to 
the time he was elected Lord Mayor of Cork. The elections inter- 
vened ? 

A. Yes, they did, while my husband was still in Lincoln Prison. 

Q. Was he elected? 

A. Yes, he was. 

Q. He was a candidate from where? 

A. He was a candidate from Mid Cork. 

Q. Is that a part of the county of Cork? 

A. Oh, yes. That was the place where my husband's family 
was from. That was the place where we spent our honeymoon — 
because what time we spent in England when we were married we 
did not count as a honeymoon. It was when we got back to Ballin- 
geary, when he came back that time when he was released. The 
little girl was about nine months old. We were afraid she would 
begin to speak then, and her father wanted her to learn Irish. I 
did not know very much Irish at that time. My husband knew it 



277 

very, very well, but I did not know much. I had not made much 
headway with it. So 1 went down to that place I >p<>kc of. which 
is the Irish-speaking district. 

Q. For how long? 

A. For seven months. I think it was. 

Of course, in the country almost everybody knows Irish. Every- 
body knew Irish before the English came into the country, but in 
the towns the Irish language had died out a bit, and only the old 
folks knew it. We had this ring (indicating small gold circle on 
dress). You can get this ring when you sign a paper and say that 
you will not speak any English to anybody else who has this ring. 
And after I was back in Ballingeary awhile I got this ring. And 
after I got it, I never spoke a word of English to my husband or 
to the baby. 

Q. The baby is how old? 

A. About two and one-half years, sir. 

Q. And she speaks Irish? 

A. Yes, Irish. In this district where I was, there are a lot of 
tourists, and they speak English, of course. But for the last three 
months I was there I never spoke a word of English to anybody. 
Of course, my husband was there then, and he never spoke a word 
of English either. We gave one of these rings to the baby when 
she was born, so that she would always speak her own language. 
We had to take it away from her because she put it in her mouth, 
but I think it is time to give it to her again. 

Q. When did you return to Cork? 

A. November, 1919. I should like to say that while we were 
in Ballingeary the English soldiers and police twice raided the 
house we were living in at 4 o'clock in the morning. Luckily my 
husband was not there either time. He used to go back and forth 
from Cork. 

Q. Did you vote at the election? 

A. No, I did not. 

Q. They held a general election, however, at which all the men 
and women of Cork were entitled to vote? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And they did vote? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. Where were you at the time? 

A. I was in Cork, but I was ill. 

Q. What is the age of the franchise for women? 

A. I do not know. My sister-in-law can tell you that better 
than I can. 



278 

Q. It is thirty, I understand. 

A. Yes, I think so. 

Q. You are still an infant, so far as the franchise is concerned? 

A. Yes. 

Q. In this general election there was a full and free vote for 
members of the Council? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Do you recall the number of candidates voted on at that 
time? 

A. About thirty, I think. 

Miss Mary MacSwiney: There were more than that, about 
sixty-six. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Miss MacSwiney says sixty-six. 

The Witness: Yes, I don't know much about it. 

Q. Following that election who was elected mayor of Cork? 

A. Mayor MacCurtain. 

Q. And he was a friend of your husband? 

A. Yes, indeed; a lifelong friend. Mrs. MacCurtain used to 
tell me that if my husband was a girl she would be jealous of him, 
because they were together for so long a time, and planned and 
worked for Ireland together. 

Q. Were you in Cork at the time of the death of Lord Mayor 
MacCurtain? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Were you there at the inquest? 

A. I was in Cork, but I was very ill at the time. 

Q. So you had better leave that to your sister-in-law? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Just describe the events leading up to the death of your 
husband. After the death of Lord Mayor MacCurtain, your hus- 
band was elected Lord Mayor of Cork? 

A. Yes, he was. 

Q. And you were not present when he was invested with office? 

A. No. 

Q. How long was he Lord Mayor of Cork before his arrest? 

A. About six months. 

HUSBAND DARE NOT STAY AT HOME 

Q. And were you in Cork all that time? 

A. We came back to Cork before the election, and we got 
another house. We gave up the other house. But my husband 
could not stay there nights. 



279 

Q. Why? 

A. Because he would be arrested. The English police and sol- 
diers would arrest him. For years he has had to do that. He really 
could not be with me at all. He could not be where they might find 
him nights. I stayed with friends, cousins of my husband. The 
house was a little bit out of the way, a side house, and he could 
come there occasionally, but always at a very great risk for fear 
of being arrested. The baby was nearly two years old then, but 
she did not see much of her father. And she was awfully fond 
of him. He had a telephone in his office when he was made Lord 
Mayor, in his office at the City Hall. And I used to speak to him 
on the telephone. Sometimes I was speaking to other people, but 
whoever I was speaking to on the telephone, the baby would shout 
and snatch the receiver out of my hand and think it was her father, 
and she would whisper, just whisper to him. She loved him and 
he loved her, and wanted to be with her more than anything else. 

CHARACTER, EDUCATION, AND ACHIEVEMENTS 
OF TERENCE MACSWINEY 

Q. Your husband was a literary man, I believe? 

A. Yes, he was. He wrote a lot. He wrote some very excellent 
poems and plays. 

Q. You might describe him, his inclinations, age, appearance, 
and so forth. 

A. I think the chief characteristic of my husband — apart from 
his love of Ireland, which was above everything else — was his love 
of people, his charity. He never said a word against anybody. I 
never heard him say a word against his worst enemies. I will go 
into that a little later on when describing him at Brixton. I remem- 
ber that when he was in Wakefield, a few of them were put into 
solitary confinement, and they thought that surely they would be 
shot, because some others had been shot who were in solitary con- 
finement. And even then, when he expected death, he would not 
say anything harsh against the English. 

Q. How tall was he? 

A. Fairly tall. 

Q. Dark complexion? 

A. Yes, very dark, with black hair — a lot of it, with one big 
lock that was always getting over his face. We used to tease him 
about that lock of hair. He was very good looking, I think. 

Q. Of course you were familiar with what he wrote? 

A. Oh, yes, I was, 



280 

Q. What was it, in a general way? Did he write verse? 

A. Oh, yes; he was more of a poet than anything else, I think. 

Q. And did that go back to his young manhood? 

A. Oh, yes. When he was about thirteen or fourteen he wrote 
some beautiful things, some of his most beautiful things. My hus- 
band wrote plays, too. 

Q. What was his education? 

A. He was educated at the North Monastery in Cork, the Chris- 
tian Brothers in Cork. But of course he educated himself, like most 
Irish people do. Of course you will hear about that from my 
sister-in-law. My husband's father died when he was fifteen, and 
he had to be taken away from school and go into business. And 
so he studied at nights, although he was working hard from eight- 
thirty in the morning until six. 

Q. What was his business? 

A. He was an accountant in Cork. At first he used to stay up 
most of the night and study, but he found that was very bad for 
him and he got headaches and the like. And then he used to come 
home and have tea and go to bed, and then get up about two in the 
morning and study. And when I heard that, I thought that a man 
like that could do anything. At first he would have a fire, but he 
found that that would make him sleepy, so that even in cold 
weather, in the winter, he would be without a fire. And he studied 
like that until he got his degree. 

Q. What degree did he get? 

A. The degree from the Royal University of Ireland. 

Q. Just describe his election as Lord Mayor of Cork. 

A. I think my sister-in-law could tell you that better, because 
I was not well at the time. 

Q. But just a general idea — what he told you about it. He 
expected to be elected Lord Mayor? 

A. Of course he thought he would be. He knew it was a very 
dangerous post, after what had happened to his predecessor. Mayor 
MacCurtain was his greatest friend, I might say, and it was his 
duty to fill his place. 

Q. Did you have any conversation with him about it? 

A. Not very much, because I was ill at the time. 

PREDECESSOR MURDERED IN HIS OWN HOME 

Q. Briefly, for the record, tell what did happen to his prede- 
cessor. 

A. He was at home one night in his own house. 
Q. What was his name? 



281 

A. Thomas MacCurtain. He was a very quiet sort of man, and 
just like my husband, he would have liked to be at home with his 
wife and children all the time. He had five children, very sweet 
little children. One was only a year old. He was at home one 
night, sleeping with his wife and children, and his sisters-in-law 
were also there. And there was a knock at the door and his wife 
went to the door — the men do not answer the door at night in Ire- 
land, for they might be shot. The men broke into the house and 
pinioned her arms, and went upstairs and shot the Lord Mayor. 

Q. In the presence of his wife? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Chairman Howe: At what hour? 

A. In the middle of the night. At a time when there would 
be nobody about. 

Q. Who did that? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh : Was it developed afterwards in the coroner's 
inquest who did the shooting of the Lord Mayor? 

A. Yes, it was. The police. 

Q. The British police? 

A. Yes, of course, the British police in Ireland, but at the orders 
of their government. 

Q. The coroner's jury found that Mayor MacCurtain was killed 
by the Irish police under orders from the British government? 

A. Yes, the Irish police, being the English forces. I know you 
all understand that. 

Q. How long after the killing of Lord Mayor MacCurtain was 
your husband elected? 

A. Almost immediately afterwards, when the funeral and all 
that was over. 

BESET BY DANGER IN PUBLIC DUTIES AND 
PRIVATE LIFE 

Q. And during the time that he was Lord Mayor of Cork did 
he live at home? 

A. He could not. 

Q. He was still pursued and had to live in the homes of other 
people? 

A. Yes. It was very much worse after he was Lord Mayor of 
Cork than it was ever before. 

Q. Did the corporation meet from time to time? 

A. Oh, yes, sir. 

Q. And did he preside at the meetings? 



282 

A. Certainly. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did they meet in the town hall? 

A. Yes, in the city hall. It was not secret. Anybody could 
go in. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: It might be interesting to know why they 
did not arrest the Lord Mayor when they were meeting? 

A. I do not know. Perhaps they were afraid of public opinion. 

Q. As a matter of fact, the police do not work in the daytime? 
They expect to surprise these men in their homes and in their beds? 

A. Oh, yes. I think that they are afraid of doing it in a public 
place. 

Q. Senator Norris: He thought he would be arrested or mur- 
dered if he stayed in his own home? 

A. Oh, yes. He never even went about alone. He could not. 
Someone went with him, not so much to guard him as to identify 
anyone who might attack him. A Volunteer went with him or I 
often went with him. 

Q. Chairman Howe: And that was the reason they did not do 
it in public. 

A. Yes. Of course they did not want to be identified. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: And furthermore it would create a hostile 
popular demonstration to shoot him in public. 

A. Oh, yes; certainly it would. They would not shoot him 
where they might be identified. I could identify an assailant as 
well as anybody else, so I was often with him. 

SAW HUSBAND SELDOM BECAUSE OF DANGER 

Q. Just give us your own general description of his life after 
that. 

A. As I told you before, since the Christmas before, after I came 
back from the country, I lived with distant relations and friends, 
because, as I told you, we could not stay in a house of our own 
because he could never be there at all, and I could not very well 
be there on account of the raids and that sort of thing going on. 
And so I saw my husband sometimes, because I was in the house 
of friends, but indeed very, very seldom, and always at a very great 
risk. Sometimes he would come up after dark, because it was a 
little out-of-the-way place, a little outside of the city. That was 
better. And then he would come after dark and go away the first 
thing in the morning. The only meal I could have him for was 
breakfast, and that on rare occasions. I hardly ever saw my hus- 
band at all, to tell the truth. 



283 

Q. And that continued for six months after he was elected Lord 
Mayor? 

A. Oh, yes, of course; ever since we were married. But it was 
very, very much worse after he was elected Lord Mayor. 

Q. Is there anything else that you would like to tell the Com- 
mission after he was elected Lord Mayor? 

A. I do not think so. 

THE FINAL ARREST 

Q. When was your husband arrested the last time? 

A. He was arrested on the twelfth of August. 

Q. Where were you at that time? 

A. I was in Cork on the twelfth of August, and at two o'clock 
on that day I and my little girl went down to the seaside. 

Q. That was the twelfth of August, 1920? 

A. Yes. I took the baby down to the seaside. There was no 
one along there besides ourselves. It was to another Irish-speaking 
district. 

Q. About how far from Cork? 

A. It was to Youghal. You took the train to the station, and 
then it was a short distance — on a bicycle about five minutes — up 
to the town. It is an out-of-the-way place not very far from Cork. 
I did not know about my husband's arrest until the next morning, 
when a friend came over with the paper and told me that he was 
arrested the night before, about seven o'clock. 

Q. What did you do then? 

A. What could I do? There was nobody to mind the baby 
except myself. I had nobody to take her except strangers, and she 
would not go to them. My sister-in-law here came down to take 
care of the baby. She came down the next day, on Saturday. They 
had tried to see my husband — both of my sisters-in-law tried to see 
him. He had been arrested and taken to the military barracks, and 
they were not allowed to see him. They could not see him until 
Saturday morning. He was then on hunger strike. 

Q. When did you go to Cork? 

A. I did not go to Cork until Monday. I went up to my sister- 
in-law's house. This sister-in-law (indicating Miss Mary Mac- 
Swiney) was down at the seashore taking care of the baby. That 
was the day of the trial. 



284 

BEGINNING OF FATAL HUNGER STRIKE 

Q. Did you see him before the trial? 

A. My sister-in-law and myself went up to the barraeks. That 
was where he was to be tried. A big military lorry came up, a 
very large one. I never saw so many soldiers in a military lorry 
in my life before. My husband was sitting in the center of them 
on a chair. That was Monday morning. He had been on a hunger 
strike since the morning of his arrest on Thursday. 

Q. Had you been advised of that? 

A. Yes. I need not tell you that he was very weak. It seemed 
such a cruel thing to have so many armed men guarding a weak 
and absolutely unarmed man. 

Q. Was he all alone in the lorry? 

A. Yes, there were no other prisoners. He was in very great 
pain. He looked it. I think that was one of the worst times for 
me. From the morning that I heard my husband was on a hunger 
strike, I believed that he would die. I felt terrible on that day 
when I saw him, because I knew he was in pain, and it was an 
awful thing that I could not give him anything to eat, for of course 
it was part of my duty that I should look after all his wants. 

TRIAL BY COURT-MARTIAL 

First of all, they took him up very high stairs to a place where 
they were going to try him; and then they changed and took him 
down again. I saw by his face that he was suffering, and I said to 
one of the soldiers, could they not give him a chair, because he had 
been without food for so long. That is one of the worst times in 
a hunger strike — the first few days — because it is so painful. I 
was speaking to him in Irish and they did not interfere. He told 
me that he felt himself that he would be sentenced, and that he 
would be deported to England, and that the others arrested with 
him would get out. But of course he was pleased with that. He 
wanted to suffer for everybody else's wrongs. 

Q. Had he stated his intentions at any time to you? 

A. Oh, yes, he did. He felt that what might happen to him was 
very unimportant to whatever he could do to help Ireland. 

Q. Anything that you think would interest the Commission, and 
that you would like to tell, about what happened to your husband, 
just tell the Commission. 

A. I think I would like to describe the trial. Of course I always 
knew what my husband's motives and intentions were. He had no 
other idea in his head but to die for his country if need be. 



285 

Q. Describe the trial then. 

A. Might I read my husband's speech at this trial? It is quite 
short. 

Q. Yes, certainly. Did he make it in the beginning of the trial? 

A. No. We went upstairs then. There were several soldiers 
standing around him armed to the teeth. The room was full of 
soldiers. 

Q. Before what sort of a court was he tried? 

A. A court-martial — soldier-. 

Q. In uniform? 

A. Oh, yes. One of them was presiding. 

Q. How many judges? 

A. Three judges — three soldiers. 

Q. How long a time did the trial last? 

A. For three hours. They kept him there for such petty things. 

Q. Did he make a statement? 

A. Yes, he did. I will read you this. First of all, when they 
brought the charges against him, they asked him if he had anything 
to say. He said that if he was an ordinary individual, like he was 
before he was elected, he would not say anything at all. He would 
disregard the charges, because he never recognized England's courts, 
which have no right to function in Ireland. But he said that because 
he was Lord Mayor of the city, he represented more than himself, 
and that was why he spoke. He said this more or less at the end 
of the charges. 

Q. What was the charge against him? 

A. There were three charges, one of which was that when they 
arrested him when they raided the city hall, they found in his desk 
the text of a speech he had made when he was made Lord Mayor. 
Of course this was made six months before, and it had been pub- 
lished in all the papers, and so if there was anything objectionable 
in it, they could have mentioned it sooner. As a matter of fact, he 
had a right to make any speech in Ireland that he liked. 

Q. Were there any other charges? 

A. Yes, he was charged with having the code used by the police. 

Q. And yet he was the chief magistrate of the city? 

A. Yes. What he said was that he was the chief magistrate, 
and he had the right to have anything like that that he wanted. He 
said the English had no right to have such a code. He said it was 
illegal for any citizen of the Irish republic to have such a code 
without his permission. 

Q. In the city of Cork? 

A. In the city of Cork, yes. 



286 

Q. There was a third charge? 

A. Yes, there was. It was a resolution that was passed by the 
corporation recognizing Dail Eireann and renouncing allegiance to 
England. It was passed by every public body all over Ireland, and 
if they wanted to arrest everybody who had passed that, they simply 
could not do it, because the jails could not hold them. 

Q. There was no other charge? 

A. That was all. Shall I read this (indicating paper)? 

The Commissioners: Yes, please. 

STATEMENT OF LORD MAYOR AT THE TRIAL 

The Witness (reading) : 

"We see in the manner in which the late Lord Mayor was mur- 
dered an attempt to terrify us all. Our first duty is to answer that 
threat in the only fitting manner: to show ourselves unterrified, 
cool, and inflexible for the fulfillment of our chief purpose — the 
establishment of the independence and the integrity of our country 
and the peace and the happiness of the Irish Republic. To that 
end I am here. This contest on our side is not one of rivalry or 
vengeance, but of endurance." 

I would like to say something about that. My husband, as I said 
before, was essentially charitable — a very charitable man. It was 
his chief characteristic. He hadn't anything like vengeance in him. 
And certainly he wished for nothing more than that the English 
would be gone out of our country and that we could be good friends 
with them then. 

"It is not those who can inflict the most, but those who can suffer 
the most, who will conquer, though we do not abrogate our function 
to demand that murderers and evil-doers be punished for their 
crimes. It is conceivable that the army of occupation could stop 
our functioning for a time. Then it becomes simply a question of 
endurance. Those whose faith is strong will endure to the end in 
triumph." 

Well, of course, my husband was one of the first in Ireland who 
started this movement, and a great many people were against it 
then; they did not believe that we could be free from England. In 
Dublin the Irish people were always better off than in Cork, for 
in Cork they had a very hard time in the beginning. So only for 
my husband's great faith in our country and his faith that they 
would win out, I don't suppose that we would be very far along 
today. 



287 

"God is over us, and in His divine intervention we must have 
perfect trust. 

"Anyone surveying the events in Ireland in the past five years 
must see that it is approaching a miracle how our country has been 
preserved during a persecution unexampled in history, culminating 
in the murder of the head of our great city. You among us who 
have no vision have been led astray by false prophets. I will give 
a recent example. Only last week in our city a judge, acting for 
English usurpation in Ireland and speaking in the presumptuous 
manner of such people, ventured to lecture us and uttered this 
pagan sentiment: 'There is no beauty in liberty that comes to us 
in innocent blood.' At one stroke this judge would shatter the 
foundations of Christianity by denying beauty to that spiritual 
liberty that comes to us dripping in the blood of Christ crucified. 
He, by His voluntary sacrifice on Calvary, delivered us from the 
domination of the devil when the pall of evil was closing down 
and darkening the world. The liberty for which we strive today is 
a sacred thing, inseparably entwined with that spiritual liberty for 
which the Savior of man died and which is the foundation of all 
just government. Because it is sacred, and death for it is akin to 
the sacrifice on Calvary, following far off and yet constant to that 
divine example, in every generation our best and bravest have died. 
Sometimes in our grief we cry out the foolish and unthinking words, 
'The sacrifice is too great.' 

"It is not we who take innocent blood, but we offer it, sustained 
by the example of our immortal dead and that divine example which 
inspires us all for the redemption of our country. Facing our 
enemy, we must declare our attitude simply. We see in their regime 
a thing of evil incarnate. With it there can be no parley any more 
than there can be truce with the powers of Hell. We ask no mercy 
and we will accept no compromise. 

"The civilized world dare not look on indifferent while new 
tortures are being prepared for our country, or they will see under- 
mined the pillars of their own government and the world involved 
in unimaginable anarchy. But if the rulers of earth fail us, we still 
have refuge in the Ruler of Heaven, and though to some the judg- 
ments of God seem slow, they never fail, and when they fall they 
are overwhelming." 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now that was the speech which your hus- 
band delivered as his inaugural speech on being made Lord Mayor 
of Cork? 

A. No. I have that here also. 



288 

Q. Senator Norris: This is the speech that he delivered at his 
trial? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: This is the speech, is it not — if it is not, correct 
me — that your husband made at his inaugural as Lord Mayor of 
Cork, and the document with which he was charged with having 
in his possession which they claimed to be seditious? 

A. That was practically the same. This was the speech that he 
made at his trial. 

Q. Have you another one there? 

A. Yes. This was the speech he made when he was made Lord 
Mayor (indicating another paper). 

Q. He delivered this speech at the trial? 

A. Yes, practically the same thing. 

I wish to say something else. You know this speech was one 
of the charges against him. Of course, one of the soldiers, the 
president of the court, read the speech, and even coming from him, 
it made a very great impression on everybody there. And even 
on the soldiers — no matter who they were — it impressed everybody. 

RECONCILED TO HUSBAND'S DEATH 

As I told you, I think I felt that day more myself than at any 
other time. Because now I felt that my husband was going to die. 
After that I was accustomed to it. The shock was more in the 
beginning for me. Of course I was upset, although I did not mean 
to be. But when he spoke himself, he made me feel all right. You 
have heard, I suppose, of the message that he sent to the men of 
Cork, that when we are doing work for Ireland, it should be not 
in tears but in joy. And so I think that it is Ireland that has kept 
me up all through. That is the only thing. There has been noth- 
ing else. 

Q. When was he removed from Cork? 

A. He was removed that night, or at four o'clock the next morn- 
ing, I believe. 

Q. Senator Norris: What was the result of the trial? 

A. He was found guilty by the court-martial. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: And sentenced to what? 

A. To two years. Of course he told them then that it meant 
nothing what his sentence was, because in a month's time he would 
be free, either alive or dead. None of us dreamed that it would be 
a month. I certainly did not think it would be more than a fort- 
night at the outside, and I did not think it would be that much. 

Q. You say that after you heard his speech you were reconciled? 



289 

A. Of course I was always reconciled, but after that I felt quite 
happy about his work. 

DEPORTATION AND IMPRISONMENT IN LONDON 

Q. You say you went to London? 

A. Yes, but I was able to speak to him after the trial. I asked 
one of the officers going out where they were going to take him. 
Of course he knew. He did not deny that he knew, but you know 
they are very petty. He would not tell me anything. My husband 
was taken off that night in the state he was in on a submarine. 1 
They were afraid to take him from Cork during the day. He was 
taken to Pembroke in the submarine, and arrived there about two 
o'clock in the afternoon, and he was kept waiting until about six 
o'clock. Of course his sufferings were terrible coming over in a 
submarine. In an ordinary boat it would have been very different. 
He arrived in London about half-past two in the morning. Thev 
were afraid to take him there during the day. It was put in the 
London papers at first that he did arrive during the day. But that 
was a lie. And then he was taken to Brixton prison. My sister- 
in-law who is here went over first. My mother was not there, so 
she could not take the baby for me. Some people with whom I 
had been staying since Christmas, who were very kind to me, took 
it. I left on Saturday morning, and went straightway to see my 
husband. 

Q. Where was he then? 

A. In Brixton prison. 

PRISON DOCTORS SEEK TO INDUCE HER TO END 
HUSBAND'S HUNGER STRIKE 

Before I saw him one of the doctors of the prison spoke to me. 
He was not the head doctor. This was Dr. Higson. Of course he 
was an Englishman. He said to me, "You will see your husband 
in a few minutes, and will you not try to get him to take food?" 
He said he hoped I would see the foolishness of what he was doing. 
The greatest danger was not if he lost his life, but if he was injured 
for life. And he said, of course, that any injury which he would 
receive from the hunger strike might harm our children. I told 
him that I understood that, and it was perfectly true, and I under- 



1 The witness referred to a torpedo boat destroyer. See correction by 
Miss Mary MacSwiney, page 310. 



290 

stood the harm of going without food, and of course from a health 
point of view I quite agreed with him; but that I did not interfere 
with my husband in anything, especially in a matter of conscience; 
and each one was the best judge in matters of conscience of what 
he should do. He could not say very much to that. I saw my 
husband then. I saw a great change in him. He looked very badly 
indeed. 

Then we used to see him every day. And after a bit, I think it 
was about a fortnight, the head doctor came back. He had been 
away. And of course he often asked me to ask my husband to take 
food. We never had anything like scenes, because I do not give 
people opportunity to do that, to have a fight or anything like 
scenes. "We were always very civil to each other. But he thought 
it was utter foolishness for a man to refuse to eat when he always 
had food before him. Being an Englishman, he could not under- 
stand why a man should die for a principle. But the subordinate 
doctor, I must say, was more sympathetic. He never urged me to 
get my husband to take food after that one time when he told me 
what it would mean for our children, which I think from an Eng- 
lish doctor's point of view I did not mind his putting before me. 
He did not say much more to me after that, but the other ones did. 
The specialist, Sir Norman Moore, came in to see him too, and he 
was also quite sympathetic. 

Q. Did you see your husband every day? 

A. I saw him every day. After a bit he did not like to be there 
without some one of us. My brother-in-law came over, and his 
other sister afterwards. For of course we were afraid that he would 
die any moment. Nothing but his faith kept him alive. There is 
no doubt about that. He did not like to be left alone, so one of us 
would go in the morning, and another at noon, and another in the 
evening, and like that. 

HIS WISH TO DIE FOR IRELAND 

This went on for some time. My husband was perfectly peaceful 
and happy. I do not think I could have gone on like that if I had 
not seen him every day, because he absolutely radiated peace. He 
told me in the beginning that one reason that he was glad to be 
doing what he was doing was that he had not taken a part in any 
of the dangerous things in Ireland, except the rebellion, and of 
course they did not fight in Cork; and he hated their being in danger 
when he was not in any. But what could he do? So he told me 
that he felt what he was doing was as dangerous as anything, and 



291 

on account of that he was glad to do it. He always wished to die 
for his country. He never had any other thought. 

Things went on very much the same. We always saw him. After 
a bit they got two nurses for him, one for the day and the other 
for the night. 

My husband was very charitable, and he never said a word 
against anyone. The doctors and nurses told me that the only 
thing which he did say — he didn't like the head doctor — and he said 
once, "I am fed up with him." 

THE LAST FIVE DAYS: DOCTORS THREATEN 
FORCIBLE FEEDING 

Then it came to the Wednesday before he died. There isn't very 
much to tell up to that. Well, the Wednesday before he died, the 
news had already come that one of the hunger strikers in Cork was 
dead. Of course, the doctors had promised us that they would not 
feed him and would not put any food in his medicine or anything 
of that kind, but they said that if he became unconscious that they 
would feed him. 

Of course, if a person becomes unconscious, they are unconscious, 
and they have no will of their own; and they could do anything 
they liked with him. And so feeding him when he was unconscious 
was like feeding him when he was dead. Of course they did prom- 
ise not to feed him at all, or to make any attempt to forcibly feed 
him— it would have been forcible, as long as he was conscious. 
It was on Tuesday, the Tuesday before my husband died, the news 
came from Cork to London of the death of one of the hunger 
strikers there. Of course he had gone a bit longer than my husband. 
This frightened the doctors in the prison. One of them went to 
my husband on his usual visit, and he turned everybody out of the 
room, including the nurse, which was not usual, for she always re- 
mained there. One of my sisters-in-law was there at the time. When 
she went back into the room my husband was terribly upset, fright- 
fully upset, and he said that this doctor told him that he had to eat, 
he would make him eat. When I got there in the evening the other 
doctor, the second doctor, whom I do not think would have done a 
thing like that, was on duty. My sister-in-law said to him that Dr. 
Griffiths, the head doctor, had threatened to make my husband eat 
and had made him awfully uneasy that morning. When I went in 
my husband was quiet like usual, but looking very badly — worse 
than usual. 



292 
DELIRIUM 

The next morning I was in the office of the Self -Determination 
League in London. The papers wished to get hulletins, and your 
American papers, too, wished to get hulletins on my husband's con- 
dition every two hours. We were allowed to use the prison tele- 
phone^ — they did not make any difficulty at all whatever about it. 
All the news was sent out from the office of the Self-Determination 
League; and of course, if there was any news about my husband 
for us, we would get it there. I happened to be in there in the 
morning. My two brothers-in-law were in there too. I was told 
that a telephone message had come, and that they were afraid the 
news was bad. So I and my brothers-in-law went out to the prison 
with Mr. O'Brien, who is the president of the Self-Determina- 
tion League. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Mr. Arthur O'Brien? 

A. Mr. Arthur O'Brien, yes. Do you know him? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I know him very well. 

The Witness: So we went out, and when we got there we heard 
that my husband had become quite delirious. My sister-in-law — 
not this one, but the other' — was with him. There was hammering 
going on outside, and my husband said to her, "That is Dr. Griffiths' 
new treatment." She said, "Shall I stop it?" And he said, "No," 
and then went out of his head completely. She asked the warden 
to telephone to the office so we would know, and he was very reluc- 
tant to do it. It was half-past twelve when we got there. Both of 
my brothers-in-law and my sisters-in-law were there then. They 
said my husband was normal again. But when I went in I saw that 
he was not. He was fairly himself, but not completely. The others 
all went away then but myself and the sister-in-law. We remained 
there. And he said to me, "I want the nurse." The nurse was at 
her dinner. My husband always had a most extraordinary con- 
sideration for everybody, and when he asked for the nurse when 
she was at her dinner, I knew he was not right. Then they asked 
us to go outside the door. We always went outside the door when 
they asked us; we never made any difficulties about that. And we 
heard my husband shouting out, and we went in then, and he was 
sitting up in bed and shouting. It was the delirium, because before 
this he could not hardly move a finger, and he spoke only in a 
whisper. And he was sitting up in bed and crying quite strong 
and saying, "This nurse will not let me have my wife and sister." 



Miss Annie MacSwiney. 



293 

And we said, "Here we are," and he knew us perfectly well. That 
was the worst of it. And in other things he was as mad as could 
be. But one thing he said to me then, when I came into the room, 
I liked. He said, "Muriel, you have always stuck by me." And 
he was very bad then, and talked rubbish. He could not have been 
more mad than he was. I have seen mad people, and they were not 
worse. And then Dr. Higson came up, who had always acted like 
a gentleman to me. He stroked him and got him to lie down; but 
of course he went on throwing him arms about and talking. And 
then they gave him morphia, and then he got quieter, and in about 
an hour he was asleep. I stayed for quite a good time, but did 
not disturb him. 

FORBIDDEN ADMISSION TO DYING HUSBAND 

I must tell you this occurrence. I wanted to do the best I could 
and wanted to try to make him better, and did not know what 
to do. I used to speak to him a little, and then the nurse said, "I 
think it is better not to speak to him, because it disturbs him." And 
so from that time on I did not speak to him, thinking it might 
disturb him. In fact, I never spoke to him first because it was hard 
for him to respond. But if he spoke, I answered him back, because 
we did not want to cross him and offend him when he was ill. He 
would say to me, "This is awful for you because you have to stay 
here." And I said, "It is a better time than we have had since we 
were married or since you have been Lord Mayor, because I can 
be with you all the time." And then we laughed. Anyway, he got 
bad during the night. Of course I was not there. All up to that 
time, although my husband had got terribly emaciated, his mind 
was perfectly clear and anybody could recognize him, because the 
face is the last thing that the hunger strike affects. For instance, 
a friend of mine who was our bridesmaid stayed with me all the 
time I was in London. She did not ask to see him. She was very 
sensible. But he asked to see her when she was going home, and 
so she went to see him. She said she would have known him quite 
well, although of course it gave her a great shock to see him. Up 
to that time, although he was delirious, you would have known him. 
But the next morning when I went in, I would not have known him 
at all. He was very quiet, and only moved his hands a little bit. 
That was Wednesday he got bad. The next day was Thursday. On 
Friday I was there in the evening. Of course they started feeding 
him when he was unconscious. And the nurse used to do that. I 
know very well that as long as the nurse was there at all, she had 



294 

to do what the doctor told her, and I never interfered with her in 
any way. I would not have spoken to her while she was doing it, 
because I was at one side of the bed and she was at the other, and 
I might have disturbed my husband. He never understood anything 
that was going on about him, I know, but there was a chance that 
it might have disturbed him, so I never said anything to her at all. 
Well, on Friday I was there in the evening, and my brother-in-law, 
the one who was in New York, Peter, he was there with me. And 
then the doctor came in in the evening. This was the one, the 
head one, Dr. Griffiths. Of course I went out of the room. We both 
went out of the room. We always did when the doctor was there, 
naturally. When he came out he told the warder to tell me that 
we were not to go into the room any more, any of us; that we were 
not to go into the room at all. I must say that after he got very 
bad the nurse used to turn us out very often. So they now said 
also that we were not even to stay outside the door. You see, when 
we would go outside the room before, we used to stay outside the 
door always. And they also stopped up every little hole or window 
we could see through. The warder said we could not stay outside 
the door, and I said I wanted to speak to the doctor, and he went 
down and found him. And I asked him if he was dying, if he 
would not want his wife to be near him. And he said he would. 
And he said it was bad for us to be in the room, so many of us. 
And I said, "We will go out and only one stay." And then he laid 
it onto the nurse. He said the nurse said it was bad for so many 
of us to be in the room. And I said, "What harm have I done since 
I have been here with my husband?" And he said nothing. He 
could not tell me a single thing that I had done to harm my hus- 
band. After a bit — he was a very weak man, you see — he gave in. 
I suppose he got orders to do this from the Home Office, but he 
gave in. And he said I could go in there when the nurse permitted 
me to, and that I could stay outside the door. I said, "I cannot 
be here always, and what will we do when I cannot be here?" He 
said, "I cannot refuse you, because you are his wife." But he had 
refused me previously. But he said the others could come there, 
but they would have to stay downstairs, a long distance away, and 
could not stay outside the door. I said that the only conclusion 
we could come to when they kept us outside of my husband's room 
was that they were doing something they did not wish us to see. 
So he finally said that when I could not be there, I could name one 
of the others to stay with my husband when the nurse permitted. 
Then I went upstairs. There was another nurse there, a new one, 
and I asked her if it was true that she had said I was not to go into 



295 

my husband's room, and she said it was. And I put the same ques- 
tion to her I had put to the doctor; and she said, "No, you do not 
interfere with me. You have never interfered with me when I was 
feeding him. But I know you are against it, and it makes me 
nervous." They were feeding him. They were giving him two 
teaspoonfuls of liquid food. 

Q. When did they begin that? 

A. Five days before his death: That was Wednesday, and he 
died the following Monday. I said to her, "Of course, I can quite 
understand that as long as you are here, you have to do what the 
doctor tells you; but if I were you I would not take a case like this." 
She knew she was not doing right. But she said, "I have taken this 
case and I must see it out." But my husband never said a word 
against this nurse, never a word. 

I must tell you this, that she let me in the room just a few mo- 
ments at a time. I was just outside the room, but I hardly ever 
saw my husband at all. 

NEVER FED BY RELATIVES 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did the newspapers of Great Britain an- 
nounce that he was being fed? 

A. Yes, they did. 

Q. There were announcements in the American press that his 
relatives were feeding him. 

A. Yes, that was British propaganda. 

Q. Where did those announcements come from? 

A. From the British government. It was British propaganda. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: As a matter of fact, did his relatives at any 
time put food before him? 

A. Never. His relatives never did that. 

Q. Did the prison officials offer him food? 

A. Yes, always; it was always beside him. 

Q. Did they bring him fresh food? 

A. Oh, yes; it was milk and broth and things like that that he 
would have had if he got out. Food was always put before him. 

SISTER-IN-LAW REFUSED ADMISSION 

The next day was Saturday. My brother-in-law had been there 
with him through the night, and my sister-in-law was there to relieve 
him. I found her in the waiting room just inside the gate, and then 
she told me that they would not let her in; they had refused to let 



296 

her into the prison at all. The same sort of business that had been 
going on the night before. 

They would not let her out to telephone either, and she could not 
send any message to my brother-in-law either. He was accustomed 
to be relieved in the morning, after being there all night. I went 
upstairs immediately, and it was about ten-thirty, and the nurse 
would not let me in. 

FORBIDDEN USE OF TELEPHONE 

As I said, I had always telephoned about noon to Mr. O'Brien's 
office about the condition of my husband. They had never made 
the slightest objection to it. The clerk now said I could not use the 
telephone, and I said, "By whose orders?" And he said, "By the 
governor's order." And he said very politely that he would speak 
to the governor if I wished. And I said I would speak to him 
myself. And I went up to the governor and asked him, and he said 
it was his orders. And I said, "I wanted to know, because of course 
your government is murdering my husband. You are only an in- 
strument. But I want to know whether you are carrying out their 
orders." The governor said that we were using the telephone too 
much. I said we had never used the telephone much, and only 
with their permission. The deputy governor came up, and said 
we had always respected their wishes and had not used the telephone 
very much. He then had to admit it. I said another thing: "You 
must have got orders about this, so that they are stopping us from 
going in to see my husband." I think he was surprised at that, but 
he said, "You are very well treated here. You are using this place 
like a hotel, coming in here any moment you like." And I said, 
"This is hardly like a hotel. My husband does not wish to be 
here, and you are keeping him against his will." And he said, 
"Even in ordinary hospitals there are visiting hours, and you are 
not allowed to see your friends at any time." And I said, "In an 
ordinary hospital we would have put my husband there with people 
whom we trusted." I did not have any fight with him, but he had 
nothing to say. He sent a message up in the afternoon that if I had 
anything to telephone and wrote it on a piece of paper, they would 
send it. Of course you know what that would have meant. 

PERMITTED ONLY HALF-HOUR WITH DYING 

HUSBAND 

When my sister-in-law came in later, she was refused in the same 
manner. When I got back to the room the nurse let me in about 
half -past twelve, and then I was turned out again. 



297 

(Senator Thomas Walsh, of Montana, arrives and is escorted to 
the Commissioners' bench.) 

She let me in for half an hour, and then I was asked to go out. 
She made some excuse like she had to take his temperature. I 
expect she was feeding my husband. And then I was in again a 
half hour later. Then the head doctor, Dr. Griffiths, came in and 
asked the nurse to go out, and I went out too. So I had only about 
a half hour with my husband that day. As a matter of fact, it was 
the last day I saw him; but I think he may have half known me that 
day, because he smiled a little bit when I kissed him. I do not 
know, but I think he did. 

There was another thing about my husband that I want to men- 
tion. I think the hardest thing on him was being separated from 
his little daughter. And I asked him if he would like to have her 
over, and he said, "Oh, no; it would only be cruelty to have her 
over," and she would not recognize him if she saw him because he 
was so changed. 

That day Mr. O'Brien came up and took me to the Home Office, 
and we spoke to them there, protesting about the treatment of my 
sister-in-law and myself, and requesting them to let my husband's 
relatives be near him. Of course they refused; and they refused 
about the telephone point blank. There was no humanity in them 
whatever. 

The next morning was the first time that I collapsed at all. I had 
kept up until then and really felt very well. But the next morning 
I felt ill and could not go, and went to bed again. And in the 
afternoon, since I was about the only person that was allowed in 
the room, Mr. O'Brien took me down in a taxi. I opened the door 
and the nurse was there, and she said, "Would you wait outside a 
few minutes?" I had not been there at all that day, and my 
brother-in-law had not been there. I must tell you that the day 
before I had not been allowed in to see him until half-past twelve, 
although I had come about ten. This day the nurse said, "Would 
you wait just a little while?" They had a habit then of having a 
warder just inside the door. And I opened the door again in about 
five minutes and asked if I could go in, and he said he would ask 
the nurse, and she said no, she was taking his temperature. And in 
about five minutes more, about twenty minutes from the time I 
came, I sent in word again if I could see him, and she said no, I 
could not. And so I did not see my husband again until after his 
death. 



298 

The next day my brother-in-law 1 was there, and his chaplain, 
Father Dominick, and they saw him. He was dead, and he looked 
like a perfect martyr. 

THE INQUEST 

Shall I tell you about the inquest? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Yes. 

The Witness: That was on Wednesday. I was in bed after he 
died. But they thought it was important for me to be at the inquest, 
and I went. I was addressed by the coroner, who asked me my 
address. I was puzzled, because we had no address. We could not 
have a home. And I said, "Cork." And he said, "Cork is a big 
place." But that was the best I could do. He asked me my hus- 
band's profession, and I said, "An officer of the Irish Republican 
Army." And he said that was no profession. Being English, he 
could not understand why a man should have a profession when he 
was not working for money. And I said, "You have an army, and 
you have officers." And then I think he understood, quite. Of 
course I told him that my husband did not wish to die. And the 
specialist who had seen him, Sir Norman Moore, had said so too. 
I was glad that we called him in. I told them that as soon as my 
husband got out, he would take food and get better. He was only 
on hunger strike, as you know, as a protest for being arrested ille- 
gally; arrested by the forces of England in Ireland. It was illegal 
for them to arrest the Lord Mayor, the chief magistrate of the city 
of Cork. It was against the laws of the Irish Republic that they 
should do such a thing. 

HUSBAND'S BODY SECURED WITH DIFFICULTY 

When the inquest was over our solicitor asked the Crown solicitor 
for my husband's body. And he said, "Where is the funeral to take 
place?" And my brother-in-law said, "In Cork, of course." Then 
the chief solicitor said, "You cannot do that. You must get a 
permit to take his body out of England." And he said we should 
ask the governor. And we asked the governor and he referred us 
to the Home Office. And so Mr. O'Brien and Mr. MacDonald and 
I all went to the Home Office. We saw Mr. Shortt, and he hemmed 
and hawed and all that, but tried to evade telling us anything defi- 
nite. I never met a man who was a greater brute. He was not a 
gentleman, anyway not in his outside manner. He was just jesting 



John MacSwiney. 



299 

and laughing all the time. I said, "I understand that there was a 
technical difficulty about my husband's body coming with us, but 
I suppose there would be no difficulty." He said, "I know nothing 
at all about it." They all say that over there. And I said, "I sup- 
pose I can go and take my husband's body." And he then got 
afraid, and he said, "Oh, you cannot do that. There may be some 
law against it." And I said, "Will you find out what the law is? 
How long will it take you to do it?" He said, "I cannot tell you 
how long it may take — an hour or more. I don't know." I said, 
"Do you refuse to give me my husband's body?" And he said, 
"Oh, no; I cannot say that." 

One of Mr. Shortt's secretaries came out with us. I must say 
that he was a contrast to Mr. Shortt. He gave me a chair and asked 
me if I wanted to sit down. He said that if we would come back 
in an hour, he would see about it. He said they would make 
arrangements and perhaps give us a special boat to go to Dublin. 
Of course our arrangements had been made. When Mr. MacDonald 
saw him a little later, Mr. Shortt said it would be all right, and he 
was sorry there had been any delay, and of course it had absolutely 
nothing to do with him, and that we could take the body. My 
sister-in-law will tell you what happened afterwards and how they 
broke their word. 

THE SPIRIT OF THE WOMEN OF IRELAND 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Senator Walsh would like to ask you a few 
questions. 

Senator Walsh: I would like to ask you what the spirit of the 
Irish women in Ireland is about the establishment of the Irish 
Republic. 

A. Just what mine is and what my husband's was. Of course 
we all want our Republic and we want England gone, and there 
will not be peace in the world until we get it. 

Q. To what extent have the women organized and taken action? 

A. They have a society called the Cumann na niBan. That is 
a society of women like the Red Cross. But I think my sister-in-law 
can tell you more about that than I can. Especially after the baby 
came, I minded the baby myself. 

PRESENT SUFFERINGS OF PEOPLE: NEED FOR 

RELIEF 

Q. Do you know anything about the present sufferings of the 
people, especially among the women and children in Ireland? 



300 

A. Yes, indeed I do. The Black-and-Tans — one of the things 
they did was to prevent the people going into the shops and buying 
food. Also, they are destroying creameries, and that means no milk 
distributed in the towns for the children. And of course there has 
always been a great deal of poverty in Ireland, as I told you; and 
they are making things a hundred times worse. 

Q. Is it your opinion that relief is needed in Ireland? 

A. It is absolutely essential or all the people will die. 

Q. To what extent was the policy of starvation being carried out 
when you left Ireland? 

A. Well, I left Ireland three months ago, you see, and it is since 
then that all that has come in force. I was ill, of course, and did 
not go back for my husband's funeral, but my sister-in-law did, and 
she can tell you. 

Q. You did not go to your husband's funeral? 

A. No, I was ill. My sister-in-law was there. I was only in 
Ireland for a few clays before I came on. The day I was there they 
shot into a football match and killed several people. 

Q. Were you there at the game? 

A. No. But then in Cork it was very much the same. They 
threw a bomb into a crowd and killed four people. One young 
man whom I knew, they took both his legs off, and he did not die 
until the next day. And of course ever so many people were in- 
jured. My sister-in-law can tell you ever so much more about that. 

But even before I left for England there were motor lorries and 
armored cars going through the streets so close that often one could 
scarcely pass between them. One day while I was on the tram they 
fired. Nobody in the tram was hurt, but we all saw them fire. And 
these lorries full of soldiers have terrorized the countryside. There 
was a Mrs. Quinn, a younger woman than I am. She was sitting on 
a lonely country road, as I often did when I was in the country 
with the baby. She was sitting by the road with one baby, and 
was going to have another soon. And the Black-and-Tans came 
along the road in a lorrv and shot her. 1 

Q. Had she committed any offense? 

A. Oh, no; none whatever. To prove that there was no one 
with her, it was some time before a priest came. It was a very 
out-of-the-way place. I felt that that case might have been mine. 

Q. Some one has related that the women of Ireland have steeled 
themselves to such an extent that weeping is unknown among them. 

A. Well, I never cry. 

Q. Is that the general feeling — that they must steel themselves 
for any emergency? 



1 The case of Mrs. Ellen Quinn of Gort, County Galway. 



301 

A. Yes, it is. Weeping is almost unknown. But there is just 
one thing: you know I did not go back to my own country except 
for two or three days, but I never cried all through, not even at the 
end. But since I have been here I feel that there is so much sym- 
pathy — I am not speaking of sympathy in letters and what people 
say to me, but it is what I feel from everyone. But that sympathy 
has almost made me cry here, and it did yesterday, and I felt that 
I might not be able to go through this hearing today. 

PURPOSE OF HUSBAND IN SACRIFICING HIS LIFE 

Q. Did your husband ever say what he felt his sacrifice would 
do for Ireland? A. He hoped that it would strengthen them still 
further in their struggle for independence. 

Q. That was one of his considerations? 

A. That was, of course, the main consideration of his life. He 
never thought of anything else. 

Q. Where is your baby now? A. In Cork. 

Q. Is she well? A. Very well. Would you like to see her 
photo? I've just got it from home. 

The Commission: Very, very much. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Your husband's hunger strike lasted 
seventy-four days? A. Yes. 

Q. You saw your husband the last time how many days before 
his death? A. I saw him on Saturday. I was not allowed in at all 
on Sunday. And he died on Monday. 

Q. On Monday? A. I was not called at all when he died. He 
died at six, and I did not hear about it until eight o'clock. 

Q. Did the doctor persist in feeding him when he was uncon- 
scious until the very end? A. Oh, yes, and I think that that really 
killed him. It was terrible to see him when he was more helpless 
than our baby was when she was born. 

Q. That feeding continued from Wednesday, then, until 
Monday? 

A. Oh, yes. And I know that he was in pain, because I could 
see it on his face. Another time when I saw him in great pain was 
on the tenth day. He said to me that it was not so that people never 
desired food after the tenth day. He suffered right to the end. 

Q. He wanted food right to the end? A. Yes, indeed. 



302 

HOPE FOR RECOGNITION OF REPUBLIC BY 
AMERICA 

I hope you will all help us win our Republic, because that was 
what my husband lived and died for. And we look on you in 
America very much as our own people, because you have been all 
so very kind to us. I looked upon this hearing as an ordeal, but 
it has not been at all. So I hope you will all do what you can 
for us. Also in the relief which I think has been started for Ire- 
land. But of course the chief thing is for Ireland to get her 
freedom. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do you think the relief work is the greatest 
thing that can be done for the Irish people? 

A. Yes, I do; but I think recognizing our Republic is the most 
immediate. The people who have suffered and are suffering most 
from hunger would choose that, too. It is the most immediate. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



SECOND HEARINGS 

Session Two, Continued 

Before the Commission, sitting in Odd Fellows' Hall, Washing- 
ton, D. C, December 9, 1920. 2:15 P. M. 

CONTINUATION OF TESTIMONY OF MISS 
MARY MACSWINEY 

Chairman Howe: The hearings will proceed now if you will 
quiet down and take your seats. 

Mr. Frank P. Walsh: Now, Miss MacSwiney, I believe you said 
that you had not finished your remarks on some phases last evening 
that you would like to begin now with. I think Miss MacSwiney has 
a number of details that her sister-in-law was not familiar with. 

The Witness: What do you want me to begin with? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I think perhaps it might be well to tell the 
story of the taking of your brother to London, and what took place 
at Holyhead, and all that. 

The Witness: Then I am to tell my part in my brother's arrest 
and imprisonment? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh : Yes, it would be well to tell that, and about his 
martyrdom. 

MRS. MACSWINEY'S HEALTH SHATTERED BY 
PERSECUTION OF HUSBAND 

The Witness: I think it might be well for me to emphasize some- 
thing in my sister-in-law's story, something that she did not em- 
phasize very much. She is very young, and she was never used to 
fighting things out as we were, and the constant strain of her hus- 
band's being on the run, as we call it in Ireland — that is, avoiding 
arrest, especially that terrible time when she had to take a little 
baby of six weeks old from the south to the north of Ireland to see 
her father in prison, because we knew he would be arrested upon 
his release; and the result was that for months before my brother's 
final arrest she really was in a very precarious state of health. And 
that added very much to his troubles. From Christmas last until 
Easter she was so ill that she was unable to have her little baby 
with her, and the baby was with us all the time. Her husband went 
constantly to see her when he could. He occasionally spent a night 
with her. She was very ill indeed, but she did the best she could to 

303 



304 

keep up. Al Easter time she was better. That was just before he 
was made Lord Mayor. You asked her to state what he said to her 
about that. I imagine he said very little, because he knew and we 
all knew that it would mean his death. And naturally ho did not 
want to distress her by talking about that. 

At Easter time, that is, very shortly after he was made Lord Mayor, 
she got very much better, and the baby was taken up to see her just 
on the Saturday before Easter. At that time my sister and I had to 
go to Dublin on business, and we would have been very puzzled to 
know what to do about baby if her mother had not got better. She 
went up. to her mother then, and was with her until she went to 
England. But all that time my brother was on the run — you know 
that on the run means evading arrest. 

VICISSITUDES OF MEN "ON THE RUN" 

Q. Senator Walsh: May I interrupt to ask you what per cent, 
of young men are on the run? 

A. I would say about ninety-nine per cent., — perhaps a hundred 
per cent, of the young men and some of the old men. 

Q. So that every young man of military age is, under present 
conditions, unable to live in his own home? 

A. Yes. Some of them do live there, but they take their chances. 
My oldest brother, who is an American citizen, is not sleeping at 
home with us simply because my sister will not have my brother in 
the house. Generally one looks upon one's brother as a protection. 
But when you have a house full of women, you can sometimes es- 
cape from the visits of the Black-and-Tans, who say that they are 
not shooting down women and children. They are doing it secretly, 
but they have not done it openly so far. But if they come to your 
house at night, they would shoot down any man they found there. 
My brothers have been staying with friends. My oldest brother said 
some time ago, ''What is the use of sending me to So-and-So's house, 
for they are all on the run too, and it seems to me that all the men 
in Ireland are sleeping in one another's houses." But it saves them, 
because when the Black-and-Tans come to a house and find a man 
and ask him his name, and he does not happen to be the man they 
are looking for, they often do not take that man, and go away quite 
satisfied. 

Another point is why we are not afraid during the day. My 
sister explained that. My brother always had a bodyguard during 
the day, and they did not arrest him, and would not ordinarily 
arrest any other man during the day because they would not want to 



305 

be recognized. Thai is one reason. Another is that deeds of dark- 
ness are always done in the dark. We never fear arrest during 
the day- It is always at night that they come. 

I can also tell you that a couple of nights when the searching 
seemed to slacken a little, my brother was in a very great need 
of rest, and he said he would sleep at home. I would like to em- 
phasize that "at home" always means our home, because, although 
they had two houses after they were married, he was never able 
to sleep at home. On a couple of occasions he was very tired and 
said, "I must absolutely have a night's rest, and I must risk- it." 
One night when he decided to risk it, at half-past eleven there was 
a knock at the door. You can imagine our state of mind when at 
that hour there was a knock at the door, and we thought it was 
the military. That particular night it happened not to be the mili- 
tary. It was one of his Volunteers who came to tell him that the 
enemy were on his track and he would have to go. And he had 
to get up and go at that time of night. Another night when he 
and his bodyguard ventured to stay in the house, a similar mes- 
sage came. We were sure it was the military, and they got ready 
to defend themselves. They were not going to be taken alive. We 
went to the door, and we discovered it was another Volunteer sol- 
dier with the message that they were after him. But the two, my 
brother and his bodyguard, the two of them were there; and if 
they had come and trapped them, they would have sold their 
lives dearly. 

The result of it was that he got no rest. He did not try to stay 
at home a third time. That was the kind of a life they were living. 
He always went about guarded. All his meals were taken at our 
house. We are quite near, not more than six minutes' walk from 
the city hall. He was able to come over the bridges of the north 
and south channels quietly and take his meals. His last meal there 
was for tea at half-past five on the afternoon of his arrest. And 
then he went to the city hall and was arrested. 

Senator Walsh : When I interrupted you, you were speaking 
about the health of your sister-in-law, and you were talking about 
your brother being on the run. 

The Witness: I don't think I need to say any more about my 
sister-in-law's health, except just that. She really did have a very 
hard time of it, and she broke down also just after the inquest. 
She broke down and was obliged to stay in London, as I said. 
There is a limit to human endurance, and some of us have had to 
go quite close to it. She could not do anything more for him, and 
I think she was too ill to go back to Cork and face things there. 



306 

SYMPATHY HARDER TO BEAR THAN CRUELTY 

There is another thing. It is harder to face sympathy some- 
times than to face brutality. One of the senators asked if it is 
true that the women of Ireland have steeled themselves against 
tears. While we were in England it was a point of honor to us 
that the enemy should never see us cry. It does not mean that the 
women of Ireland do not have to cry sometimes in secret. And 
what my sister-in-law told you is true. We have been nearer to 
tears since we came to America than any time since we have 
been in England. That is why I say that sympathy is often harder 
to bear than cruelty. 

Our tormentors in England gave us the very great privilege of 
being with him from early morning to night, and my youngest 
brother stayed with him all night. That was a very great privi- 
lege, but we knew that it was not given to us for kindness. It 
was given to us because they thought that no body of women 
could go through that without breaking down, and if we would 
break down, it might cause my brother to break down. That was 
the reason for allowing us to see my brother. And it was very, 
very trying to see him dying by inches. 

In telling you my brother's story, I would like to confine myself 
to his prison experiences from the point of view of Ireland and 
not the personal point of view. I want to deal with the English 
propaganda to discredit him and to discredit Ireland's cause. And 
I will ask you to allow me to leave the personal side of it out of 
the question. 

LORD MAYOR ARRESTED WITHOUT CHARGE; 
EVIDENCE MANUFACTURED LATER 

When my brother was arrested, he was arrested on no particular 
charge. 

Q. Senator Walsh: This was his last arrest? 

A. This was his last arrest. The charge was manufactured 
after the arrest. That was quite usual. They always manufacture 
the evidence. But I will come back to that later on. Perhaps 
there is one particular thing I had better tell you now. They have 
very often manufactured evidence in this way: they have sent 
anonymous letters to the houses of people which they were going 
to raid, addressed to the person they wanted to implicate. These 
anonymous letters were very often incitements to shoot policemen, 
and various things like that. If these letters were found, then they 






307 

were immediately brought up as evidence. Now, this has hap- 
pened in several instances. On one particular morning the Countess 
de Markievicz got by the first post a letter with the copy of a 
police document which was of very great importance. She was 
clever enough, — we all have to keep our wits about us, — to put 
it straight in the fire. A half hour later the house was raided, and 
every letter — every bit of paper was examined. They were look- 
ing for that document which they themselves had sent. 

On Thursday my brother was arrested, on Thursday night at 
seven o'clock. On that afternoon, by the afternoon post, which 
comes between half-past four and five, a letter came addressed 
to The Lord Mayor of Cork, care of Miss Mary MacSwiney, Bel- 
grave Place, Cork. There was also an indication that I might open 
it. yes, it was addressed to the Lord Mayor or to Miss Mary 
MacSwiney, Belgrave Place, Cork. That came about a half hour 
before my brother came home to tea. I opened it. It was in a 
disguised handwriting, and purported to be from a Volunteer in 
Tipperary saying that the Volunteers in Tipperary were very lax 
in the people they allowed to go about, giving details about a 
certain policeman named Quinn, whom this letter said was causing 
a great deal of trouble, and urging that without further delay 
this man should be shot. I read the letter twice over. It was an 
anonymous letter. I tore it up and burnt it. When my brother 
came in, I told him what had happened. These things are so 
much matters of course that there was not much more comment 
made about it. 

They arrested him at seven o'clock. At midnight that night 
two military officers and a large body of men came to our house 
to raid it. They were sent for that letter. They wanted it for 
evidence against my brother. That is the sort of thing that we 
have to put up with. That is the sort of wicked propaganda — they 
manufacture that propaganda. If that letter had been found in 
my house — because they knew his letters always went there — if 
that letter had been found he would have been charged, not with 
the charges that were preferred against him, but on being the 
leader of a conspiracy to murder policemen. And they searched 
my house very thoroughly indeed that night to get evidence of 
his complicity in the murder of policemen. They did their best 
to manufacture it beforehand. And I would like to emphasize 
to you how we have to keep our wits sharpened to counter such 
propaganda. All through my brother's hunger strike, we have had 
to keep, as it were, two sides of us alive: we have had the per- 
sonal sorrow, on which I am not going to touch, — I don't want to 



308 

mention that; we have also had to fight day and night the Eng- 
lish propaganda that was carried on to discredit him with the world. 
And I want, il you will have patience with me, to stress that in 
detail. 

BEGINNING OF HUNGER STRIKE 
He was arrested on the twelfth of August, and kept in Cork 
jail. My sister-in-law told you that I went down to see her on 
Saturday. I saw him in Cork jail that morning, and that was 
the first intimation I had that he was hunger striking. He looked 
very bad then, although it was only his third day. On Saturday I 
went down to see her and to look after the baby. She decided she 
would not go until Monday morning. On Sunday morning I was 
awakened by a great friend of ours, a gentleman who lives across 
the water, who came down to tell us that he had information 
that my brother was to be court-martialed at eleven o'clock the 
next morning. That information was not given to us officially, 
but we found it out. She decided to go up at once, and I stayed 
below. 

SPEECH OF LORD MAYOR AT TRIAL 

Therefore I was not present at the trial, but I know that the 
speech he made at the trial stressed some points that were not 
brought out in the speech she read to you. He used practically 
the same terms that he used in his speech upon his inauguration 
as Lord Mayor. But he said that he was really the person who 
should be trying them, and he told those military officers, with 
respect to the charge that they emphasized particularly, the charge 
that he had a police code, that he was the only person in that 
city who should have a police code, and anybody else in that city 
who had a police code without his permission was guilty of an il- 
legal act, and it was his business to try them. They said they 
found the code in his desk. That w T as a lie. That was an absolute 
lie. The code at the time of his arrest was in the possession of 
somebody else. That person did not have time to destroy it, and he 
stuck it in a place that he thought might escape the attention of 
the military. It did not escape their attention. They captured it. 
They captured it outside the city hall in the yard. They did not 
capture it in the city hall at all. But they took it at once and 
put it in the Lord Mayor's desk, and said they found it there. 
That was a lie. However, that made no difference. The attitude 
my brother took was, as he said, "I accept absolute responsibility 
for that code, and I am the only one in the city who is entitled 
to have it." 



309 

The other two charges, that he had a uniform of the Irish Re- 
publican Army and that he was the presiding officer of a body 
that had sworn allegiance to Dail Eireann, were due, of course, to 
the English attitude toward their authority in Ireland. And their 
right to assume that authority he denied absolutely. 

TOLERANT ATTITUDE OF LORD MAYOR TOWARD 
POLITICAL OPPONENTS 

I do not think there is anything more I want to say about that, 
but I want to read one sentence of his speech upon his inaugura- 
tion as Lord Mayor. He says, in speaking of his comrade who had 
just been murdered l (he speaks of a meeting that was held im- 
mediately after the election ) , "I would recall some of my words at 
our first meeting after his election as Lord Mayor. I realize that 
most of us in the minority here were loyal citizens of the Irish 
Republic." (By the minority he means those who are Unionists 
and Nationalists in the Corporation.) "I realize," he said, "that 
most of us in the minority here were loyal citizens of the 
Irish Republic, if the English occupation did not threaten your 
lives. But you lacked the spirit and the hope to join with us 
in the fight to complete the work already so well begun." That 
is our attitude toward the minority. We know they would be 
with- us if some of them were not so much afraid of their lives. 
We also know that many Unionists are now coming over to us 
in large numbers. There is an old saying that nothing succeeds 
like success. And we have been so successful that those who 
used to be Unionists are now coming over to support the Republic. 

And another sentence he said: "The shining hope of our time is 
that the great majority of our people is now strong in that faith." 
(The faith that will endure to the end is what he means.) "To 
you, gentlemen of the minority, I would address a word. You 
seem to be hypnotized by that evil — the usurpation which calls 
itself self-government. I ask you again to take courage and hope. 
It seems to me, and I do not say it to hurt you, that you have a 
very lively faith in the power of the devil, and very little faith 
in the power of God." 

I quote these few sentences to show you what our spirit is 
toward the dwindling minority who uphold British rule in Ireland. 
They do not uphold it because they love it. They uphold it be- 
cause they fear it. But they will learn what we have long known, 



x His friend and predecessor, Lord Mayor Thomas MacCurtain. See 
index. 



310 

that the only thing one should be afraid of in Ireland today is to 
be afraid of being afraid. 

LAST VISIT WITH BROTHER BEFORE HIS 
DEPORTATION 

When my sister-in-law came up to Cork on Monday, after my 
brother's arrest, I remained in Youghal. I did not know then 
she was coming down, but I got a telegram to catch the four 
o'clock train up to Cork. The gentleman who brought the tele- 
gram also offered to stay there and look after baby until my sister- 
in-law got back. She met me at the station and told me that the 
trial was over, and probably he would be deported that night, and 
that I had better go up at once, and that a special permission 
had been given for me to see him. I went up to Cork, arriving 
there about six o'clock. My sister had by that time received the 
letter from General Strickland, commander of the British forces, 
that I and my younger brother, who had not seen him during the 
day, might see my brother. We went up to the barracks. He was 
sitting in one of the large rooms, — evidently an officer's bedroom, 
and he was sitting there wrapped up in a big coat and evidently 
feeling very badly. I asked when he was to be sent away. The 
military officers said they did not know. Of course, they knew, 
but they had orders not to tell us. I said, "This thing is rather 
important to us. My brother has only the clothes he has on. If 
you are going to send him out of the country, we want to send 
him a suitcase with clothes." They said they did not know; they 
could not tell us; but they thought it would be wiser to send him 
the suitcase. My sister went down there then and had a suitcase of 
clothes and some things sent him. We tried hard to find where he 
was to be sent, but we could not find out. But the officers there 
tried to be as nice to us as they could, and we stayed there until 
half-past eight o'clock. That meant we could not see him again. 
So we stayed there until half-past eight and then we went away. 

The next thing was, as I told you, that at midnight the military 
searched our house, and I think they got very tired of it before 
long, because our house happens to be a school, and all the docu- 
ments of the school for the past four years were there, and I told 
them they had better take up their lodgings there for a fortnight 
if they expected to search all these things. They searched all the 
correspondence, however, but they did not find the letter that I 
had received that evening and had burned. That letter, of course, 
was sent by the British secret service department. 



311 

NECESSITY OF SCRUPULOUS ACCURACY IN 
STATEMENTS 

On Friday we learned that he was at the miltary barracks, but 
we did not know what they were going to do with him. On Sat- 
urday he was sent to the Cork jail. On Tuesday he was sent over 
to England. I am going to tell you he did not go in a submarine, 
but in a British destroyer. My sister-in-law said a submarine. I 
am going to correct it, because if I did not mention that it was 
a destroyer and not a submarine, you would have all the pro- 
British papers in Britain and America crying out — they would take 
that one slip and would say that it was all a lie — that every word 
of the statement we have given here is a lie. That is why I want 
to be absolutely exact. That is why I want to make this small 
correction, because from one small slip that is a small inaccuracy, 
they would seek to discredit everything that we have said here, and 
would try to destroy what might be very important for Ireland. 
It was not a submarine. It was a British destroyer. But, as Arch- 
bishop Mannix has told us, they are not very comfortable things to 
travel on. They are not ocean liners meant for the comfort and 
convenience of their passengers. They are designed for the maxi- 
mum of use. 

Chairman Howe: Miss MacSwiney, if you will, just stop there. 
We are required to give up this hall at one o'clock, unfortunately. 
The meeting will be adjourned, and the hearings will be con- 
tinued at two-fifteen this afternoon at the Hotel LaFayette. 

(Adjournment 12:57 P. M.) 

******** 

Hotel LaFayette, 2:28 P. M. 

Chairman Howe: The hearings will begin now. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Will you please continue, Miss MacSwiney? 
I think you were telling us about taking your brother over to 
England in a destroyer. 

THE VIGIL IN BRIXTON PRISON 

The Witness: That was on the night of Monday or Tuesday morn- 
ing. I think he left Cork about four o'clock Tuesday morning. 
At least he was taken away during the curfew hours. And then 
we wired the authorities to know where he was, and we did not 
get any information. Meanwhile we wired friends in England 
to learn where he was. Mr. Arthur O'Brien put his machinery to 
work to know where he was. And he wired us that he was at 



312 

Brixton. That was Thursday morning. The authorities also found 
out that he was over at Brixton. But I was half-way over when 
they wired. I left Cork immediately and arrived in London Fri- 
day morning, the twentieth of August, and I saw my brother that 
day. My sister-in-law arrived Saturday, and it was arranged that 
as soon as the situation got so dangerous that my brother was on 
the point of death, that I should send word to my sister and 
younger brother to come at once. We sent telegrams regularly 
twice a day home, and also telegrams were sent to the City Hall 
to tell how he was. When I saw my brother then on Friday, the 
twentieth, I did not think he could live a week. Dr. Higson, the 
doctor of the prison who was then in charge, told me he would 
give me word when my brother was at the point of death. He 
told me he would send me word in time to advise my sister. On 
the following Tuesday he had a very bad time, and he was so 
seriously ill that I did not wait any longer, but wired my brother 
and sister to come, too, and not wait any longer. When they did 
come he collapsed quite. It was a very bad time. As you were 
told in the beginning, about the tenth day is a very bad time. 

Then he seemed to remain stationary. Then when it was about 
half over he got very great pains, a kind of neuritis. And then 
at the end time, there was nothing but very great weakness. You 
can understand what his sufferings were, and therefore I do not 
want to linger on that point. 

ENGLISH PROPAGANDISTS MISCALCULATE THE 
EFFECTS OF LORD MAYOR'S IMPRISONMENT 

I want to speak of the English anti-Irish propaganda on the 
whole situation. We were allowed, as I said this morning, un- 
limited access to my brother, even to the extent of allowing my 
youngest brother to remain in the prison all night long. That 
seemed very kind, but I believe it was done not so much to be kind 
to us as to break my brother down. England, from the point 
of view of getting a victim, got a very bad one in the case of my 
brother. The doctors were obliged to report that forcible feeding 
would not do in his case. They sometimes try forcible feeding so 
the prisoner will not starve himself to death. Forcible feeding in 
my brother's case would only have accelerated his death. On ac- 
count of an attack of pleurisy in his infancy he had a weak spot 
in his lungs, and therefore forcible feeding would only have 
hastened his death. 

The second mistake England made was the bringing of him 



313 

from Cork to London. They dare not forcibly feed a man in Cork 
now, but they thought they could do it in London. If they had 
kept him in Cork I am quite sure they would have kept the knowl- 
edge of what was going on from the world; and probably you 
would never have heard of it, and we would not have received your 
invitation to come and testify about the wrongs of Ireland. By 
taking him to London, he was in the spot where newspaper re- 
porters from all quarters of the world are. And the result was 
that the reasons of that hunger strike were heralded all over the 
world, and did more good for Ireland than anything that has 
happened for a hundred and fifty years. It did far more good 
for Ireland than Easter Week did, for this reason: many people 
said it was not an opportune time for us to strike at England. 
We were stabbing England in the back, we were told. France 
was very angry with us, and France has always been a friend of 
ours. And France to this day has not forgiven us. We are very 
sorry, for France has always been a friend of ours, but we cannot 
help it. France would take care of herself in the same way. That 
is one reason why Easter week did not help us so much with the 
outside world. It was not so good a propaganda for us as my 
brother's death was. 

And then again, it would not have done so much good for Ire- 
land if they had not taken him to London and his family had 
not moved over there and settled there with him. England was 
very much surprised at the great wave of sympathy beginning to 
go throughout the whole world, and then she began to try to 
counter that propaganda in every way she could. The papers be- 
gan to say that the doctors were feeding him; that they were giv- 
ing him proteids in his medicine. I called the doctors' attention 
to it, and they pooh-poohed it and said, "Who cares what the news- 
papers say? Who pays any attention to it?" Those are the words 
of the English doctors, gentlemen of the press, and not mine. 

ATTITUDE OF PRISON DOCTORS TOWARD LORD 

MAYOR 

When we arrived there the only doctor in charge was Dr. Hig- 
son, the second doctor. A little later Dr. Griffiths, the senior doc- 
tor, came on. A little later on the junior doctor came on, and our 
little contact with him showed him the worst of the three. Dr. 
Griffiths was a very capable man, and the willing tool — I say it 
deliberately — the willing tool of the Home Office in everything they 
did. Dr. Higson was a very humane man, whose attitude showed 



314 

that he sympathized with my brother, but he was helpless. One 
day in talking with him and he was pointing out his helplessness, 
I told him one position he might take, although I knew he would 
not. He could have come out and condemned his government and 
resigned his position for its inhumanity. Of course he would 
not do it. That was asking an Englishman to be heroic. Of Dr. 
Higson I have nothing to say but good. He made our time at 
Brixton as comfortable as he could, and I do not blame him for 
anything that happened. His only fault was that his courage was 
not equal to his heart. 

The third doctor I have nothing to say about. I had very little 
conversation with him. The only real question I think I ever 
put to him was on the day when my sister and I were locked 
out of the prison, and the Home Office said it was by the doctor's 
orders. I spoke to each doctor individually. I said, "Doctor, the 
Home Office says that the doctors are responsible for our being 
denied permission to see my brother," and I asked him, "Are you 
the responsible one?" And he answered, "Am I? Perhaps." That 
was all, but it was given with a sneer and a toss of the head that 
showed him to be the most contemptible creature on the face of 
the earth. 

SECRET ANALYSIS OF MEDICINE FOILS PROPA- 
GANDA THAT BROTHER RECEIVED LIQUID 

FOOD 

I want to deal now with propaganda. I asked the doctors to 
make a statement that they were not putting food in my brother's 
medicine, and they refused. That was getting such world-wide 
publicity — the newspaper reporters from all over the world were 
coming to us to know if that was possible, and the belief was 
getting so general that it was being done that we had to counter- 
act it somehow. 

I am going to give you now a piece of information that is given 
for the first time to anybody. We stole some of the medicine. We 
abstracted a dose of the medicine from under the very eyes of the 
jailer, and we had it analyzed. The analysis proved that there 
was absolutely nothing in the medicine but just what the doctors 
had told us it was, — a purgative medicine to keep the body func- 
tioning in an orderly way and to act simply as any ordinary 
medicine. There was absolutely no trace of food. The analysis 
was given. There was only one thing in the analysis that seemed 
to puzzle the analyst. That was that he detected the traces of 



315 

alcohol, as if there had been perfume in the bottle. That was 
exactly what it was. It was. a small eau-de-cologne bottle in which 
we took the sample of medicine from the prison. This is the first 
time that this is given to anybody, even to our own intimate friends. 
Only my brother knew of it, and my sister and myself. For a 
long time even my sister-in-law did not know about it, because 
we wanted to keep it very secret. Now, you will ask, if it was so 
secret as all that, what use was it to us? As it was, we could not 
let it be known that we had analyzed the medicine, or we would 
have been all turned out of the prison. So having satisfied our- 
selves that they were not playing any tricks, we set about satis- 
fying the public. We got the most eminent doctor that we could. 
We asked permission from the Home Office to have a physician of 
our own go in and see my brother. And we got that specialist to 
go in and see him. We did not tell him anything about that 
analysis, needless to say. We told him to examine the medicine, 
that we wanted to be satisfied that the doctors were not putting 
proteids in the medicine they were giving my brother. We asked 
that doctor to go there for another reason. There was a rumor 
that my brother, being on the point of death, was to be moved to 
a nursing home; that the authorities were afraid to have him die 
in the prison, and wanted him to be moved outside. We wanted 
independent medical testimony that he was not able to be moved. 
They gave us that permission. I think their idea was that they 
wanted to represent to the outside world that they wished to be 
as nice as they possibly could to us and they did not want to refuse 
us anything that they could possibly grant. Our purpose in hav- 
ing the doctor was to make a public statement that my brother 
was not getting any food in his medicine. We knew from the 
analysis, but we wanted a specialist to make the statement. The 
doctor making the examination was very nervous indeed when he 
went in, but on coming out the first thing that he said to all of us 
was, "The Lord Mayor does not want to die. He has no intention 
of committing suicide." Of course we knew he did not want to 
die. What he wanted was freedom. The doctor came away from 
his interview with my brother evidently with a very high opinion 
of his character and principles. And I told him straight out that 
we wanted the assurance that the doctors were not feeding him 
secretly, and he gave us that assurance and said we might trust the 
doctors because they were all honorable men. And, of course, we 
had attained our object as far as the newspapers were concerned; 
and from that day on there was not a hint in any of the English 
papers that the doctors were feeding him secretly. 



;ig 



INSINUATION THAT RELATIVES SECRETLY 

FED HIM 

That disposed of that, but they next said that his relatives were 
feeding him secretly. Of course, they could not say openly that 
we were doing so. They said — of course, even the doctors said, 
"The food is always there, and he can eat at any time." And the 
curious thing was that they changed the food to meet his condi- 
tion. At first there was chicken and eggs and the like. And as 
he got weaker afterwards they brought him chicken broth, meat 
essence, milk with brandy, and the things he would naturally get 
if he would take food. And we were invited to give them to him. 
Then began the insinuations in the papers that we were giving him 
food secretly. We never gave him food, but we were giving him 
water whenever he asked for it. Sometimes he would say, "Give 
me some water," and we would go and get him some water, even 
when the nurse was in the room. But from the day that this 
propaganda began that we were feeding him secretly, we would 
not give him the water; we would let the nurse get him the water. 
We had to watch like lynxes from beginning to end. Every step 
held a trap for us. And all that was to counteract the deed 
that was creating so much sympathy for Ireland all over the world. 

INSIDIOUS APPEALS TO GET BROTHER TO TAKE 

FOOD 

And then there were the constant appeals not to let such a 
good man die, that his life would be so much better for Ireland 
than his death. Some of these appeals pretended to be from 
friends of Ireland who told us what a great mistake we were 
making in letting him starve to death; others were from people who 
abused us shamefully for letting him die. Such was their propa- 
ganda, — which I know you will not ask me to elaborate. My 
brother was told that it was hard for his wife and sisters to see 
him suffer, and for their sake would he not take a little food. And 
we were told that it was terrible to have such a noble man die, 
and would not we coax him to have a little food. One day, in 
answer to the pleas like that that the doctors made to him, he said, 
"Doctors, my wife and sisters are with me in this. They would not 
ask me to stop. They would think me a coward if I did." That 
was verily the one great consolation that he had, — that we were 
whole-heartedly with him in his fight. But the doctor came in the 
afternoon and suggested to us in another way : that my brother was 



, 317 

anxious to discontinue, only he was afraid to do it, thinking that 
we would think him a coward and give him a hard time after- 
wards. I am telling that only to show you the insidious way that 
they went about trying to discredit us, and to give you another 
instance why I corrected that small slip this morning where a sub- 
marine was mentioned instead of a torpedo destroyer. Of course, 
my brother did not say that. He told us afterwards what he had 
said. And he told us over and over again how much we strength- 
ened and supported him because we were with him. And he often 
said to us individually that he knew that our part in the suffering 
was ever so much harder than his, because it is always harder to 
see one you love suffer than to suffer yourself. None of you have 
ever had to endure that sort of thing, — that incessant torture of 
appeal day after day. I suppose the doctors thought they were 
doing their duty. Most of these appeals were made to me and my 
sister, — chieflly to me. They had the grace to leave his wife alone. 
I think her youth and her grace appealed to them. Perhaps they 
thought we were not feeling it so much. But we got the brunt of 
it to bear, and it was not easy. 

ANONYMOUS LETTERS OF ABUSE 

Then there came with all that shoals and shoals of anonymous 
letters. I suppose we have had thousands of anonymous letters 
from all parts of the country abusing us. A great many of them 
came from America, but then they did not come from Americans, 
but from the English propagandists in America. But we, of 
course, cast all these aside. We did not read them. One day an 
anonymous correspondent sent us a phial of poison to give to him 
and "finish him off quickly, and not make so much fuss about 
it, if we wanted him dead." I'm telling you that particular inci- 
dent for this reason: religious friends had been sending him 
religious emblems from all parts of the world, and we had been 
getting roses and flowers and things like that in little parcels. 
And up to that time we had been taking them upstairs and open- 
ing them at his bedside. The day this came we had taken this 
little parcel up and opened it and glanced at it before we showed 
it to him, and my sister, who had it in her hand, tried to hide it 
away. But he noticed it and wanted to know what it was. It was 
impossible to hide it, so we showed it to him. And he laughed 
and said, "You surely do not think I would mind a thing like 
that." All that sort of thing went on. We did not read anony- 
mous letters, yet still they had their share in the things we had 
to endure while we were over there. 



318 » 

ENGLISH HOPED BROTHER'S DEATH WOULD 
PROVOKE UPRISING OF VOLUNTEERS 

Another thing I would like you to know about the English at- 
titude toward us is that we found out that they were counting very 
strongly on the effect my brother's death might have on the Irish 
Volunteers. They had tried in every way to provoke the Volun- 
teers until they would come out in the open so that they might 
crush them, but they had not succeeded in doing it. They had 
come to the conclusion that they could not defeat the Volun- 
teer organization in that way, but they still thought that if they 
could get hold of the leaders and get them killed in large num- 
bers, they would be able to conquer the rest of the country. They 
counted, I think, that my brother's death would create such an 
uproar in Cork that the Republican soldiers there would lose their 
heads, and their leaders would, too. You see, my brother was a 
very cool and very calm man. He was not one of the hot-headed, 
rash young people that the English Government talks about such 
a lot. And they thought that because he was so much loved and 
so calm, that his death would enrage the Volunteers and they would 
come out in the open, and the Volunteers could then he shot down 
lawfully, as it were. The rumors were brought to me from Ireland 
that the Volunteers were in a very great state of tension. And 
some people whose advice could not be set aside, some people who 
were not scaremongers, were very much concerned lest his death 
would cause just such an uprising in Cork as would give the Eng- 
lish their chance. And so, when the opportunity came, I said to 
my brother, "Do you think the Volunteers will be out of hand? 
Would you not like to send them a message?" His answer to me 
was, "Certainly not. The Volunteers are soldiers who are ef- 
fectively officered, and it would be an insult to both officers and 
men if I sent them such a message. They are a disciplined body, 
and they know their duty and they will do it." When the end was 
very close and the tension was very high, I sent a message to Cork 
myself, and this message was that I had heard these reports and 
had mentioned them to my brother and asked him if he would 
like to send a message; and I gave them his message just as I 
got it. I think it was the most effective message that could have 
been sent. 



319 

LLOYD GEORGE AND HOME OFFICE REFUSE TO 
SAVE BROTHER'S LIFE 

While we were all perfectly satisfied that my brother should 
carry his sacrifice to the end, and while we did not begrudge 
him to Ireland, we felt it our duty to do every single thing we 
could to save him, everything we could consistently do with his 
principles and with ours. We would not be guilty of any com- 
promise any more than he would. But short of a compromise, we 
felt bound to try to save his life and make the English release 
him. I went the day after my arrival in London to the Home 
Office. That was on Friday — the first day I arrived in London. I 
went to the Home Office. I saw some of the under secretaries. They 
told me that the Government's decision was unalterable; that my 
brother's death would be on his own head; and that they would 
not release him on account of the hunger strike. I asked to see 
Mr. Shortt, and I was told that Mr. Shortt was busy. I wrote to 
Mr. Shortt and told him that this was a very serious matter, and 
asked for an interview. He wrote back that no good purpose was 
to be served by an interview, since the government's decision was 
unalterable. Lloyd George was then in Lucerne or Geneva, Lucerne 
I think, and I asked him who was responsible in this matter. He 
sent back a message, which probably appeared in the American 
papers at the time, which was a deliberate insult to a woman to 
whom he was already causing as much suffering as was at all 
necessary. He said that he had received my appeal on behalf 
of my brother's life. (I made none.) He said that he regretted 
that my brother was causing such suffering to his family by his 
deliberate suicide. I call that a scoundrel's answer, a scoundrel's 
insult. I wired back and told him that his answer was an insult; 
that I made no appeal to him, but I wanted to know on whom to 
place the responsibility for my brother's death. He accepted that 
responsibility, and he is responsible before God and the world 
for that murder. For no law, English or any other law, justifies 
him in doing what he did. He was as responsible for my brother's 
death as he was when he was declared guilty by a coroner's jury 
of the City of Cork for the death of my brother's predecessor, Lord 
Mayor MacCurtain. The Irish people know where to put the re- 
sponsibility of my brother's death, and it is no use for Lloyd 
George to try to put it on the shoulders of any individual Black- 
and-Tan. 



320 

BRITISH LABOR FAILS TO SUPPORT SYMPATHY 
WITH EFFECTIVE ACTION 

I found, then, thai the Home Office was quite determined to let 
him die, and I was quite convinced of that after my interview 
there. The English press was quite sympathetic. Even the anti- 
Irish press said it was a mistake to let my brother die. And the 
labor people were passing resolutions about the matter. I told my 
brother one day that the labor people were very sympathetic, and 
his answer was, "If English labor really wanted to get me out, they 
could do it in twenty-four hours if they liked." 

Then I went to interview the Council of Action. The Council 
of Action — 1 do not know whether you know of it or not — was a 
council of the labor people formed by the working classes to 
prevent Poland being supplied with arms to fight the Russians. 
They were very interested in the crisis between Russia and Poland, 
but the injustice that was being done at their own door did not 
affect them. I went to see them so that if they did not take ac- 
tion, they could not plead ignorance as an excuse. So I told them 
what was going on. They were very sympathetic, very, and there 
were some very honest men among them. But no man was suf- 
ficiently courageous to take action. They were very courageous 
about Russia, but the particular thing they were doing about 
Russia was not against the wishes of their own Government. 

DUPLICITY OF MR. THOMAS PREVENTS APPEAL 
TO PORTSMOUTH LABOR CONGRESS 

There was a big labor congress held this summer at Ports- 
mouth. Some of 6ur friends had come from different parts of 
England, and they said that the feeling was intense about letting 
my brother die. And they said that if the Labor Council called 
a strike, that strike would be effective. The whole Merthyr di- 
vision and the whole Newcastle division would go on strike and 
get my brother released. And they said that as the labor congress 
was meeting in Portsmouth, that I should go down there and try 
to get them to act. The labor congress represented six and one- 
half million people; and if the labor congress could be got to 
act, that even the government would be forced to release my 
brother. 

I went down to Portsmouth and sent in my card to the chairman, 
Mr. Thomas, who is general secretary of the Railroad Union, I 
believe. Mr. Thomas is rather like Mr. Lloyd George, I am told, 



321 

in character and action, and he has acted and talked very much 
like Mr. George. He sent out word that the congress already had 
passed a resolution about my brother's case, and nothing more 
could he done. 1 sent hack word that 1 was sorry, hut I wanted 
my request to he put to the members of the congress, and I 
would take their answer. He sent out word that he could not do it. 
Meanwhile I got word that the standing orders committee of the 
Council of Action was meeting upstairs, and that the standing 
orders could only be interfered with if the standing orders com- 
mittee approved of it. So I went upstairs for an interview with 
the standing orders committee. They were all intensely sympa- 
thetic. Every man and woman I talked with was intensely sym- 
pathetic. But it was not their business. They were not respon- 
sible. That was their attitude. I asked the standing orders com- 
mittee to be allowed to speak to the congress for five minutes. 
They said it could not be done. I said that I understood that in 
any congress in a matter of sufficient importance the standing 
orders could be set aside for a particular case. I asked them if 
that was not so, and they said yes, but in this case it could not be 
done. I asked them if they would not let me make an appeal to 
the representatives of six and a half million people, and find 
out if they would let my brother die without doing anything to 
stop it. They were very reluctant to do it. They were equally 
reluctant to say no. And so they sent one of the lady members 
to talk to me and convince me that it would be unwise. I said, 
"Unwise for whom?" And she said unwise for me. And I said, 
"I am at the very end, and no action they could take would be un- 
wise for me." She said it would be a mistake. I wanted to get 
the mistake proved, and she could not prove it. What she really 
meant was that it would be a mistake for English labor people to 
press this matter. But I wanted deeds, not words. And then 
finally she said it could only be done by the parliamentary com- 
mittee. And I said, "Does the parliamentary committee meet to- 
day?" And she said yes, at five o'clock. And I said, "I can 
get a train back to London later than that." And I saw a great 
expression of relief on her face. And I asked her if the congress 
would meet after that time, and she said no. And I said, "I can- 
not wait that long." And I said, "Are the parliamentary commit- 
tee in the house now?" And she said yes. And I said, "I would 
like to see them now." She did not have the courage to say no. 
And so they sent down a deputation of the standing orders com- 
mittee to confer with the members of the parliamentary committee 
on the platform, including Mr. Thomas. They did not tell me 



322 

beforehand that they were going to do that. If they had I would 
have known perfectly well the result. But they sent down the 
deputation before I was informed of it. And they came back 
after a time and said that they had gone down and they had pre- 
sented my request to the parliamentary committee that was on the 
platform, and the parliamentary committee had said that it was 
impossible to grant my request. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is it necessary to go into all these details? 

A. Not entirely, but perhaps I am tiring you? 

Senator Walsh: I think it is very important to know the steps 
you took to get your brother released, but the details of the move- 
ment I am afraid will tire you out to give in detail. 

The Witness: The only reason I was giving those details was 
this: because they were a very good example of the kind of hypo- 
critical sympathy that we met with, and the fact that, doing the 
meanest things they could do, that our enemies tried to do them 
as if they wanted to do everything they possibly could to please 
us. And I only ask your permission to say this : I found out by 
dint of questioning that my request was conveyed to the congress 
in this manner: Mr. Thomas got up and said that Miss Mac- 
Swiney, the Lord Mayor's sister, had asked to speak to them, and 
that he need not tell the congress what a harrowing time that lady 
had been through for the past month, and that although the lady 
would be quite willing to talk to them, that he was quite sure 
that they would not ask that poor harrowed lady to speak to them 
that day. And so out of sheer sympathy they were fooled into 
denying my request. And so I turned around and said, "I simply 
want a straight answer to a straight question. If I came here to 
speak, was it not because I wanted to come?" I only give you 
that so that you will understand. They will not openly deny 
what is fair and just, but they will try to escape giving a definite 
no. I gave that as an example of the evil propaganda that we 
had to fight for the whole two and a half months while we were 
there. 

DOCTORS THREATEN FORCIBLE FEEDING 

And now I come to our own particular treatment. On the Mon- 
day before my brother's death, exactly a week before he died, there 
was a consultation of doctors, and when they came out they called 
me aside and they said that my brother had developed symptoms 
of scurvy, and that it was necessary for him to take lime juice, but 
he had refused, and when they had asked him he said that he only 
wanted to be left alone and to die in peace. And the doctor said 



323 

(this was the special doctor who came to see him once a week), 
"I assure you, Miss MacSwiney, that your brother will not die in 
peace if he gets scurvy. He will die with the most terrible tortures. 
And you had better urge him to take lime juice now." And I told 
him that I was afraid I could not. And then he continued and tried 
to tell me what a terrible death dying by scurvy was. And I turned 
to him and said, "It would be a terrible thing to die with tortures. 
The matter is in God's hands, and we can only ask that He does not 
let him suffer too much." And he turned to me and said, "God 
has nothing to do with it. The case is in our hands — your hands 
and my hands. And we shall see that he will have to take lime 
juice." I said that I would not urge my brother to take lime juice, 
and that was all there was about it. 

There were a couple of friends from Cork who came to see him, 
and he teased them a little because he was always very fond of tea, 
and the first thing he always said was to ask people to have a cup 
of tea with him. And he said to them in Irish, "I am sorry I cannot 
offer you a cup of tea." And they said, "Well, never mind, we will 
have a cup of tea together yet." 

The next morning the doctor of the prison, Dr. Griffiths, said he 
was going to force him to take lime juice. My brother sent for the 
governor and said he objected to being forced to take anything in 
his weak state. All that day, Tuesday, my brother was very excited, 
because he did not have the energy to resist — not the energy of 
mind, but the energy of body. He was so weak he could not resist 
physically in case they tried to feed him forcibly. I think that he 
felt very sad that after seventy-four days, they could get the better 
of him and make him take something. That excited him, and on 
Wednesday morning he was very excited. Early in the morning, 
when the chaplain visited him, he was very excited. 

LAPSING CONSCIOUSNESS AND DELIRIUM 

But for two or three days his power of concentration was going 
from him. If he wanted to say something, he would say, "You 
will have to wait a minute until I get my thoughts clear." On that 
morning when my sister visited him, he said that that hammering 
was the doctor coming with a new treatment. I will not go over 
the details of the next few days. I want to come to Friday morn- 
ing. During the period of delirium he recognized me three times. 
He recognized my other sister once. After Thursday morning he 
did not recognize either his wife or my brothers. I want you to 
think of that when his people were not allowed in the prison. On 



324 

that Wednesday, the day of his first delirium, he turned to her and 
said, "Muriel, you have always stuck by me." And a little after- 
wards he turned to me and said, "Min (that was my pet name at 
home), you are always loyal to Ireland. Stay by me and see what 
they do to me." That showed how hard his mind was working 
and how he was trying to cling to his consciousness. 

He was wildly delirious all that day, and at night time he was 
very uneasy. I am not given to asking favors of the doctors, but I 
did beg them very hard that night to let me stay in the prison with 
my brother. I think it was through Dr. Higson— he was always 
very humane — that Father Dominick was also allowed to stay in 
the prison. 

WHILE UNCONSCIOUS, PRISON DOCTORS FEED 

HIM 

Although I was not allowed on the landing, I took occasional 
peeps to see what was going on, and they fed him all through 
Wednesday night. They did not begin to feed him until Wednesday 
night, when he was quite unconscious. When he got quiet again 
he was conscious for a few minutes, and he .saw me in the room 
and he beckoned me and said, "I am afraid they have tricked me. 
Have they?" And I said, "I am afraid they have." And he said, 
"What did they give me?" And I said, "Meat juice." And he 
said, "Wait a minute. We will have to keep cool now." And the 
nurse came over and said I was not to talk to him. And then he 
got very angry. In that delirium he got very angry a couple of 
times before he entirely lost consciousness. And he said, "Go away, 
nurse; I must speak to my sister." And the nurse said, "You must 
not speak to her." And he said, "Go away. Go away. Go away. 
Go away." Again and again he said it. And then he lapsed back 
into unconsciousness. And I said, "Nurse, please go away for a 
minute." And I said to him, "It is all right now." And he said, 
"Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait. Wait." He repeated 
"wait" about a half dozen times. He was clinging on to his con- 
sciousness as long as he could, and then he went off into delirium 
again. That was the result of the nurse's interference. 

EXCLUDED FROM PRISON FOR EXPOSING 
HOME SECRETARY'S LIE 

I got permission to stay there all that night. The next thing 1 
want to call your attention to is that in Friday morning's papers 
appeared a remark by the Home Secretary. He had been questioned 



325 

in the House of Commons by an .honest man, Lieutenant-Commander 
Kenworthy, about forcibly feeding my brother in his weak state. 
And he answered that the Lord. Mayor was riot being forcibly fed, 
but that a cup was held to his lips and he was swallowing it volun- 
tarily- Now, you will see how thoughtless people could look at 
that, and I knew it was more propaganda. And that morning I 
tried to get hold of Dr. Higson — and if I got him before Dr. 
Griffiths was there, I usually succeeded in getting the truth out of 
him before he was coached. And I said to him, "You know very 
well that that action of swallowing is a reflex action; that it is not 
a voluntary action." And he said that my brother was quite un- 
conscious that he was swallowing, and that it was a reflex action. 
And I said, "Have I your permission to quote that in public?" And 
he said, "Yes." And I went away and immediately made it public. 
I sent it to the House of Commons and to Mr. Shortt, and asked 
Mr. Shortt to retract the lie he had stated the night before. I sent 
it over home, and I also gave it to the newspaper correspondents 
of the whole world, that statement of the doctor's with his name 
attached to it. The result was my expulsion from the prison. I 
am quite sure that that was why I was forbidden to enter the prison 
after Friday. 

On Saturday morning, as it unfortunately happened, I was the 
first person on that day. We used to change about, taking turns. 
It was my turn to visit first that day. I arrived at the prison at 
half-past eight. My brother had been on duty all night, and I was 
to relieve him. I got to the prison gate — there are two gates; there 
is a large wooden gate, and then about ten feet inside of that there 
is a big iron gate. 

Q. Senator Norris: Now, Miss MacSwiney, so that there will not 
be any misapprehension about your testimony, you said that that 
was your first day there? 

A. No, it was my turn to pay the early morning visit that day. 
One of us would come on at eight-thirty, another at noon, and 
another at night, and so on. This morning it happened to be my 
turn to go on first, and I stepped up to the gate and started to go 
in. And the warder said, "What is your name, please?" It was 
quite extraordinary to be asked your name after you have been 
going there every day for over two months. And I said, "Mac- 
Swiney." And he said, "Your Christian name, please?" And I 
said, "Miss Mary MacSwiney." And he said, "I cannot admit you." 
And I said, "On whose orders?" And he said, "On the governor's." 
And I said, "May I see the governor?" And he said, "The governor 
is not here." And he ordered me to step outside the prison gate. 



326 

I would not go, and stepped into the waiting room there and stayed 
there. As the officials came in I questioned each one of them and 
asked them on whose orders I was kept from seeing my brother. 
And they said, "Home Office orders." And I asked them if it 
would apply to anybody but myself, and they said no, I was the 
only one. 

In that day's papers there was a statement that on the day before 
there was a moment when my brother had recognized my sister, 
and he had asked her what we were all here for and what we were 
doing in London. And she did not want to upset that moment of 
consciousness, and she simply said, "Nothing. You are all right." 
That appeared in the morning's papers, and the order to exclude 
her came at one o'clock that day. The order to exclude me came 
from my publishing Dr. Higson's statement that my brother was not 
voluntarily swallowing. And she was expelled because my brother 
recognized her. 

They all tried to get me out of the prison, but they did not suc- 
ceed. They did not use force. My sister-in-law came along then, 
and she could get through the gate, but was only allowed to see 
her husband for a few minutes, and then he was not conscious. 

FORCIBLY EJECTED FROM PRISON GATE 

We stayed there until half-past ten that night. I do not want to 
stress it, but I had had breakfast at half-past seven, and did not 
have any food until twelve that night. I would have gone on a 
hunger strike of my own and stayed in that waiting room if they 
had not used force to get us out. At ten o'clock the deputy governor 
came along and said, "Miss MacSwiney, it is time to lock up." 
And I said, "Very well, lock up." And he said, "I am afraid you 
must go out." And I said, "I will not go out until I see my 
brother." And he said, "You must, for it is time to lock up the 
prison." And I said, "It is strange to be locking up a place that 
is always locked up." And I said, "If you will let me see my 
brother for five minutes, I will go away, but not before." Then he 
said, "The local police have orders to put you out by force." I 
said, "Very well; if the local police — enough of them — come in and 
use force to put two women out, they can do so. But I will not 
go voluntarily." 

I can only tell you this: they started in at ten o'clock, and it was 
five minutes to eleven before they got us out. The police inspector 
came and tried to get us out by "moral suasion," and I said there 
was no morality about anything they were doing. He argued with 



327 

my sister and did no better. They finally technically arrested us. 
That is, in England if a policeman puts his hand on your shoulder 
and says you are under arrest, you are arrested. Then they led 
us out of the prison, and a taxi was waiting for us, and took us 
home. And then when I got home, about twelve o'clock, I got the 
first thing I had had to eat since early that morning. 

INHUMANLY KEPT FROM BROTHER'S DEATH BED 

Sunday was just a repetition of Saturday for my sister and my- 
self, except that we were both compelled to stay outside the outer 
gate of the prison. On Saturday we were allowed to wait down in 
the little waiting room, and on Sunday we had to stand in the street. 
And if I have given you that in a lot of detail, it was not to draw 
your attention to our personal suffering. But if that had happened 
in Germany, if two women had been kept from their brother's death 
bed and made to stand on the street during the long, cold day, you 
would have heard a great deal about it as a German atrocity. I 
mention it simply because it was a British atrocity. I do not want 
to draw attention to our personality in any way. Sunday was 
simply a repetition of Saturday. And on Monday my brother died. 

CROWN SEEKS VERDICT OF SUICIDE AT INQUEST 

I simply want to say something about the inquest that my sister- 
in-law did not mention this morning, and that is this: that they did 
everything — every single thing they could — to bring in a verdict of 
suicide. I do not know anything about the law about it, but I heard 
it quite late on Tuesday evening that if my brother was found to 
be a suicide, they could hold his body. I have mentioned earlier 
that we had summoned this specialist, Sir Norman Moore, whorh 
we called to see my brother and to examine his medicine. We did 
not summon him to the inquest, because we did not think it neces- 
sary, and you must give twenty-four hours' notice to summon wit- 
nesses. On Tuesday evening, when we heard that they were trying 
to bring in a verdict of suicide, we immediately called up Dr. 
Norman Moore and told him the circumstances and asked him to 
come and tell the jury that the one thing my brother did not want 
to do was to die. I talked with him myself over the telephone, and 
he did not want to come. The jury was asked to bring in a verdict 
of suicide, and they did not do it. They brought in an open verdict. 



328 

BODY BRUTALLY SEIZED FROM RELATIVES BY 
ENGLISH AUTHORITIES 

Our solicitor asked them for the body, and the crown solicitor 
jumped up and said, "Where is he to be buried?" And our solicitor 
said, "In Cork, of course." And they said, "You cannot have the 
body to be buried any place outside of England without a permit." 
My sister-in-law has told you how we finally got permission from 
the Home Office to take the body. 

Q. Senator Walsh: I would like to ask if there is anything else 
between that and the Holyhead incident? 

A. No, there is nothing. 

At Crewe we were told that when we got to Holyhead we were 
to go on a boat and go straight to Cork. My brother was sent for 
by the police inspector. I do not know that you are aware that a 
large body of police traveled on the train from Euston to Holyhead. 
They tried to play a trick on us, and tried to send the train off 
without the friends knowing it. And then my sister and myself 
went into the van where my brother's remains were, and said we 
would not go away. Then they started the train and sent us away 
to get us outside of London. We were then informed by the police 
that the remains were to be put on the steamship Rathmore and 
taken to Dublin, and that not more than twenty of my brother's 
friends were to be allowed to travel with my brother's remains. \ 
consultation was held with my sister, and we decided unanimously 
that we would not one of us go on that ship. If they took my 
brother's remains away from us by force, and then we went on the 
ship, it would be a tacit consent to their action. Some people have 
seemed to think that we were very hard-hearted to let my brother's 
remains travel like that without any of his friends. We did what 
we knew he would have liked us to do — what would be for Ireland's 
good first. 

When Holyhead was reached we went and stood by the van where 
my brother's remains were. My younger brother went and inter- 
viewed the station master, and we were told finally that the body 
was to be taken by force, and they came into the van to take it. 
I asked the station master if he was not going to fulfil the contract 
for which he was paid — the contract to deliver my brother's re- 
mains in Dublin. He said no; that he had government orders, and 
they must be obeyed. And I said that no man had a right to obey 
an order like that. Then we were asked to go outside, and we 
refused. And we decided that this time technical arrest, like the 
laying of an officer's hand on your shoulder, was not sufficient, and 



329 

that this time we ought to resent by bodily resistance the second 
arrest of the body of a dead man. I might add that when we got 
on the platform at Holyhead there were about one hundred fifty 
Black-and-Tans there, and their faces as they sneered and jeered 
through the window at my brother's body was the most evil thing 
I believe I have ever seen. 

Finally all the friends gathered around the coffin, and they refused 
to move. I would rather be spared the details of what followed. 
There were some men first: I can only say that I was the first 
woman to be picked up like a bale of goods and thrown out — 
thrown out literally — onto the platform. My brother jumped to 
try to save me, and he was nearly choked by four policemen. And 
a military officer jumped over a wagon — a small cart — and took 
him by the back of the neck and tried to choke him. He had his 
arms around me, and I threw my arms around him to try to save 
him from being choked to death. The incident was a very painful 
one. And I thought every instant that my younger brother would 
drop dead before my eyes, because the treatment he received by the 
Canadian authorities in a Canadian prison during the war has 
injured his heart; and a doctor in America has told him that any 
excitement is apt to cause him to drop dead. And I was afraid he 
was going to drop dead that night. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What time of day was that? 

A. Eleven o'clock at night; between eleven and twelve. 

Q. What was done then after that? 

A. They took the body, and increased the number that could 
travel with it from twenty to seventy-five; and when we refused to 
go, the police inspector asked Mr. O'Brien to point out to the rela- 
tives the sacredness of the remains and what respect was due them. 
As if we needed to be pointed out the sacredness of his body! 

The body was taken by the Rathmore to Dublin. We proceeded 
to Dublin, where the funeral was carried out, and then we went on 
to Cork by special train. In the evening I got a letter that my 
brother's body was at the customs house and we might have it. It 
was quarter past nine when I got that word. They tried to get every- 
body in the city to take that body before they communicated with 
us. I am glad to say that the citizens of Cork did exactly what we 
would have had them do, and refused to touch his remains because 
they had no authority. 

INTERMENT OF LORD MAYOR'S BODY IN 
MARTYRS' PLOT 

Q. Mr. Frank P. Walsh: And his remains were interred where? 
A. In what is called the Martyrs' Plot. 
Q. And that plot is where? 



330 

A. It is devoted to those who have been the victims of the recent 
outrages in Cork. Lord Mayor MacCurtain was the first to be 
buried there. The fallen members of the Irish Republican Army 
are also there, and the other deceased hunger strikers have been 
buried there since. It is fast filling up; and at the rate that Eng- 
land is killing people there, it seems that they would like it to take 
in the whole country. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: There are a couple of matters the Commission 
would like to ask you about. 

MILITARY TRIBUNALS REPLACE CIVIL COURTS 

Q. Chairman Howe: Could you tell us something more, Miss 
MacSwiney, about the extent to which the present Republican courts 
in Ireland are functioning? 

A. Yes. I would like to refer first to what I said yesterday — 
that the courts, the English courts, were sitting in state behind 
barbed wire and sand bags. That was true until a couple of months 
ago, when they brought in the Coercion Act, so that these judges 
do not sit any longer, because they have military courts now. 

JUDGMENTS OF REPUBLICAN COURTS PROVE 
IRISH FIT FOR SELF-GOVERNMENT 

Another point that I would like to emphasize is that the English 
say that we Irish will never be fit for self-government. But there 
is one instance I would like to tell that I am sure a good many here 
have never heard of. It happened while we were at Brixton. It 
was related in all of the papers, and in some it was called a judg- 
ment of Solomon. There were two brothers who for many years 
had been fighting about the division of the large farm where they 
lived. One brother was married, and he wanted a settlement. They 
had been into English courts three or four times, and they wanted 
a decision. The fight between the brothers was getting to be very 
bitter. The case was finally taken into a Sinn Fein court, and the 
decision was very interesting. It was this: the elder brother was to 
make the division of the farm as he considered it fair, and the 
younger brother was to take his choice of the halves. I do not 
think that since the time of Solomon you have had a more fair 
judgment than that. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: May I ask if you would attribute that 
to the Irish character or to the absence of lawyers from the courts? 

A. Perhaps to both, Mr. Thomas. 



331 

SHOOTING OF ENGLISH SPIES AN UNAVOIDABLE 
NECESSITY JUSTIFIED BY CODE OF WAR 

Another matter to which I would like to refer was the shooting of 
the fourteen military officers in Dublin. Of course I was not there 
and do not know all of the details of the case. And yet I would 
know from my own confidence in the Irish Government that that 
was just. And I can tell you that those fourteen officers who were 
shot were fourteen absolutely expert men who were sent over to 
get the whole threads of our organization into their hands; that 
they had captured vital documents of ours which they were about 
to use; and death was absolutely necessary by the laws of the 
Republic. They had been infringing on our rights. They were 
military officers doing secret service work for their government. 
That I know. And I know perfectly well that they were not shot 
without good reason, and that they were a very great danger to our 
men, whose lives we value. Also, a very good point is made of the 
fact that one man was shot in the presence of his wife. But many of 
our men have been shot in the presence of their wives; and in the 
case of the British government it is not necessary, because they 
could get our men at any time. I know that it is not a nice thing 
to happen, but in this case it was unavoidable. 

Q. Senator Walsh : What is the nature of the notice that is given 
by the Irish Republic to British officers who are going to be killed? 

A. I do not know that definitely, but it has been publicly stated 
that certain things are forbidden by the Irish Government; that 
they are crimes, and that any man who does those things will be 
shot. In addition, I think there is a notice sent to every man who 
is going to be shot, and he is warned. Some of them are captured 
and tried before a court in person before they are condemned to be 
shot. 

Q. But if the British officer is known to commit an act of treason 
to the Irish Government, is there some communication sent to him 
warning him that if he does not leave the country he will be shot? 

A. I understand that there is. I have no personal knowledge 
of that. 

Q. But you understand that a warning is given to cease some 
kind of activity that is considered harmful by the Irish Government, 
and that if they do not do so they will be killed? 

A. Yes, I understand that. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: There are two points that I under- 
stand you to make: first, that your general confidence in the Irish 
Republic is such that the shooting, you think, is justified according 



332 

to the code of war. Do I also understand you to say that these 
fourteen men were military spies? 

A. I do not know personally that these fourteen men were mili- 
tary intelligence men, but I am quite sure if they were not they 
would not have been shot. 

Q. I understood these fourteen men were connected with courts- 
martial ; but you claim now they were connected with the military 
intelligence service? 

A. Yes, but you must understand that I was in the midst of the 
affairs of my brother's death, and since then I have been so occupied 
with his papers that I have not given great attention to the matter. 
But I heard that this was the case; that they were secret service men. 

Q. Do you think that you and Mr. Frank Walsh could gather 
further evidence on that point? 

A. Yes, I think I could gather it. 

Mr. Frank P. Walsh: I will undertake to get it. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You think these men were spies? 

A. Yes, that was my understanding. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: As I understand it, there is a distinction 
between men living in barracks who have a definite military duty 
to perform, and those who come into the country as spies to trace 
down men, and who often go about in civilian clothes to conceal 
their identity. 

A. Yes, that is it. 

Q. But you understood that these fourteen men were not con- 
nected with open military leaders, but had come to Ireland to spy 
there and seek the lives of your men? 

A. Yes, that is it. 

EDUCATIONAL PROGRAM OF THE IRISH 
REPUBLIC 

Q. I believe you told me, Miss MacSwiney, that as you had told 
something of the educational system that had existed heretofore, 
that you would like briefly to state what is being done now by your 
nation for the education of your children. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Senator Walsh: And I would like in that connection for you 
to state what you have observed since this movement began in the 
way of giving stamina and strength and character to the future of 
your country — what effect this movement has had upon the character 
of the people. 

A. Yes, I would like to speak of thai, but 1 shall not dwell at 



333 

great length upon it. Yesterday I explained to you the method of 
education of what I reluctantly called the "better class" of the 
country — that it anglicized them; it made them think that everything 
English was good and that everything Irish was something to be 
ashamed of. Thus people sometimes claimed to be Irish, but they 
were proud to be known as West Britons. Once when I spoke of 
the Irish element, one of these persons said to me, "Yes, that is 
the rowdy element." 

Q. Chairman Howe: Have you any connection with the new 
school system in Ireland? 

A. Well, I was the founder of a school for girls. I founded 
it in connection with my dismissal in 1916. When I found the 
secondary schools of the country were so anglicized that one could 
not teach in them and be Irish, I took things into my own hands 
and opened up a school in our home, and it has grown very rapidly. 

Q. How many pupils have you now? 

A. About one hundred. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Is there another school of that same kind 
in Dublin? 

A. Yes, founded afterwards by Miss Gavan Duffy in Dublin. 
It has been very successful, too. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Does your Republic make provision for 
schools? 

A. Not financially yet, but there is a minister of education that 
will take charge later on. But these two schools had this advantage: 
that we who started them had the confidence of our fellow citizens; 
that we were able to teach, in the first place, and that we were also 
able to give, from the standpoint of general culture and refinement, 
anything that the pro-British schools could give. That is the spirit 
of the school : we give the best that any school around us could 
give of the culture and refinement of the world generally. We do 
not confine ourselves to our own country, but our own country is 
the center from which everything starts — the same as in American 
schools America is the center from which things start. You learn 
your own history first. France learns her own history first. And 
I know that England does. 

We were the first girls' school in Ireland — of course, Padraic 
Pearse did it at his school — but we were the first in Ireland to 
start in with Irish culture. We taught them, when they said they 
were proud of being Irish, we taught them what that meant. We 
taught Irish history from the Irish point of view; and when the 
books did not agree with that — because I have told you that the 
books were written in England for Ireland — then the books had to 



334 

go to the wall, and the truth was told. But the people who sent 
their children to our schools were not all Irish Republicans. One 
man was reproved for sending his children to us, and he said, "I 
will take my political orders from my party, but I will not take 
orders from it as to where to send my children to school." We 
have done what we could in Cork to destroy anglicization, and so 
has St. Brigid's school in Dublin. 

This year we had no government grant to speak of, and we were 
afraid we would have to close down for lack of funds; and a com- 
mittee of Irish friends in both Cork and Dublin decided that it 
would be a national calamity to close our schools, so they got 
together a committee and asked people to take shares to finance 
both schools until An Dail l was prepared to take over control. 
And the result was that the committee took over the financing of 
the school and left the management of the school to us. 

SCHOOLS NOT USED BY REPUBLICANS AS 
PROPAGANDA AGENCIES 

Q. Commissioner Addams: As an educator who has to teach 
history to children, you would regret very much, would you not, 
that these British officers had a secret trial and were condemned 
to death in their absence? 

A. Yes, I certainly would say that it is regrettable that such 
things have to be done. I dare say that in your Revolutionary War 
you had to do a great many things that you regret having had to do. 
And I dare say in teaching your children their history, you touch 
as lightly as possible on the things you had to do. 

Q. The children are very much educated by current events, by 
what is happening at the moment. Do you do anything to counter- 
act what is being done all around them? 

A. With regard to those things, the children we have at school 
come from all sorts of parents; and we have decided for the present 
that we will not teach them directly the Irish Republican point of 
view any more than any other point of view. But they get it in- 
sensibly. The atmosphere of the school is Irish. It is the first girls' 
school of the better class where the atmosphere is Irish. 

THE NEW SPIRIT OF THE IRISH PEOPLE 

I would like to stress another point. Up to the time the Volun- 
teer movement started, there was an atmosphere of — I do not like 



1 An Dail — the national parliament. 



335 

to call it slavery — but a very unpleasant atmosphere in Ireland. 
People were ashamed to hold up their heads. There was a time 
when people went about with what you would call a hang-dog 
expression. But now the young men and women go about holding 
up their heads, knowing perfectly well that they are acting in a way 
that future generations will be proud of them. There is not a man 
or woman today who is not interested in the Irish Republic — who 
is not proud to be Irish. 

And you must remember that we have in Ireland today a Repub- 
lican army that is both large and victorious. And if England 
succeeds in shooting down the men, the women will take their 
places. And if she shoots down the women, the children will take 
their places. And if they shoot down the children, the blades of 
grass will spring up into armed men and take their places. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: That is all very easy to understand. 
But how do you teach the children about affairs where men are shot 
down in their hotel rooms and in their homes, and things like that? 

A. Yes, we have been asked questions like that in school. We 
were asked one day in school in a religious lesson what the ethics 
of shooting policemen were. And the answer I gave the child was 
this: We are at war at present. During the period that we are 
passing through, many things have to be done that we may think 
are regrettable; that those things have to be done by the Council 
that is directing our affairs; and until we can get a knowledge of 
the facts on which our Supreme Council's actions are based, that 
we cannot judge; and that therefore we must suspend judgment for 
the time. But that if we find our government guilty of cruelty, we 
must blame our government as well as any other government. But 
until we have all the facts, we should not pass judgment. This 
was the answer I gave to a class of senior girls. But I may say 
to you that I think we are born politicians in Ireland; and we do 
not have to explain things to the children. As soon as they are 
out of the cradle they know about as much about these things as 
we do. 

Now, Mr. Walsh, I think that is about all. 

FINANCIAL SUPPORT OF REPUBLICAN 
GOVERNMENT 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: I would like to ask you about the 
arrangements for financing your government. Have you a plan of 
finance at work? 

A. The government floated a loan in Ireland some time ago, 



336 

and they asked for a quarter of a million, and that quarter of a 
million was oversubscribed. The people are incredibly generous. 
When money is needed, it will come. 

JUSTICE AND FAIR PLAY ASKED OF AMERICANS 

There are one or two things 1 would like to say while we are 
closing up at the end of these two days, and they are this (I would 
ask the Chairman's permission to stand in telling them) : I want, 
in leaving you, to ask you to keep in mind one or two points. The 
long story I have been telling you is to show you how all the time 
English propaganda is being used to discredit us before all the 
world and among the nations. And I want you, whenever you are 
told anything about Ireland from any English source, to remember 
what I have told you today, and to say, "We will not judge until 
we have heard the other side." You have been told lies and lies 
and lies about us. And one of the manufactured lies I want to 
scotch is that you are told day after day that this co-called Sepa- 
ratist Movement in Ireland is only the work of the extremist section, 
which the English people call the "murder gang"; and that the 
majority of the Irish people, who are not Sinn Feiners, are moderate 
people who are sighing for peace. There is no such division in 
Ireland at all. And please stress that. And I ask the newspaper 
men to state that fairly before the American public. I want to 
speak to the American people. I know the Irish in America are 
with us, and to talk to them is like taking coals to Newcastle. I 
don't want — I was most uncomplimentary to some of my Irish- 
American sympathizers this morning, and I told them I didn't want 
to talk to them. I want to talk to the people who call themselves 
"one hundred per cent. Americans" — although I should think I 
would have to go to the Cherokee Indians to do that! But I want 
to talk to the Americans who are anti-Irish. And I want to ask 
them, in the name of humanity, in the name of civilization and of 
the freedom they said they fought for, to be fair to us. We are not 
a divided people. We are one. There is a little corner in Ireland 
of English settlers, but they are Irish now, although they have kept 
some of the English characteristics up in the north of Ireland. 
That is one of our domestic problems. But we Irish are not a 
problem of England: we are an international problem, and the 
world will have to recognize it. And there will be no peace for 
England and there will be no peace for the world until it is settled. 
And I know that you American people have recognized that, and 
that this American Commission has done its best to try and settle 
that problem in the interests of world peace. 



33? 

NOT A FEW EXTREMISTS BUT INDIVISIBLE IRISH 
PEOPLE DEMAND INDEPENDENCE 

I would ask you, when you are told lies about the extremist section 
that will accept no reconciliation, and the moderate Sinn Fein ele- 
ment, to remember that I have told you that there is no such thing ; 
that the whole movement in Ireland today is one and indivisible; 
that we are out for an Irish republic; that we are out for complete 
separation from our oppressor; that there is no government in 
Ireland today supported by the people except the government with 
the ideals President de Valera stands for and the ideals Arthur 
Griffith stands for, and the rest of those men, and the weakest woman 
and child among us. We want our Republic, and we will have it 
with or without the help of the world. For when men and women 
and children are willing to die for a cause, that cause must triumph 
in the end. And all we ask from the American people is this, that 
they should give us justice and fair play; that Americans should 
not listen to England when she says that a small body of extremists 
is the cause of all this trouble. That is not true. I would like to 
have you remember what 1 have said today: that the cause of 
Ireland is an Irish Republic, and that men, women, and children 
are united on that point. 

ENGLAND'S EFFORTS TO CRUSH IRELAND IN- 
FLICTS SUFFERING ON WOMEN AND CHILDREN 

The second point I wish to leave with you is, as I stated yesterday, 
that Mr. Arthur Griffith said that today is the Valley Forge of Ire- 
land, and tomorrow will be our Yorktown — our day of victory. 
I do not need to tell you what a bad time you had at Valley Forge. 
But there is this difference: then it was your men who were suffer- 
ing; but now it is our women and children. It is bad enough for 
the women, but in any case it is very hard to see the children suffer. 

You must also remember that by constant and unremitting hard- 
ship, hunger, and cold you can break the spirit of any people, if 
you keep it up long enough. And that is what England is trying 
to do today — what she tried to do four hundred years ago under 
Mountjoy and Carewe she is trying to do today under the Black- 
and-Tans — to break down the people by destroying the sources 
from which the people get their food, and thus starve them into 
submission. 



338 

AMERICA CAN RELIEVE SUFFERING OF WOMEN 
AND CHILDREN 

I do not like to ask favors for anything they need. But I would 
like to remind you that the first ship that reached America bearing 
food in your dire extremity came from Ireland. And I should like 
to ask Americans to take care that during the coming winter, which 
is apt to be very hard in Ireland — to see to it that the women and 
children do not suffer. The men can suffer. And the women can 
suffer. But it is hard to see the children suffer. And we do not 
want our people to be so oppressed by hunger and cold that their 
spirit can be broken and they can be forced to surrender. 

And remember that there is no religious difference in Ireland 
dividing the people, and never will be. There is no division in our 
ranks. 

I ask you, when you hear England's lies about us, not to believe 
her until you have heard our side of it. Let us tell you the truth. 
I have told you the truth and nothing but the truth, and all that I 
have said can be verified from papers and state documents. I have 
not told the whole of the truth, because it would take many weeks 
to tell you all that we have had to suffer. But I ask you to send us 
relief now, and I ask the Americans, the anti-Irish American citi- 
zens, not to believe all the lies England tells about us until they 
hear our side of the question. 

CRITICAL SUFFERING CAUSED BY DESTRUCTION 

OF CROPS, BURNING OF CREAMERIES, AND 

CLOSING OF SHOPS 

Q. Senator Walsh: Miss MacSwiney, may I ask you a question 
or two? 

A. Certainly. 

Q. Miss MacSwiney, do you know of any specific case of suffer- 
ing in Ireland, and of denial of food or destruction of crops by 
English authorities? 

A. Oh, well, in- every town they have devastated they have de- 
stroyed food, and the crops on the farms all around the county of 
Cork. And they have, as I think you have heard this morning, 
they have destroyed the town of Tralee. 

Q. We want to be accurate. Just what do you know about that? 

A. At Tralee there was someone shot, and the police were boy- 
cotted — the police were not spoken to. Decent people no longer 



339 

speak to them any more, anyway. And the Black-and-Tans closed 
all the shops. 

Q. All the shops? 

A. Yes, the bakeries and the milk shops, so that milk could not 
be got for the little babies. The shops were not allowed to be 
opened, and the Black-and-Tans stood there and refused point blank 
to allow the women and children to get the food that was waiting 
for them. They eventually found they were carrying it too far, 
and on the fourth day they allowed certain women to buy milk and 
bread — and nothing else. And I know this: that the excuse they 
gave was a shortage of food in the town, and that what was there 
was necessary for them, and they came and got the food, and the 
women and children had to do without it. That was their excuse — 
that they needed the food and the rebels had to do without. 

Q. Senator Norris: How do they destroy the crops? 

A. They burn them. They burn the hay and the corn, and they 
set fire to everything that is growing. They set fire to the cream- 
eries, and of course the creameries arc a tremendous loss through- 
out the country. Hundreds and thousands of men have been thrown 
out of employment by the burning of the creameries. And now 
those men have no employment. 

Q. Can you give us any idea of the total number of creameries 
that were burned? 

A. I do not know the total number, but in the week before I left 
Ireland there were nine creameries and one hundred one farms 
burned. 

Q. How many all told all over Ireland? 

Chairman Howe: It was reported last week that thirty creameries 
had been burned. 

The Witness: Thirty creameries. That would be most of the 
large creameries in the country. You can get the exact number. 
The Irish authorities issue the figures every week, and you can get 
them there, I am sure. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: We have them. We can give them to you. 

Q. 'Senator Walsh: So the destruction of homes and the burning 
of farms and creameries and mills has caused a condition of unem- 
ployment and a shortage of food that has reached a critical state? 

ENGLISH AUTHORITIES PREVENT TRANSPORT OF 
FOOD TO CITIES 

A. Yes, absolutely. Another thing that I would like to stress is 
this: that when the railroads began to be stopped, we made pro- 
visions for the transportation of food into the cities so that there 



340 

would be no shortage, for with the exception of flour, we have 
plenty of food in the country. We had arranged for the transpor- 
tation of food by motor car. And they made a new law that no 
motor car could travel more than twenty miles from the home of 
its owner, and no motor car could be out other than between the 
hours of eight o'clock and six in the evening, and no motor car 
over a certain weight could be owned by anybody except the British 
Government. Of course the British Government would not say, 
"We will make laws to prevent your rationing food, so that you will 
starve in the cities." But they prevented it by this law. Of course, 
anybody can see that you cannot bring food from within twenty 
miles of a great city. All these things are done to keep up starva- 
tion. And we do need America's help to keep off starvation from 
our people. And I think, on the mere ground of humanity, that 
surely in the interests of humanity you should take care that no 
people like ours should be allowed to starve during the coming 
winter. And certainly our people will be starved, absolutely 
starved during the coming winter, without your help. 

AMERICA NOT ASKED TO GO TO WAR FOR IRE- 
LAND BUT TO PREVENT STARVATION 

I want to say again, that when I said yesterday that you should 
not have sheathed your sword until all of the small nations, includ- 
ing Ireland, had their independence, do not think that from any- 
thing I said I mean that you should go to war on account of Ireland. 
England is your ally. She would be your natural ally if she would 
behave with justice. But what I ask of you is this: you have your 
Red Cross work; you have your charitable hearts; you have money 
enough, even among the anti-Irish population in this country; and 
I ask you to keep our women and children from starving to death. 
We know perfectly well that you will not go to war over Ireland, 
unless there is some other issue between you and England. 

I thank you for the patience with which you have listened to me 
for the past two days — for a day and a half — as you have done; 
and I thank the American Commission for what you have done for 
Ireland in the interests of humanity and in the interests of truth. 
I thank you very much. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 

******** 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: There are four or five witnesses who have come 
in now on this late train. And I was going to suggest that if you 



341 

would want to adjourn now. that we could finish up their testimony 
tomorrow. 

(The Commissioners confer.) 

Chairman Howe: The hearings will reconvene at this place to- 
morrow morning at nine-thirty. 

Senator Walsh: Are you able to produce any evidence as to who 
the murderers of Lord Mayor MacCurtain were, the circumstances 
of his murder, and in what way, if at all, the British authorities 
were connected with that murder? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I think I see what you want. I think it is im- 
portant enough to do it in a direct way. And we will undertake 
to do it. 

FIRST-HAND EVIDENCE AND NOT HEARSAY 
DESIRED BY COMMISSION 

At this hearing I want to say this: We are in communication with 
your secretary and chairman, and they said they wanted to hear 
Mrs. MacSwiney and Miss MacSwiney first; and we notified your 
secretary that we thought that some of these ex-R. I. C. men are 
here in this country and could be produced before you. From what 
your chairman said, I take it that you do not want anything long 
and detailed; so we have sought to find only witnesses who have 
actual personal experiences to tell. And we will have these wit- 
nesses from time to time, and after consultation with you we can 
present them. 

Commissioner Thomas: While Mr. Frank Walsh is here, I would 
like to raise a point for his advice on the matter. We have got some 
very remarkable testimony from Mrs. and Miss MacSwiney. Would 
it be in any degree unfair to further witnesses to ask that they 
confine themselves to those matters of which they have fairly first- 
hand knowledge of the facts? I say fairly first-hand, because I 
know the impossibility of making that absolute. You see, we have 
got a very vivid picture now of the situation as a whole, but what 
we need are specific instances of actual deeds. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I understand that from this Committee's first 
hearings, that they would not carry on these hearings according to 
strict rules of evidence, as that would be followed in court; that 
they wished, first, to have first-hand testimony; and, secondly, testi- 
mony from persons who were so close to events that they would 
have similar to first-hand testimony, and put the Commission on the 
track of what actually occurred. Of course, the idea was to avoid 



342 

hearsay testimony; and the witnesses we are going to put on will, 
I think, reach that result very easily. 

Senator Norris: Will your witnesses tomorrow know about the 
murder of Lord Mayor MacCurtain ? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh : I think that I can find such witnesses. 

Senator Walsh: Perhaps Miss MacSwiney could do that, or Mrs. 
MacSwiney, because her husband followed him. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: This afternoon I was asked to limit her testi- 
mony to certain things. 

Senator Norris: But if she was present at the coroner's inquest, 
she can testify with first-hand knowledge. 

Adjournment 4:45 p. m. 



SECOND HEARINGS 

ON CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Session Three 

Before the Commission, sitting at the Hotel La Fayette, Friday, 
December 10, 1920, 9:50 a. m. 

Chairman Howe: At the suggestion of Senator Norris, we have 
asked Miss MacSwiney to come back this morning to make a state- 
ment relative to the Mayor MacCurtain matter. Miss MacSwiney 
was at the inquest, we understand. 

Mr. Malone, some of the Commission have to leave this afternoon 
at three o'clock, and if you will, arrange your witnesses so that we 
can get through today. 

Mr. D. F. Malone (of counsel) : Will the Commission sit to- 
morrow, Mr. Howe? 

Chairman Howe: We very much want to get through today if 
possible. 

TESTIMONY ON RECALL OF MISS MARY 
MACSWINEY CONCERNING THE MURDER 
OF LORD MAYOR THOMAS MAC- 
CURTAIN OF CORK 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: How long have you known Mayor Mac- 
Curtain? 

A. I have known him intimately from the beginning of the 
Volunteer Movement. 

Q. Did you know him in a personal as well as a political way? 

A. Yes. Very much more politically at first, but I was after- 
wards very closely associated with his family. 

Q. How old was he when he died? 

A. I think he was thirty-six. 

Q. And he was a friend of your brother's? 

A. Yes, very. They were very intimate friends and very devoted 
to each other. My brother had a very great admiration for him, 
and I know that he had a great admiration for my brother. 

343 



344 

AN OFFICER IN THE REPUBLICAN ARMY 

Q. What was the position of Mayor MacCurtain in the Repub- 
lican forces? 

A. He was brigade commandant; that is what would correspond 
to a brigadier general. 

Q. And your brother was next in command? 

A. Right. My brother became chief commandant when Mayor 
MacCurtain was murdered, as he also succeeded him as Lord Mayor 
of the city. 

I 
THE MACCURTAIN FAMILY 

Q. I think it will facilitate matters before the Commission very 
much if you will describe the conditions leading up to this murder, 
and the situation of his family, and state briefly the testimony you 
heard given at the inquest. 

A. As I said, Lord Mayor MacCurtain was a man of about 
thirty-six at the time of his death. He had a wife and five children 
at the time. The eldest was ten years of age when he was murdered. 
I may say that five months after his death, his wife gave birth to 
two other children, twins, who were dead when they were born. 

CLOSELY ASSOCIATED WITH LORD MAYOR MAC- 

SWINEY IN POLITICAL ACTIVITIES AND 

IMPRISONMENTS 

He was a man of very sweet disposition, always a pleasant laugh 
and kind word, even to those with whom he differed most politi- 
cally. He was also a very good, shrewd business man. He did his 
best to smooth over matters in Cork when Mr. Redmond, as 1 
explained the other day, caused a sort of split in the Volunteer 
movement. He, of course, remained on the right side, and he did 
a great deal to avoid any bitterness. He was a particular friend 
of my brother for years. They had been associated in the Gaelic 
League movement and in the industrial movement. But whereas 
my brother never joined the Sinn Fein group, as I explained the 
first day of my evidence, Mr. MacCurtain did. He joined the 
Arthur Griffith movement. But of course there is no such thing 
now as the constitutional Sinn Fein. But when in 1905 the move- 
ment was first started, it was a constitutional movement, and Mr. 
MacCurtain did belong to it. I did not know him then. But my 
brother never belonged to it. 



345 

In the troubled times in Ireland, from 1916 onward, they were 
very closely associated. All through that week of the rising they 
were together at what we called the Volunteer Hall, the headquar- 
ters of the Irish Volunteer Army in the city. They were through 
all of the troubles up to that time together, and they both received 
a certain amount of condemnation from a certain section of the 
people who thought that they should have had a rising in the city, 
even though every individual man was shot down. Of course their 
attitude was that the thing that was best for Ireland was the thing 
to be thought of, and not the individual glory of losing your life, 
which is a comparatively easy thing to do. 

Then Mayor MacCurtain, like my brother, had spent most of his 
time in prison. He was not in prison so much or so long; but in 
1916 he was in prison with him until Christmas; and in 1917 he 
was deported, and they returned home to Cork at the same time. 
I do not think he was arrested in October, 1917, the time of my 
brother's first hunger strike. I am not quite certain, but I do not 
think so. But he was arrested in 1917, in February, and they were 
in and out of prison like that. It is a sort of natural thing to be 
spending half of your time in prison. And he was continually on 
the run. Mr. MacCurtain had a flour and mill business. He dealt 
on the wholesale scale. And that business was injured by his fre- 
quent imprisonments. But when he came out of prison in 1918 he 
started his factory. Of course they were always interested in the 
development everywhere of Irish industries. And he started an 
industry and got some machines together, and employed a number 
of people for the manufacture of underclothing. That was going 
ahead splendidly when he was made Lord Mayor. And of course 
he was only inaugurated a very short time when he was murdered. 

ELECTION OF THOMAS MACCURTAIN AS LORD 
MAYOR OF CORK 

Now, Mr. MacCurtain was made Lord Mayor in January, after the 
municipal elections, which resulted in large Sinn Fein majorities all 
over the country. 

Q. Senator Norris: January of what year? 

A. January, 1920. The councillors were elected to the corpora- 
tion, and then the new corporation elected the Lord Mayor. He was 
unanimously chosen. The first thing that the new corporation did 
was to declare allegiance to Dail Eireann. The keeping of that 
resolution declaring allegiance to Dail Eireann, which is the Irish 
Parliament, was one of the charges brought against my brother when 
he was tried in the August following. 



346 

HIS EXCEPTIONAL ADMINISTRATIVE ABILITY 

I alluded to the genial disposition of Mr. MacCurtain. And at 
the same time he was a very competent and capable business man. 
When he was elected Lord Mayor, he won golden opinions from his 
opponents immediately for the masterly way he grasped the affairs 
of the corporation, and the businesslike attitude he took toward it. 
And the attitude not only of the Lord Mayor, but of the whole cor- 
poration, that the business of the city should be carried on in an 
efficient way without any corruption whatever. They were deter- 
mined that economy should be practiced in the city. Wherever you 
have a society like ours, a social system where you have an alien 
people imposing its will on the people, you have a great deal of 
inefficiency, — worthless people pressing you for jobs. I am quite 
sure that the American people know the meaning of the word job. 
And these inefficient people are put into positions, and a great deal 
of money is squandered. The new Republican organization made 
up its mind that this inefficiency should be destroyed forever. The 
salary of the Lord Mayor was six hundred pounds a year. That is 
not a very large amount, and it is not as big as it looks, because 1 
think about one-half of it had to go to certain charities. Indeed, so 
much had to be spent in this way that, although the salary was origi- 
nally only five hundred pounds a year, one hundred pounds was 
added on to it, because there were two additional charities to which 
the Lord Mayor was expected to contribute fifty pounds a year each. 
But the new council decided that that should go, as the first step in 
the direction of economy. The Lord Mayor also did a great deal in 
the way of entertainment, and always began the year with what was 
known as the Lord Mayor's banquet. It was decided that that should 
go, and there should be no extravagance whatever. Everything nec- 
essary for the life of the citizens should be done. But it was not 
thought necessary for the Lord Mayor and his friends to sit around 
a table eating their fill and drinking. That was not considered nec- 
essary for the good of Ireland. They also gave pleasing proof that 
they meant what they said, and that they were not out to make things 
easy for themselves financially. Another rule that they made was 
that the members of the corporation were expected to attend to their 
duties, and above all the Lord Mayor was expected to attend to his 
duties. Some Lord Mayors had gone to the city hall to perform 
their duties perhaps three or four hours out of the week. The new 
Lord Mayor undertook to do differently. It was rather destructive 
of the Lord Mayor's business, but they determined that was what 
had to be done. 



347 

Q. Senator Norris: So that they cut clown his salary and in- 
creased his work? 

A. Yes, exactly, that is what they did. 

WINS AFFECTION OF POLITICAL OPPONENTS BY 
HIS FAIRNESS AND ABILITY 

I should like to stress the wonderfully good influence that Lord 
Mayor MacCurtain had on the Unionist members of the corpora- 
tion. They expected to have a very bad time of it. They found that 
they got just as good treatment as his colleagues. There were two 
representatives of the Federation of Discharged Soldiers and Sailors. 
Owing to the very large number of men that Cork had in the Eng- 
lish army before and during the war, these men were able under the 
proportional representation system to send two members to the cor- 
poration. It did not follow as a matter of fact that they were anti- 
Irish, — as a fact they were not; but they wanted to get what they 
wanted for the former soldiers and sailors from the Republican 
Government. They expected to have a very bad time from the Gov- 
ernment that was opposed to the English army. As a matter of fact 
they did not. They found out that they were accepted as good citi- 
zens, and expected to cooperate for the good of the whole popula- 
tion. All these classes of the population were greatly touched by 
the attitude of the Lord Mayor and the other members of the cor- 
poration towards them. And they showed it, and I don't believe 
there could have been a better example of that than the way that the 
whole of Cork rallied around the Lord Mayor at the time of his 
death. Everyone in Cork was of the same mind. There was a spe- 
cial meeting of the corporation called on the day of his death, and 
every Unionist member spoke; and I may as well tell you that at 
that meeting, at which I was present, one of the bitterest anti-Irish 
and pro-Unionist people in the corporation actually cried when he 
was seconding the vote of sympathy to Mrs. MacCurtain and the 
condemnation of the cruel action. At that time, of course, there was 
no question as to who had committed the murder. There was a gen- 
eral outburst of feeling on the part of the whole city. And I could 
read you many examples of the nice things that were said about him 
by the Unionists. Some of us had the idea that it was because of 
the rapidity with which he was winning over the hearts of the Union- 
ists and impressing upon them the fact that they were all Irishmen 
together and should work for Ireland's good, and the fact that he 
was such a thoroughly practical business man, — you see, I am stress- 
ing that because we are called and have been called for years im- 



348 

practical idealists; we have lovely theories, but we have no practical 
conception of business matters at all; that we have no idea of how 
to run a state or run a city, and that we are always up in the moon. 
But Lord Mayor MacCurtain showed that he had such a practical 
grasp of business matters that he opened the eyes of a great many 
people who had never come into personal contact with Irish Re- 
publican people before. And he had practically within a month 
converted the whole corporation into Republicans. Even the resolu- 
tion of the corporation pledging allegiance to Dail Eireann got prac- 
tically no opposition. 

One of the things the corporation had to do was to send up the 
name of someone for sheriff to the High Commissioner. The cor- 
poration was considering whether they should send up the name of a 
man who had been in prison for one and a half years on a false 
charge. They had never succeeded in getting a jury to convict him. 
The most they could do was to get a jury that would disagree, — 
they got enough Unionists on the jury for that. Of course he did 
not defend himself. You understand that we Republicans do not 
defend ourselves in the English courts. We do not recognize their 
courts. This matter of the appointment of McMurray, who was in 
prison on a false charge, was a question of sending his name up to 
the Lord Lieutenant as high sheriff. That would, of course, have 
been a kind of act of contempt towards them. We would send up 
as the man who would control the prisons the man whom they were 
keeping in prison falsely. But we decided that that would be an 
act below us. The Republican members of the corporation decided 
that they would not even in contempt of England and English law 
send up the name of a man who, if he was elected, would have to 
take the oath of allegiance to the English Government, and so they 
did not send up any name. One of the members of the corporation 
suggested that they should not let go by default the privilege that 
they had not long ago gained, the privilege of nominating the man 
for high sheriff. But they ignored that member and refused to make 
any appointment. Sir John Scott, who was the Unionist who pro- 
posed that they should send up three names, did not even get among 
the Unionists of the group a second to his motion. 

Q. Miss MacSwiney, you started to say something about the be- 
lief that Mayor MacCurtain's efficiency and his popularity and his 
ability to win over the Unionists of the opposition was a significant 
reason for his death? 

Chairman Howe: Can you begin right there, so that we can get 
through the principal facts right down to the inquest, please? 



349 

MURDERED BY MIDNIGHT RAIDERS IN PRESENCE 

OF WIFE 

A. That, of course, couldn't be proved, but it is very reasonable 
to suppose. But he, of course, had been on the run, although he had 
been sleeping at home, — a great deal more than some of the others 
like my brother. He was there, I think, because he had a great deal 
of business to attend to, and he had a small family, and his wife was 
not well. He happened to be home on the night of the nineteenth of 
March, 1920. A knock came at the door. It was between one and 
a quarter-past, or one and half-past, anyway, in the morning. As 
usual, they came to the conclusion that it was the military or the 
police, and he wanted to go down, but his wife would not let him. 
She put her head out of the window and asked, "Who is there?" 
and the answer came back, "Come down quick." The plan is, of 
course, not to let the men go down and open the door, for they 
would be shot on the spot; so usually the women go down and open 
the door to let the man escape if possible. Before she got down- 
stairs, the door was smashed in. About six men smashed their way 
in, and two of them gripped her and pushed her up against the wall, 
and one of them said, "Hold that woman!" And the others rushed 
upstairs. 

I want you to know this thing: they went immediately to Mr. Mac- 
Curtain's room. There was no hesitation at all. And that is re- 
markable in a house like MacCurtain's, where the steps are very 
peculiarly placed. You would have to know the house very well to 
know where you were going. You had to enter through the porch. 
The stairs were on a side passage to the left. There was a very 
funny twist in them towards the top, and you could not possibly find 
your way about the house unless you knew it well. They made no 
hesitation. They went straight to his room and called, "Come out, 
Curtain." Mrs. MacCurtain, who was downstairs, heard the baby 
cry and she begged to go upstairs and bring the baby down. They 
would not let her. She pleaded with them. She said they had 
mothers and babies themselves; and they would not let her go. 
Then the shots rang out, as soon as they had yelled out, "Come out, 
Curtain." He came to the door and they shot him. He was killed 
by three revolver shots. The baby then ceased to cry, — perhaps it 
was taken by its aunt; and the poor mother thought that the baby 
was shot too. She was in a fainting condition. Meanwhile the six 
men came downstairs and went out. The sister upstairs had run to 
the rescue of the Lord Mayor, only to find out that he was bleeding 



350 

and in a dying condition. Mrs. MacCurtain ran out of the house 
crying, "For God's sake, a priest and a doctor!" 

Q. Chairman Howe: One minute: you are testifying as to facts 
that you heard brought out at the inquest? 

A. No, these are the facts that I heard at the house when I 
visited them. 

Q. Were these facts brought out at the inquest? 

A. Yes, all these facts were brought out at the inquest. If I am 
going too much into detail, tell me. 

The main thing brought out at the inquest is that Lord Mayor 
MacCurtain was murdered at quarter past one; that there were shots 
fired from outside the house when- the brother put his head out and 
called for help; that there is a police barracks within fifty yards 
from the house; that nobody in those barracks could possibly help 
from hearing those shots, but not a policeman appeared from those 
barracks until eight o'clock in the morning. 

STREETS APPROACHING HOUSE HELD UP BY 
ARMED PATROLS 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Was it brought out at the inquest that 
there had been a zone around the house? 

A. Yes, there were four roads leading to that particular street. 
Those roads were held by parties of armed men. One of those roads 
was held by men who were in police uniform. Two men testified 
that they wanted to get to their homes through those streets, but that 
they were not allowed by policemen in uniform to proceed. All the 
other men were not in uniform. All the men who entered Mr. Mac- 
Curtain's house that night had their faces blackened. They were 
not in uniform. 

Q. When was this zone established? 

A. This zone was established about a quarter past one. 

Q. Was that established at the inquest? 

A. Yes, by railroad men who were going home and watchmen 
who were leaving their homes. It was established that this zone was 
established, that a half-dozen men were stopped and put with their 
backs to the wall until the murder was completed, and then they 
were told to stay where they were for half an hour of they would be 
shot. 

POLICE RECORDS JUGGLED 

Q. Is it not also true that it was brought out at the inquest that 
the records of the goings and comings of police had not been kept 
for a week or two before and after the shooting? 



351 

A. Yes, on the night of the tenth of March there had been shots 
fired at a policeman. We had a night of terror in the city. The 
police shot people, shot people of the city. They went looking for 
men on the run, who would have been shot like Mr. MacCurtain if 
they had been found. They ran amuck, as we say. And then they 
went back to their barracks. Of course, the rules of the barracks 
are that every time that ammunition is taken or a gun is taken off 
the racks in the barracks, it must be put down in the books. No 
account whatever was put down for the taking of guns and ammu- 
nition on the tenth of March. It was acknowledged that the police 
did go out that night and did shootings, and it is acknowledged that 
no record whatever was kept. 

Q. This was the week before the shooting of the Lord Mayor? 

A. Yes, it was the tenth, a week before. The night of the tenth 
of March the police went amuck through the streets looking for 
Volunteers to shoot, and breaking windows and shooting several 
civilians. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: That was after an attempt to shoot 
a policeman. Was any of them killed? 

A. No, one was wounded, but no one killed. 

Q. Was the shooting of the Lord Mayor a reprisal for the shoot- 
ing of that policeman? 

A. I think the police were anxious to make it appear so, but of 
course they never acknowledged that it was done by them; they tried 
to pretend that it was not done by the police, but the evidence was 
irrefutable. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Miss MacSwiney, you were at the 
inquest? 

A. Yes. 

LORD MAYOR'S HOUSEHOLD ABSOLUTELY 
UNARMED 

Q. Senator Norris: This idea has come to me, not only in the 
case of the murder of Lord Mayor MacCurtain, but in other cases 
where Black-and-Tans had broken into houses in the night. Why 
is it that these people whom they come to kill do not defend them- 
selves? They certainly would have a good opportunity to shoot 
people coming into their homes. For instance, why did not the Lord 
Mayor, coming out of his room as he did, shoot them? 

A. Because they do not have any arms in the house. 

Q. Why do not they have? The Lord Mayor could have, could 
he not? 



352 

A. I suppose that he could. But a married man like that who 
ventures to sleep at home with his family would not have arms. If 
he slept at home with his family he would take the risk of escaping 
arrest that night. If they found a revolver in the house, of course 
he would be imprisoned for two years. You are simply placing 
yourself in their hands if you are found with a revolver, because 
that is a charge that they punish with two years' imprisonment at 
least. 1 

Q. No, but the Lord Mayor knew he was going to be killed, and 
the idea occurs to me that he might have had a revolver there and 
sold his life as clearly as possible. He might have killed three or 
four of those people before they got him. 

A. No, but at that time they had not begun to shoot down un- 
armed men. It was the first time. To be exact, the shooting of two 
unarmed men the week before on the tenth of March was the first 
event of that kind. From that time on no man ventured to sleep in 
his house without arms, as I have told you that when my brother did 
sleep at home with his guard, both were armed, and on the two occa- 
sions when we had an alarm at the door, they were prepared to sell 
their lives dearly. But that was after the murder of Lord Mayor 
MacCurtain. 

IRISH PURSUE PACIFIC POLICY UNTIL ENGLISH 
AGGRESSION COMPELS RESISTANCE 

Q. Senator Walsh: Excuse me a moment. You said at the time 
of Lord Mayor MacCurtain's death you had reached the stage of 
armed warfare. Do you mean that up to that time the campaign 
was one of passive resistance and not of open warfare? 

A. No, we do not make the claim of passive resistance after 1916. 
Up to 1916 it was passive resistance. After that time it was not. 
What I mean is that while the Volunteers carried arms and were 
compelled to defend themselves against open force, we had not 
reached the stage where the British Government was ordering shoot- 
ings and raids and the killing of unarmed men at sight. Therefore, 
the men staying at home did not carry arms. 

Q. My impression of the Irish situation is that you had an open 
revolution in 1916, and then you later proceeded to hold elections 
and get an evidence of the unmistakable desire of the people of Ire- 
land to have applied to them the principle of self-determination; and 



1 Under martial law regulations recently imposed upon the principal 
counties of southern Ireland, the death penalty is inflicted on those found 
with firearms or ammunition in their possession. 



353 

the evidence of the election proved that you wanted that principle 
applied to you as well as to any other country. And that you then 
proceeded to do all of the things necessary to set up a republican 
form of government without bloodshed, without any war, without 
murders, and without any policy of destruction of human life; and 
that that policy was rigidly carried out until such time as the Eng- 
lish Government began to send soldiers and Black-and-Tans into 
Ireland and began to interfere with the functioning of that govern- 
ment which you had previously established. Is my idea right or 
wrong? 

A. It is absolutely right, Senator, with our true policy; if you 
take it that we have never said that we would have nothing but pas- 
sive resistance. Up to the time that the campaign of the enemy be- 
gan, and became so hot against us, there never was any offensive, 
never any shooting, on our part. You are quite right that we wanted 
to get our government going. If our courts had been allowed to 
meet in peace, and we had been allowed to carry on the municipal 
government of the country, we would have been quite willing to do 
that and build our country up, and then have turned our attention 
to clearing the enemy out, peaceably if possible. We would always 
have done it pacifically if possible. 

Q. Up to that time you had what we in this country call a blood- 
less revolution. You had by the ballot box and by talk and discus- 
sion brought about the revolution about as effectively as if there had 
been bloodshed. You had established a form of government, and 
had done everything you could to drive off the old government with- 
out the shedding of blood. So that so far there was no force and 
no armed activity. Is that true? 

A. Now, I want to be exact. As I told you yesterday about the 
little incident of the submarine and the torpedo boat destroyer — 

Q. But did any Irish Volunteers or anybody else murder any 
policemen or anybody else up to the time of the murder of Mayor 
MacCurtain? 

A. Oh, we destroyed police barracks and things like that. 

Q. When? 

A. In 1916. 

Q. I am asking you if there came a time when you had without 
bloodshed and without force and arms established a functioning 
government, and whether that was by peaceful methods. 

A. From the beginning of 1916 to 1919 the Irish Republican 
Army was in existence and strengthening itself wherever it could. 

Q. What was it doing? 



354 

A. Drilling itself, largely in secret. Gathering arms whenever it 
could. 

Q. Anticipating what? 

A. Anticipating exactly what happened: that as soon as we 
showed that we could govern our country without them, the English 
would take very good care that we did not. But we never have been 
guilty of an act of aggression and never would have been if Eng- 
land had cleared out and let us alone. We do not want war if we 
can possibly get out of it. 

Q. What your American friends want to know, my opinion is, 
at least those who have extreme pacifist views, is how long you were 
patient, how long you were resisting the temptation to meet murder 
with murder and go into open warfare. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: Wait just a moment. 

Senator Walsh: Just a moment, please. Some of the best articles 
that have been written in America on the Irish question, and some 
of the thiijgs that interested the American people most, were about 
the new order that had been brought about as to the things accom- 
plished by a bloodless revolution and passive resistance. Now, if 
it was not passive resistance, if there was warfare and bloodshed, 
it is a different thing. Do you get my idea? 

A. Yes. There was no warfare at all until after 1916, when they 
began to interfere with our government. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: When did the open warfare begin, 
after the Easter revolution of 1916? 

A. Well, you see for a long time our men were in prison. There 
was a period of inactivity. 

Q. What provoked it again? What started it up? 

A. The absolute determination of England to prevent us doing 
anything. There was no more open warfare until after 1918. After 
that we started our government functioning. For twelve months I 
do not think she realized that we were building up an extraordi- 
narily stable government in the country, in spite of the fact that she 
had an army of occupation there. 

Q. That was the same election that elected Lloyd George in 
England? And for awhile after that there was comparative peace 
and quiet? 

A. Yes, as long as we were let alone to build up our own gov- 
ernment there was peace and quiet. 

Q. What overt act started things up? 

A. The extraordinary activity of the English secret service, 
when they started to get information about our people and running 
them down and gathering information about our courts. I cannot 



355 

say the exact date. I want to be scrupulously exact, and do not 
want to make a mistake. With us the whole question was what was 
best for the movement. We had no scruples, and I would not in- 
fluence my pacifist friends for a moment. We had no scruples 
against open warfare if it was necessary to get independence for 
Ireland. But we did not want war. We put it off as long as pos- 
sible. It may have been 1919 before the warfare began. I am in- 
clined to think it was before the burning of police barracks. But if 
you understood how fast we are living in Ireland, you would realize 
that during the last four years we have lived through a generation. 
Before a Commission like this I want to be very exact on details, 
and I cannot tell you the exact date on which we began to burn 
police barracks. 

Commissioner Addams: I did not mean the exact date. I think 
you have answered what I want. 

The Witness: I would like to stress that we have been living 
through a whole generation recently, — what would have been a 
whole remarkable epoch in an ordinary nation's life; that we have 
forgotten one thing when the other comes on. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: May I ask you one statement, some- 
thing that has been made to me many times by friends. I have 
friends who have said (of course we are not pacifists in the extreme 
sense, but the history of the recent war shows that going to war is 
the last thing that you want to do), — some of them say, "The Irish 
were making good progress. They had a government and courts 
functioning. They had put the British in an extremely difficult posi- 
tion in the eyes of the world." They say, "We are not philosophical 
pacifists, but we think they made a blunder for their own cause when 
they gave Lloyd George a chance to say to the world that these hor- 
rible things were being done, not only when police barracks were 
burned, because that was only the loss of property, but police were 
shot and law and order broken." In other words — we are talking 
in a family way here — I think you will find not only the philosophi- 
cal argument but the practical argument that you had made such 
enormous strides, — you had not won everything but you had made 
enormous strides; that it was a mistake to give Lloyd George a 
chance to say there was open aggression which he had to suppress, 
and which the Irish brought about. What I want is to get actual 
instances where there was actual aggression by the British before 
Irish violence began. 

A. Yes, that is what I am trying to bring out. Before any trouble 
started — 



356 

SPECIFIC ACTS OF ENGLISH AGGRESSION PRO- 
VOKING IRISH TO FORCIBLE RESISTANCE 

Commissioner Thomas: Yes, I know that argument, but I am 
trying to get you to state specific instances. 

The Witness: Well, first of all there was the arrest of the Sinn 
Fein members. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Of Parliament? 

A. Yes, of Parliament. They put all the Sinn Fein members in 
jail, but that did not matter, because the remainder were Republi- 
cans, and they were able to carry on. But in one case — take the 
Galway County Council — they arrested all the Sinn Feiners, and with 
the rest they could do what they liked, and called it the Galway 
County Council. And again, they hampered the courts. They know 
the courts gave a greater impression in England than anything else. 
You know the daily papers gave case after case where before you 
had the police courts, you now have the Sinn Fein courts giving 
judgments that the people eagerly accept. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Did they begin to obliterate these 
courts before the violence began? 

A. They did it not openly at first, but secretly. 

Q. Senator Norris: It is important to inquire about the time. 
Did the British Government begin its methods of obstruction by ar- 
rest or otherwise of the Sinn Fein leaders before there was anything 
done by the Irish against British officials? 

A. Oh, yes. I think I can say that it was, but I cannot give you 
exact dates. I think I must have said something about 1918, when 
it was in 1919. I honestly tell you, I would have to go to the papers 
and look it up. We are living at a great rale, and I would have to 
ask your consideration on that point of view. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Miss MacSwiney, I think perhaps, — ■ 
if the Chairman and the others think this is a correct procedure, — 
it seems to me that this is so important that we should know the 
facts accurately. I am wondering if you would collaborate with 
Mr. Malone and other counsel so that there could be given to the 
Commission an exact statement of the course of events, of acts of 
violence by the British government before there was trouble. 

A. Yes, I would like to do that. But you see, if I make one mis- 
statement I would be put down in English papers as telling lies. 

Commissioner Thomas: Yes, I quite appreciate that. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You were enumerating the things, when you 
were interrupted, the things that you said provoked the Irish people 
to give up in part or surrender in part their policy of passive re- 



357 

sistance. And you named the arrest of the leaders and the breaking 
up of the courts. Now, what other things? 

A. The system of espionage which made it impossible for our 
civic leaders to carry out any work for the good of the country with- 
out being spied on by the English police, and being arrested or shot 
in consequence. The system of spying that was carried on, and the 
fact that it was impossible for our people to carry on the govern- 
ment for the good of the country, brought the first trouble about. 
All that I would like to look up, — dates and facts, and give them in 
writing to the Commission. 

Commissioner Addams: That would be very kind of you, Miss 
MacSwiney. 

Commissioner Thomas: Thank you very much. 

The Witness: I would be glad to do that. 1 

Q. Senator Norris: I hope in doing that you will not think that 
the American people consider that the Irish people have to wait 
until they are obliterated and put in prison before they are justified 
in putting up a resistance and fighting. Personally I am called a 
great pacifist, and I have suffered a great deal of abuse on the sub- 
ject. I asked you the question about Lord Mayor MacCurtain. It 
seems to me that if I had been him, I would have shot those men. 
I would have tried to see how many of the other fellows I could 
have laid out first, before they got me. 

A. Perhaps that is the best answer \ can give to your question : 
up to the time that Lord Mayor MacCurtain was shot, there had 
been none of our unarmed leaders shot in their homes. 

Q. But there was a policeman shot nine days before? 

A. Yes, but he was not unarmed. You understand, please, Miss 
Addams, that all the policemen are fully armed. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: They were not all shot by Republican sym- 
pathizers, either. 

The Witness: No, indeed they were not. 

Senator Norris: It happens occasionally in America that a police- 
man is shot here. 

The Witness: Well, you see, you have criminals in America. 
But there are no criminals in Ireland who would be shooting police- 
men. I dare say we would have our share of them if we had not 
been so heart and soul devoted to the salvation of our country that 
we had no time. And I may as well tell you that the petty criminals 



1 The facts in question are contained in a memorandum, The Develop- 
ment of the English Military Campaign Against the Irish People, sub- 
mitted to the Commission pursuant to this request, and incorporated in 
the evidence as Exhibit I. See Index. 



358 

we had, — the drunks and disorderlies and petty larcenies, they had 
all gone into the army,— all the rascals went into the English army 
to fight the war. 

May I just take that suggestion you made, Senator Norris, and 
say this about it. There is no question whatever that our people had 
never expected to be shot in their beds like that before the murder 
of Lord Mayor MacCurtain, and therefore they did not carry their 
arms to bed with them. From the time of the murder of Lord Mayor 
MacCurtain, no Volunteer went to bed unarmed, but was well pre- 
pared for what might happen. 

Q. Senator Walsh: But what we want to know is this: how long 
and to what extent the Irish people resisted the attempts of the 
British Government to provoke them into answering back by force 
of arms. 

A. Yes, but you will let me get exact facts and dates. 

Senator Walsh : We all appreciate the provocation, and the pa- 
tience of the Irish people in meeting that provocation. But we want 
to know how long the Irish people held back. 

NO FACTIONAL DIVISION AMONG REPUBLICAN 

LEADERS 

Commissioner Thomas: It has been repeatedly charged, — to give 
you one specific instance, the editorial in the New York Times this 
morning, — it has been often charged that within the leaders of the 
Republican Army there have been two minds on the right and ex- 
pediency of certain of these shootings. Have you any first-hand evi- 
dence, or can you put us in the way of any evidence, on this point? 

A. I cannot. May I ask you a question in return, Mr. Thomas? 
Have you ever had a cabinet that did not have divisions on ques- 
tions of policy? 

Commissioner Thomas: I would reply that it is often a pity that 
there is so little division in opinion among members of cabinets in 
America. 

The Witness: Then you agree that a certain division of opinion 
is wise? 

Commissioner Thomas: Yes. 

The Witness: I think that a division of opinion in the Republi- 
can cabinet is sometimes quite possible. The men in our cabinet are 
all men of strong character. You never find men of strong charac- 
ter who are always of the same mind. 

Commissioner Thomas: I think that is a hopeful symptom. 

The Witness: It is so in our case. 



359 

Mr. D. F. Malone: But you see, Miss MacSwiney, the New York 
Times is only of one mind, and thinks that we will all be stupid 
enough to be of the same mind. 

The Witness: That sounds like Lloyd George. Every cabinet in 
which there are strong men of character will discuss things openly 
and frankly, and then come to a decision which holds. Lloyd George 
has tried to impress your people with the fact that we are all at 
sixes and sevens. I begged you yesterday not to believe Lloyd 
George when he says that the members of the Irish Republic are 
continuously fighting among themselves. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: What we want to know is how unani- 
mous the opinion of the cabinet is in matters like the killing of these 
fourteen policemen. 

A. I am not in the cabinet, and the cabinet keeps its mind to 
itself. But they had discussed that question and had come to a de- 
cision. 

Q. But we meant, there was no great disagreement in the cabinet? 

A. There may have been one or two timid minds, — I do not 
know. But the majority certainly favored that policy. 

WITNESSES AT INQUEST PROVE COMPLICITY OF 
POLICE IN MURDER OF MACCURTAIN 

Chairman Howe: Now, we will go back to the inquest. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Will you discuss what the chief witnesses 
said at the inquest? 

Chairman Howe: We would like to get through in eight or ten 
minutes if we could. 

The Witness: I think the knowledge that the police were re- 
sponsible for the murder of Lord Mayor MacCurtain was pretty 
generally known among Republicans on the morning of his death, 
but it had not got to be generally accepted as the opinion of the 
whole city until the inquest began. The inquest took a very long 
time. The principal witnesses were those who testified to the hold- 
ing up of civilians from entering the zone that was formed by the 
police around the Lord Mayor's house. A lamplighter testified to 
the fact that he was held up on a road which leads from King Street 
to the Hill road, — that is the road on which we live. That particular 
band was supposed to be waiting for my brother. They did not 
know that he was home that night, and they were not searching the 
house. But it was thought that as soon as Mrs. MacCurtain knew 
that her husband was murdered, she would send instantly for my 
brother, and perhaps one or two others, and they would have the 



360 

opportunity of shooting them too. However, this lamplighter was 
stopped on York Hill and they sent him back another road. An- 
other man named Desmond, a lamplighter also, had parted from the 
first lamplighter named Thompson. He had a brother who was also 
a lamplighter, and their general plan was to wait for each other on 
the corner of King Street (since then, I can tell you, called Mac- 
Curtain Street), so that they could go home together to the south 
side of the city. He got there first that night, and stood on the porch 
of the Coliseum Theater, exactly opposite the police barracks. He 
had been standing there for a quarter of an hour when he saw this 
band of armed men coming down York Hill, — the foot of York 
Hill, to be precise, eight or ten yards from the door of the King 
Street police barracks. They came down York Hill in single file. 
They walked very quietly. They must have had rubber soles on their 
shoes. Each man was dressed as the murderers were dressed, with 
rain coats mostly, some dark and some drab. He could not say what 
they had on their heads. But they came down the hill in single file. 
They went up the steps of the police barracks. The carried re- 
volvers down by their sides. They walked with the steps of sol- 
diers, for policemen in Ireland are always drilled like soldiers. 
They tapped lightly on the door of the police barracks, and the door 
was opened instantly, and they went inside immediately. No light 
was shown. 

He thought that something was up, and he went home without 
waiting for his brother, as fast as he could. He came forward very 
bravely and gave evidence at the inquest. And an attempt was made 
on his life during the inquest, but did not succeed. That was about 
twenty minutes to two. 

Another man, a postman, saw that same body of men file down 
from the police barracks about one o'clock. • 

Q. Mr. Malone: What time was Mayor MacCurtain killed? 

A. About quarter-past or half-past one; I cannot say exactly. 

Q. So that a file of men were seen to leave the police barracks 
about a quarter of an hour previously? 

A. Yes. But they did not come back all together at the same 
time. With the number who held up the roads and so forth, there 
must have been a large number of men engaged. 

Q. Was there evidence that roads were held up? 

A. Yes. 

Q. How many roads? 

A. On one road six men were held up and stood with their backs 
to the wall. And on another road another man was stood up by 
these same men with long coats and soft, dark hats. And the third 



361 

road was held up by policemen in uniform. They prevented men 
from passing Lord Mayor MacCurtain's house. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What reason did they give for holding up 
these men ? 

A. They asked them what business they had on the streets then. 

Q. Was this before or after the mayor was murdered? 

A. While he was being murdered. One man who was held up 
by the policemen in uniform was prevented from passing Lord 
Mayor MacCurtain's house, and was sent down a road which led out 
by a church beyond Lord Mayor MacCurtain's house. He looked 
back, and the police shouted, "Go on and keep your eyes before 
you." The first time he looked back he saw four policemen stand- 
ing at Lord Mayor MacCurtain's house. His house was only a few 
doors beyond, and just as he got there he heard three shots ring out. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Was all this evidence at the inquest? 

A. Yes, every bit of it was sworn evidence at the inquest. I 
don't know whether you think it relevant, but at half-past two that 
morning officers and soldiers came to raid the Lord Mayor's house. 
There were policemen outside. But this night the policemen refused 
to enter the house. The rule was that the policemen searched the 
house while the military remained on guard. This night the officers 
searched the house and saw the dead man lying there and the women 
weeping. A question was asked in the House of Commons the day 
after the murder. Mr. Ian MacPherson, who was Chief Secretary at 
that time, was asked why they so cruelly sent a military party to 
search a house where a man was lying dead. And the answer Mr. 
MacPherson gave was that the military party had been sent to Mayor 
MacCurtain's house to find out clews to the murder. General Strick- 
land, the military commander who had sent that military party, said 
the next day that when the officers had come to the house, they had 
no idea of the murder, and he did not know of it until the officers 
got back and reported. 

Q. Senator Walsh: So that the claim of the Irish Republic sym- 
pathizers is that the police sent this military party to show that they 
had no knowledge of the murder? 

A. Well, my theory is 

Q. Is that the general opinion? 

A. My personal opinion is that the military did not know it. 

Q. But the police? 

A. The police and the military at that time were separate bodies. 
They are together now, but they were not then. 

Q. Senator Norris: Your theory is that both the police and the 
military were after him the same night? 



362 

A. • Yes, and acted independently. 

Q. And that the going of the military in there afterwards was 
not for the purpose of deceiving the population as to who committed 
the murder? 

A. No, I do not believe it was. The police, who got the order 
from the military at five o'clock that afternoon to have three police- 
men ready to conduct the party on the raid, hoped to use it as a 
cover. But I do not really think that the military knew what was 
going on that night. 

Q. Who ordered his killing that night? 

A. 0, I suppose the orders came from Dublin Castle. 

Q. Why did they not use the military rather than the police? 

A. 0, the military were really decent up to that time. They 
were rather decent, and were not consciously out for murder up to 
that time. Now they are quite different. The military believed that 
they were there quite largely because Ireland was their country. 
Some of them think it still. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Did that practically conclude the testi- 
mony offered at the inquest about the connection of the police with 
the murder? 

A. No, there was another significant thing. A doctor who lives 
on the Hill saw a body of armed men stop at the corner, and three 
or four of them go further up the hill. A nurse who lives farther 
up that way saw them enter District Inspector Swanzy's house. 

Q. Saw who going in? 

A. The men. 

Chairman Howe: Mr. Malone, this detailed evidence is interest- 
ing, but it is something that we will never pass upon. Can we not 
get at the other facts? 

Mr. D. F. Malone: Senator Norris wanted to hear about this data. 

VERDICT INDICTS BRITISH GOVERNMENT AND 
POLICE FOR MURDER 

Q. What was the verdict, Miss MacSwiney? 

Senator Walsh: Of course we want details as to just why he was 
murdered. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: I want to ask you first if the coroner who 
presided at the inquest was an officer of the British Government? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Is he appointed by the British Government? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Was there a jury? 



363 

A. Yes, the jury was impaneled by the police. 

Q. And this is the verdict of the jury? 

A. Yes, of course. The police gave evidence at the inquest, and 
tried to prove by their books that they were all in their beds. But 
the evidence proved that the books were unreliable. The books at 
the time were not properly kept. They were obliged to admit that 
under oath. 

Q. What was the verdict? 

A. The verdict is this: 

"We find that the late Alderman Thomas MacCurtain, Lord Mayor 
of Cork, died from shock and hemorrhage caused by bullet wounds; 
that he was wilfully murdered under circumstances of the most cal- 
lous brutality; that the murder was organized and carried out by 
the Royal Irish Constabulary, officially directed by the British Gov- 
ernment; and we return a verdict of wilful murder against David 
Lloyd George, prime minister of England; Lord French, lord lieu- 
tenant of Ireland; Ian MacPherson, late chief secretary for Ireland; 
Acting Inspector General Smith of the Royal Irish Constabulary; 
Divisional Inspector Clayton of the Royal Irish Constabulary; Dis- 
trict Inspector Swanzy, and some unknown members of the Royal 
Irish Constabulary. We strongly condemn the system now in vogue 
of carrying out raids at unseasonable hours. We tender to Mrs. 
MacCurtain and her family our sympathy in their bereavement. 
This sympathy we extend to the city of Cork in the loss they have 
sustained of one so capable of carrying out their city administra- 
tion." 

Q. Senator Norris: How many were on the jury? 

A. Fourteen. 

Q. The coroner is a crown officer? 

A. Yes. 

POLICE IMPANEL JURY WHICH CONDEMNS THEM 

Q. Who selected the men who sat on the jury? 

A. The police always impanel the jury. There are certain 
names, the names of the list of burgesses, you see, and they take 
these names at haphazard. Coroners' juries are not like criminal 
juries. People do not object to going and serving. 

Q. Who puts these names on the jury? 

A. The coroner directs the police officer to summon the jury. 
The police, I believe, summon sixteen or eighteen. The coroner's 
jury is not like an ordinary jury. You may have twelve men, or 
you may have more. 



364 

Q. The police were charged with the crime. Then why did they 
select the jury? 

A. There was no one else to select the jury at this time. When 
the first men were summoned, only seven of them showed up. Then 
the coroner called upon several citizens who offered themselves as 
willing to act. One or two were members of the corporation, and 
one of them suggested that as a member of the corporation he might 
not be considered eligible. The coroner at first said, "I don't see 
what difference that would make." And finally he thought better 
not to ask them to serve. The solicitor for the King asked what 
each man's occupation was, because, he said, that on account of the 
evidence he was about to submit, no policeman could sit on that 
jury. So on that ground several of them withdrew. 

Q. Senator Walsh: I would like to know if the British Crown 
was represented at that inquest? 

A. yes. 

Q. And that all the formalities had been complied with that had 
been complied with in the days of peace? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And that they, by the presence of their authorities, recognized 
it as an official procedure? 

A. 0, yes, it was an absolutely official court in that case. 

CROWN COUNSEL DROPS DEFENSE OF POLICE 

I would like to say, in addition, that at first they had only the 
Crown solicitor to represent them; they later brought in the most 
eminent K. C. — King's Counsel — in the country to represent them. 
I would like to say of that man, Mr. Wiley, a very eminent man : it 
was easy for us to see that all through the inquest he was acting 
honorably, and that he got a complete shock when the evidence 
showed so conclusively that the police had committed this murder. 
Before the evidence was half-way through, he withdrew on the plea 
of business elsewhere. He had to go somewhere else. Before he 
went away he said that, perhaps, from his position he might not be 
believed, but that he spoke from his heart in sympathizing with Mrs. 
MacCurtain and the family. And it was quite easy to see that he 
spoke from his heart. A short time after that Mr. Wiley, who was 
a very young man, and who could have risen very high in his pro- 
fession, resigned from his position and cut off all connection with 
his party, the Unionist Party, which could have helped him to reach 
as high a position as Sir Edward Carson. 



365 

POLICE BULLETS AND BUTTON FOUND 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Was there any evidence that the bullets 
found in the body of Lord Mayor MacCurtain were police bullets? 

A. Yes, there was. But I would not like to make a point of it, 
because their counsel said that many police revolvers and bullets 
had been captured by Sinn Feiners. And that was true. So al- 
though there were police bullets found there, that would not be abso- 
lute identification because the Sinn Feiners have about as many 
police revolvers as the police themselves. But there was a police 
button found. 

Q. Where? 

A. At the door, where Mrs. MacSwiney was. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Had there been a struggle there? 

A. I don't think so. He did not stress that as a matter of very 
great importance. But the button was found. I am perfectly honest 
in telling you that I would not myself consider the fact that the 
bullets found were police bullets was conclusive evidence, because 
we have captured a good many of their rifles and revolvers, and we 
are capturing more. 

LORD FRENCH IGNORES JURY SUMMONS TO 
PRODUCE EVIDENCE 

Q. But there was no reason why Lord Mayor MacCurtain would 
be killed by Republicans? 

A. I would like to say that Lord French gave an interview to a 
newspaper man, I think it was the Dublin Express; and in that in- 
terview he said that there was conclusive evidence that Lord Mayor 
MacCurtain had been murdered by extremists in the Sinn Fein ranks, 
who were not satisfied with Lord Mayor MacCurtain because he was 
a moderate man. The jury heard of that and sent a summons to 
Sir John Taylor, under secretary of Dublin Castle, requesting Lord 
French to bring in this evidence. They sent that summons to Dublin 
Castle, and it was never answered — for, of course, Lord French did 
not have such evidence, and he knew he could not manufacture 
enough evidence to bolster up his statement in that way. 

Chairman Howe: Are there any other questions? 

Mr. D. F. Malone: No other questions. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



366 
TESTIMONY OF P. J. GUILFOIL 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: What is your full name, Mr. Guilfoil? 

A. P. J. Guilfoil. 

Q. Are you an American citizen? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where do you reside? 

A. In Pittsburgh. 

Q. What is the date of your last visit to Ireland? 

A. I landed on the twenty-fifth of May last. 

Q. Whom did you visit there? 

A. Just relatives. 

Q. Where did you live there? 

A. With my sister-in-law in Feakle in County Clare. She is 
a dressmaker and has a little cottage there. I was there for five 
months. 

Q. Was your family there? 

A. Yes, sir; my wife and two children. 

Q. How old are the children? 

A. One nine, the other seven. 

Q. And you were living in the house of your sister? 

A. Yes. 

Q. How long? 

A. From the twenty-fifth of May to the fifteenth of October. 
I wasn't there all of the time, for I was in Cork for a few days 
before I sailed. 

HOME BURNED BECAUSE POLICEMEN SHOT BY 
PARTIES UNKNOWN 

Q. I understand that the home in which you were living was 
burned. 

A. Right. 

Q. Were you there at the time? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Just relate briefly for the commission the circumstances of 
that burning. What date was that? 

A. On the morning of October seventh. The postoffice is about 
a quarter of a mile out from this little town, and there were six 
of the Royal Irish Constabulary went out to this post office, and 
two of them got shot just as they reached the postoffice at ten- 
thirty in the morning. 

Q. The Commission: Did you see this or just hear about it? 



367 

A. I saw the whole thing. I went out there about eleven or 
eleven-thirty to send a wire to Thomas Cook & Sons of Dublin 
about my return to the States. I knew about the happening be- 
fore I left the town to go out. there, and being an American citi- 
zen and having my passport there, and being of good courage, 
I went out there after this happened. 

Q. The Commission: After what happened? 

A. After the two policemen were shot. 

Q. But you saw them shot? 

A. No, I saw them lying there. I was in the town then. When 
I got there there was a young priest, Father O'Reilly, the only 
priest in the parish, with the dead men. I viewed the remains 
by the roadside. Word had been sent to the military at Ennis, a 
town about eighteen miles from there. I questioned the priest 
about the matter, and he said that all he knew about it was that 
he was called there about a half hour before by a young girl 
who told him there were two men at the postoffice in a dying con- 
dition. The town physician had been there also, Dr. O'Halloran, 
but he had left before I arrived. I asked the priest if he did not 
run great danger of reprisals for remaining there. But he said, 
what could he do? He could not leave two dead bodies by the 
road, because there were pigs and dogs around there, and what 
could he do? I told him that if he felt that way about it, I 
would remain with him, which I did. 

About two o'clock the military arrived. There were about fifty 
of them arrived on horseback. They got the priest to provide a 
horse and cart to carry the remains into the town. 

Q. They asked the priest to do that? 

A. Yes, they did. They carried the bodies into the town, and 
some of the military remained there with the horses, and the 
others went on with the bodies. 

SOLDIERS LOOT SHOP FOR LIQUOR 

I remained there where the police were shot for about half an 
hour, and then I walked into the town. As I got into the town 
there was a man named Considine, — he has got a public house, 
which is what they call a saloon here, — and he is a carpenter by 
trade. He has three young sons who, it seems, are connected with 
the Sinn Fein movement. The military had taken possession of his 
house when I arrived. They were standing out in front with their 
bayonets fixed, standing on guard. They were plainly partaking 
of the liquids in the house. I saw that as I passed by. 



368 

I walked on up the street. About fifty or sixty yards up is 
where my sister-in-law lives, on the other side of the street. I 
had no more than entered when an officer comes in and asks, 
"Where is the civilian who just entered?" I was the only man 
living in the cottage. He wanted to know where I belonged. I 
explained who I was, showed him my passport, and told him I was 
an American tourist. He examined the passport very closely, and 
asked me if I had a pencil, and I told him no, I had a fountain 
pen. And he said he was going to put me on the black list, and 
he took the number of my passport and also my name. I said that 
was very nice. He left there, but soon returned and had six sol- 
diers come back with him. They stood on guard outside the house 
and remained there until five that evening. Some of the men 
were visibly under the influence of liquor coming on towards 
evening. 

PRIEST BRUTALLY BEATEN BY OFFICER'S ORDER 

At six-thirty that evening there was a military officer and a dis- 
trict inspector come down from Tulla, about eight miles away. 
They came down with six soldiers directly across from where I 
was living to where this priest was living, this Father O'Reilly. 
There is a stone coping about three feet high around the house, 
where there is a garden and flowers inside. The six soldiers re- 
mained outside and the officer went in and knocked at the door. 
And I stood directly across the street taking it all in. The of- 
ficer said to the priest when he answered the door, "Are you 
O'Reilly?" The priest answered, "Yes." Then he grabbed him 
by the collar and said, "Come here, you. You saw this horrible 
murder committed this morning. I will give you just five min- 
utes to confess. Who committed this horrible murder?" The priest 
said, "I am innocent. I had nothing to do with it." The officer 
said, "Attention, men." The six soldiers were standing outside 
the wall on the road. The six soldiers then went in and grabbed 
hold of the priest. Three of them had him by the head and three 
by the feet. They carried him out, the three in the lead carrying 
him out of the gate, and the three on the inside laid him down on 
the wall, face down. The two officers remained inside in the gar- 
den, and one of them said he would give him just one minute 
to confess to the horrible murder. The priest said he was inno- 
cent. One of the officers said, "Let him have it." And the sight 
of it was too horrible for me to witness, and I pulled my cap 



369 

down so I would not see the flash. Instead of that, one of the 
soldiers stepped forward and with the butt of his rifle hit him 
three horrible blows across the hips. The officer said, "Now will 
you confess to this horrible crime?" He said, "I am innocent." 
The one officer spoke and said, "We will show you we are more 
humane than you are. And now get up and get into the house." 
The priest got up and started to go into the house, and as he did 
so, the officer gave him a kick and called him some terrible names 
as he went into the house. The six soldiers went on up to the 
barracks. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: If the Commission wants to know what sort 
of terrible language these soldiers used, I suppose we can ask 
for it. 

The Commission : No, it is not necessary. 

The Witness: The officer and soldiers went up to the barracks 
and got into a big motor lorry and went away. I went across the 
street and knocked at the door of the priest's house, and he let 
me into the house, and I said, "My God, are you able to stand 
up?" And he said, "I got some awful wallops and am suffering 
some great pain, but what am I going to do?" And I said, "I 
don't suppose your feet can carry you very far, but as far as they 
can carry you, I would advise you to get out of the town. There 
will be reprisals tonight." He said, "Well, if there are reprisals 
there will be people dying, and they will need a priest." I said, 
"You would not abandon that place out there this morning, and 
I will not urge you to leave. Use your own judgment, Father 
O'Reilly." 

SOLDIERS AT BARRACKS "WILD DRUNK" 

As I went across the street — it was getting dark — and as I 
crossed the street Dr. O'Halloran, the town physician, came down, 
and I said, "Where have you been?" And he said, "Up to the 
barracks. The conditions up there are terrible. They are all 
wild drunk." He said Finnery, a sergeant up there, got a ter- 
rible cut in his wrist. He stuck his first through a plate glass 
window down at Considine's. He said, "P. J., I would advise you 
to get in and stay in off the streets tonight, for there is going 
to be trouble." I told my wife and sister-in-law about the con- 
versation. 



370 

A NIGHT OF SHOOTING, SHOUTING AND BURNING 

I had not been in three minutes when the shooting began. 
The police and the military came on down the street banging and 
shooting and throwing hand grenades in all directions. We had 
just been drinking some tea that was standing there, and I said, 
"We had better get out of the way. Here they come." I got the 
two little children, and we went upstairs. And I said to the 
children, "You had better lie next to the walls." I do not need 
to tell you how nervous those children were. They were shaking 
so that I got to shaking myself. After they got on down the 
street I went downstairs and got some souvenirs. (Takes object 
from pocket.) 

Q. Senator Walsh: What is it, for the sake of the record? 

A. A steel bullet. (Exhibits bullet to Commission.) 

After they passed down the street — this Considine place, as I 
have stated, is about fifty or sixty yards from us on the left-hand 
side of the street, a thatched house, — they took a big long candle 
and they lit it. I got up and looked out of the window as they 
passed. They just took this candle and held it under the roof 
of the house until it was all afire. They went on down the street, 
firing and shooting and shouting, until about twelve-thirty or one. 

Q. Senator Walsh: From when? 

A. From seven o'clock until about one. 

ESCAPE UNCLAD FROM BURNING HOUSE 

At one o'clock — in the other half of the cottage there is a 
family named O'Briens. They vacated at some part of the even- 
ing, the time I do not know. The military went in and searched 
the house. I understand that one of the young O'Briens was in 
sympathy with the Sinn Fein movement. The cottages are only 
divided by partitions. I was in the part of the upstairs near 
the O'Briens' cottage. My Missus told me that the soldiers were 
on the roof. I said, "They are on the roof taking observations, 
the same as ourselves," She said she smelled rags burning. I 
said it was the Considine house, because the wind was westerly and 
we were getting the smell of their burning. The Missus said it 
was not. At one or one-twenty the Missus got up and pulled the 
blinds back, and the flames were coming up to the window. She 
said, "My God, I told you the house was on fire!" I got out of 
bed and told her to get the children out, and ran down with an 
armful of clothes for the children, and threw them over the wall 



371 

that divides the field from the house, and told her to bring the 
children down there. I looked up at the cottage, and there was a 
hole just about as big as that skylight (indicating skylight in room) 
burning in the roof. I ran back and said, "We have no time to 
fool around here. Take what you have and get out of here. I 
prefer to be shot than to be burned to death." They were still 
shooting down the street. So they got out of there and went 
back in the field. The Missus got dressed and dressed the children. 

After that a bit they ceased shooting for a time. Some kind 
neighbors came to our assistance, and we said that if we had a 
ladder and some buckets we could save part of the cottage. Mr. 
Maloney, who lives across the street, got a ladder, and some of the 
men got some buckets, and we succeeded in saving the biggest part 
of the cottage. At six o'clock that morning I got hold of a car 
to convey my baggage and the children out of town, and about 
ten o'clock I left myself. Then I went to a place where my wife's 
people live. 

Q. Senator Walsh: In another town? 

A. It is in the country. 

Q. How many houses were burned? 

A. Two that night, Senator. 

Q. Anybody shot? 

A. Nobody shot, Senator. The only thing was the beating that 
that priest got that evening. 

PRIEST'S PROPERTY WANTONLY BURNED 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Did they injure his property? 

A. Well, that happened next day. They came down the next 
day and asked Mrs. MacDonald, the woman who owns the property, 
if any of the furniture belonged to her. She said no. They took 
the entire furniture, with the exception of a wardrobe that was 
too heavy to pack downstairs, and packed it out to the middle 
of the street and set fire to it. And they said they were only sorry 
that they did not have that bloody bastard, as they called the priest, 
to put him on top of it. 

The following night — that would be October eighth — they went 
out to the postoffice, and the postoffice and the house next to it, 
they set fire to both of those, and burned a lot of hay that was 
in the field back of it. And about two hundred yards in the field 
there was a man named MacCullough (?), and they burned his 
house and all the outhouses and two big stacks of oats. They 



372 

burned everything he had but a little house covered with galvan- 
ized iron, which I dare say they could not burn. 

Q. How large a town is this, Mr. Guilfoil? 

A. Two or three hundred. 

Q. When did you leave Ireland? 

A. I left Ireland the twenty-first of October on the steamer 
Celtic. 

Q. What is your home town, Mr. Guilfoil? 

A. Pittsburgh. 

POLICEMEN SHOT AS AN ACT OF WAR 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I would like to ask you about the 
killing of the policemen at the postoffice. There were two killed? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you get any information about why they had been 
killed? 

A. The only information I received as to that was that it must 
have been done by the Irish Republican Army. There were six 
of those policemen. The two that they killed they took all their 
arms and ammunition from them. The papers there brought it 
out about the unscrupulous way in which they robbed the bodies. 
I was there when they put the bodies into carts, and the officer 
took the men's watches and pocketbooks, and gave Stanley's to his 
wife, who was there. The other one was a sergeant, Sergeant 
Dougherty. They did not rob them of these. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What statement did they give as to why 
they were killed? 

A. The statement was made that they were shot and robbed. 

Q. Senator Walsh: But he asked you what made these men 
marked men, — why were they killed? 

A. There was one of them, Stanley, he came up to Mrs. Mc- 
Donough's public house and pulled out a forty-four revolver, and 
he said, "If I only had a few more like these I would damn soon 
finish the Republican Army." His wife said after he was dead 
that life was miserable anyway with him, for all he talked about 
was murder for the last four or' five months. 

Q. Senator Walsh: I would like to have you develop any 
facts or evidence that you have as to what these men had done 
to interfere with the happiness and peace and good order of these 
people before they were shot. 

The Witness: These policemen? 



373 

Senator Walsh: Yes. 

A. Nothing that I know of further. 

Q. Did you hear anything as to why the members of the Re- 
publican Army were going to shoot them, or did shoot them? 

A. The only thing I heard around there was that the Sinn 
Fein, the Republican Army, was trying to take those barracks just 
a week before I arrived in that town. That was one of their moves, 
as Miss MacSwiney said. They had tried to take those barracks 
a week before I came, but did not succeed in doing so. There 
is a little town about six miles from there, Scariff; they started 
on that barracks on Saturday, the eighteenth of September, I think. 
There was about three hundred of the Irish Republican Army 
came there that night, but they did not succeed in taking that 
barracks. The second or third day after that the military or 
police evacuated and went to a town named Killaloe, about eight 
miles away. And the day after that the Irish Republican Army 
came there and tore the barracks down. 

ENGLISH SHOOT HANDCUFFED PRISONERS 
"TRYING TO ESCAPE" 

There were some young fellows, Rogers, a cousin of mine, Mac- 
Mahan, Eagan, and Gildan (?), these four young fellows were 
on the run. They were down at a town named Whitegate about 
eight miles from Scariff. The town of Killaloe is about eight 
or nine miles below Scariff. The River Shannon comes in be- 
tween and divides those towns. They make an angle like this 
I indicating an acute angle). The miltary went across the river in 
a boat and arrested all four of these young fellows, and two others 
who owned the house in which they were living. They took them 
across the river, and not through their own town, and the four 
of them were shot on the Killaloe Bridge. There is quite a depth 
of water there, and right in the middle of the bridge is where they 
were shot. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What date? 

A. I have the papers here. 

Q. Did this happen before you left Ireland? 

A. No, these men were shot since. 

Q. Were these men shot before or after the shooting of the 
police? 

A. After. This happened about the fifteenth or sixteenth. The 
paper is dated the nineteenth. The military tried to make it out 
that these men were shot trying to escape, but the paper brings it 



374 

out that these men could not have tried to escape in the middle 
of the bridge, because the channel is too deep there, and they 
were handcuffed. 

Q. Were the bodies found? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Handcuffed when they were found? 

A. No, the military took their bodies to their barracks and 
would not let the people of the village see them after they had 
them in there. 

Q. How long had they been pursuing them? 

A. These young fellows who were arrested had been on the 
run since September, 1918. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Mr. Guilfoil, with a Republican Army of 
three hundred around there, there must be a state of war. 

A. 0, yes. 

Q. Were these young men armed? 

A. Yes. 

REPRISALS AGAINST UNARMED CIVILIANS 

Q. Were the civilians in the village armed? 

A. 0, no. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: But no one was killed in the town? 

A. Five were later injured, I understand since leaving there. 
I got some literature from there since I left, and practically the 
entire section of the country has been wiped out, their homes and 
corn stacks and hay burned. Any persons who proclaim any 
sympathy with the Irish Republic have their homes and property 
burned. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Where did this bullet (indicating ex- 
hibit) enter your home? 

A. Right by the window down the hallway. 

Q. So that if you had been down there, you might have been 
hit? 

A. Yes, if I happened to be sitting at the table, it would have 
been the perfect range, the perfect range for hitting me. 

FUNERAL DOMINATED BY ARMED MILITARY 

There's one thing more. I was in Cork on the seventeenth, the 
eighteenth, and nineteenth of October. I went from there to 
Queenstown to sail on the Celtic on the twenty-first. There was 
one of the hunger strikers there named Fitzgerald, and he died 



375 

there in prison. And at his funeral my little boys were walking 
up the streets, and they wanted two little American flags to pin 
on their coats. And I went into a store there and got them some. 
At the funeral there was the coffin coming up the street, and the 
military on both sides of the coffin, which was covered with 
wreaths of green, white, and gold, the Sinn Fein colors, and the 
Sinn Fein flag. And as they passed the Windsor Hotel, where I 
was staying at — (It is on what street, Miss MacSwiney?) 

Miss MacSwiney: On MacCurtain Street. 

The Witness: As they passed the hotel the military took their 
bayonets and threw these wreaths off the hearse. Anything more 
horrible I never want to see than an armed military body fol- 
lowing a coffin. The friends wanted to have a hundred march 
after the coffin, but the authorities said that any formation would 
not be tolerated by the British officials. They followed that cof- 
fin with rifles and machine guns all the way out to the cemetery. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they interfere with the boys with the 
American flags? 

A. No. There was a piece in one of the Cork papers about 
American flags being displayed at the funeral. The distance that 
the boys walked along there was about fifty or sixty yards. As 
soon as I saw the military coming along, I took the boys and 
got away from there, for I thought there might be trouble. 

Q. But they did not interfere with the funeral? 

A. No. They followed the coffin out to the cemetery and 
stood around there until it was over. 

PEOPLE SUPPORT REPUBLICAN ARMY DESPITE 

REPRISALS 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I would like to go back to this 
village. There were barracks there attacked by three hundred of 
the Republican Army? 

A. Yes, that was on September eighteenth. 

Q. A week later — a few weeks later, these reprisals were made 
and these young men were taken out and shot? 

A. Yes, ma'am. 

Q. What was the attitude of the countryside? Were they hos- 
tile to the Irish Army coming in and stirring up the British to 
make trouble, or did they sympathize with them? 

A. The attitude of the people was that since the British had 
placed the military there — they are bringing them in by the thou- 
sands — the people had a right to rise against him. 



376 

Q. But the people of the countryside, did they feel that the 
Irish Army was right in taking the barracks when it brought re- 
prisals on civilians? 

A. yes, indeed. The whole countryside was with them. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That is, that they are with the Republican 
form of government, and they are standing behind what they do 
in the way of warfare? 

A. Yes, 0, yes. 

The Commission: That is all. Thank you very much. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



TESTIMONY OF DANIEL FRANCIS 
CROWLEY 

Chairman Howe: Proceed, Mr. Malone, please. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: What is your full name please? 

A. Daniel Francis Crowley. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. I was born at Bohocoglin, County Kerry, Ireland. 

Q. How old are you? A. Twenty-three years. 

Q. When did you enlist in the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. I enlisted in March, 1916. I presented my name for ap- 
pointment in March, 1916, and I was called out on the third of 
July, 1917. 

THE TRAINING OF A POLICE RECRUIT 

Q. And after you were called out, where did you go for train- 
ing? 

A. To the Phoenix Park Barracks in Dublin. 

Q. How long did you remain there? 

A. I remained there until the eighteenth of January, 1918. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Why not bring out how long he has 
been connected with the Royal Irish Constabulary? When did 
he resign? 

Mr. D. F. Malone: yes. How long were you connected with 
the R. I. C? 

A. I tendered my resignation on the first day of June last. 

Senator Walsh: Very good. Now go back to the training. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: While at this Phoenix Park Training 
Camp, what training did you receive? 



377 

A. Training in infantry drill, gymnastics, and ordinary police 
duties. 

Q. Did you have bayonet practice? A. Just a little. 

Q. How much? 

A. Something about five or six days' practice altogether. 

Q. Were you trained in the use of hand grenades and bombs? 

A. That was in March, 1919. It was in March of this year 
that I was trained in the use of bombs. 

Q. So that training you got at a later period? 

A. Yes. 

Q. The trading you got at the Phoenix Park Camp was train- 
ing for a policeman? Is that correct? 

A. Yes, training for a policeman. 

Q. What were the instructions given you, very generally and 
very briefly, with regard to the use of firearms? 

A. The instructions I was given when I was trained in Dublin 
was that a policeman should never resort to the use of firearms 
at all, except in case he was attacked. 

Q. Except in self-defense? A. Yes. 

Q. What firearms were you equipped with? 

A. A carbine, like what is called a revolver. 

Q. A carbine or revolver, and what else? A. A sword. 

Q. A sword? A. Yes. 

POLICE ARMED FOR AGGRESSIVE WAR IN 1919 

Q. Was that equipment added to later on? 

A. I beg your pardon. 

Q. Were you given any additional equipment later, during 
those three years? 

A. Well, later on we were supplied with bombs and hand 
grenades and rockets. 

Q. And you said you were trained in the use of these bombs and 
hand grenades in March, 1919? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And you had been in the service then for three years? 

A. Two years. 

Q. What was your home? A. County Clare. 

Q. When you were assigned to police duty, you were assigned 
to police duties there? 

A. No, I was sent to County Tipperary. 

Q. Is there a rule in the Royal Irish Constabulary with re- 
gard to the assignment of men for service in their own counties? 



378 

A. No, you cannot serve in your native county. 

Q. Can you serve in counties neighboring your own county? 

A. Well, on some occasions you can. 

Q. It depends upon the circumstances? A. Yes. 

Q. What was your first post? 

A. My first post was Clogheen, County Tipperary. 

Q. Did you serve there throughout your three years? 

A. Yes, I served in this district while I was there. 

Q. When you say that district, what do you mean? 

A. I mean that I was stationed about three miles from there 

in a place called Ballylooby. 

Q. And you were stationed in this town? 

A. Yes, and in Clogheen. 

Q. So that you were always within a short radius? 

A. Yes, a short radius. 

Q. Was Clogheen a peaceful city? A. Yes, sir, very. 

COMPLETE ABSENCE OF SERIOUS CRIMES 

Q. Throughout your service as a member of the Royal Irish 
Constabulary, did you ever have to make an arrest or serve a 
warrant there? 

A. No, I never arrested a person there during my time, and 
I never issued a summons against any person. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Develop that a little, will you, Mr. 
Crowley? 

Mr. D. F. Malone: Did you ever know of any serious crimes 
committed by any member of the population while you were there? 

A. No, there was no serious crime committed by any member 
of the population. 

Q. Do you remember that incident of petty theft which you 
told me? 

A. yes. Mr. Talbot, the Protestant minister in Clogheen — 
his fishing rod was stolen, and he reported the matter to the police 
sergeant, and the police sergeant could not find his fishing rod 
for him. And then he reported it to the Irish Volunteers, and the 
Irish Volunteers got his fishing rod back for him. And the con- 
sequence was that he said that the police service in Ireland was 
useless, and that the Volunteers were far better. 



379 

ABSOLUTE RELIGIOUS HARMONY 

Q. What was the religious feeling between the people there? 

A. The religious peace was very great. 

Q. So that you never knew of any disputes between the people 
on matters of religion? A. 0, no. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did they trade with one another freely? 

A. 0. yes. 

Q. Did they go to each other's houses freely? 

A. 0, yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: How many Protestants there? 

A. About thirty Protestants. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they hold any public offices? 

A. Clogheen being a small place, sir, there was no public office 
there for them. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: How many constables were there in 
the barracks? 

A. Five. Four constables and a sergeant. 

Q. About how many square miles? 

A. About fourteen thousand, covering the district around 
Clogheen. 

Q. Not fourteen thousand square miles? 

A. Oh, no. Fourteen thousand acres, I mean. 

Q. During the period of three years there were no serious 
crimes committed? A. No, sir; no serious crimes. 

Q. Nothing more serious than the theft of a fishing rod? 

A. Nothing more serious. That is all, sir. 

Q. Mr. Crowley, you said there were about thirty Protestants, 
and there was a Protestant clergyman. And was there a Catholic 
priest for the entire diocese there? 

A. Yes, Father O'Donnelly and two curates. 

Q. What was the relation between the Protestant minister and 
the Catholic priest? 

A. They lived on very friendly terms. 

Q. The population of Clogheen is about six hundred? 

A. Yes, the population is about six hundred. 

Q. And the general area, inclusive of Clogheen? 

A. Including the district of Clogheen, which Clogheen took in, 
I think about two thousand — -that is, the surrounding lands which 
went with the village in the police district. 



380 

GENERAL LUCAS ORDERS SINN FEINERS 
SUMMARILY SHOT 

Q. Do you remember the period of time when Lord Mayor 
MacCurtain of Cork was shot? 

A. Yes, I do. 

Q. Do you know what the orders issued to police immediately 
before and continuing for a time after that murder were? 

A. Yes. The orders issued where I was stationed in Clogheen 
by General Lucas, who commanded the military forces of Cork and 
Tipperary, were that if two police could be spared to go with the 
military, they were to go on an armored car with a machine gun, 
and they were to patrol the country night and day, and every man 
who took a prominent part in the Sinn Fein movement they were 
to stand up in front of his house and turn the machine gun on it. 
In this armored car there were put one hundred twenty cans of 
petrol and also one hundred twenty Mills bombs, and the reason 
for this was that they were for burning houses. That was the orders 
which General Lucas, who was afterwards kidnapped at Fermoy, 
gave in the barracks. If they found a Sinn Feiner, they were to turn 
the machine gun on him. 

Q. Chairman Howe: On him or on his house? 

A. On anything that belonged to him. 

Q. Did you hear these instructions issued yourself? 

A. Yes, I was in the barracks when he issued them. 

Q. Were those general orders carried out? 

A. The military carried them out. I did not, as did also two 
other men who protested against it. I remember that on the night 
of May 21st myself and Constables Kirwan and Galvin — Mr. Galvin 
will also speak here — we were sent out on a night patrol, and two 
Black-and-Tans named Richards and Gillett were with us. And 
about nine o'clock Richards said he wanted us to show him where 
Maurice Walsh and William Joseph Condon lived; that he was 
going to shoot them. Condon was chairman of the Clogheen Dis- 
trict Council. The only reason for shooting them was that the 
Sunday before these men had said at a meeting of the Council that 
Clogheen was such a peaceful district that they could well get on 
without the military stationed there. There were one hundred of 
the military stationed there then. It was a peaceful district, and 
so Walsh and Condon protested against such a lot of military 
stationed there. The acts of the military were something dis- 
graceful. 



381 

DISGRACEFUL ACTS OF MILITARY 

Q. Describe what you mean by "the acts of the military were 
something disgraceful." 

A. Well, I have seen them stop two girls of the town coming 
to the Rosary at half -past six in the evening, and they said to the 
girls, "Hands up," and knocked them down. And I came to their 
rescue and said, "Stop; they are innocent girls." And I surely 
believe that if I had not been there, they would have been brutally 
assaulted. 

Q. What other acts did you witness that make you believe that 
the acts of the military were something disgraceful? 

A. They were so disgraceful that Mr. Talbot, the Protestant 
minister at Clogheen, wrote to Dublin Castle saying that their acts 
and deeds in Clogheen were something shameful, this Devonshire 
regiment, and he got them sent out of the district. 

Q. You said that these Black-and-Tans went out to kill this man 
Walsh and the other man. What did you have to do with it? 

A. They did not know where these two men lived. They only 
wanted me and this man Galvin to show them where these two men 
lived. They would go and shoot them, they said, and bring back 
their ears as evidence to the barracks. We would not show them, 
and turned back to the barracks, and begged Richards to come back 
to the barracks. 'Richards got behind a blackthorn fence. We 
begged him to come on back with us. He said that if we came 
one step nearer, he would blow our brains out. We went on down 
the road, and when we were only about two hundred yards away, 
he fired several shots at us — when we were only two hundred yards 
away. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Were those men killed afterwards? 

A. No. The next day I went into the village and told Walsh 
and Condon what Richards had done; that he wanted me and Galvin 
to show them where these men lived so that they could shoot them. 
It went out publicly then, what these Black-and-Tans, who were the 
only ones in the barracks, wanted to do. And they heard of it, and 
Gillett pointed his loaded revolver at me three times and wanted 
to shoot me. And I guess they would have shot me, but there was 
an Irish sergeant there, and they were afraid to do it. 

Q. How many Black-and-Tans were there in your barracks? 

A. Just three of them. 

Q. Chairman Howe: And how many of the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary? 

A. There were five, sir. 



382 

Q. Senator Walsh: And one hundred military? 

A. Yes, one hundred military. 

Q. Who controls the Black-and-Tans there? 

A. Since March last the Black-and-Tans are under military 
orders. 

Q. So since March last the Black-and-Tans and the military are 
the same thing? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: You said that Mr. Walsh and Mr. Condon 
were not killed? 

A. No, they are still there. 

Q. Did they not go on the run? 

A. No, they are still in Clogheen. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I would like to ask about the two 
girls whom the Black-and-Tans commanded to throw up their hands. 
What happened to them? 

A. Well, on this evening, an English soldier and six Black-and- 
Tans shouted at the girls, "Hands up!" and they began to search 
them. And I came on them and said, "Stop, stop. They are inno- 
cent girls!" 

Q. But you had no proof that they had evil motives. One man 
like yourself could not stop them if they had. 

The Witness: But what right did they have to assault the girls? 

Q. Senator Walsh: But there was no attempt to rape? Their 
clothes were not disheveled? 

A. No, there was no rape. But they were searching them, and 
their clothes were disheveled. 

Commissioner Addams: We have had no testimony of that kind, 
and we want to be positive. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: But the girls were knocked down. 

Commissioner Addams: He did not say they were knocked down, 
but that they were told to throw up their hands. 

The Witness; No; one of them, a Miss Barrett, had fallen down 
in the road. 

Q. Chairman Howe: You were in uniform? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And you knew these men? 

A. Yes, I knew all of them. 

Q. They were stationed in the barracks with you? 

A. Yes, in the same barracks. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: What was the reason for stationing so 
many of the military in a peaceful district like Clogheen? 



383 

A. Well, they were trying to stir the people up, it seems to me. 
Q. So that as far as your business goes, the military there in this 
peaceful district only stirred the people up? 
A. Yes, sir. 

MURDER OF POLICE WHO RESIGN 

Q. Did you know of any police murders after police had re- 
signed? 

A. Yes, I know of a Constable Fahey stationed at Adare, in 
County Limerick. The rule of the Government is that a man must 
give from three to six weeks' notice before he can resign. This 
man Fahey was out on duty one day after he had sent in his resig- 
nation. Three Black-and-Tahs were with him, and when they came 
back they said that they were attacked by Sinn Feiners and Fahey 
was killed. None of them had been injured, and they had not 
arrested anybody. 

Q. Senator Walsh: By whom was he killed? 

A. They said he was attacked by Sinn Feiners. 

Q. They were safe themselves? 

A. Yes, they were all right. 

Q. Did you see this? 

A. No, sir. 

DESTRUCTION OF HOMES OF REPUBLICAN 
SYMPATHIZERS 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: You said that this general gave 
orders for the homes and property of Republican sympathizers to 
be destroyed. How many houses and hay ricks were destroyed 
where you were? 

A. Well, none were destroyed around Clogheen. 

Q. None in Clogheen? 

A. No, sir. But there were in other parts of Ireland. 

Q. Why were none destroyed in Clogheen? 

A. Because the people were so quiet there. The people there 
were in favor of the military and police going out of Ireland. They 
were not wanted there. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: This General Lucas, who was kidnapped, 
was treated very well when he was kidnapped, was he not? 

A. I do not know. 

The Commission: That is beyond his knowledge. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: Mr. Chairman, may we get this cleared up to 
answer Mr. Thomas' question? 



384 

Chairman Howe: Yes. 

Mr. D. F. Malone I to Commissioner Thomas ) : Did you under- 
stand that the people were not attacked because they were so quiet? 

Commissioner Thomas: Yes; that is, because the people were so 
quiet. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Do you remember the incident of the raid 
on Mrs. Walsh's home? 

A. Yes, I do. 

Q. Who was Mrs. Walsh? 

A. Mrs. Walsh lived about two and a half miles from Clogheen. 
Her husband died in May last. 

Q. Wait a minute, Mr. Crowley. Had Mrs. Walsh any family? 

A. Yes, she had three little children, the eldest being about ten 
years. 

Q. Where did she live? 

A. At Castlegrace. 

Q. What happened? 

A. On different occasions the military would raid her house, 
sometimes at twelve o'clock and sometimes at two. It got so bad 
that she complained to County Inspector Langhorne, the county 
police inspector for the South of Ireland, and he said it was too 
bad, but he could do nothing for her, because the military were not 
under the control of the police inspector. 

Q. The Commissioner: Who carried this on? 

A. The military and the Black-and-Tans. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Why did they raid this house? 

A. Because they suspected that the Volunteers were training 
around there. But they never found anything in the house on any 
of the raids — not anything. , 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Were you there? 

A. I was there on one occasion, and refused to go into the Walsh 
house. 

Q. Did you hear reports about it? 

A. Yes, I heard reports in the barracks when they got back, and 
also heard of it from the Walshs themselves. 

REASON FOR RESIGNING FROM CONSTABULARY 

Q. Mr. Malone: Do the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Black- 
and-Tans get along very well together? 

A. No, they do not. Inspector General Smith, Deputy Inspector 
Geddis, Mr. Pierce, and several others, and five hundred men of 
the ranks, tendered their resignations from the force during April 



385 

and May because of the present conditions that are disgracing the 
service. 

Q. Out of how many? 

A. Out of nine thousand men. 

Q. The Royal Irish Constabulary are not used any more alone 
now? 

A. The R. I. C. are not used to carry out these military orders. 
The Black-and-Tans do that. 

Q. Mr. Crowley, after you resigned, were any attempts made 
against your life? 

A. Yes, after I tendered my resignation, the Black-and-Tans put 
loaded revolvers up and backed me up there against the walls and 
threatened to shoot me. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: For what reason? 

A. Because I had told Mr. Walsh and Condon that they were 
going to shoot them. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Where were these Black-and-Tans from, 
from England? 

A. Yes, from England; most all ex-army men. 

Q. Were they officers from the ranks, or of the office class? 

A. Most of them were from the ranks, or petty officers. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Why did you tender your resignation from the 
Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. I tendered my resignation from the Constabulary because of 
the misgovernment of the English in Ireland. 

POLICE ORDERED TO SHOOT SINN FEINERS AT 

SIGHT 

Q. Do you remember the incident at Listowel Barracks, in 
County Kerry, when Colonel Smyth made an address to the mem- 
bers of the R. I. C? 

A. Yes, a friend of mine was one of the Constabulary there. 
Colonel Smyth was there. He had just come over from Germany, 
from the Army of Occupation. There were eighteen or twenty of 
the Constabulary there, and Colonel Smyth told them that they 
were going to get plenty of soldiers from England to crush out 
Sinn Fein, and that three of them were to remain in the Listowel 
barracks as guides for the soldiers, and the rest were to go to the 
outlying barracks and point out Sinn Feiners to the military, and 
every man who took part in the Sinn Fein movement was to be shot 
at sight. 



386 

Q. Senator Walsh: When was that? 

A. That was in April, I think. 1 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: In April, 1920? 

A. April, 1920. 

Q. Just repeat what he said. 

A. Colonel Smyth told the police that they were all going to 
get every assistance from the Government — soldiers and machine 
guns and armored cars and everything they needed — and they were 
to patrol the roads five nights a week; and they were not to confine 
themselves to the roads, but to go across country, and search homes 
wherever they thought arms and munitions were hid. 

Q. You stated what Colonel Smyth said to do to any man who 
was suspected of being of Republican sympathies. 

A. Yes, any man who was suspected of having Sinn Fein sym- 
pathies was to be shot at sight; Colonel Smyth said the more the 
merrier, and that no man would get into any trouble for shooting 
them. He said any man who would not carry out these orders had 
better get off the force. Sergeant Sullivan spoke immediately and 
said that they could tell Colonel Smyth must be an Englishman 
by his talk, and that they would not obey such orders; and he took 
off his coat and cap and belt and laid them on the table. Colonel 
Smyth and the Inspector, O'Shea, ordered him to be arrested for 
causing disaffection in the force, but nineteen of them stood up and 
said if a man touched him, the room would run red with blood. 
The soldiers whom Colonel Smyth had with him came in, but the 
constables got their loaded rifles off the racks, and Colonel Smyth 
and the soldiers went back to Cork. The very next day they all put 
on civilian clothes and left the barracks. 

Q. They all resigned? 

A. Yes, they left the very next day. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Were you in the barracks? 

A. No, but my friend who was there told me about this. That 
Colonel Smyth went to Cork and was shot five days afterwards. 
Q. This Smyth was an officer in the British army? 
A. Yes, sir, he was a colonel. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Was he in the old army, or was he pro- 
moted during the war? 

A. He was promoted during the war. 



1 The actual date of the speech was June 19, 1920. See index, and 
Report of Commission, Appendix "E." 



387 

BLACK-AND-TANS PAID HIGHER THAN REGULAR 

POLICE 

Q. I would like to ask you what pay the constables received. 

A. The wages were advanced in March, 1919. When I resigned 
we were offered two shillings a day more if we would remain. The 
pay then was twenty pounds a month — in American money, at pres- 
ent rates of exchange, about eighty dollars. 

Q. And keep? 

A. No, no keep. You supply that. 

Q. What was the pay of the Black-and-Tans? 

A. The Black-and-Tans were getting one and seven a day, I 
think. 

Q. One pound seven shillings a day? 

A. Yes; that is twenty-seven shillings a day. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Why do you say you think that? 

A. The pay was not made known to the R. I. C. in the barracks. 

Q. Chairman Howe: So that the Black-and-Tans are getting 
about twice what you got? 

A. Well, they were getting seven shillings more a day than we 
would get after the raise. 

DESTRUCTION OF CREAMERIES BY MILITARY 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Mr. Crowley, what can you tell us about 
the destruction of creameries? 

A. Well, I remember passing by Kilcommon and Waycross, in 
Tipperary, the day after the creamery there had been destroyed. 
There were thirty-six soldiers and officers who had taken crowbars 
and knocked down the creamery, saying they were looking for arms 
and ammunition. They didn't find any, but they wrecked the 
creamery. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: When was that? 

A. It was in the end of March or the first of April. 1 

SUPPRESSION OF FAIRS, MARKETS, AND 
RIGHT OF ASSEMBLY 
Q. Were fairs and markets prohibited at this time? 
A. Fairs and markets in Tipperary were prohibited for about a 
year, from February, 1919, to the end of March, 1920 — for over 
a year, that is. 



1 The Kilcommon Central Creamery (cooperative) was destroyed April 
10, 1920. Direct personal evidence was given before the County Court 
that the damage was inflicted by military and police. 



388 

Q. What was carried on at these fairs? 

A. The chief purpose of these fairs was that the Irish farmers 
could sell their cattle and butter and their foodstuffs in these mar- 
kets. The government issued a proclamation that fairs and markets 
were not to be held in County Tipperary. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Are they held there now? 

A. They are held there now, but they were not until March, 
1920. 

Q. Is that general throughout Ireland? 

A. Well, in some counties. The proclamation is on in Cork 
and Dublin and Clare. 

Q. Senator Walsh: How long have the people been denied the 
right to assemble and to meet for public meetings and public dis- 
cussions? 

A. Especially since March, 1919, no meetings have been allowed 
to be held. 

Q. Is that still true? 

A. Yes. If a man wanted to sell his house or farm, he could 
not sell it without a permit — an auction would not be allowed to 
take place. And if he were a Sinn Fein sympathizer, he couldn't 
get the permit. If a hunting match or a football match took place 
without a permit, a party of soldiers would come and drive them 
off the field at the point of the bayonet. 

Q. Since what time? 

A. Since March, 1919. 

NO SHOOTING OF POLICEMEN TO WARRANT 
SUPPRESSION IN COUNTY CLARE 

Q. Now, in the County of Clare were there any murders of police 
officers or any interference .with police officers previous to March, 
1919? 

A. In the County of Clare? 

Q. Yes. 

A. No, there was not, sir. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: You say, Mr. Crowley, that there 
had been orders to shoot on sight a Sinn Feiner or Republican. 
But that was never done in daylight? 

A. Most of the cases were at night, yes. 

Q. So that they did not carry out that order of shooting with 
machine guns on sight? 

A. Well, they did. The military carried out the order in differ- 
ent places of setting fire to houses. 



389 

Q. Yes, but shooting people on sight was not done. 

A. Not in Clogheen, but it was done in other parts of Ireland. 

Commissioner Addams : We have never had any evidence or hear- 
say of that being done. 

Mr. Malone: We have not produced any testimony about that, but 
we can produce testimony of many instances of that kind. 

WHY SOME IRISH POLICE HAVE NOT RESIGNED 

Q. Senator Walsh : Did you belong to any Sinn Fein organiza- 
tion while you were a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. While I was in the R. I. C. I was in favor and sympathy with 
the Irish movement. 

Q. But while you were in the R. I. C. did you belong to any such 
organization? 

A. No, I didn't. But I belonged to one after I left. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Miss Addams' other remark prompts this 
question: Why did you or any Irishmen remain in the Royal Irish 
Constabulary? 

A. Well, I guess they remain just for their living. That is all. 

Q. Does the fact that they are nearing the time for getting a 
pension, in the case of the older men long in the service — is that a 
factor? 

A. Yes, there are men of long service who are waiting now to 
get a pension. If they do not wait they will be losing from the 
English Government about a hundred forty to a hundred fifty 
pounds a year. 

LEFT IRELAND TO PROTECT LIFE FROM BLACK- 

AND-TANS 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Mr. Crowley, have you a family? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Why did you leave Ireland? 

A. I was afraid of the Black-and-Tans, that they would follow 
me. 

Q. You left on account of your health, then? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: That is all. 

I The witness was thereupon excused. I 



390 

Chairman Howe: Have you other witnesses from the Royal Irish 
Constabulary? 

Mr. Malone: Yes, sir; three others. 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN TANGNEY 

Chairman Howe: Proceed, Mr. Malone. 

Q. Mr. Malone: What is your full name, Mr. Tangney? 

A. John Tangney. 

Q. And where were you born? 

A. I was born in Castleisland, County Kerry. 

Q. How old are you? 

A. I am about twenty-five. 

Q. What education have you had? 

A. I was educated in the national schools and at the Christian 
Brothers. 

Q. Where are you living now? 

A. New York. 

Q. How long have you been out of Ireland? 

A. Since August. 

FIVE YEARS' SERVICE IN CONSTABULARY 

Q. When did you join the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. I was appointed in October, 1915. 

Q. How long did you remain in the service? 

A. From that date until most of July last. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I did not get that date. 

A. From the first of October, 1915, to July, 1920. 

Q. Mr. Malone: During that time, where were you stationed? 

A. I was in the southern part of Tipperary. I was temporarily 
stationed at Clonmel, but my permanent station was at Ballylooby. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is Ballylooby a Tipperary name? 

A. Yes, it is in Tipperary, the southern part of Tipperary. 

Q. Mr. Malone: So that your entire service with the Royal Irish 
Constabulary was in one part of one particular county? 

A. Well, I was in various places for a time, for two or three 
months. I was in Limerick City and Cork City for a time. 

Q. That is just what I wanted to know. Where did you serve 
in different places? 

A. I was in Midstone, County Cork, for a short time, and in 
Cork City for a short while, and in Limerick City; and on two or 
three occasions I was sent to the north of Ireland for duty; but 
that lasted only for about a week at a time. After the Ballylooby 
station was quit, I was at Clogheen. 



Q 



391 
Did you hear Mr. Crowley's testimony just now? 



A. Yes, sir, I heard it. 

Q. Where were you trained? 

A. In Phoenix Park Depot, Dublin. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is that the general training place? 

A. Yes, it was at that time. 

Q. Mr. Malone: How long were you there? 

A. I was six months at that training school. That was the plan. 
If you did not qualify for police duties and the other things you 
were supposed to qualify in at the end of six months — in police 
duties and physical drill, gymnastics — you would be disqualified. 
You might have to spend a short term longer, or they could dis- 
qualify and suspend you and dismiss you at that time. I qualified 
with several hundred others at the end of the six months, and I was 
sent down to Clonmel, in County Tipperary, at that time. 

CONSTABULARY CHANGED TO AN AGGRESSIVE 
ARMED FORCE 

Q. What were your instructions regarding the use of firearms? 

A. Except there was a personal attack made upon you — that is, 
in self-defense — you were never under any considerations to use 
firearms. 

Q. And what was the first time thereafter — after you had passed 
your training and were an accepted member of the R. I. C. — what 
was the first time or stage at which these orders were changed? 

A. There was no definite order for a change to be made. They 
were changed gradually. Like the members of the force, they were 
changed gradually in the same way. Of course, the police code 
that you had to learn in the training school said that you were 
never under any circumstances to use your firearms except in case 
of personal attack in self-defense. 

Q. What use did the R. I. C. have for firearms in other cases 
than personal attack and self-defense? 

A. For show purposes mainly, until the new orders came. 

Q. Were orders to use these arms for purposes of aggression 
ever issued? 

A. Yes, latterly. They were issued latterly. 

Q. When were the first orders of that kind issued? 

A. The first orders of that kind that came to us from Dublin 
Castle was in October of last year, October, 1919. 

Q. What were those orders? 

A. First, this circular came down from the Castle that political 



392 

prisoners — a batch of political prisoners had escaped from Lincoln 
jail. Their names and descriptions were given in this official docu- 
ment, as it is termed, The Hue and Cry. Their descriptions and 
ages were given. The first order was that they were to be arrested 
if they came within view — within our notice anywhere. That was 
the wording of the first article. They were to be treated in the first 
article just the same as a criminal. Following that article there 
was the receipt of an order they called a confidential article by 
the sergeant of the station on November fourth, stating that if these 
political prisoners were seen and in case they came within the police 
notice and they offered the slightest resistance, they were to be 
shot dead. 

Q. Chairman Howe: These were political prisoners? 

A. Yes. They named one in particular. I did not know what 
position he held. His name was Mr. Stack. 

Q. His name was specifically mentioned? 

A. Yes. Since I left the force, I found that he was an Irish 
M. P. (Member of Parliament) in the Sinn Fein movement. Of 
course I did not know from The Hue and Cry what position he held. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Now, let me see. Stack was one of the men 
elected in the elections of 1918 to the British Parliament? 

A. Yes, that is right, sir. 

Q. And instead of going to the British Parliament, he went to 
the Irish Parliament? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And he was in prison and escaped? 

A. Yes, he was an escaped prisoner. 

POPULATION NEVER BETRAYS POLITICAL 
REFUGEES 

Q. Chairman Howe: Why is it that so many men known to be 
on the run in Ireland — with apparently thousands of men on the run 
— why are they not easily apprehended? 

A. Well, I could not answer that question as regards political 
prisoners. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is not the reason that the British soldiers do 
not know them by name, and they would be shooting the first man 
they met, because they are all on the run? 

A. Yes, sir; that is so. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Is it not true that the population is largely on 
the run with them? 



393 

A. Yes, certainly. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Then it would be right to say that the 
population of Ireland protects these men on the run? 

A. Oh, yes, absolutely. Since the inception of the Sinn Fein 
movement — as the Irish Government officially puts it, since 1918 — 
never have I heard anyone, even unconnected with the Sinn Fein 
movement, uttering a word about them in the Sinn Fein movement 
who are wanted. 

Q. Then the people do not give information about them, or give 
them up? 

A. No, no. There was thousands of pounds offered for informa- 
tion for their arrest, but it was all fruitless. None were ever given 
up, or information forwarded. 

Q. It was fruitless? 

A. It was fruitless. There was one case in the King's Bench 
court in Dublin City where a man gave information about the kill- 
ing of. a policeman; and the judge from the bench called the in- 
former a liar in the same breath. 

Q. That is the only case you ever heard of? 

A. It is the only case I ever heard of. In our own barracks I 
had to post up notices offering a reward of five to six hundred 
pounds for anyone who would go into the barracks and give secret 
information about the location of certain prisoners. But that was 
fruitless. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is it not true that there are people still in 
Ireland who will come forward and give information leading to 
the arrest of these men who are wanted? 

A. Well, that is the information I have to offer. Even with 
these large sums, the people will not give the information. 

Q. And that explains the comparative immunity of these men 
who are on the run — why they can go from house to house with 
safety? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How about the R. I. C? Do they help the British Govern- 
ment in apprehending these men? 

A. Certainly, they did. They did. 

Q. Are their sympathies with their jobs or with Ireland? 

A. They haven't very much of their old jobs left to them. The 
only thing that you had to do as a policeman since 1918 was to lead 
the military around and point out the men they wanted to get, or 
to follow up the Sinn Fein prisoners. 

Q. But the constables did perform their duties? 

A. That is the only duty left for them to do. Isaid since 1918. 



394 

because that was when the orders changing the police code were 
given me. 

Q. But the R. I. C. still do their work? 

A. Yes, that is all they can do. 

Q. Senator Walsh: The reason that these men avoid arrest is 
that they can go from one village to another and no one will betray 
them? 

A. There is not one single case where the Irish people have 
betrayed men on the run. 

Q. Chairman Howe: May I ask Miss MacSwiney if that is her 
experience too? 

A. Miss MacSwiney: Oh, yes, certainly; the Irish people will 
not inform. 

Q. No informers? A. No informers. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Do you remember the orders issued by General 
Deasey? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. For instance, when did the military first come to police this 
section in Tipperary when you were a member of the force? When 
did they begin to come? 

A. Not actively until the beginning of this year. 

Q. When did they come in large numbers, before or after the 
murder of the Lord Mayor of Cork? 

A. It might coincide that they came exactly then, but they came 
some time before and about the same date. Of course they were 
spread throughout the whole southern part of Ireland at that time. 

Q. Who was General Deasey? 

A. He was a divisional commissioner appointed for the southern 
province of Munster. He had control of the military and police. 

Q. He was a British general? 

A. Yes, he was a brigadier general. He held one of the highest 
ranks in the army, that of a brigadier general. 

Q. When did he come to Ireland? 

A. In March of last year he was appointed. 

Q. In March, 1919? 

A. Yes, March, 1919. His business was making occasional tours 
of the barracks and the instruction and inspection of the men, par- 
ticularly those of this new force known as the Black-and-Tans. He 
was on a special conference with them. 

BLACK-AND-TANS TRAINED AS MILITARY, 
IGNORANT AS POLICE 

Q. Mr. Malone: Before we get to the orders, when did this new 
force, the Black-and-Tans, come to Ireland? 

A. The first that I saw was in March, and the first that came 
to the barracks where I was stationed was in April. 



395 

Q. Chairman Howe: 1920? 

A. 1920, yes. Of course I saw them going through the county, 
but the first that came to our barracks was in April. 

Q. How did they differ from the police? Were they trained? 

A. Yes, as regards military work, they were; but as regards 
police duties, they had nothing like that. They trained them in a 
special training school in County Kildare, while our training was 
in Phoenix Park in Dublin. It took us six months, and most of them 
got through their training in six days. 

Q. Were they efficient in their duties? 

A. They absolutely knew nothing about police duties. On one 
occasion there was a county inspector whose duty it was to visit the 
barracks. He was trying to instruct these fellows, and we were all 
in the barracks, for we had to go to school to him. And he asked 
this fellow what was his power of arrest, and he said he didn't 
know. He tried to make it simpler to him. He said, "If you see 
a man on the street, and you ask him to give you his name and 
address, and he refuses, what would you do?" And this Black-and- 
Tan said, "If I met a man on the street and asked him his name 
and address, and he refused, I would lift him right under the jaw, 
and the next thing I would use my bayonet. That is what I would 
do to the man." 

ARMED MILITARY INVADE RELIGIOUS SERVICES 

Q. Now tell us about General Deasey. What were his orders? 

A. The original orders were issued in May. 

Q. 1920? A. 1920. 

Q. Just tell us what these orders were. 

A. These orders were that all policemen should go to mass — it 
mentioned Roman Catholics particularly — that they were to go to 
mass in formation. The two in front were to take revolvers and 
the last two were to take rifles. The revolvers were to be worn 
with lanyards. The two with rifles were to keep their rifles at the 
ready with bullets in the breech until mass was over. And when 
mass was over they were to march through the crowds the same way. 
And if there was any hostility shown, they were to shoot. That 
was the general tenor of the orders. It might not be the exact 
words. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do I understand that these military officers 
were up in front of the church standing with drawn rifles? 

A. Yes, sir, ready to fire. 

Q. Was it for self-protection during the service, or was it to 
preserve order in the church during divine services? 



396 

A. It did not state that it was for self-preservation. 

Q. What did it state it was for? 

A. Anybody who read the order could see that it was to try and 
goad the people on. And more than that, it related particularly 
to the R. C.'s — that is, the Roman Catholics. 

Q. Was that for every religious service? 

A. Just for the Roman Catholic services. 

Q. I know, but was this order for these men to go to every 
service that way, or was it for them to go only when they went 
themselves to a service? 

A. I do not understand you, sir. 

Q. We are trying to find out if this order was framed so that 
when Catholic members of the Royal Irish Constabulary went to 
divine services they should go in a certain way as a protection to 
themselves, or whether it was an order for them to go to divine 
services whenever they were held, so that the people should see them 
and know that they were there. 

A. That was the order, and anybody reading it would think that 
that would be what they meant by attending services with drawn 
rifles. It was to terrify people, it seemed to me. 

Q. But if there were two services in the same day, were they 
to go to both services? 

A. Four of them were to go to one service and four to the other. 
They were, if possible, to attend every service. 

Senator Walsh : That is what I was trying to get at. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Did they attend Protestant services also? 

A. Oh, no, sir. 

Q. Did they stand in front of the church with drawn guns 
for self-protection? 

A. Oh, no, sir. They would have been safer behind. If any- 
body had wanted to shoot them, they only made targets out of 
themselves by standing in the front of the church. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Whose orders were these? 

A. General Deasey's orders. 

ORDERED TO BAYONET SINN FEIN 
SYMPATHIZERS 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Was there another order? 

A. Yes, that was in the barracks. There were six Black-and- 
Tans present when General Deasey came to the barracks, and he 
was questioning them about what they knew about Sinn Feiners 
and the movement that was going on in the southern part of the 



397 

country. And he said that in case they were able to identify a 
person with Sinn Fein sympathies passing the barracks or going 
near the barracks, to bayonet him and not to waste good powder 
on him, but to just bayonet him. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was that before the raids were made on the 
barracks? 

A. That was in May or June of this year. 

Q. But there were many raids made on barracks. 

A. They were not raided there then. 

Q. In that locality? 

A. No, there were no raids in that locality. It was uncalled for 
in that locality. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: There were no raids on the barrack 
in which you were stationed? 

A. No, there were none whatever. It was a most peaceful 
district. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Now tell us about the feis incident. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I would like to ask you whether, at 
the time when this order was given about the squads of police going 
to church under arms, there had been any disturbances in any of 
the parish churches? 

A. No, there had never been. There had never been in any of 
the churches with which I am acquainted. 

Q. There had been no disturbances? 

A. None whatever. 

Q. Senator Walsh: It was to terrify the people? 

A. Yes, anybody who read the order would see that. It was to 
terrify the people. Redman and Foley were the first Black-and- 
Tans that came to the Ballyporeen barracks, and they had special 
instructions given to them in the office apart from the rest of us. 
None of those fellows used to go to any service, although they were 
supposed to be Protestants. In fact, on one occasion the sergeant 
told them that it was in the code — in the police regulations — that 
they should attend whatever service they belonged to, and one of 
them said that if he mentioned service again he would send him 
to a place where he could not go to any service. When the inspec- 
tor came, he used to take them upstairs to the sergeant's office, apart 
from us, and have a special conference with them. After this order 
was issued by General Deasey, I noticed from my own observations 
that during service, while the four men were at service in the Cath- 
olic church, none of them left the barracks or stirred from the inside 
of it. That was the first Sunday that the order came into effect, 
and the Roman Catholics had to go to service or else resign. Then 



398 

the inspector had the conference with them, and on the next Sunday 
one of them would go by the Catholic church occasionally to see 
if there was any trouble. And then they had these bombs — a couple 
of hundred bombs in the barracks. 

Q. So that they held these men at the barracks in reserve? 

A. Yes, they held these six men in reserve in the barracks during 
the service. My idea was that if anything turned up at service, they 
could pounce upon them with the bombs and rifles loaded. 

Q. Tell me this: this order that was issued about attending mass 
was a secret order? Was it not the order that the sergeant showed 
you? 

A. Yes, yes; this was the one that the sergeant showed me. It 
was a confidential order, always kept locked up. But the sergeant, 
who was a Catholic, showed it to me. 

Q. Senator Walsh : Were there any orders about interfering with 
the preacher? 

A. No, none at all. 

ORDERED TO SUPPRESS POPULAR FESTIVAL BY 

FORCE 

Q. Mr. Malone: Mr. Tangney, will you go on and tell about 
this feis incident? 

A. That happened in June, 1918. I was stationed at Ballylooby 
at the time. On Saturday night an order came that two men would 
proceed fully armed and equipped to Tipperary town. We pro- 
ceeded there, and when we collected there, there were about fifty 
police. We were put in the military barracks and billeted there for 
the night. The morning after, we proceeded to the regular police 
barracks in the town. We were marched. We got no definite orders 
of what our duties would be after we left the barracks until Sunday 
morning. Then we were lined up in the barrack square, and there 
was an inspector there named Lowndes. He was what was known 
as a special county inspector, sent to Tipperary County to investi- 
gate what they call crimes. 

Q. A plain-clothes man? 

A. Yes, in civilian clothes. This morning he addressed us in the 
back yard of the barrack square, and said that we had come for 
duty. We thought it was a declaration of war of some kind. He 
said there was going to be a feis — that is, a country gathering where 
there is Irish dancing and Irish music and the like — there was going 
to be a feis in Lisvarrinane, some three miles from there. He said, 
"The military authorities have forbidden this feis to take place, 
and it is not going to be held; but from information that we have 



399 

received, the people are going to hold it anyway. But we are going 
to put it down. And any man who is not willing to do his duty 
this day had better drop out of the ranks." No man said anything, 
so we lined up in military ranks and proceeded out on the streets, 
and there were five military lorries out there, and we got into the 
lorries. There were two armored cars — not tanks, but armored cars, 
with machine guns, that went along too. 

We proceeded to Lisvarrinane, this village where the feis was to 
be held; and the people coming along from mass, at the sight of 
these lorries and the military and the police and all the other war 
material, fled in terror like bees. Horses went away from their 
owners' hands and jumped into side ditches, taking carts, passen- 
gers, and all. When finally we arrived in the village there were 
certain police tolled off to assist the military. Their orders were 
if they saw anybody going toward the village, they were to turn 
them back, and fire on them if it was necessary to turn them back. 

Q. Mr. Tangney, I think it will hasten matters if you will just 
tell what you saw happen after you got there — what you had to do. 

DRUNKEN OFFICERS IN COMMAND 

A. That was one thing. The military were divided up. Well, 
then, this County Inspector Lowndes had the orders, and he ad- 
journed to an adjoining saloon and had a drink, and two young 
military officers, who were in charge of the military party, adjourned 
to the place with him and got stupidly drunk. 

Q. So that the three officers in charge of this party were drunk? 

A. Yes, sir; all three were drunk. There were some Irish ter- 
riers outside the saloon door, and the officers took these dogs and 
threw them at each other, and tried to get them to fight. "Yes," 
they said, "we will have to put the dogs to fight, for the Irish dogs 
will not come out and fight us." 

Q. What's that? Will you repeat that whole statement? 

A. They said, "We will have to put the dogs to fight, for the 
Irish dogs will not come out and fight us." Well, we went home, 
and the military were flashing revolvers and yelling all the way 
back. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What is that, flashing? 

A. Firing, firing their revolvers. I myself had to come to a 
soldier who was stupidly drunk and take a revolver out of his hand. 
He was stupidly drunk. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Was that all there was to that particular inci- 
dent? 

A. Yes, that is all. 



400 

Q. Senator Walsh: Now, wait a moment, Mr. Malone. What 
had taken place in that village previous to that night which could 
he in any way advanced as a reason or excuse for this military 
expedition? 

Q. Mr. Malone: What was the reason given for this raid? 

A. Nothing, except that this feis was advertised to he held. 

Q. Was it held? 

A. Oh, no, it was not. 

Q. Senator Walsh: And this military expedition hroke it up? 

A. Oh, yes; they would have broken it up if it had been held. 
But the people did not hold it after the military said they couldn't. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Do you know of any other feis or celebra- 
tions broken up? 

A. Yes, they were broken up. Previous to that it was the com- 
mon practice all over the country to hold them, and they have been 
broken up. 

Q. This was in 1918? 

A. Yes, in 1918. 

Q. Was it more or less a general custom to break them up? 

A. Yes, in 1918 it was quite general. 

Q. Are they being held now? 

A. Well, I don't know whether they are being held this summer 
or not. 

DRUNKEN BLACK-AND-TANS FIGHT IN BARRACKS 

Q. Mr. Malone: Mr. Witness, did you ever see any fights be- 
tween the Black-and-Tans? 

A. Yes, sir, I did on several occasions. In the barracks where 
I was stationed there were six of them. On two occasions the whole 
six of them turned out of the barracks and went up town and — of 
course they always had plenty of money — and they came back 
stupidly drunk. They were the lowest type of humanity. The first 
order they gave when they got back was to "clear the room." That 
was the day room. They told the sergeant to get out, and he did 
get out. I was supposed to be in charge of the barracks that time, 
and I could not go out. I and another man, Mr. Galvin — 

Q. Who is that? 

A. Mr. Galvin, who is here. After that they got the shotguns 
that were in the racks and loaded them. They did not actually fire 
any shots because I took one of the shotguns away from them and 
Galvin took the other. And they then got the butts of rifles — they 
did not have time to load them. And when they got through I had 



401 

to mop up the blood from the floor of the room. They were fighting 
one another like idiots. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Like what? 

A. Like idiots. They were fighting like wild men, they were 
that drunk. 

Q. Mr. D. F. Malone: Do you know of any fights between Black - 
and-Tans, or between the Black-and-Tans and the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary, which have resulted in the deaths either of Black-and- 
Tans or of R. I. C. ? 

A. Well, I was not a witness to any of them, but I do know of 
one that was actually true — an occurrence in the city of Dublin, 
where one of them, on the pretext of cleaning his rifle, shot the 
sergeant in charge of the station. 

Q. The point I wish to make is that there were fights between 
the R. I. C. and the Black-and-Tans, and fights between the Black- 
and-Tans themselves. 

A. Oh, certainly. The time when the Black-and-Tans came to 
the barracks, the R. I. C. hardly spoke to them. Of course they 
wanted to get information from some of the men. They wanted 
them to point out people and houses and the like. 

REASONS FOR RESIGNING FROM CONSTABULARY 

Q. Will you state when you resigned, and your reasons for 
resigning? 

A. I resigned the first of July. 

Q. When? 

A. 1920, the present year. I sent in my resignation on that date, 
and I was to be discharged on the first of August. I was discharged 
a few days before, on the twenty-fourth of July. 

Q. Why did you resign? 

A. I resigned for many reasons. The main reason was that there 
was nothing left for me to do except to leave the military to butcher. 

Q. When you resigned, how long had you been in the service? 

A. About five years, from October, 1915, to July, 1920. 

Q. When you resigned, that meant that you had to sacrifice 
your pension? 

A. Yes, I had to sacrifice that. 

Q. Is there a pension? 

A. Yes, certainly; you get three-fourths of the annual pay as a 
pension. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: That is all. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was there a rule or an order in Ireland in 



402 

June, 1918, against people assembling together for fairs or public 
gatherings? 

A. In 1918? 

Q. Yes. 

A. In certain parts there was. 

Q. Was there in this place where you and the military authori- 
ties went out to break up the meeting? 

A. Oh, no; there was no order at that time. 

Q. So that there was no apparent violation of law by the people 
advertising that they were to have this meeting? 

A. None whatever. 

BLACK-AND-TANS DISLIKED BY CONSTABULARY 

Q. Chairman Howe: The R. I. C. were almost wholly Irishmen? 

A. Yes, they were, almost all of them. 

Q. Wholly recruited from Ireland? A. Yes. 

Q. The Black-and-Tans were wholly recruited from England? 

A. Yes, every one of them. 

Q. Did the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Black-and-Tans 
fraternize together? Did they associate together in a friendly sort 
of way? 

A. Oh, no; they were roughnecks. 

Q. That was generally true — the R. I. C. had nothing to do with 
the Black-and-Tans? 

A. Oh, I would not say that they had nothing to do with them, 
but that they had no friendship for them, and they had nothing 
more to do with them than necessary. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: That is all. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNA MURPHY 

Mr. D. F. Malone: Mrs. Murphy, please. 

Q. Mrs. Murphy, where were you born? 

A. In New Ross, County Wexford, Ireland. 

Q. What was your education? 

A. In the national schools, sir. 

Q. Did you attend any other than the national schools? 

A. Yes, sir; I went to a boarding school in County Sligo for two 
years. 

Q. Is your husband alive? 

A. Yes, sir. 



403 

Q. Is he an American citizen? 

A. No, sir, he is not, sir. 

Q. When did he first come to this country? 

A. Seven years ago. 

Q. Did you come at that same time? 

A. Four years next February, sir. 

Q. How many children have you? 

A. Just the one, sir. 

Q. Michael? 

A. Yes, Michael. 

Q. Did you visit Ireland during the past year? 

A. Yes, sir, I was a year and three months in Ireland. 

Q. Why did you go to Ireland? 

A. To benefit my health, sir. 

Q. And when you were in Ireland, where did you stay? 

A. At my home in New Ross. 

Q. Are your parents alive? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And did you stay with them? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What kind of a town is New Ross? 

A. A small town. 

Q. An industrial town? 

A. No, sir, a market town. 

Q. A very peaceful and quiet town? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How large is the population? 

A. I don't know. 

Q. When were the troops, the Black-and-Tans, sent to New Ross? 

A. Last Easter, sir. 

Q. That would be 1920? 

A. 1920. 

CHILD SHOT BECAUSE OF NEW CURFEW ORDER 

Q. And when was the curfew law put into effect? 

A. Last August in New Ross, sir. 

Q. And you were there at the time? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you know whether or not any persons were shot for 
violations of the curfew order? 

A. No, sir; not that I know of. 

Q. Do you remember about the killing of the little girl? 



404 

A. She was not killed; she was shot, sir. 

Q. Now, tell the Commission about that. 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Senator Walsh: When did this happen? 

A. That happened about the eighth of September. 

Q. Did you witness it? 

A. I did, sir. The little girl was sent out by her mother on — 

Q. What was her name? 

A. Lillie Furlong. 

Q. How old was she? 

A. About eight. The little girl did not know about the curfew 
law, and the mother sent her out on an errand, and the Black-and- 
Tans called to her to stop. She was so scared that she began to 
run, and they fired, and she was shot in the back. She has been in 
the infirmary since. 

Q. Senator Walsh: She has been where? 

A. In the infirmary. 

Q. Did you know the mother of the child? 

A. I did, sir. 

Q. How did it happen that the mother did not know that there 
was a curfew law? 

A. They were after some boys on the run, but she did not know 
about that. 

Q. But why did she not know about the curfew law? Could she 
not read? 

A. She could, sir. But the curfew law was usually ten o'clock, 
but on this particular night it was nine o'clock, and the mother did 
not know it. They had put it on an hour early because they were 
after these boys on the run. 

ROUGHLY SEARCHED WITH BABE IN ARMS BY 
BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q. Mr. Malone: What other experiences have you had with the 
Black-and-Tans? 

A. About three nights before I left Ireland, I was saying good- 
bye to some friends, and it was about half ten; and I met an officer 
and some Back-and-Tans as I was going home, and they told me to 
put up my hands, and I said I could not, because I could not lay 
the baby down, and they said I must; and I told them I could not 
on account of the baby, but that they could search me, and they did.. 
They tore open my clothes and searched me while I held the baby 
in my arms. And they got through and did not find anything. It 



405 

was about an hour afterwards when I got home. I really don't 
know how I got home. And I was all wet. 

Q. It was raining? A. Yes, it was raining very much. 

Q. I suppose that they searched the baby for firearms? 

A. Oh, yes, they did. They opened his clothes and searched him. 

Q. Were they gentle and considerate about it? 

A. No, sir, they were not. They were very rough, sir, and when 
they got through they pushed me into the door. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Were you on the street? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And they pushed you into what door? 

A. They pushed me into the door of the hardware store. 

Q. Chairman Howe: On the street of the village? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Senator Walsh : About that little girl who was shot, that 
child of eight years: how badly was she injured? 

A. The mother said that she was shot in the spine. 

Q. It was very serious, then? 

A. Yes, sir. The mother said she might be injured for life. 
Q. Chairman Howe: Will you please state your full name, Mrs. 
Murphy? A. Mrs. Anna Murphy. 

Q. And your address? A. 348 West 18th Street, New York. 

BLACK BREAD AND NO MILK FOR BABIES 

Q. Mr. Malone: Mrs. Murphy, can you describe what the condi- 
tions are in Ireland today, as you observed them and know them 
to be, due to the work of the Black-and-Tans and other conditions? 

A. Very hard, sir. The people pay very high prices for food, 
and when they get it they can hardly use it. They can hardly eat 
the bread because it is so hard and black. 

Q. Could you get milk? 

A. No, I could not get milk for the baby. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Could you when you first went there? 

A. No, sir, I could not. At best I could get less than a half a 
pint of milk at night for the baby, sir. 

Q. Is this condition general? 

A. Yes, sir; many of the babies cannot get milk, sir. 

Q. Are any of them sick on account of it? 

A. Yes, many of them are, sir. 

Q. Are there not plenty of cattle in Ireland? 

A. Yes, lots of them, but the people cannot get milk in the 
towns. 



406 

MILK FAMINE IN TOWNS DUE TO DESTRUCTION 
OF CREAMERIES 

Q. Do you know anything about the burning of creameries in 
Ireland? 

A. Yes, sir, I do, sir. There were two burned near us, sir. 

Q. Where? Near your town? 

A. Yes, sir. There was one burned about two and a half miles 
from our town. It was a very fine creamery, built in 1914. 

Q. Senator Walsh: When was it burned? 

A. In Easter of this year. 

Q. Do you know why that creamery was burned? 

A. No, sir; except that they said there was barracks burned 
down near there, and they burned the creamery down. 

Q. As a reprisal? A. Yes, sir, as a reprisal. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Of course, even if the creamery is 
gone, the milk would still be there. 

A. But the milk cannot be got. 

Q. Of course, I can understand why there should be no butter 
and cheese, but there should be milk. 

Q. Mr. Malone: How was the milk delivered there? 

A. It was delivered from the creamery into the town. 

Q. The creamery would be the distributing point? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Commissioner Addams: But the creamery takes the milk and 
makes it into butter and cheese. 

Mr. D. F. Malone: But the creamery does more than that in Ire- 
land. It is a milk distributing center as well. 

Q. There is no doubt that you and the people in the town could 
not get the milk? A. No, sir, we could not get any, sir. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



407 
TESTIMONY OF JOHN JOSEPH CADDAN 

Q. Mr. Malone: Mr. Caddan, what is your full name? 



John Joseph Caddan. 

What is your age? 

Nineteen. 

Nineteen now? 

I was nineteen on the seventeenth of June. 

Where were you born? 

Adare, County Limerick. 

Where are you living now? 

I am living in New York at present. 

Where? 

At 63 West Seventh Avenue. 

Mr. Malone: Are you working in New York now? 

No. 



POLICE NOW TRAINED FOR WAR RATHER THAN 
POLICE DUTIES 

Q. What was the date of your enlistment in the R. I. C? 

A. On the third of February, 1920. 

Q. And where did you go to take your training? 

A. In Phoenix Park Depot, Dublin. 

Q. And what did your training consist of? 

A. Bomb practice, rifle practice, revolver firing — all the latest 
patents in revolvers, automatic and regular. 

Q. Bomb practice? 

A. Bomb practice. 

Q. Rifle practice? 

A. Yes, sir, rifle practice. 

Q. Were you given any police training? 

A. Yes, but the police training was not much. You were not 
compelled to study very much. I was only three months in the 
depot. 

Q. Where were you assigned first? 

A. To Galway. 

Q. What part of Galway? 

A. Galway City. 

Q. When were you assigned to Galway City? 

A. On the twentieth of May, 1920. 



408 

THE SACKING OF TUAM 

Q. What were the conditions in Galway? 

A. Galway City was very quiet until the end of August. The 
first affair that started things was the sacking of Tuam. Galway 
City being the headquarters of the County of Galway, troops had 
to be sent from Galway to the country outside. And then this Tuam 
affair — 

Q. What affair? 

A. The Tuam affair, sir. The men had to go out in motor lorries 
for sacking the town. Two policemen had been shot out there. 1 
was not with them. 

Q. Why were you not with them? 

A. I was on light duty at the time. I had a severe cold, and 
stayed in the barracks. But when they came back, they told all 
about what they had burned. They said they burned public houses, 
and burned the town hall, and made a general wreck of the place. 

Q. Senator Walsh: How large is the town of Tuam? 

A. It is a fairly large size town. There is a cathedral there, 
and the Archbishop of Galway — about three thousand population, 
I think. 

Q. Senator Walsh : Did you see it afterwards — the day after- 
wards? 

A. Not the next day, but a few days afterwards. 

Q. Describe what you first saw when you visited it afterwards. 

A. When I entered Tuam I saw three frame buildings — big 
buildings — public houses, I think they were — nothing standing but 
the walls. The town hall, — the clock was broken out of its place, 
and the town hall was wrecked in general. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was there glass broken in the shop-? 

A. Oh, yes, indeed. 

Q. About how many houses were destroyed? 

A. About a dozen on the whole street. 

Q. Chairman Howe: The main street? 

A. The main street, yes. That is what I saw there. 

Q. Were any people killed at this sacking of Tuam? 

A. No, but there was a man dragged out of bed and threatened 
to be shot, and only for the intervention of the head constable in 
Tuam he would have been shot. 

Q. Mr. Malone: The head constable is a member of the R. I. C? 

A. Yes, he is a member of the R. I. C. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Why did he stop them? 

A. Well, he didn't want to see the man murdered. 



409 

Q. He was still a policeman to preserve law and order? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did he announce that the man had done no wrong? 

A. He did. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Do you remember the case of the man Krumm? 

A. Yes, Krumm was in Galway. 

TUAM WRECKED AS REPRISAL FOR AMBUSH TEN 
MILES DISTANT 

Q. Senator Walsh: Wait a moment. You say that this was due 
to two policemen being shot? 

A. Yes, ambushed. 

Q. Now, how long before this night were these policemen am- 
bushed? 

A. They were ambushed about eleven o'clock at night. 

Q. Eleven o'clock the same night? 

A. Yes. And at about three o'clock the next morning the sack- 
ing began. 

Q. Now, where were these men ambushed? 

A. About ten miles outside of Tuam. I could not say definitely. 

Q. Were these men members of the Royal Irish Constabulary or 
Black-and-Tans? 

A. Members of the R. I. C. 

Q. Did you know them? 

A. No. 

Q. Were they connected with your station? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Were they in Tuam? 

A. Yes, in Tuam? 

Q. Why were these men murdered, and by whom? 

A. I could not say. 

Q. Did you learn since? 

A. No. 

Q. Had they been offensive to the inhabitants of the town? 

A. I was not stationed in that town and could not say. 

Q. You do not know? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Except the fact that there were two killed? 

A. Yes, sir; only that there were two killed. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Was there a coroner's inquest? 

A. No. 

Q. Senator Walsh: They had been done away with at that time? 

A. Yes, they had. 



410 

DRUNKEN BLACK-AND-TAN CAUSES MURDER, 
ARSON AND TERROR IN GALWAY 

Q. Mr. Malone: Tell us about this man Krumm, the Black- 
and-Tan. 

A. Krumm was a Black-and-Tan. The Black-and-Tans are some- 
thing like soldiers. They wear a soldier's uniform with a black 
cap and belt, and that is why they are called Black-and-Tans. This 
man Krumm was one of the Black-and-Tans. He was a motor driver 
stationed in Dunmore, about ten miles outside of Galway. He was 
in town about two weeks getting his motor repaired. 

Q. About two weeks getting a moior repaired? 

A. Yes, sir, about two weeks. He took his time to it. He was a 
generally reckless fellow and drank a lot. I know of one case that 
he shot a sheep and brought him in to the barracks to be cooked. 

Q. You mean that when he got drunk he ran amuck? 

A. Yes, sir; he was very reckless then. This night I saw him 
with a bottle of poteen — 

Q. Mr. Witness, tell us to the best of your ability what that is. 

A. It is what you call mountain dew. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Irish whiskey? 

A. It is made in the mountains out of barley, I think. It is 
pretty strong stuff. Well, I saw him with this bottle of poteen, and 
he was passing it around, and he said that when that bottle was gone 
he would get another. About twelve o'clock he went up to the 
station. 

Q. Was he in police clothes? 

A. No, he was in civilian clothes. He went up to the station 
for one of the papers, the Dublin papers. They usually came in 
on the midnight train. I could not say exactly what happened at 
the station, because I was in bed. 1 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do you know the date of this? 

A. It was about September seventh. 

Q. He was stationed at your barracks? 

A. Yes, sir; he was staying there while he was in town getting 
his motor repaired. The next thing I knew one of the constables 
came" up and gave the alarm, and said one of the constables was 
shot. And we all had to get up and dress and get our carbines. 
There were about fifty men in the barracks, and they ran amuck 
then. 



1 Krumm went to the station, and without provocation whipped out his 
revolver and began firing madly, shooting several persons before he was 
himself shot by a bystander. See evidence of three witnesses, pp. 83-84, 
130-131, 161-162. 



411 

Q. Tell us what they did. 

A. The whole fifty came out in the streets. 

Q. Under their officers? 

A. No officers; they all came out together. There was a D. I. 

there, and he came out with them. 

Q. Who is a D. I.? 

A. The district inspector, District Inspector Crewe. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Was he in uniform? 

A. No, he was in plain clothes. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Were there any Black-and-Tans there? 

A. No, all R. I. C. 

Q. Mr. Malone: You say he was in civilian clothes? 

A. Yes, he was. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they have motor lorries? 

A. No, they were walking. 

Q. What time of night was this? 

A. That was about one o'clock. 

BRODERICKS ORDERED TO REMAIN IN BURNING 

HOUSE 

They went from the barracks up to the house of a man named 
Broderick and knocked at the door, and he opened the door, and 
they demanded his son. A couple of them rushed in and grabbed 
the candle he had in his hand, and went upstairs to get his son. 
The son asked time to dress, and they brought him down. While 
they were upstairs, some other men sprinkled some petrol in the 
parlor and the hall. They marched the son down in front of them, 
and Broderick was told to stand where he was. The mother was 
told to stay in the back room where she was, and Broderick, the 
father, was ordered to stand in the hall. Then they touched a match 
to the house and it flashed up. The women began to scream, and 
they marched the son down to the railroad station to shoot him 
where Krumm had been shot. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Did they leave Broderick and his wife in the 
burning house? 

A. Well, they could not get out through the flames very easily. 

Q. They had put petrol about the house? 

A. Yes, they had. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did they get out? 

A. I was just coming to that. They took the son up toward the 
station, but he got away, and they fired after him, and I think 
wounded him in the leg, but I am not sure of that. He got away. 



412 

And then they turned around and saw a crowd of neighbors trying 
to put out the flames, and they fired into the crowd. After that, 
what they did I did not witness, for I went back to the barracks, 
but I heard the next day — the men were telling about it themselves. 
After that they came to a place where there were two young men 
in a house, and went up and demanded them. I do not know their 
names. 

Q. Two young men in the Broderick house? 
A. No, in another house. They brought these young men down 
to the same place where Krumm was shot and stood them up against 
the wall there. One of the men was named Conway, I think. The 
order was given to fire, and just as the order was given, Conway 
fell forward on his face, and he saved his life miraculously. 

Q. The man fell on his face just as they fired and escaped death? 
A. Yes. Some of them said, "Let them have another volley," 
and the leader said, "No, we have wasted enough ammunition on 
them." 

Q. To come back to this Broderick case. Was the son a member 
of the Irish Republican Army, or was Broderick or his son impli- 
cated in the killing of that man Krumm? 

A. No, I do not think so. They probably knew nothing about 
him, for he was a new man in the town — he was just in there 
temporarily. 

INVESTIGATION AFTER TRAGIC REPRISALS 

Q. Did your police force make any investigation of the killing 
of this man Krumm? 

A. They did, afterwards. 

Q. But not before the killing of this man and the firing of 
Broderick's house? 

A. No, none whatever. 

Q. What happened after this man Krumm left the barracks? 
You said he had been drinking before he left. 

A. Yes. I heard afterwards that he left the barracks and stopped 
for another drink before he went up to the. station. He got up to 
the station platform and while waiting for a paper fired on the 
crowd, killing a man and wounding another. 

Senator Walsh: Yes, we have heard of that incident from other 
witnesses. 



413 

COMMANDING OFFICER OF POLICE COMMITTING 
REPRISALS PROMOTED 

Q. Mr. Malone: Was District Inspector Crewe promoted after 
this? 

A. Yes, he was promoted about a week after this. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You were an eye witness to this? 

A. Yes. I was an eye witness to the setting fire of Broderick's 

house and the firing into the crowd. 

Q. Did you participate in any of it? 

A. No, I did not. 

Q. Was there any officer to lead the military in all this? 

A. No, there was not. 

Q. It was just mob action? 

A. It was just mob action. 

THE MURDER OF QUIRK 

Afterwards they came down to this man's house — Quirk I believe 
was his name — and they went in and told him to come out of bed, 
and did not give him time to dress, and dragged him out and 
brought him down to the quays. 

Q. What are the quays? 

A. The quays, the Galway quays. Galway is a seaside place, 
and the quays run down to the water. They took this man down and 
they stood him up against a lamp post and put twenty-seven shots 
into him. 

Q. Who was this man Quirk? 

A. I believe he was a Sinn Feiner. 

Q. He had nothing to do with the shooting of that Black-and- 
Tan at the station? 

A. Oh, no, of course not. He was home in bed. 

MEN WHO KNOW HOW TO KILL REINFORCE 
CONSTABULARY 

Q. Mr. Malone: Now, I believe there was a general, a British 
general, who came down there. 

A. Yes, the next day there was a British general came down and 
spoke to us in the day room. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Why do you think he was a general? 

A. Because he was so well guarded. He had two motor lorries 
of soldiers there to guard him. He had two other officers with him. 
The county inspector was there and two district inspectors, and all 



414 

the men in the barracks were there. And he started to talk about 
this business. He said, "This country is ruled by gunmen, and they 
must be put down." He talked about giving home rule to Ireland, 
and he said home rule could not be given until all of these gunmen 
were put down, and he called on the R. I. C. to put them down. 
He asked them what they required in the barracks, and that what- 
ever they wanted he would give them, and that they were also going 
to get a raise in pay. And they said they needed machine guns, and 
he said that they would get them, and also tanks and more men — 
men who had been in the army during the war and who knew how 
to shoot to kill; and he said they would be the right men in the 
right place. 

Q. Who spoke for the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. There was a sergeant, I think, who did most of the talking. 
But the men all spoke up and said they needed this and that. 

Q. They needed additional protection? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did they get it? 

A. Yes, there was about two hundred Black-and-Tans sent down 
to that barracks. They got more money than we did, but he prom- 
ised us that we would get a rise in pay. 

Q. Senator Walsh: How much? 

A. Seven shillings a day. 

Q. In addition? 

A. Yes, in addition. 

Q. Chairman Howe: In addition to what they were getting? 

A. Yes, sir; that would be forty-nine shillings a week more — 
about two pound ten. 

LOW CHARACTER OF BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q. Mr. Malone: What was the general character of the Black- 
and-Tans? 

A. Well, they were generally very careless fellows, and did not 
give a hang about what they did. They were mostly over there to 
enjoy themselves. 

Q. The Commissioner: Were they mostly young men? 

A. They were most all young men. 

Q. What was their general character? 

A. Some of them were got up for robbery at the depot — at 
Phoenix Park. And some of them were sent to the lunatic asylum. 
I believe some of them were ex-convicts. 



415 

Q. Senator Walsh: How do you know that, — from what they 
said about each other? 

A. Yes, what they said between themselves. They had sev- 
eral conflicts in the Depot between the Black-and-Tans and the 
Irish troops that were there, but it did not come out. 

Q. Chairman Howe: The Constabulary did not have very 
much respect for the Black-and-Tans? 

A. No, no. 

Q. Did they fraternize with them? 

A. They had a couple of fights there. 

Q. But did they go out together and associate together? 

A. no, they did not associate together. They were not 
friendly by any means. Only, of course, they had to go together 
on duty. 

AGE OF CONSTABLES AND BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q. Commissioner Addams: How old must you be before you 
can become a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A.* At least eighteen. 

Q. Eighteen? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Were many of your men as young as that? 

A. No, I don't believe they were. If your father had served 
on the force you could join at eighteen. If he did not, nineteen 
is the limit. 

Q. How old were most of the men on the force? 
A. They varied greatly. Twenty-five is about the average, 1 
think. 

Q. Senator Walsh: How old are the Black-and-Tans? 

A. Oh, various ages. Some of the Black-and-Tans were up to 
forty. 

Q. How many Black-and-Tans were in the barracks before 
you resigned? 

A. There was only one, Krumm, and he was only there for 
two weeks. 

Q. Senator Walsh: But you say they were promised? 

A. Yes, but they came afterwards. 

Q. So that you have no knowledge of them while you were in 
that barracks? 

A. No, sir. But while I was there they stocked up the can- 
teen in the barracks for their coming. 



416 

GOVERNMENT BAR IN BARRACKS KEEPS MEN 
SODDEN 

Q. Was there a canteen in your barracks? A. Yes. 

Q. When you were on the force? 

A. Yes, when I was on the force. 

Q. Did they always have that in the Irish Constabulary bar- 
racks? A. Oh, no. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was that one of the new munitions of war? 

A. Yes, it was that. 

Q. When did they open up canteens in the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary barracks? 

A. About a year ago. 

Q. So for about a year they have served liquor in the bar- 
racks of the R. I. C? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What kind of liquor? 

A. Lots of liquors. Bass' ale, Guinness' stout, and lots more. 

Q. Were there any restrictions on the amount of it an officer 
could get? 

A. No, no restrictions. They were up there, some of them, 
most of the night drinking. 

Q. Did they drink before going on duty? A. Yes. 

Q. To what extent does that exist throughout Ireland? 

A. I couldn't say, sir, but it was common where I was. 

Q. Who runs this canteen? 

A. It is run by the R. I. C. 

Q. By the permission of the Government? 

A. Yes, by the permission of the Government. 

Q. And I suppose there is some clerk in charge? 

A. There is a constable in charge. He is sitting there at all 
times. 

Q. And there is no limit to what you can buy in quantity or 
quality? 

A. No limit, — no limit at all. Now, the next night after Krumm 
was shot, curfew was enforced in Galway. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Very good, but this is very important. 
You were there in that barracks how long? 

A. About three months. 

Q. You say there were fifty men there? 



417 

A. Yes, fifty men. 

Q. How many of them were drinking men? 

A. 0, the whole lot of them except myself. 

Q. It was a fine atmosphere for a nineteen-year-old boy to go 
into. 

A. Yes, charming. 

Q. And all these men were constantly in touch with a saloon 
in the barracks? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Senator, would you ask the witness if they 
sold what is known as hard liquor in the barracks.'' 

A. The Witness: Hard liquor? They sold all kinds of liquor 
that are sold in Ireland. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is there anything else besides liquor served? 

A. yes, there is bread and crackers and things like that also. 

Q. Now, to just what extent and how continuously were these 
men under the influence of liquor? 

A. Well, during their idle time. Some of them had only four 
hours' duty during the day. The rest of the time they usually had 
liquor in them. 

Q. So that their life consisted of doing their duty on the 
streets of the city and spending their spare time in the liquor 
store in the barracks and in bed? 

A. Yes, and in bed. 

RESIGNED CONSTABLE FLOGGED BY BLACK-AND- 

TANS 

Q. Mr. Malone: After the Tuam affair, do you remember the 
affair of the constable who resigned? 

A. Well, yes, that was out in Tuam. I was not a witness to it. 
This man, his name was Roddy, had resigned in Tuam after the 
town was wrecked, and took a position with the city council. A 
short time after the Black-and-Tans went to his home and got him 
and brought him out to the lime pits near the town, and they 
flogged him. And then some time after they did that, they flogged 
him again, and told him to clear out of the town with his wife and 
family, which he had to do. 

Q. You say he got a job on the city council? 

A. Yes, after he resigned, he got a job on the city council, — 
that is, the Sinn Fein county council. 



418 

REASON FOR RESIGNING FROM CONSTABULARY 

Q. What were the reasons for his resigning from the R. I. C. 

A. Probably about the same as mine. 

Q. What were your reasons for resigning? 

A. Well, I couldn't stop in such surroundings. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What was that? 

A. I didn't fancy the way they were treating the people. 

Q. The work was too dirty for you? 

A. 0, yes. The things they used to be doing, I could take no 
part in them. 

DRINKS AND EXTRA PAY FOR MEN ON RAIDS 

Q. Senator Walsh: You said something about this raid on 
Galway. The curfew was applied? 

A. Yes, the night after the raid the curfew was applied from 
nine o'clock to three in the morning. 

Q. Now, just what does that mean? 

A. Nobody but the military and police could be out from 
9 P. M. to 3 A. M. This night they went out. There was an 
armored car and a military officer and two police from the bar- 
racks; and they went out firing shots, and what they call "clear- 
ing the streets." 

Q. Senator Walsh: That was the first night of the curfew law? 

A. The first night of the curfew law. And when they came 
in they were all treated to a drink by the district inspector. And 
the next night there was the same thing, — they went out firing 
into the streets again. 

Q. This was the Black-and-Tans? 

A. No, the R. I. C. 

Q. Senator Walsh: For the record, how large is the city of 
Galway? 

A. It's a fairly large city, with a population of about ten 
thousand, I think. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What are the Black-and-Tans, — what na- 
tionality? 

A. They are English. 

Q. How about the officers? 

A. They are mostly ex-officers of the English army. They 
come over and get the position of sergeant as Black-and-Tans. 
They get more money than the R. I. C. get. They get something 
like one pound seven a day now. 

Q. Did they get extra money when they went on a raid? 






419 

A. They get extra money when they are called out of the 
barracks. 

Q. In addition to their per diem, they get extra money when 
they go out of the barracks on raids? 

A. Yes, when they go out on raids. 

Q. Mr. Malone: That is overtime? 

A. Yes, overtime. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How did it happen that there was only 
that one Black-and-Tan in the barracks? 

A. Well, he was only in for two weeks to get his motor re- 
paired in Galway. 

Q. What town were you born in? 

A. At Adare, County Limerick. 

Q. How large a town? 

A. I could not tell you. 

Q. Did you spend your childhood there? 

A. Oh, no. I was only about three months there. 

Q. Where did you spend your time up to the time of joining 
the Constabulary? 

A. I lived in Cork City, and went to school in Waterford City. 

Q. Did you travel around Ireland much? 

A. Yes, my father used to be transferred around. 

Q. And what was his position? 

A. He was sergeant. 

Q. In the R. I. C? 

A. In the R. I. C. 

GENERAL CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Q. What was the general condition of Ireland as you went 
around from town to town? 

A. The general condition in Cork was curfew at ten o'clock, 

when you had to be in. 

Q. Senator Walsh: But he means prior to this trouble. 

A. Well, I don't know much about it. 

Q. Mr. Malone: Mr. Witness, will you tell us where you were 

when you joined the R. I. C? 

A. I joined in London. 

Q. What were you doing then? 

A. I had gone to Liverpool and Manchester and London. 

Q. What were you doing? 

A. Looking for work there. 

Q. So you thought you would join your father's profession? 



420 

A. Yes, but I never intended lo stay in it. Just joined to get 
over to Ireland again. 

Q. Senator Walsh: When did you leave Ireland? 

A. I left Ireland on November fifth. 

Q. And when did you resign from the R. I. C? 

A. In September. 

Q. So you were during the month of October and to November 
fifth free? 

A. Yes, free. 

Q. Did you spend that month in Ireland? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you observe conditions in Ireland in other places than 
Galway? 

A. Yes, I was down in Cork for the funeral of the Lord Mayor, 
Lord Mayor MacSwiney. 

Q. Did you remain there up to November fifth? 

A. Yes, I remained there up to November fifth. 

Q. Just what were the conditions in Cork down to November 
fifth? 

A. Curfew was enforced, and you must be in by ten o'clock. 
Then the military would come around in motor lorries about five 
minutes to ten, and anybody who is caught out has not a safe 
chance for his life, because he might be shot on sight. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do they shoot when they come out? 

A. Yes, they generally shoot. 

Q. I suppose that is notice that the curfew law is on? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Malone: What about the Black Thorn house? 

A. Oh, the Black Thorn house was not destroyed in my time 
there. The city hall was destroyed, and the Black Thorn house, 
after my coming away. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



421 
TESTIMONY OF DANIEL GALVIN 

Q. Mr. Malone: Your name is Daniel Galvin? 

A. Yes, Daniel Galvin. 

Q. And your address? 

A. 114 West 102d Street, New York City. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. In Gerryman, County Kerry, Ireland, in December, 1887. 

That would be thirty-three years ago this month. 

THIRTEEN YEARS' SERVICE IN CONSTABULARY 

Q. How long ago did you join the R. I. C? 
* A. I joined the twenty-first of October, 1907. 

Q. When did you resign? 

A. The twenty-first of July last, this year. 

Q. You were then in the service about thirteen years? 

A. Yes, thirteen years, lacking a month or so. 

Q. Where did you get your training? 

A. In Dublin, in the Phoenix Park training school there. 

Q. When? 

A. In 1907. ' 

Q. What did your training consist of there? 

A. Three hours of drill, gymnastics, school, and police duties. 

Q. Where have you served in Ireland in these nearly thirteen 
years ? 

A. I left the Phoenix Training School barracks five months 
after I entered, and was transferred to Gort in County Galway. 
I was there about two months. 

Q. Where did you go from there? 

A. To a station called Tubber in County Galway. 

Q. Where did you go from there? 

A. I remained in Galway until I came on to Tipperary. 1 
spent five years in Galway. I applied to get nearer home. I 
applied for Cork East or Cork West, but I was refused, because it 
was adjoining my native county. And they said that if I wanted 
to go to Tipperary, it would be at my own expense. I applied for 
Tipperary, South Riding, and was transferred in May, 1912. 

Q. Where have you been since then? 

A. I have been in a district called Weyl in County Tipperary. 

Q. Where else were you stationed? 

A. I was stationed at a place in Tipperary called Killaloan that 
is about three miles outside of Clonmel. 

Q. Were you stationed at Clogheen? 



422 

A. Yes, I was at Clogheen about six months before I resigned. 

Q. And at Ballyporeen also? 

A. Yes, Clogheen was my permanent station, but I was sent 
to Ballyporeen, Tipperary. 

Q. Were you in Clogheen while Mr. Crowley was there? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you hear his testimony? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know that all of the testimony he gave is true? 

A. Yes, it is true. I can give you my own version of it. 

ABSOLUTE RELIGIOUS HARMONY IN SOUTH 
IRELAND 

Q. I want to ask you this: in all the years that you have 
served in the R. I. C. in Ireland, what do you know of the rela 
tions between Catholics and Protestants? 

A. As a general rule in the south of Ireland the Protestants are 
the most prosperous people there. In many cases I would rather 
deal with the Protestants than with the Catholics. 

Q. In other words, you have never heard of any differences 
whatever between them? 

A. I have traveled a good deal all over Ireland, south and 
west and east, and in my own native county, County Kerry, and 
I have never heard of any trouble between the people on account 
of any religious differences whatever in those sections. 

REMARKABLE ABSENCE OF CRIME 

Q. What would you say about Ireland as a peaceful country? 

A. It is a very peaceful country, sir. 

Q. Did you have any difficult experiences with the people in 
pursuing your duties as a member of the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. No, sir. Nobody ever made any insulting remark to me in 
all the thirteen years of my service. 

Q. Were there any serious crimes? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Any minor offenses? 

A. Nothing serious. Just petty larceny or something like that. 

Q. Chairman Howe : How many murders did you come in con- 
tact with? 

A. There was just one case in County Galway in the land 
trouble there. That was in 1907. 






423 

Q. Just one case of murder in all your experience? 

A. Yes, that is right, sir. 

Q. How about felonies and serious offenses? 

A. No. Nothing like that. Just petty cases. 

Q. ' What do you mean by petty offenses? 

A. Petty cases like drunkenness. 

Q. How about stealing? 

A. Very, very limited in the country. 

Q. How about burglary? 

A. No, very little. I have never known of any case of burglary 
where I was called upon to act. 

Q. Were there any cases reported to your precinct? 

A. there may be a case of petty larceny, — that is, a case of 
petty larceny like the stealing of tools or picks. 

Q. But of the major crimes, there has been only one case come 
to your attention in thirteen years? 

A. Yes, one case in thirteen years. 

Q. And drunken brawls, — are they frequent? 

A. Not in these days. They used to be in 1910, 1911, or 1913, 
but not nowadays. 

Q. What was there for nine thousand of the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary in Ireland to do if there was no crime? 

A. Well, they are distributed all over the country. There 
were not nearly so many as that there until the last few years. 
I remember only three years ago when there was only three men 
in the station where I was in County Tipperary. 

Q. The town of Tipperary? 

A. No, the County. I was in a small place. 

LITTLE NEED OF A POLICE FORCE TO 
MAINTAIN ORDER 

Q. Chairman Howe: How about the relations of Protestants and 
Catholics? Did they meet in a friendly way? Did they visit one 
another's houses? 

A. I know of a case where the Catholic priest and the Protestant 
minister went out fishing together, and also shooting together. 

Q. When you say shooting together, you mean hunting?, 

A. I mean fowling. 

Q. Do they intermarry? 

A. Not very much. 

Q. But they were friendly with each other? They were neigh- 
borly? 



424 

A. Yes, certainly. One man's gun would be out of order, and 
another man would lend his gun to him. 

Q. They traded at one another's stores, did they? 

A. Yes, indeed. 

Q. In other words, prior to 1918, there was very little dis- 
order? 

A. Yes, and after, and up to the present time there is very 
little need, as far as the people are concerned, of a police force. 

POLICE MILITARIZED AFTER REPUBLICAN 
ELECTION VICTORY 

Q. Mr. Mai one: Now, Mr. Galvin, tell me in what way did 
your duties as a policeman change by orders after the elections 
of 1918? 

A. They were changed until I was simply only a soldier when 
I left the police force. I had to carry arms and bombs and the 
like. I had to have my rifle beside me at nights in bed. We were 
all behind barbed wire, and with thirty or forty bombs used some- 
times at nights from the police station. 

FAIRS, MARKETS, AND PUBLIC ASSEMBLIES 
PROHIBITED 

Q. Where do you date the first disorders in your district? 

A. I remember that in July, 1919 — that was last year — the 
County of Tipperary was proclaimed a prohibited district by the 
Lord Lieutenant. That required an additional force of police. 
That was according to English law then. They transferred police 
or R. I. C. from different portions of Ireland, even from the west 
of Ireland, and from the next counties, to South Riding. Fairs 
and markets and public meetings and assemblies and so forth were 
to be prohibited, although Clogheen and portions of the South 
Riding were very quiet. 

Q. Did the prohibition of fairs and markets interfere with the 
normal life of the people? 

A. yes, very much, because they had no way of selling their 
produce. 



425 

DISRUPTION OF LIFE OF PEOPLE PRECEDES 
DISORDERS 

Q. Was it after the normal life of the people had been dis- 
turbed that the disorders began? 

A. Yes,, it was not until some time in April, 1919, that a hundred 
of the military arrived from Manchester. 

Q. Did you ever know of any attacks by the people on the 
police up to the time you are stating now? 

A. No, not at any place. 

Q. What is your business now? 

A. I am a watchman in New York City. 

REASON FOR RESIGNING FROM CONSTABULARY 

Q. Why did you resign from the R. I. C? 

A. Well, simply because I did not like the system that they 
have at the present time. When I first joined, it was different 
then. I did not have any arms then. Of course, they had arms 
then, but at the same time I never took them out with me on duty, 
the same as I had to do the last seven or eight months. We had 
the arms, but they were simply for show purposes. 

Q. Mr. Malone: In other words, when the R. I. C. was changed 
from a police force into a military force, that was your reason 
for leaving? 

A. That was sufficient. 

Q. Were you not entitled to a pension? 

A. yes, I certainly would have been entitled to a pension 
in two years' more, in fifteen years, if I got out on a medical 
certificate. Or at twenty-five years I would have been entitled to 
one-half of my pay, and two-thirds on thirty years' service. 

ARMED INVASION OF CHURCH SERVICES TO 
INCITE PEOPLE 

Q. Senator Walsh: You were in the station with the young man 
who was here who testified about the order to go to church on 
Sundays? 

A. Yes, I remember that order. 

Q. Did you ever go to church in a squad before? 

A. Yes, I went once. 

Q. Now, was that order compelling men to go armed to church 
for the purpose of showing military authority in the church, or 



426 

was it simply a regulation in regard to each individual's con- 
duct when he went to church? 

A. My belief was that the order was simply to incite the 
people. 

Q. Where did you stand when you went to church? 

A. You were supposed to go up to the altar aisle. 

Q. And two men went up with rifles? 

A. Two men went up with rifles, and two with carbines. 

Q. Where did the other two men stand? 

A. The other two men stood near the door. 

Q. Did you stand during the entire service? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you march behind the people in coming out of the 
church? 

A. I marched behind about fifteen yards. 

Q. After the people went out, did you walk down the center 
aisle of the church? 

A. Yes, the people went out first. 

Q. Was that a general order? 

A. It was a general order for all Ireland, because it came 
from Dublin Castle. 

Q. So that there was at that time and is now as far as you know 
military control over the church during church service? 

A. Yes, sir, that was the general impression of the people there. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Now, if a man was not going to 
church that morning, did they confine some in the barracks? 

A. Yes, half of the party were confined. 

Q. So that every time there was a church service some would 
be there? 

A. Yes, some would remain in the barracks. 

Q. Mr. Malone: About Richards, the Black-and-Tan. 

Senator Walsh: Who was that? 

A. Richards, the Black-and-Tan. 

Q. Senator Walsh: I would also like to ask him about the can- 
teen. Did you have any canteen in the barracks? 

A. There was in the larger cities like Cork and Limerick and 
Galway. Ours was a small barrack. 

Q. You had only a few men in your barracks, so it would not 
pay, I suppose? 

A. Yes, sir. It was an old custom in the large cities. 



427 

BLACK-AND-TANS LICENSED TO SHOOT ANY SINN 
FEINER WITHOUT DISCIPLINE 

Q. Mr. Malone: About the Richards incident. 

A. Well, Crowley and a man named Grady and myself, we were 
sent out on patrol duty with these two Black-and-Tans. We had 
revolvers and Gillette and Richards had carbines. About a mile 
outside of Clogheen there was a man named Walsh, who was sup- 
posed to be in sympathy with the Republican movement, and 
Richards demanded that we show him where Walsh lived. We 
wanted to know what he wanted with Walsh, and he said he was 
going to shoot him. And we refused to show him where Walsh 
lived. And he turned around to us and demanded that we do our 
duty and show him the place. And we reminded him that he was 
not in the army now; he was on the police force. And he said that 
when he left the training depot he was told that he would not be 
subjected to any discipline whatever if he shot any Sinn Feiners. 
He went about ten yards down the road and turned and said he 
would shoot me if I didn't show him where Walsh lived. Then we 
turned back to the barracks. We had not gone far when Richards 
fired at us. When I got back to the barracks with the men, I re- 
ported him to the sergeant, and he said he had committed a felony 
for threatening the lives of three men. He was confined to barracks 
for a few days, and then sent back to England, and then he came 
back to the R. I. C.'s again under an assumed name. 

LOW CHARACTER OF BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q. What is your opinion of the character of the Black-and-Tans 
in Ireland today? 

A. We did not mix with them. We had as little to do with them 
as we could. To a great extent the people know what kind of people 
they are. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 

Chairman Howe : The next hearings are set for next Wednesday, 
in case the witnesses can be secured by that time. If not, the next 
hearings will be held here on Thursday. There are some witnesses 
who are coming from England and are now on the Baltic, and will 
be here by then. We will meet here, unless there is some contrary 
notice in the press, next Wednesday morning at ten o'clock. 

(Thereupon, at 4:10 p. m., the Commission adjourned.) 



THIRD HEARINGS ON CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Before the 

AMERICAN COMMISSION OF INQUIRY ON 
CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Session One 

Jane Addams 1 

James H. Maurer 

Oliver P. Newman 

George W. Norris 

Norman Thomas [ COMMISSIONERS 

David I. Walsh 

L. HOLLINGSWORTH WOOD 

Frederic C. Howe 

Acting Chairman J 

Before the Commission, sitting in the Hotel La Fayette, Wash- 
ington, D. C, Wednesday, December 15, 1920. 

Session called to order by Chairman Howe at 10:05 a. m. 
Chairman Howe: The hearings will please come to order. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS RUTH RUSSELL 

Q. Miss Russell, will you give the Commission your full name 
and address? 

A. Ruth Russell, Chicago, Illinois. 

Q. And you are employed by the Chicago Daily News? 

A. I was employed by the Chicago Daily Neivs when I went 
to Ireland the last time. 

Q. When were you in Ireland? 

A. I was in Ireland from March 16, 1919, to the end of June, 
1919. 

PURPOSE AND EXTENT OF INVESTIGATIONS IN 

IRELAND 

Q. And what was your purpose in going to Ireland? 
A. I was sent to Ireland as foreign correspondent studying 
special economic, social, and political conditions, 

428 



429 

Q. In Ireland or in other countries? 

A. I was sent especially for Ireland. 

Q. Especially for Ireland? A. Yes. 

Q. And what was the general nature of your assignment? 

A. General reporter. 

Q. You were to make a thorough and unbiased study of the 
social and economic conditions of Ireland? A. Yes. 

Q. And report these in special articles for the Chicago Daily 
News? A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Basil M. Manly (of counsel) : Will you tell the Commis- 
sion what parts of Ireland, particularly what important sections, 
you visited? A. I visited Dublin, Cork — 

Q. Suppose you give them in order. 

A. I went first to Dublin, and then to Cork, and then to Lim- 
erick, Belfast, and to Dungloe in Donegal. 

Q. So that you were in all four of the provinces of Ireland and 
in all the important industrial centers? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you also see typical parts of the country districts? 

A. Yes, I was especially familiar with the country districts in 
Donegal, in the northwest of Ireland. 

WAGES AS LOW AS A DOLLAR A WEEK 

Q. What was the method that you used in your investigations 
in Ireland? 

A. I used both interviews and personal experiences. In order 
to get the social conditions in' Dublin, I lived in the Dublin slums 
for a week as a working girl, and tried to find work there. 

Q. Were you able to secure work in Dublin? 

A. There was no factory work to be had in Dublin at all, or 
indeed in any part of Ireland, even in Belfast. But there was 
domestic work to be had. 

Q. What were the prevailing wages in factories at that time for 
the people who were employed? 

A. The best woman's wage in Dublin at that time was paid at a 
large basket factory in Dublin. That ran from $4.50 to $10 a 
week. These were especially good wages. There was a toy factory 
in Dublin which paid as low as one dollar a week to girls. This 
was astonishingly low, in view of the fact that it costs a girl at 
least five dollars a week to live by herself in Dublin, 



430 

Q. So that only girls who could afford to work for those wages, 
or who were living at home and were supported by their parents 
and were virtually undercutting the women workers who had to 
support themselves, could live on that wage? 

A. Yes, yes. 

AN UNSUCCESSFUL RAID 

Q. Were you present in Dublin at the time of the raid on Dublin 
Castle? 

A. I was present there at the time of the raid on the Mansion 
House. 

Q. On the Mansion House, of course. Will you tell what you 
saw at that time? 

A. At the time I was at Madam Gomme MacBride's house, on 
Stephens Green. Her young son, who has since been arrested, I 
believe, came rushing over to the house and told us that the Man- 
sion House was being raided; that the police were searching for 
Michael Collins and Robert Barton. Miss Barton, Robert Barton's 
sister, was in the house at the time. We dashed across Stephens 
Green, and we found a double line of police and constables drawn 
up across Dawson Street, the entrance to the Mansion House Road. 
The soldiers were there with their fixed bayonets. Just beyond the line 
there was a whippet tank, and beyond that there were motor lorries 
for the soldiers that were taking part in it. The American delegates 
were to have a reception at the Mansion House that evening. The 
car with Frank Walsh and President de Valera approached the line 
of the military. The military lowered their bayonets. Frank Walsh 
got out of the car and approached the bayonet line, and went up 
to Lieutenant-Colonel Johnson, of the Dublin military police, and 
he inquired, "What's the row?" The casualness of the question 
must have disarmed the Lieutenant-Colonel, because he started to 
laugh, and after a long conference finally permitted the American 
car to go through. After the order was given, the lorries containing 
the soldiers were taken out through the crowd, amid the booing of 
the people, and the car flying the American and Sinn Fein flags 
entered through the passage, and the reception was held at the 
Mansion House. 

Q. Before this the Mansion House had been raided by the 
troops? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What was the purpose of that raid, as you were told? 

A. The purpose was to find Michael Collins, minister of finance 



431 

of the Irish Republic, and Robert Barton, member of the Irish 
Parliament. 

Q. You were acquainted with Robert Barton's sister, were you 
not? You had met her? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you meet Robert Barton also? 

A. Yes, I met him. 

Q. Is he a Protestant? 

A. Yes, he is a Protestant. 

Q. Was he a British officer? 

A. He was a British officer. 

Q. And reputed to be a very wealthy man? 

A. Yes, he has a beautiful home at Glengariff. 

Q. And he was one of the members of the Sinn Fein Parliament 
elected in the 1918 elections? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you learn anything of the circumstances of the raid? 
Was there a raid made on the private apartments of the Lord 



or 



May 

A. I heard that the raid was rather thoroughly conducted in the 
Lord Mayor's house. Soldiers even penetrated to the bedroom of 
the wife of the Lord Mayor and searched there. But they were not 
successful in finding either Michael Collins or Robert Barton. How- 
ever, both of these turned up at the reception later. 

Q. Had there been any acts on the 'part of the Irish Republic 
as the moving cause of this raid? Had any policeman been shot 
or any soldier been shot? 

A. No. 

Q. They were simply out to arrest these two leaders of the 
Republican government? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Were they also leaders of the Republican army? 

A. Yes. 

Q. But Michael Collins at that time was not a leader of the 
army. He was minister of finance, was he not? 

A. He was minister of finance and captain in the Volunteer 
army. 

Q. Do you know whether Robert Barton has since been arrested? 

A. Yes, I believe that he has, and was sentenced to two or three 
years' imprisonment. I do not know as to that. 



432 

CALIBER OF IRISH REPUBLICAN LEADERS 

Q. You met a number of the leaders of the Republican move- 
ment in Ireland? 

A. Yes, I think I met almost all of them. 

Q. What type of men were they? 

A. They were extremely cool-headed and intelligent. The crowd 
of Sinn Fein leaders that I met at George Russell's — JE.'s — house 
in Dublin were, I think, the most brilliant crowd of people that I 
have met in my life, and as a newspaper person I have mixed in 
at a good many gatherings. 

NO RELIGIOUS BASIS FOR PRESENT TROUBLE 

Q. Were they all Catholics? 

A. No. M — George Russell — is an Ulster man, and Arthur 
Griffith is a Protestant, and a good many others were Protestants. 

Q. Did you form any conclusions through your talking and 
living among the people as to the religious phase of conditions in 
Ireland? Is there a religious basis for the present trouble? 

A. No, I think that the religious feeling has been artificially 
worked up in Ulster. But I think that on account of the unifying 
influence of the labor people in Ulster that this religious feeling 
is rapidly dying down. 

Q. What did you find as to the attitude of the whole people? 

Chairman Howe: I wonder if I could develop this religious ques- 
tion a little further. Did I understand you to say that in your 
opinion the religious feeling had been artificially created? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And does not exist among the common people generally? 

A. I do not say that it doesn't exist in Ulster, but that it is 
rapidly dying down. 

Q. Even in Ulster? 

A. Yes. 

Q. How about the rest of the country? 

A. Well, I think with George Russell that there is not a feeling 
of religious intolerance in the south of Ireland at all. 

Q. Against Protestants? 

A. No. 

Q. As far as you saw, they live peacefully with one another? 

A. Yes. 

Q. There are no rows among them? 

A. No. 



433 

Q. Do they visit with one another and trade with one another? 

A. Yes, certainly. 

Q. Now, compare it with this country. Is there any more re- 
ligious intolerance than there is in this country? 

A. I think not. I think that in some of the southern towns of 
my own state there is more religious intolerance than there is in 
Ireland. 

Q. Does it enter into the elections? 

A. No, not as far as I know. 

Q. Does it enter into the school question? 

A. Yes, it does in Ulster. In Belfast there is a question con- 
cerning the support of the schools; and it is rather difficult to go 
into the whole school topic to explain it, although I can if you 
want me to. But it is a matter of support. The Protestants feel 
that there is not a sufficient amount of money to be had for their 
schools. There are fifteen thousand children in Belfast without 
school accommodations. The arrangement for the money for the 
schools is that some person so disposed in Ireland will build a 
school and the Parliament grant will support it. In Belfast they 
want a different system. But the Catholics feel that their children 
have been fairly well cared for under the present system, and they 
do not want a change. 

Q. There have been a number of people over in this country 
who have been speaking across the country on the Irish question, 
and have been insisting that there can be no home rule in Ireland 
or self-determination in Ireland because underlying everything else 
is the danger of Catholic domination. You know what their argu- 
ment probably is. It has a good deal of currency. What about that 
statement? You would say that it is artificially created? 

A. Yes. I spoke to Francis Joseph Bigger, who is a prominent 
lawyer in Belfast, on that matter. Mr. Bigger is a Protestant. He 
was speaking particularly of the organization of trade. I spoke of 
how much we heard of the religious feeling in Belfast, and he said 
it was mostly talk — that, for instance, you do not find Catholic 
people trading at a Catholic store or Protestant people trading at 
a Protestant store. They go where they find things the cheapest. 

ULSTER RELIGIOUS ISSUE KEPT ALIVE BY 
MILLIONAIRE EMPLOYERS 

Q. We have not been able to get any witnesses from Ulster, and 
since that seems to be one of the Irish issues, if you can throw any 



434 

more light on that, I would be very glad of it. Just how is this 
issue raised? Who keeps it alive, if it is not a real issue? 

A. I spoke to labor people in Belfast. I spoke particularly to 
Dawson Gordon, who is one of the officials of the Textile Workers' 
Federation there. 

Q. Mr. Basil Manly: Is he a Protestant? 

A. Yes, he is a Protestant. And he told me that the religious 
issue, like the political issue, is kept alive by the big millionaires 
in Belfast; that while the workers were kept separated, they were 
not able to organize. He said, for instance, that before the war a 
labor organizer would go into a meeting that was held for the pur- 
poses of organization, and he would begin his speech. He would 
no sooner begin than the crowd would say, "Are you a Unionist?" 
or "Are you a Sinn Feiner?" And he would have to answer. And 
according to his answer, one-half of the people would leave the 
hall. The result was that before the war they had a textile organi- 
zation of only about four hundred members. But during the war 
the high cost of living drove them to organize, and at the end of 
the war there was something like forty thousand members of this 
organization. And since Protestant and Catholic workmen have 
come together and organized themselves, they have doubled their 
wages. For spinners, for instance, the wages were three dollars a 
week; and by organization they have raised them to seven or seven 
and a half dollars a week. He said that labor meetings have taken 
place, some of them in Hibernian halls and some of them in Orange 
halls, without regard to religious differences. He even told of a 
labor parade in a small town outside of Belfast where one-half the 
band was Hibernian and the other half was Orange, and yet there 
was perfect harmony! 

Q. Senator Norris: That means that one-half of them were Cath- 
olic and one-half of them Protestant? 

A. Yes. 

Q. In these meetings where they would ask the labor organizers 
if they were Unionists, that did not imply any religious difference, 
did it? 

A. As a rule that Unionists are Protestants. 

Q. You said that when someone spoke at these meetings called 
for organization purposes, they always asked the question whether 
they were Unionists, and, depending on their answer, about one- 
half of their audience would leave. Now, what I wanted to get at 
is whether there is any religious question involved in that. 

A. Yes. I said that these people would ask from the floor, "Are 



435 

you a Sinn Feiner?" or "Are you a Unionist?" And they would 
also ask, "What is your religion?" 

Q. But I want to find if, when they would ask, "Are you a 
Unionist?" and "Are you a Sinn Feiner?" there is any religious 
line involved in that question. 

A. I think that the Unionist leaders before the war were pretty 
thoroughly Protestant. 

Q. Well, how are they now? 

A. In 1919, I think it was, that the International Labor Confer- 
ence was held in Berne, in Switzerland, and at that conference 
Ulster labor representatives, very mainly Protestants, backed the 
rest of Irish labor in a demand for self-determination. 

ULSTER LABOR ORGANIZATIONS A SOLVENT FOR 
POLITICAL PREJUDICES 

Q. Now, as I understand you in regard to Ulster, the people 
seem to be divided somewhat on the religious issue, and that is 
entering into this controversy that is going on there now. Is that 
right? 

A. It has been an issue. I think it is growing less of an issue 
all the time. 

Q. Now, in what ways is it growing less? Do you mean by that 
that the question as to whether certain persons are Unionists or 
Sinn Feiners is decided upon the religious beliefs of the people, 
or is it in less degree that way now than it was before the war or 
during the war? 

A. Yes, I think people are forgetting their religious prejudices 
through these labor organizations. When they get together they 
find they are not such terrible people after all. 

Q. Is there any other place in Ireland besides Belfast where this 
religious issue is involved? 

A. No, not that I know of. 

Q. How are the people divided numerically? 

A. They are almost half and half. In Ulster the Catholics are 
only a little less than the Protestants. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You mean the whole province as distin- 
guished from the city of Belfast? Excuse me, Senator. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Senator Norris: Now, what kind are Protestants? 

A. The rich mill owners are almost all Protestant Unionists. 
Then there were a great many Protestant laborers. And then the 
mass of the Catholic people were laborers. 



436 

WHY ULSTER FACTORY OWNERS ARE UNIONISTS 

Q. Now, is there any difference in policy on the part of Great 
Britain towards Ulster than towards the balance of Ireland? Why 
is it that the rich factory owners are Unionists? 

A. Their industries have been protected by England. 

Q. That is what I am trying to get at. How have they been 
protected? 

A. I think they have been protected by permitting men like 
Carson to work on the religious prejudices of the people, so that 
the rich mill owners profit by the division of the people, especially 
the laboring people. 

Q. Now, how do they profit? How does that result in a profit 
to the rich mill owners? 

A. So long as the laborers are kept apart, the labor cost of the 
mill owners is very much less, because the laborers are not able to 
ask for higher wages. They have not the strength of organization. 

Q. Then the organization of the laborers decreases the profits of 
the mill owners by getting higher wages? 

A. Yes, yes. 

Q. And as that organization proceeds, the religious issue dis- 
appears? 

A. Yes, it is disappearing. 

FUNDAMENTAL DIVISION NOT RELIGIOUS BUT 
ECONOMIC 

Q. Senator Walsh: May I ask a few questions along that line? 
You have never known a unanimity of opinion upon any great ques- 
tion anywhere in the world? 

A. No. 

Q. And there is not in Ireland today on this question of a 
Republic? 

A. No, but I think there is possibly the greatest unanimity there 
that has ever existed on a great issue in any country of the world. 

Q. Looking towards independence? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now, I want to get this foundation for a correct division of 
the forces in Ireland. Do I gather from your testimony, to sum it 
up, that the movement for a free, independent Ireland is led by 
the liberal-thinking, intellectual forces of Ireland, and that the 
opposition is led by the capitalistic class, supported by such people 
as they can influence along religious lines? Is that a summary of 
the whole situation? Tell us in your own words. 



437 

A. I think that that might be considered a summary of it. 

Q. That is, that the mental, thinking forces, the intellectual 
class that you have spoken of as meeting, have rallied to their 
support the great mass of the people, approaching an overwhelming 
percentage, for independence and self-determination; and opposed 
to them is, first of all, the capitalistic class, plus such forces in the 
north of Ireland as they have been able to rally to their support by 
appeals along religious lines? 

A. Yes, but I would like to add to that that in my opinion it 
would have been impossible for these brilliant young leaders to 
rally the forces in Ireland behind them unless the people were 
driven to revolt by the economic conditions that are pressing into 
them. 

Q. Exactly. But that is one reason why they have been able to 
get the people behind them. 

A. Yes. 

Q. But the leaders are what we call in America the liberals and 
the intellectual class? 

A. Yes; I don't know what you mean by "liberal," but they are 
an extremely intelligent class. 

Q. I mean by liberals intelligent, forward-looking people who 
have no prejudices, who are trying to find sound and fundamental 
notions of life and government. Is that not true? 

A. Yes, that is it. 

Q. Did you find religious differences involved among the Re- 
publican leaders? 

A. No, oh, no. 

Q. Is there any thought of religious differences at all among 
those men and women? 

A. No. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: I was not here at the beginning of 
your testimony. How long ago have you been in Ireland? 

A. I was there from March 16, 1919, to the end of June, 1919. 

Q. This year? 

A. 1919. 

ORGANIZATION OF IRISH LABOR 

Q. In the south of Ireland, where the Catholics are in the great 
majority, perhaps ninety per cent., how did you find the workers 
organized where Catholics were in the majority? Did you find them 
generally organized, or were they about as poorly organized as they 
were in the north of Ireland? 



438 

. A. I think that labor organization is proceeding very rapidly in 
Ireland. The Irish Transport and the General Workers' Unions have 
jumped tremendously, by the tens of thousands, in the last year 
or so. 

Q. Yes. The point I want to get at is this: before you came 
from Ireland, did you find that in the south of Ireland there had 
been a labor movement there prior to your coming to Ireland; and, 
if so, what kind of labor movement was it? Did it have any 
strength? Did it amount to anything? 

A. Before I came to Ireland? 

Q. I mean the history of it. What did it amount to before the 
war began in Europe? 

A. Nothing. I think that before the strike of 1913 in Dublin, 
labor was practically unorganized. 

Q. Yes. They were practically unorganized? 

A. Yes. 

Q. At what part of Ireland was that? 

A. The big strike was at Dublin. 

Q. The religious issue did not seem to be raised in the south of 
Ireland? 

A. No. 

Q. And the Catholics and Protestants seemed to be able to agree 
and get into the same labor unions? 

A. Yes. 

Q. But in the north of Ireland, where the Protestants are in the 
overwhelming majority (perhaps not so overwhelming as the Cath- 
olics are in the south), there was religious difficulty? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now, I am assuming that the Catholics in the south were 
organized prior to and before the northern workers. Is that true? 

A. I think the shipyard workers in Belfast were pretty thor- 
oughly organized first. 

Q. Yes, I understand. But I mean the textile trades. 

A. No, I don't think so. 

WAGES AND STANDARDS OF LIVING 

Q. In your investigation, did you find any difference between 
the wages in the south of Ireland and those in the north? 

A. In the old established organizations like the shipbuilders 
they were getting pretty good wages. I forget just what they earned. 
The wages had increased in Dublin through the Dock Workers; and 



439 

through the Transport Workers they had during the war almost 
doubled. 

Q. That is not the point I am trying to get at. In the north of 
Ireland, where the religious differences are the greatest, were the 
wages in that part of Ireland anywhere near as good or better than 
they were in the south of Ireland, where there was no apparent 
religious difference? 

A. It is very hard to compare the wages in the north and south 
of Ireland, because there is so much factory work in the north. In 
the south the men are employed in farm labor and casual work; 
but in Belfast there is more factory work. 

Q. Yes, yes. So that the textile industry seemed to be located 
mostly in the north of Ireland? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What was the standard of living there in the north of Ireland 
when you were there? 

A. I think, in a way, it was worse than that in the south of 
Ireland, for this reason, that the people were so 'driven by factory 
work that on the streets as you would meet them they would appear 
very thin and underfed. Even the young girls in Belfast do not 
seem to have money enough to dress up, and would wear those black 
shawls over their heads. 

Q. Did you find any particular prejudice against the word 
"labor union" among the people? 

A. No, I did not. 

Q. There did not seem to be any particular prejudice against 
that? 

A. No. 

IRISH LABOR FAVORS INDEPENDENCE 

Q. And those that you did find organized in either the north or 
south of Ireland — you have interviewed a number of those people, 
I suppose? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And what position did those men and women that you did 
meet take on this question of the freedom of Ireland? 

A. They were for self-determination. 

Q. They were for independence, that means? 

A. Yes. That has been shown by their action at the Berne Labor 
Conference. 

Q. Yes, but resolutions adopted at conventions would not mean 



440 

as much to me as the sentiments you would gather by living among 
the people themselves. 

A. Yes. 

Q. You met the rank and file, I suppose. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Protestant men and women? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And you spoke to them about self-determination for Ireland? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And what did they say? 

A. Dawson Gordon told me that the political question would 
absolutely have to be settled before the rise of the unions in Ulster 
could go on and, in his opinion, develop as they ought to. Labor 
therefore stands for the settling of the political question, and be- 
lieves that only self-determination can settle the question. 

Q. They are not afraid that the pope is going to run Ireland, 
then? 

A. No. 

Q. And they think that self-determination alone can settle the 
question? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Just one question. We have had other witnesses here and I 
have asked them the same question that I am asking you. From 
what witnesses we have had before us, it seems that the greatest 
religious differences have been in the north of Ireland, where the 
Protestants measure up pretty strong, or stronger than the Cath- 
olics. Now, in the south of Ireland, where the Catholics are in the 
majority, there does not seem to be much religious difference — so 
much so that Catholics are buried in a Protestant graveyard, and 
that boroughs having a Catholic majority elect Protestant leaders. 
Yet I understand that the living conditions in Belfast have been very 
horrible, wages have been very low, and girls working in water 
up to their ankles. And it seemed to me that these religious differ- 
ences have been raised by employers to keep their employees from 
organizing and raising their standard of living and the like. Now, 
did you get that impression while you were there? 

A. I did. I spoke about that before you came in. 

THE SCHOOL DISPUTE IN ULSTER 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I would like to ask a question about 
the public schools in Ireland. The buildings are not erected by 
public funds? 



441 

A. Partly. I have forgotten the exact arrangement, but it was 
something like this: a person who desired to erect a school could 
build it and equip it at his own expense, and then it was run by a 
parliamentary grant. I haven't thought or written about that ques- 
tion lately, but I could look it up, of course. 

Q. The parish schools were already built, and the Catholic- 
population did not wish to be taxed by the school boards because 
they had their parish schools, as I understand it. This educational 
issue is a strong issue in Ulster between Catholics and Protestants, 
is it not? 

A. Yes. 

Q. If we could gather the point of difference there, it might be 
illuminating. Or did you gather that material? 

A. I have that material exactly in a pamphlet by the Vice-Regal 
Commission on Education. I have it here, and can leave it with 
the Commission. 

Q. But the point is that the Catholic population already have 
their parish schools, and do not wish to be taxed for the maintenance 
of board schools. Is that it? 

A. Not exactly. The schools, as I understand it, have been 
erected by individual benefactors or by the expense of the pastorate, 
Protestant or Catholic. And the Catholics in Ulster believe that 
they have been fairly well taken care of under this system, and that 
the arrangement in the grant would make an extra expense for 
them; and they believe that they would be paying, then, some of 
the expenses for other schools; and they believe that they are al- 
ready sufficiently taxed. 

Q. That is what I meant. It would be double taxation. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Senator Norris: But what about the Protestant schools there? 
Are they paid for out of public funds? 

A. Well, the parliamentary grant goes to them as well as to the 
Catholic schools. 

Q. That is what I wanted to get at. Is there any discrimination 
about the Catholics and the Protestants in the schools? 

A. No, not that I have heard about. I don't think there is any 
legal discrimination. 

Q. Is there any discrimination in administration? 
A. No, not that I have heard of. 

Q. Can Catholic children go to Protestant schools and Protestant 
children go to Catholic schools? 
A. Yes, they can. 



442 

Q. Now, as I understand it, part of the money is paid by the 
public funds and part from the churches. 

A. Yes. 

Q. They both get support from public funds? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know how the public funds are divided? Is it in 
proportion to the number of population? 

A. Yes, it is in proportion to the number of population. 

Q. Is there any claim on the part of the Catholics that the 
Protestants are getting too much from the public funds already, or 
any feeling on the part of the Protestants that the Catholics are 
getting too much? 

A. I have not heard anything about that, but the Catholics think 
that under the new arrangement they would be paying too much 
in taxes. 

Q. What is that new arrangement? 

A. It has been a long time since I have written anything on 
that, and the details have escaped me. 

Q. Major Newman: But they think that under the new arrange- 
ment there would be a discrimination, and that the Catholics would 
be paying too much for their education? 

A. That is what they believe. 

Q. What opinion did you come to? 

A. I don't remember forming any definite conclusion. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: As I understand it, Miss Russell, 
the Protestants want public schools, while the Catholics are holding 
on to the idea of parish schools. The real difference is between two 
theories of education. It is not a matter of funds so much. The 
Catholics are objecting because they would be taxed for a public 
school system when they want their parish schools. Is that not it? 

A. I did not hear the matter explained that way when I was 
there. But it is very possible. 

Commissioner Addams: Of course, the financial question is im- 
plicit in it. 

ECONOMIC CLEAVAGE UNDERLIES POLITICAL 
AND RELIGIOUS ISSUES 

Q. Major Newman: Miss Russell, I want to ask you about the 
question of labor's attitude towards self-determination. Did you 
get any data on which you could form an opinion about the attitude 
of Protestant workers or labor leaders towards self-determination? 



443 

A. Protestant labor was for self-determination as far as I could 
make out from my conversations with Protestant labor leaders. 

Q. You talked with Protestant labor leaders? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And Protestant labor leaders were for self-determination? 

A. Yes. Dawson Gordon was for self-determination. 

Q. You are speaking now of Ulster? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is there underlying the Irish question, then, 
a line of economic cleavage that is responsible for the opposition 
to self-determination by one class and the support of it by another? 
Is there an economic issue there, then, as well as a political issue? 

A. Yes, I think so. 

Q. Do you think that is a dominant issue, then, or a subordinate 
issue? What influences the majority in the House of Lords and 
the large majority in the House of Commons? Is that economic, 
political, or religious? 

A. Your first question was whether there was an economic cleav- 
age in Ireland? 

Q. Whether you could explain the Irish question on economic 
terms rather than on political terms? 

A. Yes. And you also asked if it was subordinate to the politi- 
cal question? 

Q. Yes. When Ireland was alien-owned by alien landlords, it 
was easy enough to understand that English landlords would oppose 
self-determination for Ireland because Ireland might then impair 
the value of their property, because Ireland could tax it or levy 
upon it, or do anything with it. But today I understand that between 
sixty and seventy per cent, of the land is owned by the Irish peas- 
ants. But the English landlords who are left might still fear self- 
determination because their estates would be broken up. 

A. Yes. 

Q. How about the commercial class — the banking class? 
A. There are ninety-six stock banks in Ireland. I think that six 
out of nine are controlled in England. 

Q. So that English bankers might oppose self-determination in 
the banking interests? 
A. Yes. 

Q. How about the big shipbuilders, or Harlan & Wolff — that is a 
Belfast firm, a Unionist firm, is it not? 
A. I do not know. 



444 

Q. But the shipping interests are English, are they not, rather 
than Irish? 
A. Yes. 

DISCRIMINATION AGAINST IRISH MERCHANTS 
AND FARMERS 

Q. And the jobbers or wholesalers or speculators who control 
Irish products, are they Irishmen in Belfast or are they not? 

A. They are mostly English or pro-English Irishmen, according 
to the statement made to me by Dennis MacCullough, who is a piano 
merchant in Belfast. He spoke of the difficulties that he had to 
encounter in his business because of the discrimination in his busi- 
ness against Irishmen. 

Q. Because of the discrimination by whom? 

A. He said, for instance, that he found it difficult to get store 
space from English landlords. 

Q. Major Newman: Did he say anything about banking accom- 
modations? 

A. He did not say anything to me about that, but Professor 
Smith, of the University of Cork, told me that the Irish borrowers 
from the English-controlled Irish banks were charged one per cent, 
more interest than English borrowers from English banks. Aside 
from that — 

Q. Just a moment before you leave that. Did he give any basis, 
any reason for that? Is it merely because they are Irish, or is it 
because of some actual economic basis? 

A. He said, as I remember it, that on account of the conditions 
of the country, money was made dearer there because the risk in 
giving it out was greater. 

Senator Norris: You were just finishing up when you were inter- 
rupted for something else. 

The Witness: Yes, I was going to tell about the Irish Agricultural 
Organization Society, that spoke about the difficulty the farmers 
especially had in getting money. On that point, in a little pamphlet 
called "Crop Credit," the Society says: "It is rarely that the joint 
stock banks will lend the small sums that the farmers require at 
less than ten per cent, interest deducted beforehand. Then there is 
the cost of postage or traveling expense if the applicant does not 
live near a bank. Again, the bank does not lend to the farmer for 
a period that enables him to make a profit out of his loan; and a 
loan that is made to mature too soon often cripples the borrower 
rather than be of any assistance to him. But even then it is im- 



445 

possible to secure a loan in many cases, and the farmer is compelled 
to inquire elsewhere." 

To overcome that difficulty, the Society has established about a 
hundred cooperative banks in Ireland. 

Mr. Basil Manly: Are there any other questions by the Com- 
mission? 

A PARALLEL IN THE PHILIPPINES 

Q. Chairman Howe: I would like to draw a parallel if I can. 
Last week there was a gentleman here who had been in the Philip- 
pines for a time. He said it was not possible to discuss inde- 
pendence for the Philippines in the clubs in the Philippines where 
Americans were — Americans who had interests there, who were 
buying and selling; that the hostility to Philippine independence 
sprang very largely from the Americans there who were exploiting 
the Philippines. He named various kinds of business and commer- 
cial interests there that were exploiting the Philippines. We have 
not been in the Philippines very long, but in that time the exploiting 
interests seem to have gained such power that they can oppose the 
independence of that country. At the same time, this same kind of 
interests might be back of the opposition to independence for Ire- 
land. Have you any facts on that point? 

SUPPRESSION OF IRISH INDUSTRY BY ENGLISH 
GOVERNMENT 

A. I think that Irish industry has been suppressed there for the 
benefit of English industry, and during the war I have a specific 
case where industry was suppressed for the benefit of the box con- 
tractors in Liverpool. Would you like that case? 

Senator Norris: Yes, give us that. 

The Witness: I spoke to Edward Riordan, who is secretary of the 
Irish Industrial Development Association. It is an association of 
which the Earl of Carrick, Sir Nugent Everard, the Countess of 
Dessart, and other non-Sinn Feiners are executive members. Mr. 
Riordan said that for the first two years of the war Ireland was 
able to get no war supply contracts from England. Then in 1916 
a very representative committee of all Ireland called upon Lloyd 
George, who was then minister of munitions, and Lloyd George 
said to them (I quote exactly from Mr. Riordan) : "It is fair that 
Ireland, contributing as she does not only in money, but in flesh 
and blood, should have her fair share of expenditures." After that 



446 

committee had called on Lloyd George, Ireland was given five small 
national plants. The insignificance of these can be seen from the 
fact that when the armistice was declared, there was a little over 
two thousand Irish persons working in them. 

Some private contractors have been able to get contracts from 
England, and one of these was a box contractor. Mr. Riordan said 
that, unlike the English firms, the Irish firms received no money 
advances and no machinery, but took contracts at competitive prices, 
and had no guarantee that these contracts would be continued. 
When the box contracts had expired, the All Ireland Committee 
went to the chief of the Box Commission in London, and the min- 
ister told them that the Commission did not care whether they got 
any more boxes made in Ireland; that the box manufacturers in 
Liverpool had come to them and said that they wanted no more 
imported boxes; that they could make all the boxes that were neces- 
sary; that they wanted only timber for case boards, either dried 
or undried; and that they would then get the manufacture of all 
necessary boxes carried out in England. Mr. Riordan wrote an 
article on the subject, which is published in Studies, a Dublin maga- 
zine, for June, 1918. It contains that complete box-contract story. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You say, in other words, that when 
Great Britain was in America buying supplies by the hundreds of 
millions of dollars worth, that she just gave contracts to Ireland 
enough to employ about two thousand people, which in America 
would not make a decent size village, even in war time? And 
therefore Ireland is not supposed to develop industrially? 

A. Yes, that is it. 

Q. Do you know anything about the mines in Ireland? To 
what extent are they developed? 

A. Mr. Riordan spoke about three of the principal mines ii 
Ireland. He said that until the war these mines did not even 
have railroad connections; that the ancient method of carting coal 
on donkey-carts from the mouth of the mines was still taking place 
in two of the mines. During the war, however, there was a spur 
built to the mines in Kilkenny. 

Q. Have you any idea of how many men are employed in and 
about the mines in Ireland? 

A. No, I have no idea. 

Q. Well, have you any idea as to the deposits of coal in Ireland? 

A. In 1881 there was an estimate made by Professor Hall which 
placed the net tonnage at one hundred eighty-one million tons, I 
believe. I could find the exact figures for you. 



447 

C\ Do you know anything about the grade of coal that they 
have in Ireland? 

A. The grade of coal is not as good as that which is obtained 
in Wales, but it is still quite usable. 

Q. So that your conception of the mining situation is that the 
mines of Ireland have not been developed, have not been scratched 
yet, have been simply left to lie undeveloped? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And when that is the situation, they are importing coal from 
America, when across the channel they have millions of tons of coal 
that could be had much more easily, but they do not take it. It 
seems, therefore, that there is a desire to prevent Ireland from de- 
veloping as an industrial nation. Is that the conclusion that you 
come to? 

A. Yes, that is the conclusion that I have come to. 

Q. Senator Norris: Who owns those mines you spoke of? 

A. I know that of those mines near Kilkenny, the Countess 
Dessart is one of the owners. 

Q. Mr. Manly: You said she is not a Republican. 

A. No. 

Senator Walsh: Will you go on, Mr. Manly, and finish the 
testimony? 

NON-APPLICATION OF MINIMUM WAGE LAW 
PERMITS WRETCHED WAGES 

Q. Mr. Manly: Miss Russell, what are the facts about the mini- 
mum wage law? Is there a difference between its application in 
England and in Ireland, or does the minimum wage law apply to 
Ireland at all? 

A. I would like to contrast the wages there. In Belfast the 
women who take embroidery, for instance, into their homes from 
the linen mills get, I was told by Mollie Donovan, one of the trades 
union organizers, from Si. 25 to $1.50 a week by steady working. 
In 1915 the Ministry of Labor in Great Britain passed a rule, a 
statutory rule, Order No. 357, which said that a girl of eighteen 
working a six-day week and eight hours a day should be paid at 
east $6.72 a week. There was a postscript to this rule which said 
that this rule shall apply to all parts of Great Britain but not to 
Ireland. I have that ruling order among the documents I have 
with me now. 



448 

"COW LOTS" CAUSE EMIGRATION, UNEMPLOY- 
MENT, AND CHEAP LABOR 

Q. You were up at Donegal, in the country, where the coopera- 
tives have been developed, were vou not? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What was the reason, as you learned it, for the development 
of the cooperatives in that section of the country? 

A. In that particular section a great deal of emigration has 
taken place, on account of the change of the country from tillage to 
cattle-raising. And when a great many people were thrown out 
of jobs there, it was necessary for them to emigrate. And until 
the establishment of the cooperatives there, there were a great many 
Irish boys and girls who had to go either to America or migrate 
annually to the English and Scotch harvests. By the establishment 
of the cooperatives there, not only the cooperative store but the 
cooperative bank and especially the cooperative knitting mill, a 
great many of the young people were enabled to stay at home. 
During the war there were about four hundred girls employed in 
the cooperative knitting factory there. 

Q. And these cooperative enterprises are owned by the people 
of that particular locality? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know, in round figures, about how many Irish boys 
and women do go over to England for the harvest season? 

A. I was told by Secretary Campbell of the Ministry of Labor 
that there was an annual migration of about fifty thousand Irish 
boys and girls over to that harvest. 

Q. Do you know how long that harvest season lasts? 

A. No, I don't know. 

Q. Do you know whether they go over for the entire growing 
and harvesting season, or whether it is just for a short season? 

A. My opinion is that they go over for about six months of the 
year. 

Q. And that is caused by the fact that in Ireland the country 
has become primarily a grazing and dairying country? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And that there is not land enough developed to keep them in 
Ireland; that these Irish boys and girls go over to help harvest 
England's crops because they cannot get work at home? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You have prepared notes, have you not, Miss Russell, on 
some of these questions? 



449 

A. Yes. 

Q. Would you briefly give some of these points to the Com- 
mission? 

A. Yes, I think. I could, Mr. Manly. The first point was in 
regard to the change of the country from a tilled country to a 
grazing country. This, according to Arthur Griffith, who is the 
economist of the Sinn Fein movement — 

Q. You met Arthur Griffith, did you not? 

A. Yes, I did, Mr. Manly. 

Q. What sort of man is he — a scholarly man? 

A. Yes, he is a very scholarly, reserved, almost taciturn man. 

Q. How old is he, would you judge? 

A. He is in the forties, I would say. 

Q. Did he impress you as being a man of ability? 

A. Yes, sir; of very great ability. 

Q. A man qualified, you would say, to act as an executive of 
one of our states? 

A. Yes, I think that he is. 

Q. He is fully of that caliber? 

A. Yes, he is distinctly of the executive type. 

Q. I just wanted to bring out your knowledge of him. Proceed, 
please. 

A. Mr. Griffith said that at the meeting of the Irish Parliament, 
which was called for the American delegation, it was brought out 
that the principal method by which Irish industries had been sup- 
pressed during the nineteenth century was the changing of the coun- 
try from a tillage country to a grazing country. He said that 
during the nineteenth century England wanted a cheap meat supply- 
center, and there was not room enough on her island for grazing, 
so she made it more profitable for the large landowners of Ireland 
to raise cattle than crops. Accordingly the large landowners turned 
their entire estates into large cow lots. And as there was very little 
labor needed to herd cattle, and very little labor needed in side 
industries, because the cattle were and still are exported on the 
hoof, millions of people were thrwon out of employment. 

Q. And that is the fundamental reason for the bad living and 
working conditions that you found in Ireland? 

A. Yes. Then the point of the suppression of industries during 
the war. 

Mr. Manly: You touched on that. I think we might pass over 
that. 

The Witness: Yes. And also the banking restrictions. 



450 

DEPOPULATION OF IRELAND WORSE THAN THAT 
OF OTHER SUPPRESSED NATIONS 

The result of the suppression of industries is that the individual 
person in Ireland much choose between emigration and low wages 
in Ireland. While I was in Ireland, Nationality, a Sinn Fein paper 
which has since been suppressed, published census statistics which 
showed the depopulation of Ireland. They showed that from 1841 
to 1911, the population of Ireland fell from 8,000,000 to 4,300,000. 
It also gave the decrease by counties, and some of the counties lost 
more than 60 per cent, of their population. In Nationality there 
was also a comparison of the population in other suppressed na- 
tions, none of which has suffered as has Ireland. There was a com- 
parison with Prussian Poland. Seventy years ago Prussian Poland 
had only half of Ireland's population. Today it has three times 
the popuation. 1 

STARVATION WAGES 

I spoke of the low wages that it was necessary for women to take 
when they could get factory jobs. But I did not speak of the low 
wages that they were forced to take as domestics. 

Q. What were the prevailing wages for domestics that you found 
over there? 

A. Well, one night in a night refuge in Court Street I picked 
two possible advertisements from one of the newspapers and asked 
my companions at the table which one of them to take. One of 
them was for a general housework girl to live with the family at 
$50 a year. The other ran : "Wanted — a strong, humble housework 
girl, to live out, $1.50 a week." 

Q. Senator Walsh: This was in 1919? 

A. Yes, in 1919. The married women must earn money enough 
to make up the family budget. Lionel Smith-Gordon of Plunkett 
House made an investigation in 1917, an investigation which was 
published in pamphlet form and called "Starvation in Dublin." 
The pamphlet was not permitted to go out of the British Isles. In 
that pamphlet he said that the annual wage of an unorganized un- 
skilled worker was about $260 a year, and the wage of organized 
unskilled workers was about $367. But he made the point that to 
keep an average family of five just going on food alone cost $370. 
There is a deficit to make up even when work is not slack. And 
it is the women who meet that deficit. 



1 See index : Ireland, population. 



451 

Q. That means that the wives and daughters must go to work 
in order to keep the family above the starvation line? 

A. Yes. For instance, when I was staying one night in the 
dockers' quarters with a widow in one of the typical one-room tene- 
ments near the River Liffey in Dublin, the sister-in-law of the widow 
came into the house early in the morning and told her that her man 
had been out of work for four days, and she wanted to know if 
the widow could keep the child out of the grate that day, because 
she had to go out washing. In the same building there was a 
twenty-year-old girl with a little blind baby, who said that her hus- 
band had not given her a farthing for a fortnight, and that she was 
getting food for the baby from her mother. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was this incident due to dissipation or was 
it due to economic conditions? 

A. It was due to economic conditions. This was in the dockers' 
quarter, and conditions there are very bad. 

Q. Is that a common situation? 

A. Yes, it is. There is very little river traffic on the Liffey now. 
During the war there were many boats taking timber back and forth 
from Ireland over to England, so that the times were better for the 
dockers than they were after the war. 

ONE-ROOM TENEMENTS AND A DIET OF BREAD 

AND TEA 

Q. How many of these families live in these one-room quarters? 

A. In Dublin there were twenty-five thousand families living in 
one-room tenements. 

Q. Twenty-five thousand families? 

A. Yes. The proportion of those in Dublin living more than 
two in a room is higher than that of any other city in the British 
Isles. It is more than twice the proportion in London. I have here 
a government report which says: "With regard to the number of 
people housed in one-room dwellings, Dublin heads the list with 
33.9 per cent, compared to London with 13.4 per cent. Edinburgh 
comes next with 21.9 per cent, and Glasgow next with 20 per cent." 

Q. Mr. Manly: I think that perhaps the twenty-five thousand 
families you mentioned is just a slip of the memory. Have you 
your notes there? 

A. No. George Russell told me that. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What is the population of Dublin? 

A. About four hundred thousand. 



452 

Q. Commissioner Addams: How many people in an average 
family in Dublin? 

A. I did not say, Miss Addams. But I said that the proportion 
of those living two or more to a room in Dublin was more than 
twice as much as the proportion living two or more to a room in 
London. 

Commissioner Addams : Thank you. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do I understand you to tell me that it is not 
an uncommon condition for a family of mother and father and 
daughters and sons to live all in one room? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know that even in the island tribes of the South Sea 
Islands the boys and girls, when they reach majority, are, out of a 
sense of modesty, housed away from their parents? 

A. No, I didn't know that. 

Q. And yet you mean to tell me that in Dublin grown-up boys 
and girls sleep and live in that one room with their parents, and 
work out their lives there? 

A. Yes. And yet the report that I will leave with the Commis- 
sion shows that disease due to immorality is astonishingly low in 
Ireland. 

Q. Is that due to their religious convictions? 

A. Yes, perhaps. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: The proportion of those living in 
one-room tenements in Glasgow is also very high, isn't it? 

A. Yes, it is; but Dublin is worse than any other city in the 
British Isles, according to the figures given in this "Emergency Re- 
port on Housing Conditions in Dublin." 

Chairman Howe: Well, suppose you just give that to the 
stenographer, Miss Russell. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Would you want to make a comparison be- 
tween living conditions in Irish cities — Dublin, Belfast, and Cork — 
with our cities here? 

A. Well, the difference, I should say, is that there is more of 
hopefulness in an American city — more hope of work than there 
is in an Irish city. 

Q. Mr. Manly: You investigated the packing-house district in 
Chicago, did you not, not so long ago— about 1918, did you not? 

A. No. I was present at the stockyard hearings. But I made 
some budgets of the people in the Italian district and elsewhere in 
Chicago. 

Q. Well, how did the conditions in the Italian district in Chi- 



cago — the general living and housing conditions — compare with the 
conditions in Dublin and Cork? 

A. Well, I didn't meet any families in my budget investigations 
that were living in one room. 

Q. And that was a common condition, however, in Dublin? 

A. Yes. And I did not meet any people who were living prin- 
cipally on bread and tea, and I did meet those in Dublin. 

Q. Their sole diet was bread and tea? 

A. Yes; all they had while I was staying in the dockers' quarter 
was bread and tea and jam. I think there is a very significant 
statement about the diet of the Irish people in a report of the 
charitable organization called the Saint Vincent de Paul in Dublin. 
In the pamphlet called "The Poor in Dublin," they have this sen- 
tence: "A widow who, after paying the rent of her room, has even 
a shilling a day to feed two or three or more children, is considered 
a doubtful case by the Society. Yet shilling a day will give the 
family only bread and tea and maybe a few potatoes. Possibly a 
little oleomargarine may be purchased, but under no circumstances 
can the family be said to have sufficient food." 

Q. Mr. Manly: This means, if they are a doubtful case, that they 
will not get charitable relief? 

A. Yes. 

POVERTY OF THE PEASANTS 

Q. Chairman Howe: Compare that with the conditions of the 
farmers in Ireland; the standard of living in the west of Ireland, 
where it is difficult to make a good return because of the lack of 
fertility of the soil. 

A. The one-room cabin prevails throughout the poorer agricul- 
tural districts of western Ireland. In Sligo these cabins are made 
often of mud, sometimes with a barrel for a chimney. In Donegal, 
with which I am more familiar, the one-room cabin also prevails. 
Sometimes there is a room in the rear where there is a loom for 
the manufacture of tweed. 

Q. That is the domestic industry there — the manufacture of 
tweed? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Would you say that is the situation of the typical Irish 
peasant? 

A. Yes, I would sav that the most of them are like that. 



454 

Q. It is true that two-thirds of Ireland has passed from land- 
lordism to peasant ownership; and it is still as bad as that? 

A. Yes. The peasant laborers sell their labor in what is called 
the hiring fair, at which cattle and horses are sold. These men 
stand in a pen and offer their services for as low as one hundred 
dollars a year. Their employers are also the landlords, and if they 
ask for a rise in wages, their employers can evict them. That hap- 
pened while I was there. 

Q. So that there has not been the improvement in rural condi- 
tions in Ireland that we have been led to believe following the 
Gladstone and the Wyndham Acts? 

A. No. During the war there was a great increase in agricul- 
tural acreage and prosperity. The profits of the farmers did in- 
crease, as the bank returns show. But according to the statistics 
of Professor Smith, of Cork University, in Ireland this post-war 
prosperity would last only about two post-war years, because by 
that time England would have re-established her former agricultural 
trade relations. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Are there any further points you want to make, 
Miss Russell? 

EFFECT OF POVERTY ON HEALTH, VITALITY, 
SANITY, AND LITERACY 

A. There was just the point on health, and that is all. When 
I was in Dublin I went to the lunacy department in Dublin Castle. 
I was given a great deal of material on lunacy in Ireland, and in 
one of the pamphlets there was a comment on the fact that the 
Irish in America contributed the highest proportion of foreign-born 
to American insane asylums, and there was a comment on this fact 
which ran: "As to why this should be, we can offer no reasoned 
explanation. But just as the Irish famine was, apart from its direct 
effects, responsible for so much physical and mental distress in the 
country, so it would seem not improbable that the unnutritious 
dietary of the majority of the population of the country, when act- 
ing over many generations, has acted on the nervous system, and in 
this way has developed those neuropathic and psychopathic tenden- 
cies which are the precursors of .insanity." 

In regard to tuberculosis, I was given a good deal of material by 
Sir William Thompson, Registrar for Ireland, who showed me that, 
according to the pre-war chart, Ireland stood among those countries 
of Europe which had the greatest amount of tuberculosis. She was 
fourth on the mortality list, being exceeded only by Austria, Hun- 



455 

gary, and Serbia. During the war her mortality was very high. It 
jumped from 9,387 per hundred thousand in 1913 to 9,680 in 1917. 

The low vitality in Ireland results in a low birth rate. Contrary 
to what is generally expected, the birth rate in Ireland is not high. 
Compared with Scotland, for instance, the birth rate from 1907 
to 1916 for Scotland in average number of babies to every thousand 
people was 29.5 per cent., while for Ireland it was 22.8 per cent. 

Dublin has suffered a very alarming increase in death rate, which 
is noted in the newspaper material that I am leaving with the 
Commission with the rest of my material. 

Poverty and low vitality also results in insanity. It also means 
illiteracy, for a good many children have to go to work rather than 
to school. H. C. Ferguson, head of the Charity Organization Society 
in Dublin, says that in Ireland 60 per cent, of the children below 
the age of fourteen and able to work are at work. In Scotland, 
which has virtually the same population as Ireland, there are onlv 
37,500 children employed. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Do not they have the same child- 
labor laws in Ireland as in the United Kingdom? 

A. No. There was an Irish Education Act passed in 1872, and 
this permits many exceptions. Education is not compulsory in Ire- 
land if a child can be put to work. 

A DAY'S MARAUDING BY BLACK-AND-TANS 

Senator Walsh: I must suspend now, for I must leave, but before 
I go I would like to read into the record a letter which I have just 
received from Reverend George F. Marshall, of North Wallingford, 
Massachusetts : 

"Dear Sir: A letter received from Ireland a few days ago is 
responsible for my corresponding with you now. The letter was 
written on November 22nd. The inclosed is part of the letter. I 
have made no change in punctuation or spelling. It came from no 
solicitation on my part. I know that the writer is an absolutely 
reliable person. He says that people going along the roads hear 
the order to halt. If you stand you will be beaten brutally. If 
you run, you will be shot. This means that a lot of Black-and- 
Tans scour the country roads on raiding parties. Their victims 
are chiefly people whom they meet or overtake on the roads. 

"The following is from a letter written from Ireland dated No- 
vember 22, 1920: 'The country is in an awful state at present. I 
will give you one day's work of the force that is known as the 
Black-and-Tans. On the week before last they left Tralee and came 



456 

by Ballyfinnane and beat everybody at the creamery most brutally; 
went on to Fieries and burned Champion Sullivan's hay shed, on to 
Farranfore and burned the hotel to the ground, then to Ballyhar 
and Currans and burned three farm houses and hay sheds. On 
their return burned Mike Kelleher's hay shed at Glanbane. Shot 
young Sughreel working at the railway. Shot every donkey they 
met dead, and carried off all the fowl they met and Katy Lynch's 
five geese. Went on to Farmers Bridge and at the old school took 
young Hoffman out of his car and shot him dead on the road. That 
is one day's work. Since then there is two shot in Ballymacelligott 
and several wounded. On yesterday the military fired on some 
youngsters at the old castle, wounding Thorn Price's son and young 
Sullivan of the Railway Gates.' " 

Commissioner Walsh: I submit the letter for whatever weight the 
Commission may wish to give this evidence. I have similar letters 
sent to me which I do not happen to have with me at this moment. 

SENTIMENT FOR REPUBLIC ALMOST UNIVERSAL 

Q. I have one question that some present have wanted to have 
asked. I expect it might better be asked from some responsible 
Irish leader, but I am sure we would be glad to have your views. 
By self-determination what is meant, an Irish Republic and nothing 
else, or a greater degree than at present of self-government in 
Ireland? 

A. By self-determination they mean the right of the people to 
declare what form of government they want. 

Q. As a matter of fact, is the sentiment which you discovered 
in your investigations in Ireland for a Republic or for a greater 
measure of home rule? 

A. For a republic, I would say. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How universal is that? 

A. It is almost universal. 

Q. Is the present political line-up in Ireland confined almost 
entirely to the forces for the Republic and the forces for the present 
condition of union with England? That is, has the party which we 
once knew as the Home Rule Party been obliterated from the scene, 
and the forces we have now are on the one hand, the Republicans, 
and on the other the Unionists — that is, those who still adhere to 
the union with England? 

A. Yes. I knew of one man who belonged to the old Redmond 
Party who was going to "a meeting; and he said he didn't know why 
he was going, because it was the only party in Ireland that had no 
power at all. 



457 

ENGLAND'S OPPOSITION TO IRISH INDEPEND- 
ENCE PRIMARILY DUE TO ECONOMIC MOTIVES 

Q. Senator Walsh: Dr. Howe asked you a very interesting ques- 
tion a few moments ago. That is as to what predominated in the 
minds of the public men of England, the political, economic, or 
religious argument against Irish independence. I don't want to ask 
too pertinent a question, but is it not a fact that the economic argu- 
ment is the dominant one, and the political and religious arguments 
are used to bolster up, to prevent any change? 

A. I think the political is dominant before the public. 

Q. I know; but what is the reason that the political leaders of 
England are opposed to a Republic. They say they are opposed 
to the independence of Ireland, and then you ask them why, and 
they bolster up their arguments by economic and religious facts. 

A. I think the real reason is chiefly economic. 

Q. I don't think you get my inquiry, do you? 

A. Yes, I think I understand it. I think the objection to giving 
Ireland her independence is primarily economic. 

Q. Chairman Howe: And in economic you would include all the 
questions about the rights and wrongs of protecting England's army 
and navy? 

A. Yes, and the sources of her food supply. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Yes, but political considerations like 
the breaking up of the Empire, and that Ireland would be used for 
a military base, come in, do they not? 

A. Yes, they come in. That is part of the question. But I think 
that the gentleman who asked the question asked for my opinion, 
and my opinion is that the economic consideration is fundamental. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Is not the question of the breaking up of the 
Empire — has not that question an economic phase? Is not there 
an economic interest on the part of Great Britain in the preservation 
of the Empire? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: And there is also what is called the 
glory side. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: After all, the political issues, such as 
a military base, and all the subjects which are interrelated with 
each other, would come back to the economic issue. 

A. Yes. 



458 

Q. I think you would find the economic foundation responsible 
for the question. 
A. Yes. 

EXPLOITATION OF CHILD LABOR 

Q. Now, I would like to ask another question. You saw the 
children working in Ireland. I would like to know, have you any 
idea how young some of those children are who are exploited there? 

A. I knew a girl who belonged to the National University in 
Ireland, who was interested in a club for these children in Dublin, 
who told me of a little news girl who was six years old who 
attended the club. 

Q. She only worked as a news girl? 

A. Yes. Now, in parts of Ireland the children go to these hiring 
fairs and sell their services too. They go as young as nine years 
old. I know of one person who went when he was nine years old 
to a hiring fair and was employed for three months at $15. 

Q. $15 a month? 

A. No, $15 for the three months. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Was he allowed to do so because his 
mother was a widow? That would be an exception to the child- 
labor law. 

A. This was under the Irish Educational Act, that permits a 
child who is two miles away from a school not to attend school. 
But he can work. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: How many hours are they required 
to attend school? 

A. I do not know. 

Q. Do they work at night? 

A. I do not know. 

SCANT PROSPERITY AMONG FARMERS AND 
TENANTS 

Q. Another question about these farms, describing how they 
live in their cottages. As a rule, what is the acreage of these farms? 
Are they large farms and these men tenants on them, or are they 
small farms? 

A. You mean the farm laborers? 

Q. I am speaking of those people who lived in those one-room 
cottages. How much ground do they till? 

A. They were tenants around Donegal. 



459 

Q. They were working for someone who owned the farm land? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you have any experience with the independent farmer 
who owned his own land and his own home and tilled his own soil? 

A. Well, a great many of those are not wholly independent yet. 
They are paying on their farms. 

Q. Their land is covered with a mortgage? 

A. Yes. Of course, as I said, they were prosperous during the 
war years. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Relatively prosperous? 

A. Yes. There was a big demand for agricultural products 
during the war, and then they were relatively prosperous. But as 
I said a little while ago, this prosperity was due to die, according 
to Professor Smith, Professor of Economics at Cork University — 
this prosperity was due to die in about two years. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Do you know anything about the 
fertility of the soil in Ireland? 

A. It varies with the sections. The northwest is a very stony 
country. Huge holdings sell for a few dollars. In one of Lionel 
Smith-Gordon's books he tells of a large holding in Donegal that 
sold for $10. 

Q. Would not that land be good for grazing purposes? 

A. No. The scrawny cattle you see there would answer that. 
The soil there has to be hand spaded on account of the boulders in 
the soil. And it is so unfertile that it is necessary for the farmers 
to drag the seaweed, the kelp from the ocean, when the tide is out, 
and put it in these big rush baskets, and put this kelp in the furrows 
of the soil there. They either do that or have to go to the expense 
of buying artificial fertilizer. 

Q. That is only true of certain sections of Ireland? 

A. It is true in the northwest. It is true in Sligo. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How about the Gal way district? Is that 
the same there? 
A. Yes, largely. 

Q. Are these home-owning farmers Republicans too? 
A. Yes, from the election returns they must be. 
Chairman Howe: Mr. Manly, are you through? Are there any 
other questions you wish to ask, Miss Addams? 
Commissioner Addams: No. 



460 

A WEALTHY PROTESTANT SINN FEINER 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: One thing more about this Mr. Bar- 
ton you spoke of. What was his position over there? 

A. He was a Protestant landowner there, and had a large estate 
near Glengariff. 

Q. Did I understand you to say that he held some military 
position? 

A. Yes, he was in the British army. 

Q. In the British army? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And what is his position in the Republic? 

A. He is a member of the Irish Parliament. 

Q. A member of the Irish Parliament? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Elected by whom? 

A. Elected by the Sinn Feiners. 

Q. He is a Protestant? 

A. Yes. ' 

Q. Elected by the Sinn Feiners. Naturally he must be for the 
Republic then? 

A. Yes. 

LITTLE CRIME IN IRELAND 

Q. Chairman Howe: Miss Russell, you have quite obviously been 
investigating economic and social conditions there. Did you make 
any investigations into crime and vice in Ireland? 

A. I was in Limerick when they had the big strike in the spring 
of 1919. At night the city was in complete darkness on account of 
the striking of even the people who were connected with the manu- 
facture of light. And the force of constables changed from six 
hundred constables who were employed during the day to the night 
watch. I think Limerick is the only city in the British Isles which 
retains the old custom of the night watch. And I was told by a 
journalist in Limerick that there were only sixty members of this 
night watch who took the place of these six hundred constables 
during the day. When the courts were held there was no extra case 
of crime listed from Limerick during that period. Ordinarily with 
a city in darkness, the people excited, and hungry from strike fare, 
you would think there would be an increase in petty crime. But the 
records do not show it. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Some of the Royal Irish Constabulary who 
were on the witness stand last week said that on their details through- 



461 

out Ireland they had never had any murder cases come under then- 
notice, or arson, burglary, or any of the major crimes. The most 
they had come under their attention in years of service had been 
petty misdemeanors and brawls. They gave the Commission the 
impression that there was little crime in Ireland — very little crime. 
Did your investigation cover that matter? Have you any statistics? 

A. No, I haven't any statistics on the subject. I know that the 
Countess of Aberdeen, in a magazine called The Child, in an article 
published in 1911, told of the social conditions in Dublin and the 
great stress that people were under for just the means of existence. 
And she said that it was remarkable that there was very little crime 
to get what the people need, and that there ought to be a greater 
stimulus among philanthropic people to give to these people than 
there had been evidence of. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: You mean that under starvation 
pressure, there still had been very little crime? 

A. Under starvation pressure, exactly. 

Q. Mr. Manly: You lived for a time among the slums of Dublin, 
and also were around among the people in all hours of the day 
and night in other sections? 

A. Yes. 

Q. How did the general condition of the streets compare witb 
the condition of the streets in New York, Chicago, and other Amer- 
ican cities during the same hours of the day and night? Did you 
feel safe there? 

A. I felt perfectly safe. I walked from the telegraph office in 
Limerick at two o'clock in the morning through perfectly black 
streets to my hotel. I inquired the direction several times, and was 
finally assisted to my hotel by a member of the Black Watch. But 
there was no interference with my progress at all. 

Q. Was there at any time while you were in Ireland any inter- 
ference or any personal assault or any pickpockets at all, in your 
experience? 

A. No. I only had one unpleasant experience while I was in 
Ireland. It was about three o'clock in the morning in a railroad 
station; but that was all. 

Q. What station was that? 

A. At Galway. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Have you any material on the cooperative 
movement, on cooperative dairies and creameries, that you could 
submit to the Commission? 

A. Yes. I have. Mr. Howe. You mean with me? 

Chairman Howe: Yes. 



462 

The Witness: I have the pamphlet on cooperation with me, which 
I can give to the Commission, and you are quite welcome to it. 
Q. The Secretary has your address, has he not? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Is there anything further that you want to add, Miss Russell? 
A. No, Mr. Howe. 
(The witness was thereupon excused.) 

******** 

TESTIMONY OF HON. LAURENCE 
GINNELL, T. D. 

Chairman Howe: We will adjourn, then, until two o'clock this 
afternoon, when Mr. Ginnell will testify. I shall state what I know 
of him from memory. Also Miss Addams — Miss Addams, you state 
what you know about him. 

Commissioner Addams: Mr. Ginnell, you were a member of 
Parliament for a number of years. 

Mr. Laurence Ginnell: For eleven years, until I resigned in 1918. 

Chairman Howe: Then you were elected? 

Mr. Ginnell : Yes, I was elected. 

Chairman Howe: So that you are a member of the Irish Parlia- 
ment ? 

Mr. Ginnell: Yes, I am a member of the Irish Parliament and the 
Irish Cabinet. I am a member of the Irish Parliament and the 
English Parliament. 

Chairman Howe: At two o'clock, Mr. Ginnell. Or would you like 
to proceed now, Mr. Ginnell? 

Mr. Ginnell : I am afraid I have a bigger task in front of me than 
I thought when I left Chicago. 

Chairman Howe: Would you like to come on now, Mr. Ginnell? 

Mr. Ginnell: It will be all right with me. Any time. 

Chairman Howe: Very well. We will adojurn, then, until two 
o'clock. 

(Adjournment 12:52 P. M.) 

2:12 P. M. 

Chairman Howe: The hearings will reconvene. The first witness 
is Mr. Laurence Ginnell of Chicago. I have asked Mr. Ginnell to 
make his own biographical statement. Make it as full as possible, 
Mr. Ginnell, because it is closely identified with recent Irish history. 
So if you will, suppress your modesty, Mr. Ginnell, and tell us 
about yourself. 

Commissioner Addams: Will you not sit, Mr. Ginnell? 

The Witness: I have to make a preliminary statement before I 



463 

give any evidence. I have no intention of making any personal bio- 
graphical statement at all — not as a matter of disagreement. I only 
state the fact. 

Secondly, I thought that this Commission arose from recent events 
in Ireland; that the kind of evidence which I forwarded to the 
Commission a while ago would hardly be considered by them worth 
while, having been cast in the shade by more recent events in Ire- 
land of a much more dramatic character. It was only yesterday 
upon my arrival that I learned you wanted a background for present 
events. Then I set to work to make a background of the situation, 
which I will submit to you. It has cost me hard work since my 
arrival yesterday morning. I am going to submit it, and shall be 
glad if the Commission one and all will take the utmost liberty 
with me to talk over and ask me with reference to anything at all 
regarding Ireland. Because so far as my knowledge goes, it is quile 
on the surface and ready to be tapped. I do not know very much 
about statistics, because I have been too busy a man to give special 
attention to that branch of the subject. Consequently, if I am some- 
what defective speaking for myself, I will try to make up for that 
by indisputable authorities on these matters. 

WITNESS REFUSES TO TESTIFY IF EVIDENCE BE 

USED TO QUESTION STATUS OF REPUBLICAN 

GOVERNMENT 

Before I can begin on any branch of the subject, I must make an 
allegation. Among the things I was told yesterday was — 

Q. Chairman Howe: Mr. Ginnell, can we first get a little of the 
biography? 

A. I cannot go into this thing unless I am allowed to state the 
conditions. The evidence I have to give you is at your disposal 
only on the condition that it is not to be made use of in any 
recommendations regarding Ireland. We in Ireland have settled 
our own government on the basis of your President's own state- 
ments. We have applied the right of self-determination to our own 
country. Indeed, I will not go behind the present status of the 
Republican Government in Ireland today. Indeed, I will not give 
any evidence whatever unless I am assured that no effort will be 
made to go behind the Irish Republican Government, the only con- 
stitutional government in -Ireland today. And to attempt to discuss 
the right of Ireland to her independence is to attempt to re-establish 
the English Government where she has lost all power and respect 



164 

whatsoever. If I get the assurance that that is not your intention, 
(hen I will sit down and begin my evidence immediately. 

Chairman Howe: Mr. Ginnell, this Commission is a Commission 
to ascertain facts as well as possible about conditions in Ireland. 
It is not a Commission with official authority, and up to date has 
not made any recommendations of any kind. And it is not a 
Commission that has any power beyond giving publicity to all the 
facts reported to it by responsible witnesses. 

Mr. Ginnell: The point is whether the evidence I give today is to 
be used in any way to upset the present Republican Government in 
Ireland and re-establish the discredited English Government. 
Whether I begin or not depends on whether I get that assurance 
or not. . If I am assured that my evidence will not be used to upset 
the present government and re-establish England — if I get that 
assurance, I begin. If I do not, I shut up. 

Chairman Howe: You mean to recommend or suggest in our 
findings? 

Mr. Ginnell: To recommend in any way. You see, I am a citizen 
of the Irish Government. It would be traitorous on my part to put 
any evidence before an American body if that evidence would be 
used to bargain with the enemy. The enemy is out to discredit us. 
He shall never be re-established. He shall never be re-established. 
I begin now if I get that assurance. 

Chairman Howe: Our only purpose is to give publicity to the 
evidence as it is presented, and to put it into some logical form. 
Other than that the Commission has no definite purpose, as far as 
it has adopted a purpose. 

Mr. Ginnell: This little hitch was caused by something that was 
said to me yesterday morning: Will we accept dominion home rule? 
I will not discuss any such offer. 

Chairman Howe: We are not discussing dominion home rule. 

Mr. Ginnell: Very well. I thank you, sir. I thank you. 

Chairman Howe: You see, Mr. Ginnell, we are not discussing 
foreign government at all. 

Mr. Ginnell: I was told something different yesterday — that this 
evidence might be used for negotiation. We will never negotiate, 
never, never, except as between nation and nation. That must be 
quite clear. I had better begin. 

A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT ELEVEN YEARS 

Q. Chairman Howe: Mr. Ginnell, you are an Irishman? 
A. Yes. 



465 

Q. Of Irish birth? 

A. Yes. 

( v ). What is your home? 

A. County West Meath. 

Q. You have heen identified with Irish public life? 

A. Always. 

Q. How long have you been in this country? 

A. Since the first of last July. 

Q. Prior to that, what was your previous position in Ireland? 

A. A prisoner was my occupation for several years, except for 
short instances. 

Q. You were in the British Parliament? 

A. Yes. 

Q. When were you elected? 

A. I have been for eleven years actually a member of the 
British Parliament; but for twenty years in London before that 
living in Westminster. 

Q. And during that preceding period you were interested in or 
identified with political activities? 

A. Always. 

Q. What is your business or profession? 

A. I am a barrister of the English bar and of the Irish bar. 
But I have been too active in political life to practice. I am a 
qualified member of both bars. 

Q. And you have been in this country now for — 

A. Four months — four and a half months. 

Chairman Howe: Thank you very much, Mr. Ginnell. Now 
proceed. 

REASONS FOR DISTRUSTING ENGLISH 
PARLIAMENT 

The Witness: I always regarded the attendance of Irish represen- 
tatives at Westminster as worse than futile in practice, and only 
awaited a general policy of withdrawal to withdraw myself. One 
member withdrawing could produce no effect, nor could two or 
three. Ten or twenty would. The time had not come. I had con- 
stant and conclusive reasons for distrusting all English parties in 
the House of Commons in all matters relating to Ireland. To give 
only a few instances. On one occasion — I think it was in 1907 — a 
motion was under discussion calling upon the Government to allo- 
cate an adequate sum of money out of the excessive taxes drawn 
from Ireland for arterial drainage. 



466 

Q. Commissioner Addams: For what? For drainage? 

A. For arterial drainage. That is, the deepening of some of the 
larger rivers, to give free escape to their waters which, dammed up 
by obstacles, were thrown back and flooded large tracts of otherwise 
fertile land, destroying crops before they could be gathered in, and 
in some instances driving people and their cattle from their home- 
steads, delaying cropping for the next season, and making the land 
less productive. The drainage of these submerged lands was an 
urgent work of a character which would pay directly for itself by 
the increased fertility of the soil. But it could not be done by local 
effort because of the great cost and because of the length of the 
rivers, passing through or by several counties and local districts, 
which only a national authority could bring into concurrence. This 
obvious duty the British Government never exercised because it did 
not want the work done, and because it did not want to spend Irish 
money on an Irish improvement. If I am asked, Can I give any 
proof that such was England's motive? I answer yes. On the occa- 
sion just mentioned in 1907, on a motion to allocate an adequate 
sum of money for this purpose, all the Irish members in the House 
of Commons except two salaried place-holders supported the mo- 
tion — Orange and Green united supporting the motion; but it was 
ignominiously defeated by the Liberal government then in office 
with the help of Tory and Liberal representatives, showing that all 
British parties are allied in getting all they can and holding all 
they get. The money went for imperial purposes in various parts 
of the world, and the Irish people, Unionists as well as Nationalists, 
in Ulster as well as in Munster, Connaught, and Leinster, were left 
and are still left to the flooding of their farms and homes. To this 
day the Presbyterian farmers along the River Bann in Ulster, as 
well as the Catholic farmers along the Rivers Suck and Shannon, 
are victims of England's greed. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How many Irish members were in the 
British Parliament? 

A. One hundred one were supposed to be there, but the average 
attendance was about ninety. 

Q. Out of six hundred? 

A. Yes. All the Irish members on that day walked into the same 
lobby to have Irish money allocated for this purpose, and they were 
all beaten, showing that under the best conditions Ireland could 
have no hope from Westminster. 

Another instance. In the autumn of 1915, knowing that fuel 
would be scarce and expensive as the war continued, I formed a 
powerful committee consisting mostly of political opponents in my 



467 

own constituency of West Meath to start a fuel industry on a large 
scale on the peat bogs there. The machinery for this purpose being 
manufactured only in Sweden, we were refused a permit to import 
it, and the project was effectively killed. Clearly the answer given 
by John Burns, a Cabinet minister, to Colonel Warburton on the 
same subject was still in force: "Ireland must be kept to agricul- 
ture." Coal was sold in West Meath for twenty-three shillings a 
ton. It is now and has been for several years sold in West Meath 
at three pounds a ton, showing what a large profit could be made 
out of this one industry on bog land which was unfit for any indus- 
try except this one, and this one would not be allowed because it 
would compete with English coal in Ireland. 

It was not unknown that members of the House were actually 
canvassed by their respective party whips to hear specified speakers, 
and canvassed again to leave their seats to prevent other speakers 
being heard. Members of Congress and of the Senate will realize 
how unfair that was. On one occasion an English member, Mr. 
Joseph King, had the honesty to call the speaker's attention to the 
fact that he himself, in common with other members, had been can- 
vassed to hear a statement from ministers and other leaders of par- 
ties, and also canvassed not to hear me speak on the same subject. 
The speaker professed an inability to act in such a situation when 
members of parties, acting as if with an electric button, rose and 
cleared out and left me addressing the chair alone; whereas a 
speaker must have forty members or he cannot proceed. I was 
standing there with papers in my hand and ready to speak, while 
a sand glass was being turned and running empty, measuring the 
time for which I was allowed to stand. I had to leave the House 
with my speech in my hand and the documents to support it in my 
pockets. The members of the House had been canvassed not to 
hear the Irish case presented. 

BARBAROUS CHEERING OF COMMONS ON 
EXECUTION OF REPUBLICAN LEADERS 

Again, on the third of May, 1916, all parties sprang to their feet 
and cheered the announcement of the prime minister that the leaders 
of the Easter Week rebellion had been executed. This was a direct 
contravention of the stipulation of the Hague Convention of 1907, 
Clause C, which England had signed, which stated that people which 
had sprung out into open rebellion should not be treated as crimi- 
nals, but should be treated as prisoners of war. My cry of Huns! 



468 

Huns! on this occasion referred not so much to the execution as to 
the cheering of all parties on hearing of the execution. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Tell us something more about that, Mr. 
Ginnell. Did these men who were executed take part in the Easter 
rebellion? 

A. These men had taken part in the Easter Week rebellion. 
They were patriots, and they were my best friends, the best I ever 
knew. 

Q. Did they surrender? 

A. Yes, they surrendered, laid down their arms, and were pris- 
oners in England's hands. And the fact that more than six hundred 
members in the House of Commons, in a legislative assembly in a 
civilized country, sprang to their feet, waving their handkerchiefs 
and their parliamentary papers like that (indicating waving with 
extended arms) and cheering, brought up to my mind Dante's de- 
scription of hell, and I considered that they were demons and that 
they were Huns. I shouted, "Huns! Huns! Huns!" These men 
were the criminals and not the men who were shot at that time. 

Q. Those men were leaders in the insurrection ? 

A. Yes, they were leaders in the insurrection. 

Q. Just enumerate some of them. 

A. The chief, Padraic Pearse, leader of the Irish schools. His 
brother, buried in quicklime because he was Padraic's brother. 
James Connolly had this distinction: he was shot through the legs 
and through the thigh, wholly unable to stand. When the time came 
for his execution, the military doctors told the English authorities 
that the man would be dead in three hours. They would not wait 
for the man to die in three hours. They wanted to have the satis- 
faction of shooting him. He was wheeled into the prison yard in a 
barrow, utterly unable to stand. Twenty bullets were put through 
him at close range, and he went into the quicklime like the rest. 

Q. How many were executed? 

A. Sixteen. 

Q. Altogether? 

A. No, two or three at a time. 

Q. On different days? 

A. Yes, on different days. 

When Mr. Asquith announced that "Padraic Pearse, Thomas 
Clarke, Joseph MacDonagh, and John MacDermott were shot this 
morning," it was then the cheering occurred. And these men ! 
Joseph MacDonagh, a poet. Thomas Clarke, a man, I believe, about 
seventy, the oldest man among them. John MacDermott, and a man 
named Eamon Kent. J forget their names now. 



469 

Q. Was there a trial ? 

A. There was a court-martial trial. 

Q. Was it public or private? 

A. Private, of course, private. 

Q. Was there any statement made by the prime minister in 
Parliament other than that they were executed? 

A. No. He read from a telegram. That was all. 

Q. Those men were actively interested in the insurrection? 

A. Oh, yes. Most of them had signed the proclamation of Irish 
independence, except young Willie Pearse, brother of Padraic 
Pearse. He was shot because he was his brother. And Plunkett, 
the son of Thomas Plunkett. He was a poet. They were artists. 

REPEATED IMPRISONMENTS FOR PROTESTING 
IRISH WRONGS 

My own first imprisonment was on Christmas eve, 1907, for ad- 
vocating what is known as cattle driving. If you care to hear any- 
thing about cattle driving later on, it will be more* in place than 
it would here. In 1916, while still a member of the British House 
of Commons, I was imprisoned in England for having succeeded in 
writing my name in Gaelic in gaining admission to Knutsford jail 
to visit some of the four hundred Irishmen detained there for trial. 
An order had been sent to all the prisons in which Irish prisoners 
were detained that I was not to be allowed to visit them, presumably 
because I was calling attention to their treatment in the House. 
And I was imprisoned because I was compelled by this order to 
sign my name in Gaelic, which the prison guard could not read, in 
order to gain admission to see these men. 

In March, 1918, I was again arrested and sentenced to six months 
for trying to get an order to have the English order for compulsory 
tillage applied to all the large holdings as well as the small farms. 
This Compulsory Tillage Act was put in force by Orders in Council 
for the war. These Orders in Council when once put in force 
assume all the strength of an Act. The Order in Council issued in 
Ireland was in practice applied only to small farmers who had 
always been accustomed to till only a small portion of their lot. 
They had been compelled to till more, while large grazing tracts 
of land owned by men who did not reside on them at all — men who 
gave no employment, men who had only a herder and his dog for 
a tract perhaps of a thousand acres — those tracts were not touched 
by the Order. I went over the country advocating in counties espe- 
cially where such tracts existed that the young men in the neigh- 



470 

borhood who lived on poor soil, bogs and barren hills, should go 
to these owners and offer to take the lands over and take them at 
their full value as found by an English Government land valuer, 
in accordance with the Land Purchase system then in operation. 
There was no injustice, but there was popular force. But no injus- 
tice in taking the land from a man who does not reside on it, but 
resides perhaps a hundred miles or more away — no injustice in 
taking the land from him and paying him the full value for it, in 
accordance with Government inspection. I advised these young men 
to take this land*, and the money would be provided by the Govern- 
ment, as per the existing Land Purchase law. And if the owners 
refused, or if anything arose to prevent those men in getting the 
land on these equitable terms, to go in on the land and plow it up 
and make it useless for pasture. That advice was acted upon in 
several instances. The owners gave way, came to terms, and were 
very glad to take the money. In other instances the owner, not 
residing in Ireland at all but in England, refused; and then there 
was trouble. But whether trouble or not, for this offense I was sent 
to jail for six months. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Was there a trial? You were indicted and 
tried? 

A. Oh, yes; but I denied the right of the court to try me. 

Q. Your parliamentary freedom did not protect you, then? 

A. No, oh, no. 

Q. What were you charged with? 

A. I was charged with unlawful assembly, a very common 
charge in my case. On account of my age and my health, I was 
sent to the hospital part of the prison. But otherwise I was to be 
treated as a convict. That is, to get no visits, no books, no news- 
papers, or anything else from the outer world. And this was in 
direct violation of the agreement come to a few months before, after 
Thomas Ashe's tragic death, an agreement between the Lord Mayor 
of Dublin, Laurence O'Neill, the Bishop of Belfast, and the English 
Chief Secretary for Ireland, Mr. Shortt. An agreement was come 
to by these three men that political prisoners should be allowed 
visits and allowed letters. An attempt was made to break that 
agreement in my case. I at once went on hunger strike, absolutely 
refusing to take food and drink from the prison authorities, in order 
to obtain the treatment that had been promised under the agreement. 
I was only four days on hunger strike when through the influence 
of the prison doctors I was given political treatment. Then I came 
off my strike. 

Having spent six months in Mountjoy prison on that occasion, 



471 

my sentence expired at the end of October, 1918. The prison gate 
was opened only wide enough to allow my body to pass through. 
Immediately outside was the door end of a prison van, into which 
I was forced to walk. I could just see my wife and other friends, 
who had come to greet me, but I was not allowed near them. I was 
forced into the van and taken to Harbor Hill barracks for the 
evening, when I was taken to Reading jail in England without any 
charge or any reason being given me why I was being treated as a 
criminal. This did not surprise me, because while I was under- 
going my imprisonment in Mountjoy, many Irishmen had been 
arrested and deported; and some who like myself were serving 
sentences of imprisonment were taken off to England immediately 
upon the conclusion of their sentences without any warrant or charge 
proffered against them. In Reading jail I found about thirty Irish- 
men who had been brought over without trial or charges of any 
sort. The alleged reason was a German plot which the English 
authorities said they had discovered in Ireland in May, 1918. 

FORTY IMPRISONED IRISH LEADERS ELECTED TO 
PARLIAMENT 

At that time the English authorities, Lord French and Ian Mac- 
Pherson, were determined to crush the Irish people like "poisonous 
insects." Mark that in quotation marks — "poisonous insects." The 
outgoing officials denied that there was anything like a German plot, 
and no one was ever tried for any complicity in it. In my opinion 
the real motive for these imprisonments was to deprive the Irish 
people of any leadership or advisers for the forthcoming parlia- 
mentary elections, which were held in December, 1918. The object 
was to deprive the Irish people of their leaders and advisers in 
order that they, like sheep without a shepherd, might abandon the 
Republican cause. The result was different. Forty of those pris- 
oners in England without trial were put up in Ireland as parlia- 
mentary candidates and all forty were returned with sweeping ma- 
jorities. In a country of one hundred one parliamentary seats, we 
won seventy-three notwithstanding our imprisonment — a greater 
majority than any country, this or any other country just emerging 
from bondage, has ever had at the start. 

SUFFERINGS OF IRISH POLITICAL PRISONERS 

During that winter we all suffered severely from cold and bad 
food. When the temperature was lowest, the little heat that we had 
been previously enjoying was cut off, so that the backs of my hands 



472 

and fingers became black and hard and cracked deeply, and finally 
the entire skin peeled off. That was very painful. Others suffered 
in other ways. The health of all was injured. Imprisonment in an 
English prison, or imprisonment in any prison ruled by England, 
is no joke. It is hard for people to realize it. In my first imprison- 
ment ten years earlier, which I have mentioned, although I was 
allowed food and all of the comforts from outside, and was supplied 
with them, all that did not prevent the depressing effect of the 
prison on my whole system. The monotony of the place: nothing 
but white walls to look at; nobody to speak to; nobody to visit you; 
always alone. All this thing has a terribly depressing effect. I 
should have mentioned that in that imprisonment of 1907 I was 
imprisoned for six months without a trial in the ordinary sense. It 
is the usual course, and that is why I thought it scarcely worth 
mentioning. I advocated at that time cattle driving, which was 
mainly with reference to driving cattle off large unoccupied tracts 
of land so that they might be used. For the offense of cattle driving 
there is a civil remedy. The owner of the land or cattle may 
prosecute you or sue for trespass or damages. No owner ever sued 
me for such a cause, although I gave plenty of them occasion for 
doing so. In one particular estate I had dealt with, without my 
knowing it the estate was in chancery under the jurisdiction of the 
Court of Chancery. The judge of that court, Judge Ross, still on 
the bench, did not summon me to a trial. I was never tried nor 
asked to attend for trial. He treated the matter as contempt of 
court, with which in Ireland a judge can deal at his discretion. 
His discretion was to sentence me to six months' imprisonment — 
in my absence and untried. My health broke down, and at the end 
of four months the prison doctors became alarmed that I was going 
to die. I was then released, and it took me six to eight months 
more to recover my normal health. 

At the end of March, 1919, I and all the untried prisoners in 
England were released. On my release I went to a meeting of my 
constituency in Athlone to thank them for re-electing me in my 
absence in prison. Without notice or warning of any kind, the hall 
in which the meeting was to be held was occupied by the military. 
Not being able to enter the hall, we attempted to hold the meeting 
on the public square in the town. The military promptly came 
along with rifles and bayonets and scattered the meeting, running 
over poor old women and children who were unable to get out of 
their way with sufficient speed. For having attempted to address 
this meeting I was arrested at the railroad station in Dublin at the 
end of May, 1919, In the heat of the sun I was brought handcuffed 



473 

from Dublin to Mullingar, fifty miles, in a military lorry, sur- 
rounded by soldiers with rifles, and followed and preceded by simi- 
lar lorries similarly filled. My face and hands were covered with 
dust, and I was exhausted by thirst. I was brought back to my own 
county, to the people who had elected me, handcuffed as a criminal, 
for attempting to thank them for having elected me. It was only 
through the personal kindness of a policeman that I was able to 
get a drink of milk for the day — the only thing I had until I got to 
Mountjoy prison the next morning. I was sentenced by an English- 
paid magistrate to four months for unlawful assembly. 

On every prison door there is a card bearing the crime for which 
the person is sentenced. The card on my door stated that my crime 
was unlawful assembly, the unlawful assembly being the attempt to 
thank those who had elected me while I was in prison in England. 

My health began to give way completely, although in comparison 
to what other political prisoners had suffered, I had nothing to com- 
plain of. The doctor had ordered me to have daily baths, and when 
I went into the bathroom one morning I found a low criminal who 
occupied the cell next to mine pouring the contents of his pot — the 
worst smelling thing I ever knew of — into my bath. I complained 
to the governor of the prison, but without any effect. 

INDISCRIMINATE RAIDS AND ARRESTS 

A week before my time was up my health broke down most 
seriously, and I was released on that account. I went to the Isles 
of Aran to recover my health, and took no part whatever in politics, 
being wholly unable to do so. In March, 1920, I returned to my 
house in Dublin, intending to stay there just a few days. One day 
I went to the National Library to get Zimmer's German book on 
"The Irish Element in Mediaeval Culture," as harmless a book as 
anyone could imagine. That night at ten o'clock the house was 
surrounded by military, and after a thorough search lasting two 
hours, I was taken away to prison. By this time the curfew law 
was put into force, and night raids were of quite common occur- 
rence. With all civilians barred off the streets by the curfew, the 
military and the police carried on their work of terrorizing the 
people. When a house was raided, all the males in the house were 
swept off to prison, whether they were connected with the Repub- 
lican movement or not; so that it was not safe for the sons of the 
family to sleep at home nights, or even to sleep in the same house 
two nights in succession. I found one man in Mountjoy last March 
because his son, who was wanted, was not at home; so they put in 



474 

the father. Failing to find the man they want, they shoot his 
brother. This man was released, however, after a few days on 
account of his health, without prejudice to future committal, as the 
prison governor was instructed to inform him. I left behind me 
many men who had been swept up on night raids without any 
charge or trial or prospect of one. People have come to regard 
raids and arrests as the normal order of things. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Of what date are you speaking now? 

A. This year. 

Q. What month? 

A. March, last March. 

DUBLIN IN A STATE OF MILITARY SIEGE 

The streets were filled with fully armed soldiers marching about 
with fixed bayonets and bombs hanging at their belts. Often tanks, 
even in the daytime, rolled along. Aeroplanes hovered over the 
city of Dublin incessantly. There were soldiers at the railroad 
stations and at most of the bridges leading into the city. The people 
live in a state of military siege. All bowling societies, Gaelic clubs, 
and Cumann na m'Ban 1 meetings were being suppressed, but were 
being held in spite of the law, largely and mainly through the 
complete unanimity of the people. That is the foundation of the 
Republic of Ireland — the absolute unanimity of the people. A 
reward of ten thousand pounds, or about forty thousand dollars, 
was offered by the English government in every part of the city 
of Dublin, especially in the poor slums, for certain information 
and for certain men, dead or alive; and the reward was never 
claimed, such is the fidelity of the people. The reward was never 
claimed, although hundreds among those people knew where the 
men named could be found. The expression that a man was to be 
found "dead or alive" meant that he might be shot at sight, and 
that the reward would be given to the person who shot him and 
produced the body. That was the meaning of it. It was an incite- 
ment to murder. It was a license to kill. 

REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT FUNCTIONS BY WILL 
OF EIGHTY-FOUR PER CENT. OF PEOPLE 

As a result of the general parliamentary elections of December, 
1918, the members elected met in Dublin instead of going to Lon- 



1 A women's relief organization similar to the Red Cross. 



475 

don. They met in Dublin, formed their own national assembly 
called Dail Eireann, repudiated England and all foreign rule, estab- 
lished themselves as the ruling power in Ireland, appointed minis- 
ters to take charge of the various essential departments for the 
reconstruction of our country, and duly elected their president, Mr. 
de Valera, as duly elected a president of a republic as ever sat in 
the White House at Washington. That is our position. 

At the local government elections in May, 1920 — last May — the 
duties of the police were discharged by soldiers of the Irish Repub- 
lic. In many places public houses were closed by order of these 
soldiers to avoid any danger of disturbances. In one case to my 
own knowledge, schools both Protestant and Catholic were closed 
on the same day by order of these soldiers. The orders of these 
soldiers were cheerfully and implicitly obeyed by all classes in that 
local government election. At this election to local councils, town 
councils, and city corporations, we improved our position by having 
not merely 73 per cent, but 84 per cent, of the citizens of Ireland 
vote for candidates pledged to the support of the Republic. It may 
interest the Commission to hear that we completely broke the alleged 
barrier between the northeast corner of Ulster and the rest of Ire- 
land at that election. You are told in this country that the north- 
east corner of Ireland is Ulster, and that Ulster is a solid block 
against independence for Ireland. Against that let me give you the 
case of a friend of mine, Louis Walsh, of the Ballycastle district in 
County Antrim, an Orange county, where a Catholic candidate 
would have had no chance at all of election if dependent on Cath- 
olic votes. His election was accomplished by the votes of Orange- 
men. He started out by declaring himself an Irish Republican 
without any qualifications. In all his speeches he so described him- 
self. The election was held under a new system which England 
thought would be disastrous to the Republicans, the system of 
proportional representation. They thought we would be opposed 
to the representation of minorities. Consequently they passed in 
the British Parliament, where none of us were, the Proportional 
Representation Act, the main purpose of which was to secure the 
representation of minorities. We welcomed this because our desire 
always is and has been to heed the voice of all sections of the 
people. My friend Walsh of Ballycastle division of County Antrim 
became a candidate. All the people voted for five members. Ten 
candidates started. Walsh was one of them. He was the only Re- 
publican candidate. He was elected at the head of the poll. He 
got more votes than any other of the nine candidates in an Orange 
district. In his speech returning thanks to the electorate for having 



176 

elected him, he returned especial thanks to the Orangemen. With- 
out their votes he could not have been elected. 

ULSTER BARRIER MALICIOUSLY CREATED BY 

ENGLAND 

I give that as an instance of the artificial barrier attempted to be 
put up by England between Ulster and the rest of Ireland. It is 
purely artificial and purely malicious. We want the Orangemen. 
We know that they will be one of the strongest elements in our 
new constitution. We hope for great things from that particular 
section of the country, on account of the advantages they have had 
in industry when we in the sOuth have not been allowed to practice 
industry, as I have just informed the Commission. If English 
power were out of Ireland, the south and the west and the midlands 
would harmonize with the people of the north within twenty-four 
hours. There is no division between us but a factitious, artificial 
division kept up as a pretext for such riots as occur occasionally 
in Derry City and in Belfast under English influence. 

That was the general condition of Ireland when I was leaving 
it last July. I left Ireland on the ninth of July. I have been told 
since I came to Washington that the Commission desired something 
of an historical background for the present situation in Ireland. 
What has it sprung out of? What is its source and origin? I 
recognize that that is a very important thing, although I had no 
knowledge of the desire for its presentation until I arrived yester- 
day. I have since then armed myself with what will give the Com- 
mission as much information as they may desire on that particular 
point. 

IRELAND NEXT TO GREECE IN CONTRIBUTIONS 
TO CIVILIZATION 

On account of the poor, hungry, and ignorant Irish peasants who 
have for generations come to this country, and the effect on the 
minds of Americans as to what sort of a race they must belong to 
to be so backward, I claim the privilege of saying, and supporting 
the statement as briefly as possible, that our nation of Ireland is 
one with a grand historical past. I say with knowledge that no 
nation in Europe excepting Greece alone has done as much as our 
little country of Ireland has done for European civilization, and 
consequently for the civilization of this country. Augustine Thierry, 
a Frenchman, in his book. "The Norman Conquest," volume II, 



477 

pages 121, 122, says: "No country has furnished a greater number 
of missionaries for Christianity, from no other motive than pure 
zeal and an ardent desire of communicating to foreign nations the 
opinions and faith of their country. The Irish were great travelers, 
and always gained the hearts of those whom they visited by the 
extreme ease with which they conformed to their customs and way 
of life. This facility of manners was allied in them with an extreme 
love of national independence." 

I shall give no authorities except non-Irish authorities as far as 
I know. Heinrich Zimmer, in his work, "The Irish Element in 
Mediaeval Culture," says: "Dungal, Johannes Scotus, Clemens, 
Sedulius, and Moengal are representatives of a higher culture than 
was to be found on the Continent of their day. To a purely 
Christian training and a severely simple habit of mind they joined 
the highest theoretical attainments, based upon a thorough knowl- 
edge of the best standards of classical antiquity. These Irishmen 
had a high mission entrusted to them, and they faithfully accom- 
plished their task." 

EXTIRPATION OF IRISH PEOPLE THE CONTIN- 
UOUS ENGLISH POLICY SINCE HENRY VIII. 

All of this refers to Ireland's relations with the Continent of 
Europe from the fifth to the tenth centuries. Then dark days came. 
King Henry VIII of England was the first English sovereign to plan 
and put into feasible operation a conquest of the whole of Ireland, 
and the substitution of English tenure for Irish tenure of land, and 
the substitution of English planters for the Irish people he had 
dispossessed and exterminated. 

Then, of course, in English State Papers, 2, Volume III, page 
329 — is that too far back? 

Chairman Howe: I was thinking that you might cite the places, 
and save your time. Or you could just leave the book with us. 

The Witness: The point was that King Henry VIII was the first 
English king who initiated the extirpation of the Irish race from 
Ireland. The previous policy of military conquest had failed, and 
from Henry VIII's time on the continuous and consistent policy of 
England in Ireland has been nothing less than the gradual extir- 
pation of the whole nation. It was suggested to Henry to take first 
from the people their corn, so that they and their cattle and beasts 
would have nothing on which to live, and then they could be easily 
clone away with. As the State Papers say, ''Thus to enterprise the 
whole extirpation and total destruction of all the Irishmen of the 



478 

land, it would be a marvelous sumptuous charge and great diffi- 
culty." Henry himself wrote, "Now at the beginning politic prac- 
tice may do more good than exploit of war, till such time as the 
strength of the Irish enemies shall be enfeebled and diminished." 

At a later period, in Elizabeth's time, Sir Henry Sydney, her 
deputy, made a tour of inspection of Ireland in 1567, and he re- 
ported to Queen Elizabeth: "Such horrible and lamentable spec- 
tacles are there to behold as the burning of villages, the ruin of 
churches, the wasting of such as have been good towns and castles; 
yea, the view of the bones and the skulls of dead subjects who, 
partly by murder, partly by famine, have died in the fields, as in 
troth hardly any Christian with dry eyes could behold." The policy 
of extermination had been put in force there by the burning of 
corn in the fields, the slaughter or removal of the people's cattle, 
the destruction of their homes, and the slaying of the people them- 
selves. This is the report of Sir Henry Sydney, deputy of Queen 
Elizabeth. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Mr. Ginnell, don't you think it would suffice 
just to give us the references to these reports? 

A. I should like to build up my case. What I want to prove, 
Mr. President, is what an English Chief Secretary for Ireland 
claims, that English policy in Ireland is a continuity. I want to 
establish that. Present English policy in Ireland is a continuity. 
It is not a mere vagary of our time. I have English authority here 
to establish that. It is a very important thing to establish. 

In 1574 the Earl of Essex wrote home thus: "In the end it may- 
be put to her — the Queen's — choice whether she will suffer this 
people to inhabit here for their rent, or extirpate them and plant 
other people in it. The force which shall bring about the one shall 
do the other; and it may be done without any show that such a 
thing is meant." 

Hollinshed, an English historian, tells how this policy of extir- 
pation was carried out: "As they went, they drove the whole coun- 
try before them into the Ventrie, and by that means they preyed 
and took all the cattle in the country, to the number of eight thou- 
sand kine, besides horses, garrons, sheep, and goats; and all such 
people as they met they did without mercy put to the sword. By 
these means the whole country, having no cattle or kine left, they 
were driven to such extremities that for want of victuals they were 
either to die and perish for famine or die under the sword. By 
means of the continual persecuting of the rebels, who could have 
no breath nor rest to relieve themselves, but were always by one 
garrison or other hurt and pursued; and by reason that their cattle 



479 

were taken from them in great numbers and their harvest preyed 
upon, and the whole country spoiled and preyed, the poor people, 
who lived only upon their labors, and fed by their milch cows, 
were so distressed that they would follow after the goods which were 
taken from them and offer themselves, their wives and children 
rather to be slain by the army than to suffer the famine wherewith 
they were now pinched." That is from Hollinshed's history, volume 
VI, pages 33 and 427. 

I would ask the Commission to reflect whether that is not in 
entire harmony with what a member of the Commission read today 
that he had received from Ireland, 1 showing that England's policy 
of the Black-and-Tans is a continuity. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Mr. Ginnell, we have had a great 
many manuscripts put in for our information, a great many that 
could not be read here. And if you could mark that book and put 
it in the report, we could take it in evidence. We would rather ask 
you questions, I suppose. 

A. Madam, this is very important. It is absolutely essential 
to know what England's policy in Ireland has been in the past in 
order to understand what is going on there now. I have prepared 
this so that you will have the necessary background. All this re- 
sults from what I heard upon my arrival yesterday. 

Q. Chairman Howe: You have almost every page marked there, 
Mr. Ginnell. 

A. Oh, no. It would be time well spent. I am here to make 
the best case I can before the American Commission, and with all 
respect — 

Chairman Howe: We are not doubting that. 

The Witness: No one has the material that I have here under my 
hand. I have my case under my hand, prepared to present to you. 
I have come here to make my case. 

Commissioner Addams: We have had many documents put in. 

The Witness: But there is not one of these documents here, 
madam. 

Commissioner Addams: But we have done that, Mr. Ginnell, in a 
good many cases. You can leave your papers, and we shall con- 
sider them very carefully, just the same as if they were presented 
here. 

The Witness: Under that understanding, I agree. The book is 



1 Letter read into the record by Senator Walsh, p. 455. 



480 

marked on the margin with the corner? turned down.' I must ask 
leave to say this: We, a small nation, are in death grips with the 
most powerful and most unscrupulous empire in the world. That 
empire if allowed to be represented here would make an atrociously 
false case. I have evidence here to prove that England's policy in 
Ireland is the same today as it was a hundred years ago — a policy 
of extirpation. And I can prove that by the words of English 
statesmen and historians themselves. I would ask you, Mr. Presi- 
dent, to admit that that is a strong position. 

Chairman Howe: Suppose you summarize that as rapidly as you 
can. 

Commissioner Addams: That will all go in, Mr. Ginnell ; it will 
all go in. 

The Witness: Thank you, madam, I will do that now. I want it 
on the record that I made an attempt to prove the correctness of 
the statement of the English Chief Secretary for Ireland that Eng- 
land's policy there is a continuity. That is what I am here for. It 
is no freak at the present time. It is a continuity — a deliberate 
policy of extirpation. 

Commissioner Addams: That will go in the record, and in support 
of it you can submit this book, so that it is all there. 

ALL IRISH FAMINES ARE ARTIFICIAL 

The Witness: I accept it, madam. Evidence of the artificial 
famine and all will go in. All famines in Ireland are artificial. 

Q. Chairman Howe: You might just elaborate that a little. You 
say that all famines in Ireland are artificial. What do you mean? 

A. The Commission has before it evidence, on the one hand, 
that Ireland is a poor country, and on the other that Ireland is a 
rich country. Which is to be believed? I am here with very con- 
siderable knowledge to say that Ireland is potentially a rich coun- 
try, but under foreign rule can never be rich. That is the whole 
answer. There is no puzzle at all in it. Ireland can never be rich 
under English rule. I am here now to answer any question that the 
Commission wishes to ask on that point. I wish the Commission 
to be thoroughly satisfied on that particular point, that Ireland is 
potentially a rich country, rich under her own rule, rich under her 
own resources. 



1 The witness submitted in evidence "The Irish Republic. Why?" a 
non-official statement prepared by him for submission to the Paris Peace 
Conference, prefaced by Ireland's official case for independence. New 
York, 1919, 139 pages. 



481 

ENGLAND'S CONTINUOUS SUPPRESSION OF IRISH 
INDUSTRIES 

Q. We would like to hear you at length about that, Mr. Ginnell. 
Just explain what you mean by that. 

A. What I mean by it is this. Naturally, in speaking of the 
resources of Ireland, I speak of the land first. The land is fertile, 
wonderfully fertile for such a latitude. The people, as soon as 
they become owners of their holdings, are wonderfully industrious, 
untiringly industrious. Without a future, as they have been in the 
past — without a future and outlet for their abilities, they become 
idle and descend to vices. With a future they gain courage, and 
they are apt for any form of industry that they are allowed to 
practice. They are not allowed to practice any form of industry 
under English rule. 

Q. Explain what you mean by that. Give an instance of it. 

A. I gave an instance of it in the particular industry in my own 
constituency. 

Q. You mean to say that after the Irish begin to take advantage 
of the opportunities that are given to them under the Land Pur- 
chase Act or otherwise, that after they take advantage of it, the 
British Government makes it impossible to use it? 

A. No, it does not apply to land. It applies to industry. An 
Irish child may grow up and develop a distinct taste for mechanics. 
When he grows up in Ireland, he has no field for exercising his 
peculiar talent. He must go away to England, Scotland, or Amer- 
ica, where such work is appreciated. He is a loss to his own 
country. 

Q. Explain why it cannot be done in Ireland. 

A. Because industries will not be allowed in Ireland. 

Q. Industries will not be allowed? 

A. Industries will not be allowed. 

Q. That is true today, as it was in earlier days? 

A. True today, not so much of the laws of the present time, but 
as a continuation of the devices of past laws and continued admin- 
istration of those laws. 

Q. Give us some examples of today. Is that true of the fishing 
industry? 

A. Yes, it is true of all industries in Ireland. As early as 1545, 
an act of 33 Henry VIII, chapter 16, prohibited the importation of 
Irish wool into England, but the first deliberate blow at the Irish 
woolen industry and trade in goods manufactured from wool was 
the English Act of 1660, 12 Charles II, chapter 4. This bill hit 



482 

the English branch of the Irish trade in manufactured wool, but 
it did not interfere with the foreign trade. Another Act of the same 
year, 12 Charles II, chapter 32, and an Act of 1662, 14 Charles II, 
chapter 18, made it a felony that was punishable by death to export 
wool from Ireland anywhere but to England, and confiscated the 
ship and cargo and goods and chattels of the master if wool were 
brought into England except in the raw state under a heavy duty. 
That is England's conception of Irish industry. She made it a 
felony punishable by death to carry on the wool trade with foreign 
nations, and permitted raw wool only to be brought into England 
under a prohibitive duty. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: That was in 1662. And we suppose 
that since you have been in Parliament, you can give us recent ex- 
amples out of your experiences. 

A. Oh, no; that Act exists still in force. According to Lecky — 
and surely you will accept Lecky, an English historian who is in 
no wise partial to Ireland — we are not yet clear of the damage done 
to Ireland by the destruction of the woolen industry. I have been 
asked to give an instance. I will give you an instance. I will 
answer indirectly. In 1697 a violent agitation was fomented in 
the woolen centers of England, alleging decay of trade owing to 
the growth of the Irish woolen industry. As a result of this a bill 
was drafted and sent, in January, 1698, to the Colonial Parliament 
in Dublin for enactment. That body for once hesitated to pass, at 
England's dictation, a bill conceived and drafted for the express 
purpose of destroying Ireland's promising woolen industry. It had 
the negative courage to do nothing. Bearing in mind the circum- 
stances of the time, one can estimate the vigor of the woolen indus- 
try of Ireland from the statement of a contemporary writer that it 
was giving employment to 12,000 Protestant families in Dublin 
and to 30,000 Protestant families in the rest of Ireland. From the 
political point of view, they were the only families worth con- 
sidering. But a much larger number of Catholic families had taken 
up the industry as far as allowed, since it was a domestic and 
congenial industry. The Colonial Parliament at Dublin, dominated 
by England, was finally compelled to act, and passed late in 1698, 
by a small majority, the Act, 10 William III, chapter 5, Irish. It 
was a measure dictated by England in England's interest for the 
destruction of Ireland's industry and trade. It was followed the 
next year by an Act of the English Parliament, 10 and 11 William 
III, chapter 10, which prohibited perpetually the exportation from 
Ireland of all goods made of or mixed with wool, except with 
special license, and then only to England; and the English pro- 



483 

hibitory duties existing since 1660 were retained in full force. 
Thus every door was barred and bolted, and the people of Ireland 
were for commercial purposes marooned and imprisoned on their 
island as though they were lepers. Lecky says — Lecky is an ac- 
cepted historian who was opposed to nationalism and all those 
American fads that are becoming so popular — 

Q. Chairman Howe: I think we will accept all this historical 
data as valid. The Commission has a pretty thorough knowledge 
of England's embargoes on Ireland's trade and the attempt to de- 
stroy industry in Ireland during the preceding centuries. 

A. This is precisely what you asked for, sir. 

Q. I was thinking about something contemporary. 

A. The cotton and the glass industries have been suppressed in 
the same way. Ireland has peculiar ingredients for the manufac- 
ture of fine glass, and factories have been established at Birr and 
other places, where for some time a great variety of glass was pro- 
duced. The products of those factories was a very high-grade glass 
which was much in demand for exportation. As soon as the industry 
began to flourish, the English Parliament prohibited Ireland from 
exporting glass to any country whatever. 

Q. You mean to say that if a person started a glass factory 
or a cotton factory today in Ireland — you mean to say that the 
British Parliament or the British Board of Trade would prevent it? 

A. Yes, they would by sheer force overwhelm us. They would 
stifle us out. The British Board of Trade would immediately dump 
in Ireland bales and boxes and all goods necessary to stamp us out. 
We could not exist against it. 

Q. You mean that Ireland should be able to protect herself 
against such competition by necessary tariffs? 

A. Yes, certainly. 

IMPRISONMENT OF IRISH MEMBERS OF 
PARLIAMENT 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Mr. Ginnell, how many members 
who were elected to the British Parliament and instead became 
members of the Irish Parliament are still free — still at large? 

A. I do not know. People in Ireland do not know, because 
there are so many of them on the run. They cannot appear in 
public. A rough estimate would be — well, 73 seats were filled by 
Republicans. In four or five cases one man was elected from two 
seats. In our circumstances we cannot manage that. So that we 
really had 68 men for 73 seats. Of those 68, Pearse McCan, mem- 



484 

ber from East Tipperary, as fine a young man as I have ever seen, 
died in an English prison in March, 1919. Terence MacSwiney 
died after a seventy-four-day fast in an English prison. There are 
two gone. Roughly, perhaps twenty others are in prison, twenty 
arc on the run from the police, and the remainder are trying to 
mind their business as well as they possibly can, either their own 
or their country's business. 1 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did that Parliament ever sit in Dublin? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. For how many months? How many of its sessions did you 
attend? 

A. I did not sit long, because I was not free long enough to sit. 
I attended five of their sessions, I think. 

Q. Were those daily sessions? 

A. They were dailv sessions; but I regard the whole of a group 
of days as a session. 

THE NEW IRELAND TO BE A COOPERATIVE 
COMMONWEALTH 

Q. What kind of legislation did they pass in those sessions? 

A. It was constructive legislation. We could not take up any- 
thing like a code of laws. The only thing we could do was to adopt 
a code of justice as much in harmony as possible with the old 
Gaelic system, the old Brehon laws, which have prevailed in Ireland 
from before the dawn of history. We intend our Republic to be a 
cooperative commonwealth as much as possible. That will be in 
strict harmony with the old Brehon system. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What do you mean by a cooperative com- 
monwealth? 

A. I mean that we look to a future Ireland where most of the 
branches of business will be carried on by a cooperative system. 
By that we hope to escape from the difficulties of countries in 
modern times with labor problems. We intend that the workers 
shall be to some extent owners of the institutions in which they 
work, and that their prosperity shall increase with the prosperity 
of the institution, participating in its prosperity and participating 
in its direction. Some of the workers are very intelligent men. 

Q. That is along the line of industrial democracy? 

A. Along the line of industrial democracy. In connection with 
that, I think I ought to mention to the Commission that I wrote a 



1 For exact figures on execution and imprisonment of Irish Members of 
Parliament, see p. 161. 



485 

book in 1894, published by Fisher-Unwin, on the Brehon laws. The 
Brehon laws began in prehistoric times. In old manuscripts which 
we have in vellum they have come down to us. They begin in 
languages which no living man is able to translate. The only way 
that a translation can be got is by the glosses written on the margins 
and the interlined lines. That is the only way that a translation 
can be given. They are very picturesque. The whole body of the 
Brehon laws have been translated by the British government, by a 
man who was professor of Sanskrit in Trinity College. Under such 
uncongenial hands, the laws have been mistranslated; but such as 
they are, they have been published in five volumes — in five volumes 
as large as that paper (indicating double letter sheet). 

Q. Who conceived the idea of a cooperative commonwealth? 

A. We did. I was about to tell you that that book of mine was 
reprinted by the Socialists, by a man in Glasgow for distribution 
among Socialists, so near was the old Irish system like Socialism. 

Q. The Irish Parliament was dedicated to that form of govern- 
ment? 

A. Not expressly, but all understood that that was what it would 
be. I myself have written a little forecast of what the Irish con- 
stitution will be, but I haven't it here with me. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: You consider that the future state in 
Ireland will be along the lines of the present cooperative movement 
in Ireland? 

COOPERATION WITHOUT INDEPENDENCE WILL 
NOT BENEFIT IRELAND 

A. It will. You may be told by someone after me that the co- 
operative movement will be a solution for all their difficulties. But 
it cannot be done that way. We are told that laws enabling co- 
operative societies to be formed in Ireland would solve all of our 
problems. But we know better than that. We knew that to increase 
the farmer's income from the soil while the landlord was over him 
would only increase the wealth in the landlord's pockets. The only 
thing to do was to clear out the landlord and brush him away. 
And with the cooperative movement, to increase the wealth of the 
people by the cooperative movement while England is over us will 
only increase the amount of money that will flow into England's 
treasury. It will do us no good. That is my answer to cooperation 
alone. We look for great things from it in a free Ireland, but 
nothing in it for an Ireland ruled by strangers. 



486 

I do not know whether an English proclamation issued on the 
nineteenth of March, 1917, in the city of Bagdad, while the war 
was going on, would be of any interest to this Commission. 

Chairman Howe: It seems a good many miles away, Mr. Ginnell. 

The Witness: Very well. But I believe it would serve a place in 
the evidence. It is for the purpose of proving to the hilt, as every 
page of this proves (indicating book), England's hypocrisy. 

Now, on a subject on which you, sir, have questioned me, Buck 
says, "Every nation has formed for itself some favorite point, which 
for it becomes the criterion of its happiness." So have we. We do 
not interfere with the English nation or any other nation from 
forming any point it pleases as the criterion of its happiness, while 
we are allowed to form the criterion of our own happiness. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Was the Home Rule Bill discussed 
during your membership in Parliament, Mr. Ginnell? 

A. Yes, I was there during the whole of it, madam. 

ENGLAND HAS FORFEITED RIGHT TO RULE 
IRELAND BY TYRRANIC ABUSE OF POWER 

I have stated a good number of instances to you to prove that 
English policy in Ireland is a continuity, that its purpose is to 
destroy the Irish people. International law regards such abuse of 
power as tyranny, ■and France, England, Russia, and America have 
already in several cases, with universal approval, regarded such 
tyranny as a forfeiture by the offending state of any right to rule 
such subject nation, released the nation from such subjection, and 
established and maintained its independence. This book says: "In 
none of those instances, in no case of which there is record, has 
abuse of power been so bad or so long continued as in the treatment 
of Ireland by England, comprising as it does: (1) the policy of 
defamation of Irish character, still being pursued; (2) the policy 
of destruction of civilization in Ireland, still being pursued; (3) the 
policy of exterminating the Irish nation, still being pursued; (4) 
the policy of destruction and prevention of Irish industries and 
trade, still being pursued; (5) the policy of prevention of legitimate 
intercourse with other nations, still being pursued; (6) the policy 
of financial exhaustion of Ireland for England's purposes, still be- 
ing pursued; (7) the policy of infidelity to public engagements with 
Ireland, still being pursued; (8) the policy of general victimiza- 
tion of Ireland, still being pursued; (9) the policy of infringing 



487 

the international convention of The Hague of 1907, still being pur- 
sued; and (10) the policy of dominating international commerce, 
still being pursued." 

IRELAND DEPRIVED OF OVER FOUR HUNDRED 
MILLION POUNDS IN TAXES 

I was asked yesterday by the secretary of this Commission whether 
I could say anything on the financial exhaustion of Ireland in recent 
times. Mr. President, may I submit extracts from duly accredited 
authorities, commissioners appointed by the British government to 
examine the financial relations between Great Britain and Ireland, 
showing in modern times — that is, since the Union, since the year 
1800 down to the issuance of this report in 1896 — what those rela- 
tions were? 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is this historical, Mr. Ginnell? 

A. It is the report of the Financial Relations Commission ap- 
pointed by Parliament in 1896. 

Chairman Howe: That is a little far back. We should like to 
have you begin not longer ago than 1916. 

The Witness: This Commission is considering the present condi- 
tions in Ireland. The conditions that exist in Ireland now are rooted 
in what has been happening over there for several centuries. 

Chairman Howe: We know, Mr. Ginnell. But we are mainly 
interested in what is taking place over there now. To encumber 
our record with historical matters is not nearly so valuable to us as 
what is happening over there today. 

The Witness: Then your secretary must have been in error when 
he conveyed that impression to me. I have here the material he 
asked for. 

Chairman Howe: The current statistics in the Statesmen's Year 
Book will give us what is wanted about — 

The Witness: Oh, no, no, no. The Statesmen's Year Book is 
doctored. You cannot get it there. 

Chairman Howe : But we do not want to go back to 1800 or 1850. 

The Witness: But this is reported in 1896. Some of the men 
on the Commission are alive still. Really, I must begin to suspect 
with very serious doubt whether you want the whole truth and 
nothing but the truth, or not. 

Chairman Howe: You must know, Mr. Ginnell, we could spend 
years in going over the whole Irish question and going back to the 
beginning. 



488 

The Witness: Oh, no. I have the audacity to consider myself a 
very exceptional man before you. You have the opportunity to hear 
evidence that you have not got from anybody else. That is a very 
strong position. You may have other witnesses here who will 
represent the absolute contrary of this on their own authority, and 
it will go into the record. This is not ancient history. It continues 
still. These fifteen gentlemen, four of them Irish, the others 
Britons — these fifteen gentlemen found, to put it in a nutshell — they 
found that Ireland had been, since the Act of Union, overtaxed, as 
compared with England on England's own official reports — official 
statistics, the accuracy of which we deny — these gentlemen found 
that England had on her own statistics overtaxed Ireland as com- 
pared to England to the extent of over two and three-quarter million 
pounds a year. In 1915 Lord MacDonald, who is not a friend of 
the Republic, published a calculation made on the report made by 
these commissioners that to that date England had overtaxed Ireland 
to an amount of over four hundred million pounds. That has never 
been remedied. It is conclusive evidence of Ireland's financial 
ability to run her own government. I really must get up and go 
away if this evidence will not be permitted. 

Chairman Howe: Go ahead, Mr. Ginnell, just as you have done 
now. 

The Witness: Read, or what? 

Chairman Howe: Just as you are now. 

The Witness: I cannot do that. That would be only my ipse 
dixit. With the greatest respect, I want the evidence, which is not 
mine but England's evidence, on the record. And if that is not 
conceded, then I will have nothing left than to go. 

Chairman Howe: Go ahead. We really would prefer that that 
be typed and put into the record without your reading it now. But 
if you prefer to put it in this way, go ahead. 

The Witness: I would with pleasure have had it typed and given 
to the Commission if I had any idea you wanted such matter. I 
really do not know where to start. This Commission, let me say 
with the utmost respect — from what I have heard of it since its 
formation, let me say with the utmost respect that this Commission 
is at a crisis. You will have the truth about Ireland or you will 
not. It is not the first crisis that I have brought about elsewhere, 
in Westminster. If I get this evidence before you, then you may 
hear whom you please. If they can disturb a paragraph of this 
evidence, I will hang my head in shame. I am sure they cannot. 
How am I to know, unless you take the other half of this evidence, 
whether you have the facts before you. If I had known you wanted 



489 

it typed, I could have brought it that way. I worked all day yester- 
day to get it together for you. 

Commissioner Addams: We are not refusing it, Mr. Ginnell. It 
is just a matter of dictating it tomorrow to a stenographer and 
handing it in. 

The Witness: I am a man that has been broken down by almost 
continuous imprisonment. It does not want to be dictated. You 
have listened to evidence far less important. 

Chairman Howe: Go ahead, Mr. Ginnell. 

The Witness: The report of this Financial Commission states: 
"'The Financial Relations Commission was appointed to inquire into 
the financial conditions between Great Britain and Ireland and their 
relative taxable capacities and to report." The very terms of this 
commission are an acknowledgment that Great Britain and Ireland 
are not one country, but two distinct countries, in spite of the Act 
of Union and the amalgamation of their treasuries. The Commis- 
sion was appointed by royal warrant dated twenty-sixth of May, 
1894, with the following Commissioners: Right Honorable Hugh 
C. E. Childers, Chairman; Lord Farrer, Lord Welby, Right Honor- 
able O'Connor Don, an Irishman; Sir Robert G. C. Hamilton, repre- 
sentative of the English Treasury; Sir David Barbour, Honorable 
Edward Blake, a Canadian, but a member of Parliament for an 
Irish constituency; Bertram W. Currie, W. A. Hunter, M. P.; C. E. 
Martin, J. E. Redmond, M. P., an Irishman; and Thomas Sexton, 
M. P., an Irishman. To take the place of two deceased commis- 
sioners, there were appointed by further royal warrant dated twenty- 
second of June, 1894, Henry F. Slattery, an Irishman ; G. W. Wolff, 
M. P. On the death of Mr. Childers, the Right Honorable O'Connor 
Don was appointed Chairman. The final report, page two, states: 
"In carrying out the inquiry, we have ascertained that there are 
certain questions upon which we are practically unanimous, and 
we think it expedient to set them out in this joint report. Our 
conclusions on these questions are as follows: (1) That Great 
Britain and Ireland must, for the purpose of this inquiry, be con- 
sidered as separate entities. 1 2) That the Act of Union imposed 
upon Ireland a burden which, as events showed, she was unable to 
bear. (3) That the increase of taxation laid upon Ireland between 
1853 and 1860 was not justified by the then existing circumstances. 
(4) That identity of rates of taxation does not necessarily involve 
equality of burden. (5) That whilst the actual tax revenue of 
Ireland is about one-eleventh that of Great Britain, the relative 
taxable capacity of Ireland is very much smaller, and is not esti- 
mated by any of us as exceeding one-twentieth." 



490 

All of these things continue to the present day. We did not get 
rid of them by this inquiry. It is going on, and continuing to go 
on. Following the united joint report, from which the foregoing 
extract is made, there are five other reports signed by different 
commissioners, and a draft report written by Mr. Childers before his 
death, in some respects the best report made. The report signed 
by O'Connor Don, chairman; J. E. Redmond, C. E. Martin, W. A. 
Hunter, and Gustav W. Wolff, says, on page three: "Previously to 
the Union, it was not obligatory upon Ireland to contribute any- 
thing to objects beyond her own shores." This report contains an 
extract from a report drawn up in 1805 by Sir Stafford Northcote, 
for many years Chancellor of the British Exchequer. 

Chairman Howe: I think, Mr. Ginnell, you thoroughly misunder- 
stand the purpose of this Commission. We do not have it in mind 
to make any suggestions regarding the government of Ireland. 
What this Commission has been hearing witnesses on is conditions 
in Ireland today — the murders, the killings, the destruction of 
towns, the destruction of creameries, the continuation of civil war; 
and we really did not come together for hearing a lot of data on 
finance. 

The Witness: Then you will not admit it into the evidence? 

Chairman Howe: That will be all regarded if you can dictate it 
to the stenographer, and we will consider it in making the report. 

IRELAND FINANCIALLY ABLE TO SUPPORT AN 
INDEPENDENT STATE 

The Witness: Mr. President, the question will arise, Are we able 
to support an independent state? I want to prove it by the fact 
that England has extracted from us and will extract from us more 
than would support several of the states of Europe. Is not that 
important? 

Chairman Howe: Yes, it is important. But what we want to know 
are the things you have lived through. 

The Witness: I have not witnessed an attack, because it did not 
occur while I was at large. I was not free to witness it. And then 
when I was released, my health was shattered. I am a man who 
has always led an active life, and but for this unjust treatment I 
would be an active, energetic man today. I want to do the most 
I can for my country, knowing the powers and the resources that 
are against us. I am here for the purpose of presenting the truth 
about Ireland, whether this Commission is or not. I am here for 



491 

that purpose, and it is extremely hard to suppress it and to make 
me a party to suppressing it. 

Senator Walsh: Can it not be put in the record, Mr. Ginnell? 

The Witness: Very well, then. 

Commissioner Addams: I am afraid this is exhausting you physi- 
cally. 

The Witness: Oh, dear, no. I would work until I fell. 

Commissioner Addams: We admire your spirit of perseverance. 

The Witness: I want to say that it will be observed from all this 
that the Financial Relations Commission, in agreement with its 
name, deals only with money, and not with all the money relations, 
as it might have done, but exclusively with taxation. And in taxes 
alone England has robbed Ireland of four hundred million pounds 
in excessive taxation from the Act of Union down to 1914. 

IRISH TRADE WIPED OFF THE SEAS BY ENGLAND 

There are various other ways in which Ireland suffers atro- 
ciously: the loss of manhood driven to other lands; the revenue 
from her land, which has been estimated by competent authority 
at thirteen million pounds a year; and various other losses of that 
kind. This is not an academic matter for me. It is a matter of 
life and death for those who are dearer to me than life itself. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is all that written out? 

A. It is written out. This here is in Pitman shorthand, if this 
gentleman here (indicating reporter) knows it. This Commission is 
really narrowing the scope of its inquiry. We lose enormously by 
the loss of our trade. We have been wiped off the seas by England. 
Ireland was once a rival of England on the seas. She has not a 
ship now. Pass along the Blacksod Bay, a bay sheltered by a huge 
island from the waves of the Atlantic, so deep and so capacious 
that it is able to hold the whole British navy on its bosom. There 
is not even a fishing boat on it. Go down to Galway, which was 
a great trading center with Spain and other countries, even in Queen 
Elizabeth's time. There is not a boat on it. I spent six months on 
the Aran Islands near Galway. I saw only two trading vessels 
going into Galway Bay. I saw war vessels there, English war ves- 
sels, although there is no one there to do any harm. Even in that 
sheltered place of Galway Bay there was not a single sail to be 
seen except England's men-of-war. That is an enormous loss to us. 
We of the Republican Government have made efforts to get boats 
for the fishermen to put the fishermen at work. And we are 
thwarted, and our boats are confiscated; and actually our money 



492 

lodged under private names in the banks is taken out by English 
soldiers — bank robbery in broad daylight by the English Govern- 
ment. 

MUNSTER AND LEINSTER BANK ROBBED BY 
ENGLISH SOLDIERS 

Q. Senator Walsh: What proof have you of that? Name us the 
bank, and the individuals that have had their money taken. 

A. The Munster and Leinster Bank in Dublin. 

Q. Who are the individuals? 

A. I do not know the individuals. How would I know the indi- 
viduals? I have been away from Ireland in English prisons, or 
in America. 

Q. Where did you get your information? 

A. From the public press. This occurred last August. 

Q. You realize that we will have to make some findings of fact, 
not upon public press reports, but from what people who have per- 
sonal knowledge can tell us. 

A. Is there any doubt that the Munster and Leinster Bank was 
robbed by English soldiers? That is a notorious public fact. It 
happened after I came to this country. 

Q. We have your statement that you got that information from 
the press. 

A. Yes. But I know of another case of that kind, and I know 
the people involved. 

Senator Walsh: I am not disputing the facts, but I am trying to 
get the facts. I want names and I want places and I want dates 
about these things from some reliable source. I get letters from 
Ireland almost every day telling of such happenings — of people 
searched coming out of church, and of animals killed along the 
country roads, and that sort of thing. 

IRISH IMPORTERS COMPELLED TO PAY UNJUST 

PORT FEES 

The Witness: I am reminded of an incident of my own personal 
knowledge. There is a big firm in Dublin, candle manufacturers. 
They get raw material from this country, or some place, on ships 
straight to Dublin. I do not suppose any difference was made in 
the treatment of their cargoes from the treatment given to cargoes 
of other firms. But this particular firm refused to pay one par- 
ticular item. What item was that? It was a charge for port fees 



493 

in Liverpool, where the vessel had not been at all. They tested it 
out at law. They found that the whole power of England would 
compel the payment. Of all the many firms treated that way, they 
were the only ones who refused payment and sought justice in the 
courts. And they got only English justice. 

Senator Walsh: I cannot imagine any evidence more important 
for this Commission than if somebody could give us the names of 
ten, fifteen, or twenty individuals who have had their bank accounts 
confiscated. The bald statement may be impressive. But it is very 
much more impressive on the American people to show when it 
happened, how it happened, and who had their bank accounts con- 
fiscated. If we are to impress the American people, we must 
possess facts — facts of eye witnesses that cannot be disputed, and 
not general statements. That is not criticism of your general state- 
ments, but I am trying to impress upon you that is what we want- 
facts, and facts from eye witnesses. 

The Witness: It is very hard to get facts of that kind out of Ire- 
land, because a letter containing those facts would not be allowed 
through. There is at least a large chance it would not. I have 
given you the Lawlor case, a firm of candle manufacturers on 
Ormond Quay, Dublin, charged for port duties at Liverpool on a 
vessel that had reached Dublin from America without going to 
Liverpool at all. That seems to me to be a matter of some impor- 
tance. 

I can also give you an instance of a smaller bank, a bank of 
which Mr. Kelley, a brother of Alderman Kelley of Dublin, was 
manager. That bank was entered by the military and all the books 
of the bank and some of the cash taken away. That, of course, is 
a case which occurred while I was free. But I consider the Munster 
and Leinster case of more importance because it was a very large 
bank. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Who were the beneficiaries of those 
charges for port duties? 

A. The port authorities of Liverpool. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Are they a public organization? 

A. I do not know. 

Chairman Howe : It is a trust organization, organized under 
special charter from Parliament, which governs the harbors and 
docks. It is just like a municipal organization, but it is separate. 



494 

COOPERATIVE DEVELOPMENT OF LAND THE 
FIRST NECESSARY REFORM 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: May I ask you another question? 
Discussing the cooperatives a short time ago, to what extent would 
the development of your cooperative plans that you spoke of inter- 
fere with the private ownership of property? 

A. There are large tracts of land in Ireland — there is sufficient 
land in Ireland to go around, but it is not available for the people. 
It will have to be taken over for the people. I think that reaches 
your question, does it not? 

Q. May I just make a suggestion to make myself understood 
better? Is it the idea of your cooperation to develop along similar 
lines by which you developed the creameries? 

A. Our idea is rather to bring as much land as possible under 
tillage by resident owners. There are in many of the counties of 
Ireland large tracts of land which are untenanted and unresiden- 
tial — no owners reside there at all. One of our first works will be 
to break up those tracts and distribute them among working people 
on terms actually workable for people of that kind. 

CONGESTED DISTRICTS BOARD FAILS TO 
DISTRIBUTE LAND TO PEOPLE 

The Congested Districts Board was established by Act of Parlia- 
ment in 1897. It was established for dealing with what was called 
the congested districts. Its area of operation was limited at first 
to the western part of the Province of Connaught. Subsequent 
Acts increased the scope of the Board, so at present the congested 
areas comprise all of Connaught and Munster and the whole western 
seaboard, because the western seaboard has always been a difficult 
problem. This Board was created for a temporary purpose, which 
was assumed and described to be completed within ten years — a 
purely temporary purpose, to solve the land question in the western 
counties where there was congestion in some districts — the poor 
districts — while there was good land untenanted in other districts. 
Its purpose was to slice up the land and put people upon it. That 
Board has been in existence, not for ten years, but for twenty-three 
years, and in the very most congested county, where its services 
were the most necessary, it has failed to act. If this will be relevant 
and agreeable to the Commission, I will just explain this. The 
County Mayo was like a running sore on the face of Ireland. All 



495 

the poor people were crowded onto gravelly, hilly, and barren land, 
and large tracts of good land without a resident on them. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Unfertile land? 

A. Unfertile land. I went down there in the autumn of 1917. I 
was invited down there because I have spent almost my whole life 
on the question of the land. All my people and my life and 
interests are centered there. I stopped at Westport town and drove 
out to a mountainous district to the southern part of County Mayo. 
I drove through plenty of good land without inhabitants. I got 
onto a bog road covered with heather, which not even catttle will 
eat — it is used for bedding only. I drove on for miles, and came 
on to the unfortunate village concerned. It was a village of fifty- 
two families up on a mountain side where nothing grew but heather 
and rushes. The people came down to meet me when they saw me 
coming. The landlord also came down with them — a quite unusual 
thing, for he was a poor man too. There was not a thing to be 
seen — not a thing growing that a beast could eat. There were a 
few sheep, a few asses, and a few goats. What was up in the cabins 
I do not know. The landlord, John O'Dowd, came up to me and 
asked me if I was going to attack him. I said no, I was not going 
to attack any man. I wanted only justice. He said, "I am willing 
to sell. There (pointing to the right) is a tract of good land pur- 
chased by the Congested Districts Board fifteen years ago for dis- 
tribution, but it is held by the Board and let out to grazers and let 
out to pasture instead of distributed." On the right was Lord 
Luken's estate, and on the left was Lord Sligo's estate, bought up 
by this Board. The Board bought up this good land and would not 
distribute it. He did not know why. I found out afterwards why 
it was not distributed. He said, "I want to sell my land and get 
rid of it, for it is a terrible worry. Otherwise I must turn the people 
out and burn their houses." "Very well," I said, "we will see what 
the Board will do." I dictated a paper on the mountainside to the 
shorthand writer, a memorial to the district Board, a very respectful 
memorial but very strong in the facts, as I will admit. The land- 
lord was the first to sign that memorial. It was signed by all the 
fifty-two tenants, one by one. Was not that a strong memorial? 
It called on the Board for distribution of the land bought up and 
held by the Board for fifteen years, and still held by the Board. 
I went back to Sligo and got copies of the memorial printed, and 
went back to Dublin the next day and met two officials of the Board. 
One was a towering bully named Henry Doran. He took up the 
attitude of a bully of abuse and insult. He used the language of 
the old landlord class of the worst type. Of course we had to get 



496 

rid of him. The other member of the Board was Mr. Micks, who 
stayed with me — a very pleasant man to speak with. But he said, 
"We cannot do what you want. The Government will not allow us. 
It will not give us cash for the purpose, although it is bound by 
Act of Parliament to do it." So he politely told me that nothing 
would be done. Mr. Doran today is Sir Henry Doran and Mr. 
Micks is still Mr. Micks. That is the way a kindly attitude toward 
the people is rewarded. The population on the mountainside is 
still without land. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What was the motive for non-action? 
A. Mr. Meeks told me the Government refused to advance the 
necessary money. 

Commissioner Maurer: What were they using the land for then — 
grazing purposes? 

A. Yes, for grazing purposes. 
Q. Whose cattle? 

A. The owners of the cattle in all probability did not live in 
the same county. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Is this a case where the administrators of the 
law were negligent, or is it a typical case of the way the law* was 
administered everywhere? 

A. And is administered. It is a typical case. 
Q. So that no money anywhere was appropriated under this Act? 
A. That would not be correct. 

Q. Suppose the British answer is: The money ran out and we 
did not have enough to cover this land? 

A. Oh, the money was advanced for purchasers of the land who 
had influence with the Board. That was the explanation. The 
money did not run out. Then, too, this Mr. Doran, Sir Henry 
Doran, had cattle of some friends of his on this land. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is this the explanation? The Land Board 
bought the land for grazing purposes and turned it over to some 
friends of theirs for grazing. Is this the explanation? . 

A. That is the explanation to some extent. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Would they have to pay anything for 
the purposes of grazing? 

A. Oh, yes, they had to pay the Board. 

Q. I want to get this right. The Board got this land fifteen 
years before and was to divide this land up, and the owner did not 
get paid for it? 

A. Oh, yes, the owners, Lord Lukens and Lord Sligo, got paid 
for it. 

Q. But where does the second payment come? 



497 

A. They did not have money to put tenants on the land, to build 
homes and start crops. 

Q. Then the land was lying idle? 

A. Yes, so far as tillage was concerned. Instead of benefiting 
the poor people in the congested districts, it was turned over to the 
friends of the Board for grazing purposes. The excuse was that 
they could not slice the land up in small holdings because they had 
no more money. I should have said that in my memorial I offered 
on behalf of the poor tenants to take the land at its full value and 
not require houses to be built upon it, if that was the difficulty, and 
to work the land from their present cabins until they were able to 
make some money and build houses for themselves. I made it 
wholly unnecessary for the Government to advance money to build 
houses. 

IRISH PEOPLE COMPELLED TO MIGRATE TO MAKE 

A LIVING 

It is only just to these poor people to say that in all my travels 
through Ireland, I never met a more gentle-mannered people, a 
more sweet-mannered people, than those people on this mountain- 
side. They were beautiful in appearance and sweet and kind in 
manner, and they never asked me to put a thing in that memorial 
but what was strictly in accord with justice and equity. They, of 
course, have never been able to make a living from their mountain 
holdings at all. They have been migratory laborers to England 
and Scotland. That position becomes more difficult as the relations 
between the two countries become more strained. As migratory 
laborers they receive the least possible consideration. They are 
housed in a terrible way — in a way often exposed to Parliament as 
a violation of all sanitary laws. But they bear their treatment and 
make a little money and go back. 

And that raises a question as to why the Irish people emigrate 
and still continue to emigrate. What could those young men in 
those cabins do? Suppose there were three or four young men in 
one family. What could they do but go out of that country, where 
they were denied an existence before their eyes, to another country 
where there was opportunity? 

BEST LAND IN IRELAND HELD FROM PEOPLE IN 
LARGE UNTILLED ESTATES 

In that same visit to County Mayo I visited a district where I 
found a farm comprising the very best land in that part of the 



498 

county, five thousand acres, owned and grazed by one man named 
Carson. Not a solitary day's work given on that land to anybody — 
to grade it off or build fences — not a single day's work given to 
anybody. Five thousand acres in the possession of one man, after 
the Congested Districts Board has been more than twenty years in 
existence for the special purpose of solving that problem. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Are most of the owners of the large estates 
Englishmen? 

A. Oh, no, not necessarily. 

Q. They are Irishmen as well as Englishmen? 

A. Yes, Irishmen as well as Englishmen. These ranches are 
usually rented. 

Q. Who is the ultimate owner? 

A. Some corporation. 

Q. Is it a case of alien landlordism? 

A. Oh, no. Alien landlordism is a thing of the past. 

Q. How many acres are held in these big estates? Does it run 
into the thousands of acres? Or does it reach the hundred 
thousands? 

A. Oh, no; the island is not big enough for that. I should 
inform the Commission that there was no vacant spot in Ireland 
that was not occupied in days gone by. It was occupied, and then 
cleared off by each succeeding famine. 

Q. You have spoken about these large estates in County Mayo. 
What per cent, of the land is held in this district in these large 
estates? 

A. I am afraid, sir, that you have missed the point. The point 
was that the Congested Districts Board has existed to relieve con- 
gestion, and it has not done it. If you want to ask about the parts 
of Ireland that need such relief other than this particular district, 
I am equally ready to answer. In Meath, in my own county of 
West Meath, and in Kildare — there are three counties lying side by 
side — land that within the memory of living men uesd to be great 
wheat land is now lying absolutely untilled. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Grazing land now? 

A. All grazing. 

Q. A great part of the county is grazed? 

A. A great part of the county is grazed, and always the best 
land — land that you could cut with a spade — just with a spade — 
land without a stone in it — beautiful land. 

Q. Is a third of the land of Ireland held out of cultivation 
that way? 



499 

A. It would be hard to say. I do not suppose that much. It 
would not be that much. But so much of it is the best land. 

Q. Senator Walsh: I suppose you are offering this evidence to 
show the misgovernment of Ireland, and that the administration of 
this law has been in the hands of people who have not admin- 
istered it. 

A. That is it. That is it. 

Q. It is evidence of misgovernment? 

LORD FRENCH REITERATES ENGLISH POLICY OF 
DESTROYING IRISH RACE 

A. Yes, sir, indeed. Along the line of misgovernment, your 
remark reminds me of a very curious thing. We maintain that 
apart from money and apart even from property, the people of a 
country are its greatest wealth. 

Senator Walsh : They ought to be more the concern of government 
than the property. 

The Witness: Yes, than the property. It is a policy that has been 
pursued, and therefore must be the doctrine held by English rulers 
of Ireland, because over and over again, as I said, the policy has 
been a continuity, to destroy the Irish race. I have been prevented 
from supporting that from the past. I support it now from the 
present, from a statement of Lord French. Lord French stated two 
years ago in public that, "What is amiss with Ireland today is that 
there are two hundred thousand young men too many in it." What 
would be thought in a properly self-governed country of the head 
of the government giving expression to such a sentiment? There 
are two hundred thousand young men too many in Ireland! 

HIGHEST WELFARE OF A UNITED PEOPLE THE 
AIM OF IRISH REPUBLIC 

We want to keep these young men in Ireland. They are our 
greatest property and our greatest hope, and we want to make it 
possible for these young men to earn a decent living in Ireland. 
We want to break up the land first, so that they can live happy, 
self-contented lives in their own country instead of going to Eng- 
land or Scotland or to American cities, perhaps to live in slums. 
When we have established our Republic, we hope to attract home 
some of the young men who have picked up in this or other coun- 
tries special abilities and knowledge. We want them to come home 
and help; and we want people of every race who have the interests 



500 

of mankind at heart to realize that Ireland is to be a factor in the 
civilization of the future; that it is not to be a stale of rags and 
tags and slavery, but a country of art and education and everything 
that goes not only to make the people of the country prosperous, 
but to make them tasty, healthy, and self-sufficient. These are our 
aims. It may seem silly of an Irishman coming here to your capital 
to express such platitudes — things that ought to be the case in every 
well-ruled country. We want them to be the case, in Ireland. We 
have put all the ability that we possess and are capable of in this 
movement. We have sunk all the differences of classes and creeds 
and sects. We are done with them forever. We are completely 
done with everything of that sort. Difficult problems will probably 
arise in the future in Ireland, as in every other country. Difficulties 
naturally will arise. Some of the people will want one thing done 
in some way, and some in another. When we have achieved our 
purpose there will be a cleavage differing entirely from that of the 
past. We have merged everything for the present for the one goal 
of getting the enemy out. 

FAVORABLE POSITION OF ULSTER IN THE 
REPUBLIC 

Not only that, but as I have said awhile ago in briefer form, so 
far from we proving aggressors to any country, or, still less, to 
any class in our own, we mean and intend that all that is in our 
power will go into the great effort of wiping out these artificial, 
factitious differences that have been created by out common foe, 
uniting with them so that when these differences arise in the future 
in independent Ireland, that solid phalanx from Ulster, accustomed 
to industry, accustomed to a kind of life something like you know 
here, they will be the strongest power in our national assembly. 
And we wish it to be so, and we intend that it shall be so. We 
Republicans will have our differences, perhaps keen differences, 
legislative and otherwise. But we are all Irishmen, and we will 
settle our differences of opinion between ourselves for the good of 
our country. But there will be no religious difficulty with our 
fellow countrymen from the northeast counties. These we assume 
will come in in a more or less solid mass. We need them. They 
have qualities that the people of other counties have not had, be- 
cause they have had opportunities to better their skill that we have 
not. And we are determined that they shall benefit largely by the 
independence of our country. They realize now that, whereas Eng- 
land, in the year 1913, was taking out of Ireland before the war 



501 

eleven million pounds in annual taxation, she is taking out of Ire"' 
land now forty-three million pounds. Most of that money is spent 
for imperial purposes in different parts of the world. It is not being 
spent for Ireland. And all men — Catholics, Protestants, Unionists, 
Republicans, and whatever they may be — know that they and their 
families and their posterity will be better off when all that money 
is spent within the shores of Ireland. That is what we aim at. 

EUROPEAN STATES SUBSIST ON SMALLER TAXES 
THAN ENGLAND TAKES FROM IRELAND 

Q. Chairman Howe: Forty-three million pounds of taxation 
now? 

A. Forty-three million pounds of taxation for the present year. 

Q. That is taken out in income taxes, excise taxes, and customs? 

A. All taxation. 

Q. Does that include the rates? 

A. Oh, no; the rates are different from taxation. They are 
raised differently and spent differently. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: You said that the government of 
several of the countries of Europe actually required less money for 
their operation than England is now taking out of Ireland in taxes. 
What countries are those? 

A. All the Scandinavian countries — Norway, Sweden, Denmark; 
Switzerland, Rumania, Greece — we can compare with all of these. 

Q. Your fiscal needs are not as great as theirs? 

A. The Statesmen's Year Book would be very useful for that 
purpose. It would show you comparative costs of government. But 
it would not be very useful for my purpose, in showing England's 
financial relations with Ireland. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Now, Mr. Ginnell, have you something that 
you want to dictate to the stenographer? 

UNLIKE ENGLAND, GAELIC IRELAND HAS NEVER 
COUNTENANCED RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION 

A. I really do not feel in a condition to do it now. I am very 
sorry, members of the Commission, that I have not been able to 
develop all phases of this question. With regard to religious fric- 
tion, I have been handed today, and I fear I have lost it, an extract 
from the New York World to the effect that a Jew has been ill- 
treated in Dublin. Now, I want to emphatically deny, not with any 
special knowledge, but with a knowledge of what England is doing, 



502 

I want to emphatically deny that any Irishman has persecuted any 
person whatever on account of creed or race. To this day, no one 
can point out to me any single instance where anyone has been 
ill-treated on account of religion or race in Gaelic Ireland, in Cath- 
olic Ireland. There have been things developed in Belfast which 
I do not want to touch upon, but the aggression there is not on our 
side. In the time of Queen Mary, she drove Protestants out of 
England when she wanted to drive England over to Catholicism. 
She drove them out of England, and they came over to Ireland for 
safe refuge. The Quakers were driven out of England, and they 
came over to Ireland and established a school at Ballitore in County 
Kildare which became famous for having given a portion of his 
education to Edmund Burke. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was there never a pogrom against the Jews 
in Ireland? 

A. I am coming to that. 

Q. But just answer the question. 

A. Oh, never, never. The suggestion is horrible. The sugges- 
tion is horrible. I wish my answer would be taken down. The 
very suggestion is horrible. No pogrom against anybody of any 
religion or on any religious grounds has ever occurred in Gaelic 
Ireland. The Friends, as they call themselves, have always been 
respected in Ireland. One of my best friends was Alfred Wells, 
a Quaker. The Huguenots were driven out of France and came to 
Ireland, and are respected to this day. We still have little colonies 
of these French Protestants. There are a large number of Jews at 
present in Cork and other big centers, and of course they never 
have been persecuted at all, and have become wealthy people. 
People from Ulster, Protestants from Ulster, come down in the 
south, naturally and properly, to exercise their skill either as trades- 
men in different trades or as soap manufacturers. They become 
wealthy and they prosper more than any other people in the com- 
munity. They are given their due and full share of representation 
on local bodies. The money passing over their counters is the 
money of Irish Catholics. Can anyone call that treatment perse- 
cution? No. The greatest enemy of Ireland cannot produce a man 
who can say that he has been persecuted in all his life. 

I am sorry that I have transgressed so much upon your time. 

The Commission: No, not at all. It is a very interesting state- 
ment that you have made. 



503 

MURDER, TORTURE, AND ROBBERY BY BLACK- 
AND-TANS 

Senator Walsh: I want to call your attention, Mr. Chairman, and 
I want to have it heard by the other bodies represented here, that 1 
have received several letters — I have one now — from an American 
woman in which she calls attention to her experiences in Ireland. 
Here is a very recent letter in which she recites the shooting by sol- 
diers of a young boy who was swimming in a river in Ireland. She 
also recites several other experiences and incidents showing ex- 
treme cruelty and atrocities occurring in other cases. Here is a para- 
graph from the letter: 

"In another place not far from X the Black-and-Tans dragged 

a young man, whose father you know, from his bed while he was 
in the act of prayer, struck him several times, breaking his jaw, 
and then riddled him with bullets, because they were disappointed 
in not finding on his person or in his house some incriminating 
evidence of Sinn Fein sympathies. 

"Last evening while leaving church your old friend Mr. Hayes 
was seized by Black-and-Tans and killed in the Square. These 
London Black-and-Tans took some young men of the town and made 
them wallow in the rancid pool in the market place. They were 
made to walk on their hands, the Black-and-Tans holding them by 
their legs. Then they were thrown into the river and left to swim 
with all their strength in order to get out alive. 

"It is a common occurrence to have people relieved of their 
money by these Black-and-Tans. They are simply highwaymen, 
and when they return to the London slums which breed them, their 
pockets will be well garnished by the money of the people in this 
district. People have to hide their money so that it will not be 
taken from them when they are held up and searched by the Black- 
and-Tans. In riding from X the other day I hid my money in 

my hair. However, I was relieved of one pound I had in my glove. 

"The Black-and-Tans are also very fond of raiding public houses 
— rum houses, as we call them in America." 

Now, that letter is from an American woman. Cannot you or 
some person interested in this inquiry produce for us a series of 
facts showing actual concrete instances of such occurrences — facts 
stated by eye witnesses or by those who were in the immediate 
vicinity ? 

Mr. Basil Manly: That is what we are attempting to do. We have 
introduced no witnesses before the Commission except eye witnesses. 

Senator Walsh: You see how the broad statement that people are 
being held up means nothing. But the instances and times and 



504 

places and names of people who have been held up is convincing — 
the times that boys are taken out on the square and are compelled 
to walk on their hands while their feet are held up by the Black- 
and-Tans — cases like that reported by those who witnessed it 
happen. 

DIFFICULTY OF OBTAINING FIRST-HAND 
EVIDENCE OF ATROCITIES IN IRELAND 

Mr. Manly: You must realize that all information of that kind is 
from two sources: either the press from Ireland and the dispatches 
from Ireland, or else the official reports of Dail Eireann, which is 
the admitted authority in Ireland. And then we get only such re- 
ports as the British authorities let come through. No single person 
can be an eye witness to all these things, and it is only by accumu- 
lating the evidence of single individuals as we have done in the 
past, and as we hope to do in the future, that we can place such 
facts before you. But one other fact might be mentioned. 

Senator Walsh: Now, this letter is from an American woman. 
And I saw another statement of a person that had just traveled in 
Ireland that for thirty-three days he had not slept in the same 
bed twice, due to the danger of raids by the Black-and-Tans. There 
must be hundreds if not thousands of these statements. Could not 
they be tabulated in some way? 

Mr. Manly: We have not introduced material from newspaper 
accounts, but only from direct investigation. We have established 
a system by which we try to get in direct touch with every person 
who recently has been in Ireland, either through the public press, 
or through letters, which we have received by scores, I might say, 
telling of people who have been in Ireland. And as rapidly as we 
can get in touch with them and investigate them, we are bringing 
them before the Commission. But we do not want to bring before 
the Commission any witness who is not able to state facts of his own 
direct knowledge or of his own personal experience; nor would we 
attempt to put in a statement, I think, as to the number of such 
people or the number of such occurrences based only on newspaper 
reports. For I do not think that this inquiry would have the dignity 
or the value that I believe it should have if it were to rely upon 
such sources of information. But I can assure the Commission that 
as rapidly as these individual cases can be investigated and the 
individuals brought to Washington, we will place the evidence be- 
fore the Commission. Take, for instance, the case of Father Dele- 
hanty, the gentleman whom, I believe, you referred to, who said 
that he had not been able to sleep in the same bed at night for 



505 

thirty-three consecutive days. We have tried to locate him. But 
these men come in, and they have no central place at which to 
report. We are arranging to have a man meet the incoming ships 
and get in touch with these people as rapidly as they arrive; but it 
is a very great task. 

Senator Walsh: I appreciate that it is a very difficult task, but I 
should think that the Republic officials of Ireland, or some other 
officials, could get together data as to the number of buildings de- 
stroyed or houses burned or civilians murdered. 

Mr. Manly: Well, those matters come to us at the office in the 
bulletins of the Irish Government. 

Senator Walsh: That is only the conclusion of one of the parties. 
What I say to you I want to announce the same latitude for the 
other side. We want data as to the number of Black-and-Tans shot, 
and the like. 

Mr. Ginnell : We would like to have such information too. 

Senator Walsh: I suppose there is some official keeping track of 
these things for the English government too. 

Mr. Ginnell : I don't think the Commission realizes that any such 
document as a tabulated statement of evidence of that kind in Ire- 
land would be considered a seditious document, and would expose 
the man on whom it was found to be shot. 

Senator Walsh: I can appreciate that. 

Mr. Manly: I may say that we were in communication with Mr. 
Arthur Griffith as the source from whom we would accumulate facts 
and get evidence. Mr. Arthur Griffith has been imprisoned, and 
that breaks the line of communication from which we had hoped 
to get reliable and detailed information. 

Mr. Ginnell: I have just handed in a telegram which I received 
today which I think is very important — a telegram from New York 
saying that the Chicago Tribune, which published Mr. Hamar 
Greenwood's statement, has not received any protest from any civil- 
ized government regarding the atrocities in Ireland. I must say I 
think that is a great slur upon the character of America. 

Chairman Howe: The Commission had expected at the Thursday 
hearings tomorrow to present the witnesses who are coming on the 
steamship Baltic. The Baltic has been delayed and will not arrive 
until later in the week. It may be that these hearings will have 
to go over to the first of next week. There will be hearings here 
tomorrow morning, at which the concluding testimony of these 
hearings will be presented. 

If there is nothing further, the session stands adjourned. 

4:55 P. M. 



THIRD HEARING 

Session Two 

Before the Commission, sitting in the Hotel LaFayette, Washing- 
ton, D. C, Thursday, December 16, 1920. 

Session called to order by Chairman Howe at 10:10 A. M. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS NELLIE CRAVEN 

Q. Mr. Basil Manly (of counsel) : Will you give the Commission 

your name? 

A. Nellie Craven. 

Q. And your address? 

A. 1701 Rhode Island Avenue, Washington. 

Q. Miss Craven, how long have you been in the United States? 

A. I have been here thirteen years. 

Q. And were you born in Ireland? 

A. Yes, I was. 

Q. When did you return to Ireland? 

A. I went back on the twenty-fourth of July, 1920. 

Q. And how long were you in Ireland? 

A. Three months. I left there on the third of November of this 

year on the Baltic. 

Q. Why did you make a trip to Ireland? 

A. I had a letter from my brother, who said my mother was not 
well, and he wanted me to go over and see her. 

Q. And what town were your parents living in? 

A. Headford, County Galway. 

Q. A small town? 

A. Yes, about eighteen miles out of Galway. 

Q. Is Headford situated on the main road? 

A. Yes, it is on the public road from Galway to Westport. 

ONE POLICEMAN FOR EVERY TEN INHABITANTS 

Q. Were there any police or Black-and-Tans stationed in Head- 
ford? 

A. There were about thirty police, but no Black-and-Tans when 
I went there. 

Q. About how large a town is Headford? 

506 



507 

A. About three or four hundred. 

Q. So that there was one police for every ten inhabitants of 
the town? 
A. Yes. 

COUSIN'S HOME TERRORIZED BY BLACK-AND- 

TANS 

Q. What was your own experience and the experiences of your 
family with respect to the police and the Black-and-Tans? 

A. When I first went home there was quiet. But about the 
thirteenth of September the curfew was enforced in Galway. My 
cousin lives there, Michael Walsh, and his place was raided on the 
twentieth of September. They broke into the house and broke in 
the windows and shutters. He was not there. They went upstairs 
and searched the rooms; and then they were downstairs in the public 
house or saloon shooting and yelling. Then after a half hour they 
came upstairs again. One of them was swinging his revolver, and 
the oldest, a boy about thirteen, went on his knees to him and said, 
"Don't shoot!" and he said, "No, kiddie, I will not shoot if you 
will promise to be loyal to the King." Mrs. Walsh was there, but 
they did not know it was she. She begged them to withdraw. Then 
they went downstairs and stayed there for about an hour again, and 
then went away. 

BRUTALITIES INFLICTED ON BROTHER 

The seventeenth of September the Black-and-Tans came to our 
place at home. It was about one o'clock, and there were seven of 
us who had just set out with our lunch for a little trip. There were 
three ahead of us, and the other four of us were coming in the 
rear. So the three ahead of us ran into this lorry of Black-and- 
Tans. They held my brother, and the sister and the other brother 
came back and said that my brother was taken. So I went up there 
and met two R. I. C. men and I asked them what the charges against 
my brother were and what they wanted with him. They said for 
me not to advance any further. And he said, "Are you a Sinn 
Feiner?" and I said I was. And he asked my sister, and she said 
she was. And he said, "That is enough. You will get him in a half 
hour dead or alive." So I came down and told my mother. 

Q. Did they take him away? 

A. Yes. And we went back after a bit and found him crawling 
along the road, and we said, "What is the matter with you?" and 



508 

he said, "I don't know. I can't tell you." And we found two of 
his teeth were knocked out. 

Q. He was unable to walk? 

A. Yes, he was unable to walk. About an hour later they came 
and surrounded the house again, and said, "Who lives here?" and 
I said, "Cravens." And he said, "What people live here?" and I 
said, "Two boys and three girls." And he said, "Where are the 
boys?" and I said, "One of them is inside. You have been beating 
him." And he said, "Show him to me." And he looked at him 
and said, "He is faking." And he searched the beds and things, 
and the only thing they found was some songs of Easter Week. 

The next day my brother said what happened to him. They took 
his pocket book with seventeen shillings, put him against the wall, 
and shot three times over his head. One of them undressed him, 
and his hands were put between his legs, and he was made to bend 
over, and they beat him with a belt. And his watch was gone. 

Q. How did he lose his teeth? 

A. I cannot say exactly whether he was hit with a closed fist 
or the butt of a rifle. 

Q. That was when? 

A. That was on the seventeenth of September. 

Q. Did he ever recover his watch or his money? 

A. No, no. So on the nineteenth in Galway — 

BLACK-AND-TANS STEAL WHILE RAIDING HOME 

Q. Just one moment before you leave that. Did you find after 
this raid on your house that any of the articles were missing from 
the house? 

A. Yes, there were ten shillings that my mother had left in the 
cupboard somewhere, and some small pins belonging to the girls. 

Q. Gold pins or jewelry of some kind? 

A. Yes, gold pins. 

Q. What was the conduct of the Black-and-Tans when they were 
making the search in your house? What was their language? 

A. It was not very good. Their language was very revolting. 

Q. It was rough? 

A. Very rough. 

Q. Was the younger brother connected with any organization? 

A. No, he was not a member of the volunteers. 

Q. Was he in any organization? 

A. No, he wasn't in any organization at all. He told them his 



509 

sympathies were with the Sinn Feiners, but he was not connected 
with them at all. 

Q. Had your older brother been connected with them at all? 

A. Yes, my older brother was a Volunteer. 

Q. Had there been any proclamation against him at all? 

A. Well, that afternoon, when they searched the place, they said 
they didn't have the right man; that there was another one. 

Q. After beating up your younger brother, they said they didn't 
have the right man? 

A. Yes, after beating him up they said they didn't have the 
right one. 

COUSIN DRAGGED FROM SHOP AND MURDERED 

On the nineteenth of October my cousin — 

Q. 1920? 

A. 1920. There were five men went in and told him it was time 
to close his place up. 

Q. What was his name? 

A. Michael Walsh. 

Q. Where was his place of business? 

A. High Street, Galway. 

Q. What time was it? 

A. It was about five minutes to ten at night. So when the cus- 
tomers who were in there went out, these men held him and the 
apprentice up and searched him and the cash box and safe and took 
everything in it. 

Q. Took the money? 

A. Took the money and checks and everything. And then they 
told him they were going to take him with them. And he said he 
would like to take a little drink to steady him, and they told him 
it was a waste, because he was going to be dead in an hour. And 
he said that he would like to see a priest, and they said, "To hell 
with the priest"; that they were worse than he was. They took 
him out, and the apprentice asked the fellow who was in command 
if they were going to shoot Walsh, and he said, "I don't know." In 
half an hour the four men came back and went upstairs and took 
his overcoat, and told the apprentice to go to his lodgings, and if 
he opened his mouth he would be dead in an hour. The apprentice 
knew where Mrs. Walsh was. She did not stay in her own house 
after it was raided. So he went and told her that these four men 
had taken Mr. Walsh away and he did not know what they had clone 
with him. So they went out and searched until morning and could 



510 

not find him. At six o'clock they went down toward the docks and 
found the body down by the sea. It was a wonder that it had not 
gone out to sea. The military came and looked it over and said 
for them to wait, that there would be an inquiry. 

Q» Did they hold an inquiry? 

A. Not that I know of. 

Q. Have you been able to get any word from there? 

A. No, not since I came over. 

Q. Senator Norris: That was in Gal way? 

A. Yes, in Galway City. He was my first cousin. 

Q. That was your home? 

A. No, my home was in Headford, eighteen miles away. 

Q. What kind of a shop was that? 

A. It was what we call a saloon in this country, with a grocery 
store combined, and overhead the family lived. 

Mr. Manly: That is the ordinary custom in Ireland. The family 
usually lives overhead. 

A. Yes, the family usually lives upstairs. But Mrs. Walsh was 
not staying there then, because it wasn't safe to stay there after dark 
after the first raid. 

Q. How old was your cousin? 



He was thirty-six. 

Eight children? 

Yes, eight children. 

What was the age of the oldest? 

The oldest was twelve. 

How many boys and girls? 

Seven boys and one girl. 



MURDERED BECAUSE ELECTED BY REPUBLICANS 
TO URBAN COUNCIL 

Q. Senator Norris : You never found out what they did at the 
inquest? 

A. No, I have not heard. 

Q. Do you know of any charges against him? Why did they 
murder him? 

A. He was elected to the Urban Council by the Sinn Feiners. 

Q. He was a councilman of that city? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Duly elected? 

A. Yes, duly elected. 

Q. And he was serving as an official of the city then? 



511 

A. Yes, he was. 

Q. Senator Norris: How large was that place? 

A. I suppose it is a few thousand people. I could not exactly 
say. 

Q. Four or five thousand people? 

A. Yes, I suppose there would be four or five thousand people. 

SHOP AND HOME LOOTED 

Q. Do you know what condition the shop, as you call it, was in 
when they got through? 

A. It was in a terrible shape. 

Q. Did they destroy the property and the groceries and drink 
the liquor that was in there? 

A. They destroyed practically everything. They had lorries 
outside, and they took the tobacco and cigarettes and sugar and 
candles and different things like that — they took them away. 

Q. Did they take away any of the liquor? 

A. Yes, they did. 

Q. Did they destroy everything? 

A. Well, practically everything. There was a remnant they did 
not destroy. 

Q. What was the condition of the house upstairs? 

A. They shot through the ceiling and took away things that 
were valuable like ornaments. 

Q. Did they destroy the furniture and bedding? 

A. No. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What was the condition of the body when found? 

A. There were bullet holes through it, through the temples. 

Q. Four or five shots? 

A. No, one shot. 

Q. You left when? 

A. On the third of November. 

Q. And you believe that your cousin's wife would certainly have 
written you? 

A. Yes, I do. 

Q. But you have received no mail? 

A. I have received no mail. 



512 

FUNERAL RESTRICTED AND DOMINATED BY 
ARMED TROOPS AND TANKS 

When they gave us the permit to bury the body, they told us we 
could have any funeral we wanted, provided there was no tricolor 
or formation. 

Q. Senator Norris: What did they mean by that — no tricolor or 
formation? 

A. We couldn't have the Republican colors at the funeral, and 
the Volunteers could not have a formation. 

So at the funeral the priest read a note from the military that 
only fifty would be allowed to go in the procession to the cemetery. 
There were soldiers outside and a tank and armored car. They 
followed us to the cemetery and stood around while we buried him. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you know Reverend Michael Morley? 

A. Yes, I did. 

Q. Who was he? 

A. He was the curate of our parish at Headford. 

MURDER OF COUSIN ABSOLUTELY UNPROVOKED 

Q. Commissioner Newman: Had Mr. Walsh done anything that 
would cause them to have a particular desire to raid his place or 
to attack him? 

A. No, not a thing. 

Q. Did he participate in any opposition to the forces there? 

A. No, not that I know of. 

Q. Had he had any previous trouble with them? 

A. No, none at all. 

Q. Senator Norris: I suppose he was acting as a member of the 
council of the city, and that that was the reason. 

A. Yes, that was the reason. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was he a Volunteer? 

A. No, no. 

Q. His only connection with Sinn Fein was that he was standing 
as a candidate from that district? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Newman: Did these military who raided his 
place and took him away, did any of them give any reason as to 
why they picked him out for attack? 

A. They did say, when they were starting after him, that he had 
shot a lot of police; and he said that if he was as clear of every- 
thing as he was of that, he would be all right. And they said some 



513 

police had been shot outside <>l Gal way; and he said he had nothing 
whatever to do with that. 

Q. There were no arms in his place? 

A. No. no arms in the place. 

PRIEST'S HOME SEARCHED AND ROBBED AND 
FRIEND BRUTALLY BEATEN 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you talk with Father Morley? 

A. Yes, I did. 

Q. Did you talk to him about the attack on him? 

A. Yes, I did. 

Q. Did you ask him to prepare a statement and write it out 
for you? 

A. Yes, I did. 

Q. I will ask you if this is a copy of his statement ( indicating 
letter) ? 

A. Yes, it is. 

Mr. Manly (reading) : Statement by Reverend Michael Morlev, 
B.A., C.C., dated October 31, 1920: 

"On the twelfth of September. 1920, shortly after the burning 
and sacking of Tuam by armed and uniformed men, an anonymous 
letted posted in Tuam was delivered to me, stating: 'If anything 
happens to any policeman, you must die, even though we have to 
go to the chapel to get you.' On October third, 1920, at about 
12:30 midnight, a party of about sixteen British soldiers com- 
manded by a major and guarded by a masked member of the R. I. 
C. forcibly entered my house. My housekeeper was alone in her 
sleeping room. When the soldiers knocked at her door she re- 
quested two minutes to dress. The reply was, 'Not one second. 
Open immediately or we will smash the door in.' Instantly they 
smashed in the door. One soldier carried a flashlight, another 
pointed a revolver at the housekeeper and threateningly compelled 
her to get out of bed, which they searched. Meantime the other 
soldiers scattered all my books, papers, sacred vessels, and clothes 
indiscriminately around the floors. I politely requested one soldier 
to allow me to take my best clothes, but he roughly shoved me 
aside. Another soldier became very angry in discovering some 
photographs of the Republican leaders. He pointed his revolver 
to my head and said: 'I have a mind to blow your damned brains 
out.' About four others, armed with revolvers in their hands, si- 
lently looked on and made no effort to protect me or restrain their 
comrades. 



514 

"The raiding party brought John Flaherty under arrest to my 
house, having dragged him out of his employer's house. When 
leaving my house they took John Flaherty with them. None of the 
party apologized to me. I then lay flat on the floor and made acts 
of contrition. About ten minutes later I heard a piteous appeal for 
mercy, and some blows as if someone were being beaten. This 
continued for about five minutes, and then all became silent, until 
two lorries of military departed. 

"The next day I interviewed John Flaherty. He testified that the 
soldiers alleged he was an Irish Volunteer. They stripped him 
naked on the public street. Three armed soldiers surrounded him 
with revolvers pointed at him, while two other soldiers beat him, 
one with a stick and the other with a scourge. Flaherty's body was 
lacerated and discolored as a result. His nerves are shattered as a 
result of that night of horrors. 

"On the sixth of October military arrested me. I had a few 
rounds of revolver ammunition as curios. I was sentenced to nine 
months' hard labor, but after ten days in the Gal way jail, the sen- 
tence was remitted. Five pounds and other articles' were missing 
out of my house after the raid. 

"(Signed) Reverend Michael Morley, B.A., C.C. 

"31st October, 1920." 

Q. Mr. Manly: Is that the actual occurrence as Father Morley 
related it to you? 

A. Yes, it is. 

Q. And do you know generally that that is a true account? 

A. Yes, I do. 

Q. That occurred while you were in Gal way? 

A. Yes, it did. 

EFFECTS OF BEATING ON BROTHER 

Q. And to go back now. What was the condition of your 
brother's body when he dragged himself back to the house? 

A. When we got him undressed, his body was a mass of welts, 
not bleeding but next to it. 

Q. All over his body? 

A. Yes, all over his body. 

Q. Was the body discolored for the next few days? 

A. Yes, it was. It was black and blue. 

Q. Had there been any attacks on the police in Headford prior 
to these happenings? 

A. No, Mr. Manly, there had not. 



515 

Q. As far as you know, there never had been any attacks in 
Headford on the police? 

A. None at all. 

Q. Senator Norris: Where is your brother now, this one who 
was attacked? 

A. He is in Headford still. 

Q. How long was he in bed as a result of this punishment? 

A. He was in bed for about five days before he could get out. 

Q. What was his condition then? 

A. He was stiff and could not get about very well. Of course he 
was terribly nervous. 

Q. He is still there? 

A. He is still there, but the sight of a lorry or a Black-and-Tan 
is too much for him. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Just one question. Is your mother a widow? 

A. Yes, she is. 

Q. Does your older brother stay at home? 

A. Not at night, Mr. Manly. He is never at home at night. 

Q. He is never at home at night. So that your mother is there 
with a nineteen-year-old boy to protect her? 

A. Yes, she is. 

WIDOW AND CHILDREN LEFT DESTITUTE BY 
MURDER, ROBBERY, AND DESTRUCTION 

Q. Now, what do you know about the situation in which the 
wife of Michael Walsh was left? 

A. Well, I don't know how she is going to get along, Mr. Manly. 

Q. She has eight children? 

A. Eight children. 

Q. The store property was destroyed? 

A. Yes, it was destroyed. 

Q. The money was taken? 

A. The money was all taken — everything that he had. 

Q. And she has no relatives there to whom she can go? 

A. No, she has no family there to whom she can go. 

Q. Senator Norris: You said the older brother was not home 
nights. Tell the Commission why he is not home nights. 

A. Mother was afraid that the place would be raided at night 
and he would be taken. So mother is afraid for him to sleep at 
home nights. 

Q. He is what they call over there "on the run"? 

A. Yes, he is on the run. 



516 

Q. And he doesn't come home nights in order to conceal his 
whereabouts at night? 
A. Yes. 

EFFECT OF MILITARY TERRORISM ON PEOPLE 

Q. Mr. Manly: What is the condition of your little town? Are 
the people nervous and terrified? 

A. Oh, yes, most of the people are. With mother and the other 
girls at home, if they heard any dogs barking at night, they jumped 
out of bed terrified. When these men go along in the lorries on the 
road, they yell at them to put up their hands, and then shoot over 
their heads; and they are continually frightened that they will be 
killed. 

Q. And the lorries are going along all the time? 

A. Yes, all the time. Three or four a day, or maybe more than 
that. 

Mr. Manly: That will be all. Thank you very much. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



517 
TESTIMONY OF PAUL J. FURNAS 

Commissioner Addams, presiding: I think the next witness is Mr. 
Furnas from Philadelphia. Mr. Furnas is going to put in a report 
of the investigation made by the English Quakers, the Society of 
Friends in England. They made an investigation of conditions in 
Ireland last October, was it? 

Mr. Furnas: The investigation was made the last part of Septem- 
ber, but made public in October. 

Commissioner Addams : We telegraphed the members of their 
Commission to come here, and they, unfortunately, were unable to 
do so. But Mr. Furnas was in London then, and he can state the 
conditions under which it was made. It was made by Englishmen. 

(Mr. Furnas takes the witness stand.) 

Q. Mr. Manly: For the sake of the record, will you give your 
name and address? 

A. Paul J. Furnas, 501 Fifth Avenue, New York City. 

Q. Senator Norris: Let him give his age and profession. 

A. I am treasurer of the General Food Products Company, and 
I am thirty years old. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. I was born in Marion County, Indiana. I am a Quaker by 
conviction. 

COMMISSION APPOINTED BY ENGLISH SOCIETY 
OF FRIENDS INVESTIGATES IRISH CONDITIONS 

Q. Were your parents Quakers? 

A. Yes. But in the hearings here, I appear as an individual 
and not representing any organization or the Society of Friends. 
I am simply able to give a statement as to who the Commission of 
the English Friends was composed of, and the circumstances under 
which they were appointed, and the circumstances under which they 
reported. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Will you state those facts, please? First, how 
the Commission came to be created. 

A. The Friends of England, known as the London Yearly Meet- 
ing of the Society of Friends, have an ad interim executive body 
which is known as the Meeting for Sufferings. That body in its 
September meeting appointed a commission of three — 

Q. Senator Norris: What year? 

A. September, 1920. Appointed a commission of three to go 
to Ireland and make an investigation and report back to that meet- 



518 

ing. This commission was composed of John Henry Barlow, who 
was the chairman of the All Friends Conference, which was a world 
meeting of the Society of Friends in London in August of this year. 
He was formerly the presiding officer of the Society of Friends in 
England. He lives, I believe, in Birmingham. The second member 
of the commission was Roger Clark, who was an assistant chairman 
of the All Friends Conference held in London, and is the presiding 
officer, or what is known as the clerk of the London Yearly Meet- 
ing. The third member of the commission was Miss Edith M. Ellis, 
who is a prominent worker for peace in England and sister of Lady 
Palmore. These three people — - 

Q. They are all English people? 

A. They are all English people, yes. This committee went to 
Ireland and met Irish Friends in Dublin. And then they proceeded 
to what I believe was approximately a two weeks' investigation, 
which took them both to the north of Ireland and the south of 
Ireland. 

Q. Commissioner Newman: When was that? 

A. This was the latter part of September, 1920. At the Meeting 
for Sufferings held on the first day of October, 1920, in London, 
to which I have already referred, this committee made its report. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Do you know how long the committee was in 
Ireland? 

A. About two weeks. I have here a copy of the report which 
was written out by John Henry Barlow following the meeting, which 
covers substantially what I heard him say in that meeting. 

Q. Mr. Manly: He made the report for the committee? 

A. He was one of two who reported. Now, I shall follow what- 
ever course you indicate as to whether I shall read this report, or 
as to whether I shall simply identify it and leave it with you. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Is it long, Mr. Furnas? 

A. It is four typewritten pages, written double space. 

Senator Norris: I think it ought to be read in full. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Yes, read it. First, before you read 
it, is this report the report of the committee, or just of one member 
of the committee? Is it signed by anybody except the person who 
made it? 

A. I have here only a copy, but I heard it made, and can testify 
that it is, as stated, by the member of the committee. 

Q. Senator Norris: But what we want to get at is whether it is 
the report of the committee or just an individual. 

A. It is the report of the committee. 

Q. All right. They made an unanimous report, then? 



519 

A. They did make an unanimous report. I should say that 1 
have here a report written by John Henry Barlow and one written 
by Roger Clark. They are in agreement and are supplemental. 
This report, written by John Henry Barlow, was a few days after- 
wards published in the London Times — I believe the London Times 
of October fifth. He started out by saying: 

FRIENDS' COMMISSION MAKES THOROUGH AND 
IMPARTIAL INQUIRY 

"At its September Meeting the Executive Committee of the Society 
of Friends (England) had before it the disturbed condition of Ire- 
land. After serious consideration it was decided to send a deputa- 
tion to visit the country to gather facts and impressions and report 
to a subsequent meeting as to the possibility of relief, reconstruc- 
tion, and reconciliation. The deputation numbered three, of whom 
the writer was one. It may fairly be claimed that they went with 
open minds, anxious to receive light from whatever quarter it may 
shine. It is thought that some account of what was seen and what 
impressions were received may be of general interest." 

That is his general introduction to what was made public. 

"The chief centers visited were Dublin, Belfast, Limerick, Cork, 
visits being made also from these to places in the neighborhood. 
Our interviews were with men of every shade of opinion — Unionists, 
Nationalists, Sinn Feiners, Protestants, Orangemen, Catholics, Labor 
leaders. They included members of Parliament, bishops, business 
men, university professors, members of the Sinn Fein cabinet, Sinn 
Fein judges, journalists, working men. Altogether we had about 
sixty interviews besides attending groups and conferences. Every- 
where we were received with unfailing courtesy and kindness, and 
every facility was given for carrying out our commission. 

EIGHTY PER CENT. OF IRELAND RENDERS 
ALLEGIANCE TO REPUBLIC 

"First of all as to what we saw. On the surface Dublin was 
quiet, but while we were in the north, Mr. Lynch was shot in a 
Dublin hotel, and one or two encounters took place between the 
Irish Volunteers and the military. It was in Dublin that we had our 
first experience of the curfew, and received particulars of the burn- 
ing of the seventeen cooperative creameries. There, too, we found 
that there are two governments in Ireland, that of the Crown and 
that of the Irish Republic. Each has its cabinet, its executive, its 



520 

armed force, its courts of justice. It is no exaggeration to say that 
eighty per cent, of Ireland renders allegiance to the Irish Republic, 
whether willingly or unwillingly, and that in that area the au- 
thority of the British Government rests upon force and not upon 
consent. 

DEVASTATION THROUGHOUT IRELAND 

"In Belfast we saw something of the ruin caused by the recent 
outbreaks, but it was not until we visited Lisburn, a short distance 
from the city, that we began to understand how fierce the violence 
had been. House after house, shop after shop, burnt out com- 
pletely, in some cases not even the walls left standing. The marvel 
was how the flames had been kept from spreading and the whole 
town saved from destruction. In the outskirts were all that was left 
of one or two good houses, standing in their own grounds — bare 
walls and heaps of debris. Going to Limerick we found several 
ruined houses where the work of destruction had been carried out 
with extraordinary completeness. Painted in large letters on the 
walls left standing were such sentences as 'The work of the Black- 
and Tans,' 'The work of the R. I. C.' In Kerry Street, which had 
been raided but not burned, we found that practically every window, 
both glass and woodwork, had been smashed, doors burst open, 
and furniture, ornaments, earthenware — in fact, everything break- 
able — included in one common destruction. The accounts given 
were most graphic. Here it was a woman showing the remains of 
cherished ornaments and looking glass; there another lamenting 
over the shattered remnants of a wardrobe; and again another 
pointing to a plaster cast of the Virgin and rejoicing that it had 
been spared. Leaving this Via Doloroso, it was not surprising to 
read on the walls of some neighboring buildings such inscriptions 
as 'Sorrow to England,' 'Damn England.' 

RUINED VILLAGES 

"From Limerick we made a long round by motor car to visit 
three villages which had just been 'shot up.' These were Ennis- 
tymon, Lahinch, and Miltown Malbay. The first sign of trouble 
was cut telegraph wires. This had been done in two places. On 
entering Ennistymon the acrid smell of burning met us everywhere. 
Some of the ruins were still smoking, and here and there flame was 
flickering over the ashes. A man who had been present during the 
raid told us of the frenzy of the attack, the wild shouting, the blaz- 



521 

ing houses, the bullets whizzing past his head as he tried to bring 
two women from the street to a place of safety, the shooting of a 
man and the burning of the body in the flames. 

THE COST IN HUMAN LIFE 

"As we left the village a lorry passed us manned by armed police, 
and carrying on the floor two coffins. Presumably these were for 
two of a party of police ambushed and shot a day or two before. 
Lahinch had suffered more than Ennistymon. 'Come this way, sir,' 
said a man. We followed. There at the back of the house, in a 
low, poor shed, was a comparatively small chest covered with a 
white cloth, and on the top a few flowers. 'He was burnt, sir, in 
one of the houses. He was a stranger. We don't know who he was.' 
This was all that was left. Now we were talking to a woman. 
'When they came to my house I begged and prayed them not to burn 
it. The man at the door was tall and fair. I could see him plainly, 
for it was bright moonlight, and there was the light from the burn- 
ing house. I pleaded hard, "Don't burn this house. There's no 
one but women and children in it." And they went away and did 
not burn it.' Again we are questioning a man who had succeeded 
in putting out the flames in his house — a small inn. 'I carried the 
water up here. I was afraid they would see me and shoot me. 
There were some visitors upstairs, and they helped them out with 
their luggage. They said, "It's not women and children we want; 
it's the men we're after. We're out for blood." ; And now we 
leave the houses to go into the main street. A crowd is moving 
slowly from the farther end. A coffin carried shoulder high by the 
men of the village is being borne to the cemetery. With bared 
heads we join in the march. It is the funeral of one of those killed 
in the raid. A short interval and then a change. A motor. lorry, 
carrying six or eight soldiers with trench helmets, bayonets, and 
rifles at 'the ready,' passes through the village. I stand looking 
hard at this symbol of physical power. The soldiers' eyes range 
over doors, windows, and doorways, their fingers on the rifle trig- 
gers. I think of the charred remnants of the stranger a few yards 
away in the shed, of the coffin carried shoulder high; my eyes rest 
on the ruin left by the fires, and I cannot deny that a feeling of 
fierce anger flares up within me. And then like a flash comes the 
recollection of the lorry we have seen leaving Ennistymon, with its 
armed policemen guarding the two coffins; and I think of the mur- 
dered policemen, their widows and little children. And then, as in 
colors of flame, the conflict of the tragedy of Ireland is before me. 



522 

DESTRUCTION IN COUNTRY AND CITY 

"Continuing our drive, we saw evidence that the reprisals had 
not been confined to villages and towns, but that isolated farms and 
cottages had been included. In other respects the country looked 
prosperous. The cottages and farm buildings are well thatched and 
cleanly whitewashed; and indeed we were assured from many quar 
ters that Ireland is financially prosperous. 

"On the last night which we spent in Cork, I was awakened at 
about two o'clock by an explosion. Springing to the window I 
looked out. There was a good deal of firing, the coming and going 
of lorries and armored cars, and a searchlight in the distance. Two 
or three times I got back to bed, only to hurry to the window again 
as a shot or shots rang out. Gradually matters seemed to settle 
down. Investigation in the morning showed that a large part of an 
extensive shop front had been blown out by an explosion, and 
practically every pane of glass on the opposite side of the street 
for a considerable distance shivered by its force. 

A SINN FEIN COURT 

"In Cork we had the opportunity of attending a Sinn Fein court. 
Three young men sat on the bench, and there were about forty 
people present. The cases related to the licensing laws, and the 
proceedings were conducted in a quiet and businesslike manner. 
From many quarters we received testimony to the efficiency of these 
courts, and to the impartiality with which they administer justice. 
They deal with criminal offenses, questions of rent, ownership and 
occupation of land. So much for what we saw. Now for a few 
impressions. 

IRRECONCILABLE UNIONISM IS DEAD 

"The old irreconcilable Unionism is dead, except in Ulster. The 
old constitutional Nationalist Party has gone also. One former 
Nationalist M. P. told me he doubted if he could find enough 
supporters to fill his nomination papers. Everywhere men talk of 
a Republic, a liberal measure of home rule, or Dominion home rule. 
It is not that Unionists think home rule the better policy, but that 
they regard something of the kind as inevitable. A measure of the 
kind that would have been fought five years ago would now almost 
certainly be accepted by Unionists with thankfulness. 

"The Parliamentary Nationalist Policy was discredited because 
it was found to lead only to disappointment, broken Government 



523 

promises, bills withdrawn, Acts suspended. No one could trust the 
Government. In consequence practically the whole of the Nation- 
alist following has gone over to Sinn Fein. We gathered, however, 
that while the extreme Sinn Feiners were apparently irreconcilable, 
and will accept nothing short of an independent Irish Republic, 
there is a large mass of moderate opinion which would accept a 
well-conceived liberal measure of self-government. Several ex- 
pressed the opinion that the bestowal of this would kill the agita- 
tion for independence. However this may be, I must repeat that 
deeds, not words, are needed. Government promises are simply 
disregarded. 

THREE COURSES OPEN TO ENGLAND 

"Broadly speaking, the courses before England seem to be limited 
to three: (1) Repression and yet more repression, and all that this 
involves; (2) the gift of a liberal measure of self-government, 
including fiscal and financial control; (3) an independent Irish 
Republic. I am inclined to think England will rule out the first 
and third of these. What of the second? And what of the stopping 
of police reprisals, the withdrawal of the armed forces of the Crown 
as a pledge of the good faith of the Government, whose good faith 
also stands in need of some guarantee of the kind? I believe there 
is hope in this direction. But action must be prompt and decisive. 
Tempers are hardening. The door of opportunity is closing. Will 
the Government have the courage to act before it is again too late?" 

The Witness: This completes the report as written by John Henry 
Barlow. There are just a few conclusions that were stated for the 
committee by Roger Clark that I might offer in addition if you wish 
them. There may be points in his conclusion that are also referred 
to here, but I think it might be of some interest to have them in the 
words of another member of the committee. 

ENGLAND'S BROKEN PROMISES HAVE CONVERTED 
HOME RULE PARTY TO SINN FEIN 

"We must endeavor to summarize briefly our general impressions 
on the situation. Politically it is clear that the constitutional Home 
Rule or Nationalist Party has entirely disappeared. One of the 
late Members for Cork told us that if he put up again as a Nation- 
alist, he doubted if he would get enough support to fill up his nomi- 
nations. Sinn Fein, originally a semi-literary movement to revive 
the old native culture, language and life, developed later into a 
political movement for complete national independence from Eng- 



524 

land. The Nationalist Party, disillusioned utterly by the repeated 
non-fulfilment of promises of self-government from England, has 
moved bodily over to Sinn Fein. The elected Sinn Fein members 
meet frequently in Dublin instead of coming to Westminster, and 
have set up a Republican Government, electing a Cabinet which 
functions through judiciary, police, army, etc. They have appointed 
agricultural and other commissions, on which prominent Unionists 
have been not unwilling to serve. 

ORDER AND SAFETY IN IRELAND NOW FOUND 
ONLY UNDER SINN FEIN GOVERNMENT 

"It is generally admitted by moderate people, including many 
Unionists, that the only protection they enjoy is from the Sinn Fein 
police. Their meetings are protected from interruption, stolen 
goods are found and returned, writers of threatening letters are 
dealt with and stopped, laws controlling the sale of intoxicating 
drinks are rigorously enforced. All this when it is a penal offense 
for a Sinn Fein Volunteer policeman to act as such. It is plausibly 
maintained that if the English garrison and armed police were to 
withdraw, the Sinn Fein Government could and would run the coun- 
try, and that at present order and safety are only found in districts 
from which the English military and police have been withdrawn. 
Moderate people are already discussing to which Government they 
shall pay their next income tax. The English Government has 
ceased to function over at least eighty per cent, of Ireland. We 
were bound to recognize that a state of war is considered to exist, 
and does exist. The Irish Volunteers are the Sinn Fein army." 

ASHAMED AS ENGLISHMEN OF GOVERNMENT'S 
DEEDS IN IRELAND 

The Witness: Here is just a bit of conclusion: 

"As Friends we must deplore the violence and the bloodshed on 
both* sides that take place in such a state of war. As English citi- 
zens we must surely chiefly feel the shame of the direct responsi- 
bility of our Government for the policy of reprisals by the so-called 
Black-and-Tans led by their officers, during which town after town 
is being ravaged and burnt, and women and children are driven 
terror stricken into the fields and woods to seek safety at night." 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Did I understand you to say that that 
committee consisted of three people? 

A. It did. 



525 

Q. What nation did they come from? 

A. They are Englishmen. 

Q. Were they all English? 

A. All English. There were three of them, one living in Bir- 
mingham, one in a suburban town south of London, and Edith Ellis 
lived in London at the time I was there. They were all English 
people. 

Q. And this report was made at the World Conference? 

A. No, this was made following the World Conference of 
Friends, and was made to the executive ad interim body. 

Q. Senator Norris: It was made to the same body that appointed 
the committee? 

A. It was. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Did I understand you to say that you 
heard this report made? 

A. Yes, I did. 

Q. And you were in England at the time? 

A. I was. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were there any objections made to the report? 

A. There were no objections made to the report. There was a 
great deal of expression of commendation to the Friends who served 
on the committee, and under some difficulty and inconvenience went 
to Ireland to make the investigation. I can add, however, that there 
were some Friends in the meeting, who were in the decided minority, 
who were not clear as to the withdrawal of the English forces. That 
is, they had in mind the opposition of the people in the north of 
Ireland to the withdrawal of the English forces, and they said they 
did not see what was going to happen next unless it was civil war 
if they were withdrawn. I should say that there were from five to 
six people out of a committee of one hundred who expressed that 
attitude. 

Q. There was no question raised as to the facts, but only on the 
policy? 

A. Only as to the policy. I may say that these three Friends 
who made the report are generally considered among Friends to be 
as responsible as any three people could be. They have the highest 
regard and respect for them. 

NO RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION OF FRIENDS IN 
IRELAND 

Q. Do you know how many Friends there are in Ireland? 
A. Not less than three thousand or more than five thousand. 
I do not know exactly. 



526 

Q. Where are they located? Do you know? 

A. About Belfast and Dublin, and a few who are centered in 
the south of Ireland. 

Q. Both in the north and south of Ireland? 

A. Both in the north and south. 

Q. Do you know whether any complaints have come to the 
Society of Friends regarding the persecution of the Friends in Ire- 
land, or any violence toward them? 

A. No, I know of no persecution of Friends. There have been 
instances in which the homes of Friends have been searched. 

Q. By whom? 

A. I think both by representatives of Sinn Fein and the English 
Government, but I am unable to give details. But in no case that 
I know of has violence been done or property destroyed. 

Q. Do you know whether or not the Friends in the south of 
Ireland are as a class Republicans? 

A. As a class they could not be said to be Republicans. They 
have in times past been Unionists or Nationalists. They are not 
now actively in Sinn Fein, but I know that a great many of them 
are very sympathetic with the Sinn Fein. 

Q. But as a class they have, you think, been rather aloof recently 
from this more bitter political movement? 

A. They have always been aloof from it, as far as taking any 
partisan part is concerned, because of the fact that their principles 
deterred them from being very partisan in the matter— that is, from 
taking an active part in it. 

Q. Would it be your view then that the Friends would be as 
nearly impartial and unbiased as any group of people in Ireland 
can be? 

A. I don't know whether my opinion is worth very much on 
that point. 

Q. Well, you have stated the fact that their principles have kept 
them out of partisan politics to a large extent? 

A. Yes, yes; that is correct. To a large extent. 

Q. And would you draw the conclusion from that that they 
would be as impartial as a body of people could be? 

A. Yes, yes. I think that is a warranted conclusion. 

Q. Senator Norris: Do the Friends have churches in Ireland? 

A. Yes, they have. 

Q. Where are they located? 

A. I am unable to give a list of places where there are Meetings, 
as they are called. 



527 

Q. But wherever they are, they have places of worship? 

A. Yes, a considerable number of them. The chief places are 
Belfast and Dublin. 

Q. Well, Dublin is a Catholic community and Belfast is a 
Protestant community. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Well, then, I wish you would tell the Commission of any 
cases that you know of where the Friends have been interfered with 
in their religious services. 

A. I know of no such instances. 

Q. Either in the north or south? 

A. Either in the north or south. 

Q. Commissioner Newman: If there had been, you would have 
heard of such disturbances? 

A. I think I would. 

SOCIETY OF FRIENDS OPPOSED TO ALL WAR 

Q. Chairman Howe: Are the Friends fearful that if the Repub- 
lican form of government comes about they will be interfered with 
in any way? 

A. I have never heard any Friends express that. I know that 
there are some Friends in the north of Ireland who are fearful 
of the new government, but not on religious grounds. 

Q. But your Friends in the south of Ireland, where the Repub- 
licans are in the great majority, have more reason to be fearful, 
in case there were to be any persecutions, than those in the north. 

A. Yes, that would be so. But I have friends in the south of 
Ireland, and I have never heard them express anything that way. 

Q. Commissioner Newman: What are the political affiliations of 
the Friends in England? 

A. Before the war they were Liberals, but since the war it is 
hard to say. A great many of them are affiliating with the Labor 
Party. 

Q. The Friends during the war supported the war, did they not? 

A. I could not answer that question yes or no, because there 
were a good many Friends who did go into the army or did take 
part in the financing of the wartime work in England. But the 
attitude of the Friends as a whole was against the war and against 
military service, and they stood out publicly on it throughout 
the war. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Their attitude, though, is not against this par 
ticular war, but against all wars. 

A. That is correct. 



523 

Q. It is a long-standing principle that the action of the indi- 
vidual Friend is a matter of personal discretion in time of war. 

A. That is correct. 

Q. And it has been recognized by the government in past wars, 
has it not, that the Society of Friends is entitled to religious ex- 
emption? 

A. It has been recognized, I would say, to a more or less degree, 
its recognition depending on how hard pressed the government was. 

Q. That was true, though, in this country that there had been a 
recognition of the Society of Friends as one of the religious organi- 
zations which on principle was opposed to military activity. 

A. That is quite true. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: How many Friends are there in Eng- 
land? Have you any idea? 

A. About 18,000; possibly 20,000. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How many are there in the United States? 

A. About 100,000. 

Q. Communicants, or members of meeting houses? 

A. Yes, about 100,000, widely scattered. 

Q. Commissioner Newman : The Society of Friends in the United 
States did not oppose military service, did they? 

A. They took the same stand that the Friends did in England. 
I myself did oppose it. I will have to make an explanation in 
order to answer that question. I will make it as briefly as possible. 
The Society of Friends does not undertake to bind their members 
as to their individual procedure. It is supposed that they in a gen- 
eral way have convictions that are in harmony with the principles 
that have been set down as the principles of the Society of Friends. 
But they are not ordered to do anything, but are supposed to follow 
their convictions. And it would simply follow that if a person did 
not in general agree with the principles of the Society of Friends, 
it would be expected that he would eventually resign. But no 
Friends were discharged or dismissed from membership because 
they took part in the war, although at the same time the official 
attitude of the Society of Friends was against participation in the 
war, or against war in any form or in any circumstances as a method 
of settling any international dispute, both now and past and future. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 

Q. Chairman Howe : Are there any other questions as to the Irish 
testimony? If not, are there any other witnesses this morning? 
Have you anybody else, Mr. Manly? 

Mr. Manly: No, I have not. 



529 

Chairman Howe: The witnesses we expected to have this week 
are still on the seas. They are on the Baltic and the Carmania. 
They were expected to land this week, so that we could continue the 
hearings today or Saturday; but neither of these boats will land 
before Sunday. The Commission expects to continue its hearings 
on Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. We cannot set a definite 
day or hour now, but they will be announced in the press. The 
hearings will be held here in the LaFayette Hotel. 

Thereupon, at 11:45 A. M., the Commission adjourned until the 
Fourth Hearings. 



FOURTH HEARINGS ON CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Before the 

AMERICAN COMMISSION ON CONDITIONS IN 
IRELAND 

Session One 

Jane Addams 

James H. Maurer 

Oliver P. Newman 

George W. Norris 

Norman Thomas COMMISSIONERS 

David I. Walsh 

L. Hollingsworth Wood 

Frederic C. Howe 

Acting Chairman 

Before the Commission, sitting in Hotel LaFayette, Washington, 
D. C, Tuesday, December 21, 1920. 

Session called to order by Chairman Howe at 10:20 A. M. 

Chairman Howe : The hearings will come to order. The hearing 
of witnesses will continue the greater part of today, tomorrow, and 
Thursday. The witnesses who have come for today in response to 
the Commission's request are two English women who have made 
a personal inquiry in Ireland, which has been embodied in a report 
printed, I understand, and distributed through their organization. 
They have kindly consented to come over here and appear before 
the Commission and give evidence. The first witness is Mrs. Robin- 
son. Mrs. Robinson, you can adjust yourself to your comfort, and 
if you can speak so that the audience can hear you, it will add to 
their comfort. 

TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANNOT ERSKINE 
ROBINSON 

Q. You will first state your name, Mrs. Robinson. 

A. Annot Erskine Robinson. 

Q. Your residence? 

A. Manchester. 

Q. Senator Norris: England? 

A. England. 

530 



531 

PURPOSE OF THE WOMEN'S INTERNATIONAL 

LEAGUE 

Q. Chairman Howe: And you are a member of an organization 
in England that made an inquiry in Ireland? 

A. Yes, the Women's International League. 

Q. What is the nature of the Women's International League? 

A. The Women's International League is a body of women which 
first came together in 1915 as the result of a congress held at The 
Hague. As a result of that congress bodies of women have been 
established in England as well as in America. The object of that 
organization was to try to establish the principle of cooperation 
in international affairs, to find some other way of settling the dis- 
putes of nations besides war. They held a conference at The Hague 
in May, 1915; and in May, 1919, a second international conference 
was held at Zurich in Switzerland, and it again discussed methods 
whereby nations could settle differences other than by war. Our 
British Section has carried on its work in Britain, and of course 
other sections have carried on their work in different countries. 

REASONS PROMPTING INVESTIGATION OF 
ATROCITIES IN IRELAND 

In the spring of 1920 the attention of the British Section 
was naturally much occupied by what was happening in Ireland. 
We believed that the principle of self-determination was a funda- 
mental right of a people to ask and have put into operation. We 
also felt that the atrocities and reprisals happening in Ireland were 
building up a tremendous state of war and hatred and hostility 
between Britain and Ireland. Because of that, and because also of 
the suffering of the women and children, we determined in August 
to send a commission of ten to Ireland to determine what was hap- 
pening, and Miss Wilkinson and myself were two of the members 
of that commission of ten. 

Q. Commissioner Wood : May I ask how you knew of the suffer- 
ing of the women and children before you went? 

A. Well, of course, it is perfectly obvious, is it not, that when 
it is reported in the newspapers that homes were being destroyed, 
that women and children are going to suffer? I do not know that 
there was any particular statement of that suffering in the news- 
papers, but perhaps it was but our own imaginations that led us to 
know that what was happening there would cause suffering among 
the women and children. We knew that reprisals had occurred, 
and that they would fall hardest upon the women and children. 



532 

Q. \ou had no information from friends in Ireland? 

A. Yes, the Irish Branch of the Women's International League 
was founded in 1915. The Irish women felt that they could not 
conscientiously set up a branch of the British Women's League. 
Miss Louie Bennett, a writer whose name you may have heard, 
became the secretary of the Irish International League. But it was 
not because of any appeal that they sent that we decided to send a 
commission to Ireland. It was as a result of our own consciousness 
of what we knew was happening. 

Q. Chairman Howe: And the British Section that you represent 
is confined to England, Scotland, and Wales? 

A. Yes. Then in October of this year we sent a delegation of 
ten women to investigate conditions in Ireland. We have distributed 
among the members of the Commission a little printed pamphlet 
that we issued as a result of that mission. 

COMMISSION'S REPORT ON CONDITIONS IN 
IRELAND ASTONISHES BRITISH PEOPLE 

On our return from Ireland on the sixteenth of October, I, as 
Organizing Secretary, arranged a large number of demonstrations 
throughout the large cities of England, at which members of the 
commission spoke and gave their impressions from their visit to 
Ireland. I think at this juncture I ought to say that the commission 
did not go as one mission. Some of us went to one part of Ireland 
and some to another; and we endeavored at these demonstrations 
to present the impressions of those members of the commission 
which had visited the different parts of Ireland. We had demon- 
strations in London and Manchester and Bristol and Newcastle and 
Edinburgh and Leeds and all the big centers of population. And 
now, since Miss Wilkinson and I are over here, the series of demon- 
strations have been continued; and one reason that we hesitated to 
come was that we wanted to stay and try to inform public opinion 
by these demonstrations. We held this series of demonstrations 
in practically all the big cities of the country. At all those meetings 
we have had very large audiences indeed. At Manchester we held 
our meeting in the Free Trade Hall, which is a very well-known 
hall, an historic place, and holds about three thousand people. 
And we have had the biggest halls in most of these big towns; and 
we found a tremendous feeling of astonishment in Britain at what 
is happening in Ireland, and a great deal of sympathy with the 
Irish people in their demand for some recognition of their 
nationality. 



533 

LIBERAL ENGLISH PAPERS INFORM PUBLIC 
ABOUT ATROCITIES IN IRELAND 

I do not know whether this is the place where I think that British 
citizens ought to make it perfectly clear that there are a great many 
influences in Britain at the present time that are working in the 
direction of obtaining some recognition of the nationality of Ire- 
land. I think — of course I have not been in the fortunate position 
of being able to see the American papers, but I should imagine 
that that is a side of British public life at present that has not been 
well reported in the American press. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Has it been in the British press? 

A. Yes. There, of course, we have some newspapers in Britain 
that have done a very great deal about publishing the facts about 
what is happening in Ireland during the last few months. I think 
we have handed in to Mr. MacDonald a series of photographs 
published by the Manchester Guardian. The Manchester Guardian 
during this spring, and particularly during September and October 
of this year, sent over four of their best photographers and also 
press reporters to Ireland, who have made it their business to go 
to each locality where atrocities have been reported to obtain photo- 
graphs and first-hand information from those who have participated 
in those outrages. The photographs Mr. MacDonald has. They 
appeared in the Manchester Guardian. The Manchester Guardian, 
of course, is a newspsaper with a very great influence in Britain in 
liberal circles. Not only the Manchester Guardian and the Daily 
News and Leader have done that, but also the Daily Herald, the 
Labor newspaper, although it has, not so much space to give in its 
columns, has reported very fully indeed the information about 
atrocities and murders in Ireland. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: What is the circulation of these papers, 
Mrs. Robinson? 

A. The Daily Herald now has 350,000, and it has a circulation 
among people who have very considerable weight in Great Britain. 

Q. But it has a circulation only among one class. 

A. Among one party, but not among one class. But I cannot 
go into the political side of it. 

Q. But I wanted to know what that meant in formulating British 
public opinion. 

A. I should state that not only the Manchester Guardian and the 
Daily News and Leader and the Daily Herald, but also the weekly 
Nation — I don't know how large its circulation is, but it has a 
circulation among some of the most thoughtful and influential peo- 



534 

pie, and it has done a very great deal of good. As to the exact 
circulation of the papers I have mentioned, the Daily Herald has a 
circulation of 350,000. You know, of course, that the Daily Herald 
is a Labor Party paper, but the Labor Party, when its new consti- 
tution was formed in 1919, extended its invitation to people who 
work with hand and brain; and it is not true to say that the Labor 
Party in England consists only of manual workers. It has also 
many representatives of professional people. It is therefore not 
true that the Daily Herald represents only one class — it represents 
one party, but it has all classes in it. Then the Manchester Guardian 
has a very great national influence. Although it is a provincial 
paper, it has a national influence, and represents national radical 
opinion. 

UNITED STATES CONSUL SEEKS TO PREVENT 

WITNESSES FROM COMING TO TESTIFY 

ABOUT IRELAND 

Q. Senator Norris: Now, Mr. Chairman, I would make an in- 
quiry of this witness that I think might be part of her preliminary 
testimony. I have understood that you ladies had some difficulty in 
getting permission to come over here. Before you go into your 
testimony proper, if you had any such difficulty, I wish you would 
tell the Commission about it. 

A. Yes. When the invitation was received from this Commis- 
sion by our national executive that we should come here to give 
evidence before this Commission, our national executive had con- 
siderable difficulty deciding whether we ought to come or ought not 
to come. Obviously, it is a difficult thing to come out of one's own 
country into another country and discuss a matter that might be 
considered in some aspects as of domestic policy. On the other 
hand, as we were international and had branches in all countries, 
we realized that the Irish question was not only a question of na- 
tional politics; it was also a question of international politics. And 
so we applied to our own Foreign Office for permission to come. 
When we applied to our own Foreign Office, the passports were 
issued without any difficulty; and we were told that our passports 
would have to be vised by the American Consul in Manchester. I 
understood that that was a mere matter of formality, and therefore 
we did not apply as early as we might have done. The steamship 
on which we came, the Baltic, came on Wednesday, the eighth; and 
on the sixth we applied at the American Consulate to have our 
passports vised. The visa is with ordinary officials supposed to go 



535 

through in the ordinary course of business; it is a mere matter of 
formality, after one's own government has issued a passport. But 
when we applied to the American Consul in Manchester to vise our 
passports, he refused. 

Q. Senator Walsh: His name, please? 

A. Mr. Wells. Mr. Wells came forward and said, "I refuse to 
vise these passports." Naturally, I was very much astonished, par- 
ticularly in my own city of Manchester, where I am very well 
known. And I said, "Mr. Wells, we cannot accept that. Would 
you mind giving me some reason for such an extraordinary re- 
fusal?" And he said, "We are not encouraging inquiries in Amer- 
ica into the state of affairs in Ireland." And I told him that I did 
n6t consider that that was a sufficient reply. And so I took the night 
train up to London, and called at the office of the American embassy 
and also on the American Consul-General. And I also saw some 
friends who had diplomatic influence in London. I was assured by 
the Consul-General 1 1 am not sure whether it was the Consul- 
General or one of his assistants) that as far as he knew, he saw no 
reason why the passport should not be vised by the American 
Consul at Manchester; but perhaps he was not satisfied with the 
bona fides of Miss Wilkinson and myself. He advised me to go 
back to Manchester and see him again. I traveled back, arriving 
in Manchester Wednesday morning. The boat sailed that afternoon. 
And Miss Wilkinson and I, with a friend, called again at the office 
of the American Consul and said that we had again come with 
reference to the passports. And then, after extracting from us a 
definite promise that we would not address meetings, engage in any 
propaganda, or grant any interviews while we were in America, he 
consented to vise our passports. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Will you repeat that, please? 

A. Having given a definite undertaking that we would not en- 
gage in any propaganda, address any meetings, or give any inter- 
views while in America, he consented to vise our passports. 

Q. What is his full name? 

A. I do not know. 

Miss Wilkinson : Mr. F. Wells. 

Q. Is he an Englishman or an American? 

A. I don't know, but I should judge by this gentleman's accent 
that he was an American, but his policy was rather English. He 
extracted from us that very definite pledge, and then we were al- 
lowed, three hours before the boat sailed, to come here. 



536 

Q. Senator Norris: Did you give that promise in writing? 

A. No. 

Q. Did he say anything to you in his conversation on either 
occasion that would give you information as to whether he was 
acting under instructions, or whether the action was taken on his 
own volition? 

A. I don't know, but the Consul-General in London said he was 
sure that he was not acting on general instructions, but on his own 
initiative. And the intimation to me was that he had some terrible 
information about Miss Wilkinson and myself. 

Q. Commissioner Newman : What information did you obtain 
from the American embassy in London? 

A. I did not see the Ambassador, but a secretary told me that 
he was very much astonished that the visa had been refused. 

Q. Senator Norris: Do you know whether the Ambassador at 
London communicated with Mr. Wells at Manchester? 

A. Yes. I asked that he should do so, and left some money to 
pay for the telegrams. 

Q. Commissioner Newman : Do you know what information he 
sent to the Consul at Manchester? 

A. I was not informed. We only can draw an inference, as we 
say in Scotland. 

Q. Commissioner Wood : Did I understand you to say that the 
embassy required you to pay money? 

A. I was asked to leave a deposit to pay for the telegrams. It 
was later refunded. I asked for it back. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did Mr. Wells in Manchester say that he 
had heard from London between Tuesday night and Wednesday 
morning? 

A. He did not say so, but I knew it indirectly. 

Q. But after hearing from London, he made you extend certain 
promises? 

A. Quite, quite. 

Q. And your mouth is sealed from talking to newspaper men? 

A. So. I might say that on the small slip of paper on which we 
were asked to put in our business for going to America, it is true 
I only wrote in the word "business," but I explained to the secre- 
tary very fully what I was going to do, and what I was going to 
state. But the Consul said, in spite of that, that we only had written 
the word "business" on that scrap of paper, and had not stated what 
that business was. But physically it was quite impossible to do so, 
for there was no room on that little piece of paper at all. 



537 

Mr. Manly: May I ask a question, Mr. Howe? 

Chairman Howe: Certainly. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Before you went to the Embassy you called upon 
some of the more prominent and influential liberals in London? 

A. Yes, but I would not care to give their names. 

Q. But you think it is very probable that they communicated 
with the Ambassador? 

A. Yes. I felt that this situation was so peculiar that I should 
use any influence that I had. 1 

INFLUENTIAL ENGLISH PERSONS AND ORGAN- 
IZATIONS PROMOTE PEACE WITH IRELAND 

Q. Senator Walsh: Now, the witness can go back to the news- 
paper matter. 

A. Yes. I was saying that the Manchester Guardian has a very 
remarkable influence in Britain, even though it is a provincial news- 
paper. As to the amount of its circulation, I don't know. The 
Daily News and Leader is at present the daily organ of the Free 
Liberals, and has a very large circulation. And these newspapers 
for the last few months, at any rate, have devoted a very large 
amount of space to the demand that the Government should recon- 
sider its policy in Ireland. Not only have the newspapers been 
doing that, but organizations like our own are acting on the same 
policy. We not only have the Women's International League, but 
also the Peace for Ireland Committee. On that committee we have 
several very well-known politicians who are sitting, and also some 
very well-known men and women. And they have been sitting in a 
committee room of the House of Commons, and they are working 
very hard, by spreading literature and propaganda, to give a knowl- 
edge of what is happening in Ireland, and creating a very definite 
public opinion on the matter. And then, of course, we have the 
Labor Party, which, as you know, has sent several missions to Ire- 
land, and is taking up the Irish question with a great deal of vigor 
at the present time. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: May I ask, for our benefit, if you 
will elaborate a little on that? Can you tell us who some of the 
people are on that Peace for Ireland Committee, and can you tell 
some of their names? 



1 Mrs. Robinson and Miss Wilkinson, at the request of the Commission, 
swore to the statements herein made concerning the attempt of U. S. 
Consul F. Wells to prevent their coming to America to testify, which 
affidavit was submitted to the U. S. Secretary of State December 23, 1920, 
for official action. 



538 

A. Yes. Mrs. H. M. Swanwick, who is a very well-known 
woman in Britain, a very well-known journalist and author, a well- 
known publicist. Lord Henry Bentinck is a member of it. He is 
a member of one of the established families, a life-long member 
of the Conservative Party, who has taken a very strong position 
indeed on this Irish matter. If any member of this Commission 
has seen the files of the London newspapers, you will see that Lord 
Henry Bentinck has asked questions almost every day on the Irish 
question at question time in the House of Commons. Sir John 
Simon is also a member — one of our best-known lawyers, and a 
leading politician; and he also has taken a very strong stand on this 
matter. Commander Kenworthy, who is a member of the House of 
Commons, a Liberal Mernber, has also devoted considerable time 
and very much attention to bringing out the facts about Ireland, 
such as he could obtain, from Sir Hamar Greenwood. And Miss 
Maud Roydon, who is perhaps known here as an eminent woman 
preacher. I should think that Miss Maud Roydon is one of ihf 
best-known women in England at the present time, and one of the 
most influential. Lord Buckmaster is also a member of it, and 
Miss Buckmaster is also acting as its secretary. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Mr. Hobson, the well-known econo- 
mist, is also a member, is he not? 

A. Yes, and Ramsay MacDonald and J. J. Mallon. 

Q. Lady Courtney? 

A. Yes, Lady Courtney, and Captain Fitzhodgings Berkeley. 

BASIS OF ANY SETTLEMENT IS SELF-DETERMI- 
NATION FOR IRISH PEOPLE 

Q. Senator Norris: I wish you would give us an idea, if you 
can, of the position that these various persons named in these vari- 
ous organizations take on the Irish question. Do they stand for 
freedom for Ireland, or for some modifications of Ireland's demand 
for freedom? 

A. I think at the moment what they stand for first and foremost 
is a reconsidering of the policy of the Government. And secondly, 
they want some settlement of the Irish question on the basis of 
granting self-determination to the Irish people. But I am quite 
certain that no further agreement would be found among these 
various names as to the form that this should take. 

Q. Senator Walsh: There probably would be some disagreement 
on that? 

A. Yes, I am quite sure there would. 



539 

Q. But they agree on these two things? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: May I bring this out further? Do 
they demand that the troops be withdrawn? 

A. Yes, they demand that the troops be at least withdrawn to 
the seaboard; but whether they agree that the troops should be 
entirely withdrawn from Ireland I could not say. I might as well 
bring out here that you find the troops going about in small iso- 
lated bodies. The railroads, as you know, have refused to carry 
munitions of war or troops that are armed. That means that the 
troops must go about from point to point sometimes in quite small 
bodies. The policemen have also done that. And that has made 
it comparatively simple for a member, say, of some secret society 
in Ireland, if some such society exists, or any Sinn Feiner, if he 
feels exasperated — it provides opportunity for the murders that 
have occurred. Many of us have felt that it was a very unfortunate 
method for the distribution of the troops in Ireland. And I am 
sure that every member of that Peace for Ireland Committee would 
say that the troops should be withdrawn at least to the seaboard, 
and that the patrolling of lonely country roads should immediately 
cease. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Would they agree to the second 
point, that Ireland should be given some kind of self-determination? 

A. Well, you see that I am not a member of that Peace for 
Ireland Committee. Therefore, while I am quite willing to answer 
general questions as to both our program and that of the Peace for 
Ireland Committee, I cannot speak with any certainty. 

Q. You understand that in asking you, we are perhaps going 
ahead of what would be done in exceedingly formal legal testimony. 
But we want information along this line. It is peculiarly important 
for us to know what is meant in England by a reversal of the Gov- 
ernment policy. Now, we know that there is probably no one 
opinion. We would be willing to assume that. But we want to 
get as clear a picture of it as possible. That is why I asked these 
questions. 

A. Yes, quite. What we, the Women's International League, 
did was to send this committee to Ireland to get first-hand informa- 
tion and the facts, as well as they could be learned, about the 
situation there. We knew that the problem could not be settled 
all at once, but we felt that there were certain first steps that should 
be taken immediately. We therefore advocated the immediate re- 
lease of Irish political prisoners and the offering of a truce, during 



540 

which all forces should be withdrawn, and the placing of responsi- 
bility for keeping order in the hands of Irish local bodies, thus 
making a situation in which the Irish people could determine their 
own form of government. And I should think you would find a 
universal opinion among those people I have mentioned that this 
should be done. 

Q. Do you mean that these organizations favor withdrawing the 
troops from Ireland? 

A. I believe that the presence of the troops in Ireland has led 
to very great bloodshed. My organization believes that they should 
at least be withdrawn to the seaboard. 

Q. Do you mean by self-determination that the Irish people 
should determine their form of government, outside or inside of the 
Empire? 

A. I do. 

Q. Does your organization? 

A. Yes. But I want to make it quite clear that I am not answer- 
ing for all these organizations, particularly the newspapers. Of 
course you must remember that a very great number of people agree 
with Mr. Asquith, who has stood for the dominion form of self- 
government. That is a point of view which I should say is much 
more widely held by the bodies of which I have spoken than the 
other point of view, when I say that I and my organization favor 
self-determination. 

Q. Senator Norris: That would mean giving Ireland the same 
kind of government that is given to Canada? 

A. Precisely. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: You would say that the home rule 
policy of the British Government scarcely represents the mind of 
England? 

A. Quite. I wonder if it would not be worth while to trace the 
stage where public opinion is at in England today? 

Chairman Howe: That would be very interesting. 

ULSTER REBELLION SUPPORTED BY ENGLISH 
ARISTOCRATS 

The Witness: Well, in 1914, before the war, when the Home Rule 
Bill was placed on the statute books, although it was never made 
operative at that time, you had Sir Edward Carson and F. I. Smith, 
now our Lord Chancellor, who were the recognized leaders of the 
Ulsterites, protesting in the name of the people in the six counties 
(it was six at that time; now it is four), who protested that they 



541 

would not accept separation from Great Britain. And you had at 
that time the Ulster Volunteers very effectively armed and drilled. 
You had up in northeast Ulster a very well drilled and disciplined 
and armed body of troops. The arms, as you know, were obtained 
partly from big firms in Britain and partly from Germany when 
you had the gun-running at Larne; and at that time the lawlessness 
in Ireland was all in the northeast of Ulster. And lawlessness in 
Ulster at that time had the support of a certain proportion of the 
aristocracy and the Conservative Party, which represented the aris- 
tocracy in Great Britain. When you talk of the northeast Ulster 
situation, you must realize that a large section of Conservative and 
aristocratic opinion in England upheld them in their open rebellion 
against the Home Rule Bill. They imported arms and got ready to 
fight against its enforcement. And then came the war. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That opinion is a powerful one? 

A. Yes, it is an important factor. 

Q. It has been more or less the ruling opinion? 

A. Yes, yes. One feels that these questions can only be an- 
swered by paragraphs. 

EXECUTIONS AND IMPRISONMENTS SOLIDIFY 
IRELAND FOR SINN FEIN 

And then after that, in 1914, came the war. And Redmond, in 
the name of Ireland, called upon Ireland in the British Parliament 
to fight for the right of small democracies. And then after that 
very little about Ireland appeared in our newspapers. Naturally, 
the war occupied the attention of the great mass of people in Great 
Britain, because, of course, the war came into our work and family 
life, perhaps more than it did in this country. And after that came 
the 1916 Rebellion. Before the 1916 Rebellion the Sinn Fein move- 
ment was not a movement whose existence was recognized by many 
poeple in Great Britain. It was a literary movement, an educational 
movement. It was not, to the knowledge of most people, a political 
movement. And then after the Rebellion you had the execution 
of the leaders, which was protracted over a good many days. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Just why were those executions protracted 
over a great many days? 

A. I don't know. 

Q. Just for terrorism? 

A. I don't know. I have no opinion. And of course the shoot- 
ings in cold blood after the Rebellion had been subdued, these 
executions natural lv aroused a very great depth of feeling in Ire- 
land. 



542 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was that without trial or court-martial? 

A. It was under courts-martial. Ireland at the time, of course, 
was under martial law. Dublin was. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: It aroused a great deal of feeling in 
Ireland, but not in England? 

A. It aroused a great feeling in England, especially in Labor 
circles, and outside of Labor circles too. 

Q. Senator Walsh: It almost immediately made Ireland Sinn 
Fein? 

A. Yes, it gave support to the growth of the Sinn Fein demand 
for absolute independence in Ireland. Before 1914 there was very 
little talk of absolute independence in Ireland. After the 1916 
Rebellion and the executions in Ireland, the demand for inde- 
pendence assumed very much greater importance, and the Sinn Fein 
movement spread. Then in 1917 and 1918 there were many arrests 
of suspected people in Ireland — people suspected of disloyal 
opinion. 

ENGLISH VIOLENCE PRECEDES SHOOTING OF 
POLICEMEN 

Q. Senator Walsh: How were these people treated? What 
method of trial did they get? 

A. Well, that is answered by this summary which I have pre- 
pared: 

In the year 1917 no policeman was killed, but the police and 
military raided private houses and arrested 394 persons for political 
opinions, deported 24 persons without charge or trial, suppressed 
meetings and newspapers, and killed several civilians. I think that 
is just as good a summary as I can give you. 1 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Deported means deported to England? 

A. Yes, deported to England and kept away from their own 
country. 

Q. Chairman Howe: That is 1917? 

A. Yes, 1917. 

Q. Senator Walsh: From what source does that information 



come 



A. From the newspapers ordinarily. 
Q. And from your investigations? 
A. No, but it is a matter of general notice. 

Miss Wilkinson: They were taken from a White Paper published 
by the House of Commons by a friend of mine. 
Senator Walsh: Very well. 



See summary in Exhibit I. 



543 

BRITISH GOVERNMENT REFUSES TO SUPPRESS 
ARMED REBELLION IN ULSTER 

Mr. Basil Manly: May I ask a question? 

Chairman Howe : Certainly. 

Q. Mr. Manly: To go back to the Ulster movement, the Carson 
movement. Is it true that Sir Edward Carson defied the Govern- 
ment to impose its Home Rule Bill on Ulster? 

A. Yes, it is true. 

Q. Is it true that an army was raised and armed by Sir Edward 
Carson to prevent its enforcement? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Previous to the war? 

A. Yes, previous to the war. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was there any action taken by the British Gov- 
ernment to suppress that revolution or rebellion? 

A. No, no action was taken. 

Q. What action did certain sections of the British Army take, 
do you recall? 

A. Yes, I recall, but my information of that was extremely hazy. 
It was said in the press, and it was not contradicted by the Gov- 
ernment, that the soldiers at the Curragh Camp in Ireland would 
refuse to try to suppress the actions of the Ulster Volunteers if 
ordered to do so. 

Q. Do you know of any punishment, any disciplinary action 
that was taken? 

A. There was none. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Now go back to 1918. 
I 

DESPITE MURDER, ARREST, AND DEPORTATION 
OF IRISHMEN, NO POLICE KILLED IN 1918 

A. In the year 1918 no police were killed. One hundred and ten 
political arrests took place. Seventy-seven persons were deported 
without trial. Fairs and markets were suppressed, and five civilians 
were killed. 

Q. Now, just for the sake of the record, is this information from 
the same source? 

A. Miss Wilkinson : Yes, taken from a White Paper. 

Q. Chairman Howe: White Paper being what, — a Government 
White Paper? 

A. Yes, published in response to a Parliamentary request. 



544 

Mrs. Robinson: \es, and il was published in the newspapers gen- 
erally throughout England and not contradicted. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do you know whether up to this time the 
British troops had been stationed in Ireland in large numbers? 

A. Well, there always have been these large British camps in 
Ireland. I do not know how many soldiers are habitually kept at 
the Curragh Camp. 

Q. In 1917 and 1918? 

A. Always. There always were. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: When you say six civilians were 
killed 

A. Five civilians. 

Q. Do you mean that they were killed by the Government forces? 

A. Yes, or by the police in skirmishes. You see, in Ireland the 
police go about heavily armed. They are always a half-militarized 
force. 

Q. Senator Walsh: And always have been? 

A. They are not a civilian force. They are half military. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: May I go back to the question from 
which we started? About the development of British opinion: what 
was happening in Great Britain? 

A. Yes, I was going on to 1918, was I not? After the armistice 
in 1918 we had a general election in December, 1918. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: May I ask, before you go on to the 
armistice, in regard to the enforcement of conscription in Ireland, 
or the non-enforcement of conscription in Ireland, and what influ- 
ence that had on British public opinion? 

A. I think Miss Wilkinson could answer that better than I. I 
am quite sure she would be very glad to deal with that as part of her 
testimony. I do not feel that my impressions are sufficiently clear- 
cut to answer that. 

COALITION'S KHAKI ELECTION VICTORY MAKES 
CARSONISM GOVERNMENT POLICY 

Q. Chairman Howe: I would like to have the witness just con- 
tinue this chronologically of what happened in Ireland. It will 
make it much clearer in the record. 

A. Yes. Then in 1918 you had the general election, and you 
had the Coalition Government returned with a tremendous majority, 
and Sir Edward Carson and his Irish policy as an integral part 
of the Government. 



545 

Q. Commissioner Addams: That is, his polity was in a way 
approved hy the election? 

A. Yes, certainly. 

Q. Mr. Manly: But the general election was not on that issue. 

A. The general election was not on that issue. But, you see, 
the Coalition group had adopted his policy as its own in the agree- 
ments reached for the formation of the Cahinet and the fight over 
the general election; and it was perfectly evident that the Irish 
policy of Sir Edward Carson was adopted as an integral part of 
the Coalition policy for the British Government in order to secure 
the votes which he undoubtedly represented in the Cabinet and in 
the Government. 

Q. Chairman Howe: I confess I have never been able to under- 
stand why Sir Edward Carson could exercise so much power and 
influence in the Government. What are the sources of his strength 
and power? 

A. I am not a member of the Cabinet. I am afraid I could not 
say. All I can say is that in order to gain the support of Sir 
Edward Carson and all the aristocratic influences he stands for, 
in order to secure that, the Coalition Government adopted as an 
integral part of its policy the policy of Sir Edward Carson in Ireland- 

Q. You were discussing the elections of 1918. 

A. Under that is the point that the Commission ought to bear 
in mind, that the election of 1918 resulted in the adoption of the 
Irish policy of Sir Edward Carson. 

Q. Senator Norris: Briefly, what was that policy? 

A. At that time it was definitely the Ulster policy. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: The Unionist policy? 

A. Yes, the Unionist policy at that time. Since then it has been 
very considerably modified. Since 1918 very considerably modified. 
Then in December, 1918, you had very definitely the Irish Parlia- 
ment elected and the Irish members of Parliament refusing to come 
to the British House of Commons, setting up an independent Par- 
liament of its own committed very definitely to Irish independence; 
while you had the Coalition Government committed to Sir Edward 
Carson's policy. And the suppressions went on in Ireland. 

REPUBLICAN ELECTION VICTORY IN IRELAND 
MARKS START OF WAR FOR INDEPENDENCE 

Q. Mr. Manly: Would it be accurate to say that the result of 
that 1918 election was that the Ulster policy secured control of the 
British Government and that the Sinn Fein policy secured control 
of the situation in Ireland? 



546 

A. Yes, as far as 82 per cent of the people of Ireland were 
concerned, the Sinn Fein policy secured the support of 82 per cent 
of the electorate of Ireland, further confirmed by the elections of 
January, 1920. The shooting of police did not begin until January, 
1919; and the claim is made that the policemen attacked were 
policemen who had been especially active in hunting down Sinn 
Feiners. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: When you say that the shooting of 
policemen did not begin until a certain date, did you get that Li- 
formation from any Government White Paper? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Senator Norris: That is an indisputable fact? 

A. Yes, that is an indisputable fact. And, of course, it rather 
points to the fact that the shooting began in Ireland as a result 
of the outrages of the preceding three years. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: At what date did the shooting begin? 

A. In January, 1919. Of course, by January, 1919, you had the 
Easter Rebellion and the execution of the leaders and the 1918 elec- 
tions, and afterwards the municipal elections of January, 1920, all 
strengthening Sinn Fein feeling in Ireland; and on the other hand, 
following the general elections, the acceptance of Sir Edward Car- 
son as a member of the British Cabinet. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That is the election of 1918? , 

A. Yes, December, 1918. 

Q. Chairman Howe: And the acceptance of Carson in the Cabi- 
net was construed by a great number of the Irish people as the 
end of dominion home rule and the end of their hopes for the 
rights of small nations? 

A. Yes, right. And also the end of the possibility of constitu- 
tional agitation. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You say that Sir Edward Carson was ac- 
cepted by the Coalition Cabinet. Was that an action agreed to by 
the English people, or was it a political trade, — certain forces got 
together and went before the electorate, and he was one of the forces 
gathered together? 

A. You could not legitimately call that a trick. 

Senator Walsh: No, a trade. 

The Witness: Yes, it was a trade. 

Senator Norris: You see, a trade in poli ics is very often a trick. 

The Witness: I presume you are a politician. 



547 

Senator Norris: No, I get that from observation. 

Commissioner Newman : He is not a politician, Mrs. Robinson, he 
is a senator. 

Senator Norris: That makes it still worse. 

The Witness: Well, trade or trick, it was a legitimate deal for 
the Coalition Government as far as those things go. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What I wanted to bring out was whether the 
mind of the people of England was concentrated on rendering a ver- 
dict on the outcome of the war, and the people were not mindful 
of the Irish issue. 

A. To a very great extent, that is exactly what happened. The 
1918 election was fought on war issues. 

Q. And yet the make-up of the Coalition Government was such 
that it very definitely included a suppression of the home rule 
aspirations of the Irish people. 

A. Yes, that is a fact. 

Senator Walsh : That is the first time that has been presented to us. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Would it be true to say that war 
psychology determined that election; that the cry was to make 
Germany pay the cost of the war and hang the Kaiser, but the re- 
sult was reaction in England? 

UNINFORMED ENGLISH PUBLIC NOT AWARE OF 
IRISH CRISIS 

A. Yes, that is what happened. But for myself I should not 
put it so crudely. I don't think that the average English elector in 
that election gave a thought to Ireland. I don't think that one elector 
out of a hundred was at all concerned with Ireland at all. But the 
master minds behind the election were. And that, therefore, when 
those atrocities began in Ireland, the average Britisher had no clew 
whatever as to why those atrocities should begin. And to the aver- 
age British mind there is a very great repugnance to secret murder, — 
that is, murder in lonely places. The difference in the psychology 
between the two races might account for that. The average Brit- 
isher, however brutal he might be, would not resort to secret murder. 
And then when in 1919 those secret murders began, t it created a 
state of feeling against Ireland which still continues. I hope I have 
made that clear, for it is a very important thing. 

Commissioner Addams: You have made it very, very clear. 

The Witness: You see, our newspapers had been very reticent 
about what was happening in Ireland. We did not see why the 
situation in Ireland should be so desperate, why policemen were 



548 

being shot, why these outrages occurred. Of course, the ordinary 
people thought we were treating Ireland quite well, and could not 
understand. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Do you want to rest a moment, Mrs. Rob- 
inson? 

A. No. But that is the end of that chronology. 

PUBLIC MEETINGS IN ENGLAND TO INFORM 
PEOPLE. 

Q. You left some matters in regard to the organizations in Eng- 
land that are investigating the Irish question uncompleted. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Just what steps are they taking in regard to the Irish ques- 
tion, — the Peace for Ireland Committee and your own organization 
and the Labor organization? 

A. Well, I have already indicated that our own organization is 
carrying on and actively conducting propaganda in public meet- 
ings. The Peace for Ireland Committee is holding wonderful public 
meetings also. They had a meeting in Manchester at which Sir 
John Simon spoke, and it drew one of the largest audiences I have 
seen there for any occasion. 

BRITISH GOVERNMENT IN IRELAND BROKEN 
DOWN SINCE 1918 

Q. Senator Walsh: I am afraid that we interrupted you at the 
time of the elections in 1918. There is an intervening two years 
that is not covered. What was the development of opinion for the 
next two years? 

A. Oh, yes. We came down to January, 1919, and the begin- 
ning of those atrocities. You had, of course, the Irish Parliament. 
Their M. P.'s did not come over to Britain, but organized their 
own Parliament in Dublin. Then you had further unrest and fur- 
ther oppression. And you see, we have reached the situation that 
exists today. I don't think there is anything of value to add to 
that sketch. I should think that what has happened since January, 
1919, is what the Commission already knows. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Well, assume the Commission does not 
know, Mrs. Robinson. 

A. Well, beginning with January, 1919, you had a number of 
great movements of troops over to Ireland heavily armed. Those 
troops began the raids and the hunting up of Sinn Feiners. Then 
you had the complete breakdown of the British government over 



549 

the greater part of Ireland, and the growth of the Sinn Fein gov- 
ernment, until you really have today two governments in Ireland, 
the Sinn Fein Government and the British Government. I spoke 
to someone who is in touch with the military in Ireland, and that 
was the expressed opinion of a man in fairly high position in the 
Army, that you have got two governments in Ireland, the Sinn Fein 
Parliament, of which Miss Wilkinson can speak much more accu- 
rately than I ; and you have the British Government. And you have 
this policy of atrocities and reprisals. That is the situation now. 

PERSONAL OBSERVATIONS IN ULSTER 

Q. Senator Norris: Then you think you are down to the place 
where you can describe to this Commission what you actually saw? 

A. Yes. I shall not attempt to cover all of Ireland. I think 
Miss Wilkinson could describe conditions in the south and west. 
I did not visit those parts. 

Q. But you could tell yourself what you saw in the parts you 
did visit. 

A. Yes, in Ulster. 

Q. Chairman Howe: May I raise one more question about public 
opinion in England? You said awhile ago that the original Sir 
Edward Carson policy has been modified by events. 

A. Yes. Perhaps I can better explain that with my own expe- 
riences in Ulster. 

Q. Yes, perhaps. But I only wanted to know, before you closed 
your testimony, why a policy based on absolute Unionism should 
become changed to something else. 

A. Yes, I think that can be covered by my experiences in north- 
east Ulster, where in October I visited Belfast and Lisburn. 

Q. Senator Walsh: This year? 

A. Yes, this year. 

Q. Senator Norris: When you were a member of that committee? 

A. Yes. I visited northeast Ulster because I believe that a 
possibility of settlement lies in northeast Ulster. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Will you just give your experiences 
in Ireland then? 

A. Yes, I think that will be best. The members of the Com- 
mittee who went to Ulster were Mrs. Catherine Chisholm, M. Mew- 
hort, Mrs. Agnes Dollan, and I. 

Q. These were all English women? 

A. Two of them are English and two Scotch. While we were 



550 

there we interviewed a good many people, a considerable number 
of Belfast city councillors, leaders of the Unionist Party. The co- 
operative movement is very strong in that part of Ireland. We 
devoted a fair amount of time and attention to the leaders of the 
cooperative movement and the leaders of the Cooperative Guild. 
Then we interviewed a considerable number of the Expelled Work- 
ers' Committee (I shall explain later what that is), and a number 
of representative citizens, so as to try to get an all-around view of 
the situation. In Belfast at the present time there is a very great 
number of soldiers, heavily armed, to be seen in the streets, and 
a very great number of heavily armed constables. Every town you 
come across is an exhibition of force, of military force. From all 
of those sources we got a pretty consecutive narrative as to what 
had been happening recently in Belfast. There was agreement as 
to facts, but there was not agreement as to the deductions from 
the facts. 

UNIONISTS LOSE HOLD IN BELFAST ELECTIONS 

In the local elections this spring in Belfast, which were held 
under the proportional representation act, for the first time a 
breach was made in the domination of the Unionist Party in the 
City Council. Out of sixty councillors elected, twenty-five repre- 
sented Nationalists and Labor and Sinn Fein and Socialist opinion, 
— twenty-five out of sixty. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: You mean twenty-five out of sixty? 

A. Yes, twenty-five out of sixty. Up to this time there had been 
an unquestioned domination of the Unionists. This was a very great 
section of different opinion which appeared to act more or less 
together as a group. 

SEMI-LITERATE BELFAST POPULATION 
MANIPULATED BY POLITICIANS 

The reasons which were given for this very extraordinary change 
in public opinion in Belfast were rather conflicting. I think for a 
moment I had better digress. In Belfast, of course, you have a 
very strong Protestant feeling. On the gable ends of cottage houses 
you will find a huge painting. You will find these paintings out- 
side nearly all the public houses. They are all the same. There 
is a large figure representing a man in a riding coat, bigger than 
life, with a cocked hat and brilliant feathers, crossing a bright blue 
stream with green banks. You will find that all over Belfast. And 
above it is written, "William III Crossing the Boyne, 1690." In 



551 

the streets of Belfast in school hours a very great number of chil- 
dren were to be seen, children of school age. As a teacher before 
my marriage, I was very much struck by that fact — the enormous 
number of children of school age that were in the streets of Belfast 
during school hours. And I made it my business to find out from 
a very well-known Belfast woman what was the reason for it. I 
was told that there were not nearly enough school accommodations 
in Belfast for the Protestant children, and that had been true for a 
great many years. That lady said that between two and three thou- 
sand school places were short in Belfast. That means that in the 
Protestant population of Belfast you are producing a semi-literate 
population, and they are being educated by these oil paintings. 
William III has been made a political figure, and it has produced 
in Belfast a population that is very easily manipulated by the 
politicians. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: This school question has come up 
once before. The schools in Belfast are not built by public money. 
Can you tell us something about that? 

A. You see, in England and Scotland there are school rates, 
which is a very important part of educational money. And that is 
supplemented by the national grants. In Belfast there is no rate 
for educational purposes. Although Belfast is a very wealthy city, 
there are no adequate provisions for education. 

Q. Are there denominational schools in Belfast? 

A. Yes, of course. The Catholic children and the Protestant 
children do not go to the same schools. And, curiously enough, 
the Catholic population of Belfast is very much better educated 
than the Protestant population. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What is the reason for that? Is it because 
the Catholic Church is more active and more concerned in pro- 
viding education in schools? 

A. Yes, it is more concerned in providing schools for its chil- 
dren. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: It is more accustomed to doing that, 
I suppose. 

A. Yes. But, regardless of the reason, for a long time this is 
the fact: you have an insufficient number of school places for 
Protestant children, and not enough really for. Catholic children. 

Q. Senator Norris: The Protestant schools are provided for by 
the Protestants? 

A. No, by some sort of grant. I do not know how, exactly. 

Q. Are the Catholic schools provided for in the same way? 



552 

A. Yes, but the Catholic schools, I imagine, have been more 
largely supplemented by private subscriptions. 

UNSCHOOLED CHILDREN BECOME CHEAP MILL 

LABOR 

► 

Q. Mr. Manly: May I ask a question? Are the industries in 
Belfast of a character to employ a large number of small children? 

A. Yes, but they are not even employed at that. They are chil- 
dren running about the streets doing odd jobs. 

Q. How old are the children? 

A. Well, eight, nine, or up to twelve. 

Q. Would they be permitted to work in the mills? 

A. Not in England. 

Q. In Ireland? 

A. As far is I know, they would not. 

Q. So there is a supply of child labor ready for the mills from 
this source? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Are the mill owners in Belfast active in politics? Have they 
dominated the government of Belfast? 

A. Yes, undoubtedly the mill owners and the leading Unionists 
have been in control of the government of Belfast. 

Q. Might not that be the reason for the failure to provide suffi- 
cient educational facilities? 

A. Yes, I think so. But the point I wish to make is that you 
have had for a long number of years a semi-literate population 
which has been educated by these paintings and political speeches. 
I think that accounts for the ignorant population of Belfast, and 
the ease with which they can be manipulated. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: But the same educational provisions 
do not apply to Ireland as to England? 

A. No. As a matter of fact, the Educational Act of Scotland 
is different from that of England. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Do not some of these children get 
part-time education? 

A. I could find no trace of that. 

Q. No trace of that? 

A. Yes, no trace of it. You see, a tradition in education has 
much to do with education. A certain section of Belfast does not 
worry about schooling, and you have an illiterate population. 

Q. Chairman Howe: You said between two and three thousand 
seats short? 



553 

A. Yes, between two and three thousand. This lady told me 
that the accommodations for the scohol children were about two to 
three thousand places short. 

SCANDALOUS WAGES PAID WOMEN AND 
CHILDREN IN BELFAST MILLS 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Have you during your investigations 
found out the average standard of wages for child workers in those 
mills? 

A. The wages for children in the Belfast mills we did not go 
into, but of course notoriously the wages paid to women and chil- 
dren in the mills of Belfast have been a public scandal. They 
have been very scandalously underpaid. That has been true for 
years. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Mr. Maurer, do you not think that we ought 
to go into that industrial question separately? 

Commissioner Maurer: Well, I just thought that this might be 
connected up with the school question — the supply of child labor. 

POLITICAL CHANGE IN BELFAST DUE TO 
LABOR IMMIGRATION AND ORGANIZATION 

The Witness: During the war there was a period of very, very 
great industrial activity in Belfast. You had then linen mills and 
shipyards working as hard as they could work. You l\ad many 
new people coming into Belfast during the war period. You had an 
infiltration of people with new ideas. And I think this infiltration 
of people with new ideas had very much to do with the change in 
the Belfast situation at the last election of the city council. Aside 
from that has been the very great activity among labor unions in 
Belfast. In Belfast the workers are very well organized, — unions 
like the engineers, or the carpenters and joiners, or the big unskilled 
workers' union, or the electrical workers' union, — bodies having 
their headquarters in England, although the local bodies are in 
Belfast. Well, you had a tremendous growth of trade unionism 
in Belfast. And in the spring of 1919 there was a strike carried 
through in Belfast for a forty-four-hour week; and in that strike 
the Roman Catholics and the Protestant Unionists and the Nation- 
alists stood side by side. The unions for the first time were able 
to get united action between the workers of Belfast. That in my 
mind is an important factor — the very great growth of trade unions 
and labor feeling, as evidenced in the elections. 



554 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Will you repeat the date of this suc- 
cessful strike? 

A. March, 1919. I don't know whether the strike was successful 
or not. The success that I am emphasizing is that you got all the 
workers to come out together and fight together in this one big 
strike. As to what the result of the strike was I did not take the 
trouble to ascertain. 

GROWTH OF NATIONAL FEELING IN ULSTER 

And then, as well as that, there was a great growth of national 
feeling. The Unionist began to feel himself an Irishman before 
he was an Unionist; and he was very nearly as critical of the Eng- 
lish Government as the Nationalist, — for different reasons he was 
extremely critical of the English Government. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was Belfast put under martial law at the time 
of that strike, do you remember? 

A. Not as far as I know. I do not think so. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: When you say Unionist in this case it 
is referring to the labor organizations? 

A. No, I mean Unionists in politics. Perhaps Orangemen would 
be better. The Orangeman was as critical of the English Govern- 
ment as was the Nationalist; and the Orangeman was beginning to 
realize that he was an Irishman as well as the Nationalist. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Do you want to elaborate that? 

A. I cannot elaborate it beyond saying that it was an opinion 
expressed to me by a great many prominent people in Belfast. But 
I want to say that the political change in the position of Sir Edward 
Carson and the support of Carson to the Home Rule Bill has been 
influenced by the forces of which I spoke. 

Q. What changed the attitude of the Unionists and the Ulsterites 
toward the British Government? 

A. Well, the feeling that they are Irishmen. They did not ap- 
prove of the suppression in Ireland. 

Q. They too are protesting against that? 

GROWTH OF TRADE UNIONISM THREATENS HOLD 
OF CARSONISM ON ULSTER 

A. To a certain extent; although I do not want to minimize the 
feeling that exists between Unionist and Nationalist. But to a great 
extent labor policy is acting as a solvent for that extreme bitterness 
and hatred. 

The growth of a feeling of nationalism in Ireland is perhaps best 



555 

indicated by the local elections of 1920, which left only four coun- 
ties in northeast Ulster with a Unionist majority. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Out of how many? 

A. Nine. And you know that in the Home Rule Bill before 
Parliament at the present time that a separate Parliament is to 
function for four counties of Ulster instead of six counties com- 
prising the Unionist stronghold. To these Unionist counties Fer- 
managh and Tyrone have been added by the bargaining of Sir 
Edward Carson, although they are not Unionist counties. They 
are Nationalist counties with farmer constituencies. These six coun- 
ties are coming under the Ulster Parliament because, in my opinion, 
there is a very real danger that when that Ulster Parliament is set 
up, you will have a majority of the Labor Party in the Ulster 
Parliament. Fermanagh and Tyrone have been included to be sure 
you will have an Ulster Parliament which Labor cannot control. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Those two counties are not Unionist? 

A. No. Politically they are Nationalist, but economically they 
are capitalist and not labor, because of their agricultural holdings. 
And when the division comes between capital and labor, Tyrone 
and Fermanagh can be depended upon for some time to support 
the capital side rather than the labor side. When this Home Rule 
Bill was being discussed in the House of Commons, Sir Edward 
Carson insisted that this Parliament should have no power to make 
a levy on capital — on capital wealth — and that point was insisted 
upon by Sir Edward Carson. 

The point I wish to make is that Carsonism and Unionism are 
becoming the stronghold of capitalism and aristocratic feeling; but 
their hold is being threatened by the growth of trade unionism. 

Commissioner Maurer: Let us be careful that the record does not 
get trade unionism confused with political LTnionism. 

BASIS OF BELFAST SHIPYARD RIOTS NOT 
RELIGIOUS BUT POLITICAL 

The Witness: As a result of these twenty-five people being re- 
turned to the Belfast City Council who were not Orangemen, open 
threats of retaliation were made by the Orange leaders. That was 
in June. And then July twelfth came, which is the anniversary ol 
William Ill's crossing of the Boyne, and very often you have riots 
at that time. Citizens of Belfast told me that they looked forward 
with sickening apprehension of what might happen at that time, 
because of the great tension of this local election. But when July 
twelfth came, there was no trouble, no riots at all. But on July 



556 

twenty-first riots occurred in the great shipyards of Belfast. The 
shipyards, as you know, stand on an island and are separated from 
the mainland by a channel two hundred feet wide. On July twenty- 
first inflammatory speeches were made by speakers at the gates of 
the shipyards, and immediately after that the Orange workers 
turned upon their Nationalist fellow-workers and expelled some- 
thing like four thousand of them from the yards. Some of the men 
tried to swim the channel, but were met by stones on the other side 
so that they could not land, and had to come back. Some of them 
spent hours in the water. Some of them, of course, were killed. 
This strike spread to the linen mills, where the Orange workers also 
expelled their Nationalist fellow-workers. This went on until, when 
I was in Belfast in October, more than twenty thousand expelled 
workers and their families were living on relief. That is, for more 
than four months they had been refused the elemental right to earn 
a living because of their political views. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were these expulsions limited to Sinn Feiners 
and Nationalists? 

A. So far as I know. 

Q. I note by the report, page two, that the expelled workers 
were either Nationalists, or those with Labor, Socialist, or Sinn Fein 
sympathies, whether Catholic or Protestant, as well as those expelled 
on religious grounds. 

A. Yes, that is strictly accurate. 

Q. That would seem to indicate, would it not, that this was not 
a matter strictly of politics, but is rather a matter of industrial 
purposes? 

A. Yes, that is so. We have been asked in Great Britain to 
regard those riots in Belfast, when they have occurred, as an ex- 
pression of religious and sectarian bitterness. Our people have 
read reports in their newspapers that the Protestants have expelled 
the Roman Catholics. The point I wish to make is that, although 
those riots are no new thing in Belfast, they were this time 
much more political than ever before. People were not expelled 
because they were Roman Catholics. They were expelled because 
they were Nationalists or Labor or Socialists in their point of view. 
The point should not be overlooked that more and more the Orange 
employee is becoming a supporter of capitalism as against the 
classes of labor. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Behind this outbreak, what were the forces? 

A. The Unionist and Orange headquarters in Belfast. 

Q. So that it was entirely supported by political organizations? 

A. Yes, in my opinion. 



557 

Q. Commissioner Addams: People were killed in those riots, 
were they not? 

A. Yes. And then that night, on July twenty-first, there were 
more riots. In Belfast you have had the custom of Protestants 
living in certain parts of the town and Catholics living in other 
parts of the town. During the six years of the war that custom had 
been broken down, because of the incoming of so many new work- 
ers, and the people were much more mixed up. That night the 
women in one of these quarters heard about the riots that had 
occurred in the shipyards, and the rumor reached them that two 
hundred men had been drowned in the channel. The women armed 
themselves with stones, — the side streets in Belfast are paved with 
cobble stones. These women armed themselves with cobbles and 
waited for the men coming back from work. They stoned the tram 
cars continuously, and many of the men were injured. And riots 
of this kind between Orangemen and Nationalists, between Catholics 
and Protestants, have sporadically occurred ever since July twenty- 
first in Belfast. 

POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS DIFFERENCES 

ENCOURAGED BY EMPLOYERS TO BREAK 

LABOR SOLIDARITY 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You said that during the war labor 
was well organized in Belfast? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Are they still well organized? 

A. Well, you see, this is the most extraordinary condition you 
have in Belfast, — the most extraordinary situation I know of. You 
had carpenters and joiners working side by side, some Nationalist 
and some Unionist, who were members of the same labor union. 
And then you had members of the same union expelling other 
fellow-workmen and denying them the right of earning a livelihood, 
which of course is an elemental right. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: On political or religious grounds? 

A. Both. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Was not the feeling that some of 
them were going to lose their jobs at the back of it? 

A. Probably, but it was not a dominant factor. 

Q. If employment had continued as it was during the war, would 
there have been any riots? 

A. I asked that, and I was assured that the shipyards were still 
very busy making up for the ravages of the submarines. I asked 



558 

that, and I was told that there was no great unemployment in 
Belfast. 

Q. But you would think that the employers would not want 
such a situation. 

A. Yes, but the excess profits tax entered in. Their profits were 
being taken from them. 

Commissioner Thomas: British imperialism is just like every 
other imperialism the world over. They don't want to pay the 
expenses of the wars caused by their own system. 

Q. Senator Walsh: There is an opinion in America that when 
the capitalistic members of a party see movements in that party 
tending to weaken their strength and influence, they raise financial, 
racial or religious issues that divert the mind of the voters, — the 
forward-looking voters of the laboring class, — and put them back 
into their own political organization by the cry of race or religion. 
That seems to be true elsewhere too. 

A. Yes. 

Q. I have been wondering if this employing class were not 
endeavoring to maintain their power by reviving feeling that was 
dying down. 

A. Yes, I think that is true. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Did you get any first-hand evidence 
of that? 

A. Well, I heard it expressed. The only evidence I have is that 
I heard that expression by a great many people in Belfast, people 
for whose judgment I have great respect. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Did you get any information from 
employers that there is a danger that they were raising something 
they would not be able to handle later on? 

A. No. But there is this: that in some of the shipyards there 
have been established by the Orange workers what are known as 
Vigilance Committees. Those Vigilance Committees meet on the 
firm's time. They meet in rooms provided by the firm. And they 
discuss on what grounds a workman may be allowed to earn a 
living. They ask a workman to produce his baptismal certificate, 
or the baptismal certificate of his. children or wife, for that matter, 
so that he must be beyond suspicion. If the employers are willing 
to provide the time and accommodations for these workmen to 
make these investigations, it shows a great deal of sympathy behind 
them from the employers. 



559 

SIR EDWARD CARSON'S ECONOMIC INTERESTS IN 

BELFAST 

Q. Commissioner Thomas : May I ask what Sir Edward Carson 
was doing during all this in Ireland? 

A. He was very comfortable in England. 

Q. Did he say anything about it? 

A. No, he didn't wish to have anything to say. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What are his connections? 

A. He is very closely associated with the aristocratic section of 
England, and his interests are with that class. 

Q. He is a barrister, is he not? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Manly: He has been the attorney for the large corpora- 
tion interests in Belfast, has he not? 

A. Yes, I understand so. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Did his Solemn League and Cove- 
nant, as such, figure in these riots? 

A. No, not as such. 

Q. How far has his interest in Protestants as such made him 
reconcile himself as to the fate of the Protestants in the rest of 
Ireland? 

A. So far as I know, he is not interested in them and has taken 
no part in their fate. 

Q. So far as Protestants in the rest of Ireland are concerned, he 
is not interested? 

A. Yes. Miss Wilkinson has evidence that the Protestants in 
other sections of Ireland are not at all persecuted. 

DIFFICULT POSITION OF BELFAST LABOR 
UNIONS 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You spoke about the committees in 
the mills, in the textile mills. 

A. Yes, and in the shipyards. 

Q. Do you know whether the labor unions still exist in these 
places? 

A. The labor unions are in a very, very difficult position. They 
still exist, and the national headquarters are very much concerned 
with the situation. The Carpenters' and Joiners' Union, which is 
one of our very old and very well-organized trade unions, has been 
particularly active in this matter. When the expulsions took place, 
the national executive came over and had a sitting in Belfast. They 
called a meeting of the whole trade in Belfast. The carpenters and 



560 

joiners, of course, are a very important part of shipbuilding, and 
have a large number of well-paid workers. They called a meeting 
and engaged a hall to consider the situation. And the meeting was 
prohibited by the competent military authorities. The meeting was 
prohibited and could not be held. They again tried to hold a meet- 
ing and failed. And now they have taken a ballot. They said that 
if some of the members were to be expelled all must be called out. 
Those who remained at work are now regarded as scabs and black- 
legs, and are not entitled to further union work. That is how they 
have dealt with the situation. I don't think there is anyone more 
unhappy in Belfast than the average trade union official. He is in 
a very difficult situation. 

Q. Senator Norris: I want to ask about this report on the desk. 

A. Yes. 

Q. It was signed by these officials of your organization, includ- 
ing yourself? 

A. Yes. 

Q. This is the report that the committee that went over to Ireland 
made to this organization in London? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And this is the result of this investigation in Ireland by the 
Women's International League? 

A. Yes. 

Senator Norris: I think, Mr. Chairman, it ought to be read or 
printed as part of this testimony. 

Chairman Howe: Some of it will be read. 

Senator Walsh: I move that it be printed at the end of the testi- 
mony of both these ladies. 

Senator Norris: This ought to be printed, because it is probably 
as concise a report of this investigation as the ladies could give here. 
A great many will probably read that. 1 

BELFAST UNIONIST LEADERS SPURN REST OF 

IRELAND BECAUSE OF CITY'S 

ALLEGED SUPERIORITY 

The Witness: I think I ought to say that also in Belfast we inter- 
viewed several Orange leaders and tried to ascertain their point of 
view, why this sectarian bitterness had been continued so long, and 
why we could not achieve peace between the different sections. I 
am a Scotch woman, of course, and we have certain parts of Scot- 



1 The report referred to was duly incorporated in the evidence. See 
page 621 hereof. 



561 

land where the Reformation never reached. We still have Roman 
Catholic sections up in the remoter parts of Scotland where there 
has been Catholicism ever since Christianity came to Scotland. 1 
never in my life heard of any bitterness between these sections, — 
even in Scotland, where we take our religion very seriously. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: You yourself are a Presbyterian, be- 
ing Scotch? 

A. Yes. The other lady with me was also a Scotch Presbyterian. 
I do not think any of our Commission was Catholic. We had a 
member from the Society of Friends, but as far as I know, we had 
no Catholic on the Commission. And I asked one of these Orange 
leaders to state in a few sentences what he considered the Orange 
position was. And very briefly it was this: that Belfast was the 
largest city in Ireland. (It was the largest city in the world, ac- 
cording to some.) It was the largest city in Ireland; it had the 
largest shipyards; the largest distilleries and factories, and various 
things of that kind, — it was a very important and very large city. 
And the next thing they always said was that it had the lowest rates, 
ten shillings to the pound, compared with sixteen shillings in Dub- 
lin, and I am not sure about Cork. And that, of course, was because 
Belfast was a city of successful business men. They felt that the 
people of Dublin had no business capacity; and if the country was 
to be governed from Dublin, the country would be ruined within 
five years. I tried to point out that I have been very much inter- 
ested in the tuberculosis problem; I was interested in education and 
in the wages of women, and so forth; and that I have always heard 
that you have a very high rate of death from tuberculosis in Belfast, 
— I think it is the highest in the British Isles, — and a very high 
rate of infant mortality, and very low wages to women; and that I 
thought it would be better to raise the rates and get rid of these 
things. Yet the fact remains that the average Orangeman thinks 
that Belfast is a very prosperous city, and that its rates are low, 
and for this reason they will not be joined with the rest of Ireland. 
And then one later proceeded to say that they would wade knee- 
deep in blood before they would be associated with the rest of 
Ireland. Orangeism in Belfast is becoming more and more asso- 
ciated with capitalism, with the money interests, with the big em- 
ploying class. 

Q. Senator Norris: When you say the rates are low, what do 
you mean? 

A. The rates are local taxes, — taxes on rentals. I think our 
rates in Manchester are nineteen shillings on the pound. In Belfast 
they are only ten shillings. 



562 

Q. Commissioner Wood: That means that you must pay ten 
shillings on every pound of rent you pay? 

A. No, no, no. Perhaps I ought to say ratable value. If my 
house was rated at twenty pounds, I would pay ten pounds to the 
city in Belfast. 

Q. In other words, the inhabitant pays rent to the landlord and 
rates to the city. It depends upon what his house is rated as to 
how much he pays the city in taxation? 

A. Yes, quite. 

OPPOSITION TO UNION WITH REST OF IRELAND 
SPRINGS FROM CAPITALIST CLASS 

Q. Major Newman: Did these Orange leaders also bring out 
that they were afraid of religious domination by the rest of Ireland? 

A. Yes, of course. But I was surprised to find that it was much 
more an economic question than the question of religious domina- 
tion, when you talked to them in private. 

Q. Who were these Orange leaders you talked with? 

A. I have their names in case I was asked. Several of them 
were city councillors representing the Orangemen on the city 
council. 

Q. In private life were they employers? 

A. Yes. One man I was asked to eat with was a brother of one 
of the leading lawyers of Belfast, and also president — voluntary 
president of one of the cooperative societies. That was one of the 
business men. 

Q. You raised the point that you are of the opinion that the 
opposition was largely among the capitalistic class. 

A. Yes, largely. 

Q. What I wanted to get at was the information on which you 
base that. 

A. Well, very largely the size of the rates. The lowness of the 
rates and the size of the rates are what occupy the big business men 
rather than a person who does not have very much money. The cry 
in our country, "Keep down the rates," is the cry of the very con- 
servative business man. I do not suppose it is confined to our 
country. 

DESTRUCTION OF HOMES MAKES OVERCROWDED 
HOUSING CONDITIONS IN BELFAST 

In Belfast, again, there has been a very great deal of destruction 
of homes in these raids. A very great part of the city has been 



563 

destroyed, or else burned out. You have public houses looted and 
burned, and shops looted and burned. You have had a very great 
deal more destruction of property in Belfast, — mostly these work- 
ingmen's homes, — than I had thought of. The result was that you 
had two or three families crowd into one house. Housing condi- 
tions were very bad in Belfast before. The overcrowding that has 
been caused by this destruction of property has caused a very seri- 
ous situation indeed. And then into Belfast have gone the refugees 
from Lisburn. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Would this overcrowding in Belfast be 
confined to one quarter, or would it be general? 

A. No, to a great extent it would be in the Nationalist quarters, 
since the houses were destroyed there. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Who participated in those riots? 

A. They were participated in very largely by the people. 

PARTIZAN ADMINISTRATION OF LAW AND ORDER 
IN BELFAST 

Q. Were there police there also? 

A. Yes. You see, in Belfast after the hours of curfew the city 
is entirely in the hands of the military and the police. The Orange 
workmen were heavily armed in 1914, and those arms have never 
been confiscated. A certain proportion of the Orange workmen go 
heavily armed to work, carrying their revolvers, which can be 
plainly seen through the dungaree suits that they use. We were 
rather surprised because the workmen had those arms, and I asked 
them why they carried them; and they said it was to protect them- 
selves against the Nationalists. Then at night, after darkness comes, 
the soldiers and police go to the Nationalist quarters searching for 
arms. They do not go to the Orange quarters. I have not found 
one instance of their going to search Orange houses. They go in 
the darkness, of course. And it is said, — and I think quite likely, 
because it is dark and they are very often partly drunk, — that very 
horrible things occur. 

Q. Commissioner Wood : So the destruction is more confined to 
these Nationalist or Catholic quarters? 

A. Almost entirely. I spent a whole week walking around Bel- 
fast trying to find that out. Only where the quarters joined each 
other would there be some overlapping. 

Q. Commissioner Newman : That is the custom for them to be 
segregated, is it? 

A. Yes. 



564 

Q. Senator Walsh: You say some very violent things have 
happened? 

A. Yes, that is what I heard. 

Q. And impropriety against women? 

A. No. I made a special point to ask about that, and I did not 
hear of one single instance about that. 

Q. Can you dilate upon that a little? 

A. I would rather not. You see, I didn't see any of that myself. 
And although I was convinced of the truth of many of the brutali- 
ties reported to me, I do not see that it would serve any good 
purpose to relate them to this Commission. 

Q. Are you convinced that soldiers and police armed by the 
authority of the government have committed brutalities against 
innocent women and children? 

A. Oh, yes, quite. These houses were burned, you see, and 
women very sick and very ill and children were turned out on a 
moment's notice; women in bed connected with childbirth, and 
things of that kind. Some horrible things have occurred, — perfectly 
dreadful. 

SURPRISING GROWTH OF SINN FEIN MOVEMENT 
AMONG BELFAST PROTESTANTS 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Mrs. Robinson, did you find any evi- 
dence of personal friendships breaking over these barriers and these 
prejudices? 

A. Oh, yes, quite, quite. Protestants and Catholics who are 
Nationalists and Sinn Feiners are quite friendly. And there is a 
very strong Sinn Fein movement in Belfast. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Among Protestants? 

A. Yes, Protestants and Catholics work together in the Sinn 
Fein movement. 

Q. Chairman Howe: The Sinn Fein movement in Belfast is 
working underground? 

A. Yes, underground entirely. I do not understand how it is 
so successfully done. 

Q. It has reached up among the business and professional 
classes? 

A. Yes, yes. 

Q. Senator Walsh: You say that is one of the things that sur- 
prised you? 

A. Yes, I do not understand how it has been done. It is impos- 
sible to quote any figures, but I was surprised at the extent it had 
been done. 



565 

Q. Commissioner Newman : Is it quite general among the 
Protestant workers? 

A. I would not say quite general. One cannot say, because no 
one in Belfast goes around advertising the fact that he is a Sinn 
Feiner. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Did you find any evidence, I meant, 
of very real friendship between Catholics and Protestants, and 
where they protected each other? 

A. Yes, yes. There are very beautiful instances of the protec- 
tion of each other by reason of their personal friendships. 

BAD CONDITIONS AMONG WOMEN MILL WORKERS 
AND IN HOUSING 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You spoke of the conditions of 
women workers in Belfast. What were they? 

A. Yes, there were very dreadful conditions among women em- 
ployees of the linen mills; and also in the housing conditions in 
Belfast. 

Q. I think it would be well for you to describe what sort of 
housing conditions you found. 

A. There are two and four rooms. A very common type is 
what is called the kitchen type, with two rooms in front and a 
couple of rooms up on back; and very large families sleep in these 
rooms. The kitchen house is a very normal type of working-class 
house in Belfast, — two up and two down. 

Q. Did many of them sleep in the cellar? 

A. Perhaps. Yes. 

Q. Are these houses generally owned by the mill owners? 

A. Not as far as I know. I do not know. There was no control 
by the mill owner; but the connection between the house and mill 
was not very close, — not like you would find in the mining districts, 
for example, where the mine company owns the houses, you see. 

BOY SOLDIERS IN IRELAND NERVOUS AND 
HYSTERICAL 

I should like at this point to say that we were all very much 
impressed by the youth and inexperience of the soldiers in Belfast. 
Actually boys, — boys of seventeen and eighteen. None of them 
looked like men. 

Q. Senator Norris: Where were they from? 

A. From London, in England. These boys, these boy soldiers, 
I think, are the most pitiable figures in Ireland at this time. 



566 

Q. Senator Walsh: Why? 

A. Well, they are boys. They have been brought straight from 
home, and with no knowledge of life. They are under military 
discipline, and. believe they are in the midst of a hostile population. 
Many of them are absolutely nervous and hysterical. 

Q. Has the drinking habit become very common among them? 

A. Well, there is nothing else for them to do. 

Q. Did you find in Belfast, as the testimony shows in other 
parts of Ireland, that there was an open bar in the barracks in 
Belfast? 

A. I should imagine that that was quite true, but I was not in 
the barracks. 

Q. The testimony shows here that the R. I. C. in the large cities 
have an open canteen in their barracks. 

A. Yes, everybody says so. It is the accepted thing, I believe, 
but I did not go into that. I must say that, as a woman with chil- 
dren of my own, it is a very great crime to begin boys in life* like 
that. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Have they been recruited for that purpose? 

A. Yes, I think that in a majority of cases they are boys who 
have had a difficulty in finding a job, and have gone into the army 
as a result of the inducements of recruiting. 

RELIEF BADLY NEEDED BY EXPELLED WORKERS 
OF BELFAST 

Q. Who administers the relief in Belfast? 

A. The relief is administered by what is called the Expelled 
Workers' Committee. I have distributed some sheets on that point. 
They have collected money all over Britain. An enormous amount 
of money has been contributed over Britain. The representatives 
of those committees have visited a good many of our trades coun- 
cils in Britain and laid the position of these workmen who are not 
allowed to work before their fellow trades unionists. And very 
large contributions have come in this way. 

Q. Senator Norris: These contributions have come very largely 
from working people, the union people? 

A. Yes, almost entirely. I imagine some of it may have come 
from America. Sir Horace Plunkett tells us relief is needed in 
other parts of Ireland as well as the north. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Who administers this relief? 

A. The Expelled Workers' Committee. They have a very mar- 
velous system of bookkeeping, and it is very well done; very well 
done indeed. 



567 

Q. Would these be Catholics or Protestants administering this 
relief? 

A. Both. Both. This report is signed by a Roman Catholic 
archbishop. Bayer is a Protestant. There were both Protestants 
and Catholics on the administration, and both Catholics and Protes- 
tants are receiving relief. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Both are in need of relief? 

A. Yes. A large number of Protestants are, because they were 
Nationalists or Sinn Feiners. They were expelled, you see, on 
account of political belief. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Do you know whether they have col- 
lected sufficient funds to do for the present winter? 

A. No, no. Relief is still badly needed. The need is very great. 
I don't think I have anything further to add about Belfast. I 
should be glad to answer any questions. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Has not this situation that you have described 
in Belfast had a tendency to even further extend the Sinn Fein influ- 
ence, even further than it was? 

A. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. 

Q. So that sober-minded people have had their minds turned to 
studying this movement and have become Sinn Fein as a result? 

A. Quite, quite. Undoubtedly. 

Q. And I suppose that is true in England even. The English 
people have begun to look more closely into the political causes, 
and have come to have more sympathy with the underlying princi- 
ples of the Sinn Fein movement. 

A. Quite. Quite. But, as I said before, public opinion in Eng- 
land is only waking up. 

ATTITUDE OF PROTESTANT CLERGYMEN IN 
BELFAST 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: May I ask if you had any conver- 
sation with Protestant clergymen in Belfast? 

A. Yes, I did. I also went to church and heard their sermons. 

Q. From the gospel? 

A. Yes. 

Q. May I ask if the Protestant churches have taken any action 
on this matter in Ulster? 

A. No. Not as far as I know. Of course, it is true that some 
of the Protestant clergymen in Belfast have tried very hard to exert 
a moderating influence. It is not fair to classify them all as in 
sympathy with what has happened there. 



568 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: That is what I thought. When you 
were there did you hear of an Ulster delegation made up of Protes- 
tant clergymen which came to this country? 

A. No. I heard since that it was here. 

Senator Walsh: It was here and has gone back last summer. 

Commissioner Thomas: It has returned now to Belfast. 

The Witness: Yes. I think it is only fair to state that many of 
the Protestant clergymen regret very much what has happened. It 
is a result of the past, is it not, as well as the present? 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Has there been any action, as far as 
you know, to condemn what has happened? 

A. Not as far as I know. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did they stimulate it in any way? 

A. Well, I should imagine that the tendency was in that direc- 
tion. You have a narrow Protestantism there that reminds you of 
the age of the Covenanters, — of a stage that the rest of Britain has 
grown out of. 

POORER REPUBLICAN WORKERS FORCED TO LIVE 

IN GHETTO 

Q. Mr. Manly: This report says that the Republicans in Belfast 
are compelled to live in a ghetto as strict as that in any of the 
European cities. 

A. Yes, that is absolutely accurate. 

Q. They have been herded from where they lived into this ghetto 
section? 

A. Yes, and that is where the overcrowding is most hideous. 

Q. And is that true of all classes? 

A. No, it is only true of the workers. It is not true even of the 
better off workers or the professional classes. 

Q. If you have a sufficient amount of wealth you will not be 
herded with the workers in these ghettos? 

A. Quite. But of course you must act extraordinarily careful 
in what you do and say, or you might be. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas : May I refer again to this question : 
Has there been any movement in England, particularly in the 
Anglican Church or the Nonconformist churches, against these 
atrocities? 

A. No. Of course individual members have gravely protested 
against it. But I know of no expression of opinion on the part of 
the church as a whole against what is happening in Ulster. 

Q. I can understand that you might have strong Unionist sym- 



569 

pathies and yet feel very strong abhorrence against what is taking 
place where Protestants are taking the aggression and Catholics are 
the victims. Has such a protest been made? 

. A. Not that I have heard of. It may have been made, but I have 
not heard of it. 

Q. Mr. Manly: By what authority are these people compelled 
to live in certain districts? 

A. Largely by the authority of the Orange leaders. And un- 
fortunately the police and soldiers are not regarded as a neutral 
body. They are not so regarded by the Orangemen. They are 
regarded by the Orangemen to a very great extent as being there to 
uphold their views as against the others. They are not a neutral 
body. And unfortunately that view has made it possible to enforce 
these ghettos. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Have you any idea of the number of 
people living in these ghettos? 

A. That I should think would be very hard to obtain, except by 
a house-to-house canvass. When I was in Belfast I saw the relief 
books, and there were more than twenty thousand people being 
maintained on the books as a result of these outrages. 

Q. That was in July? 

A. In October of this year. 

Q. Do you not have what are called doles in Belfast? 

A. Yes, the unemployment insurance. But these people have 
escaped the benefits of that because the expulsions came before that 
Act became operative. 

Q. Did you not have some Act before that? 

A. Yes, but only for a small proportion of the workers from the 
trade unions. 

Q. Has that been honestly administered? 

A. Yes, as far as it goes. But then, of course, some of the 
trade unions are not paying their benefits because of the political 
opinions of their members. 

Q. Do you not have in Belfast what are called the ordinary 
charitable societies? Are they functioning? 

A. Yes, they are to some extent. The Saint Vincent de Paul 
Society is administering some of these relief funds, but I don't think 
that our charitable societies in Ireland compare with what exists in 
America. We have been much more in the habit of administering 
unemployment doles, as you called them, through unemployment 
societies, rather than through charitable organizations. 



570 

REPUBLICAN HOUSES OF LISBURN BURNED AS 
REPRISAL FOR ACT OF STRANGERS 

In addition to Belfast, I also visited Lisburn. Lisburn was a very 
prosperous linen town just outside of Belfast. In September of this 
year District Inspector Swanzy was in Lisburn. I believe that some 
time this week you are to have evidence offered by the relatives of 
the late Lord Mayor of Cork, Mayor MacCurtain. Well, when 
Mayor MacCurtain was murdered in Cork, the Sinn Fein organi- 
zation and the local authorities, I believe, through such evidence as 
they could get of the death of Lord Mayor MacCurtain and the 
attempt on Professor Stockley, found out who some of the parties 
responsible for the murder were. The police who took part in the 
murder of the Lord Mayor have been tracked down by Sinn Fein. 
I was told that District Inspector Swanzy was one of the persons 
responsible for Mayor MacCurtain's death. After his death Swanzy 
was removed from Cork and sent to Lisburn. He was coming out 
of one of the chief Protestant churches in Lisburn one Sunday when 
three motor cars came up filled by men who were veiled, by men 
who were strangers to the district. They held up the congregation 
and District Inspector Swanzy was shot dead as he was coming out 
of church. In that district you had a mixed population, an Orange 
population and a Catholic population. The Orange population rose 
against the Catholic inhabitants of the town and the Sinn Fein and 
Nationalists leaders, and burned their houses, although the murder 
was admittedly committed by men who were strangers in the town. 
The town burned Sunday night and a large part of Monday, and no 
attempt was made to extinguish the flames, although Lisburn is 
quite near to Belfast, and the skies were lit up for miles around. 

As we walked into the town our attention was directed to a poster 
on which the ink was absolutely fresh and new. It was on the 
morning of October thirteenth. That notice said: 

"The Scriptures said, 'An eye for an eye.' But we say, 
three lives for every life of a member of the forces of the 
Crown who may be killed or injured on the streets of 
Lisburn." 

As we walked through Lisburn we saw remnants of the same notice. 
It had been posted that morning, and had been pulled down by the 
police. 

As we walked into Lisburn, we stood at the top of the main street 
of the town and looked around and down on the town. And I 
should say that one house out of three had been destroyed. Some 
of them were simply heaps of stone, and from other houses the 



571 

walls and windows were gone. The picture was one of absolute 
devastation. It reminded me of pictures I had seen of the northern 
district of France after the German invasion. 

PITIABLE CONDITION OF HOMELESS REFUGEES 
FROM LISBURN 

The people seemed to be very suspicious of us as we questioned 
them, so we just walked around and asked a few questions and left. 
I wanted to find out what had happened to all the women and 
children expelled from this town. I went back to the Expelled 
Workers' Relief Committee in Belfast and asked to see them. 1 
was taken to Falls Road. It is part of the constituency in Belfast 
which is represented by Mr. Devlin. Falls Road is a long street 
with tram cars running through it, and intersected by cross streets. 
Those cross streets are cobbled. And in all these cross streets the 
cobbles have been torn up at one time or another for ammunition 
for fights. It seems to me that with all the soldiers and police 
around there, it would have been very useful if they had been put 
to work cementing them down for the preservation of the peace. 

I was taken to a long hall in Falls Road operated by Catholic 
sisters. There were three long rows of beds, and sitting on the edges 
of them were some of the women who had been driven out of those 
houses in Lisburn. I spoke to one old woman of seventy, very 
infirm, who never had any bad words with her neighbors, and who 
was driven out of her house and could not get permission to take a 
thing with her. All her possessions, the accumulation of a lifetime, 
were lost in her house. I spoke to another woman, a widow with 
four children; and to another one who had lost all. I saw the 
Belgian refugees who came to us in Manchester. But those people 
were absolutely the most hopeless-looking lot of people I have ever 
seen. You see, in the northeast it is almost impossible for a boy 
who wants to enter a skilled trade to get a place if he is known 
to be a Catholic. If the parents of the boy wished to give him a 
trade, they would send him to Dublin or Cork or some other city, 
— that is, if they could afford it. He could not get into a skilled 
trade in Belfast. And, of course, those women were the wives and 
mothers of unskilled laborers; and it has been very difficult for a 
woman in that life to get a decent home together. A woman who 
has got such a home together and reared children has given up a 
very great deal of her vitality and strength. And, of course, those 
women were in that condition. I wish I could convey to this Com- 
mission the saddening depression that the sight of those women gave 



572 

to me. They lacked life. And then the children. They were abso- 
lutely without anything to do. The children had no toys or any- 
thing at all. The misery in that hall was very, very depressing. 

Q. Senator Norris: How many people were in that hall? 

A. I really could not say. I did not want to count them. And, 
of course, there were many, many more. But I did not want to 
see them. I felt that was quite enough. 

LONDONDERRY LIKE A BELEAGUERED CITY 

I did not go to Londonderry. Some of the members of our Com- 
mission went to Londonderry, where, of course, you have a very 
extraordinary situation. The city corporation is evenly divided be- 
tween the Sinn Fein and the Unionists. The mayor of the city is 
Sinn Fein. That, of course, is like a beleaguered city. The streets 
are dug in trenches, and the people go about wearing steel helmets 
and the like. But I did not see that, and so I don't want to say 
anything about it. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Mrs. Robinson, you are still secre- 
tary of the Women's Trade Union League? 

A. Yes, organizing secretary. 

Q. And Miss Ashton, did she go? 

A. No, she did not go. She is not well. 

Commissioner Addams: I think it might be interesting to know 
that Miss Ashton is a sister-in-law of Lord Bryce, who was here. 

ENGLISH LABOR PARTY COMMITTED TO SELF- 
DETERMINATION FOR IRELAND 

Q. Chairman Howe: In the beginning you spoke about the dif- 
ferent organizations that were protesting against conditions in Ire- 
land. You said that your committee was holding meetings and 
issuing literature. What attitude does the Labor Party take? 

A. Well, the Labor Party, as you know, has a mission now in 
Ireland, and has had several others over there. But having left 
England on the eighth of December, I do not know what they have 
done. 

Q. But what have they done before that? 

A. They have held demonstrations and issued a report. I under- 
stand that they have issued instructions to all their branches 
throughout the country to hold demonstrations and take action upon 
it. I imagine that probably the influence of the Labor Party is the 
greatest tool and the most effective weapon that can be brought 
to bear upon the Government to change its Irish policy. 



573 

Q. To what extent has it committed itself on the question? 

A. It has committed itself by many resolutions, on the occasion 
of all of its meetings, to Irish self-determination. And the Labor 
group has not only to face the question of independence for Ire- 
land, but the split in Belfast, which, of course, is a negation of trade 
union principles. 

Q. Is there any other group besides the Labor Party? 

A. Yes, the Free Liberals, led by Mr. Asquith. The Society of 
Friends also sent a commission to Ireland. 

Q. Are the Free Liberals doing anything now? 

A. They are for dominion home rule. But, of course, they are 
numerically a very small party in British politics. 

Q. Even numerically they are very small? 

A. Yes, smaller than the British Labor Party. 

ENGLISH PEOPLE MISLED BY OFFICIAL PRESS 
AND REPORTS OF IRISH STRUGGLE 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Is there a feeling that the Govern- 
ment is not supported by the mass of the English people, on account 
of the elections being held on a different issue? 

A. I could not say that, because, of course, the people do not 
know. The reports of shootings and reprisals and all that have 
been published only on one side. On that side you have the great 
mass of official papers and official reports, which make the people 
believe that the shootings and the atrocities in Ireland have been 
wholly unprovoked. And that, of course, is very harmful on the 
attitude of the people. 

Q. But if the shooting of policemen did not begin until 1918 or 
1919, what appeal or argument did these same newspapers take 
towards Ireland? 

A. Well, of course, there was no mention of Ireland in the news- 
papers until 1918. And then to the average reader, when these 
murders were mentioned, they appeared to be entirely unprovoked. 

LABOR INFLUENCES A SOLVENT FOR ULSTER 
PREJUDICES 

Q. Chairman Howe: You have been giving us the testimony of 
others on the religious situation. Now, do you mind briefing your 
opinion as to the extent to which the religious issue figures in Irish 
politics? It is emphasized very much in this country. Now, what 
is your own opinion? Do you think it is an artificially created 
issue? 

A. You mean as regards England? 



574 

Q. England in Ireland. Is it a faked issue? That is what I 
mean. 

A. Well, no. The issue of religion is a very real issue, of 
course. But, as I pointed out, it is largely kept alive by the politi- 
cal influences, by the economic influences headed by Sir Edward 
Carson; kept alive for political reasons. If it had not been for 
anybody's political advantage to perpetuate this difference, I think 
to a very great extent it would have died down. 

Q. Commissioner Newman: But these differences are there? 

A. They are, of course. But I should think that the labor influ- 
ences are a very great solvent. In spite of what happened there 
the twenty-first of July, they will be a very great solvent. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is Ireland drifting to a labor basis? 

A. Northeast Ulster is. The rest of Ireland is not. As I pointed 
out, Sir Edward Carson has safeguarded the interests he represents 
against any possible capital levy by a labor-controlled Ulster Par- 
liament by including in the new Home Rule Bill an express pro- 
vision against it, and by including the anti-Labor counties of Tyrone 
and Fermanagh to guard against any capital levy. Of course, 
otherwise Tyrone and Fermanagh would not have been included 
at all. 

PRESENT HOME RULE BILL DRAWN TO PROTECT 
ULSTER PROPERTY INTERESTS 

Q. Commissioner Newman: Mrs. Robinson, what do you mean 
by a capital levy? 

A. A capital levy is a tax on wealth to pay for the war. It is 
an integral part of Labor political policy. 

Q. And this is inhibited in this present Home Rule Bill? 

A. Yes, it is. And there is another thing that ought to be em- 
phasized, and that is that the only party in Ireland that is supporting 
the present Home Rule Bill in British politics is the Ulster faction. 
In 1914 the Ulsterites said they would not accept home rule, and 
armed themselves to rise in rebellion against it. 

Q. What was the real reason for that opposition then? 

A. Well, you see, as I have said, it threatened certain property 
interests in Ulster. These interests have been protected as far as 
possible in the present Home Rule Bill, which exempts them from 
a capital levy to pay the cost of the war. 

Senator Walsh: I suppose there are people in the British Govern- 
ment, as there are in the American, that would sooner give their 
sons to war than their money. 

The Witness: Quite right. Quite right. 



575 

AMERICAN RED CROSS NOT DOING RELIEF WORK 
IN IRELAND 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: These women you described awhile 
ago are living on charity? 

A. Absolutely. 

Q. And did you find any sickness among them? 

A. Yes, there is sickness. 

Q. They are very helpless? 

A. Absolutely helpless. You see, not only their homes are de- 
stroyed, but everything they owned was destroyed. Their whole 
hold on life has been taken away from them. 

Q. Now, in this country we have the Red Cross as a relief 
agency. Has it done any work in Ireland? 

A. No, it has not been in Ireland. 

Senator Walsh: I understand that the Red Cross has taken the 
position that they cannot function in any country or government 
without the consent of the authorities of that government. 

Commissioner Maurer: Indeed? 

Commissioner Wood: You are speaking about the British Red 
Cross, are you not, Mr. Maurer? 

Mrs. Robinson: The Geneva Red Cross, perhaps. 

Commissioner Maurer: But in my contributions to the Red Cross 
I thought they ought to function anywhere in the world where there 
was need of them to relieve human misery and suffering. 

Senator Norris: Yes, exactly, without any consideration of the 
politics of the sufferers. 

Commissioner Maurer: Yes, indeed. I know one physician from 
my home who volunteered to go when the war broke out. I knew 
he was a pacifist; and I said to him, "Where are you going?" And 
he said, "I don't know and I don't care. I only know there is suffer- 
ing, and I am going where it is to help." Now, is it possible, 
Senator, that with all this suffering in Ireland, the British Govern- 
ment would not allow the Red Cross to go to Ireland to help these 
people? 

Senator Walsh: I don't know. But I do know that Miss Mac- 
Swiney and Mrs. MacSwiney called upon the American Red Cross 
while they were in Washington, and they were informed, as I said, 
that they could not operate where the government did not give its 
consent. 

Senator Norris: Do you mean the British Government would not 
give its consent to relieve that suffering? 

Senator Walsh: I do not know. 



576 

Senator Norris: According to that, either the British Government 
or the American Red Cross is at fault, and I would like to know 
which. 

Commissioner Maurer: So would I. If we are. to support an 
organization which is to be a political tool, I think we ought to 
know about it. 

Senator Norris: So do I. 

ENGLISH PUBLIC BEWILDERED BY TRUTH ABOUT 
CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Q. Commissioner Wood: You spoke about the demonstrations 
being held in England. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Are those meetings well attended? 

A. Very well indeed. I think they are the most crowded meet- 
ings I have ever seen. 

Q. What was the attitude of the people who attended them? 

A. Tremendous sympathy and utter bewilderment. You see, in 
England we have a very great number of British Irish. Take Man- 
chester, my own home. There is a very great number of Irish 
people there who have come over from Ireland. There is a very 
large branch of the Irish Self-Determination League. On the occa- 
sion of the death of Lord Mayor MacSwiney of Cork there was a 
procession five miles long in the streets of Manchester. And these 
people know all the time what is going on. Of course, there is not 
quite the same bewilderment among them that there is among others. 

Q. Of course, we have that common meeting point of an Irish 
population. But do you think that your meetings have been largely 
made up of the Irish population in England? 

A. No, no. We have had a very large proportion of other 
people. 

Q. You think that a large part of them is made up of people 
who were ignorant of this subject? 

A. Yes, certainly. And certainly there is a rising tide of public 
opinion on this matter. And people everywhere are saying that 
whatever can be done to restore peace in Ireland should be done. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What is the feeling of the English people in 
regard to this Commission? 

A. I don't think there is very much known about it at all. At 
the same time, at the meeting we held in the Free Trade Hall on the 
twenty-first of September, there was a motion that someone from 
that meeting ought to be sent to testify here. Among the members 



577 

of the Irish Self-Determination League there is a very great feeling 
and a very great hope built up on the outcome of the findings of 
this Commission. 

Q. You mean on public opinion in America? 

A. Yes, and I should think and hope that it should have a very 
great influence on public opinion in England. 

ENGLISH ATTITUDE TOWARD AMERICAN INQUIRY 
INTO EVENTS IN IRELAND 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Did any reference or publicity about 
the meetings of this Commission here appear in the English papers? 

A. Oh, yes, yes, yes. But the papers, naturally, were papers 
like the Manchester Guardian. 

Q. Do these organizations recognize that there are a very great 
many people of Irish extraction in the United States? 

A. Oh, yes, it is recognized by many of the people. I knew it, 
and Miss Wilkinson knew it. But I doubt if it is very popularly 
recognized. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Your statement that there was such 
interest taken in your meetings in Manchester might be accounted 
for in part by the fact that a large section of the population in 
Manchester is of Irish extraction. 

A. Yes. But of course there were many, many others there too. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: As far as you are aware, there is a 
comprehension of how inevitably this matter must enter into Ameri- 
can politics and shape our actions? 

A. That, I think, is very clearly recognized, — its effect on Amer- 
ican politics. 

Q. We do not want to use you — to talk at you in this matter, but 
some of us feel that the English people do not realize just how near 
home to us the events in Ireland come. For instance, there was an 
English editorial quoted in one of our American papers called 
"Damned Impudence." There is a feeling on the part of many of 
us that "Damned Impudence" might very possibly result in worse 
things. 

A. Well, you see, I have been very, very closely associated with 
the groups I have been discussing with you, and I don't know about 
the other side. The best persons to explain that attitude would be 
persons associated with the other side. 

Q. We have tried to get them to come and testify, but they will 
not do so. 

A. Yes. 



578 

ENGLISH NEWSPAPER MEN PROTEST AGAINST 
TREATMENT IN IRELAND 

Q. Senator Walsh: To what extent is the present news going 
from this country distorted and colored? 

A. Very, very greatly. 

Q. Mr. Manly: May I ask a question? During your investiga- 
tions in Ireland, did you learn anything of interference with re- 
porters of newspapers in their getting news? 

A. No, I did not come across that. Miss Wilkinson would be 
very much better able to tell you about that than I. That was in 
the south of Ireland. 

Q. Had a committee of newspaper men protested against their 
treatment in Ireland before you left London? 

A. Yes, they certainly had protested against the treatment of 
Hugh Martin. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 

Chairman Howe: The meeting will adjourn until two-thirty, 
when Miss Wilkinson will give evidence. 

* * * » " » * * * 

2:36 P. M. 

Commissioner Addams (presiding) : If the Commission will be in 
session, Miss Wilkinson will begin. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS ELLEN C. WILKINSON 

Q. Will you give your name, Miss Wilkinson? 

A. Ellen C. Wilkinson. 

Q. And your address is Manchester? 

A. Yes, 18 Alma Road, Manchester. 

Q. May we ask your occupation? 

A. I am a trade union official. 

Q. What is your position, please? 

A. I am national organizer for the Amalgamated Union of Co- 
operative Employees. 

Q. Are you representing any organization here? 

A. I represent only the Women's International League here. 

Q. The English League sent a mission to Ireland, of which you 
were a member? 

A. Yes, of which I was a member. 

Q. We have been asking people for their religious affiliations. 
I don't know why we have been doing it, but may we ask you? 

A. I am a Wesleyan Methodist. 



579 

SCOPE OF EVIDENCE AND INVESTIGATIONS 

Q. Miss Wilkinson, will you begin and make the statement that 
you had outlined of your experiences in Ireland. 

A. Well, I thought it might be better if I divided mv evidence 
into sections. I thought perhaps that if I had one section on the 
economic blockade of Ireland, one section on the raids, lootings, 
and sackings, one section on the southern Lnionists. with whom I 
took a great deal of care to get in touch: and then, if time permits, 
the consideration of the military organization in the south of Ire- 
land. — I might proceed in that way if that covers the case. 

Commissioner Addams: I think it does. 

The Witness: Then of course you will ask question-. 

Q. Then you will begin with the economic blockade? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: \ ou don't mind our asking ques- 
tions? 

A. no. not at all. I might say that I. with two members of 
the Society of Friends, covered Dublin. Limerick. Galwav and 
Tuam: and then on up the west coast of County Clare to Ennistv- 
mon, and then to Cork and Mallow. When we went to Limerick, of 
course, we found that the proposition of traveling on the Irish rail- 
ways was very difficult indeed, and we motored over a good deal of 
\^ estern Ireland. 

Q. What date was that? 

A. The first two weeks of October. 1920. We returned October 
seventeenth. 

BRITISH ECONOMIC POLICY IN IRELAND 

First of all. as to the policy of the British Government in Ire- 
land. It seemed to us that there was a policy behind the Govern- 
ment's economic blockade of Ireland. Lord French, who is the 
\ iceroy of Ireland, made a speech in which he said that the trouble 
with Ireland was that there were two hundred thousand too many 
young men in Ireland. Of course, as you know, emigration to Amer- 
ica was stopped. Previously it had been the custom for a great 
number of young men and women to emigrate everv Year. And 
Lord French assumed that these young men and women, many of 
whom had gone to fight in the war. with which thev were not very 
sympathetic, were the cause of all the trouble. And I learned that 
it was the policy of the British Government to get the voung men 
out of the way. I don't mean to assume that Lord French was a 
hlackface at all. but that he felt that it was a great deal better to 
get the young hotbloods to America than to have them remain in 
Ireland and make trouble. 



580 

DESTRUCTION OF IRISH AGRICULTURAL 
PROSPERITY 

There is another thing. At the beginning of the war, agriculture 
in Ireland was more prosperous than it ever was before. They had 
developed dairy farming and cattle raising for the English market. 
And of course, during the war we were rather more polite to Ire- 
land than we have been since; for of course Ireland could have 
blockaded us, and could have made a very serious difference to our 
food supply if she had wanted to. Of course, since the war Ireland 
has not been important in that respect. 

First of all regarding agriculture. When I was in West Clare and 
Limerick there was a wholesale burning of hay ricks. That was ex- 
tremely important, because on the hay ricks depended the cattle, and 
hence the creameries. And of course, in burning the hay ricks, you 
destroyed the very foundations of Irish agricultural prosperity. It 
was said by the British military authorities that these were reprisals 
against Sinn Feiners; but that was not so, because in Pallaskenry, 
in Limerick and places in Kildare which are Protestant settlements, 
their ricks were burned too. 

There was a great deal of difficulty, too, in importing cattle fod- 
der. I have with me a clipping from the Irish Independent of Oc- 
tober 8, 1920, in which it is stated from a Belgian paper that the 
British Controller General had issued a proclamation against the 
importation of cattle fodder into the United Kingdom, and that that 
prohibition of importation was absolute against Ireland. The Irish 
farmers, after their own hay had been burned, had been importing 
cattle fodder from England. That meant that they could not get 
feed for their cattle at any price. 

Then another very serious blow to the agricultural prosperity of 
Ireland was the prohibition of fairs and markets. The British Gov- 
ernment felt that the fairs and markets were breeding-grounds for 
sedition. However that might be, they were also the ordinary me- 
diums of exchange, where the British buyers got into touch with the 
sellers of Irish cattle. And that, of course, made the situation of 
the farmer a great deal more difficult. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: May I ask if that prohibition of the 
importation of cattle food from Belgium was to prevent the spread 
of the hoof and mouth disease, and that was on a different 'basis 
from the prohibition of the holding of fairs and markets? 

A. No. The British Government openly said that the prohibi- 
tion of fairs and markets was to prevent people coming together to 
breed plots against the British Government. 

Q. There was no reason given for the prohibition of importa- 
tion of food stuffs from Belgium? 

A. No, of course there was not. And of course these things are 



581 

not done openly. You only find out they are going on when you 
try to import cattle fodder. This thing came to light because the 
Irish farmers were trying to get cattle fodder to replace their ruined 
hay. 

IRISH PACKING AND MILLING INDUSTRIES 
CRIPPLED BY NON-IMPORTATION ORDER 

The next thing was the importation of cattle. I interviewed a 
number of the most prominent employers of Limerick in this indus- 
try. One of the most important was Mr. O'Mara, who was a very 
prominent member of the Irish Party in the British Parliament. He 
has one of the largest bacon curing factories in Limerick, and he 
told me that the average killing of pigs there had been two thou- 
sand a week, and that since the blockade they were only able to get 
six hundred. And he said that the reason for that was that when 
his buyers went around the country, they could not go to the mar- 
kets, because these had been suppressed, and they had to go to the 
individual farmers. They had been shown telegrams by the Irish 
station masters on the Irish railways that no cattle or pigs could be 
received. Limerick, I must explain, is one of the danger points in 
the west. I do not know why it should be, but it has always been 
the center of very bitter feeling. There was practically an eco- 
nomic blockade going on. And of course that resulted in a large 
amount of unemployment. For of course Mr. O'Mara was only one 
of many bacon curers, and a large number of his men were unem- 
ployed, as were others too. 

Then Limerick was a large milling center. The ships which were 
bringing flour to Limerick were diverted north. Mr. O'Mara said 
that he was under the impression that the big business interests in 
Belfast had a big trade hold on the Dublin Government, 1 and that 
they were able to cut off supplies from southern firms. He knew 
that the pigs he wanted to buy were being diverted north, and that 
the flour his mills needed was being diverted north. And he felt 
that the big business interests of the north had the aid of the Gov- 
ernment in diverting the flour and the bacon they needed in Lim- 
erick. That, of course, again caused unemployment, — the flour be- 
ing diverted north. 

PARALYSIS OF RAILWAYS AND RESTRICTION OF 

MOTOR TRANSPORT CAUSE 

ECONOMIC CRISIS 

Then comes the railway situation, which is one of the most seri- 
ous unemployment situations Ireland has to face. As you know, the 



1 The reference is to Dublin Castle, the seat of Imperial British Govern- 
ment in Ireland. 



582 

British Council of Action, as the result of the British railwaymen's 
action, has decided that it would not ship munitions of war to Po- 
land to aid in the war against Russia. The Irishmen applied that 
to their own country, and said they would not engage in the ship- 
ment of arms or armed troops in order that the Irish war could go 
on, as they put it. That for a time was effective. But a sort of 
modus vivendi was arrived at, and the policy of the Government 
was changed. The munitions were sent by road. The Ministry of 
Transportation, under Sir Eric Geddes, carried this policy through, 
and determined that this could not go on, and that the Irish rail- 
waymen must carry whatever they were given to carry. And there- 
fore an arrangement was made between the British Ministry of 
Transportation and the Irish railway companies, which of course 
are dependent on Government subsidies, because the Government 
took -over all the railroads during the war and gave them a subsidy 
from which to make up their profits. This arrangement was that any 
railwayman or guard who refused to carry munitions on an Irish 
train should be dismissed when he reached the end of his journey. 
It has been only a question of time as to how soon the railways in 
Ireland should be completely stopped. I know once or twice when 
we were traveling on the main line from Dublin to Galway, once 
or twice soldiers got on the train; and if they got on carrying their 
rifles, then the Irish railwaymen would not carry them. But if they 
had no arms, the railwaymen would carry them. For instance, Lim- 
erick, which is the most important commercial center on the west 
of Ireland, had only one train a day into and one train a day out 
of it, and you could not tell when that would run. And sometimes 
it wouldn't run at all. The only train you could depend on was the 
one o'clock train on Sunday, on which soldiers did not ride. And 
of course business men know what such a situation means to trade. 
Limerick is on the west coast, and Galway is just fifty miles north. 
Galway is the next important center to Limerick, and obviously the 
commercial communications between those two towns are consider- 
able. If you wanted to go between these two places, you had to go 
all the way east across the country to Dublin, and then back again 
to Galway! It meant hours, of course, instead of just a little trip. 
If we had a map here, you would see what an absurd, roundabout 
way of travel this was. 

The stopping of the trains meant a serious lack of food supply 
for the larger towns. The Irish, of course, tried to meet this by 
organizing a motor transport, as the English Government had done 
at the time of the railway strike. And this was immediately replied 
to by a government order refusing to allow the free use of motor 
transport. No person was allowed to drive or have a motor with- 
out a motor license. And it is impossible, — not theoretically but 
practically it is impossible for a Sinn Feiner to get a license. And 



583 

the O'Mara people again, who are wealthy people in Dublin, got ;i 
new ear; and as soon as they had it delivered, a British officer ap- 
peared and took away the important parts of it. He apologized, but 
said he had to demobilize the ear. It was only with the greatest 
difficulty that we could get a motor to do our work. 

That means that the railway transport is shut down and the motor 
transport is shut down. And that means an economic blight upon 
the country. Is that clear? 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Yes, I think so. Are there any 
questions to be asked about this economic blockade? 

Commissioner Thomas: Do I understand that there was a rule, 
either legal or practical, which prevented a motor being driven more 
than a few miles in a day? One of our other witnesses has referred 
to that. 

A. Yes, not more than twenty miles from the town of the owner. 
That is true, but that is not so difficult to get out of as in getting a 
car at all. Unless you are known to be a strong supporter of the 
British Government or a part of the military government, it is al- 
most impossible to get a car at all. 

HAY RICKS AND HOUSES BURNED BY BLACK-AND- 

TANS 

Q. Commissioner Newman : You spoke about the burning ol 
hay ricks. Have you any idea of how extensive that is? 

A. While we were there, all the hay ricks from Limerick up the 
coast to Ennistymon were burned. And since we got back, in Gal- 
way and Tipperary too. It is not true that all the hay ricks in Ire- 
land have been burned, as some have said. But an enormous quan- 
tity has been lost. 

Q. Senator Norris: That was out in the country, of course. 

A. Yes. 

Q. What organization did the burning? 

A. The Black-and-Tans. 

Q. Commissioner Wood : How much of this did you see your- 
self? 

A. Well, of course I saw a fair amount of hay burning. 

Q. Actually burning? 

A. Yes, actually burning. When we went to Limerick, for in- 
stance, we were taken to Brennan's farm, five miles out of Limerick. 
It was owned by a widow. Her two sons were heroes in the country- 
side. One of them, Michael Brennan, is chairman of the Clare 
County Council. Of course they are both on the run. And the 
English officers, rightly or wrongly, put down many of the occur- 
rences in this community to them. So the English officers went to 



584 

the house, told Mrs. Brennan to get out immediately, and burned 
the house and the hay. 

Q. Senator Norris: The house was destroyed? 

A. Yes, all destroyed. And when we motored around the coun- 
try, we saw many charred stacks of hay, some of them still burning. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Was it only a rumor that the Black- 
and-Tans did that, or did you actually see them? 

A. No, of course I didn't see them. Only in Cork was I actually 
in a scrap myself. All these things went on at night, and you saw 
the evidence the next morning. But everybody in the country de- 
clares it was the work of the Black-and-Tans. 

Then another question is Irish industry as apart from Irish agri- 
culture. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Are you leaving Irish agriculture now? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you come to the burning of Irish creameries? 

A. Well, I put creameries under industries. It is a very arti- 
ficial division. It merely keeps my mind tidy. 

CRUSHING OF IRISH INDUSTRIAL MOVEMENT 
AND BURNING OF CREAMERIES 

The question of Irish industries is important in this sense. I 
dare say a good many people here have read the books on the Irish 
renaissance and the new life that was just springing up before the 
war. The great idea of the Irish patriarchs was, of course, to start 
industries in the villages in order that young men and women might 
be kept in the villages and keep Irish life alive. They saw that that 
was the only way to keep the young people from emigrating. That 
led to the encouragement of manufactures and the cooperative 
creameries movement. The creameries, of course, were started by 
the Irish Agricultural Organization Society under Sir Horace 
Plunkett. And the idea was that, instead of having the difficulties 
and waste under the individual farmer trading system, to collect the 
milk and produce — milk especially — of the farmers, and make it 
into butter or condensed milk or any of the various dairy products. 
Now, these creameries were very largely cooperative. There were 
a few capitalist ones, but most of them were built by the farmers 
themselves. They would raise money on their land, or raise it in 
other ways, and put it together and buy the machinery. And these 
creameries gave a great deal of employment, especially to the women 
in the countryside. Then there were such mills as the hosiery mills 
at Balbriggan and various other mills. Then just at the beginning 
of the war, there was a very important commission known as the 
Industrial Development Commission started, which was later made 
an official commission by Dail Eireann, the Irish Parliament. And 



585 

their idea was to map out Ireland and consider just where they 
could start industries. Darrell Figgis was head of this commission; 
and he was arrested, of course, and the documents of the commis- 
sion confiscated, and the movement crushed. Then, of course, there 
was in Ireland the general cooperative movement along the Eng- 
lish lines. 

The terrible thing is that a great many of the Irish people feel 
that this crushing of the new industrial movement and the burning 
of creameries and factories is part of England's policy toward Ire- 
land. And of course everyone who knows history knows that dur- 
ing the time of Mercantilism England did ruin the wool industry of 
Ireland, and gave it the linen industry in its place. But to me it 
seemed that the idea of the English Government was to break down 
the morale of the people and cause unemployment and get the 
young men out of the way, rather than a deliberate policy of ruin- 
ing Irish trade and industry. Of course that is only my own opin- 
ion. And the Irish people have much to support their view. 

Edward Lysaght started a cooperative industry near Limerick, — 
a very interesting man who was on the run and managed all this 
business during the clay. He was trying to raise up a feeling for 
peasant crafts, and to get a market for them. And all his works 
were burned down. That was pretty rotten. 

Q. Commissioner Newman: When was that? 

A. That was just after we left Limerick, — the beginning of No- 
vember. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: You say creameries have been gen- 
erally burned? Do you know how many have been burned? How 
many cooperative creameries were there in Ireland, in fact? 

A. I believe there was just over a hundred, and forty-five of 
them have been burned, I believe. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Is there any chance of getting com- 
pensation for the loss of these creameries? 

A. Yes, that comes under the Malicious Injuries Act, and ac- 
cording to that, the people who suffer the loss appeal to the courts, 
and the damages are assessed upon the inhabitants. The result is 
that in Limerick, with 44,000 people, over fifty thousand pounds of 
damages have been done. And it meant that any person who ap- 
pealed to the courts would get their damages very liberally as- 
sessed, but they had to be paid by the people. 

CREAMERIES BURNED BY BLACK-AND-TANS, 
DESPITE DENIALS OF GOVERNMENT 

Q. Senator Norris: Who burned these creameries, the Black- 
and-Tans? 

A. Yes, the Black-and-Tans. Many of them have been investi- 



586 

gated by Sir Horace Plunkett, and many of them have been proved 
to be done by the Black-and-Tans and soldiers, proved by eye-wit- 
nesses. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: What explanation did Sir Hamar 
Greenwood give of these burnings of creameries in the House of 
Commons? 

A. First of all, he said it did not occur. And when we showed 
him pictures, he said it was done by the Irishmen. And when we 
produced evidence by eye-witnesses that they were burned by the 
armed forces of the Crown, he said the managers were Sinn Feiners. 
He also tried to prove that they were used as Sinn Fein ambushes. 
Well, of course, we all laughed at him, for Sir Hamar Greenwood 
is a kind of a joke. You see, Sir Hamar Greenwood is put in the 
position of either having to say that he doesn't know, or to try to 
explain. He has usually had to take refuge in diplomatic silence 
and say he doesn't know. But of course these creameries were not 
used as Sinn Fein ambushes, and many of the managers are Eng- 
lishmen and have nothing to do with Sinn Fein. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Were the burning of these creameries 
done as reprisals, as the result of "exasperation past endurance," 
as it has been put? And were any officers in control of these 
parties? 

A. It is very difficult to say, because many of these officers do 
not wear any officer's dress. The Black-and-Tan's uniform is a very 
mixed sort of thing. According to Irish witnesses themselves, some 
of them have been done without officers and some of them have been 
done with officers. 

Of course, in regard to reprisals, that excuse hardly holds against 
cooperative creameries, which are owned by people of all political 
opinions. The manager of the cooperative creamery at Limerick 
was an Englishman, a Protestant, with very little interest in Irish 
politics. He went there to start cooperation in Limerick. I went to 
interview him, and he said that he and his assistant were taken out 
of their house and beaten; and they told him that his creamery 
would be fired. And he said he was an Englishman; and they said 
he had no business in Ireland starting the cooperative movement. 

With regard to compensation : even when the owner appeals to 
the courts and is given damages against the town under the Mali- 
cious Injuries Act, of course the people do not pay. They cannol 
pay. And in addition the British Government is withholding cer- 
tain grants that it is not paying. No matter what the reason or ex- 
cuse is, the present situation simply means the destruction of Irish 
industries for the moment. 



587 



ENGLAND DESTROYS IRISH TRADE BY STOPPING 

SUPPLIES 

With regard to Irish trade as apart from Irish industry, the two 
great difficulties have been the stoppage of supplies from England 
and the burning of business premises. 

With regard to the stoppage of supplies from England, the evi- 
dence is this: we were shown certain letters from English firms in 
reply to orders from Irish firms, stating that they could not supply 
Irish firms; they were sorry. And of course in September and Oc- 
tober there were notices in English post-offices saying that no one 
could send a parcel to Ireland, not even personal parcels to Ireland. 
And of course that is ruinous to trade. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: What articles does Ireland import 
from England in the way of raw material? 

A. Ireland does not import much raw material. She imports 
manufactured articles. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Clothing is imported also? 

A. The heavier clothing, the woolen clothing is, of course. 

Mrs. Robinson : I know that in the case of Belfast, there has been 
a very great boycott of the leading articles imported from England 
and the English stores which sell them, which of course is ruining 
the English trade. 

The Witness: Quite. And in addition the English Government 
is preventing free trade relations between Ireland and other coun- 
tries. 

BLACK-AND-TANS BURN AND LOOT BUSINESS 
PREMISES 

Then with regard to the burning of business premises, there is a 
large bakery owned by a man named Daly and a large tannery 
owned by a man named White which we visited. These had been 
burned by the Black-and-Tans, — the lower floor soaked with petrol 
and set afire to, and about seven hundred pounds' damage done. A 
part of the tannery that was dry did burn; the rest was saved. Mr. 
White was wanting to increase his premises, and of course he could 
not do this. 

Then about the looting of shops. In Galway the Black-and-Tans 
used to hold up the public houses and get what drink they wanted 
merely by threatening to burn the place down. We went to a public 
house there called The Bow, which is just out of Galway on the 
north road. There there is just a girl and her mother in charge. 
And the police came one night after dark and locked up the girl 
and her mother in a room and took what drink they wanted. And 
then of course they took pot shots at the glasses and windows. 



588 

Q. Commissioner Newman : Is there any part of this loss in- 
sured? 

A. Yes, of course, but the English companies will not pay on 
this damage at the present time unless it is especially covered by 
special insurance. They will not pay under the ordinary policy. 
You must insure against malicious injuries.. The curious thing is 
that the insurance rate against damage by Sinn Fein is about one- 
half what insurance against damage by the Crown forces is. 

Q. Senator Walsh: So the business house must take out two 
policies, one to protect it against loss from the Sinn Fein, and an- 
other policy to protect it against loss from the Crown forces? 

A. Yes, but one can say which he wants. 

Q. And if he wants to insure against loss by the Crown forces, 
he must pay twice as much as against loss by the Sinn Fein forces? 

A. Yes, exactly. 

Q. Senator Norris: As a matter of fact, do the business houses 
take out insurance against loss by Sinn Fein? 

A. Most of them take out a general insurance policy. Some 
houses in the north take out insurance against loss from Sinn Fein. 

Q. That would indicate that some of these buildings were burned 
by Sinn Fein? 

A. I am just thinking of a case in point, where people who were 
very notoriously with the English force, people who were in touch 
with them, or people who were giving information against Sinn 
Fein, they were burned down too. And of course there is cattle 
raiding and destruction in that sort of way. If they wanted to take 
it against you for giving information against Sinn Fein, they could 
take it out of you in that way too. 

Q. Commissioner Newman: Do you know of any case of that 
kind? 

A. I am just thinking of a man in the west who had English 
officers staying with him. He was a very prominent English sym- 
pathizer, one who was formerly known as an absentee landlord. 
And his cattle were driven away. 

Q. Was that known to be done by Sinn Feiners? 

A. Well, obviously it would not be done by the Crown forces. 

Q. That is the only case of which you know where the damage 
was done by Sinn Fein? 

A. Yes, that was the only case in the south. But in the north — 
I will speak of that later. 

Then there was, in addition to this looting, the smashing of win- 
dows in business houses. And that made it difficult for business to 
be carried on. And then, of course, if there was a row — a pitched 
battle between the Crown forces and the Sinn Feiners, business 
houses would get the worst of that too. 



589 



DESTRUCTION OF IRISH PROSPERITY A PART OF 
ENGLISH CAMPAIGN AGAINST SINN FEIN 

That pretty well covers what I had to say with regard to the eco- 
nomic blockade and its effects on industry, business, and trade. 
But I don't want to misuse the word blockade, to make it sound as 
if there had been a formal declared blockade. It is much more the 
cumulative effect of a policy of preventing the young men from 
working, and preventing Dail Eireann from building" up the indus- 
trial prosperity of Ireland. And the military authorities have struck 
everywhere at the business houses and the mills as a part of clear- 
ing Sinn Feiners, as they say, out of the country. That is all of 
that. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Thank you very much. And what 
next? 

A. I was wondering if you wanted me to go to the subject of 
the raids. 

TERRIBLE SUFFERING FROM UNEMPLOYMENT 
AND DESTRUCTION OF INDUSTRIES 

Q. Mr. Manly: Before we leave industry, would you tell us 
what you saw of the effects of the destruction of industry in the 
form of suffering and unemployment that would make the people 
need relief? Were those effects really apparent? 

A. Yes, I am glad you mentioned that. I should have put it in. 
The unemployment of the men of Limerick was quite terrible. One 
of the large employers said it was very different from the lack of 
demand for clothing, which was shutting up the mills in the big 
towns. Their trouble was that they could not get the necessary ma- 
terials, and so whole factories had to shut down. Then, of course, 
there was a tremendous number of railway men who were unem- 
ployed, amounting to three thousand, I believe. Of course the Eng- 
lish Railwaymen's Union did not recognize what is called the unem- 
ployment strike, and they would not pay unemployment insurance 
to these men. And that left it to the national railway employees of 
Ireland, and they are levying upon themselves an assessment of 
eight and sixpence a week to help these men. That may not seem 
very much, but the wages you get in America are much larger than 
theirs, and it was an enormous amount to those men. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do you know what the weekly wage is? 

A. I think that the minimum rate for the railroad men under 
the recent agreement was sixty-eight shillings. 

Q. And they levied on that eight shillings and sixpence? 

A. Yes, eight shillings sixpence. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Would it be possible now, since a 



590 

map has come, to indicate on that the area most seriously affected 
and needing relief on account of these various measures you have 
described? 

A. Well (indicating map* here is Limerick and here is Galway. 
I visited around here, and then here, and through to Cork. Kerry 
was quiet when I was down. All those terrible things that have hap- 
pened there have happened since. West Galway was one of the 
poorest parts of Ireland formerly, but that has been improved since 
the war and under the Land Acts, which enabled them to get their 
own buildings. Now, the burning of their hay throws them back to 
the pre-war poverty, which is a very terrible thing. Then Limerick, 
which has always been one of the prosperous parts of Ireland. They 
are very bad off in Clare, because Clare is very poor land. The 
stones are very near the surface. You really scratch your living off 
the surface of the land. Then, of course, to burn the hay of Lim- 
erick is to destroy the agricultural resources of the richest part of 
the country. I believe there has also been a very large amount of 
hay burned around Cork and Tipperary and Kildare. 

May I say about the railways, while we have the map here? Here 
is Galway and here is Limerick (indicating on map). And here is 
Dublin. And then, in order to get from Galway to Limerick, you 
had to cross to Dublin and then come back to Galway. 

INHUMANE CONSEQUENCES OF BURNING OF 
CREAMERIES 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: May I ask, while we have the map. 
if these forty-five creameries which were burned were pretty well 
distributed all over Ireland? 

A. Yes, they were pretty well distributed all over the south and 
west of Ireland. Creameries have been burned here, and here, and 
here I indicating I , and at Mallow, where the big milk condensing 
factory was. That was a pretty bad burning from the humane 
point of view, because people in Europe are dying for want of milk. 
I was talking to one of the men at the head of that works, and he 
said they could not get the machinery together again to replace il 
inside of the next ten years. 

Q. How many years? 

A. Ten years. 

Mr. Manly: Ten years! 

The Witness: I think the export trade has been affected most. 
Another difficulty is that there is now a very large amount of raw 
milk left on the hands of the farmers. Because of the creameries, 
the farmers had concentrated on providing milk for the creameries. 
And that was a very well worked up trade. Now they cannot stop 
the cows producing milk, and this is wasted. Of course, the towns 
iu Ireland need milk, but often they are not near the dairy centers. 



591 

Q. Then you have a surplus of milk in the country and a famine 
in the cities? 

A. Yes, quite. I expect places like Dublin and Cork are suffer- 
ing terribly. But the country towns have a surplus of milk, which 
they cannot use. 

I was just getting back to the raids. 

POSITION, COST, AND ORGANIZATION OF BRITISH 
FORCES IN IRELAND 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Perhaps you can tell of the organ- 
ization of the military before you come to the raids. 

A. Yes, yes. With regard to the organization of the military, 
it is of course difficult to get exact information. The military ques- 
tion is one of the most difficult of all. And this, of course, is the 
difficulty with regard to English public opinion. After all, the 
armed forces of the Crown in Ireland are our own men. And any 
English audience to which you talk will say, "Well, my husband is 
there." And as far as that is concerned, my own brother, a boy of 
eighteen, was stationed at Ennis during the latter part of the war. 
Therefore, I want to be fair in dealing with this question. It is 
difficult to make English people understand it. And it is also im- 
portant for people who are looking at matters not from the stand- 
point of any country or any government, but from the human point 
of view, to realize that the military authorities in Ireland are con- 
centrating on propaganda amongst these men, which is producing 
a mentality that makes them believe that every Irishman is a mur- 
derer. If you are going to consider the Irish problem, it seems to 
me that you cannot get away from the mentality of the English sol- 
diers who are over there. 

Firsi of all, the British Government, in answer to a question that 
was asked in Parliament, said it was spending on the military or- 
ganization in Ireland I that is, of course, apart from the Black-and- 
Tans and the police), one and one-half million pounds a month, 
which at the par rate of exchange would come to, I believe, about 
$90,000,000 a year. That means that there is an enormous number 
of soldiers in Ireland. 

Q. They are not Black-and-Tans entirely, either? 

A. No, I am not considering the Black-and-Tans; they are not 
considered soldiers. Apart from that, there is the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary, which was always there. The Royal Irish Constabular\ 
has always been to an Irishman an armed garrison force. The 
British Government always sent the southern Irishmen to the north, 
and the northern Irishmen to the south. There has been, as you 
know, a large number of resignations from that organization. Then 
the British Government has organized the Black-and-Tans. The 
officers of the Black-and-Tans wear black Sam Brown hells and 



592 

black caps and black ties, — if they wear any uniform; which, with 
the regular tan clothing of the British army which they wear, led to 
their being called Black-and-Tans. Like other cases of half-breeds, 
they combine all the defects and none of the virtues of either sol- 
diers or police. There were two divisions of these. One was a fly- 
ing column division. When we were motoring in West Galway, we 
would come across lorry loads of these men drawn up along the 
roadside asleep. They were not confined to barracks. They were 
sent out in flying columns and sent on from place to place, and got 
their rest along the roadside. That was to prevent them from get- 
ting in touch with the population, as the troops who are quartered 
in one place often do. Then there were also those which were con- 
fined to operations around barracks. They are the army auxiliary 
force, who get very good pay, one pound seven a day, I believe. 
They enlist as sergeants. They do the intelligence work and do the 
raids on the better class people, like the raid on Professor Carroll 
in Dublin. 

Q. Major Newman: They are under the military rather than 
the police, are they? 

A. Well, of course they are under the military now. Even the 
police are now. But they are directly under the military. 

GOVERNMENT DELIBERATELY INCITES TROOPS 
TO VIOLENCE 

These men are living under very bad conditions. We were told 
that a barracks in Dublin that would ordinarily hold one hundred 
fifty men was now crowded with several times that many. It is im- 
possible for them to live very regular lives. And besides this, they 
are kept in a very excited state of mind. There is a publication 
called The Weekly Summary given by the British Government to 
the Black-and-Tans in Ireland, and it purports to give a list of all 
of the crimes of Sinn Feiners against the Government. It is, of 
course, a deliberate incitement to violence. Copies of this have 
been produced in the House of Commons, and the Government has 
been very severely criticized about it, but without much result. 

Q. You say it is a direct incitement to violence. What is pub- 
lished in it? 

A. Well, you see, Sinn Fein is not supposed to have any arms 
in its possession at all. You are liable to arrest if you are found 
with them. For this there is a continuous search for arms. And 
on the other hand, there is a continuous carrying of arms from one 
place to another, — there is an "arms hunger" on the part of the 
Sinn Fein population. For that reason you get ambushes to get 
arms. The individual murders of policemen and the finding of 
arms are all printed in this Weekly Summary with — from the Brit- 
ish point of view— appropriate comments. 



593 

REMOVAL OF BRITISH FORCES FROM IRELAND 
THE CONDITION PRECEDENT TO PEACE 

The position of the British soldiers in Ireland is very difficult. 
They are not fighting an enemy that they can see. They, are in a 
hostile atmosphere. They are fighting everything around them. I 
don't know whether it would be of interest or not, but I have brought 
with me a cutting. It was sent to me by a service man on Decem- 
ber 4, 1920. It is therefore very recent, and it seems to me to give 
the psychology of the British soldiers now in Ireland very well : 

"Only those who have experienced the thrill of patrol work and 
raids in Ireland can realize the strain on the nerves. At any second 
we may meet an active antagonist. In Ireland the enemy is a 
shadow. A sinister death, rarely seen until it is too late to advance 
or retreat, may lie just around the corner. Many of our fallen com- 
rades never saw the enemy that shot them down. Any civilian who 
passes you by may swing around on his heel and surprise you. The 
enemy has no position to assail, no uniform to identify him, and no 
rules of warfare to be observed. There are no rest periods. We 
are liable to be shot on duty or off duty. A crowd at a football 
match suddenly begins to spit bullets at us. We are like targets 
there in our khaki. If we return the fire, it is claimed that every 
person wounded is an innocent person wilfully put to death by the 
armed forces of the Crown." x 

That is the situation. Of course, the Irish cannot fight openly 
because there is three million population against an Empire. And 
then, of course, the soldiers are in a disadvantageous position. I 
remember that my brother said, when he was stationed at Ennis be- 
fore things were so bad, that if a soldier were set upon in any way, 
they were ordered to go around the streets knocking people off the 
pavement, and that sort of thing. The removal of the soldiers is 
the condition precedent to any kind of peace. For of course, while 
British soldiers are being shot, you cannot do anything with British 
public opinion. Of course the Sinn Feiners say, "Well, if British 
soldiers were not getting shot, you would say we are all happy, and 
would pay no attention to us." The whole thing is a very vicious 
circle, as always happens when you resort to violence. 

I tried to get in touch with some of the parents of the victims. 
You cannot always do it, because many of the Royal Irish Constabu- 
lary are single men stationed in the barracks. But in our hotel in 
Limerick we got in touch with a mother whose boy of eighteen had 



1 The reference obviously is to the Croke Park football match, when 
Crown forces without provocation fired upon the spectators, killing 14 and 
wounding 60. The soldier here is expressing the British Government's 
justification for this massacre, which is disproved by the evidence collected 
on the spot by the British Labor Commission and the testimony of Thomas 
Nolan herein contained. 



594 

been shot in one of these raids. The English authorities said that 
the leaders were known and would be punished. I think her reply 
deserves to be quoted. She said: "I don't want Irish boys to be 
punished for what happened to my boy. I want the fathers to 
settle and put an end to this horrible work." 

EMPLOYMENT OF SPIES AND "AGENTS 
PROVOCATEURS" 

In addition to this, there are spies and agents provocateurs. We 
were held up in West Galway and got away by saying that we were 
English. You dare not keep a scrap of paper around. The diffi- 
culty of the spy system is this: the intelligence service of Sinn Fein 
is almost perfect, because they are dealing in a country where every- 
body is sympathetic. But there are now a great number of British 
spies in Ireland who are tracking down the men on the run, — that 
is to say, the men who cannot sleep at home at nights because they 
are wanted by the police. And so there are an enormous number 
of people engaged in holding down Ireland. And one of the argu- 
ments we are using to the taxpayers is that we are paying for this 
enormous body of men who are engaged in holding up the policy 
of Sir Edward Carson. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Are you sure that these age?its pro- 
vocateurs do exist? 

A. Mrs. Robinson : I think I have with me a copy of a docu- 
ment that was widely circulated in Belfast saying that if informa- 
tion was given about people who were wanted, a large reward would 
be given. I have seen these notices myself. 

Q. Of course that would not be the employment of agents pro- 
vocateurs. 

A. Miss Wilkinson: I was thinking of special agents employed 
for this purpose. In our hotel we met a group of officers who were 
engaged in this work; and they were very bitter because they said 
enough information had not been sent in. But the British intelli- 
gence service is now being perfected, I believe, by the Government. 

"MURDERS" OF POLICE USED BY GOVERNMENT 
TO JUSTIFY OPPRESSION OF IRELAND 

Q. Major Newman: Miss Wilkinson, did you obtain while in 
Ireland, or is there available as far as you know, any figures re- 
garding the number of ambushes or the killings of constables? That 
is, killings under circumstances such as are described in that cir- 
cular by this soldier? 

A. No, I don't think there is any list, because they are taking 
place every day. The difficulty is that a lot of killing is going on 
that does not come to light. Somebody is being killed all the time. 



595 

Q. Commissioner Addams: On both sides? 

A. Yes, constables are being murdered and Sinn Feiners are be- 
ing murdered all the time. It would be very difficult to get figures 
except from the statements issued by the British Government. 

Q. Mr. Manly: The British Government does issue such docu- 
ments, does it not? 

A. Yes, but the Sinn Feiners claim they are not true. And the 
Sinn Feiners issue statements that the British Government says are 
not true. " I have a statement issued by the English. There were 
something like five hundred murders up to November, 1920. The 
British Government claim that something like five hundred indi- 
vidual constables and military had been killed. There is a differ- 
ence between the British Government figures and the Sinn Fein 
figures, because the British Government includes people killed in 
an ambush, while the Sinn Fein count only individuals killed sepa- 
rately. They count persons killed in an ambush as killed in an act 
of war. 

Q. Major Newman: What were the dates covered by this five 
hundred? 

A. From the beginning of the killings to November, 1920. 

Mrs. Robinson: Those figures have been published by the Brit- 
ish Government. To date I think there are about six hundred. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: In your report you say that they 
count lives lost in the storming of barracks as not murdered because 
they are killed in an act of war. 

A. Mrs. Robinson : Yes, but our Government, does not take that 
attitude. It depends upon the point of view. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did not Lloyd George say that there was a con- 
dition of war there? 

A. Yes, but that is not the accepted idea. 

Q. Commissioner Newman: The British Government figures in- 
clude everybody killed in Ireland? 

A. Yes, on their own side. 

Mr. Manly: Yes, and those figures are also disputed by Sinn 
Fein as to the total number. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Sir Horace Plunkett is quoted as saying only 
yesterday that if the British people knew the number of lives lost in 
Ireland, there would be a very greatly aroused public opinion in 
England on conditions there. Do you know on what figures he 
bases that statement? 

A. The Witness: I am not quite so sure it is the number as the 
conditions in which it is done. If you take the British press, it is 
almost quiet on the subject except when a policeman is shot, unless 
it is some big figure like Mayor MacCurtain who has been shot. 
The English attitude is that they are murders in the case of our men, 
but only the killing of trouble-makers in the case of the Irish. If 



596 

you had American soldiers in Mexico, and if your American papers 
reported that your men were being sniped from behind houses and 
so forth by these murderers, whom we will call X, — that is the 
opinion that is being crystallized in England behind Lloyd George. 
That is why there is no great popular indignation that Britain, who 
went out to fight for the rights of small nations, is crushing a small 
nation right at her own doors. I think that the early murders did 
give the Carson and Lloyd George Government the very excuse from 
keeping their promises that they wanted. And while I think that 
English opinion at last is being aroused, they say that our own boys 
are being killed, and we don't think that our own boys would do 
the terrible things that you say they do, anyway. And we say that 
when you get these boys together and talk to them and fill up their 
minds with the idea that every Irishman is a murderer, you bring 
about a war psychology, and then you get the atmosphere that makes 
it possible for these things to be done. And that is why I say you 
must blame the Government rather than the boys who are doing 
these things. 

Mrs. Robinson: Irish history is not very well known in England. 
The situation in Ireland is very different from that of Scotland or 
Wales. You will find Scotland very well contented with the Union 
and Wales very well contented. You will find in England very 
little realization of the condition actually existing in Ireland; with 
the result that even though Home Rule was granted in 1914, it was 
granted without a realization that Ireland wanted to express her 
nationality quite apart from her individual rights. This Commis- 
sion must take into consideration that there is a very large section 
of public opinion in England that does not realize what Irish his- 
tory means and what Irish aspirations have been. And a very large 
section of our people are led to believe that the trouble in Ire- 
land is due to the extreme demands of a very small part of the Irish 
people and not the demands of the Irish nation as a whole. 

SOLDIERS IN IRELAND ARE MERE BOYS 

Q. Commissioner Addams: What was your impression about 
the age of the soldiers? 

A. Miss Wilkinson: Yes, as Mrs. Robinson said this morning, 
many of them are mere boys. Many of them, like in the camp at 
Athlone, are very, very young. Of course you must remember that 
we have no regular army in England now. The regular army was 
wiped out those first few months of the war. It is the boys who are 
being sent to Ireland now because the old army is dead. 



597 

GOVERNMENT AWARE OF AND ABLE TO STOP 
CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Q. Commissioner Newman : Is there any doubt that the Govern- 
ment is cognizant of what is happening in Ireland? 

A. Of course they are. But the reports that are being sent are 
reports that are given from the official point of view. But that is 
no excuse. 

Q. No, I didn't mean whether they are justified or not, but 
whether they are cognizant of what is going on. 

A. 0, I am perfectly sure, perfectly sure. And they could stop 
it if they wanted. 

CURFEW A COVER FOR DEPREDATIONS OF 
BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q. Commissioner Wood: May I ask another question before 
you go on? You said that they are increasing the intelligence de- 
partment with a view to tracking down men who are on the run. 
Now, as I understand it, these men who are on the run are tending 
to their own business in a perfectly orderly fashion during the day- 
time, but at night are liable to arrest if they could find them. Did 
you get any evidence as to why this was? Is that a terror policy 
or a safety policy? Why is it done? 

A. I don't know exactly why it is done. For instance, in Lim- 
erick the councilman Clonan, who is a member of the trades council 
and city council, tends to his business in the daytime and is ar- 
rested sometimes at night. Of course you must understand that 
when any kind of disturbance happens, curfew is immediately placed 
on the town. That means that the life of the city stops immediately 
at ten o'clock, and everything is absolutely dark. And that gives 
the Black-and-Tans an opportunity to do exactly what they like 
without anything happening to them. If they do anything, the 
people are asked, "Have you any proof that it was the Black-and- 
Tans?" No, of course not, because citizens found out after ten 
o'clock without a permit are liable to be shot. And it is of course 
impossible to get any evidence about what the Black-and-Tans do 
after ten o'clock. 

I know that at Limerick we were going out, and everything was 
going on splendidly; and then at ten o'clock the soldiers went on 
the streets and you were challenged by, "Who goes there?" Of 
course that is the point of the British soldier: he does not know 
whether the man who is coming toward him is concealing a revolver 
to shoot him unless he orders him to put his hands above his head. 
And if the man doesn't do it, the soldier shoots. And that has 
caused the shooting of a large number of innocent people. 



598 

RESIGNING BLACK-AND-TANS REPUDIATE SYSTEM 
OF TERRORISM 

Q. Did you find any evidence of any Black-and-Tans or any 
other Englishmen resigning because they will not continue in this 
situation? 

A. Of course, a soldier cannot resign. He must obey orders or 
go to prison or be shot. Several Black-and-Tans have resigned and 
have published in the English papers the reasons for their resign- 
ing. 1 They say their position is simply terrible. 

Q. Of course soldiers do resign as conscientious objectors, or 
take the penalty for going to jail. 

A. I don't know how it is in America; but it is one of the stand- 
ing jokes in England about the man who joined the army and then 
sent in his resignation. In the English army if you join the army 
and do not obey orders, you will be jailed or shot. 

Q. Of course it is a variety of mutiny. We heard that the Brit- 
ish troops refused to embark for Russia, but we have not heard 
about anything like that in regard to Ireland. 

A. Of course those things have to be done on a large scale to be 
effective. Of course if the British soldiers refused to go to Russia 
(Mrs. Robinson doubts that), they did it because they had no heart 
in the fight with the Russian people. But the British soldier goes 
to Ireland and gets caught up in the thing and loses himself. There 
were a couple of soldiers who came to us on the train for sympathy 
because they heard our English voices. One of these soldiers was 
telling us what he would do to the people at Athlone if he had a 
chance at them. And he was engaged to an Irish girl ! You do 
not get any contact, any human relationships between the Irish 
people and the British soldiers. And that is why they are moved 
from place to place. And of course what you are suffering from in 
Ireland is a lack of human understanding. It is a case of power 
and undiluted militarism. 

Q. Commissioner Newman: Did you find any soldiers who look 
at this affair like a sport, — like a big time for them? 

A. Well, there are one or two stories told about it, but I put 
them down as exaggerations; because when people's nerves are on 
edge like the Irish people's nerves are, you must expect some exag- 
gerations. For instance, there is the story of the soldier who stood 
at one end of the street and simply potted at the civilians for fun. 
We did not find any eye-witnesses about that. The soldiers that we 
were speaking to were absolutely sick unto death of the whole busi- 
ness. I should need very conclusive evidence before I believed 
that there is very much fun in it for them. 

1 The Black-and-Tan is nominally a constable, and hence able to resign 
at will. 



599 

Q. Senator Walsh : Do the letters which show the reasons for 
the resignations of the Black-and-Tans which were printed in the 
British papers indicate repudiation of the whole Black-and-Tan sys- 
tem. 1 

A. Yes. 

Q. It is a condemnation of that method of trying to restore peace 
there ? 

A. Yes. 

Mrs. Robinson : One of those letters I saw myself. It emphasized 
the great lack of discipline among the Black-and-Tans. There was 
no discipline, no rules for obeying orders. And for a certain type 
of man that was an unendurable position. 

Miss Wilkinson : And of course a great deal depends upon the 
type of man. There have been cases where the military have been 
able to enforce orders on the Black-and-Tans. Of course it is a 
great deal easier to say that the men have broken discipline, and I 
think the British Government is taking that as the easiest way out. 

WHY THE RECRUITING OF BLACK-AND-TANS IS 

EASY 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: What makes the recruiting of Black- 
and-Tans so easy, — general dissatisfaction after the war or unem- 
ployment or what? 

A. Well, of course, many ex-sevice men come back and are un- 
able to get into the regular army because the British army has 
raised the standards for service. And of course there is no such 
physical standard for the Black-and-Tans. Many service men have 
come to the end of the period for their war-time pay, and the work 
in Ireland pays well and the food is good. And then there is the 
love of adventure; and there are the black sheep you will find any- 
where who always love to fish in troubled waters. I think there are 
a great many people who are looking for that sort of thing; for you 
cannot switch off a man's moral nature like you would an electric 
light. You have produced these feelings by what has recently hap- 
pened. You have brought these men up to use force during six 
years of war, and then you cannot expect them to switch themselves 
off in a moment. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Have you any approximate figures as to 
the approximate number of Irishmen that have been killed? 

A. I am sorry I have not. 

Q. Is it more than six hundred? 

A. That covers only the English. 

1 The more recent resignation of General Crozier, for the reasons made 
public by him, is the worst possible indictment of undisciplined military 
fright fulness in Ireland, 



600 

Q. I thought you might have a memorandum there. 

A. I am sorry I have not. I thought I had it with me in my 
notebook, but I have not. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Perhaps Mr. Manly has some figures. 

A. Mr. Manly: I am having compiled for the Commission now 
a detailed statement giving names and circumstances of each indi- 
vidual which the Irish government claims has been murdered by the 
British officials, — a statement which is complete. 1 

Q. Since 1916? 

A. Yes, since 1916; and giving also the names and places of the 
creameries burned, and the arrests without warrant, and all those 
other facts. 

REMARKABLY LITTLE SEX CRIME 

Q. Commissioner Wood: May I ask Miss Wilkinson a question 
further? You mentioned the moral deadening which I am sure we 
all feel that the war has produced in the natures of men; for of 
course you cannot snap off men's moral natures like you would an 
electric light. Did you say that there is no sex crime in Ireland? 

A. Well, when we were there, we made very careful investiga- 
tion, and we found no cases whatever of outrages on women. We 
have been told since that such cases have occurred. We have been 
told by Mrs. Sheehy-Skeffington, for instance (she is a prejudiced 
witness, of course), that outrages have occurred on women. But 
we found no case at all where sexual outrages on women have oc- 
curred. We have had cases where women have been roughly han- 
dled, of course. And even that would happen where the men were 
sober; although such cases usually happened when the men were 
drunk. When I speak of rough treatment, I mean that the men come 
in the middle of the night, and the women are driven from their 
beds without any clothing other than a coat; they are run out in 
the middle of the night and the house is burned. For women in 
delicate health that, of course, is terrible. And for women expect- 
ing children the mere fact of men coming like that and the nervous 
tension is terrible, of course. It would not be so bad if the raids 
took place in the daytime. But we have no evidence of sexual out- 
rages taking place. 

Q. It is a very remarkable tribute if such is the case. We have 
had no instances of it from either side. 

A. Of course, to be quite fair, the Sinn Feiners themselves be- 
gan the cutting of girl's hair. When in certain cases the Irish girls 
went out in the evening with English soldiers, the Sinn Feiners sig- 
nified their disapproval by cutting off the girls' hair. And of course 
in some cases reprisals were taken by the English soldiers cutting 

1 See Exhibit II. 



601 

off the hair of girls who would not go out with them. And of 
course strong Irish opinion came out at once against it, and it was 
stopped. 

PARLIAMENTARY SPEECHES ON IRISH ATROCI- 
TIES BOYCOTTED BY ENGLISH PRESS 

Q. Chairman Howe: Have the facts such as you have related 
been discussed in detail in the House of Commons? 

A. By means of questions and in debate, of course. 

Q. The debates have been pretty full on the Irish question, I 
suppose. 

A. Yes, Commander Kenworthy did take that young girl who 
was shot, I believe, and she gave her evidence before a select com- 
mittee in a committee room in the House of Commons. But there 
has never been anything like the political situation we have in 
England before. For the first time there is no effective opposition 
in the British Parliament. Mr. Lloyd George got an overwhelming 
majority behind him. And of course very many other questions 
than the Irish question come in when there is any division on 
Ireland; for by our constitutional custom, when the cabinet is de- 
feated on one serious issue, the Government on that day resigns. 
Well, of course, that puts men in a position where they have to face 
the question whether they want to turn the Government out. And 
on that issue the Carsonites have held the Coalition Government 
together, so that you get only Labor and the Free Liberals discuss- 
ing when these matters are debated in the House of Commons. 

Q. We have seen only the reports of Mr. Asquith's speech on the 
Irish question, and possibly a few questions in the House of Com- 
mons. But there have been other speakers also? 

A. Oh, yes, a very large number. Mr. Henderson and the 
leaders of the Labor Party and a very large number of other Lib- 
erals, — Mr. C. F. G. Masterman and Sir John Simon and other 
prominent men. I don't know whether you read the English Nation, 
but there was an analysis in the English Nation of the space given 
by the Harmsworth and Coalition papers to the speeches given on 
Ireland to the space given to any other question that might come 
along. You See, there is this boycott in the English papers, and it 
is difficult to get people to realize it. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you see anything of the interference by 
Dublin Castle and the forces under their control with the newspaper 
reporters in Ireland? 

A. We did not see it personally, but of course we did hear a 
great deal about it, especially the interference with Mr. Hugh 
Martin. 

Q. I was wondering if you had met Mr. Hugh Martin? 



602 

A. No, I did not meet him while I was in Ireland. The facts 
of that, of course, were very fully published. 

Mr. Manly: They have not been published very fully in the United 
States. 

Commissioner Addams : They came before us once. 

The Witness: I would rather, if I may, keep to the things I have 
actually seen. 

RAIDING AND BURNING OF HOUSES AND FARMS 

The next heading is raids. In this connection I have handed in 
to Mr. MacDonald a large number of photographs. I am not sure 
how much you have heard about this already from the other wit- 
nesses. 

Commissioner Addams: But those things you have seen would be 
interesting. 

The Witness: Well, first of all, in Limerick. 

Q. You are not Irish? 

A. Oh, no; I am from Lincolnshire. I believe I have some 
Irish blood from somewhere, but it happens to be Orange. With 
regard to Limerick. Of course, one has to realize that for each case 
that we investigated, a reason was given by the English press for it. 
That is to say, it was in the nature of a reprisal for some damage 
done. Brennan's, near Limerick, I have already described, where 
the house and hay were burned down. 

Q. What had the Brennans done? 

A. Well, the two sons of the old lady were on the run. Miss 
Brennan had managed the farm for two years. The military were 
endeavoring to find where the Brennan boys were, because the 
Brennans were important people from the Sinn Fein point of view. 
And they also wanted to cut off their supplies, because these men 
were being supplied, naturally, from their own farm. The Black- 
and-Tans came up in lorries and the women were turned out on 
the road and the house was set on fire. While we were there the 
house was still smoldering and the hay was still burning. 

We saw a number of similar cases in Limerick. A man named 
Cain, a man with eight children, was taken out of his home, and 
they were going to shoot him, but his wife begged for his life, and 
they did not. Then when we went on to Ennistymon'and Lahinch, 
we found a number of houses burned there. At Miltown-Malbay a 
Captain Lendrum had been kidnapped, and the soldiers threatened 
reprisals if he was not returned; and his dead body was laid in a 
coffin and returned to theni. Of course that made the soldiers very, 
very excited. The Catholic priest tried to intercede, but the soldiers 
were out of control. At Lahinch the houses were only left as a 
shell. The soldiers went along the street and burned every house, 



603 

as the small photos I have given you show. Then the draper's shop, 
which had no connection with Sinn Fein, because it was owned by 
a widow who was keeping her son in college, — that was burned. 
Then the concert hall was also burned. 

Then we went to Ennistymon, where the town hall w r as burned 
and a large amount of property demolished. That, of course, was 
a reprisal. We saw a great many farms that had been burned in 
the area all around Miltown-Malbay, and Lisdoonvarna also, but 
that we did not see. The people there were in a very terrible state. 
They had to go out onto the seashore because of the destruction 
of their homes. 

BRITISH MILITARY SUPPRESS PUBLIC INQUIRY 
INTO GALWAY OUTRAGES 

At Galway what had happened was that a soldier was shot at the 
station. The Sinn Fein version of the story was that the man had 
been shot while shooting at civilians. I don't know. But anyway, 
this soldier named Krumm was shot. And then the police and sol- 
diers went out that night and took three men out of their homes, — 
one was named Quirk, and two others were taken out and shot. 
Then the town was afraid of reprisals. And they decided to hold 
a public inquiry and to invite the police to give evidence. Mr. 
Louis O'Day was the solicitor for the town, and led the case for 
the town. 

Q. Major Newman: Who decided to hold an inquiry? 

A. The municipal authorities of Galway, who were all Sinn 
Fein, of course. The town authorities wanted to hold this inquiry. 
Of course, any kind of assembly in Ireland now is illegal unless it 
is held with a permit. So the town tried to hold this inquiry, and 
soldiers came and dispersed the assembly, and Mr. Louis O'Day 
would not go home. But that night his home was entered and de- 
molished; and the office of the Galway Express was demolished be- 
cause it had printed the speech which Mr. Louis O'Day had in- 
tended to deliver at this investigation. The curfew was put on for 
three weeks. It was not on when this happened, for Galway had 
been very quiet. Following this there were a number of reprisals 
in Galway; houses were burned, and Mr. Walsh, who owned the 
Old Malt House, was taken out and killed and his body thrown into 
the river. 1 I mention Galway because the excuse of the military 
authorities is that they cannot get a jury because, of course, no 
Irishman will serve on an English jury. But here was a case where 
there would have been an investigation by the municipal authori- 
ties of the town, but the military authorities broke it up. Then, of 
course, there was the breaking up of that shop called the Bal in 
Galway. 



See direct evidence of Miss Nellie Craven. 



604 

DEVASTATION IN TUAM 

Then we motored to Tuam. Tuam was in a horrible shape. The 
houses and shops were destroyed. I had an interview with the 
Archbishop of Tuam. He does not want his name mentioned in any 
way, but he gave me certain signed statements of atrocities on civil- 
ian people, some of them by the military and Black-and-Tans and 
some by R. I. C. men. Some of these statements are in the hand- 
writing of the parties making them. The only connection that the 
Archbishop has with them is that of guaranteeing their authenticity; 
but he does not want his name mentioned with them in any way. 1 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Do you want to read them for us? 

A. Well, they are very long. I think you might consider them 
yourselves. I just handed those in. 

Q. Thank you. Were they all in the town of Tuam? 

A. They were all in the town of Tuam. 

Q. They have all been printed? 

A. They have been printed. Of course, they are only a repeti- 
tion of what you must already have had. Of course I can read 
them if you want. 

NIGHTLY TERRORISM IN CORK 

My friend and I went to Cork the night after the burning of the 
city hall. We had always come just after things had occurred, but 
we got to Cork at a very tense moment. We asked the driver to 
drive us to a hotel right near the city hall. He protested violently, 
but he finally took us to the Imperial Hotel right near the city hall. 
Curfew was at ten o'clock. We went to our room. According to 
law, no one is supposed to have a light or look out of the window. 
But we turned out our lights and wrapped ourselves up and went 
to the window. 

Q. Major Newman: What date was this, Miss Wilkinson? 

A. This was October eleventh, I think. 

Major Newman: That is near enough. 

The Witness: First of all there came the soldiers in extended 
formation, each one of them wearing tin helmets — the shrapnel hel- 
mets — and carrying guns with fixed bayonets. And then came three 
armored cars packed with soldiers. And then after them came a 
lorry which had petrol in it, I suppose. 

Q. Were these soldiers or Black-and-Tans? 

A. As far as we could gather, these were soldiers. There may 
have been Black-and-Tans among them. Everything we saw was 
by the aid of a searchlight at the end of the street. But those who 
were marching were all soldiers. They went on by, and when they 

1 The documents are incorporated in Exhibit III hereof. 



605 

came back they fired into the houses at a certain level. We saw the 
bullet marks the next morning. That, of course, is a terrible thing. 
Many people have been killed on account of this indiscriminate 
shooting from motor lorries. And then they withdrew to the city 
hall. It was not blown up that night. It was blown up later. But it 
was an extraordinarily eerie experience, this absolutely quiet street, 
and then these soldiers coming along, and these bullets whizzing 
past your head. This had happened, it was said, on account of an 
ambush of police or soldiers in Barrett Street, a poor section of the 
city where the houses had been burned. And these soldiers were 
ambushed, it was said, from these burned houses. It was pretty 
terrible altogether. The day we came, the military had broken up 
several shops. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: How long did this last, — your per- 
sonal experience? 

A. It lasted from ten until three. There was the roaring and 
the shooting and the calling of "Who goes there?" 

Q. Major Newman: Was there any retaliation from the Irish 
people? 

A. Not that we could see. But there has been, of course. But 
that is not usually done in the towns but usually in the country, be- 
cause it leads to such terrible reprisals. This ambush in Barrett 
Street was quite unusual. Usually ambushes take place in the 
country. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Did there appear to be officers in 
command? 

A. Yes, of course there were officers in command. This was a 
disciplined motion of troops through Cork, and the officers were 
very clearly with the men. As far as I know, there were no burn- 
ings that night, no burnings of houses. The city hall has been blown 
up since, but it was not done that night. One could just go along 
with instances like that. But the number I have handed in rather 
includes most of those I know of. 

REPRISALS VICTIMIZE INNOCENT WOMEN AND 
CHILDREN 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Those were your own personal in- 
vestigations, of course. 

A. Yes, my own personal investigations. What is happening, of 
course, is that whenever ambushes occur or soldiers are killed, the 
reprisals take place on the community immediately. What happens 
is that the women and children are thrown out, petrol is sprayed on 
the house, and it is burned. One could just go on multiplying in- 
stances. They all conform to the same type, 



606 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Did you discuss with any of the 
civilian population as to what their attitude was toward the strategy 
that provokes such terrible reprisals? 

A. Yes, we tried to. But of course you must realize that it is 
difficult to get information in Ireland now. And then we were Eng- 
lish, and as the Irish woman we talked to said, she made it very 
clear that she was not going to give in because her house had been 
burned down. But if she had felt very different she would not have 
said so to us. Of course, that is the difficulty of any investigation 
in Ireland. It is hard to get any information at all. 

ATTITUDE \N BELFAST TOWARD ATROCITIES 

Mrs. Robinson: In Belfast I was met with the statement that as 
far as the north is concerned, those who were killed were mur- 
derers who were executed. The result is that there are two govern- 
ments in Ireland, two sets of laws, and two sets enforcing these 
laws. And the police, I was told, were simply seeing to it that the 
Sinn Fein laws could not be carried out. It is, of course, a most 
impossible situation. 

Commissioner Addams: Are there any questions to ask Miss Wil- 
kinson? 

SOUTHERN UNIONISTS RIDICULE DANGER OF 
CATHOLIC USURPATION 

The Witness: I will then go on to the question of the Southern 
Unionists. We considered that very important, because they are 
three hundred thousand of the population in the south. And of 
course at one stage of the Ulster agitation great play was made of 
the fact that an Ulster Parliament alone would not settle the matter, 
because you would then leave these Southern Unionists to the mercy 
of the Irish. That was a great point prior to 1914. 

My brother happens to be a Wesleyan minister, and he gave me 
introductions to Wesleyan ministers in Ireland, and I had conversa- 
tions with them. And I found that they entirely ridiculed the idea 
that the southern Unionists were in any danger from the southern 
population. And if you take Limerick alone, many of the most 
prosperous business places in Limerick are owned by Unionists. 
And this Tninister said that, generally speaking, the Irish people 
trusted them completely, and they had no trouble at all. And gen- 
erally speaking, they were much more fearful of what the Crown 
forces would do than what the Sinn Fein forces would do. I pressed 
him to know what he meant, and his wife gave this example: when 
they were firing one place, there was a Protestant store just oppo- 
site which had two young men, assistants, living in it (which, of 



607 

course, is the custom in Ireland). And these young men came and 
tried to help extinguish the flames. And the British soldiers tried 
to set a light to their place to give them something to do in their 
own premises, although it was owned by a Unionist and a Protes- 
tant. And he spoke of the gun-running at Larne. And he said that 
gun-running was the worst mistake that the Government had made; 
and they could never get any peace in Ireland at all until the troops 
were taken out. He said that the agitation for Home Rule was mere 
sentiment on the part of the Irish, because there was no reason why 
they could not live as comfortably within the Empire and united to 
England as the Scotch. But since they would not, the only reason- 
able thing was to give them what they wanted. 

POLICY OF GOVERNMENT IS ALIENATING 
UNIONISTS 

He gave me another case that shows how the policy of the Gov- 
ernment is turning many of the Unionists against it. There were 
two Protestant business men whose property was destroyed. And 
one of them wrote a letter to the military authorities complaining 
of the destruction of his property. And the response was that the 
officer in charge on that occasion was not quite responsible for his 
actions since he got back from the war, that he was a little bit 
queer. And that was the only answer he got! 

JUSTICE OBTAINABLE IN SOUTH ONLY THROUGH 
SINN FEIN COURTS 

Then, with regard to the courts and the doing of justice. The 
Sinn Fein courts work in secret. It is not possible to get justice in 
the southern part of Ireland at all except through the Sinn Fein 
courts. At the time of the death of Lord Mayor MacSwiney the 
Prudential Assurance Company was actually pleading through a 
Sinn Fein court. I asked these men if they had ever been in a Sinn 
Fein court, and they said they had. One of them had a case of 
petty theft of some rugs that had been left outside his place, and 
he appealed to the Sinn Fein court to get the goods restored. They 
were restored, and he was told that the culprits had been punished. 
All of the Unionists whom I saw in southern Ireland said that it 
was impossible that home rule should not come to Ireland now. 
They were very bitter over what they called the selfishness of Ulster; 
that when they saw home rule was coming, they simply wanted 
Ulster cut off, and left the rest of them to their fate. That, of 
course, has been strongly put in the House of Lords by Lord Mid- 
dleton. They feel that the only thing, under the present situation, 
is to give Ireland dominion home rule as soon as possible. I think 
that that is all on that subject. 



608 

NO PERSECUTION OF PROTESTANTS IN CATHOLIC 

SOUTH 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Did you find any cases of religious 
intolerance on the part of the Catholic majority against the Protes- 
tant minority? 

A. No. That is surprising. There is no complaint of it what- 
ever. The Methodist ministers told me to emphasize that whenever 
I could, that the Protestant people had always had the most cour- 
teous treatment from the Catholic population. I think that is im- 
portant, because in the south there is no reason to fan the flame 
of religious intolerance. Because, of course, if the Unionists had 
fanned the flame of religious intolerance there, they would have 
been the ones to suffer. I interviewed the Lord Mayor of Limerick, 
and he said that on the relief committee formed for these unem- 
ployed workers there were both Catholics and Protestants, and that 
nobody in southern Ireland would ask you your religion any more 
than they would in England. 

IRISH PARLIAMENT ALONE CAN DECIDE 
RELATION OF IRELAND TO EMPIRE 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Did you talk to any Sinn Feiners 
who told you that dominion home rule would not be enough? 

A. I don't know as I would care to answer that. Sinn Fein de- 
mands, of course, complete independence. Many of them demand 
to leave the British Empire altogether. Many of them say that that 
is the maximum demand, and that there might be something be- 
tween that and the utterly inadequate home rule bill before Parlia- 
ment now. Does that answer your question? I don't think that it 
is our business to say what Sinn Fein will or will not accept. It 
is a matter for them to decide among themselves. ' 

Q. Is there a general disposition to say that that is a matter 
that can only be decided by the Irish Parliament? 

A. Well, that, I think, is very certain. I don't think that any 
real peace offer can be made from England or from Ireland unless 
it is made through Dail Eireann, because the Irish Government is 
undoubtedly the de facto government of Ireland, and proposals can 
only come through that. 

Q. May I ask about the English Government? When British 
Labor made resolutions about self-determination, did they mean ab- 
solute self-determination, or self-determination within the British 
Empire? 

A. I should say that British Labor is divided on that point; the 
Socialists and the left wing would say to give Ireland absolute right 
to say what she wanted. But there is a very considerable, well-in- 
formed body which say that to have a lot of little nations like we 



609 

have in Central Europe and Czecho-Slovakia, none of whom are 
strong enough to maintain their independence, is simply an invita- 
tion for a stronger power to be their master. And this section claims 
that Ireland would be far safer, and that we would be far safer, 
with her in the Empire. We do not hold Canada by force, and we 
do not hold Australia by force. Arid we could not do so. They re- 
main in the Empire not because they have to, but because they want 
to remain in. And of course, the unfortunate thing is that the 
policy of the militarists in Ireland and the policy of the Ulsterites 
is driving the Irish people to want to go out of the British Empire 
altogether. But, of course, whether British Labor would agree to 
Ireland's going out of the British Empire, I could not say. The 
general trend of the resolutions is largely to shelve that issue and 
get the two sides together and get something done. 

REMOVAL OF TROOPS THE FIRST STEP TOWARD 

PEACE 

Q. Chairman Howe: From what you say, I take it that the first 
step is to get out the troops. 

A. Yes, yes. The contribution of our League was that the local 
government, during the period of the truce, should be left to the 
local bodies. Where Sinn Fein had a majority, they should say; 
and where others had, they should say. 

It might be well to say here that the Dublin Metropolitan Police, 
after some of them were killed, plead for their own disarmament. 
And since then none of them have been killed. And I am per- 
fectly sure, apart from the hatred for the Black-and-Tans, after the 
British soldiers were disarmed they would be quite safe. Of course 
that would be laughed at, I am afraid, by a large number of people. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Of course, what it amounts to is 
that you have troops and Black-and-Tans sent to preserve law and 
order in Ireland, and they create the very disorder they are sent to 
keep down. 

A. Yes, but of course that happens in labor disputes too. The 
police that are sent in labor disputes to quell disorder usually create 
it. That always happens with the use of violence and physical 
force. 

TRAGIC NEED OF RELIEF FOR VICTIMS OF 
REPRISALS 

Q. Commissioner Wood: In the districts in which you were, you 
saw a very considerable need for relief in those sections? 

A. Well, of course, the need for relief is simply something ter- 
rible. I was in touch with some people who were giving out the re- 
lief. These people's homes are destroyed. Everything they had 



610 

was destroyed. The only thing they have is what they stand up in. 
They have no hope of compensation, because if they apply for com- 
pensation, it only means that their neighbors have to pay it. The 
situation is terrible. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Is relief being administered by this 
committee in the north? 

A. No, that is purely a local thing. That is only for the ex- 
pelled workers. Generally speaking, it is administered through the 
Irish societies. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Are there any English or Scotch 
societies administering relief? 

A. No. Of course they are contributing to it very largely. 
There is only one exception, I believe. The Society of Friends is 
giving relief, and certain members of it are thinking of arousing 
English opinion by persuading individual English towns to adopt 
Irish towns. And we were opposed to that because we said that re- 
lief of that kind was simply a salve to the British conscience; and 
if people wanted to give relief, it should be given in justice and not 
in charity. 

Mrs. Robinson : I understand that Miss Louie Bennett, secretary 
of the Irish branch of the Women's International League, is also 
coming to give testimony. She would know a great deal about that, 
you see, because she is occupied with that work at the present time. 

MILITARY STATUS OF BRITISH RED CROSS 
PRECLUDES ITS HELP 

Q. Commissioner Wood : Did you see any evidence of the Brit- 
ish Red Cross or the International Red Cross doing work in Ireland 
at all? 

A. No. Of course our idea of the Red Cross is quite different 
from yours. The Red Cross service, as far as we are concerned, 
is only a branch of the military organization. 

Q. It is not connected with the military organization? 

A. No, it is a part of the military organization. I do not think 
anybody would dream of appealing to the Red Cross in Britain. It 
is formed by the army officers and the fashionable people. Nobody 
has thought of appealing to the Red Cross at all. 

Q. Is there any difficulty about sending in relief, except per- 
haps the taboo on the sending in of packages? 

A. No, I don't think so. 

Q. No difficulty put in the shape of transport of food by lorries, 
and that sort of thing? 

A. Well, of course there is not a shortage of food in Ireland, for 
it is largely an agricultural country, so much as the difficulty of 
distribution of food and clothing and providing buildings. But in 



611 

actual practice you could not send things by rail because the rail- 
ways will not run. 

IS AMERICAN RED CROSS RELIEF PARTIALLY OR 
POLITICALLY ADMINISTERED? 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: But the Red Cross of England, as 
you understand it, is part of the military organization? 

A. I don't know anything about the English Red Cross what- 
ever. I would rather not answer questions about it, Madam Chair- 
man. 

Commissioner Addams: Very well. I realize that it is a mili- 
tary organization. 

Commissioner Maurer: The reason I am asking this question is 
that I want to know about our own Red Cross. I inquired this 
morning from you (indicating Mrs. Robinson) if the Red Cross was 
doing anything in Ireland. I was told by Senator Walsh that the 
American Red Cross had been appealed to, to do relief, work in Ire- 
land and said it could not do it. I was told later by a newspaper 
correspondent here that the American Red Cross in Russia is feed- 
ing the people on one side of the line and not on the other. Now, 
if the British Red Cross is part of your military machine and does 
not operate except in case of war, then it would be interesting to 
know why the American Red Cross refuses to take action. 

Senator Walsh: I ought to have added that it is claimed that our 
Red Cross in America is a governmental institution; that its presi- 
dent is the President of the United States; that its ex-officio officers 
are governors of states; and that international complications would 
be involved in its operation in any country of the world without the 
consent and permission of that country. And I think that that sit- 
uation existed at the time of the war; and before we entered the war, 
in 1914 and 1915, our Red Cross was unable to do work in Ger- 
many because of this official relationship. And there was organized 
a neutral organization not governmental in character known as the 
American Relief Commission in Belgium, which got permission 
from the German Government to operate in Belgium. And it is my 
opinion that there can be no effective relief work done in Ireland 
unless there is some American Commission such as the American 
Commission for Relief in Belgium organized, and permission is se- 
cured from the British Government to do work in Ireland. 

Commissioner Maurer: Thank you, Senator, for the information. 
Another point: during the Denikin and Wrangel and other generals" 
drives in Russia, I was informed by the press that the Red Cross was 
in that particular part of Russia that was trying to oppose the Soviet 
Government. And yet at no time did I read that any Red Cross was 
up in the other part of Russia where the Soviet Government pre- 
vailed. 



612 

Mrs. Robinson: May I interrupt just here. I think that the Red 
Cross in Russia was the Geneva Red Cross. 

Commissioner Maurer: Pardon me. I think the American Red 
Cross was in Russia too. 

Commissioner Addams: I think that is a domestic affair. 

Commissioner Maurer : I also understand that our Red Cross was 
not in that particular part of Russia where the Soviet Government 
ruled. Now, I would like to find out if this Red Cross of ours in 
America is partial or political. I want to find out now, since they 
could go to some particular part of Russia but not to other parts, 
and cannot go to Ireland, — those are the things that interest me. 
Perhaps some day I will find out. 

SOUTH IRELAND WILL MAKE CONCESSIONS TO 

ULSTER 

Q. Commissioner Wood: May I ask if you found in the south 
of Ireland, Miss Wilkinson, any fear of Ulster domination? Do 
they look at Ulster as a big industrial group in Belfast? Did you 
hear of any fear, in case they combined with Ulster, that Ulster 
would dominate them? 

A. Oh, no. 

Q. That is, that being a big industrial group with large num- 
bers of factories, that they would dominate Ireland? 

A. No, quite the contrary. As far as I could gather from the 
Sinn Fein judges and politicians, they were prepared to go to very 
great lengths to overcome what they called "Ulster prejudices" so 
long as Ulster would remain in Ireland and thus keep Ireland united. 
They were prepared to give Ulster any kind of government she 
wanted, any kind of taxation she wanted. But they wanted Ulster 
in Ireland because they believe that once the English influence was 
removed from Ulster, that in time the two sections would get to- 
gether. And they feel that if Ulster has a Parliament of her own, 
she will be controlled by England, and that will only cause further 
trouble in the country. But of course there is no fear of Ulster 
domination at all. The fear is on the other side. The Ulster poli- 
ticians fear a Catholic domination. 

MAJORITY OF ENGLISH PEOPLE OPPOSED TO 
GOVERNMENT'S IRISH POLICY 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Now, to turn to the English side. You 
have been addressing large meetings in England on the Irish ques- 
tion. What has been the reaction at these meetings as you have 
told of your investigations in Ireland? Has it been incredulous 
enthusiasm or suppressed indignation? 

A. Well, generally speaking there has been very high indigna- 
tion. Great indignation has been expressed when we have told of 



613 

the actions of the military in Ireland. And great astonishment has 
been expressed when we told about the general situation in Ireland. 
I am perfectly satisfied that if any referendum could be taken, the 
majority of the English people are not behind the Coalition Gov- 
ernment on this issue. The Coalition Government was elected on a 
very different mechanical issue, and had nothing to do with this 
question. It stays in for five years from 1918; and until that time 
it can do as it likes because it has a Parliamentary majority. I feel 
that there is a very grave feeling against the Coalition policy; and 
it would have been very much greater if it had not been compli- 
cated by what is called the murders of policemen. 

i 

SOURCES OF PREJUDICE AGAINST IRISH IN 

BRITAIN 

Q. Do you feel that what is called the religious prejudice bulks 
large in English public opinion? 

A. I think there is a great deal of prejudice against Roman 
Catholicism, but it is not very bitter except in places like Liverpool, 
where there are, of course, as many Irishmen as there are in any 
Irish city. And again, there are a good many Irish who have gone 
as laborers to Presbyterian Scotland. And there is a very large 
amount of prejudice against them for this reason: until just prior 
to the war the Irish were very badly off in their own country and 
were forced to emigrate. The country could not keep them all. 
Ireland says that that was due to the crushing of the country's in- 
dustries. The English Government says that Ireland could not keep 
that number of people. These laborers were taken, for instance, to 
Dundee, Mrs. Robinson's home, and put to work in the jute mills. 
That problem was much like your Japanese problem in California, 
I should imagine. The Irish came in and accepted lower wages 
and much lower standards of living; and that made popular preju- 
dice against them. But of course, during the conditions growing 
out of the war, the Irish Transport Workers were able to organize 
the workers. The Irish workers got used to a much higher standard 
of living; for of course they had not accepted a lower wage in Eng- 
land because they wanted to, but because they had to. That has 
been stopped, I think, by the N. U. R., which has been able to get 
a very much better wage for the railwaymen; and other workers 
have been able to do this also. 

Q. You think this economic grievance has been stopped since 
the war? 

A. Very largely. But these two factors, the religious prejudice 
and the economic aspect of employment at low wages, have caused 
a certain amount of feeling against the Irish in some sections in 
England. 



614 

Q. I don't think Mrs. Robinson gave us the information this 
morning about the effect of conscription in Ireland upon the sit- 
uation. 

A. Well, I think Mrs. Robinson meant that I had had trade 
union experience. You see, in England conscription was not popu- 
lar before the war. And since the war a very strong feeling has 
set in against it. If you say, "Is there a feeling against Ireland be- 
cause she did not send soldiers to fight?" I would say that now 
that does not exist among labor people at all, because the reaction 
against the war among labor people has wiped that all out. Does 
that answer your question? 

Q. Yes. It is frequently said here in America that Ireland did 
not stand by England during the war. She would not accept con- 
scription. 

A. I think that was very strong in England during the war. 
Most of the English people regarded the 1916 rebellion as a stab 
at England in the back just when we were at our darkest hour in 
the war; because 1916 was a terrible war year for us. And I think 
on account of that, the English people acquiesced in the shooting 
of the leaders of the rebellion ; because, as many English officers 
have told me, it was treason for. the Irish not to fight with them. 
But I think in a very curious way the English people have come to 
realize that it was not altogether their war; and the English people 
have come to recognize that feeling on the part of the Irish. I don't 
think that prejudice exists now except in military circles. Take, for 
instance, our treatment of conscientious objectors, which is almost 
a parallel case. They were released shortly after the peace, and 
there isn't any organized prejudice against them at all any more. 
I think the position regarding Ireland is the same case. 

Mrs. Robinson : I think I should go further and say there is an 
understanding of the Irish position during the war now. 

MORE CIVIL LIBERTY IN ENGLAND THAN IN 
AMERICA OR IRELAND 

Q. Commissioner Maurer : Can you hold meetings and say 
anything you want to about the Government policy now? Can labor 
unions meet and criticize the government? 

A. Yes, of course, in case you do not get up and urge the over- 
throw of the Government by force and revolution. 

Q. Did you have during the last few years a great deal of trouble 
from so-called Reds and Bolsheviks, and all that? 

A. What do you mean? Miss Addams, explain it for me. 

Q. No, I am trying to find out something about England. I am 
trying to compare American democracy with British democracy. 
And you say that your conscientious objectors were given their 
freedom completely after peace was signed? 



615 

A. Yes, yes, indeed. 

Q. And do you have any political prisoners still in jail? 

A. No. — Yes, well, there is Sylvia Pankhurst. But you ran 
say almost anything you want to about the Government providing 
you use common sense. But of course you cannot do it in Ireland. 

Commissioner Maurer: Well, we cannot do it in America. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Do you say that the anti-militaristic forces 
in England have increased tremendously since the war? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. So that your people are pretty much set against militarism 
in their Government? 

A. Well, I don't want to be too definite. I mean every kind of 
peace society has increased its membership and has increased its 
power, and there is a very real revulsion against war. There is not 
one of us, not a home that has not given something, — that has not 
gone through a very terrible experience. When the Polish war came 
along, the British Council of Action really expressed the opinion 
of the overwhelming majority of the country that we were not going 
to have another war. And all those influences united, and kept us 
out of that war. I do not say, of course, that the jingo press would 
not be able to fan up flames for another war; but there is a tre- 
mendous feeling against militarism. 

Senator Walsh: I think that answers my question. 

VARYING SENTIMENTS OF ENGLISH PRESS 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Mrs. Robinson spoke of three or four 
papers that carried some reasonable amount of correct Irish news. 
The rest of the press is not all Coalition press, is it? 

A. 0, no. 

Q. The Northcliffe press is one group that criticizes the Govern- 
ment considerably in regard to this, is it not? 

A. Yes; of course there are the Northcliffe papers and the pa- 
pers owned by the Coalition Government; and then papers like the 
Daily Chronicle. 

Q. But do the Northcliffe papers criticize this Irish policy? 

A. Well, the Northcliffe press speaks with so many voices; it is 
very difficult to say of the Harmsworth press that it has any steady 
policy. As far as the Times is concerned, it has stood very con- 
sistently for moderation and home rule. But as regards the Daily 
Mail you could not say that. 

Q. Now, as for the voices from the colonies, is there any par- 
ticular comeback from the colonies? 

A. As far as I know there has been nothing clone in the colonies 
at all; nothing official in the way of proceedings. 



616 

ULSTER ISSUE AN INSINCERE EXCUSE FOR 
GOVERNMENT'S IRISH POLICY 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: It is often said in this country in 
the name of England that the whole question would be simply 
solved were it not for Ulster; that England stands ready to give 
Ireland anything if only Ulster were out of the way. I don't mean 
to ask you whether the people who say that are sincere, but whether 
it really does bulk large in the minds of the English people. 

A. To say that is to say, suppose that English history had been 
entirely different. You see, this policy has gone on for several hun- 
dred years. The policy of the British Government for all these gen- 
erations has been to keep the Protestant minority in Ireland de- 
pendent entirely on England. So you have got the Pale around 
Ulster. 

Q. May I interrupt? The Pale was Catholic until the Reforma- 
tion, was it not? 

A. Yes, the Pale was. And there were plantations under the 
most Catholic Queen we ever had, — Mary II. And the Pale was 
included then. But the O'Neals of that time came from Ulster, — 
and Ulster is the place of the great Irish heroes. But when it came 
to plant Ulster, the Irish were driven off the land more completely 
than in any other part of the country. And so Ulster has been kept 
dependent on the English ascendancy, and Ireland has been kept 
divided most wonderfully. Of course, this is not a British policy. 
The policy of Divide and Govern is an old one. 

Q. Senator Walsh: The regular imperialistic policy. 

A. Yes, the regular imperialistic policy. So that you see it is 
quite impossible for a British statesman to get up and say, "If only 
the Irish could agree among themselves, we would be prepared to 
give whatever they wanted." The answer to that is the attitude of 
the Coalition Government toward the Convention. 

Q. You mean the Horace Plunkett convention, for the sake of 
the record? 

A. Yes, quite. There was the Horace Plunkett Convention called 
by Sir Horace during the war. From what he said to us, they got 
far beyond their expectations in getting the Ulster leaders to admit 
that the Irishmen haven't horns and tails. And just as they were 
giving their report, — the very same week Mr. Lloyd George came 
forward with his plan of conscription for Ireland. That was tear- 
ing up his promises to the Convention. And of course the whole 
thing fell through on that. Now, then, if the British Government 
were sincere that they would give Ireland what it wants if it can 
agree, they should not do things that make it impossible for that 
agreement to be reached. I think it is sincere when a good many 
people say it, because they do not understand the history of Ireland, 
I don't think it is sincere when the Coalition Government says it, 



617 

"SAFETY OF THE EMPIRE" ARGUMENT 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Is there a feeling that Ireland, if it 
were allowed to go on its own, would adopt some new experiment 
in government? 

A. I think there is that feeling very largely in England. But 
the much more real fear in England is that Ireland would be used 
by an enemy for a submarine base. It was said by the British Gov- 
ernment that Irish creeks were used by the Germans as submarine 
bases during the war. I don't know how true that was. Of course, 
the Government says it was a German submarine that landed Sir 
Roger Casement. That is a real danger, I suppose. 1 But we are 
doing so much harm by keeping the issue alive. Ireland can be 
won. We can win Ireland to friendship if we set about doing it. 

Q. I was wondering if you had heard, in your public life in 
England, any discussion about that. 

A. Well, I think it is being said, of course, just as the subma- 
rine scare is being used. 

Commissioner Wood: Thank you very much. 

Senator Walsh: Miss Addams wants to put something into the 
record. 

Commissioner Addams: Perhaps Miss Wilkinson would read it 
(handing letter to Miss Wilkinson to read). 

Miss Wilkinson (reading) : 

"Dear Miss Addams: 

"I regret that personal reasons make it quite impossible that 
I should be one of the party which goes over to give evidence 
before the American Commission on Ireland. I made it par- 
ticularly my business to enquire into the effect upon the eco- 
nomic situation in Ireland of British policy, and for this pur- 
pose interviewed business men and women who had taken no 
prominent part in politics, and some of whom had been Union- 
ists, although not politically active. 

BRITISH POLICY OF TERRORISM AND ANARCHY 
CAUSING ECONOMIC RUIN 

"I found a universal conviction that Great Britain's policy 
had in the past been directed to limiting or even hampering 
Irish economic development in the supposed interests of Brit- 



1 Eamon de Valera, elected President of the Irish Republic, in his letter 
to President Woodrow Wilson of Oct. 27, 1920, transmitting Ireland's 
Request to the Government of the United States of America for Recog- 
nition as a Sovereign Independent State, specifically pledges the readiness 
of his government to give adequate guarantees, as part of a treaty of 
peace between Britain and Ireland, that Irish harbors shall never be used 
as bases for aggressive warfare. 



618 

ish firms. They were of opinion that the British Government 
was now pursuing its policy of terrorism and anarchy in com- 
plete disregard of the economic ruin it would cause in Ireland. 
I was shown evidence by Mr. Riordan, secretary of the Irish 
Industrial Development Association, that British firms were re- 
fusing to supply goods to Irish firms as far back as August, 
1920, because the British Government had laid an embargo on 
them. This evidence consisted in copies of the letters written 
by the English firms making this statement. 

"I append a resolution passed by the Council of Cork Indus- 
trial Development Association (whose treasurer, Mr. Coleman, 
has recently been murdered I which clearly shows the prevail- 
ing impression to which I allude. 

"I was in Cork the night (October ninth) that an attempt 
was made to destroy the City Hall. An incendiary bomb set 
one wing alight, and it was gutted; but the fire brigade was able 
to prevent the flames from destroying the whole building. The 
explosion occurred at about 4 A. M., and astonished no one, as 
there had been the assassination of a soldier (aged seventeen 
years and five months) the day before in a Cork street, and 
reprisals were the rule. 

OUTRAGES AT MALLOW COMMITTED BY BRITISH 

SOLDIERS 

"I visited Mallow and saw the eight houses, the Town Hall, 
and Cleeves' Creamery, which had all been gutted by fire. 
There was no single person I spoke to who had the least doubt 
that this outrage was carried out by soldiers from Mallow, 
Buttevant, and Fermoy. The Black-and-Tans here tried to 
check the arson. Men using a hose were fired on by soldiers. 
I had interviews with the parish priest (Canon Corbett) and 
Mr. William O'Brien (late Nationalist M. P.), and they gave 
exact details of the raid by Republican forces on the Mallow 
barracks, for which the sacking of Mallow was revenge. Canon 
Corbett told me that the poor people, women and children, 
flocking up the hill to take refuge in his church, were fired at 
by snipers hidden behind walls, and he was convinced that they 
were soldiers. While in Mallow a lorry load of some dozen 
Royal Irish Constabulary men in dark green uniforms motored 
through the little street, all the men seated with their faces 
turned to the footpaths and their rifles on the knee, pointed at 
the footpaths. I saw no firing, but was told by Mr. O'Brien 
that there had on previous days been firing into the ruins of 
the houses. 

"I found Dublin in a state of the highest nervous tension, 



619 

armored cars and tanks patrolling the streets. The unarmed 
police seemed the safest people. 

"I am yours very truly, 

"H. M. Swanwick, 
"Chairman, British Section, Women's Inter- 
national League." 

Miss Wilkinson: There is appended to this a list of the people 
interviewed by Mrs. H. M. Swanwick with the express purpose of 
hearing the opinion of non-political people devoted to the financial, 
industrial, and agricultural development of Ireland: Sir Horace 
Plunkett of the Irish Agricultural Organization Society; George 
Russell, known as 7E., the editor of the paper of the Agricultural 
Society; Mr. Riordan, Secretary of the Irish Industrial Development 
Association and author of "Modern Irish Trade and Industry"; Liam 
de Roiste, Secretary of the Cork Industrial Development Association ; 
Mr. Smith-Gordon, of the National Land Bank, Dublin ; Mr. Thomas 
Johnson, of the Transport Workers' Federation ; and Miss Whitby, 
of the United Irish Women. 

The resolution of the Council of the Cork Industrial Development 
Association reads as follows: 

"At a meeting of the Council of the Cork Industrial Develop- 
ment Association held on Monday, September twentieth, the 
following resolution was passed: 

"This Association, representative of the commercial and in- 
dustrial interests of Cork, expresses its pleasure at the advent 
of the ships of the United States Mail Steamship Company to 
the Port of Cork, which we feel confident will lead to a big 
development of trade and intercourse between Ireland and 
America. 

"TRADITIONAL REPRESSIVE ECONOMIC POLICY" 
OF ENGLAND 

"We condemn the action of the British Government authori- 
ties in their prohibition against American passenger vessels 
entering Cork Harbor on the east-bound voyage. We regard 
such prohibition not as an isolated incident, but as part of the 
traditional English policy of maintaining control of the seas 
and preventing the shipping expansion of other nations. We 
also regard it as part of England's traditional repressive eco- 
nomic policy against the development of Ireland's trade and 
commerce, which policy ruthlessly pursued has reduced the 
population of our country from eight millions to four millions 
within the past seventy years. 

"We look to the United States administration, and in particu- 



620 

lar to its Shipping Board department, to insist upon freedom 
for its vessels to enter Irish ports, and we are sure the whole 
Irish people will cooperate with any action taken by them in 
this respect, as it is to the interests of our country that its ports 
be free to all vessels, and it is our desire to maintain direct 
intercourse with all nations." 

Commissioner Addams: Thank you very much, Miss Wilkinson. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 

Are there any announcements to be made for tomorrow, Mr. 
Howe? 

Senator Walsh: First I want to thank these ladies for their splen- 
did, impartial testimony, and especially to commend their courage — 
for I think we can all appreciate that they required courage, and 
their love and devotion to humanity in general, which I think is 
apparent to all from their testimony here. 

Commissioner Addams: I am sure we are all very glad to hear 
Senator Walsh say that. It is what we all think. 

Chairman Howe: The hearings will reconvene tomorrow morn- 
ing at ten o'clock, and the witnesses are 

Mr. Manly: The Misses Walsh, the sisters-in-law of the mur- 
dered Lord Mayor MacCurtain of Cork, Miss Anna Walsh and Miss 
Susanna Walsh. 

Chairman Howe: Are there any other witnesses? 

Mr. Manly: There will be, if there is time for them. 

Chairman Howe: The session is adjourned. 



REPORT OF CONDITIONS IN IRELAND MADE BY 

THE WOMEN'S INTERNATIONAL LEAGUE 
(Incorporated in the record by direction of the Commission.) 

"The following report of conditions in Ireland was pub- 
lished by the English Section of the Women's International 
League for Peace and Freedom after the return of ten members 
who had formed a mission last October to visit Ireland to col- 
lect first-hand evidence of the condition of the country, and 
come back to tell British people what was being done in their 
name. 

"The Irishwomen's International League was communicated 
with, and cordially welcomed the mission, giving every pos- 
sible facility for obtaining information. The first portion, con- 
sisting of Mrs. Watts (Manchester Honorary Secretary) and 
Mrs. Swanwick (Chairman of Executive Committee) went on 
October fourth. There followed Mrs. Annot Robinson, Dr. 
Catherine Chisholm, Miss Amy Herford, Mrs. Gee, Miss Wil- 
kinson, and Miss Melland, all of Manchester; Miss Mewhort 
and Mrs. Dollan of Glasgow. 



621 

"The Mission felt a special international responsibility to 
inform itself of how the nations within the British Empire are 
being treated by our Government, and although its members 
endeavored to discover the truth in all cases, they do not pre- 
tend to have gone to Ireland with minds bare of principles. 
They are women organized for constructive peace, and as such, 
they hold that freedom is the first condition of peace. They 
are against violence in all forms; they would welcome the dis- 
arming of all men; they regard killing and maiming and ter- 
rorism, by ivhomsoever it is practiced, as barbarous and politi- 
cally vicious. 

INQUIRY COVERS DIFFERENT PARTS OF IRELAND 

"Different members of the Mission went to different parts of 
Ireland in order to cover the ground as quickly as possible. 
The towns and villages were: Belfast, Derry, Lisburn, Dublin, 
Balbriggan, Limerick, Lahinch, Ennistymon, Tuam, Cork, and 
Mallow. 

"The situation in northeast Ulster was, as they were aware 
it must be, widely different from that prevailing over the whole 
of the rest of the country. But those who visited Belfast, Derry, 
and Lisburn came to the conclusion that differences between 
the Irish people there would be much more readily settled if 
Great Britain ceased interference. 

SINN FEIN GOVERNMENT SUPPORTED BY 
ENORMOUS MAJORITY OF PEOPLE 

"In the whole of the rest of Ireland the conditions resembled 
each other and were different from those in Belfast. The Sinn 
Fein Government has the enthusiastic support of the enormous 
majority of the population. To a degree never witnessed be- 
fore by any of the women, it is possible to say that Dail Eireann 
governs with the consent of the people. Although members of 
the Government are proscribed, their courts illegal, and their 
revenues forfeit, one can truly say that without them Ireland 
would be given over to sheer anarchy. 

WAR 

"Without expressing any opinion on the matter, the Mission 
records the fact that all Sinn Feiners regard themselves as at 
war with the British Government of Ireland, and look upon 
any deaths that may occur in raids upon barracks or armed 
soldiers and police as 'casualties of war,' whether these 'cas- 
ualties' are on their own side or the other. This fact must be 
taken into account when estimating the deaths on either side. 
Sinn Fein asserts that in nine months of 1920, 62 civilians have 
been murdered by the forces of the Crown, while if they were 
to add to them the number of Irish who have fallen 'in war' 



622 

these would run into hundreds. In the Government estimate, 
on the other hand, all members of the forces of the Crown who 
have been killed, whether by assassination (like Mr. Bell in 
Dublin) or in 'war,' are added to the account of 'murders' car- 
ried out by the 'murder gang.' The Mission does not justify 
either 'war' or 'murder.' It draws attention to the fact that the 
Irish people draw a distinction between the two, a distinction 
which common opinion does justify. 

"Members of the Mission spoke personally with many of the 
surviving relatives of men murdered by the forces of the Crown, 
or with men whose assassination had been attempted and failed. 
English papers for the most part do not record these, while 
they record and amplify all on the other side. 

"The Government campaign against Sinn Fein is carried out 
in the following ways: 

"(1) Terrorism; 

"(2) Destruction of Irish Agriculture and Manufacture and 
Trade; 

"(3) Propaganda. 

TERRORISM 

"They found in the East, West, and South that the so-called 
'reprisals' against the civilian population were sometimes or- 
ganized by the soldiers who are English, and the majority very 
young indeed) ; sometimes by the Royal Irish Constabulary 
(who are largely Irish); and sometimes by the new armed 
forces attached to the constabulary, who are mostly English 
ex-service men, many of them ex-officers). It was not infre- 
quent that where one of these bodies had organized a bombing 
and incendiary party, another had tried to protect the people 
and their houses. Sometimes evidence was clear that the mili- 
tary or police were drunk; sometimes equally clear that they 
Were sober. Sometimes there was method in the destruction, 
only known sympathizers with Sinn Fein being attacked; 
sometimes the destruction was perfectly indiscriminate; some- 
times, as in the murder of Mr. Lynch in Dublin, it seemed likely 
that the man was killed in mistake for another. It was per- 
fectly clear that many of the raids were authorized and were 
not due to the men getting out of hand. Military lorries, in- 
cendiary bombs, petrol and ammunition are not at the free dis- 
posal of the private soldier at his own caprice. Terrorism has 
been increased by the prohibition of inquests and the holding 
only of Courts Martial by English soldiers. 

"In addition to innumerable outrages by Government forces 
which have left 'devastated areas' resembling those of Belgium 
in all the places the Mission visited, the regular raids by police 
and military are conducted in such a way as to strike terror as 
widely as possible. After curfew, when the streets are in pitch 
darkness and no civilian may be abroad without a permit, the 



623 

military lorries, armored cars, and even tanks rattle through 
the streets carrying armed search parties. They batter at doors, 
and if the inhabitant take so much time as is needed to slip on 
shoes and a coat, the front door is smashed in and the house 
filled with armed men. They lock the women and children 
away, frequently with no covering but their night-dresses, and 
search with the utmost brutality, tearing up mattresses, break- 
ing open locks; frequently the Mission had evidence of very 
serious thefts and of the wanton destruction of pictures and 
ornaments in houses where nothing incriminating could be 
found. 

"The presence of secret agents, spies, agents-provocateurs, 
was a frequent subject of conversation, and added greatly to 
the prevailing state of nervous tension. The Mission heard 
many stories of the placing of incriminating evidence (such as 
arms, ammunition, or seditious papers) in a raided house by 
some secret agent of the Government, who came as 'guide' or as 
secret service man. 

DESTRUCTION OF IRISH TRADE AND INDUSTRY 

"The Mission has to record that it found a conviction among 
the Irish people that it is the purpose of the British Govern- 
ment to ruin Irish trade and industry in order to drive the 
young men to emigrate. The destruction of creameries, which 
are entirely unpolitical, of factories (such as Balbriggan Ho- 
siery Factory), and of hay-stacks by the score, is inevitably 
leading to the unemployment of large numbers of people. It 
was pointed out that Queenstown Harbor has been closed to 
eastbound traffic, but is open for west-bound traffic; and Lord 
French's indiscreet speech (when he said that the present trou- 
ble was due to the presence in their own country of two hun- 
dred thousand young men who would 'normally' have emi- 
grated) was quoted everywhere as showing the real object of 
the Government in what seemed otherwise a purely motiveless 
mischief. 

"When a business concern or farmer makes a cktim for com- 
pensation for destruction by the forces of the British Govern- 
ment, the sum awarded is laid (by the 'Malicious Injuries Act') 
upon the Irish people for payment. 

"On the day of the departure of the Mission, Ireland was 
greatly concerned at the threat to hold up altogether the rail- 
way and postal services in reprisal for the refusal of railway- 
men to carry British soldiers and ammunition, and for the 
raiding of the mails by Sinn Feiners. 

ANTI-IRISH PROPAGANDA 

"The Mission found the Irish people indignant at the use of 
the press and public platforms for the suppression and dis- 
tortion of news, and for the fomenting of hate toward the Irish 



624 

people. It was shown copies of a printed sheet called the 
Weekly Summary supplied by the Government to the Black- 
and-Tans, and filled with incitements to bad feeling; this sheet 
persistently identified the whole Sinn Fein movement with 
what it called the 'murder gang.' Attention has been drawn to 
this abominable sheet by people of decent feeling, and later 
numbers have been more circumspect. No. 3 contained the 
following passage: 'They (the Black-and-Tans) will go on 
with their job, the job of making Ireland once again safe for 
the law-abiding, and an appropriate hell for those whose trade 
is agitation and whose method is murder.' 

"The Mission had repeated evidence of the attempt of the 
British Government to fasten upon Sinn Feiners the responsi- 
bility for outrages of which the Government forces were guilty, 
and Mr. George's speeches were frequently cited as gross in- 
stances of distortion of fact, when he suggested that the Gov- 
ernment forces were only defending themselves from attack, 
and entirely ignored the sacking and looting, the 'murder and 
arson' (to use Judge Bodkin's words), of which there were 
scores of examples in all the towns and villages visited by the 
Mission. 

RECOMMENDATIONS OF COMMISSION 

"Based on all the facts collected, the devastated areas the 
Mission saw, the conversations they had with Sinn Feiners, 
Dominion Home Rulers, Unionists, business men, mothers and 
widows of murdered men, workers of both sexes, they formed 
certain conclusions: 

"(1) Ireland at the General Election, 1918, by constitutional 
election chose her own Government. A majority of over 70 
per cent, was cast for Sinn Fein, and by the overwhelming con- 
sent of the people the Irish Parliament (Dail Eireann), meet- 
ing in Ireland, rules over the Irish people. 

"(2) As a necessary consequence, the British Government, 
attempting to rule against the will of seventy per cent, of the 
people, can do so only by force complicated by fraud. Spies 
and informers are an essential part of the Government where 
the mass of the people are hostile. There is no cooperation 
between governors and governed, and the army of occupation 
(whether military proper or armed police) is demoralized by 
perpetual and agonizing fear and the constant use of debasing 
methods of espionage and lawless intimidation and revenge; 

"(3) This state of affairs can lead only to the economic ruin 
of Ireland and great economic injury to Great Britain; to a 
still more disastrous moral injury to Great Britain and to her 
reputation in all the world; 

"(4) The Mission therefore advocates the immediate libera- 
tion of Irish political prisoners and the offering of a truce dur- 
ing which all armed force shall be withdrawn, and the keeping 



625 

of order be placed in the hands of Irish local elected bodies, 
thus creating conditions under which the Irish people may de- 
termine their own form of government." 

(Signed by the above-named members of the Mission.) 



FOURTH HEARINGS 

ON CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 
Session Two 

Before the Commission, sitting in the Hotel LaFayette, Washing- 
ton, D. C, Wednesday, December twenty-second, 1920. 

10:40 A. M. 

Commissioner Addams in the chair. 

Commissioner Addams: The Commission will be in session, 
please. The first witness is Miss Walsh from Cork, Ireland. You 
are representing Miss Walsh, are you not, Mr. Walsh? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh : Yes, I am. 

SIR HAMAR GREENWOOD FALSELY REPUDIATES 

WITNESSES 

Madam Chairman and Members of the Commission : Subsequent 
to the last hearing an article appeared in a great many papers of 
the country, especially the New York Times and others, in which 
it is stated that the witnesses who appeared here and testified as 
members of the Royal Irish Constabulary had been repudiated by 
Sir Hamar Greenwood, and the insinuation made by him that they 
were not members of the Royal Irish Constabulary. So we want 
to offer before this Commission absolute proof of the claims of 
these witnesses that they were members of the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary. The first evidence is a parchment certificate of character 
to Mr. John Joseph Caddan. This is a certificate of character that 
is only given on application, and he was the only one who applied 
for one. You will note that they say that his conduct during his 
service was an exceptional one. And the others have a certificate 
of appointment to the Royal Irish Constabulary duly signed by the 
proper officials of the British Government. Mr. Caddan, whom I 
believe was the most important of these witnesses, has a character 
certificate in addition to a certificate of appointment. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Have you a copy of the statement whereby 
it was claimed that they were not members of the Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary? 

A. Mr. F. P. Walsh: No. The statement was that Sir Hamar 
Greenwood had repudiated their testimony as members of the Royal 
Irish Constabulary, and that he asserted that there were no mem- 
bers of the Royal Irish Constabulary in this country, and that pass- 
ports had been given to none. 

Senator Walsh: If you will produce those statements, the Com- 
mission will cable, calling upon him to substantiate them. 

Commissioner Addams: We will be very glad to have the record 
clear on this. 

626 



627 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I will undertake to get the articles in question. 
Commissioner Addams : Now we may proceed with the witnesses. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS SUSANNA WALSH 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: State your name to the Commission. 

A. Susanna Walsh. 

Q. Where do you reside? 

A. In Cork, Ireland. 

Q. You arrived in this country when? 

A. Day before yesterday. 

Cj. And you sailed from where? 

A. From Cork. 

Q. On what date? 

A. On Sunday week. 

Q. Are you related by marriage to the late Lord Mayor Mac- 
Curtain? 

A. Yes, my sister was his wife. 

Q. Were you a member of the household at the time he was 
killed? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. I was born in Cork. 

Q. Have you been in Cork all your life? 

A. Well, I have been on the continent. I had traveled in France, 
Spain, and Italy, and I came home on a holiday just before the war 
started. 

Q. What war, — the great war? 

A. The great war, yes. 

Q. And you have been in Cork ever since that time? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Are you engaged in some business or some profession? 

A. Well, after school I went to France and took up a position 
as a teacher of English in a French family. I had been two years 
in France, and I came home, and my mother, who did not like my 
being with foreigners, put me in business. But I had no taste for 
business. And then after that I went to Spain, where I lived for 
five years. That young lady I taught there learned English in a 
very short time, and the gentleman paid for a trip for us in France 
and Italy. And I came home to be pulled up a bit — my health was 
not good; but since then I have been pulled down. 

MANAGED BUSINESS DURING BROTHER-IN-LAW'S 
IMPRISONMENT 

Q. What business are you in now? 

A. During my brother-in-law's absence in prison he wrote to me 
to ask me to superintend his business. He did a big wholesale flour 



628 

and feed business. I joined about that time the society called 
Cumann na m'Ban, which was formed for the sole purpose of help- 
ing the Irish Volunteers. That society of Cumann na m'Ban was 
formed by literary women and working girls, and they all did their 
best to help the Volunteers. And then my brother-in-law asked me 
to live with his family and manage their business. 

EFFECT OF MURDER ON HEALTH OF FAMILY 

Q. Have you photographs of your late brother-in-law and his 
wife? 

A. My sister has them. 

Q. I believe I wired to your sister and asked her to come over 
here and give testimony. 

A. 0, she could not come on account of her health. Shortly 
after the murder she gave birth to two babies. They had been dead 
for some time. And her health is broken down. 

Q. So she was not able to travel? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Is that a true picture of your brother-in-law? 

A. Yes, that is a true likeness. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I want to offer that in evidence (handing 
photograph to Commission). We are having copies of that made. 

Q. I will ask you to look at that photograph and say who that 
is, please. 

A. That is my sister with her little boy, who was twelve months 
old. 

Q. When was that taken? 

A. That was taken after the rising of Easter Week. Her hus- 
band wrote from prison and asked her for the picture. 

Q. And what is her age? 

A. She is thirty-two. 

Q. What was Lord Mayor MacCur tain's age? 

A. Thirty-five years of age the day he was buried. 

Q. Now look at that picture. Is that a picture of your sister- 
in-law? 

A. Yes, of my sister. 

Q. When was that taken? 

A. It was taken after the murder. 

Q. What is the health of your sister now? 

A. She is only the mere shadow of her former self. She will 
never be the same again. She has aged terribly. She has gray 
hair now. She is almost a physical wreck. 

Q. Whose picture is that? 

A. That is her little son, five years old. We call him Thomas 
Og. 

Q. That is, the son of Thomas? 



629 

A. Yes. 

Q. And you had a younger brother? 

A. Yes, he was in prison for five months, and then he died. 

Q. Of what malady did he die? 

A. Double pneumonia. 

Q. When he went to prison, was he a healthy man? 

A. Yes, very; seventeen stone weight and a very large, power- 
ful man. 

Q. Now you have another brother. 

A. Yes, this is my younger brother (indicating photograph). 

Q. What is his name? 

A. James Joseph Walsh. 

Q. Where is he now? 

A. Well, he has been on the run since he gave evidence at the 
inquest of my brother-in-law. He cannot stay at home since then. 

BUSINESS ABILITY OF MAYOR MACCURTAIN 

Q. Miss Walsh, in what business was your brother-in-law en- 
gaged? I wish you would give a short story of him. 

A. He started in as a clerk in a steam packet company. He 
came from the farm when he was a mere boy. He had to work 
from six in the morning until eight o'clock in the evening; and 
after that he went to learn Irish and became proficient in it in a 
very short time. And when he had mastered it himself, he taught 
it to others. He was in the Gaelic League, and he taught at nights 
at Blackpool. 

Q. Where is Blackpool? 

A. It is a suburb of Cork. 

Q. About how far from the city? 

A. About a quarter of a mile outside of the city. He taught 
Irish there for two years three nights a week. Two of my sisters 
went to this Gaelic League. One of them, Mrs. MacCurtain, went 
there very regularly. Up to the time of his death he worked con- 
stantly for Ireland. 

Q. He went into business for himself in the city of Cork? 

A. Yes, this flour and mill store. He was a very good business 
man. He took that over and was very successful for a time. 

Q. What was the name of the business? He was alone in it? 

A. Yes, it was his own business. He was alone. 

Q. Now just describe the business, — its size. 

A. He bought and sold meal in very large quantities, because 
the majority of people around that district are all cattle feeders. 
So he supplied the people of that locality with flour and meal in 
very large quantities. 

Q. Did he have a warehouse in Cork? 



630 

A. Not at that time. That was later. I will tell you later why 
he started a factory. After Easter Week the British authorities tried 
to ruin his business. He would buy meal in large quantities, and 
they would pike it, often every sack of it. 

Q. What do you mean by piking it? 

A. They would run their bayonets through it. They said they 
were searching for arms and ammunition. It meant a terrible loss, 
for they would pike the sacks, and the meal would go all over the 
street. The result was that when he came out of prison, he said, 
"This will never do. I must keep my family. And I can't run the 
business if this goes on." So it was a matter of brain against brain. 
He adopted the method of buying grain in Dublin and Belfast and 
selling it direct, so that it did not have to touch the shop and it 
could not be injured. It did not pay for him to stand behind the 
counter and sell goods. When he came out of prison the next time 
he got the idea of starting this ladies' underwear factory there. 
And it did very well. 

Q. How many employees did he have? 

A. Only twelve or thirteen at that time, but since then it has in- 
creased, and since his death. 

Q. How many hands now? 

A. Thirty. 

Q. Is it in Cork? 

A. No, we have the Blackpool establishment. 

Q. What is the Blackpool establishment? 

A. We had the flour and grain business there, and at the back 
is where we had the factory. 

Q. I think it would be informative to the Commission if you 
would just describe the occurrences with reference to your own 
family and your relations with Lord Mayor MacCurtain, beginning 
at the first of your relations and bringing it down to the time of his 
death. 

SICK-ROOM INVADED BY ARMED CONSTABULARY 

A. Well, they started about 1916. At that time we had taken a 
nice suburban residence about two or three miles outside of the 
city, and we had settled down there, my sister and myself. Mr. 
MacCurtain wanted us to go to Blackpool, but we didn't want to go 
there, because it was a very big business center and rather rough, 
and we were bringing up our niece. However, I will come to that 
later. We were living there; and one morning I was nursing my 
sister, — she had double pneumonia, and my mother had just come 
out of the hospital. I was in the act of making a poultice for her 
this morning when three or four policemen broke into the place. 
They had fixed bayonets and rifles. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Can you give the date of that? 



631 

A. I cannot say. It would be in 1916. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: How long after Easter Week? 

A. About three weeks. 

Q. What time of day was it? 

A. Oh, they never raided us in the daytime. This was at night. 

Q. What time of night? 

A. About three o'clock in the morning. I was in the act of 
making the poultice for my sister, and they came rushing in and 
searched drawers and wardrobes and turning everything upside- 
down. And then they went out. 

Q. Who were they? 

A. The Royal Irish Constabulary. 

Q. How many? 

A. About six of them. 

Q. Did they carry arms? 

A. Yes, rifles with fixed bayonets. 

Q. Who were there? 

A. My mother, my sister Anna, and myself. The children were 
in the board school. 

MACCURTAIN HOME RAIDED TWENTY TIMES 

Well, that was the first time. Then when Mr. MacCurtain asked 
me to run his business, I thought I ought to do it; it was really 
Cumann na niBan work. And therefore I threw my heart and soul 
into the work, and did my best to keep the little place afloat. On 
several occasions they raided that place. 

Q. Senator Walsh: The club house? 

A. No, my sister's house in Blackpool. 

Q. There was no club house there? 

A. No, we simply had our store there, and lived over the place 
of business. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now, as near as you can, approximate the 
dates of these various raids. Just give us all of them. 

A. That would be some months after this. My brother-in-law 
was in jail at the time. They were arrested after the rebellion of 
Easter Week. There was no charge against him. And there was 
no uprising in Cork at all. He was deported to England to Read- 
ing Jail, and from there to Frongach, a place in Wales. It was 
used during the war time as a place for German prisoners, but not 
considered a fit place for prisoners. But they thought it was good 
enough for our men, and shoved them all in there. 

Q. How many times was your home raided after the killing of 
the Lord Mayor? 

A. I should say at least twenty times. 

Q. Twenty times? 



632 

A. Yes, twenty times at least. 

Q. Now, you might epitomize, if you will, by giving us an ac- 
count of these various raids. 

A. They were always at the dead of night by the members of 
the Royal Irish Constabulary. They were never until twelve o'clock 
nor after four in the morning; and we were generally asleep, need- 
less to say, at that time. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What did they raid the house for? 

A. I do not really know. Sometimes for arms and ammunition, 
they said. Sometimes they would not give us any reason at all for 
breaking into our place. 

Q. Did they search for any documents? 

A. Sometimes they would break into bookcases and the like. 

Q. Were there ever any arms in your house? 

A. 0, never. 

Q. Did they ever take away any papers? 

A. Well, I think they took away copies of The Irish Irelander, 
as it was called at that time. It was a paper published by the Irish 
Republican Party. 

Q. Now you may proceed and give an account of these raids on 
the house. 

POLICE MAKE RAID TO EXAMINE HOUSE 
PRECEDING MURDER 

A. On one occasion, three days before one of Mrs. MacCurtain's 
babies was born and a few days after the burial of another, they 
raided the house. And despite the fact that she was in bed, they 
made a thorough search of the room. The last raid was about a 
month before the murder of my brother-in-law. The strange thing 
was that they did not seem to be looking for documents, but they 
seemed to be examining the house thoroughly and taking measure- 
ments. 

Q. Did they examine the whole house? 

A. Yes, upstairs and downstairs and in the factory. 

Q. How many were on that raid? 

A. There were six of them I saw upstairs. I don't know how 
many more of them there were. 

Q. All with rifles and bayonets? 

A. With rifles and bayonets, yes. 

Q. And all members of the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

A. Yes, all members of the R. I. C. 

HEALTH SHATTERED BY REPEATED RAIDS AND 
TERRORISM 

Q. What effect did that have on the health of the members of 
your family? 



633 

A. Well, it meant that it undermined our health. My mother 
was an invalid and my sister was an invalid. And I am only a 
shadow of my former self. 

Q. Senator Walsh: How much weight have you lost? 

A. I have lost about twenty pounds. 

Q. In what time? 

A. Since 1916. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: During all those years have you ever had 
sufficient sleep, for instance? 

A. No, for the past eight months I had not had a good night's 
rest. 

Q. That applies to your sister? 

A. Yes, to Mrs. MacCurtain too. 

Q. How many children has Mrs. MacCurtain? 

A. Five. She buried one boy. 

Q. Give the names of these children, please, and their ages. 

A. There is Siboan Eta, who is ten; Shina, seven; Thomas Og, 
he is five; Maun is three; and Eiblis, the baby. 

Q. Chairman Howe: What would the equivalents be in our own 
language? 

A. That is a thing we are very loath to do, — to translate Irish 
into English. But, however, for the benefit of the gentlemen I will 
translate them. 

Miss Anna Walsh: Mr. MacCurtain was opposed to having the 
names of his children pronounced in English. 

Miss Susanna Walsh: Perhaps I can pronounce them phoneti- 
cally. Yes, that was one thing he wanted to do, — that all the chil- 
dren should converse fluently in their Irish language. 

Miss Anna Walsh: He would rather that their names were not 
even pronounced in English. 

Senator Walsh: She said she had not had a good night's rest for 
eight months. Please describe that. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Please describe that. 

A. Well, the Black-and-Tans come out at ten o'clock when the 
curfew comes on. The motor lorries will go up and down all night 
long. And sometimes there is a bomb explosion. You never know 
when they are coming to raid your house and explode a bomb. You 
can't sleep very well in those conditions. 

LORD MAYOR BRUTALLY MURDERED BEFORE 

FAMILY 

Q. At what date was the death of the Lord Mayor? 

A. The twentieth of March. 

Q. 1920? 

A. Yes, this year. 



634 

Q. I wish you would detail that and give the circumstances. 
You were in the house then? 

A. Yes, I was in the house at that time. 

Q. How many were in the household? 

A. We were all living there then. There were fourteen. We 
had three orphaned nieces there too. 

Q. What were the ages of these children? 

A. One was sixteen, a girl of fourteen, and a boy of eleven. 

Q. Just describe the inmates of the house, who they were. 

A. There was another sister. She had charge of those, and I 
took care of the three oldest children, Siboan Eta, Shina, and 
Thomas Og. And my sister Anna occupied the back room on the 
second story, and my brother James the back room on the opposite 
side of my sister's. And downstairs my mother slept, because she 
was an invalid, and we gave her the room on the first floor. And 
adjoining that was Mr. MacCurtain's bedroom. And they had the 
little baby in the cot in the corner by their bed. And they heard a 
slight knock at the door. It was about one o'clock. 

Q. How long was this after that last raid where they appeared 
to be examining the house? 

A. About one month. There was a slight knock at the door 
about one o'clock or quarter past one. Mrs. MacCurtain heard it, 
and she put her head out of the window and called to them to find 
out what they wanted. And they said, "Open the house quickly or 
we will break the door in." Mr. MacCurtain wanted to go down. 
He said, "I will go, Mary." And she said, "No, you mustn't. I 
will go down." But before she could get down to the door, it was 
bursted in. Eight or nine men rushed in, with blackened faces and 
long coats, and caught her. Several of them held her, and the rest 
rushed upstairs. At the same time, — I had a little red coat I used to 
throw over me, and I went out to the top of the landing. I heard 
the noise downstairs, and I heard the baby cry, and I ran down- 
stairs to take the baby, for I knew that my brother-in-law would be 
in a terrible way. And I arrived at the first landing just as two 
big men with blackened faces and big rain coats on them got to 
his door. And I heard the first man say, "Come out, Curtain!" 
And my brother-in-law said, "Give me time to dress. I am not yet 
ready." When my brother-in-law said, "Give me time to dress," 
I said, "Give me the baby, please." And they pushed me back. 
And I ran back to the bath room, and I heard my sister shout. 
"Murder, murder, the police are murdering us all." And a neigh- 
bor woman who lives next door said, "Who is shot?" And she 
said, "My brother-in-law, MacCurtain. The police are murdering 
us all." I rushed upstairs. I thought I would die with all of them. 
And as I went upstairs I heard heavy moaning in the corner, and I 



635 

looked, and my brother-in-law lay just outside his door with blood 
oozing from the region of his heart. 

Q. Just one moment. Did you hear the shots fired? 

A. Yes, I heard the shots. 

Q. How many were there? 

A. Two shots first, and then one. So I heard him moaning. 

Q. Where was your brother-in-law? 

A. Just in the corner outside the door. 

Q. Outside the door or outside the house? 

A. Outside the door of his bedroom. 

Q. Still in the house? 

A. Still in the house. Yes. My conclusion was that when he 
came out they shot him immediately. The people around the com- 
munity were taking up the cry, and women were yelling. This 
woman I mentioned came out to shout for assistance and calling for 
a priest, and a big man with a blackened face shoved a revolver in 
her face and said, "Get out of this." My brother upstairs thought 
he was to be arrested, and he was dressing too, and came down the 
stairs with a candle in his hand; and when he heard the shots he 
put out the candle and fell back on the stairs. If it had not been 
for that, I am sure that they would have shot him too. 

At that time my sister, Mrs. MacCurtain, was hysterical, and the 
poor children were crying; and my brother was trying to control 
them, and keep them from going down ; because when Mrs. Mac- 
Curtain shouted for help from the window, they had fired at her. 
You can see the bullet marks yet over the window. And if my 
brother had stuck his head outside the window to get help, he would 
surely have been shot too. So my brother came downstairs and 
said, "Tom, my boy, you are only wounded. You are only wounded. 
It will be all right." Little Maura was terrified, and the baby was 
crying. So I took the little baby and was sitting at the end of the 
staircase, and my sister put her hand under his head, and made the 
sign of the cross on him, and I ran for the crucifix. And my brother 
ran into the bedroom, because there was a sound of breaking glass. 
— there was another shot fired at the window, breaking a pane of 
glass. Then he came back and said, "My God, he is done, he is 
done." And then he said, "But Tom, you are dying for Ireland." 
My sister came up and saw him, and ran down and telephoned to 
the exchange to send a priest at once. They asked if she wanted a 
doctor, and she said yes, but to send the priest at once. Dr. O'Con- 
nor, who lives near, came over, but there was little he could do. 
When my sister saw that he was dying, she said, "Jesus, Jesus, take 
him. Have mercy on us." And then the priest came. However, 
he died after a quarter of an hour. So an hour after the shots rang 
out we laid him on the bed. 



636 

STRICKEN FAMILY SUBJECTED TO SECOND RAID 

And we had just said the Rosary when there was a stamping down 
in the room. And my sister said, "Who is there?" and they said, 
"The military. Open." And she opened the door, and they rushed 
in and they came upstairs and rushed over to the bed; and I had 
the crucifix -in my hands, and I said, "Have you come to murder 
anybody else? May the Lord stay your hands." Then they began 
to search everything; they pulled out drawers and searched every 
part of the house thoroughly, and then went away, giving no excuse 
whatever. I believe that the following day a question arose in Par- 
liament about it. The Chief Secretary, I believe, is reported to have 
said that they went to search for arms. And almost simultaneously 
the General at the Cork barracks said they went to arrest the mur- 
derers. But if they had gone to look for the murderers, they would 
not have searched the drawers. I really think it was a made-up 
plan by the police to use the military to cover up the murder. 

Q. You might describe that neighborhood. It was in Black- 
pool? 

A. Yes, it was in Blackpool. 

Q. There are a number of houses around? 

A. Yes, there are quite a number of houses around; and behind 
it there is a large street leading up to the back of the military bar- 
racks. 

Q. How far are you from the barracks? 

A. It would be about a mile leading up to the barracks. 

Q. Is it a place generally patrolled? 

A. Well, the police generally patrolled our place since Easter 
Week. They made it a constant practice to walk up and down out- 
side of the house to intimidate customers. 

POLICE ALLEGED TO HAVE MURDERED COMRADE 
WHO REFUSED TO KILL LORD MAYOR 

Q. Now, go back a bit. Had there been any violence to the 
police, any police or military killed previous to this date? 
A. No, not one. Not one. 



What was the date of the killing of your brother-in-law? 

My brother-in-law? 

Yes. 

It was the 20th of March. 

Commissioner Addams: 1920? 

Yes, 1920. I think there was a police killed that night. 

Prior to that date there had not been any policemen shot 
there? 

Q. Senator Walsh: Who was the policeman shot that night? 
What was his name? 



V 



637 

A. I believe it was Constable Murtagh, I believe. 

Q. When was he shot? 

A. About a half mile from our house. 

Q. But the same night? 

A. The same night, yes. 

Q. At what time? 

A. About 11 o'clock, I think. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: In what direction from where you lived? 

A. Toward the center of town from where we live. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was there anything especially objectionable 
about the conduct of this policeman that made him objectionable to 
the population? 

A. No. We have to go by rumors; and there was a rumor that 
he had been ordered to murder the Lord Mayor, and he refused to 
do it, and that he had been shot by his own. 

Q. So the rumor was that this policeman who was murdered 
that night had been ordered to shoot Mayor MacCurtain, and had 
refused to do so, and was shot by his fellow officers to give them an 
excuse for the murder of the Lord Mayor? 

A. Yes, that was it. 

Q. Was this officer supposed to be friendly to the Sinn Fein 
organization? 

A. I do not know about that. 

Q. Had that matter been investigated by the Sinn Fein leaders? 

A. I do not know. 

Q. Did the British authorities investigate the murder of that 
policeman? 

A. I believe they did. But you see, we had so much trouble in 
our family at that time that I did not pay any attention to these 
outside matters. My whole time was spent in trying to take care of 
our own household. 

Senator Walsh: It would be very valuable if a connection could 
be made between the British authorities shooting that policeman 
and pretending it was done by the leaders of the Republican move- 
ment. 

The Witness: I have no direct evidence at all of that. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: That was only rumor. 

A. Yes, it was the rumor. 

POLICE CREATE ONLY LAWLESSNESS IN CORK 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What sort of community was that before 
these raids began? Was it a peaceful community? 

A. Well, we never heard of any crimes at all there. As a mat- 
ter of fact, if there had been any murder in Ireland, we did not 
hear of it. We never heard of a murder in our city for years be^ 



638 

fore that. If there were, the papers would have been kept from us 
because it was too terrible to see. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Had there been any disorders or killings 
of police prior to the night that the Lord Mayor was killed? 

A. 0, yes, there was one matter that occurs to me. On the night 
of the tenth of March there was a Sinn Fein Club broken into. A 
widow with seven children, Mrs. Honan, was in charge of that, and 
she testified that it was policemen in uniform who did that. And 
they held a revolver to the head of her little boy, ten years old, and 
said if they found any more Sinn Feiners coming around there, he 
would be shot. And the same night they went to the Sinn Fein 
headquarters in the Grand Parade, one of the principal streets of 
Cork, and they destroyed everything there that night, and they fired 
shots all over the city. The same night a short time after that they 
went to a prominent Republican leader's house, Alderman John 
O'Sullivan, and they brought out his son, and when they got him 
out they said, "That is the young man. That is not he." They were 
dressed in uniform, too. So evidently if John O'Sullivan had been 
at home, he would have met the same fate as my brother-in-law. 
My brother-in-law mentioned at one of the corporation meetings 
that if the policemen did not keep law and order, they would see 
that their men did so; that it would not do for armed men to be 
coming in at all hours of the day and night and terrifying women 
and children. 

Q. So he made this open speech in the council, did he? 

A. Yes, he did. 

Q. Major Newman: What did he say? 

A. He said that it was disgraceful conduct for these men who 
were supposed to be keeping law and order in the city to be going 
around terrifying women and children, and- that if they could not 
keep order, his men would. Some said that that got him into 
trouble. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now, to make the information perfectly 
clear, the information that Senator Walsh desired, except the dis- 
orders on this evening, had there been any disorders or conflict be- 
tween the people and the police, or between the inhabitants of Black- 
pool? 

A. 0, no. None whatever. 

Q. Senator Walsh : In other words, you do not know of any 
alleged attack being made by Volunteers of the Republican Army 
upon police officers except what you have named up to the time of 
the killing of your brother? 

A. No, none that I ever heard of. 



639 

EVIDENCE IMPLICATING POLICE IN MURDER OF 
LORD MAYOR 

Q. Major Newman: The men who came to your house with 
their faces blackened, were they military or police or Black-and- 
Tans? 

A. Well, we do not know anything about that, but they spoke 
like members of the R. I. C. They had a most peculiar accent. We 
call it the Depot accent. And another thing that struck us when 
we came to our senses was that they were so familiar with the place. 
They had no difficulty in getting upstairs to the door of his room; 
and there is a most intricate staircase leading up to that door. As a 
matter of fact, anybody who came in from the store could not see 
that staircase, — it is to the side. And they knew where it was, and 
came right up and went to his door. And then at the inquest it was 
brought out that a lamplighter saw them going into the King Street 
police barracks, and the time that they went into there would just 
about have given them time to get there after committing the mur- 
der. 

Q. Was there any man who seemed to be in command of the 
group? 

A. Well, there was one man who seemed to be in command. 
But there were groups of fifteen to twenty or thirty everywhere 
around about Blackpool that night, so probably the whole R. I. C. 
was out. There was one old man coming out of his place shortly 
before the shooting at our house, and he was caught by two men 
with police rifles and thrown on the ground and trampled on and 
injured, and told not to stir. And then there were two men who 
were going up the street near the house, and they were stopped and 
turned around and told not to go that way by a body of men in long 
rain coats. That was shortly after one o'clock, just before the shoot- 
ing at our house. 

Senator Walsh: Major, while you were not here at the time, the 
record already contains elaborate information about the details of 
the inquest and how men were stopped on the streets going up to 
the house. 1 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: I am told that there was a policeman's but- 
ton found at the house. Please tell about that. 

A. Yes, my brother saw a button picked up by the door, and he 
said, "What is that?" And they said, "It is a button." And he said, 
"Give me that button." And it was a policeman's button. And then 
the bullet that lodged in the body, and another that went into the 
wall were both found to be police bullets. 



1 Testimony of Miss Mary MacSwiney, p. 343. 



640 

JEWS, PROTESTANTS, AND CATHOLICS UNITE IN 

TRIBUTE TO LORD MAYOR 
f 

Q. Now, it is said that the religious question projects into this 

matter. How were you and the MacCurtain family among your 
neighbors in Cork on the matter of religious differences? 

A. There is never a difference of that kind in Cork, or in the 
Irish Republic up to this time. As a matter of fact, some of the 
leaders of the Republic and of the Republican Army are Protes- 
tants. 

Q. I understand that all classes joined in the funeral of your 
brother. 

A. Yes. 

Q. And the Protestant Bishop in Cork? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And the Jewish population was represented, led by the 
Rabbi? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Senator Walsh : Did these bodies march the whole way to 
the cemetery? 

A. Yes, they did, — the Protestant bishop and the Jewish rabbi 
followed by their people. 

Q. Major Newman: The Protestant bishop of the Church of 
Ireland? 

A. Yes, he is a Protestant, Bishop Dowse. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Was he a bishop of the Church of England? 

A. Well, I am not up on church matters in those churches. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: All the others were represented, — Meth- 
odists, Baptists, and all the other bodies were represented at the 
funeral ? 

A. Yes, they were. 

Commissioner Thomas: As to Mr. Howe's question, I believe that 
the Church of Ireland is sometimes called incorrectly the Church of 
England. They are on a different basis as regards support, but both 
churches are Episcopal. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: I believe you have testimony concerning 
the inquest? 

Commissioner Addams: Yes, we have that already in the record. 

(To the Witness) : You attended the inquest? 

A. Yes, I did. And I have with me the report of the evidence 
given at the inquest, and the verdict of the coroner's jury. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Have you a printed copy? 

A. Yes, it is produced in this edition of the Evening Echo of 
Cork, Saturday, April 17, 1920. 

Q. Does that contain a full account of the testimony at the 
inquest? 



641 

A. It contains a summary of the evidence by the Crown Solicitor 
and by our solicitor, Mr. Lynch, and the verdict of the jury. 1 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Is there anything you want to add to that 
account? 

A. No, there is nothing I know of. 

SINN FEIN "EXTREMISTS" A PURE FABRICATION 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Perhaps Mr. Walsh is going to bring 
this out in the evidence, but there was some rumor that Mr. Lloyd 
George or some cabinet member declared that the murder might 
have been committed by some extremists of the Sinn Fein faction. 
Can you give us anything on this subject? 2 

A. Well, there is no such thing as extremists in the Irish Re- 
publican movement. We are all Republicans. There are no ex- 
tremists in it. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: But Lloyd George said, did he not, 
that in order to make a sensation some extremists had committed 
the murder? 

A. Oh, no; not at all. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: That, in your judgment, was a pure 
fabrication? 

A. Yes, undoubtedly. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: There was an intimation that your brother- 
in-law had in some way incurred the displeasure of the Republican 
Volunteers, and that there had been a meeting held, and something 
like that. Was there any truth in that at all? 

A. Oh, no; none at all. 

UNIVERSAL AFFECTION FOR LORD MAYOR 

Q. How was your brother-in-law regarded? 

A. Oh, they adored him. People who differed from him politi- 
cally adored him too. Even the ex-soldiers who were represented 
on the City Council asked us if at the funeral we would allow them 
to play their band. And there was an Alderman Beamish, a Union- 
ist, who broke down and cried when the corporation passed its 
resolutions of sympathy. The Unionists loved him too. This Eve- 
ning Echo always praised the way he handled the city's business. 

Q. What is the politics of this Evening Echo? 

A. They are what is called Mollies. They are followers of the 
late Mr. Redmond. 



1 The full verdict is given on p. 362. 

2 This insinuation was made by General French, Lord Lieutenant of Ire- 
land. See pp. 343, 659-660, and Report of Commission, pp. 37-39. 



642 

HIS PERSONAL CHARACTERISTICS 

Q. Just describe what kind of a man the late Lord Mayor was. 

A. Well, he was very quiet and very gracious to everybody. In 
the twelve years that he was married to my sister he seemed to get 
along well with all classes and everybody. 

Q. Was he, or was he not, a man with a kindly disposition? 

A. Yes, very, very kindly. 

Q. Was he anything of a literary man? 

A. Well, he was never looked upon as a literary man, but he 
wrote some beautiful verses; and a great Irish literary scholar said 
that there was the most beautiful Irish in those verses that he had 
ever read. But he could not follow that career, having married at 
twenty, and a family to take care of. He had uphill work all of 
the time. 

Q. He was a very energetic man? 

A. Yes, he was very energetic. 

Q. And a man who loved his family? 

A. Yes, indeed, he loved his family. As a matter of fact, the 
night before, he was sitting with his children, and he had one baby 
at one side pulling down on him and loving him, and another one 
pulling down on the other side and loving him,- and when Mrs. 
MacCurtain called him to his supper, he said, "I'm having such a 
good time I don't want to leave." He promised them a party when 
he could give time to it; but he was always on the run and could 
not. And they said when he got to be Lord Mayor that he must give 
them a big party. He was always like a child with them. He would 
get his violin and play for them and amuse them. And we always 
said if the city could only see the Lord Mayor and how he amused 
his children, everybody would laugh. 

Q. Was he a young-looking man? 

A. Yes, he looked like a boy. 

ELECTED BY TREMENDOUS MAJORITY 

Q. How long was he Lord Mayor? 

A. It was just three months from his election to the time of his 
death. He was elected by something like five to ohe — one of the 
biggest majorities ever given in the city. 

Q. And the women voted? 

A. Yes, they did. They were enthusiastic. I think they helped 
to put him in. 

Q. Was that the first time that the women voted in the city? 

A. Yes, that was the first time. • 

Q. What part did the women take in the campaign? 

A. This Cumann na m'Ban Society that I spoke of was very 
active. During election time they prepared meals for the men. Of 
course, a certain number of men came in from the country, and we 



643 

prepared meals for them and took them around. And other men 
could not leave the polling place; and we prepared meals for them 
and took them to them. 

Q. Were there a number of working men? 

A. Yes, a number of them were, and they could not get off at 
that time. But the ex-soldiers in the city were supplied by the 
British Government with plenty of beer. 

Q. Did the ex-soldiers represent the British Government? 

A. Yes, the British Government tried to use the ex-soldiers. 

Q. Did those women do any work with them? 

A. Yes, I think the women were chiefly responsible for what 
was clone among them. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now, unless there are questions as to what took 
place up to the killing of her brother-in-law, I would like to go to 
something else. 

Commissioner Addams: No, there is nothing else. 

LORD MAYOR'S OFFICE SACKED AND BURNED 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Did your brother-in-law take offices down 
town after his election as Lord Mayor? 

A. Yes, he took offices in the Grand Parade. 

Q. Is that one of the best streets? 

A. Yes; it is chiefly solicitors, lawyers, and business men. 

Q. Are there store buildings in the Grand Parade? 

A. Not very many. 

Q. The lawyers have offices in dwelling houses, do they not? 

A. In dwelling houses, yes. 

Q. Describe his life there. 

A. He took offices there. And the place was raided; and about 
a month before my leaving, the whole place was set on fire. 

Q. Describe how they did that. 

A. They told the woman upstairs that they would give her five 
minutes to get out; and she did. And they poured petrol on it and 
set fire to it, and everything was destroyed. There was some very 
valuable furniture downstairs. 

Q. Did you leave before the big fire in Cork? 

A. Well, that evening I left for Cove. 

Q. Was your home burned? 

A. Well, we do not know whether we are homeless or not. That 
is one thing we want to know — whether our home was among the 
places destroyed. 

Q. Was it in your locality? 

A. Well, I don't know. We just got word from some passengers 
that a number of private houses and business houses had been 
destroyed. 



644 

CONTINUED RAIDS, VANDALISM, THEFT, AND 
ATTEMPTED MURDER 

Q. Were there any further raids on your Blackpool home? 

A. Oh, yes, several times. Mrs. MacCurtain had taken a place 
in a quieter locality, and she heard the very next morning that her 
place in Blackpool had been broken into after it had been sealed. 
One of the windows was broken in, and the neighbors said that men 
in kilts, the Scotch soldiers, had broken into it, and shouted upstairs 
for us to come down. No one was there. I was in London at that 
time. Mrs. MacCurtain went down to see about it. The locks were 
all broken off; they had made a thorough search of the house, and 
had gone through the trunks. A photograph of Lord Mayor Mac- 
Swiney and a picture of the signing of the proclamation of the Irish 
Republic in 1916 were both torn and broken. The boy in the office 
had left two pence and two farthings and some stamps in the shop 
drawer, and they were taken. And my niece's mandolin was taken. 
Mrs. MacCurtain went upstairs, and she was only there a short time 
when she came down and went into the garden, when a bullet 
whizzed past her head. 1 And she could not live there. She asked 
me to take over the business because of reverence for my brother- 
in-law and the place where he died. I did so. And one night some 
small men dressed in mufti, evidently officers, came; and one of the 
men rushed past me and pointed a revolver in my face, and asked 
me who were living there and what I was doing there. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: This was in Blackpool? 

A. Yes. They rushed past me and went into the house and 
pulled open drawers; and I heard one of the men say to the officer, 
"He is not here." I thought they were looking for my brother, 
because he received a letter saying that he was a dead man. Going 
out of the side door up into the factory, there was a little boy em- 
ployed in the factory, and he came on down to shut the door. And 
they said, "Hands up!" and searched him, and said, "Lead the way." 
And they went back into the factory. And the man said to me, 
"Who is running this place?" And I said, "I am, the past month 
or so." And he said, "Do you keep any men here?" And I said, 
"No." And I said, "Might I ask you whom you are looking for?" 
And he said, "A friend." And I said, "It is a queer way of looking 
for a friend with a revolver." And he said, "Oh, no; we don't take 
life. We did not start it." And then they went outside the door. 
There was a lorry there with soldiers. 



1 This attempt on the life of Mrs. MacCurtain occurred immediately 
after the Commission had cabled her an invitation to come and testify 
before it. The Commission brought the incident to the attention of 
the Britsh Ambassador in Washington, who had promised that his 
government would take no steps against witnesses. 



645 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: You might describe the occurrences fol- 
lowing your brother-in-law's death. 

A. Oh, it is so hard. There are so many. One can not remem- 
ber them all. 

POLICE PERSECUTE WITNESSES AT INQUEST 

Q. I will ask you this: Has there been any punishment of wit- 
nesses who gave evidence at the inquest? 

A. Oh, yes. Dr. O'Connor got a letter threatening his life. He 
has had to go on the run. His beautiful home is broken up. Other 
witnesses were also intimidated. There was a little boy outside the 
door one night who was very badly beaten, and had to be treated 
in the North Infirmary. He was employed in summoning witnesses. 
We thought at first it was my brother. The men who beat him and 
held him up were of the same height as the policemen, — because 
previously a policeman had to have a certain height. And these 
men who beat up the little boy were very big men, and dressed 
in mufti. 

Q. You say that the policemen have a very peculiar accent, and 
people can tell them? 

A. Yes, people can tell them, can tell them immediately. It is 
the Depot accent. 

Q. Dr. O'Connor at the inquest not only testified to the nature 
of your brother's wounds, but also testified to the character of the 
bullets found in his body and in the wall? 

A. Yes, that is quite true. 

ARRESTED FOR RELIEF WORK 

Q. Have you ever been arrested yourself, Miss Walsh? 

A. Yes; you see in the Cumann na in Ban Society; which is out 
to help the Irish Republican Army, — because many of the boys have 
widowed mothers and people dependent upon them, so we used to 
collect from time to time things for them, carrying boxes and stand- 
ing outside the church door. And we were able to help in this way. 
However, on this particular morning, — it was early in November 
and the "flu" was raging in Cork, and I volunteered to collect at 
early mass with another girl. And two men approached us and 
said, "Have you a permit?" And we said, "No. We are Irish 
Republicans and do not need any authority." And they demanded 
our names, and we refused to give them. We said citizens of the 
Irish Republic did not have to give their names without authority. 
And they grabbed me and said, "Come along." And they took me 
down to the Bridewell. 

Q. What is the Bridewell? 

A. It is the place where they take people before they are tried. 
And one of the men there came to me and the other young girl and 



646 

said, "What is your name?" And we said, "We are citizens of the 
Irish Republic and do not have to give you our names." And he 
said, "The Germans are beaten now. They are not at your backs." 
And I said, "You did not beat them." And he said to the men, 
"Throw them into Number Four, and they will soon get tired and 
give their names." Number Four was a very filthy place, — dirt and 
old papers and scraps and safety pins and things like that. We 
were kept there for three or four hours, and policemen would come 
in every little while and ask us our names and addresses; and we 
would not give them. And then a policeman called me out and 
said, "I want your name and address." And I said, "I will not give 
it." And he said, "Go back in there then." And I went back. And 
again they said, "Come out." And I would not tell them my name. 
And then he called me out again and said, "Miss Susie Walsh, we 
know you." And they let me go and gave me a summons to appear 
in court. And of course, as a citizen of the Irish Republic, neither 
of us recognized the court. Four of the magistrates were in favor 
of dismissing the case, and four were not. And then we were sent 
another summons, and would not recognize them. One of the 
magistrates would not agree to a dismissal of the case, so it was 
sent up to Dublin, and came back, and we were fined sixpence. And 
of course we would not pay. And so it was taken out of the box. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh : Taken out of the charity box in which you 
were .collecting funds? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did they keep the boxes? 

A. Yes, in the magistrates' court. 

Q. Major Newman: When was that? 

A. About two years ago. 

SUFFERING GREATER THAN IRISH SOCIETY 
CAN RELIEVE 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Do the Cumann na rnBan still solicit 
relief in Cork? 

A. Yes, they are, in every way. 

Q. Do they do it openly? 

A. No, there is a sub rosa system. It has to be sub rosa in 
almost every case. 

Q. Are you able to do much now? 

A. Oh, indeed we are. 

Q. How do you do it? „ 

A. We do it in this way. We deprive ourselves of little things 
like a hat or a dress; and women who do not ordinarily work, go 
out and work and give the money. Even working girls deprive 
themselves of many things. And we are able to do a lot for those 
who need help. 



647 

Q. Are you able to do anything like ought to be done for the 
people of Cork who need help? 

A. Oh, dear, no! Dear, no! 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Then your object is to give relief like the 
Red Cross? 

A. Yes, we give relief like that too. The Cumann na m'Ban 
members took lessons in first aid, of course. But we have never 
been called upon to give much aid in this way. 

Q. But you also give assistance to families, — give them food 
and the like? 

A. Yes, we do. 

Q. Cumann na m'Ban is simply a society of women? 

A. Yes, Cumann means society. It is the women's society. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Do you give help to anybody besides 
the Irish Republican Army? 

A. Well, you see, that is about all we can do. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Before you left, was there much distress 
in Cork? 

A. Yes, even before we left and this last burning took place, 
there were a lot of houses destroyed, largely because of the men 
who were in the organization; and those were the houses they de- 
stroyed first. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Before this big fire? 

A. Before this big fire. 

Q. They were business houses? 

A. Yes, big business houses. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Were you able to take care of all the needs; 
or was there real suffering? 

A. Oh, there is a great amount of suffering, — a great amount of 
suffering. 

TWENTY TIMES FACED FIREARMS IN RAIDS 
ON HOME 

Q. Senator Walsh: Can you state accurately about how many 
times in your home you have been confronted with armed soldiers 
or police? 

A. About twenty times. And the raids were generally carried 
out by policemen. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Did they present firearms at your body? 

A. Oh, yes, firearms. Firearms, indeed! 

LIFE "ON THE RUN" 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: These young men who are on the 
run, — your brother is one of them, — what do they do to take care 
of themselves? They are not engaged in any particular work, are 
they? 



648 

A. No, of course many of them cannot work, because they would 
be shot in broad daylight. 

Q. They simply keep moving around? 

A. They keep moving around, yes. And sometimes they cannot 
lay their heads on a pillow for a week in succession. 

Q. They are continually on the run? 

A. Continually on the run, yes. 

ORGANIZATION AND OPERATION OF THE 
REPUBLICAN ARMY 

Q. Major Newman: Miss Walsh, you spoke of the Irish Re- 
publican Army. Can you describe that, and how it operates? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: Yes, I was just going to ask that you might 
describe how the Republican Army originated and how it grew. 

A. Yes, I think it was after the arms had been imported into 
Belfast by Sir Edward Carson that our men thought that if one 
section of Ireland could arm themselves, our men could be armed 
too. So that was the start of the Volunteers. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: At the time of the passing of the Home 
Rule Bill, Sir Edward Carson brought in arms from Germany and 
armed the north of Ireland in defiance of the British Government? 

A. Yes, in defiance of the British Government. 

Q. Just go ahead and describe how you got armed. 

A. Well, we got arms after that. From 1916 on they have 
arrested all men in the south of Ireland found with arms, and give 
them from two to four years' imprisonment simply because they 
were found with a revolver. 1 And yet, on the other hand, these 
men who come into your homes and shoot you, you are not even 
allowed a revolver to protect your family from them. 

Q. Major Newman: What I am getting at is how the Irish Army 
is now organized and controlled? 

A. Well, I do not really know. 

Q. Senator Walsh: It is a secret army. It does not work in the 
open, does it? It cannot appear in public or it will be shot down. 

A. Yes, I think so. 

Q. It is a private agreement between different men that they will 
stand together in upholding the Republic? 

A. Yes, that is quite it. 

Q. And who the officials are is only known by the officers of the 
Republic? 

A. Quite so. 

Senator Walsh: That is what you wanted to know, Major, is 
it not? 



1 Under the recent martial-law proclamation, the death penalty may be 
imposed for possession of arms or ammunition. 



649 

Major Newman: Yes, I do not understand it. I thought it would 
be pertinent and interesting to know just what the Republican Army 
is and how it is organized. 

Senator Walsh: It is an organization of civilian men, a citizens' 
army. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: See if I can bring it out. They have a 
Volunteer Army for the express purpose of being an army of de- 
fense for Ireland, as they call it? 

A. Yes, that is it. 

Q. And in the Irish Republican Government they have a minis- 
try of war just like any other government? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And prior to this oppression by the addition of many sol- 
diers and the Black-and-Tans, these men had uniforms and they 
drilled in large bodies throughout Ireland publicly? 

A. Yes, that is quite so. 

Q. They had their own commandants and a regular staff? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And it was the Volunteer Army, in conjunction with the 
Citizens' Army, which was largely composed of labor men led by 
James Connolly, — the army organized by James Larkin, now in Sing 
Sing prison in this country, — they were the men who fought in the 
uprising of 1916? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And after 1916 the army was largely augmented, and they 
brought in recruits all over Ireland, and the general knowledge was 
that in the spring of 1916 they had regular soldiers in the Volunteer 
Army numbering about one hundred thousand? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And they had regular recruiting officers, and they had an 
organization of Boy Scouts, and everything of that sort? 

A. Yes, yes. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did they have any arms? 

A. Oh, they had arms then. 

Q. Senator Walsh: If we went over to Ireland and traveled 
throughout Ireland, could you see any member of this army? 

A. Oh, yes, you could. 

Q. How? 

A. By asking, you could see them. 

Q. Are they not obliged to keep on the run? How could we see 
them? 

A. Oh, if an American asked to see them, he could do so. 

Q. Do they wear a uniform? 

A. Oh, no. Civilian clothes. 

Q. If they appear in uniform, they are liable to be shot? 



650 

A. Yes, or get from three to five years' imprisonment.' 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Did they appear at the funeral of your 
brother-in-law? 

A. Yes, a detachment of them did. 

Q. And did they send a telegram to London at the time of the 
death of Lord Mayor MacSwiney? 

A. Yes, they did. 

Q. The only difference now is that they do not wear the uniform 
and have to drill in secret? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And your general information is that they arc still operating 
as an army, but they cannot do it as they did before they were over- 
whelmed by a great force from England? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Major Newman: About how many of them are there now? 

A. Well, I cannot say now because so many of them have been 
destroyed. One night we heard a great explosion when I was teach- 
ing in the Gaelic school; and the head teacher told us to close the 
school and go home. When I went home I saw two great pools of 
blood. A Black-and-Tan threw a bomb into a group of Volunteers 
and sixteen of them were killed or wounded. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What was this date, — the year and month? 

A. About a month ago. Two days after there was another ex- 
plosion in Blackpool, and five Volunteers were killed. If they can- 
not get them at night, they will throw a bomb at them at any time 
and kill them that way. 

Q. Major Newman: Prior to the uprising, Miss Walsh, there 
were about one hundred thousand? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Have they increased since then? 

A. I think so. 

Q. Have they any arms? 

A. I cannot say, because since Mr. MacCurtain was murdered 
and my brother is on the run, I do not get much more information. 
I cannot really tell you. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: But they are seizing police barracks all 
over Ireland, and getting arms and ammunition that way, are they 
not? 

A. Yes, they have. 

Q. But the arms they got at the lime of the massacre of Bach- 
elors' Walk,- and what they have taken away from the army of occu- 
pation are about all the arms they have? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Chairman Howe: When they drilled in the open, did they 
carry arms? 



1 The death penalty may now be imposed. 
-See pp. 145, 206-207. 



651 

A. I think so sometimes, but not often. I have seen them, but 
not generally. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: When were they drilling all over 
Ireland? 

A. After Sir Edward Carson imported arms from Germany to 
arm the Ulster Volunteers in the North. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I would say about the spring of 1919 they 
were drilling all over Ireland. When the President of the Irish 
Republic went from place to place, he saw them drilling then. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Were they equipped with uniforms at that 
lime? 

A. Yes, some of them. There were regiments that had uniforms 
then, did they not, Miss Walsh? 

Miss Walsh: Yes, they did. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: We have been told that order was 
restored at the time of the Derry riots by the Irish Volunteer forces, 
thereby checking those riots from spreading to Belfast. Do you 
know whether those men wore uniforms and acted openly, or 
whether they acted secretly? 

A. I could not really tell you anything about it. 

CONTINUOUS SHOOTINGS AND MURDERS IN CORK 

Q. Do you know whether it is possible to give any statistics, any 
accurate statement as to the number of shootings and murders in 
the city of Cork? Especially since the time of the murder of your 
brother-in-law? 

A. Well, I believe that since that time they are under the im- 
pression that we should come out so they could murder more of us. 
One Englishman said: "It is surprising that these Irish do not come 
out, because we would have a real chance at them then." I think 
they were really surprised. 

Q. Were these raids that occurred in Cork after the death of 
your brother-in-law nightly? 

A. Yes, they were nightly. 

Q. Then it is almost impossible to give an exact statement, be- 
cause the raids are so continuous? 

A. Exactly. 

Q. Senator Walsh: To what extent has the Sinn Fein cause 
grown in the City of Cork? 

A. Well, they were nearly all Sinn Feiners when my brother-in- 
law was Lord Mayor. He seemed to make a good many conversions 
from the lenient way he treated other people,— he made them be- 
lievers in our side. 

Q. Have these raids tended to increase the number of believers 
in the Republic? 



652 

A. Well, I think a great many women have been intimidated. 
As a matter of fact, I believe several have been shifted to the lunatic 
asylum. 

PEOPLE WILL FIGHT UNTIL DEATH FOR 
INDEPENDENCE 

Q. I am trying to find out whether these raids have made the 
people more spirited? 

A. Well, I should say that it has made them more spirited and 
thrown them over to our side. 

Q. Then up to the time you left Ireland there had been no ap- 
parent break in the ranks of the Republic? 

A. None whatever. They are only more determined to continue 
the fight to death. 

AMERICAN SAILORS ADMIRED BY PEOPLE OF 

CORK 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Miss Walsh, there is one matter I forgot 
to ask you about. I believe you stated that you were present in 
Cork from the beginning of the war down to the time you sailed the 
other day? 

A. Yes, Mr. Walsh. 

Q. Now, there has been something said from time to time about 
the alleged friction between the population of Cork and our Ameri- 
can sailors. I wish you would briefly sketch what the attitude of 
the population was toward our sailors, and what the friction was. 

A. Well, as far as I can remember, there was no friction be- 
tween the population of Cork and the American sailors. On the 
other hand, I think it was principally between the British sailors 
and the American sailors. Owing to the fact that the American 
sailors had so much money to disburse and the British sailors did 
not, they were at a disadvantage. The Cork people certainly ad- 
mired the American sailors. But one or two of them unfortunately 
got out of hand, which might happen in any army. The same thing 
happened with British sailors. So I think that the Vigilance Com- 
mittee was formed, not on account of the American sailors, but to 
put down any riots. 

Q. There was a large number of American sailors in Cork? 

A. 0, yes. 

Q. You were acquainted with the attitude of the people of Cork 
toward the American sailors? 

A. 0, yes. They simply loved the American sailors. With the 
exception of the few whom I mentioned, they all behaved admirably. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: And there was a Vigilance Committee 
of the citizens of Cork formed? 



653 

A. Yes. Some of those — one or two of those sailors, not par- 
ticularly American sailors, behaved in an ungentlemanly manner. 

Q. This was formed by the Sinn Fein Government? 

A. By the citizens of the city themselves. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: This was just sort of a voluntary organi- 
zation of the citizens to prevent any possible trouble. But other 
than these one or two sailors who were disorderly, there was no 
friction between the American sailors and the people of Cork? 

A. I can solemnly swear that the American sailors were simply 
adored by the people of Cork, and behaved very, very well with the 
exception of one or two who misbehaved, such as one might find 
anywhere. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



TESTIMONY OF MISS ANNA WALSH 

Commissioner Wood in the Chair. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Would you please give us your name? 

A. Anna Walsh. 

Q. And you live in Cork? A. I was born in Cork. 

Q. Will you state what your business has been? A. I work 
for the Sorosis Shoe Company in Cork. I worked my way up from 
a junior assistant to the head of my department. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: It is a Boston firm incorporated under the 
name of the Sorosis Shoe Company in Cork? A. Yes. 

Q. And you are head of your department? A. Yes. 

Q. Now, prior to the trouble in Cork in 1916 what did you do? 
A. I lived in 1916 on South Douglas Road with my mother and 
sisters. 

Q. How many sisters? A. Four. 

Q. Did you have any brothers? A. Yes, my brother James, 
who has been on the run. And my other brother died at the time 
of the uprising in 1916. 

BLACK-AND-TANS HORSEWHIP AND ROB PEOPLE 
ON STREETS 

Q. I would ask you first to tell what you know about the horse- 
whipping of people on the streets of Cork. A. About three weeks 
before I came here, the people rushed from Patrick Street one day 
into the store. Just about an hour before that I looked out and the 
Black-and-Tans had revolvers in their hands and were frightening 
the people. But about an hour after the people — women and chil- 
dren — ran screaming into the store, and I heard the crack of whips 
outside. The Black-and-Tans had taken whips away from the cab 
drivers and were flogging the people on the streets, and were hold- 
ing them up and taking money from them. 



654 

Q. Commissioner Wood: During business hours was this? A. 
Yes, about four in the afternoon. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: About how many Black-and-Tans? A. 
There were two on one corner and two on the other, and they were 
scattering the people in all directions. 

Q. Was that a busy time of the day? A. Yes, very, — the most 
people on the street. 

Q. And people ran into the store? A. Yes. 

Q. About how many? A. Twenty or thirty. 

Q. What did the people say? A. They were screaming "Mur- 
der!" 

Q. Previous to that you had looked out? A. Yes, and I saw 
a Black-and-Tan with a revolver holding up a citizen and searching 
his pockets. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Deliberately robbing the people on 
the streets in daylight? A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: She did not say they robbed them. 
A. The Witness: Yes, they took their money. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Do you know of cases where money was 
taken? A. Yes. From one of the men they took a five-pound note 
from his pocketbook. 

Q. Were the people — the women and children — very fright- 
ened? A. Oh, yes; terribly, terribly. 

Q. Did any of them receive blows? A. They had run in from 
the whips. 

INDISCRIMINATE FIRING ON CROWDED STREETS 

A few days before that I was coming home from lunch about five 
minutes to two, and the people were rushing along, and they said a 
lorry had passed, and the soldiers were firing. 

Q. Could you hear the shots? A. Yes, very plainly. 

Q. Is your business place in the heart of Cork? A. Yes, it is 
on Patrick Street. 

Q. Is it a section devoted largely to retail business? A. Yes, it 
is the retail section. 

Q. It is the retail section of the city of Cork? A. Yes. And 
about a week before I came the people were coming out from 
theaters, and they began firing, and a Mrs. Crowley of Coburg Street 
was shot through the breast. 

Q. Shot through the breast? A. Yes, shot through the breast. 
And a young man was shot dead coming out of church. 

Q. Major Newman: Did Mrs. Crowley die? A. No, the wound 
was not fatal. When they began firing on the people coming out 
of church, the people were afraid to go home, and the priest tele- 
phoned to the barracks to take the people home, because it was near 



655 

ten, the curfew hour, and the people were scared. And lorries came 
and took the people home. 

Q. What is the situation there now? Can you do business as 
ordinarily, or how do you do it? A. Well, the shops close at six, 
and the people get home as soon as possible. The people used to go 
out for an hour or two for a walk, but now it is not safe to do it. 
One evening when the people were out, a lorry came along and 
fired. I saw the shots myself in Evans'. 

Q. What is Evans'? A. A large bookstore. And one lady was 
shot through the ear. It was twenty past seven o'clock. It was not 
curfew hour at all. 

Q. How do women like you go home? A. Well, at night my 
sister and my niece call for me, and we all go home together. 

EFFECT OF TERRORISM ON BUSINESS AND 
INDUSTRY 

Q. What effect has that had on the business of Cork? A. The 
people are afraid to come in. The people from the outlying dis- 
tricts are afraid to come in. 

Q. And you draw most of your trade from the surrounding dis- 
trict? A. Yes. 

Q. Are there surrounding districts where there is business? 
A. Oh, yes; there are mills in Douglas and Blackpool. 

Q. About how many people in Blackpool? A. Well, Blackpool 
is very thickly populated. 

Q. Can you give us an idea of Blackpool? A. It is on the 
north side of the city, and the houses are built close like; it is very 
thickly populated. 

Q. Has it its own retail section like a small town? A. Well, 
the people come into town on the tram to do their trading. The 
people there are mostly pig buyers. 

Q. Cattle buyers and things like that? A. Yes. 

Q. Where is the Ford plant, — the automobile plant? A. Well, 
that is on the marine side, the east side. 

Q. How far from the city of Cork? A. About a quarter mile. 

Q. Is it a large plant? A. Yes, very large. 

Q. How many employees? A. Well, I cannot say exactly, but 
it is a large plant; probably a thousand hands. 

Q. About a thousand people employed there? A. Well, that is 
as far as I can say about that. 

Q. And the working people there largely live in the city ot 
Cork? A. Yes, most of them. 

Q. What effect has this had upon business? A. Before I left 
home I heard that the men at Ford's were putting in only half time. 

Q. How about the other plants? A. Nothing at all. Many of 
them are lying completely idle. 



656 

Q. What is the effect of this on unemployment in Cork? A. It 
is a very serious situation for the winter. The people have nothing 
at all to do. 

Q. It looks like a serious situation for the winter? A. Yes, very. 

WHOLESALE TERRORISM 
Q. Do you know of any other things that happened that your 
sister did not testify to? A. Well, as far back as September I saw 
lorries come down by the postoffice, and I looked up, and almost 
immediately the lorries came up and the soldiers were firing. And 
an ex-soldier said to me, "Those are not blank shots. Run!" Mrs. 
MacCurtain had gone away to Youghal, and my sister, when she 
came back from the station, her umbrella was torn to pieces. The 
soldiers were firing around the station, with the result that she was 
walked over and trampled, and her umbrella was broken. Where 
the people were staying, they were put up for the night. And the 
'phone was going all of the night informing their people that they 
were safe; because it was not safe to pass in the streets. 

HOME REPEATEDLY RAIDED WITHOUT CAUSE 

Q. Now, for how long before March, when your brother-in-law 
was killed, had these raids been going on, — including your own 
house? A. Well, the raids were going on, but they were not so 
bad at that time. But as regards our own house, we were getting 
quite accustomed to raids, — it was nothing new for us. As my sister 
stated, I was in bed ill about four o'clock one morning — 

Q. Were you in a dangerous condition? A. I was in a pneu- 
monic condition, and the doctor would not let me be removed to 
the hospital. My sister was putting a poultice to my chest when 
they broke in, and I was ordered up. 

Q. Were you weak? A. Very weak. And when I got down- 
stairs I saw my mother with three soldiers with fixed bayonets to 
her face. 

Q. How old is your mother? A. Over sixty. 

Q. Were there any men in the house at all? A. No. 

Q. In all these raids on your home, some twenty of them, I be- 
lieve, before your brother-in-law was murdered, did they ever dis- 
cover any arms or anything like that? A. No, none at all. There 
was none at all there. 

Q. And they always searched thoroughly when they came? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Down to this time had there been any constables killed around 
Cork? A. Well, on the tenth of March— 

Q. Prior to that time? A. Well, there may have been a few 
cases, but Cork was very quiet, and nothing had happened. But on 
the tenth of March the police got out of hand, and my brother-in- 



657 

law declared that the situation was serious, and if the police could 
not do their duty — the shops had been shot up — and if they could 
not do their duty, the city would have to protect the citizens them- 
selves. 

MIDNIGHT MURDER OF LORD MAYOR 
MACCURTAIN 

Q. Where were you when the raid occurred for the purpose of 
murdering your brother-in-law, Mayor MacCurtain ? A. I was in 
my bedroom. 

Q. I wish you would give a brief account of that. A. Well, 1 
did not hear the knock at the door, but I heard my sister tapping at 
the door of my brother's room, and she said, "Jimmy, get up. A 
raid! A raid!" I threw on a little red coat that I had for getting 
up, and I heard a voice, "Come out, Curtain!" It surprised me that 
they should get upstairs so quickly. 

Q. This was on the first landing? A. On the first landing, yes. 
And I heard two shots. One of the little ones ran out crying, 
"Da-da, Da-da," and I pushed her in. And I put my head out of 
the back window, and a woman's voice called out to me, "Who has 
been murdered?" And I said, "Mr. MacCurtain; We are all being 
murdered by the police." And I heard my brother-in-law below 
moaning. 

Q. You heard shots? A. Yes, two shots. And then I ran 
downstairs. 

Q. These men had apparently broken into the house? A. Yes. 

Q. Did you hear them hammering before they broke into the 
house? A. No, I did not. I only heard my sister's voice calling, 
"A raid! A raid!" When I got down I put my hand under his 
head, and I held up the crucifix and said, "Thomas, boy, this is a 
crucifix. Indulgence for a happy death. Kiss it." And he kissed it 
repeatedly. And then he said, "My feet are cold." And then he 
said, "I am dying." 

Q. Did he die immediately? A. No. He asked me not to leave 
him, and of course I said I would not. My brother came and put a 
pillow under his head, and he said, "Jim, take the pillow away." 
And then he said, "Anna, put your hand under my head again." 
Thomas and I had worked in the cause together ever since he mar- 
ried my sister. 

Q. How long had he been married to your sister? A. About 
twelve years. I noticed that under my hand on his head it was 
getting quite cold and clammy, and then I saw the end was coming. 
He said again, "Do not take Anna away from me." And Jim said, 
"Come on, Tom, boy. You are only wounded. You will not die." 
And Mrs. MacCurtain came upstairs and said, "Cheer up, Tom. 



658 

You are all right. The priest will soon be here. You are dying 
for Ireland, and die like a soldier." 

Q. Where was your sister? A. She was sitting at the side of 
the stairs holding the baby. The little one did not realize why he 
was lying there, and kept repeating, "Da-da, Da-da." 

Q. Where were the other children? A. There was so much 
screaming all over that I really do not know. I was taking care of 
Thomas, and did not see anything else, and do not know. 

Q. Did you see the men in the house? A. No, they had gone. 

Q. Did you see them go out? A. No, I did not. I went down 
immediately, but they had gone. Then the priest came. And then 
he raised up his eyes and said, "Into Thy hands, Lord, I commend 
my spirit." And then he was dead. 

Q. Did you attend the inquest? A. I was there just one night 
to give my evidence, and after that Mrs. MacCurtain was ordered 
away for a change, and I went into the country. 

BROTHER NARROWLY ESCAPES DEATH 

There was one point I wanted to mention. Some weeks before 
I left home my brother was paying a visit to my mother, and came 
down to my place and said he was nearly done in. And I said, 
"How is that?" • 

Q. Who was that? A. My brother. He said that up in the 
passageway he met Barry, the detective. He did not want to go into 
the house for fear they would follow him in, and he did not want 
any shooting to take place in front of Mrs. MacCurtain. So he saw 
a lady in a neighboring house, and if he was to be murdered, he 
wanted them to see it. Then two of them came up. One of them 
was Barry, the detective. And they said, "What are you doing 
here?" And he said, "Why, Barry, don't you know me?" And ol 
course they did not want to shoot him, because they would be identi- 
fied. And he made it down the avenue, and met my niece, and 
pointed back and said, "Those two detectives are after me." And 
when my niece looked up, she saw the two men looking after him. 
But they did not get him. He took a short cut and got away. 

Q. Your brother is still on the run? A. Yes; he does not dare 
come near the house. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Do you know he is living yet? A. 
Yes, I think so. I saw him a few weeks ago, and he is looking very 
pale and thin. 

Q. How old is he? A. Twenty-five or six. 

YOUNG MEN OF IRELAND LIVE "ON THE RUN" 
Q. Chairman Howe: Where do they sleep, — in the fields? Or 
where do they sleep? A. Well, he told me one night he was sleep- 
ing in a house with another man, and the police came along, and 



659 

they jumped out of the house with almost nothing on, and crept into 
a henhouse. And the two of them lay close together until morning, 
when they went to a farmer and asked him to take them in. They 
made quite a joke of it, because they found a pair of lady's stock- 
ings, and they cut the vamps off, and they looked like boots. 

Q. How common is that sort of thing in Ireland? A. It is quite 
common. Nearly all of the men are running away from the police 
organization. 

Q. You say nearly all the men are on the run away from their 
homes? A. Yes, away from their homes. 

Q. As a matter of fact, it is dangerous for the men to stay in 
homes with friends, is it not? A. Yes. Recently, before I left 
there was a notice in the papers that if there was anybody found 
sheltering Sinn Feiners, they would meet the same fate. 

Q. How are these notices put in the papers? A. The Black- 
and-Tans go into the paper office and hold a revolver to the heads 
of the owners and compel them to print these notices in large type 
on the front page of the paper. 1 

LORD FRENCH REFUSES TO TESTIFY AT INQUEST 

Q. Was your family represented by counsel at the inquest? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Who was he? A. Mr. Lynch. 

Q. Did he have anything to do with the city, or was he just the 
representative of your family? A. No, he was just the representa- 
tive of our family. He was instructed by Mr. Maurice O'Connor. 

Q. And who was Maurice O'Connor? A. He was the repre- 
sentative of the family, and Mr. Lynch had instructions from Mr. 
O'Connor. 

Q. Was there a rumor before the inquest that your brother was 
murdered by some of his colleagues? A. Yes, a rumor came from 
Lord French that he was. 

Q. Was Lord French summoned? A. Yes, he was summoned, 
and refused to come. 

AUTHORITIES TAKE NO ACTION AGAINST 
MURDERERS 

Q. Did your counsel also demand to know where these bullets 
came from, and this police button, — the bullets found in the body 
and in the wall? Is that so? A. Yes. 

Q. In fact, he made a demand that a strict examination be made 
as to the criminals that had killed your brother-in-law? A. Yes, 
that is so. 



1 See testimony of Lord Mayor O'Callaghan. 



660 

Q. Has that examination ever been made? A. No, not to our 
knowledge. They failed to do anything about it. 

Q. Major Newman: Who carried on the inquest? Under whose 
authority was it conducted? A. The inquest was ordered in the 
usual way. Mr. J. Wolfe represented the Crown, and Mr. Lynch 
represented us. 

Q. I do not mean the names of the people. But there was an 
inquest constituted according to law by the regular authorities for 
doing that thing? A. Oh, yes. But of course all inquests are 
stopped now, and the military do that thing. 

Q. Yes, but before that. This was the usual civil procedure? 
A. Yes, yes. 

Q. This rumor that you spoke about, was this published by 
anyone? Do you know anything about the origin of that rumor that 
Mayor MacCurtain had been killed by Sinn Feiners? A. That, I 
believe, came from Lord French. 

Q. In what way? A. That they had information that Mr. 
MacCurtain was a murdered man, — murdered by the extremist party 
of Sinn Fein. 

Q. Was that statement made by Lord French? A. Yes, and 
Lord French was summoned, and refused to come. 

Q. That statement was made in the papers from Lord French? 
A. Yes. It also stated that Professor Stockley was also condemned 
to be murdered with Lord Mayor MacCurtain in a secret meeting. 
But Professor Stockley is not an active Sinn Feiner. He is only a 
Republican. And he denounced that statement as a falsehood. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: What statement was that? A. The state- 
ment that the extremists of Sinn Fein had met in a secret meeting 
and condemned Lord Mayor MacCurtain and Professor Stockley 
to death. 

Q. And Dr. Stockley denounced that as a falsehood? A. Yes. 

LORD MAYOR MACCURTAIN LOVED BY ALL 

Q. As a matter of fact, what was the attitude of the Republicans 
toward your brother-in-law? A. The whole city idolized him. 
They all loved him. 

Q. After his death was your home visited by the people? A. 
Yes, they all thronged there. The first time I ever heard men cry 
was then. One man said, "God, Thomas, I didn't think you would 
be the first." And others said that it seemed impossible that any- 
body would ever shoot such a man as he was. The whole city 
mourned for him. 

Q. He was a general favorite? A. Yes, as they styled him, 
"Stern but gentle friend of all." 

Q. He was a man of very kindly disposition? A. Very kind. 
That is one reason why everybody loved him. 



661 

Q. And they proved that at his funeral, when a band of dis- 
charged soldiers asked permission to walk? A. Yes. All classes 
of people came to walk at his funeral. And the people came in and 
got permission from the retailers to look at the funeral from their 
windows. 

INDOMITABLE SPIRIT OF IRISH PEOPLE 

Q. What effect has this had upon the spirit of the people? Has 
it broken them down? A. No. Quite the contrary. The people 
will never submit to be ruled by England, no matter how many 
soldiers they bring over. When the men are gone, the women will 
step in. And when the women are gone, the children will step in. 
And if they kill all the children, the children still unborn will step 
in, because they have the spirit of the martyrs. 

Q. You mean to say that the treatment of the people has brought 
hundreds of recruits to the Republican cause? A. Yes, and they 
are not slow to express their feeling that they hope the day will 
soon come when the English will be gone out of Ireland, and that 
the day will soon come when we will sweep them forever from 
our soil. 

POLICE CREATE CRIME IN CORK 

Q. Was Cork a place in which there were any murders or major 
crimes like assault to kill before the present system of terror and 
raids began? A. No. Murder and crime are so scarce in Cork 
and Ireland that we would hardly believe it if the story of a murder 
had been printed in a paper. Now when we open the paper the 
heading is: "Two men murdered last night." "Man murdered in 
his house before his wife and children." That is the heading every 
morning now. 

I do not know whether I mentioned about the police coming to a 
rather poor section of the city and shooting three men and two boys. 
The boys were Boy Scouts; one was O'Handly and the other O'Brien. 
And in that house they murdered a brother-in-law of O'Handly for 
the mere fact that he was a brother-in-law. He was not a Sinn 
Feiner. He had been attached to the British Army for twelve years. 
And the brother of the boy, when the police flashed the light on 
his face, said, "Oh, don't shoot me, because I am too young." 

Q. Commissioner Wood: How do you know that that is the 
reason why this man was shot, because he was the brother-in-law 
of this Boy Scout? A. Oh, that is what everyone says. 

Q. Was there anything against him? A. Well, they could have 
had nothing against him, for he was in the British Army for twelve 
years. He was not concerned with politics. He was a man with 
one child. 

Q. Was this in daylight or at night? A. Oh, at night. 



662 

Q. Did'they say who murdered him? A. Yes, they were police- 
men. And another man shot the same night named Coleman — his 
wife testified at the inquest that he was killed by the auxiliary 
police. 

Q. What were the circumstances of the killing of Coleman? 
A. A knock came at the door at night, and his wife said, "Who is 
there?" And a voice said, "The military. Open." And Coleman 
went to the door and was shot immediately. 

Q. But this is not first-hand testimony. This is only hearsay. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh : Yes, but I understood you wanted such evidence 
from parties near to the scene of these crimes. 

Commissioner Wood: Yes, we did. But we ought to get direct 
evidence now. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Now, I will ask you this question: Did you 
talk with the widow? A. No, I did not. 

Q. But you read about it and heard of it from the people? 
A. Yes, and I attended the inquiry. 

Q. Was there an inquest? A. No, just an inquiry. 

Q. Do they seem to have any hesitation about killing these men 
in the presence of their wives? A. Oh, no. It is quite a common 
thing now. 

CONTINUOUS TERRORISM AND BURNINGS IN 

CORK 

Q. I might ask you about what effect this has had upon the 
health of the people of your city. You might begin and tell about 
how it has affected you. A. Well, for the past eight months we 
have had hardly any decent sleep. And the lorries running to and 
fro, and the shots, and the yelling, — one cannot sleep. I heard a 
big explosion one night, and the whole side of Cash's was blown in. 
I saw it in the morning. 

Q. What is that? A. That is a big draper's establishment on 
Patrick Street. Another night I heard a big explosion, and For- 
rest's, another big draper on Patrick Street, was blown up. It was 
in flames still in the morning. Just a day after that the American 
Shoe Company was in flames. 

Q. Major Newman: Were these shops conducted by Sinn Fein- 
ers? A. No, no. Forrest has no sympathy with the Sinn Fein. 
And the American Shoe Company is conducted by an Englishman. 
The idea is to throw the people out of employment. That is the 
idea. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: What do the firemen of the city of 
Cork do to put out these fires? A. Well, on one occasion the 
firemen were fired on. 

Q. Fired on by whom? A. By the Black-and-Tans. And the 
firemen of the city said if they were to go out again they would have 



663 

to get some protection. And the military came and protected them. 
But now they are unable to cope with the fires because they burn 
one place on one side of the city, and at the same time they burn 
another place on the other side of the city, and the firemen cannot 
cover them all. 

ENGLISH ATTACK BOY SCOUTS 

Q. You mentioned about the Boy Scouts in your city. A. Yes, 
they did good work on several occasions. They have been there for 
quite a long time. My brother-in-law started them. 

Q. And that was the organization that the Countess Markievicz 
had something to do with? A. Yes. 

Q. It was started before the uprising of 1916? A. Yes, exactly. 

Q. And it is an organization like the general Boy Scout move- 
ment, where the boys learn to be chivalrous, and have games, and 
the like? A. Yes, exactly. My brother-in-law used to play for 
them with his violin and teach them Irish songs. 

Q. And you mean that the Black-and-Tans are active against 
these Scouts now? A. Yes. As I said, they shot one of them dead, 
— this boy O'Handly, a boy of seventeen, I believe. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Do you know anything about the Countess 
Markievicz's case? It was said she was convicted of organizing 
Boy Scouts. A. I don't know anything about that. 

Q. You don't know anything about that case? A. No. 

HARASSED IN EMPLOYMENT BY ENGLISH 
CUSTOMERS 

There was another matter I should mention. Just during the war 
on a few occasions people came into my place of business. One 
lady was English. She spoke with an English accent. And she 
approached the manager and asked the manager if he knew that he 
had a Sinn Feiner there, a person with my dangerous views. Six 
weeks later she came in, and in the presence of all the people said, 
"I will not be served by that woman. She is a Sinn Feiner." And 
when I was home ill it happened again. 

Q. But the fact remains you were not thrown out of employment. 
A. No, of course not. I am head of the department. But it has 
been very hard on me for several years. 

Q. What is this American Shoe Company you mentioned? A 
It is a firm that sells a lot of American shoes. 

Q. And they burned it? A. Yes. 

Chairman Howe: I wish you would keep the witness on more 
important matters. 

Mr. F. P. Walsh: I thought it was important to know if they were 
burning American shoes. 

Chairman Howe: But she does not know who owns them. 



664 

Commissioner Wood: Does the Commission wish to ask any more 
questions? Do you, Mr. Walsh? 

Mr. F. P. Walsh : That is all, thank you. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: You did not see anybody struck by 
these whips? You only heard them say that they came in for fear 
of the whips? A. Yes, that is it. 

Q. Mr. F. P. Walsh: Did not you say you heard the crack of the 
whips? A. Yes, yes, I did. And I looked out just before and 1 
saw one of the Black-and-Tans with his hand in a man's pocket, 
and another Black-and-Tan flourishing a revolver. 

CURFEW PROTECTS POLICE IN RAIDS AND 
MURDERS 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: About this night you were telling 
about, — how many were shot? A. Five, — three men and two boys. 

Q. How many were killed? A. Three killed. 

Q. How many police were in that, — how many constables? A. I 
don't know how many were in it. As far as I can understand, there 
was a lorry, and it stopped near the place. Of course, it was during 
curfew hours. 

Q. So when the people have to be in their homes after the curfew 
hour, and when nobody is on the streets, these raids take place? 

A. Yes, it is generally after nightfall and during the curfew 
hours that these murders take place. 

Q. And this discrimination against your position, was that gen- 
eral through the city with other women and men? A. Well, it 
was in the case of the men. I know with my brother-in-law, he had 
a hard time on account of it during all the years he was in business. 

Commissioner Maurer: It reminds me pretty much of what is go- 
ing on in America now. 

The Witness: I don't know about that. 

Commissioner Maurer : Pretty much the same thing that we are 
experiencing in my state. 

Commissioner Wood: Thank you very much, Miss Walsh. 

( The witness was thereupon excused. ) 



TESTIMONY OF DANIEL J. BRODERICK 

I The witness takes the stand) 

Q. Mr. Basil M. Manly (of counsel I : Will you give your name, 
please, Mr. Broderick? A. Daniel J. Broderick. 
Q. Are you a resident of Chicago? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Where were you born? A. I was born in Ireland. 
Q. How old are you? A. Twenty-four, 



665 

Q. How long have you been in the United States? A. Seven 
years. 

Q. You came in 1913? A. 1913, the latter end. 

<Q. Are you an American citizen? A. Yes, sir. 

'Q. When did you become an American citizen? A. I became 
an American citizen in 1917. 

SERVED IN UNITED STATES ARMY AND NAVY 

Q. After you came to the United States what was your occupa- 
tion? A. A soldier in the United States army. I enlisted in 
May, 1914 

Q. What rank did you hold in the United States army during 
your service? A. Well, I held the ranks of private and corporal. 

Q. Where did you serve? A. I served in Minneapolis, Minne- 
sota; and Texas, Arizona, Oklahoma, and New Mexico. 

Q. You went on Border service? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What company? A. Company D, 119th United States In- 
fantry. 

Q. When did you leave the army? A. The latter end of 1917. 

Q. You were discharged for disability, were you not? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Have you your discharge papers? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. During that period you were on the Border, you saw a great 
deal of what is known as guerrilla warfare? A. Yes, sir; quite a 
great deal. 

Q. And later you enlisted in the United States navy? A. Yes, 
in March, 1918, I enlisted in the United States navy, and served in 
the navy for fourteen months. 

Q. What rank did you hold in the navy? A. Gunner's mate, 
second class. 

SCOPE OF OBSERVATIONS IN IRELAND 

Q. Have you been in Ireland recently? A. Yes, sir. I was in 
Ireland from September fifth to December fifth of this present year. 

Q. You have just returned? A. Just returned. 

Q. While you were in Ireland what part of the country did you 
see? Just give a general idea, without going into every town, — just 
the general part of the country that you saw. A. Well, I saw 
Limerick on a large scale. 

Q. Saw practically all parts of the County of Limerick? A. 
Yes, sir. The same as regards County Kerry and Cork, and a little 
of Tipperary. 

Q. The greater part of the time what town were you in? A. 
The greater part of the time I was in Abbeyfeale. 

Q. How large a town is Abbeyfeale? A. Well, it is a little 
town between one thousand and fifteen hundred inhabitants. 



666 

Q. Whom were you visiting in Abbeyfeale? A. My father and 
mother. They live there. 

Q. Have they any children besides yourself? A. Yes, sir. 1 
have six brothers and two sisters. 

INTRODUCTION TO BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q. Now, will you just cover briefly the events in Abbeyfeale 
during the time that you were there? Just what happened in this 
small town during the time that you were there? A. Well, I left 
the States and reached Abbeyfeale the twelfth of September, after 
spending seven days in Dublin. And the next day after I got there 
happened to be a Sunday, and my brother accompanied me to 
church. And the only Black-and-Tan attached to the garrison there 
at that time, he accosted my brother on the public street; and my 
brother happened to be wearing a temperance button and a green 
tie; and he snatched the temperance button off and threw it upon 
the street, and he pulled the tie out and said never to wear that tie 
again. 

Q. Your brother is a member of a temperance society? A. 
Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you happen to know the name of it? A. Well, I don't 
happen to know the name of it now. 

Q. But this button showed that he was a member of this temper- 
ance society? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Proceed. 

ARSON, LOOTING AND TERRORISM AS REPRISAL 

A. A week afterwards, on the 19th of September, there was a 
constable killed in ambush just outside the town, a man by the name 
of Mahoney. And that night the town was swarming with military, 
and they burned several houses, looted several shops, and fired 
indiscriminately into dwelling houses. They burned the town hall. 
The following day was Sunday, and they drove the people off the 
streets with fixed bayonets after church. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: After church? A. After church, 
yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What proportion of the houses in that town was 
destroyed by that fire? A. There were no houses completely 
burned, but several were wrecked, and bombs placed in the rooms 
destroyed all that was in there. That would be about five per cent, 
of the houses in the town. The next day was Monday, and I hap- 
pened to be in town. 

POLICY OF REPRISALS UNKNOWN IN AMERICAN 

ARMY 
Q. Before we pass on to the next event, do you know anything 
about how this ambush took place? A. I do not know. 



667 

Q. During the time that you were on the Border did ambushes 
take place? A. Yes, sir, several times. 

Q. What were the orders given you then? A. The orders Irom 
Washington from the War Department were not to shoot to kill, but 
to fire over their heads and try to scare them off. 

Q. Did you ever hear of any policy of reprisals when you were 
serving on the Border? A. No, not in my time. I never heard 
of any. 

Q. What action would be taken if the troops tried a reprisal on 
a Border town? A. Well, I think they would be tried by court- 
martial and sentenced from two to five years in Leavenworth. 

Q. As a soldier, you know that there would be a court-martial if 
soldiers disobeyed orders and shot up a town? A. Yes, sir. 

PEOPLE LEAVE HOMES FOR PROTECTION 

Q. Just proceed with the account of the shooting up of Abbey- 
feale. A. The following night, Monday night, there was a general 
exodus of the people living in the town. They left for the country. 
Those people were living in terror, it seemed to me. They were 
traveling out into the country seeking a shelter in the country 
homes. That night the town was deserted. The police garrison and 
the military were the only people in the town that night. And of 
course looting went on. 

Q. Looting by whom? A. By the military forces, the Black - 
and-Tans and the military. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Did you see them yourself? A. Yes, 
sir; not that night, but later on. 

Q. Not that night? A. No, sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was there anybody else on the streets that night 
except soldiers and the Black-and-Tans? A. No. There were 
three retired R. I. C. sergeants in the town who were living there, 
and from local opinion which I gathered, those sergeants prevailed 
on the military; and I think if it was not for their intervention the 
town would have been burned that night. Those men were retired 
R. I. C. sergeants who had previously served in the Royal Irish 
Constabulary. 

Q. Where did the population go that night? What did they do? 
How did they dispose of themselves? A. Why, they billeted them- 
selves in all the outlying country districts, and as far as possible 
from the roads. The next day was Monday. That was market day 
in the town. The military were very prevalent, patrolling up and 
down the streets. And I reported myself to the barracks that day. 
We were told in Liverpool, all the aliens — that is, all the American 
citizens — to report to the local police within two months after being 
in the country. So it was rather chilly and I was wearing my over- 
coat, an American army overcoat; and I was speaking to a constable 



668 

in the hall leading into the day room where those men were. 

Q. You went to report yourself according to instructions to the 
police? A. Yes. There were several R. I. C. police in there, and 
quite a few Black-and-Tans. And I heard two of those Black-and- 
Tans speaking of me with a personal reference. And one said, 
"Who is that bloody bloke with a cockney accent?" And the other 
replied, "He is one of those bloody Yankees who won the war." 

UNPROVOKED MURDERS BY BLACK-AND-TAN 

Well, that night a man named Hartnett, a letter carrier, a Govern- 
ment servant, and Healey, a blacksmith's apprentice, about six 
o'clock in the evening were driving a cow to pasture a little way 
outside the town, about three hundred yards from their own homes. 
And they were seen by this Black-and-Tan, the one I have already 
referred to. 

Q. Do you know his name? A. I don't know his name. I have 
heard it, but so many things have cropped up since that I have 
forgotten it. 

Q. But he was the only Black-and-Tan billeted in Abbeyfeale 
at this time? A. Yes, the only Black-and-Tan outside of the new 
reinforcements that came in. He followed those boys about three 
hundred yards outside the town and shot them both dead. 

Q. How do you know this? A. Why, he was seen by some ot 
those people who were going to seek shelter in the country that 
night. I spoke to some who saw him. 

Q. You spoke to those eye-witnesses? A. Yes, sir. He was also 
seen by this Healey 's father, who was about three hundred yards 
from the scene. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: This was about six o'clock at night? 
A. Yes, six o'clock in the evening. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What provocation was there for the shooting, as 
far as you know? A. None whatever, because there was proof 
brought forward afterwards that neither of those boys belonged to 
the Sinn Fein organization or the Irish Republican Army. In fact, 
one was a Government servant, a letter carrier. And Healey, I 
went to school with Healey; and I spoke to his father the day of the 
funeral, and he said the boy was not connected with the Sinn Fein 
organization in any way. 

Q. When were their bodies found? A. They were found the 
next morning. They were not taken in until the next morning, and 
then they were taken in to the local barracks. 

INNOCENT GIRL OF TEN WANTONLY SHOT 

Q. Was it about this time, or was it a little later, that a young 
girl was shot? A. No, it was on the fifth of November that two 



669 

Black-and-Tans by the names of Hawley and Allen were putting 
down explosives in the river quite near the town. 

Q. Was that illegal? A. Beg your pardon? 

Q. Was that killing of fish by explosives illegal? A. No, not 
according to English law. But previous to that time the Irish people 
were prosecuted for fishing without a license with rod and line. 
But those men were using explosives, blasting up the fish. After 
getting through there, they saw two cattle about three hundred yards 
from there; they saw these two cows on the river's bank, and took 
pot shots at them and killed them both. They belonged to a man 
named Greaney. About that time there were some school children 
about two hundred yards from there on a bridge across the stream; 
and when they heard the shots they screamed. And the Black-and- 
Tans shot at the girls, and shot one, Peggy Brosnan, through the 
leg, inflicting quite a serious wound. 

Q. How old was she? A. About ten years old. I spoke to her 
father and mother afterwards. They had spent some years in the 
United States. 

Q. And you spoke to the girl herself later and learned the facts? 
A. Yes, later from the girl, and from her father and mother, 1 
learned of the shooting. 

HOME WRECKED AND FIRED; WOMAN CLUBBED 

Q. Just proceed with the other things you learned in Abbeyfeale. 
A. I also spoke with several other victims of the Black-and-Tans. 
One of them was a Mrs. Hartnett. 

Q. Was she related to the other Hartnett you have testified 
about? A. I do not think so. I was speaking to her in her own 
house, what remained of it. Some evenings previously she said a 
military lorry had stopped at her place and told her to get out in 
the front yard. And then they started to destroy the furniture 
inside, and poured petrol on the stairs preparatory to setting it on 
fire. At the same time her son, a boy of about twenty-two, was 
upstairs in the attic in bed sick, suffering. He was a victim of 
tuberculosis. And all the time he was there while the military were 
down below doing their work of destruction. They applied several 
explosives in the room and set them off, wrecking everything and 
tearing things off the walls, tearing them down and breaking them. 

Q. Did you see the effects of those explosions? A. Yes, I saw 
them. 

Q. How soon afterwards did you visit them? A. About four 
days afterwards. 

Q. About when did this occur? A. This was about the twenty- 
fourth of September. 

Q. The twenty-fourth of September? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What reason was given for this treatment of Mrs, Hartnett 



670 

and her property? A. Well, it seems she had several sons. Most 
of them are in the States. One is in another part of the country 
quite distant from there. Their reason was, they said, that her son 
was connected with the Sinn Fein movement. It could not be the 
boy at home, because he was an invalid. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: What happened to the boy in the 
attic? A. Well, the stairs were on fire, so there was no way for 
getting down. But the neighbors were on the lookout, of course, 
and as soon as the military had departed, they came and rescued 
the boy and put out the fire. Before they left, one of the soldiers 
struck Mrs. Hartnett over the head with the butt of his rifle, inflict- 
ing quite a serious wound. 

Q. Did you see the wound? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was the character of the wound? A. Well, he must 
have hit her with the full butt of his rifle, for the wound was about 
three or four inches long. 

Q. Where was the wound? A. Right on top of her head. 

Q. So it must have come down from on top? A. Yes, sir. She 
said he clubbed his rifle and struck her. 

Q. Was this a Black-and-Tan? A. No. One of the regular 
military force. 

DRUNKENNESS COMMON AMONG CROWN FORCES 

Q. Now, you are a soldier with some military experience? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You have seen these Black-and-Tans and the military over 
there. Did they conduct themselves as soldiers? A. No, sir. They 
did not. Not by the way they conducted themselves around the 
streets there. One point in a good soldier is that he must be sober 
while on duty. And I have seen those men on duty and they were 
intoxicated. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did you see that often? Would you say 
that is a common occurrence? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How common? A. It is a regular practice. 

Q. A regular practice? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Take the bodies of Black-and-Tans that you saw. 
Would you say that a large number of the parties showed evidence 
of being intoxicated? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you see them anywhere else than Abbey feale? A. Yes, 
sir. I have seen them in Limerick and Newcastle West, and in 
Listowel, in County Kerry. 

Q. Did you ascertain where they got their liquor? A. Why, 
they got most of it from looting stores or saloons and taking what- 
ever they wanted. Of course, in the larger cities they have canteens 
in the barracks, and they can get these drinks right in the barracks. 



671 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Did you see a canteen in any barracks? 
A. Yes, sir, in Limerick. 

Q. You were in the barracks? A. Yes, sir. I drank there. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: What kinds of whiskey do they serve 
there? A. I did not drink any whiskey; just Bass' stout. 

Q. Do they have any whiskey? A. I don't think so. Most ot 
the drink is porter and stout, — Bass' ale. 

Q. Would a man become intoxicated by drinking a quantity ol 
it? A. Surely, surely. It doesn't take very much of that to put a 
man in good spirits. 

Q. Can they get it in quantities? A. Yes, sir; in large bottles, 
and any other way they want it. 

THE OLD CONSTABULARY WELL-DISCIPLINED 

FORCE 

Q. Chairman Howe: Now, you are a man of military experience, 
and I wish you would describe to us the general military character- 
istics of the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Black-and-Taris as 
you saw them, and the military authorities, so that we can see 
through your eyes just how those organizations are officered, what 
their duties are, and just what they were from yo.ur point of view. 
A. Well, the old R. I. C. service, I saw them — the old members 
— behave just like any military body should do. They behaved in 
military manner. They were well officered and well disciplined. 
And from what I have seen of them on duty, they acted with all 
good sense. 

Q. Did you see any instances in which they incited to trouble, or 
aggravated trouble, or were guilty of reprisals? A. Well, you 
speak of the Royal Irish Constabulary? 

Q. I am speaking of the Royal Irish Constabulary. A. No, sir. 

Q. Would you say that they confined their activities to maintain- 
ing order and ordinary police duties? A. Yes, sir; ordinary police 
duties. 

Q. As far as you have seen? A. As far as I have seen. 

Q. They do what you would expect an ordinary policeman to 
do? A. Yes, sir; in every respect. 

Q. As an American, you can speak very highly of the old R. 
I. C? A. Yes, sir, of what I have seen of them. 

THE BLACK-AND-TANS LICENSED PLUNDERERS 

Q. Now about the Black-and-Tans. A. The Black-and-Tans 
seem to be in the country to do all the damage and commit all the 
destruction that they possibly can, with the sanction of the Govern- 
ment. And it would seem that their officers have authority, and 
unlimited authority, to do destruction. 



672 

Q. Commissioner Wood: How did you get that idea? A. From 
(heir actions, — the way I saw them behave. 

Q. Chairman Howe: No restraint on them? A. No restraint 
on them at all. 

Q. And no discipline? A. No discipline whatever. 1 am speak- 
ing of my own experience. It seemed that a private there had as 
much authority as an officer, and could do what he felt like without 
incurring any punishment. 

Q. Did you know of any instances of punishment of Black-and- 
Tans? A. No, sir. 

Q. Of imprisonment or suspension or fines or reprimands? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. All the time you were over there, you never knew of a Black- 
and-Tan being punished? A. No, sir. 

Q. Would you know of that? A. Well, you could gather it 
from the papers if such was the case. 

Q. And you as a soldier were mixing among the R. I. C. and the 
Black-and-Tans and the military? A. No, I spoke to some of them, 
but I was not interested in them. 

Q. But you as a soldier was interested in their life and what 
they were doing? A. No, I was not. I spoke to the head sergeant 
and one of the local constables. 

THE REGULAR MILITARY POORLY DISCIPLINED 

Q. Now, coming to the regular troops. Were there any of them 
stationed where you were? A. Yes, there were in Newcastle, in 
the County of Limerick. 

Q. How many of them were there? A. About three hundred. 

Q. Were they properly officered? A. There were plenty of 
officers there, but they had no restraint over the men. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Now, go on in your own way and describe 
them. A. I have seen them travel along the roads there, and if a 
dog barked at their trucks — lorries, as they call them — that dog 
would be instantly shot. And it was a regular habit of theirs to 
shoot at houses adjoining the public road, and to take pot shots at 
cattle along the road as they went along. In the evenings at New- 
castle West, I have seen even non-commissioned officers make very 
insulting remarks to some young ladies in that town. 

Q. Was there any evidence that they drank like the Black-and- 
Tans? A. Well, I should think so. 

Q. But you did not see them? A. No, I did not see them, but 
I should think that a man would have to be very much under the 
influence of drinks to make such remarks, — that is, if he was a man. 

Q. Was discipline maintained among the military branch as well 
as among the Royal Irish Constabulary? A. No, not quite as well. 



673 

Q. But these men in the military branch were better than the 
Black-and-Tans? A. Yes, better. 

Q. Were they used in the raids like the Black-and-Tans? A. 
Yes, like the Black-and-Tans in the burning of creameries and in 
chasing members of the Sinn Fein organization. 

Q. That was pretty much done by the military and the Black- 
and-Tans? A. Yes, by the military and the Black-and-Tans. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: You saw some of this, did you? A. 
Yes, sir. 

SUCH CONDUCT SEVERELY PUNISHED IN 
AMERICAN ARMY 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: If you were in the army and went out 
on an expedition of some kind and had shot into houses and shot 
cattle and that sort of thing, what would have been the result to you 
as a soldier? A. Why, 1 would have been arrested and tried by 
court-martial and sentenced to Leavenworth or Alcatraz in Cali- 
fornia. 

Q. When you were on the Border you never saw such actions? 

A. No, sir; it never happened. 

Q. It never happened. And you are satisfied that if any Amer- 
ican soldier behaved in such a way, he would be punished? A. Yes, 
sir; he would certainly be punished. 

SOFT-POINT BULLETS USED BY POLICE AND 
BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you ascertain the character of any of the 
ammunition that was supplied to the Black-and-Tans? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Relate the circumstances under which you got this informa- 
tion. A. I was speaking to a sergeant at Abbeyfeale, — I will not 
mention his name, — and I asked him to examine his revolver, and 
he said I could not do that; and I knew that, because he was on 
patrol. And he said, "I will let you examine the ammunition." 
And I said, "What was it?" It was a .45, and the bullets, instead of 
being pointed at the end like ours, they were flat. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: They were flat-end, Mr. Broderick? 
A. Yes, sir; shaped something like this. Do you want to see it? 
(Producing bullet as exhibit.) 

Q. And they were soft lead? A. Yes, sir; soft lead bullets. 

Q. From your own experience, what would be the character of 
the wound inflicted by that bullet? A. Why, I should think that it 
was moulded in that way to rip more and do more damage than the 
ordinary type of bullet, because when this strikes a bone it will 
spread and flatten out; and even when it only strikes the flesh, it will 
flatten out and enlarge all the more and tear its way through. 



674 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you see any of that same type of ammunition 
anywhere else? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where was this? A. In Abbeyfeale. I asked a Black-and- 
Tan to see his ammunition, and he had the same thing, the flat-nose 
bullets. And I asked him if that was the kind of ammunition sup- 
plied to the military in Ireland. And he said yes, that the army of 
occupation is armed with this. This is revolver ammunition. (In- 
dicating.) 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Is this what is known as the dum-dum 
bullet? A. I don't think so. You can make a dum-dum bullet out 
of an ordinary bullet by putting a few notches in the end, so that 
it will spread out when it hits a bone. 

Q. That is, a dum-dum bullet can be made out of an ordinary 
kind of bullet by notching the end? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Have you seen any bullets of this kind over here? A. Mo, 
sir; not on this side of the water. 

Q. Major Newman: Were those bullets milled that way? Or 
are they moulded? A. Yes, sir, they are moulded like that. 

Q. Commissioner Wood : Those were lead instead of steel ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Had you any other information that this 
kind of ammunition was used in other places than this town? A. 
No, sir; this was the only town I had a chance to find out. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: These were both Black-and-Tans? 
A. No. One was a Black-and-Tan and the other was an R. I. C. 
man. 

Q. Mr. Manly: You were known in that town by that time? 
A. Yes, I had been there for two months. 

Q. You had become known there then, so that they got to talk 
to you in a friendly sort of way? A. Yes, I talked to them in a 
friendly sort of way, because I had no animosity against the men. 

Q. You visited Dublin also? A. Yes, I visited Dublin for 
seven days. The military were very much in evidence there. Ar- 
mored cars patrolled the streets. I saw the military searching sev- 
eral people on the streets on several occasions. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: In the day time? A. Yes, sir. 

UNRESTRAINED LOOTING OF SHOPS 

Q. Major Newman: A little while ago, in response to one of the 
questions, you said that you personally had knowledge of looting. 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Was that at Abbeyfeale? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly : Will you describe the circumstances in connec- 
tion with the looting that you saw? A. Well, I saw it when I was 
in a store there one evening. I was in the kitchen in the back, and 
I heard some angry words outside. The proprietor of this store 



675 

happened to be a widow. There were three Black-and-Tans outside. 

Q. Can you give her name? A. No, I do not know the names 
of those men. 

Q. I say, can you give the widow's name? A. Yes, Mrs. Ma- 
cauley. And those men, — one of them was helping himself to what- 
ever was inside the counter and passing it out to the two fellows 
who were outside, and the widow was standing by and watching. 

Q. Did she protest? A. She did. She protested, but they said 
they would take what they wanted; that they deserved it. So they 
took some soap and took a ham and three or four cases of cigarettes. 

Q. By that you mean cartons, large boxes? A. Yes, cartons. 
And a box of cigars. And then they left, and said she should be 
very glad that they did not take the money that was in the cash 
register. And besides, they had several drinks there before leaving. 

Q. In there? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was the drink? A. It was stout, — Guinness' stout. 

Q. Major Newman: Did they pay for the drinks? A. No, sir. 
I was in a store on another occasion, and two Black-and-Tans came 
into the saloon. I was there getting some photographs for my 
brother and sister who were coming to this country, and the photo- 
graphs happened to be left in this house. And I was waiting there 
for them to be completed when those two Black-and-Tans came in 
and ordered two drinks, one a whiskey and the other man a bottle of 
porter. They drank it, and there was no money coming up. And 
they ordered two more. They got them, and she demanded the 
price. They said they did not have to pay for the four drinks; that 
they could take all they wanted anyhow. And then they walked out. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were there any other cases of looting that you 
know of personally? A. Yes, I was in Brosna, County of Kerry, 
just about four days before I left for home. • 

Q. That is, about four days before you returned to the United 
States? A. Yes. And it seemed that three military trucks full of 
military had been there the day before (it was on a Saturday), and 
had looted several stores there. One of the people who were af- 
fected by this I was speaking to at that time, — a party by the name 
of Morrissey, and he was telling me that they had taken from him 
shoes and stockings and underwear and tobacco and cigarettes. 
Then I was in another place there, Murphy's, and there they took 
some money that was in the cash register, and also helped them- 
selves to some drink. And when they were through drinking, they 
turned on the faucets on the porter barrels and the whiskey barrels 
and let them run. They looted five stores altogether. 

Q. Is it a general condition that the Black-and-Tans refuse to 
pay for drink, or are these isolated cases? A. Well, the regular 
garrison in the towns in most cases will pay for what they get, but 
these raiding parties and those fellows riding in those motor trucks 



676 

do most of this destruction and most of the looting. The regular 
garrisons are not as had as the others. 

MILITARY MANUFACTURE EVIDENCE TO 
CONVICT REPUBLICANS 

Q. Did you talk to any Dublin police while you were in Dublin? 
A. Yes, I spoke to several of the Dublin police. 

Q. They were members of the Metropolitan Police? A. Yes. 
Some of the men I spoke to had been on the force for a period oi 
from twenty-five to twenty-eight years. 

Q. They police the city of Dublin, as I understand it. A. Yes, 
they police the streets, and confine themselves to regular police 
duties. 

Q. Are they armed? A. No, sir. I spoke to several of those 
men, and talked about raids. And they told me that most of the 
evidence got up to convict certain parties, certain Sinn Feiners or 
members of the Irish Republican Army, was manufactured evidence 
by the military; that when a military raiding party went to a house, 
they split up, an# one party would go into a room, and another 
party into the next room; and one party would plant some ammu- 
nition or maybe a revolver underneath the pillow or underneath the 
mattress. They would leave that room, and proceed to the next 
place, while the party in the next room would be waiting, and go 
into this room and find the manufactured evidence, thereby getting 
evidence to convict the party. 

Q. Who was it told you this? I don't want you to give his name 
if you think it would endanger his life. A. I will not give this 
party's name. There' were two or three officers I spoke to, all old 
members. 

Q. Had you known them from your previous visits there? A. 
Yes, I had known them from former years. 

Q. These were personal friends? A. Yes, personal friends. It 
seems that they had got this information from military officers who 
had taken part in those raids. 

Q. They were members of the Metropolitan Police themselves? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do they participate in those raids? A. No, sir. The mili- 
tary are reinforced by the Black-and-Tans, and they do all this 
raiding. I could not say if the G Division of the Dublin Metropoli- 
tan Police took part in those raids. 

Q. Major Newman: These statements about manufactured evi- 
dence were given to you by whom? A. By members of the Dublin 
Metropolitan Police. 



677 

SUPERIOR EFFICIENCY OF SINN FEIN COURTS 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were the Sinn Fein courts in action while yon 
were in Ireland? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. In the district in which you were? A. Yes, sir; right in 
the immediate neighborhood where I lived there. There were two 
cases tried in Sinn Fein courts and settled satisfactorily while I was 
there. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you hear those cases? A. No, sir. 

Senator Walsh: I would suggest, Mr. Manly, that the witness be 
confined to facts of his own knowledge. 

Q. Mr. Manly: How did those facts become known to you? 
A. I interviewed the people, the plaintiff and defendant in this land 
case, and it was settled satisfactorily to both parties. 

Q. What was the character of the case, as the plaintiff and 
defendant told you? A. Why, the case was where a brother and 
sister were on this certain farm. The brother got married, and — 

Senator Walsh: Wait a moment. Mr. Manly, we do not want to 
curtail the inquiry, but is not his evidence sufficient, that two cases 
have been tried and tried satisfactorily, without going into details, 
don't you think? 

Mr. Manly: I am personally willing to dismiss the matter if the 
Commission wishes to do so, but I thought the Commission might 
wish to get some more definite information about the character of 
cases handled in these courts. And in this particular case (to 
witness) : 

Q. Is it true that this court quickly determined a case that had 
been in the British courts for a long time? A. Yes, sir; it had been 
in the British courts for about two years; and finally it was tried in 
the Sinn Fein court, and it was settled satisfactorily to both parties. 

Q. And you interviewed the plaintiff and defendant? A. Yes, 
sir; both parties. 

Q. And they had taken the case voluntarily to this court? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Senator Walsh: It was over the division of land? 

Q. Mr. Manly: It was over the division of an estate between a 
brother and sister? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Senator Walsh: They were" relatives of yourself? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: How long was it in the British courts? 
A. About two years. 

Q. How long in the Sinn Fein courts? A. About a week. 

Q. It took about a week to dispose of it in the Sinn Fein courts, 
and about two years in the British courts? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Were the parties represented by lawyers? 
A. I don't think so, because if it is known that the Sinn Fein courts 
are to be held, naturally there will be a raid. 



678 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were there any British courts held at Abbey- 
feale? A. No, there were no British courts held in that neighbor- 
hood, as far as I could see. The courthouse was closed. 

Q. But these Sinn Fein courts were held there regularly? A. 
Yes, sir, every week. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did the people know generally that they 
were sitting? A. Well, those concerned knew that they were sit- 
ting. The people know they are sitting, but they do not know 
exactly the location. 

Q. Why do not the Black-and-Tans know they are sitting? A. 
Why, because the people do not see fit to give them any information. 

PEOPLE ALMOST UNANIMOUSLY BEHIND 
REPUBLIC 

Q. Were there no informers? A. Well, in the neighborhood 
from which I come from there were not. 

Q. Is that generally true? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And an army of occupation is unable to get any information 
from the people themselves? A. They might get the information 
from other parties, as far as I know, but I never heard of any case 
of where the people themselves informed. 

Q. You never heard of any case of informers? A. No, sir. 
There may have been informers in a city like Dublin, but not in 
Abbeyfeale. 

Q. So the Irish people do not give one another away? A. 
No, sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Is that section where you were sympathetic with 
the Sinn Fein movement? A. Sympathetic? 

Q. Yes. A. Yes, sir, about 99 per cent. 

Q. And the other 1 per cent.? A. They were lukewarm in their 
views. 

ASYLUM PATIENTS TERRIFIED BY REPEATED 

RAIDS 

Q. Do you know of any raids that occurred on asylums or work- 
houses while you were there? A. Yes, I spoke to a nurse in a 
workhouse * in Newcastle West, and she said that the military had 
been there several times searching for arms and also for possible 
Sinn Fein patients who might be there suffering from gunshot 
wounds. And they turned the place into an awful confusion and 
terrified all the patients. 

Q. Commissioner Wood : They came there searching for Sinn 
Feiners who had been wounded? A. Yes, also for arms. 



1 The British workhouse is not a penal institution but an almshouse. 



679 

TRAVEL RESTRICTIONS, SEARCHES, AND 
CONFISCATIONS 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you also experience any restrictions on 
travel? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Without going into details, just give their general character. 
A. Well, the first evening, I was going south from Dublin, and 
missed my train from Tralee to Abbeyfeale. There was only one 
train running a day, and so I had to take a taxi home. It is a 
distance of over thirty miles, between thirty and forty miles. And 
just outside the town of Tralee I noticed a patrol stationed along 
the road at distances from eighteen to twenty-five yards. And when 
we came up to the first patrol, he pressed his rifle to the driver's 
head and told him to stop, and told me to get out and to put my 
hands up, and began searching me before I could say a word, and 
before I could tell him that I was an American citizen. When I did 
tell him that I was an American and had my passport there, he said, 
"I don't give a damn if you are the American President, we are 
going to search your baggage if you never get on." This was about 
six o'clock in the evening, and we had about forty miles to go to 
get home. 

Q. Did you show him your passport? A. Yes; he showed it to 
another member of the patrol. 

Q. Did they search your baggage? A. Yes. I had to unlock 
my baggage and it was searched right there in the road. It took 
about twenty minutes. 

Q. And your person was searched? A. Yes, my person was 
searched. Do you want any other instances? 

Q. Are automobiles permitted to go freely around the country? 
A. No, there are great restrictions on automobiles. I was told 
before I left by several automobile owners that before you can make 
application for a license, you must have the machine bought and 
in your possession ; and if the local military authorities do not see 
fit to give you a license, they can commandeer your car. And when 
I left there an automobile could not travel any more than twenty 
miles, within a radius of twenty miles, from its garage. 

Q. What is the condition of the Irish railways? What was the 
condition at the time you left? Were they running? A. Well, 
they were running, but not very well. In some places there was only 
one train a day on certain lines. 

Q. So that the only method of travel left is by automobile, — that 
is, quick travel? A. Yes, by automobile for quick travel. 

Q. And that is restricted to twenty miles? A. Yes. If you 
want to go further you have to transfer. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: How did you get that forty miles? 
A. What is that? 



680 

Q. You said you had to go forty miles to get home, and auto- 
mobiles could only go twenty miles from their garage. A. Well, 
that was before this was passed. 

Q. Mr. Manly: How long ago was this? A. About a month or 
six weeks ago. 

Q. Previous to that you could go more than twenty miles, but 
you were in danger of having your car confiscated? A. Yes, there 
were some cases where automobile owners had their cars confiscated 
by the military, and brought back to them wrecks, and no effort 
made to compensate them. In one case I was speaking to a particu- 
lar taxi owner, and he had his car confiscated by the military and 
never returned. 

Q. Where was this? A. In Abbeyfeale. 

Q. Do you know the name of the owner? A. Yes, sir. His 
name was Danagher. And this car was never returned, and no effort 
made to compensate him for the loss of the car. 

DESTRUCTION OF CREAMERIES 

Q. Now, are there any other things of which you know that you 
think would be valuable to this inquiry that we have not covered? 
A. Well, there was a regular destruction of creameries going on 
over there. 

Mr. Manly: I think that has been fairly well covered by a pre- 
vious witness. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Did you see any of them yourself? 

A. I was speaking to several Volunteers. 

Q. Whom? Volunteers? A. Yes, several Volunteers. 

Q. Of the Irish Republican Army? A. Of the Irish Republican 
Army. They told me that the military came up and deliberately 
and maliciously set fire to this creamery. 

REPEATED SEARCHES IMPEDE TRAVEL 

Q. Mr. Manly: Are there any other matters of which you were 
an eye-witness that you think you ought to speak of? A. Well, 
except what happened to myself. 

Q. What was that? A. I cycled one time to Limerick. If you 
do not have a bicycle, you are out of luck over there now, for you 
will have to walk. 

Q. What was the occasion of your making this trip to Limerick? 
A. Well, I had to get a local passport. You had to register with 
the County Inspector, and you got something like this (producing 
paper) . 

Q. That is the local passport issued to you? A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: That is necessary to travel in Ireland? 
A. Yes, if you are to stay over two months in the country. Well, 



681 

all the way to Limerick I met military trucks, and they seemed to 
want to take all the road. I would give them all the road, and they 
would pull in close to me and cover me with mud. I met several 
patrols, and every one of them stopped me and searched me. I had 
a white shirt when I started, but before I got there it" was black from 
their handling of me. I had a small kodak, a Brownie Number Two, 
in the pocket of my overcoat thrown over my handlebars; and they 
even made me take that apart to see if it contained arms. 

Q. Did you have your American passport? A. Yes; if I did 
not have that, I think I would have received rough handling. And 

when I showed that, they appeared very antagonistic to me. 

i 
I 

MARK OF RESPECT FOR DEAD FORBIDDEN 

Q. Were you in any of the towns the day that the hunger strikers 
died? A. Yes, sir; I was in Abbey feale. 

Q. What did the people of Abbey feale do? A. In order to 
show their respect for the dead, they put up the shutters to the 
windows. They did this when Fitzgerald died. 

Q. He was one of the hunger strikers who died in Cork previous 
to the death of the Lord Mayor of the city? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What happened then? A. The Black-and-Tans came around 
about twelve o'clock. They came and ordered all the people to take 
down their shutters under penalty of having their premises burned 
and themselves shot. I was in Newcastle the day that Lord Mayor 
MacSwiney died, and the cadets there — 

Q. Who are the cadets? A. They are formed from ex-soldiers 
of the British army. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Are they members of the British army? 
A. They operate separately. 

Q. Senator Walsh: That is what is called the auxiliary force? 
A. I think so. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Do you know what their duties are? A. They 
go on raiding parties. 

Q. Senator Walsh: What did you see them do this day? A. I 
saw them tear the shutters off the houses there in several cases. In 
one house, — it was a widow with a large family, and she said she 
did nol have anybody to lake down the shutters, and they went in 
and look down the shutters, and threw them out in the street instead 
of placing them against the walls, — they threw them out in the street 
in Newcastle. Also, they told the people to take down their shutters 
under penalty of having their property burned. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: And these shutters were put up out <>l 
respect for Lord Mayor MacSwiney? A. Yes, sir. 



682 

Q. Mr. Manly: They put up these shutters to show their respect 
for the Lord Mayor on the occasion of his death? A. Yes, sir. 

SEARCHED THIRTY-THREE TIMES IN THREE 
MONTHS 

Q. Senator Walsh: You were in Ireland how long? A. I was 
in Ireland about three months. 

Q. How many times were you subjected, in your home or on the 
roads or on the streets, to being searched? A. I never was searched 
in my home. 

Q. But how many times on the streets and roads, — accurately, 
now? A. I was searched about thirty-three times. 

Q. How many times was a revolver displayed to you? — pointed 
at you? A. Twice, I think. Yes, on two occasions. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Pointed at you? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did you see other people held up by revol- 
vers? A. Yes, sir. I have seen lots of other people held up by 
revolvers and rifles with fixed bayonets. 

Q. Men or women? A. Men and women. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: As a soldier, what would you think 
of a man that would hold up an unarmed man or women or children 
with a gun? A. I would think that he would be a poor type of 
man and soldier. 

Q. Would you care to go into a real battle with that kind of a 
man? A. Would I care to go into battle with him? 

Q. Yes, would you care to have such a man fighting with you 
in a real battle? A. I would not care to do so, because it would 
not be safe. 

A COUNTRY OF WIDOWS 

Q. Now, every witness speaks of widow so-and-so, and this 
widow and that widow. Everyone speaks of the widows over there. 
What becomes of the men? A. Why, the majority of them are shot. 
That is about all I can say. 

Q. It seems like there is a campaign of annihilation, does it? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were they widows of men killed in the great war, 
or during the present trouble? A. Both. 

Q. Senator Walsh: I suppose the British troops claim that the 
women help the men conceal themselves and their arms, and that 
is why they justify themselves in holding up women and children. 
A. Yes, sir. 

Commissioner Maurer: It seems to me that they would not have 
to use a gun with a fixed bayonet to hold up women or children. 



683 

Senator Walsh: I was not considering the necessity. I was only 
getting at the motive. 

Mr. Manly: Thank you very much. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 

Adjournment 4:48 P. M. 



FOURTH HEARINGS 

ON CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Session Three 

Before the Commission, sitting in the Hotel LaFayette, Washing- 
ton, D. C, Thursday, December 23, 1920. Acting Chairman Howe 
presiding. 

10:15 A. M. 

Chairman Howe: The sessions will begin. 

TESTIMONY OF MRS. MICHAEL MOHAN 

Q. Mr. Basil M. Manly: Will you state your name to the Com- 
mission? A. Mrs. Michael Mohan. 

Q. And where do you reside? A. 33 West Hayes Avenue, 
Corona, Long Island. 

Q. Where were you born? A. Ireland. 

Q. At Queenstown? A. Yes. 

Q. How old were you when you came to the United States? 
A. Eighteen. 

Q. Your husband is an American citizen? A. Yes. 

Q. Were you married in the United States? A. Yes. 

Q. When did you last visit Ireland? A. I landed on May 
thirtieth of this year on the Baltic. 

Q. And what was the purpose of your visit? A. To visit my 
parents. 

Q. And where do you reside? A. The Hill House, Queens- 
town. 

Q. And how long were you in Ireland? A. Six months. 

Q. You returned when? A. I left there November fourth. 

Q. Your father's business is a large general store business? 
A. Yes, a grocery, wine, and spirit business. 

Q. Like all the other stores in Ireland, they combine these 
things? A. Yes. 

Q. So that there are a great many people going and coming? 
A. Yes, all the time. That is how I came in touch with so much 
over there. 

CONDITIONS IN QUEENSTOWN 

Q. What were the conditions when you went to Queenstown? 
A. Well, it was not so very bad then. Of course, there was a large 
number of soldiers there. 

684 



685 

Q. Were raids being conducted then? A. No, not for a short 
time after I landed. 

Q. Were houses being searched? A. Yes, they were continually 
being searched then. 

Q. But no property was destroyed? A. No, no property was 
being destroyed. 

Q. About when did raids and violence seem to begin in Queens- 
town? A. About the end of June. 

Q. How many brothers have you? A. Two living. 

Q. Do they reside at your father's house? A. They have not 
been home for two months. One is twenty and the other is 
twenty-one. 

Q. They are on the run? A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Because they are Sinn Feiners? Did 
someone try to arrest them? A. Oh, yes; even shot at the younger 
one. 

Mr. Manly: We will bring out some specific instances that relate 
to those matters. 

RAIDERS INSULT AMERICAN FLAG 

Q. What was the first large raid, — what was the date? A. Au- 
gust 27th. 

Q. Will you tell about the occurrences on that night? A. Yes. 
On the night of August 27th the Volunteers came up and told every- 
body to put their lights out, and told everybody to clear off tlio 
streets. 

Q. What reason did the Volunteers give? A. Because they 
were raiding down town, — the soldiers and police. 

Q. They brought the message? A. Yes, they always do when 
those raids are on. 

Q. About what time was that? A. It was about ten o'clock 
when they came and told everybody to get off the streets and put 
their lights out. But before that we heard them firing down the 
street. And being an American citizen, I put out the American flag 
for protection. And when they got to The Hill House they stopped 
and one of them said, "Come here, lads. Tear down this damned 
American flag and trample on it." He tried to climb up the pedes- 
tal, but they could not do it, and finally had to give it up. So thp 
next day I went down to the American Consul there and told him 
about it. 

Q. Do you know the name of the American Consul there? A, 
Mr. Adams or Andrews. And I reported it to the commanding offi- 
cer up to the Belmont Hutments. 

Q. What are the Belmont Hutments? A. The place where the 
soldiers are. He said that the only satisfaction he could give me 



686 



was that they were drunken soldiers. And I said, "That is very 
little satisfaction." And he said, "Well, you know they hate Amer- 
icans as much as they hate the Irish." I said, "Will you cable the 
news across?" And he said they would not send the cable. 

Q. Who would not send the cable? A. The English. They 
would censor it. But he said I might send the news to my husband 
and he could publish it in this country. And I did send the word, 
but he did not publish it because I might be shot for sending it to 
him, he feared. 

WINDOWS DEMOLISHED IN QUEENSTOWN 

The next night there was another raid on, and I wanted some 
protection, and called up the American Consul. And the Consul 
said, "You are living in a British house as a guest, and the only 
protection I can give you is to come down to the Consulate office." 

Q. What happened that night? A. They went down to the 
business part of town and smashed up the Rob Roy Hotel, and 
wrecked everything they could find. 

Q. What is the Rob Roy Hotel? A. It is a very large hotel 
there. Oh, I didn't tell you that when they tried to tear down the 
American flag and could not get it because it was up too high, they 
smashed in the two big plate-glass windows of my father's house. 
Then they went up to Bishop Street — 

Q. Were windows smashed all through Queenstown that night? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Do you know whether these bodies of men were Black-and- 
Tans? A. There were a couple of Black-and-Tans and a couple 
of R. I. C. with them, and also a couple of officers, and the rest wen- 
soldiers. I should say that there was an officer with each batch of 
twenty or thirty, with each batch that came. 

RAIDERS COMMANDED BY BRITISH OFFICERS 

Q. Major Newman: Were they officers of the army or of the 
Black-and-Tans? A. Oh, officers of the army, because nobody 
wants to command the Black-and-Tans. The D. I., — District Inspec- 
tor of the Royal Irish Constabulary, — does not want to recognize 
them, and the military officers do not want to admit that they belong 
to them. 

Q. And you saw British officers in command of these raiding 
parties? A. Yes, British officers with their caps off. 

Q. Mr. Manly: You could tell them by their uniforms? A. Oh, 
yes, yes. 

Q. Senator Norris: Will you tell us just what they did? Or 
what did they try to do, that night at your father's house? A. Well, 



687 

they came along in front of the house, and one of them saw the 
American flag I had hung out, and he said, "Come on, boys. Tear 
down that damn American flag." And then they tried to climb up 
this side-post, this wooden pedestal, but they could not get up there. 
Q. How high was it? A. About as high as those lights there 
( indicating bracket lights in room) . 

ADMIRALTY MARINES DISPERSE RAIDERS 

Q. And then what did they do? A. They went up to Bishop 
Street to get into some houses there. When the doors would not 
open, they fired stones through the windows onto the beds. 

Q. What happened then? A. The Admiralty chased them orl 
then, — the Admiralty Marines. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: The British Admiralty Marines? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Senator Norris: Then this raid did not have the sanction of 
the Admiralty? A. Well, the navy is far superior to the army. 
But still those men kept up their yelling and making a disturbance. 
You see, they had to go past our house to get back. 

HOW THE IRISH ARMY SECURES ARMS 

Q. What were the incidents that led up to these raids? A. The 
Volunteers had made a raid on a place called The Quarry, a few 
minutes' walk from my home. 

Q. How did that happen? A. There were about twenty or 
thirty guns stacked up in the court,— guns left from the great war. 
There were some Volunteers attacked it to get them,- — some of them 
were armed and some were not. And the soldier guarding them did 
not want to give them up; so the Volunteers fired at him and 
wounded him in the leg, but not seriously. 

Q. Major Newman: When did that occur? A. On the 25th, 
Friday night, — because it was pay night and they were all drunk. 

Q. Senator Norris: This raid on your father's house occurred 
on the 27th? A. Yes. 

Q. And when you speak of the Volunteers you mean the Irish 
Republican Army? A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Who was in charge of these soldiers who had 
their arms taken away from them? A. There was nobody respon- 
sible for them at the time. 

Q. Where was the officer who was supposed to be in charge of 
them? A. They were playing tennis at the time. And after this 
happened they ran to him and told him. And he ran to the head 
of Bishop Street and fired into the houses. I saw the marks myself. 
This officer was going around like a madman waving his revolver 
and firing, — going around on crutches, for he was partly paralyzed. 



688 

Q. Do you know his name? A. No, I do not. 

Q. Did he hit any women or children? A. No, he did not. 

Q. Major Newman: Did you see the raid by the Volunteers? 
A. No, I did not see them, but I know they were after those guns. 

Q. Senator Norris: I suppose that is the way the members of the 
Volunteer army get their guns? A. Yes, it is. 

Q. That is the only way they have of arming themselves, — 
capturing guns from the British? A. Yes, capturing guns from the 
British, and then fighting them with them. 

BROTHERS ARRESTED, HANDCUFFED, AND SHOT 

Q. Mr. Manly: About this time did you take a motor trip? 
A. Yes, that was a few days later. 

Q. About what time was that? A. About the 29th. 

Q. The 29th of August? A. Yes. About two days later I was 
motoring through Midleton, which is about five miles from Queens- 
town, and I saw them arresting two young men by the name of 
Buckley, brothers; and they were both in the lorry and handcuffed 
as well; and they drove them a little way outside of Midleton — 

Q. Major Newman: Who was arresting them? A. The Cam- 
eron Highlanders, a Scottish regiment. 

Q. Were there Scotch regiments there? A. Yes, in Midleton. 

Q. And you saw them arrest these men? A. Yes. And they 
drove them a short way outside the town, and strapped them together 
and shot them both. One died and the other lived. 

Q. Where did you get that information? A. I got it from two 
other Volunteers. 

Q. Did you know these Buckley boys? A. No. 

Q. But you saw them arresting them? A. Yes. 

Q. What explanation did they give? A. The officer in charge 
of them said that they were trying to escape out of the lorry. But 
they were handcuffed together and surrounded by thirty soldiers at 
the time, and they could not possibly escape. 

Q. I would like to get the source of that information. 1 A. Do 
I have to tell the names of the parties who told me? I don't want 
to blacken them. 

Q. Did you hear this from his people? A. The boy who was 
not yet dead told about it, and I got it from the friend to whom he 
told it. 

Q. They were tied together and shot? A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Did you say these two boys were 
handcuffed together and shot? A. Yes. I saw them put into the 
lorry handcuffed. 



1 See affidavit of surviving brother, Bartholomew Buckley, and Index. 



689 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were they handcuffed together then? A. No. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: And their hands were handcuffed to- 
gether this way (indicating!? A. Yes. 

Q. And where did they take them then? A. They took them 
away, as usual, to put them in prison if they do not shoot them 
meanwhile. 

Q. You have no idea whether it was a day or two days alter this 
when they were shot? A. No, no, it was the same afternoon. 

Q. How far from there were their bodies found? A. Oh, they 
were taken over to the barracks by the soldiers. 

Q. Major Newman: And was there an official reason given for 
this? A. Yes, that they were trying to escape out of the lorry. 
There is always some reason given for it. 

MISDEEDS NOT PUNISHED BUT CONDONED 

Q. Was there an official inquiry about it? A. I don't know. 
You do not hear what is happening in the police barracks there. 
They are all the time fighting and scrapping with each other there, 
and you hear very little about what happens there. 

Q. But during the time you were in Queenstown, for some six 
months, did you hear of any punishment of any private soldier or 
police officer or Black-and-Tan in any way? A. No, none. The 
only thing is that Lloyd George says that it is hard to blame them; 
that the men are provoked a lot and lose their heads. 

Q. But no satisfaction was given to the people of Queenstown 
for the losses they suffered from these raids? A. No, none what- 
ever. 

FOUR RAIDS ON FATHER'S HOME 

Q. How many raids on your father's house were made while you 
were there? A. There were four raids while I was there. 

Q. Can you give the exact dates? A. No, I cannot give the 
exact dates, but I know about when they occurred. 

Q. When was the first one? A. The first one was when I was 
home about three weeks. It would be about the first week in June. 

Q. Will you name the particular incidents on that occasion? 
A. Well, my two brothers happened to be in that afternoon, and 
they searched both of them, and searched my father; and then the 
soldiers went upstairs to search the rooms. But they did not arrest 
anybody that time; and one of the soldiers said to my brother, 
"We do not like the job we have to do here. We didn't join the 
army to do like this." And my brother said, "If you don't like your 
job, why don't you throw your coat off?" 

Q. When did that raid occur, — what time? A. Three or four 
in the afternoon. 



690 

Q. When was the next raid? A. The next raid was about one 
o'clock in the morning. 

Q. About what month? A. June or July, I could not say 
exactly. 

Q. About how long after the first raid? A. Two weeks; two 
or three weeks. 

Q. What were the general incidents of that raid? A. Well, that 
raid they came up to the house — 

Q. Senator Norris: How did they get in the house? A. They 
knocked at the door, and my father put his head out — of course, 
there are lorries rattling by and firing going on all night, and you 
cannot sleep very well. My father put his head out and said, "Who 
is there?" And they said, "Police and soldiers. Open the door!" 
And he said, "All right." They hardly gave him time to dress, and 
he went downstairs and let them in. And they said, "Where are 
your boys?" And he said, "They are not home." And then they 
came upstairs and searched the rooms. On one occasion they 
searched my bureau drawers. 

Q. At this time did you get up? A. Of course I got up. We 
got up, with soldiers lining the stairs and bayonets sticking into 
our noses. 

Q. About how many of them came in? A. There were about 
twenty of them came in, and some remained outside the house, — - 
about thirty of them altogether. 

AN ATTEMPT TO MANUFACTURE EVIDENCE 

Q. Did they search your clothing? A. Yes, they searched the 
drawers and clothes and everything. And a Sergeant Driscoll 
dropped a half-dozen bullets on the floor, and my father called his 
attention to them; and the sergeant in charge, he was a decent 
fellow, — there are some decent fellows among them, — he called his 
attention to it and said, "Those are your cartridges." And at the 
time he was making over to my brother's overcoat. 

Q. Mr. Manly: He had them in his hand? A. Yes, he had them 
in his hands. And as I learned afterwards, they had no right to 
have bullets in their hands, because their revolvers are already 
loaded. 

Q. Did he seem confused? A. Yes, terribly confused. He 
didn't mean to drop them. He was going to put them into the 
pocket of my brother's overcoat. 

Q. Senator Norris: Did they give you time to dress? A. No, 
no time to dress. My mother always sleeps in her clothes. 

Q. And they got you all out of bed in your night clothes? 
A. Yes, yes. I sleep with a coat over my nightgown. 

Q. What excuse did they give for searching like that in the 



691 

middle of the night? A. They said they were searching for my 
brothers and for ammunition. 

Q. What kind of language did they use, — were they gentle- 
manly? A. Yes, they were all right that night. 

Q. Major Newman: Who were in charge of them that night? 
A. This Sergeant Driscoll was in charge of the police, and the 
Cameron Highlanders' officer was in charge of the military. 

Q. Did this Cameron officer call this sergeant, this Sergeant 
Driscoll's attention to the bullets that he dropped? A. Yes, he did. 

Q. What did he say? A. He said, "They are your bullets. 
Pick them up." He did not like it, and I suppose he got it after- 
wards. 

Q. How many raids were there on your father's house after 
that? A. There were only two. The next was on a holiday. My 
mother was going to eight o'clock Mass, and she saw them enter 
the house when she was coming back. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were there any particular incidents connected 
with that raid? A. Yes, they found a Sinn Fein flag in my bureau 
drawer, and they said, "Whose is that?" And I said, "It is mine." 
And he said, "Where did you get it?" And I said, "In America. 
It is mine, and I will show you a better one." And I showed him a 
Saint Patrick's Day badge made in New York. And he said, "What 
do you want that for?" And I said, "We are all Sinn Feiners over 
there." 

Q. Senator Norris: What time was that? A. About eight 
o'clock in the morning. My mother was just coming back from 
Mass. 

PERSONAL INDIGNITIES 

Q. Did they empty out the bureau drawers? A. Yes, of course 
they did. And they never take the trouble to put them back. The 
last time they asked my mother for my brothers' photographs, and 
she gave them photographs of them when they were about twelve 
years old. And he said, "They are a bit older than that now." And 
he cut out the pictures and threw them on the floor. 

Q. Did any personal indignities happen to you? A. Yes. One 
day my sister and I were out bathing at Cuskinny — 

Q. It is near Queenstown? A. Yes, it is about a mile out. It 
is the regular bathing beach. We were out bathing there and we 
saw an officer and a soldier. And they came on down; and as soon 
as we saw them we got right out of the water and sat on the beach, 
and got some of our clothes on. And they went down where we 
were, and they stripped stark naked and went in bathing right in 
front of us. And then they whistled at us, and said, "Come on, 
girls." And we turned our backs to them. And then they got out 



692 

and came up towards us. And we set two big dogs on them that 
were with us. 

Q. Major Newman: Who were these men? You say one of them 
was an officer? A. Yes, an officer of the Cameron Highlanders. 

Q. How did you know? A. By the uniform that he wore. 

PEOPLE SEEK REFUGE IN CEMETERY 

Q. Mr. Manly : Where do the women and children go during 
these raids? A. They go to the Christian Brothers' College, and 
the Sisters of Mercy, and take their blankets with them. And then 
a lot of them go to the graveyard. One old man named Moore goes 
and sleeps there on the grave of his wife night after night. A lot 
of them do that. 

Q. A lot of them sleep in the graveyard? A. Yes, a lot of 
them sleep in the graveyard, even during pouring rain. I used to 
get up and go to early Mass, and I have seen them coming out of 
there in the morning. 

TROOPS TERRORIZE PEOPLE IN ACT OF PRAYER 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were there occasions on which there were threats 
against the people when they were gathered together? A. Oh, yes. 
They were reciting the rosary in Scott Square. 

Q. About how many, a hundred? A. Oh, more than a hundred. 
At least two hundred people. We were reciting the rosary in Irish. 

Q. This was in Scott's Square? A. Yes, in Scott's Square, right 
under the Market Arch. 

Q. What was the occasion for reciting the rosary? A. They 
were reciting the rosary for the hunger strikers in Cork jail. And 
then lorries of soldiers came along with those revolving guns. 

Q. Machine guns? A. I don't know whether they were machine 
guns, but they revolved like this (indicating swivel motion). They 
did not fire them, but they swung them around on the people. 

Q. But by revolving guns you mean mounted guns? A. Yes, 
they are mounted on the lorries, and revolve around in some way. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Like machine guns, — bigger than 
rifles? A. I don't know whether they were bigger or not, but they 
stuck out of the lorries in every way. 

Q. And they pointed them at the crowd? A. Yes, at the crowd. 
And then they ran home in every direction. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were there women there? A. Yes, there were. 
And there were men in the crowd too. 

Q. Major Newman: Were these soldiers in the lorries? A. Yes. 

Q. Did they say anything? A. No, because they were down at 
the general postoffice then. 

Q. Mr. Manly: About how far away is that? A. About a hun- 



693 

died yards, I should say, — a little further away than the length of 
this room. 

Q. And they were at the general postoffice? A. Yes, opposite 
Scott's Square. 

PETTY TYRANNY IMPOSED BY BAYONET 

Q. Do you recall the night that Queenstown was illuminated in 
honor of the hunger strikers? A. Yes. There was a regiment of 
these came along, and an old man was standing smoking in front 
of his door, and a Cameron Highlander ran out of the crowd and 
said, "Put up your hands, you old so-and-so, or I will run this 
through you." 

Q. He had a fixed bayonet? A. Yes, a fixed bayonet, and he 
pointed it right at him. I was going this way, and it happened like 
this (indicating right angle of vision), so that I could see it all. 
My sister said, "Do not look." 

Q. Major Newman: What happened then? A. Well, of course 
the man put his hands up. 

Q. What did he do? A. He searched him. 

Q. Did he say anything? A. No, of course not. He only 
wanted to scare him. 

Q. And then he let him go? A. Yes, he did. 

SELECT COLLEGE SEARCHED FOR ARMS 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you see the searching of Rockwell College? 
A. Yes, I did. 

Q. Where is Rockwell College? A. It is in Clare. 

Q. What did they do there? A. They were looking for rifles; 
and they tore down the statues. 

Q. What is Rockwell College? A. It is a very swell college. 

Q. A large number of students? A. Yes. 

Q. And you saw them tearing down the statues? A. I saw 
them standing around where the statues were. 

Q. But you did not go in there? A. No. But they held us up 
in the automobile. That is why I saw so much. They would not let 
us go on while this raid was going on. 

Q. Major Newman: But you did not see them tearing down the 
statues? A. I saw them standing around the statues, and could not 
see what they were doing. But we learned afterwards what they 
were doing there. 

Chairman Howe: Do you think all of this is material? 

Mr. Manly: Well, Mr. Howe, I think raids on educational insti- 
tutions have not been developed up to this time, and it is a very 
important point. 



694 

Chairman Howe: I have no objection to that, but we have gone 
through this detail so many, many times that I do not think it is 
necessary now. 

DISCIPLINE IN IRISH VOLUNTEER ARMY 

Q. Mr. Manly: Do you know of any occasion when Volunteers 
have been disciplined? A. Yes, on one occasion One of them took 
it into his own hands to shoot at the D. I. — the District Inspector — 
without getting permission to do it. Those men are usually marked 
out before they are shot. They are tried in courts beforehand. And 
this fellow shot at him. Of course the police and soldiers never got 
him, but the Volunteers found out who did it, and they disciplined 
him. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: What did they do to him? A. They 
put him in an unknown destination. 

Q. Chairman Howe: They sent him out of Queenstown some- 
where? A. Yes, they did. Well, this fellow had been on a six or 
eight-day hunger strike. And when they come out of that, they are 
apt to do almost anything. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I suppose they are very weak then? 
A. Yes, and they do not care what they do. 

Q. Major Newman: Mr. Manly, could this be more specific? 

Q. Mr. Manly (to witness) : Can you give the name of the Vol- 
unteer? A. Well, I do not want to do that, because those fellows 
are blackened enough now. 

Q. And who was the District Inspector? A. He is the same 
one who is there now. 

Q. And you got this information through your brothers? A. I 
would not say my brothers. I got it through the Volunteers. 

Q. And you do know that there was a trial held, and this man 
was disciplined, and a specific sentence passed on him? A. Yes, 
yes. 

Q. That he had to leave the Volunteers and leave that vicinity? 
A. No, he did not leave it; they took him. 

Q. Major Newman: What was done to him? A. He was taken 
to a U. D. — an unknown destination. 

Q. He was not killed? A. No, of course they did not kill him. 
They merely took him off. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Why did they do that? A. Because they 
thought he was a dangerous man. 

Q. Major Newman: He might do something to bring discredit 
on them? A. Yes, yes. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Do you know of any more cases of dis- 
cipline like that? A. Indeed, I cannot recall all those things now; 
but if I knew I was coming here I could have written down some 
of them. 



695 

Q. Mr. Manly: You mean not within your own knowledge? 
A. No, I don't know. 

VOLUNTEERS PLEDGED TO SOBRIETY 

Q. Do you know anything about the Volunteers being sober? 
A. Oh, indeed they are all good, sober men. They are afraid of 
being shot otherwise. They are good men, living not for themselves 
alone, but for the nation. 

Q. Major Newman: Do the Volunteers take a pledge not to 
drink? A. Yes, they do. 

Q. Do they ever drink? A. Some of them may take a bottle of 
stout occasionally, but nothing stronger; and most of them are total 
abstainers. 

Q. Do you know the wording of the pledge? A. No, I do not. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Is there a special path for them to take? 
A. Oh, indeed. They are very particular about whom they take 
into the Volunteers. There is an examination about it. 

Q. Is there a temperance movement in Ireland now? A. Yes, 
there is. The British Government wants to keep the public houses 
open, while the Volunteers want to get them closed. When I was 
over there ten years ago there were British officials chasing peopk 
everywhere who were trying to evade the British liquor laws. But 
now they do not. The Volunteers only let them keep open from 
two to five on Sundays. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: But the police would never interfere 
with them if they wanted to keep open longer? A. No, indeed they 
do not. It is only the Volunteers. The police do not care if they 
keep open all the time. 

INFERIOR CHARACTER OF BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q. Chairman Howe: As you observed the Black-and-Tans and 
the police and the military, who were the worst? A. Well, it is 
hard to say. It is all very terrible now. But the Black-and-Tans are 
the worst. The old police are pretty temperate fellows. 

Q. Did they get along well together? A. Indeed they did not. 
When they first brought them into the barracks they had regular 
pitched battles there. 

Q. You mean the Royal Irish Constabulary? A. No, the Black- 
and-Tans? 

ALL BUT A HALF-DOZEN HOUSES INJURED 

Q. Chairman Howe: How many houses are injured in Queens- 
town? A. Almost every house. I do not suppose there would be 
a half dozen that were not smashed up or injured in some way. 



696 

Q. You mean every house? A. Yes. As I walked through the 
streets I could scarcely find a house where the windows were not 
broken. And it does no good to replace them, because they would 
only be broken again. 

Q. Private as well as business houses? A. Private houses and 
public houses, yes. 

Q. Does that mean the houses of Unionists as well as the others? 
A. There are no Unionists. 

ENGLISH OFFER REWARDS TO INFORMERS 

Q. Are there any informers there? A. Oh, yes, there are some 
informers there. They find out about them when they raid the mails. 

Q. Major Newman: Who raids the mails? A. The Volunteers 
as well as the other people. They are raiding the mails all the 
time. There was one fellow called Rushbrook. About thirty sol- 
diers were taking the mails from Cork to Queenstown station, and 
the Volunteers raided them and took the mail bags away. And they 
found one spy who was getting thirty pounds for sending informa- 
tion. And then at night there were police going around with rubber 
soles on their shoes and slipping circulars under the doors offering 
rewards for giving information. They put them under the doors 
at night while the people are in bed. They can give their own 
private code, and if the information proves satisfactory, then they 
are paid for it. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Have you one of those circulars? A. I 
haven't one with me. I am sorry, but I think I can send it to you. 

A SINN FEIN COURT IN SESSION 

Q. Did you ever see a Sinn Fein court in session? Have you 
ever attended one? A. Yes, yes. Some people found in the river 
near the passage two stolen trunks which belonged to emigrants, 
and they went to the Volunteers to find out who stole them. 

Q. Who presided, — a judge presided? A. Yes, there was. 

Q. Who was he? A. He was a sergeant in the Volunteers. 

Q. How was he selected? A. He was sitting down there, and 
was just asked to take charge, as far as I could see. 

Q. Was there a jury? A. Yes, there was. 

Q. How were they selected? A. They got them from those 
there. 

Q. Were there any lawyers? A. No, I don't think so. 

Senator Norris: They probably got justice then. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did they find the trunks? A. Yes, they 
did. They found them down near White Point. 

Q. And did they find the people who stole them? A. They did. 



697 

Q. And what sentence did they get? A. They were sent to an 
unknown destination. 

Q. Is that the general penalty? A. Well, it might be worse if 
the offense is worse. 

Q. But the usual punishment is social ostracism? A. Yes, they 
are not allowed to remain in the community. They are taken away. 

Q. The people do not go into the British court? A. No, they 
do not. If there is any money due people over there, they give the 
case in to the Sinn Fein courts, and they collect the money for them. 

Q. And the people know who the officers of the Sinn Fein courts 
are? A. Yes, they do. 

Q. Do the British authorities know who they are? A. Indeed 
they do. They are after them all the time. 

Q. And the people do obey the courts, do they? A. They do 
obey the Volunteers. If they are told to shut up their public houses, 
they do shut up. 

Q. And what happens if they do not obey? A. They get what 
is coming to them. 

Q. And do you know what is coming to them? A. I don't 
know everything. 

Q. Major Newman: And are the people allowed to come back 
at the end of their time, — the people who are sent away? A. Yes, 
they do. 

Q. How long is the sentence? A. They do not know. Nobody 
knows that. When they ought to come back they are brought back. 

Chairman Howe: This is the most ideal system of jurisprudence 
that I know anything about. 

Q. Do the officials of the court get paid? A. No, not in the 
local courts. 

Q. Is there very much litigation in these courts? Do they sit 
almost continually? A. \es, they do. But they cannot have it in 
the same place. They have to hold the court in different places. 
They met in a club house when I saw them. 

Q. Do the British authorities raid these courts? A. They do. 
They do. At nights, before the soldiers come along, the Volunteers 
go around and arrest men who are not sober. 

Q. Major Newman: You saw them doing that? A. Yes, I saw 
them. They took them into the old school house, — the old national 
school. I saw a couple of fellows being taken in there, taken on 
the "frogs' march" to the school. 

PEOPLE REFUSE TO PAY ENGLISH TAXES 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Do the people pay any taxes in Queens- 
town now? A. Well, they refuse to pay taxes to the British Gov- 
ernment until their property is fixed up. 



698 

Q. Do they pay taxes to the Sinn Fein Government? A. Well, 
they pay taxes to the Sinn Fein courts if they are assessed against 
them. 

Q. But they have no rates, no regular revenue? A. No, I don't 
think so. In fact, I heard them say they would not pay any more 
rates until their property was fixed up again. 

Q. So the political life in Queenslown is voluntary? A. Yes, 
not only in Queenstown, but all over Ireland. 

DESTRUCTION UNIVERSAL THROUGHOUT 
IRELAND 

Q. And this picture of Queenstown is general, is it? A. Yes, 
there is not a village that is not like it throughout Ireland. 

Q. Throughout Ireland? A. Yes, throughout Ireland. Prop- 
erty and the farms are just going to the ground. They are just 
trying to starve the people. They will have a terrible winter. 

Chairman Howe: I thank you very much indeed. And if you can 
send any of the printed material that you have, please send it to 
Mr. Manly. 

The Witness: If I can find that document, I will send it. 

Mr. Manly: If you have any other printed documents about 
Queenstown, please send them on. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



TESTIMONY OF JOHN CHARLES CLARKE 

Q. Mr. Manly: Your name is John Charles Clarke? A. Yes. 

Q. And you are living now temporarily with Mrs. Mohan at the 
same address, — Corona, Long Island? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where were you born, Mr. Clarke? A. I was born in 
Ireland. 

Q. How old were you when you left Ireland? A. Twenty years. 

Q. Were you educated there, Mr. Clarke? A. Yes, in the Chris- 
tian Brothers' School, Monaghan, County Armagh. 

Q. When did you come to the United States? A. September. 
1903. 

Q. Are you an American citizen? A. I am. 

Q. When did you become an American citizen? A. In 1909. 

Q. What has been the general character of your employment, 
without giving all the places that you have been employed, in the 
United States? A. I worked in the White Sewing Machine Com- 
pany as an assembler for seven years. I worked as a chauffeur, 
and then as an inspector of munitions. I am now working as a 
watchman on the pier of the Erie Railroad in the State of New 
Jersey. 

Q. When did you go to Ireland last? A. I sailed from New 
York on September 15th, and arrived in Ireland September 26th. 

Q. This year? A. This year. 

Q. What was the purpose of your visit? A. I buried my wife, 
and I have a boy seven years old, and I wanted to take him to my 
people, who reside in Queenstown. 

Q. You were living with your father-in-law in Cork? A. In 
Queenstown. Yes, I did. I lived with him for part of the time that 
I was there. 

Q. And where else did you live? A. I lived with Mrs. Mohan's 
mother, who is my aunt also. 

Q. Why were you asked to live with them? A. After Mrs. 
Mohan left, her mother has heart trouble and is very nervous, and 
she thought that because I was an American citizen I would be some 
protection to her. Of course I would leave during the clay, but I 
would stay up there with Mrs. Millwood — that was her name — 
during the night. 

Q. Major Newman: This was in Queenstown? A. In Queens- 
town, yes. 

Q. And you left there on what date? A. I sailed from there 
on the Carmania on December 12th, and I arrived here last Monday. 



699 



700 

DRUNKEN OFFICERS RUN AMUCK 

Q. Mr. Manly : Were you in Cork soon after you arrived in 
Queenstown? A. I was. I went to Cork on the following Satur- 
day. I arrived on Sunday, and went to Cork on the following 
Saturday afternoon. 

Q. Whom were you accompanied by? A. My father-in-law 
and my brother-in-law. 

Q. Tell what you saw that afternoon. A. I was walking along 
Patrick Street, which is the main thoroughfare of the city, and we 
were walking up to Lipton's tea store, which is a very large store 
there, and saw quite a crowd assembled around the door. We were 
on the opposite side of the street. There was a young man standing 
there, and I asked him what seemed to be the trouble. He said there 
were a couple of Black-and-Tans who went into Lipton's, and they 
seemed to be intoxicated. My father-in-law's wife is in the habit 
of going into Lipton's to do some shopping, and he said, "I hope the 
Missus is not there." And I said, "I will go over and see if she is 
in there." And I got about half-way across the street when I saw 
the crowd begin to scatter. I saw these two men in the R. I. C. 
uniform come to the door and fire a shot; and I saw a boy up the 
street a little way fall. He was only a lad, about seventeen years old. 

Q. Major Newman: Were these Black-and-Tans or Royal Irish 
Constabulary? A. I could not really say, because I was not ac- 
quainted with the uniforms. So I ran back to the store, which was 
a jewelry store, where I had left the folks. There were a number 
of women in there, and one of them fainted. And I heard another 
shot ring out, and a pane of glass go right next to where we were. 
Then I saw four police officers in R. I. C. uniform go through the 
crowd and escort the other two out of there. Those two were hor- 
ribly drunk, going through the streets swearing and yelling. What 
they said I could not hear. 

Q. Who did the shooting? A. Those two police officers who 
were intoxicated. 

Q. Mr. Manly: They were put under arrest, were they? A. 
That I could not say," but they were escorted out of there by those 
four other police officers. It might have been for protection they 
took them out of there as well as anything else. 

Q. But they were escorted away? A. Escorted away, yes. 

Q. Did you hear of any court-martial or any inquiry about this? 
A. No, I never heard of any. There was just a small announcement 
in the paper telling about it the following day. 

Q. If there had been a notice of a military inquiry you would 
have heard about it? A. Yes, without doubt; because I followed 
up the papers very closely while I was there. I had nothing else 
to do. 



701 

Q. And you say that these two men who did the shooting were 
intoxicated? A. Oh, positively; hardly able to walk. 

Q. Hardly able to walk? A. Yes. 

Q. Major Newman: This seventeen-year-old boy, did he die? 
A. I could not say. He was taken away by his partner, and we 
saw the ambulance come, and it might have been for him. We could 
not see, because the crowd scattered in all directions. 

BISHOPS' GRAVES VIOLATED IN RAID FOR ARMS 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were you in Queenstown when the Cathedral was 
raided? A. I was. 

Q. Did you see it raided? A. I did. 

Q. What date was it? A. I could not really say. 

Q. Approximately what was the date? A. It would be around 
the 20th or 21st of November. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Was it on Sunday? A. No, it was on a 
week-day. 

Q. Mr. Manly: At what time of the day? A. Around nine 
o'clock A. M. 

Q. How did you happen to be in that vicinity? A. Well, it is 
only just three blocks from Mrs. Millwood's house. 

Q. Who is Mrs. Millwood? A. That is the lady I was stopping 
with during the night, this 'Mrs. Mohan's mother. I was leaving 
there and going down to my people, and I had to pass the Cathedral. 
And a block from there I was stopped by a constable whom I knew, 
— his name was Constable Darcy. 

Q. How did you happen to know him? A. Well, I had to 
report to the police when I got there, and I met him, and I had 
quite a conversation with him when he found out that I was a police 
officer here. 

Q. What was your conversation with him? A. He said I could 
not go further down the street. And I asked why. And he said, 
"We are going to have a raid on the Cathedral." And I said, 
"Who?" And he said, "The District Inspector." 

Q. Do you know the name of this District Inspector? A. Yes, 
I do. It was District Inspector Davies. And I said, "What is the 
idea?" And he said, "I don't know. I am a Catholic, and hate to 
see it; but it's orders. It looks like this D. I. is going to run amuck." 
Well, I stayed there for a few minutes. Of course, I did not want 
to be seen talking to that police on the streets, because people would 
think you were giving them information. So I did want to get away 
as soon as possible. I saw the sexton of the church in company 
with three men in plain clothes, one of whom I found out to be the 
district inspector, coming down to open the gate that leads under 
the cathedral where the bishops' graves are. They went into this 



702 

passageway; and that is all I could see about it at this time. After- 
wards I was told by a particular friend of mine who knew what 
happened in there that they took the tombstones off the bishops' 
graves and also looked into the coffins. And I said to my friend, 
""'What the dickens were they doing that for?" And he said they 
were looking for arms and ammunition. They believed arms and 
ammunition were stored there. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was this published in the newspapers? A. No, 
it was not. 

Q. Were you given any reason for its not being published? A. 
Yes, I was. I have a very particular friend there, a priest, and I 
was talking about it later with him, and I said, "You had a terrible 
raid here." He said, "Yes, it was, but we had to keep that quiet." 
I said, "Why?" And he said, "Because the people here would not 
stand for it if they knew about it. To think of their coming here 
and opening up the bishops' graves and looking into the coffins for 
ammunition." He said, "Lots of people asked us about it, and we 
said they just gave us a general inspection of the Cathedral and 
looked around the place. But we did not tell them they took the 
tombstones off and looked in the bishops' coffins." So that was the 
reason for keeping it quiet. 

Q. Senator Norris: Do you know whether they found anything? 
A. No, absolutely nothing. 

IRISH LEADERS RESTRAIN PEOPLE FROM 
RETALIATION 

Q. Major Newman: In other words, the authorities of the church 
feared that if the Irish people knew that, it would have angered 
them to the point where they would have attacked the British forces 
in reprisals? A. That is so. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What did you learn over there as to the policy 
of the Republican forces to prevent a general rising? A. Well, 
what you call the Republican Army over there, you get no informa- 
tion out of it. They dare not give out their opinions except they 
go and speak to their superior officer. 

Q. The point I was getting at was, is the general influence of the 
clergy and the city officials and other leaders of the people there 
used to quiet the people and prevent them from taking aggressive 
action because of these atrocities? A. No, sir; they do not have 
to do that, sir. I don't think the Republican Army would start any- 
thing like that except they counselled with their leaders and the 
priests. 

Q. The point I was after, in this particular case they took pre- 
cautions that this should not become known to the people generally 
because they feared a general uprising. Do you know whether that 



703 

is a matter of general policy, of keeping facts which might inflame 
the people and bring about a general uprising in which there would 
be an open conflict between the troops and the people? A. Yes, no 
doubt there would be an open conflict, I should say, if the people 
knew that was done in the Cathedral. 

Q. And as it is, the authorities are trying to prevent an open 
conflict? A. Yes, the authorities are preventing an open conflict. 

REPEATED RAIDS ON MILLWOOD HOME 

Q. Were you present at any of the raids during the time you 
were in Ireland? A. I was. 

Q. How many were there in all when you were present? A. I 
was in four of them. There was one of the raids, though, that Mrs. 
Mohan just related about. That was on the morning, I think, of the 
first of November, a Sunday morning. I was in three other raids 
after she left there that took place in her father's house. 

Q. Senator Norris: Now, describe them briefly. Tell what hap- 
pened. A. The first raid there happened to be about 1:30 A. M. 
We went to bed about one o'clock. I was just falling into a little 
doze, and I heard them knock at the hall door. I was sleeping one 
flight up, and the rest of the family was sleeping two flights up. I 
heard the knock, and as I was opening the window to hear whom 
it might be, I heard Mr. Millwood opening the window above and 
asking, "Who is there?" And they said, "Police. Open up!" And 
I got partly dressed then, and Mr. Millwood came along, and two 
young men looking to be about twenty-five years old in civilian 
clothes, and after them five or six officers in police uniform. The 
district inspector did not speak to me, but this Sergeant Driscoll 
knew me. 

Q. Major Newman: Who was this district inspector? A. Dis- 
trict Inspector Davies, a little fellow about twenty-five years of age. 
Sergeant Driscoll and one of the other fellows called to me, and he 
said, "What are you doing here?" And I said, "My aunt, Mrs. 
Millwood, is not feeling very well, and I am staying here." And 
Sergeant Driscoll called the D. I. away and talked to him. And! 
then he said, "Well, seeing that you are a police officer, I guess you: 
can take care of the place." And he said, "Good night," and went 
out. 

Q. Senator Norris: Did they destroy any property there? A. 
No, absolutely nothing. They did not touch a thing. 

Q. This was a police raid? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly: And the next was a military raid? A. Yes, by 
the Cameron Highlanders. 

Q. Major Newman: Just a moment. That first raid that you 
described, did they give any reason for coming to the house? A. 



704 

Yes, Mrs. Millwood was kind of upset, and she said, "What do you 
want here?" And the D. I. said, "We want your boys." And she 
explained that they were very good boys, and only twenty and 
twenty-one years old, and she said, "Why do you want them?" And 
he said, "Well, we want them." And that was all we learned of the 
purpose of the raid. 

Q. Senator Norris: Go on with the second raid. A. There was 
a knock at the door, and the answer was given by Mr. Millwood's 
daughter. And she said, "What do you want?" And they said, 
"Soldiers. Open!" And I got out to the dining room and was 
confronted by a Cameron Highlander officer, and he told me to 
throw up my hands. 

Q. Major Newman: This was a Cameron officer? A. Yes, a 
Cameron officer. 

Q. What grade, do you know? A. No, I do not know, because 
they all dress alike. I told him I was an American citizen, and 
showed him my passport. 

Q. Senator Norris: You showed him your passport? A. Yes, I 
did, and showed him I was a police officer commissioned by the State 
of New Jersey. And I said, "What do you want?" And he said, 
"I am looking for ammunition." And he looked in all the drawers, 
and lifted up the table cloth. And then they went up to the next 
story, and tore everything out of the drawers, and all the bed clothes 
off the beds, and left everything lying around the floor. And Mrs. 
Millwood said, "What are you looking for?" There were two offi- 
cers upstairs while one was searching me. And they said, "We are 
looking for your boys. Where are they?" And she said, "They 
are not at home. What are you hunting them for? They are good 
boys, and it is a shame for them to be going around the country 
wild." And the officer said, "I am not a bit satisfied." And when 
they left I went upstairs. I heard him say, "I am not a bit satis- 
fied." His meaning for that I could not see, but I suppose it was 
because he could not find anything at the place, either in the way 
of ammunition or the boys. They did not break anything or damage 
anything to any extent except to tear out books and things from the 
writing desks and closets, — tore them out and left them on the floor; 
and also the bed clothes and linen. I saw that myself after the 
raid was finished. 

Q. Major Newman: They did not find anything in the way of 
ammunition? A. Oh, no, absolutely nothing. 

Q. Senator Norris: Tell about the next one, then. A. The next 
one was about three o'clock in the afternoon. It was nothing. They 
just came into the store and looked around and wanted to know 
if the Millwood boys were around. They did not do much tearing 
or disturbing of the house. They just wanted the boys. 

Q. Who did that? A. The police. The next raid happened 



705 

about a week later, on Saturday night at ten o'clock. I was sitting 
upstairs in the dining room, which is just above the store. We could 
tell by the heavy tramping downstairs that there were soldiers there, 
and the girl said, "Charlie, there are the Camerons." I heard glass 
smashing, and went to the stairs, and got only half way down the 
stairs when I was stopped by a Cameron private who said, "Put them 
up!" And I put them up and said, "I would like to get into the 
store." And he said, "I can't let you." And I met an officer, and 
he said, "Keep them up." So I kept them up, and the officer lined 
me up alongside of another man and started to search me. 

Q. Who was the other man? A. A customer. 

Q. Was the store open? A. Yes, it was. And I said, "I am an 
American citizen." And he said that made no difference. I was 
not afraid, because I knew he couldn't do anything to me. He 
made a very thorough search of me. He even took out my match 
box and looked into it. And I said, "What is the matter, officer? 
Do you want me to strike a match for you?" And he said, "No." 
And I said, "Can I put them down?" And he said, "No, keep them 
up." There was a little Highlander about fifteen years old with a 
gun larger than himself who was standing by us. I stuck on there. 
All the customers were ordered out of the store. I should say that 
there were at least twenty or thirty in the store, and a hundred out- 
side. Everybody was lined up and searched, until the officers were 
satisfied they did not want them and let them go. To some of them 
they would say, "I don't know whether we want you or not, — 
whether you are on the Black List." And they would stick them 
into the lorries and say, "Get in," and give them a drive around the 
city and take them up to the court and keep them for several days. 
Well, I went out after it was over, and noticed that the pane of glass 
was broken, and I said to Mr. Millwood, "What is the matter here?" 
And he said, "I heard a knock and thought it was a customer, and 
before I could get there the officer broke the door in." There was 
a lady there at the time who wanted to have a drink, and instead 
of going into the saloon, she was sitting there by the door. She 
heard the knock, and then the glass broke, and she looked up and 
saw the gun pointed at her, and she fainted. There was a very 
decent officer there, an inferior officer, and he said, "What was done 
here?" And another officer came in and asked Mr. Millwood what 
the damage was; and he told him about the pane of glass. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was that paid for? A. Not while I was there, 
it wasn't paid. 

Q. Was that officer who made the inquiry a superior officer? 
A. He seemed to be, yes. 



706 

WANTONLY BRUTAL ASSAULT AND DESTRUCTION 

Q. Were you on Harbor Row, Queenstown, in December last? 
A. Yes, I was. 

Q. Will you tell what happened there? A. I was down visiting 
a friend of mine in Harbor Row, and I was going back to Mrs. Mill- 
wood's when a woman came running towards me, and she said, "Get 
back, get back!" And I said, "What is the matter?" And she said, 
"The Marines are out." And I saw the crowd coming, and I did 
get back and shut the door and got out of the way in a place there. 

Q. Whose place was it? A. It was Mr. Thomas Mackey's. 

Q. A public bar? A. Yes. Well, when I had hardly got in, — 
there were five men standing there by the door, — when this marine, 
— he was in khaki, what they call a khaki marine, and had a whip 
in his hand — 

Q. Was he intoxicated? A. No, he was not. 

Q. Major Newman: Was he drinking at the bar? A. No, he 
was not. He came in just after I did. There were five men drinking 
at the bar. And he came in with this whip in his hand, and gave 
the first man a wallop over the head. There were two light-colored 
raincoats standing by the door, and they were spattered with blood 
from the blow. There were five men there, and he dropped them 
with one blow each. I went into the back room. And I heard him 
say, "We will get these Irish so-and-sos for killing our men." 

Q. Where was this? A. Queenstown. 

Q. Were there any officers killed there? A. No. But there had 
been in Dublin. 

Q. How far away is Dublin? A. I should say about one hun- 
dred fifty miles. 

Q. Major Newman: But there were no officers killed in Queens- 
town? A. No, none whatever. Well, I went into the back room, 
and Mrs. Mackey was there. And I said, "What is the matter, 
Julia?" (I know her very well.) And this fellow broke the glasses 
on the counter and came in and looked around. And when he went 
out there was a little snug — a little private drinking room, and he 
broke the glass there. And as he went out, there was a canter of 
water on the counter, and he broke that too. He had a little tool 
they call a trench tool, — I never saw one before, — a little black 
instrument about a foot long, sticking out of his hand. He used that 
to smash things up. And after he left the blue marines came along. 

Q. Will you distinguish between the blue marines and the khaki 
marines? A. Well, the blue marines belong to the navy. There 
are forces of the Admiralty in Queenstown Harbor. But these khaki 
marines are guards around Queenstown that belong under the con- 
trol of the army. The blue marines came to the store and said, 
"What happened here?" And Mrs. Mackey said, "There is nobody 



707 

can tell you more than Mr. Clarke," pointing to me. And I told 
this officer, — he seemed to be an officer, — just what had happened, 
as I am telling you. And I told him what had happened and what 
this man said; that he was going to get these Irish so-and-sos for 
killing their officers. 

Q. Major Newman: When this officer came in, these khaki ma- 
rines were there? A. No, no. They were gone. 

Q. How many of them? A. There were five of them there, but 
only one of them did any hitting. 

Q. Senator Norris: But did these five men strike back in any 
way? A. No, they didn't. They couldn't. After he felled the first 
man, the second man put up his arms, and two ran, and the other 
man put up his arms to ward off the blow. And the marine doubled 
up his hands to hit him, and then gave him a blow just across here 
( indicating top of head ) . 

Q. What happened to these five men? A. Oh, they were in 
the hospital for about a week. After these fellows left, some people 
called the ambulance. There was one man from County Clare, and 
there was bad train service; and there were some people coming in 
from Clare in an automobile with some friends from this country 
who were going home, and they drove him into town in this auto- 
mobile. He was quite a stranger there. 

Q. Do you know whether any of these fellows have been pun- 
ished, — any attempt made to arrest them by the blue marines? 
A. No, none at all. 

Q. Mr. Manly: How long before you left Queenstown did this 
occur? A. It was 1 about ten days, — the second of December, and 
I left on the twelfth. 

Q. Senator Norris: As far as you could learn, this was done 
without any cause? A. Yes, without any cause or provocation 
whatever. 

Q. Now, these khaki marines who did this work all left before 
the blue marines came in? A. Yes, they all went out of the store. 

Q. As soon as they had these men all knocked down and the 
glass all destroyed, they left? A. Yes, and they went to another 
store four or five doors further on, the name of which I don't know. 
And the people had bolted it up, — all closed up entirely before they 
came. And they could not get in. But they broke the glass over 
the door, — what they call a panel. 

Q. But they could not get in? A. They could not get in. And 
finally they went away. 

Q. How much time elapsed until they went away? A. About 
ten minutes. 

Q. While this fellow was smashing things up, what did the others 
do? A. They simply stood around and watched him. And they 
all seemed to be perfectly sober. 



708 

DANGEROUS BLACK-AND-TAN SHIFTED ABOUT 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you learn of any police or Black-and-Tans 
being transferred while you were there? A. I did. There was a 
fellow stationed at Haulbowline Island. It is a Government ship- 
yard that repairs Government ships. This Blaek-and-Tan was sta- 
tioned there. My father-in-law is one of the main men over there; 
he is one of the big bosses. And he told me that this man was a 
dangerous man. He was always pulling out a gun. If he saw a cat 
running along, he would pull out his gun and fire at him. He was 
a dangerous man to have around. 

Q. Major Newman: He was a Black-and-Tan? A. Yes. This 
man was so dangerous that the chief had him transferred to Queens- 
town. And at Queenstown I often saw this fellow down about the 
beach, which is the principal part of Queenstown, — I saw him 
around the beach nights in private clothes, drunk and firing shots. 
One night I saw him fire point blank at a marine. And I heard 
afterwards from one of the marines — there are a lot of decent fel- 
lows among them I know — two of them were in there one day and 
they were telling me about this fellow who was fired at reporting 
to his superior officer. And it was only a few days' time after this 
when that Black-and-Tan was transferred back to Haulbowline 
Island. 

REPUBLICAN POLICE PRESERVE PUBLIC SAFETY 

Q. Mr. Manly: Do you know anything about the work of the 
Volunteers and the courts? A. No, I don't know anything about the 
courts, but I mixed in with a lot of Volunteers. 

Q. What was your general opinion of their conduct and service? 
A. As far as I could see, they were a fine, clean-cut lot of men, all 
nice fellows. 

Q. Did you see anything of their police work in preserving 
public safety? A. Yes, I did. I saw them make arrests, — I would 
not say arrests, but taking a man to a place of safety, up to this 
old school. Friday night is a pay night at this shipyard there, and 
some of the men would have a few drinks too many. And any man 
there who was under the influence of liquor, or even showed signs 
of liquor, they would take him up there and let him go home the 
next morning, and tell him it was a shame for them to spend their 
hard-earned money like that in these hard times, instead of taking 
the money home to their wives. I have often heard them come into 
Mr. Millwood's place and tell the fellows to get out of that; that 
their wives needed their money worse than Mr. Millwood did. 

Q. Did you ever hear of their recovering property or anything 
like that? A. I did. There was a boot store at Harbor Row, and 
the owner reported that the store had been broken into, a quantity 



709 

of boots had been stolen from there, and they wanted to get the 
goods baek. The Volunteers got on the track of that, and after an 
hour or so they recovered the shoes, and then got the men who had 
stolen the shoes. They look them to a place called The Beach in 
Harbor Row, and were going to Iry them before a court. They 
were quite young, — twenty or twenty-one years old. But the police 
got wind of it, and just then four R. I. C.'s came in. As soon as 
they saw them, they told these boys to beat it, and they got out of 
there themselves. There were four shots fired, and one of these 
shots burned a hole in an overcoat that this Mrs. Mohan's brother 
was wearing at the time. It was near the harbor, and two of them 
jumped into the harbor, and two of them got into a boat, — this Mrs. 
Mohan's brother and another boy, — it would not do to mention his 
name; and they rowed themselves across to Ahada for safety. 

Q. This case of returning stolen property is not an exception, 
then? The Volunteers were doing work of that kind, were they? 
A. Oh, yes; it was not an exceptional case. But I saw this case. 
I heard of a lot of others, but I am just relating what I saw. 

Q. Major Newman: Do you know what was done to the men 
who stole the property? A. No, I could not really say. Those 
fellows are tried by a Sinn Fein court, and if they are found guilty, 
they are sentenced according to their crime. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Do you know what those sentences are? 
A. Well, they vary. Some of them three months, and some of them 
thirty days. 

Q. Senator Norris: Where are they taken? A. I could not say. 
They call it over there a U. D., that is, an unknown destination. 

Q. Is that because the British officials would not let them im- 
prison them? A. Yes. 

Q. So they have to take them to some place that is unknown to 
the British authorities? A. True. That is it. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Do you know of any case where the British offi- 
cials tried to arrest people who were taken to a U. D.? A. Yes, 
I do. 

Q. Tell about it. A. Well, there were two men who were drunk 
and disorderly, and were sentenced to stay on an island for a certain 
length of time, with just so much to eat and so much to drink. And 
the R. I. C. heard about it, and went to this island to take them off. 
And these men said, "No, we will not be taken off this island. We 
were taken here by our own, and we will not be taken off." 

Q. Senator Norris: So they would not be rescued? A. No, they 
would not be rescued. 

Q. Mr. Manly: That is all, Mr. Howe. 



710 

NINETY PER CENT. OF YOUNG MEN "ON THE RUN" 

Chairman Howe: How many young men of Queenstown are on 
the run? A. I should say 90 per cent, of them. 

Q. And they work during the daytime, do they? A. Some of 
them do and some of them don't. 

Q. And at night time they scatter? A. Yes, they scatter. There 
is, suppose, a family of several boys, some of whom are wanted. 
And if they come and search for one of the boys who is wanted and 
they do not find him, they might take some of the others. 

Q. And they sleep under cover? A. Yes, some of them do. 
But some of them, like Mrs. Mohan said, sleep in the graveyard. 
I have seen them coming out of there myself. And as in the case 
of this Mr. Moore, he took me and showed me his wife's grave, and 
said, "I am going to sleep there on my wife's grave, rain or shine, 
and if they shoot me, I will be there." They are after some of his 
boys. There is not a pane of glass left in his house. 

CONTINUOUS TERRORISM CAUSES NERVOUS 
BREAKDOWNS 

Q. Senator Norris: Do you know of any cases of insanity occur- 
ring among the people because of this tension? A. Yes, I do. 
This man, Mr. Moore, he was really insane. I went up behind him 
and spoke to him, and he jumped like he was shot. And his daugh- 
ter of seventeen, she came over to this country on the Celtic, and she 
is not right. I would not say she is insane, but she is a nervous 
breakdown. 

Q. Is that common among the people of Ireland, among the 
women and children? A. Yes, it is. The women and children are 
terribly nervous. Many of them are nervous wrecks. When they 
hear a raid coming they go to pieces. And the men, a lot of lliem 
are nervous wrecks. 

PURPOSE OF PROMISCUOUS DESTRUCTION TO 
TERRORIZE PEOPLE 

Q. Major Newman: How general is the destruction of property 
in Queenstown? A. Oh, 95 per cent, of the windows in the city 
are broken. There may be a few side streets where it is not done, 
but on the main streets every window is smashed. 

Q. Senator Norris: This is done by the police or the Black-and- 
Tans? A. By both of them. 

Q. Major Newman: I mean, not in one place, but all over? 
A. All over the town. It is a total wreck. 

Q. Senator Norris: But I mean, they do not destroy a house be- 



711 

cause of anybody living in that particular house they want, but just 
to terrorize the people? A. Yes, just to terrorize the people. 

Q. So that they were perfectly promiscuous; they do not care 
whether friend or foe lives in a house? A. Yes, just to put terror 
into the people. It was perfectly promiscuous. 

IRISH HOMES WITHOUT ARMS FOR SELF-DEFENSE 

Q. Now, would^ not this result in these men getting shot? Did 
not people defend themselves and their homes against them? A. 
No, I never heard of any case of it. 

Q. Well, for instance, in this home where you were staying, did 
not they have any revolvers around? A. No, not a one. I never 
heard of it. 

Q. We have had so many of these cases before us, and we do 
not see why they don't shoot these men who break into their homes. 
A. I don't think the Irish people want to do any shooting. They 
are a very quiet-living race, a God-fearing race. 

Q. But it seems to me that a man who has gone through several 
of these raids and thinks he is probably to be killed anyway, and 
that his home will be destroyed, and if he isn't killed, that he is 
likely to go insane, — why doesn't he kill these men? A. Well, the 
Irish people think that when you kill, it is murder, and you are 
breaking one of the Ten Commandments. 

Q. But do not the Irish people feel that they ought to defend 
their homes? A. Yes, but they don't think they can cope with 
England, as big as she is, in that way. And the only thing they are 
looking for now is that some other nation will come along and help 
them; that they are the only white race now that has not been 
helped. 

Q. Yes, but I do not understand why a man would not defend 
himself, knowing it would be death to him anyway. A. But there 
is another thing. Suppose that he was the father of a family; and 
if he killed them, they might kill his family and burn up the place. 
Q. Did you carry a revolver? A. Me? No, indeed I did not. 
Believe me, we were pretty well searched before we got into the 
country. I got into Southampton, and before we came over to Ire- 
land, before we got on the boat, we were searched thoroughly. And 
then before we got off the boat, before we got into Ireland, we were 
searched again thoroughly. They were customs officers, I suppose, 
but they were in plain clothes. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did they search your person or your baggage? 
A. No, they searched everything, my clothing and my baggage. 
One of them even ran his finger between my collar, and I asked him 
if he was looking for Black-and-Tans, and I said if he hunted a 



712 

little further down he might find one. There were women there 
with big trunks. You could not get help. They looked through 
them, too. 

TERRORISM CONFIRMS PEOPLE IN UNYIELDING 
STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM 

Q. Major Newman: What effect has this terrorism had upon 
the Irish people? A. Well, the only thing that they are looking 
forward to, the common opinion of the rich and poor of Ireland, is 
the help that they are going to get from America. 

Q. But I do not mean that exactly- What effect have the hap- 
penings of the last year had upon them? A. They are determined 
to stick to the last. 

Q. Is there any evidence that their spirit is being broken under 
the pressure? A. No, I don't think so. For every one of them 
will tell you that they are there to die for their country, and they 
are going to fight this thing through to the bitter end. 

Q. Is that feeling stronger than it was a year ago? A. Well, 
I was not there a year ago, but the feeling is pretty strong. Every 
day it seems to be stronger, when they read of these raids and kill- 
ings and the like. They have no idea of giving in. 

WOMEN SEARCHED, ROBBED, AND SHOT 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you see any searches of women in Ireland? 
A. I did. 

Q. Can you tell of any of those circumstances? A. Why, yes. 
It was about a week or so before I left. 

Q. Where was this, in Queenstown? A. No, it was in the City 
of Cork. I was up in the City of Cork on business, and was making 
for the train to take me back to Queenstown again. And I was com- 
ing along King Street, — that leads you down to the railroad station. 
And I was along there and heard "Halt!" And I halted. And I 
looked around and saw about eight men in R. I. C. uniform. And 
they said, "Put them up!" And I put them up all right. And I 
told one of those fellows, — he was quite a young fellow, and looked 
to be a Black-and-Tan, and he came over and I said, "I am an Ameri- 
can." He didn't say anything, and went back. Two young ladies 
came along, and he said, "Halt! Put them up." And one of the 
ladies had packages, and she put them down. And this young fel- 
low searched the girl. He searched her outer garments, and then 
opened up her chillies, and lifted up her dress as high as her knees 
and searched her stockings. And the other lady was crying. And 
he said, "Shut up, or I will give you the contents of this," pointing 



713 

to his gun. And he took her rings off her fingers and pulled the 
rings out of her ears. 

Q. Pulled the rings off her fingers? A. Pulled the rings off 
of her fingers. Yes. And tore the earrings out of her ears. 

Q. And you saw them? A. Yes, I was just standing there. 

Q. Did he give them back to her? A. 0, no, he did not. 

Q. And he was a Black- and -Tan? A. I could not really say, 
because they are all dressed in the same uniform now. 

Q. Was that in the day time? A. Yes, it was about five 
o'clock, because I was making for the train. 

Q. Were there many people there? A. 0, yes, many people. 

Q. Major Newman: How did he pull the earrings out of her 
ears? Did he tear her ears? A. Well, he just tore them out like 
this (indicating a grab for the lobe of the ear). 

Q. Did her ears bleed? A. I could not say. And then a mo- 
ment after that there was a shot fired, and I looked around and a 
fellow came along, and he said, "You had better get in, because a 
girl has just been hit by a bullet." 

Q. Senator Norris: One of the same girls? A. No, not the 
same girls. 

Q. Now, who fired that shot? A. I could not say. This fel- 
low told me that the police had fired it, but I did not see it. I could 
not say. She was half sitting there on the curb and half lying there, 
with her head on the sidewalk. There were people coming there, 
and as I had only a few minutes to get my train, I did not stop. 
The Black-and-Tans or the police — whatever they were, seemed to 
have disappeared from there. And as I went on, I heard some more 
reports from over in the direction of Sunday's Well. I got my 
train, and a fellow in the same compartment said, "Did you see 
what happened in Sunday's Well?" And I said, "No, I saw what 
happened in King Street." And he said, "There was another man 
shot in Sunday's Well." And the next day I read in the newspapers 
that a fellow who was deaf was called upon to halt, and did not 
hear, and was shot; and he died. 

Q. Mr. Manly: You heard the shot? A. Yes, I heard the 
shot. And the next day I read about it in the paper. 

Q. But you saw this girl shot yourself? A. Yes, I saw the 
girl shot myself. 

Q. Senator Norris: What was the cause given for that in the 
papers? A. Just an outbreak by the Black-and-Tans. 

Q. And they just break out like that and kill somebody? A. 
Yes, they do. One man told me he saw this: a band of Black-and- 
Tans came down the street, and every window they came to they 
banged in. And they had a little song, "We are the Black-and- 
Tans," telling what they were going to do and all that sort of thing. 
He got along there and knocked at a door to get in. The people 



714 

were flying like sheep ahead of them. It was not safe to be any- 
where near them. And the people in the house opened the door and 
he got in there for safety. When they're out on a raid like that 
your life is in danger if you are on the street. 

NO RETALIATION AGAINST QUEENSTOWN POLICE 

Q. Mr. Manly: Do you know, during the time that you were in 
Queenstown, how many poliee or Black-and-Tans were killed? A. 
In Queenstown? 

Q. Yes, in Queenstown. A. There were none killed at all, or 
none wounded. 

Q. During the whole time that you were there? A. Yes. 

Mr. Manly: That is all. 

FARMS, BARNS, AND HAYSTACKS BURNED 

Q. Senator Norris: Wait a moment; there is something else I 
would like to ask Mr. Clarke while he is here. Mr. Clarke, did you 
travel about over the country and the farming districts? A. I did. 
yes, sir. 

Q. Did you find any evidence of hay or other farm property be- 
ing destroyed? A. I did. 

Q. Tell us about that. A. I motored about a great deal 
throughout the country. That was the only way to go. Sometimes 
I went in a side-car. And on several occasions I saw them, — farms 
and barns and haystacks and beires — where they keep cows, and 
stables, all burned to the ground. There was one place, Carrigto- 
hill, in County Cork, where the man showed us a lot of bones, and 
he said that was all that was left of his cattle. He had thirty cows 
and eighteen pigs and seven horses, — all burned. 

Q. All burned? They were in the stables, were they? A. Yes, 
and they were all burned. 

Q. Did he tell you who did it? A. He didn't really know. 
But he said that the military was around there on a raid, and after 
they left, about five or ten minutes afterward, he smelled smoke, 
and he saw the stack of hay on fire. He tried to extinguish it with 
pails of water, but the hay was so dry that it got headway, and it 
spread and burned everything in the farmyard. His house was quite 
a bit away from the farmyard, so it escaped. 

Q. Major Newman: That was at night? A. No, it was in the 
evening, about six or seven o'clock. 

Q. Chairman Howe: It does not get dark so early as it does 
here? A. No. 

Q. Senator Norris: Was that a general thing? A. It was. It 



715 

was. It was the general thing all over the country to see hay and 
barns burned, — just a stack of ashes. 

Q. Did you see any burning of creameries? A. No. 

Q. Did they burn any homes? A. It is generally barns and 
stables and hay they go after. 

PEOPLE FACING STARVATION 

Q. Chairman Howe: How do the people of Cork get food? A. 
Well, they do not. It is a serious thing. People are starving there. 

Q. Senator Norris: They cannot get food? A. They can't get 
food. It is very serious. 

Q. Chairman Howe: How many towns did you cover? A. 
Well, I could not say. A good many of them. 

Q. How many miles? A. About three thousand miles. 

Q. You did that on motor? A. Most of it on motors. 

Q. And this is the general rule? A. The general rule. 

Q. Senator Norris: Were some parts of the country worse than 
others? A. Well, County Cork, of course, and Tipperary seemed 
to be the worst counties. 

IRELAND "A MASS OF DESTRUCTION" 

Q. Mr. Manly: Could you tell the Commission what counties 
you were in? A. Waterford, Wexford, Cork, Clare, Tipperary, 
and Kerry. 

Q. Senator Norris: Did you go to Balbriggan? A. No, I did 
not go to Balbriggan. 

Q. Chairman Howe: Did you cover a quarter of Ireland, or a 
fifth of it? A. Yes, I covered more than a quarter of Ireland. 

Q. And all that country was devastated in much the same way? 
A. It was. 

Q. Was there any train service? A. Almost none. 

Q. Were there any markets in the towns? A. No, no markets. 

Q. There was no chance for the people to barter in trade? A. 
No, there was not. 

Q. And they were living on just what they chanced to get? A. 
Yes, just what they chanced to get. It is a terrible condition. There 
is a mass of destruction. I could sit here for three weeks, and it 
would not make as much impression on you as if you saw it once 
yourself. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 

PROTESTANTS EXPRESS HORROR AT MURDER OF 
REPUBLICAN PRIEST 

Mr, Manly: Before we adjourn, there is one matter I would like 
to lay before you. This is a copy of the Connacht Tribune of Gal- 



716 

way giving an account of the funeral of Father Griffin, the priest 
who was killed. This is the Connacht Tribune of Saturday, Novem- 
ber 27, 1920, printed in Galway. It contains three letters from 
well-known Protestants, two of whom are Protestant ministers. 

First, the letter from Reverend Canon J. Fleetwood Berry, M. A., 
a Protestant Episcopal rector, who writes: 

"The Rectory, Galway, November 21, 1920. 
"Dear Father Davis: I cannot refrain from writing to you to ex- 
press our deep sympathy with you in your sorrow for the shocking 
and terrible occurrence. I cannot say how horrified and grieved I 
am at Father Griffin's death, and I hasten to write to you how much 
I feel for his relatives and for all who have been associated with 
'him. With deepest sympathy, I remain, 

"Yours sincerely, 

"J. Fleetwood Berry." 

The next is a letter from Reverend R. Francis, M. A., Protestant 
minister, College Road, Galway, who wrote: 

"Dear Father Davis: Please allow me to tell you how horrified 
I feel at the awful tragedy which has overtaken your curate, Father 
Griffin; and also to convey to you my sincere sympathy with you in 
the great loss you have sustained. I did not think it possible that 
such an awful fate could befall a Christian priest in a Christian 
land. Truly, we are living in sad and troublous times, and one 
never knows what is going to happen next. I pray God that this is 
the darkest hour that precedes the dawn, and that our blessed land 
may soon enjoy the blessings of peace and good-will. With my 
heartfelt sympathy, 

"Yours sincerely, 

"R. Francis." 

The last one is from Mr. S. Anderson of Mill Brook House, Gal- 
way, a well-known Presbyterian citizen: 

"Dear Father Davis: If any words of mine can in the least allay 
the sorrow and grief at the loss of your able and respected coad- 
jutor, Father Griffin, I do so with my fullest compassion. No one 
can but view with horror and detestation the wanton and brutal 
murder of a young life so full of promise and usefulness. It must 
be a comfort to you to know that the sympathy of every right-think- 
ing man and woman of ;ill creeds and classes goes out to you and 
those connected with your church. Please convey to Mrs. Griffin 
my sympathy. 

"Very faithfully yours, 

"S. Anderson." 



717 

Chairman Howe: The hearings will adjourn until approximately 
the twelfth of January, and then they will be resumed with three or 
four witnesses from England or Ireland, and a number of other wit- 
nesses. 

Mr. Manly : We will certainly have by that time witnesses from 
Cork with reference to this last big destruction of Cork which took 
place two weeks ago, in which several hundred houses and the whole 
city practically was burned and sacked. 

Chairman Howe: The sessions are adjourned. 12:50 P. M. 



FIFTH HEARINGS ON CONDITION IN IRELAND 

Before the 

AMERICAN COMMISSION OF INQUIRY ON 
CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Session One 



Jane Addams 
Frederic C. Howe 
James H. Maurer 
Oliver P. Newman 
George W. Norris 
Norman Thomas 
David I. Walsh 

L. HoLLINGSWORTH WOOD 

Chai 



\ COMMISSIONERS 



Before the Commission, sitting in the Hotel LaFayette, Washing- 
ton, D. C, Thursday, January 13, 1921. 

Chairman Hollingsworth Wood presiding. 

Chairman Wood: The Commission will please come to order. 
Our first witness is Mr. Donal O'Callaghan, Lord Mayor of Cork, 
who comes at the request of this Commission in answer to our in- 
vitation to tell us of the conditions in Ireland when he left. I would 
like to say to you, Mr. Lord Mayor of Cork, we appreciate very 
much your effort to be with us, and that these hearings are public, 
and we try to make them as free as we can, — we do not desire to 
impede a witness in any way in telling his story. We expect that 
witnesses will confine themselves as much as possible to the 
things they have seen, so that our record will not be encumbered 
with all the unnecessary amount of atmosphere that otherwise it 
would contain. 

TESTIMONY OF LORD MAYOR DONAL 
O'CALLAGHAN 

Q. Chairman Wood: Will you give your full name and ad- 
dress to the stenographer? A. Donal O'Callaghan. 
Q. And you reside? A. I reside at Cork. 
Mr. Michael Francis Doyle (of counsel) : With the permission of 

718 



719 

your honorable Commission, I would like to have the privilege of 
starting the witness. 

Q. Mr. Lord Mayor, in the first place, what is your present ad- 
dress? A. You mean in Cork? 

Q. Yes, sir. A. Douglas Street. 

Q. What is your age? A. I am twenty-nine. 

PUBLIC AND PRIVATE OFFICES HELD BY 
LORD MAYOR 

Q. What is your present occupation? A. At present I am di- 
rector of a shipping agency in Cork. 

Q. What is your public position in Ireland? A. I am Lord 
Mayor of the City of Cork, and Chairman of the Cork County Coun- 
cil. I am also on all the public boards in Cork, the Cork Harbor 
Commissioners, the Cork Technical and Agricultural Committee, the 
City Hospital Board, the Cork Joint Hospital Committee. I am a 
member of the governing body of Cork University College. I am 
chairman of the Gaelic League of Cork, and a member of the Na- 
tional Executive of the Gaelic League in Ireland. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Are those in virtue of your office as Lord 
Mayor? A. Some of them are and some of them are not. By 
virtue of my office of Chairman of the County Council I am entitled 
under British law to a J. P. in the county; and by virtue of my po- 
sition in the city I am entitled to the chief magistracy in the City. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: You say you are Lord Mayor of Cork? A. Yes, 
sir. 

ELECTED BY CITY COUNCIL FOLLOWING DEATH 
OF LORD MAYOR MACSWINEY 

Q. How were you elected? A. On the arrest of the late Lord 
Mayor MacSwiney, I was nominated by him to act as his deputy 
during his imprisonment. I acted in that position up to the time 
of his death and some three or four days after his death. Accord- 
ing to statute, in case of a vacancy of that kind, a new election must 
take place within seven days of the death of the previous occupant. 
That election took place about four days after the death of the late 
Lord Mayor, and at that election I was elected by the members of 
the Council the Lord Mayor. 

Q. You were elected under the statute that provides for the mu- 
nicipal elections? A. Absolutely. 

Q. You say you are Lord Mayor of Cork. Will you be good 
enough, before you proceed with your testimony, that we may bet- 
ter understand the situation, to state the difference between lord 
mayor and mayor, and how many cities of Ireland have lord mayors 
as distinguished from mayors? A. In Ireland the three largest 



720 

cities, Belfast, Dublin, and Cork, elect lord mayors. The remaining 
eight or nine corporations elect mayors. There are only three lord 
mayors, Dublin, Cork, and Belfast. 

With your permission, I would like to explain the full machinery 
of the election of the lord mayor, as apart from the election of the 
lord mayor himself. The corporation which elects the lord mayor 
are elected by popular suffrage in the city, the city being divided 
into wards for the purpose, and each ward electing by ballot a cer- 
tain number of representatives on the Council. The two senior rep- 
resentatives, or the two first returned, are called aldermen. The 
remaining four or five, as the case may be, are called councillors. 
These men are all elected by poular vote, and they in council elect 
one of their number to act as lord mayor. 

ABSENCE OF ANY SENSE OF SECURITY IN 
IRELAND TODAY 

Q. When did you arrive in this country? A. I arrived here, 
roughly, eight or nine days ago. 

Q. Now, Mr. Lord Mayor, you were born in Ireland? A. Yes, 
sir, born in Cork. 

Q. And you are familiar with conditions as they exist in Ire- 
land today? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Will you be good enough to state in a general way what con- 
ditions you observed in Ireland, say during the last four years, be- 
ginning 1916? A. Yes, sir. The one feature which covers the 
general conditions, as covering every-day life, is the absence of any 
sense of security. All through that time raids and arrests have been 
the order. At times the campaign is more intensive than at other 
times. 

Q. Mr. Lord Mayor, can you raise your voice a little so that the 
audience can hear? A. Yes, sir. 

PUBLIC OFFICIALS HARASSED BY DAILY DANGER 

OF ARREST 

Well, at all times there has been for every man connected with 
the national movement, or especially with public administration, 
there has been the daily danger of arrest, irrespective of any charge, 
or, of course, of any crime committed. At various times that cam- 
paign became intensive. There were general round-ups throughout 
the country. In some of these round-ups hundreds of men, and in 
one case as many as three thousand were arrested in the country 
and thrown into jail; kept there for a considerable period, — in that 
case for ten months, without any charge or any trial; with the re- 
sult that all these men who occupy any position which entails that 



721 

danger were always prevented from giving their condensed atten- 
tion to their public duties and to their work in the national move- 
ment, having, as well as trying to continue their work, to seek to 
evade arrest and the possibility of arrest. That, generally, gives 
the atmosphere for these four years that you asked for, wilh the 
qualification that it has become greatly intensified. That is espe- 
cially the case for the past twelve months; and still more especially 
the case for the past six or three months. It has been steadily grow- 
ing worse. During that time there has been no sense of security, 
because, apart from the danger of arrest as far as a particular man 
was concerned, there was the daily or nightly danger to his people, 
of having their homes raided and all their property smashed up and 
wrecked, if not stolen in many cases, as well as being subjected to 
ill-treatment. In some of these cases, when these round-ups took 
place, the men, instead of being imprisoned in Ireland, were de- 
ported to England and kept for quite long periods in detention 
camps, and confined for long periods in England until let out on 
parole. 

BRITISH BEGIN CAMPAIGN OF MURDER OF 
PUBLIC OFFICIALS 

That was generally the state of affairs until early in this past 
year, down, I think, to the time on the night of last Saint Patrick's 
Day, the 17th of March, when, — in the interval, I might explain, in 
January the Republican Party came into power in Cork; they 
manned the city corporation, the county council, and the other pub- 
lic bodies. Immediately subsequent to the coming into power of 
the Republican Party in January, Alderman MacCurtain was elected 
Lord Mayor on the twenty-third of January last. At the time of his 
election he— — - 

Q. Chairman Wood: That was not January last, was it? A. 
January last, yes, sir. For some time previous to his election in 
January, he and several others in Cork and throughout the country 
had been for a considerable time on the run. I remember distinctly 
that the late Lord Mayor MacCurtain arrived in town a few days 
before his election, and remained hidden until his sudden more or 
less dramatic appearance on the day of the election. He counted 
on the fact that if he remained free until the election actually took 
place and until he held the position of Lord Mayor, that he would 
to a certain extent be immune, temporarily at least, from arrest. 
Consequently, after the declaration of office on his election, he re- 
mained in the city and from that time on moved around the city 
pretty well openly and normally. That state of affairs continued 
until Saint Patrick's night last, the seventeenth of March. On that 
night the members of the corporation invited Lord Mayor MacCur- 



722 

tain to a dinner. We held the dinner in one of the city hotels, and 
one of the members of the corporation who left somewhere about 
eleven, Alderman Stockley, who is professor of English Literature 
at Cork University College, — he is a gentleman of somewhere about 
seventy, in or about seventy years of age, essentially quiet, peace- 
ful, intellectual, the last man on earth to injure anything or any- 
body, or wish even to do anything or anybody any harm. The pro- 
fessor lives, or lived at that time, at a pretty far distance from 
Cork. He lived about a mile or a mile and a half from the city. 
And leaving the hotel, — of course all tram service and all means 
of conveyance were over then for the night, he had to walk that 
distance. On his way to his home, he was, without any prelimi- 
naries, without any threats or anything being said to him by his as- 
sailant, he was set upon and fired at. The shot hit him, — at all 
events grazed his clothes; but very fortunately he was uninjured on 
that occasion. That was on the night of Saint Patrick's Day. It 
is important for the reason that I shall presently explain, inasmuch 
as it and the murder of the Lord Mayor, which took place two 
nights afterwards, really marked, I think, the beginning of the 
phase where intimidation and arrests merged into the murder period. 
And I think that the reign of murders and shooting and outrage 
really dates from there. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, when you say it dates from 
there, does that apply, then, to all of Ireland, or principally to 
Cork? A. Well, to Cork principally, sir, but to a large extent to 
Ireland; inasmuch as while there had been before that certain iso- 
lated cases of murder and personal attack, it is since then that mur- 
der and attack have become daily processes, and have become ad- 
mittedly part of the British policy in Ireland. 

Q. You say that began on the night of the 17th of March, 1920? 
A. Well, it was evident after that. I have these dates marked in 
my own mind as far as the beginning of the campaign of murder is 
concerned. 

NIGHTLY RAIDS, LOOTING AND DESTRUCTION 
OF PROPERTY 

Q. Before you go into that situation, I think the Commission 
would like to have general conditions expressed better than they 
have been. What is the general sense of security of property in 
Ireland, say from the beginning of January, 1920, to date? A. 0, 
very little or none, sir. Raids, particularly on business premises, 
have been of daily if not nightly occurrence. In almost every case 
where a raid takes place, the property in the establishment is looted. 
There would be in Cork alone, apart from the premises that have 
been absolutely wiped out by fire, there would be at least, at a 



723 

very moderate estimate, fifty establishments that have been at- 
tacked and looted, though not absolutely destroyed. In some cases 
attempts were made to destroy them, which were unsuccessful. In 
other cases, no attempts were made to destroy them. 

Q. That raiding and looting is conducted by whom? A. It is 
conducted by the forces of the British Crown, mainly by the British 
police force. 

Q. And it exists in all parts of Ireland? A. Yes, in all parts 
of Ireland. 

Q. And have these conditions existed constantly since this period 
commenced? A. 0, yes, yes. 

ASSUMPTION OF ADMINISTRATIVE DUTIES BY 
REPUBLICAN PARTY 

During that period it was that the change took place in general 
administration in Ireland. And the Republican Party, which until 
then had worked more or less quietly as a political party, assumed, 
as a result of the elections which took place in that year, control of 
public administration. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Now, Mr. Lord Mayor, I think it might be well 
to go on and explain in detail just what you mean by that. In the 
first place, what organizations do you refer to? And just what were 
these elections? A. The first election that affected the Republican 
Party in taking charge of administration was the general parlia- 
mentary election which took place in 1918. The effect and useful- 
ness of that was largely negatived by the -fact that while a Repub- 
lican Parliament had been elected, the municipal governments, the 
different administrative boards, — all the public machinery of the 
country, — were not, in many cases, Republican, and had not been 
elected on the Republican ticket. So that the full efficacy of the 
return of the Republican Party to Parliament depended largely 
upon and really had to wait until the election of the local or minor 
bodies, inasmuch as it was only through the local bodies, which 
control taxation to a large extent, that the Republican Government 
could function. 

Q. Will you describe what you mean by the local bodies, and 
what they do, and what part of the government they take the place 
of in Ireland? A. Well, in the case of the cities, the corporations 
do all the work of city management. They levy rates on the citi- 
zens; they collect the rate on the annual estimate for the city ad- 
ministration; they are in charge of the public cleansing, the public 
lighting, the water works, the fire brigade, and all those services. 
They are the ordinary part of the administration of the city. In 
the county, in addition to these, they control, of course, the roads, 
the erection and maintenance of roads and all public utilities, and 



724 

generally all constructive work in the county. The county council, 
of course, levies its own rate on the county, just as the city council 
does on the city. 

Q. Has every county its own county council? A. Every county 
has its own county council, with the exception of Tipperary, where 
there is a division of the county, and they have two county councils. 

Q. Then they have a county council as distinguished from the 
city government? A. Yes, the county council in charge of the 
government of the county, and the city council in charge of the 
government of the city. 

Q. These bodies are elected? A. The bodies themselves are. 
The council or corporation are all elected by the people. And then 
the first meeting after they assemble after election, the chairman or 
the mayor, as the case may be, is elected by the members of the 
council or corporation. 

Q. How often are the elections held? A. Triennially, — every 
three years. 

Q. And they are elected under what statute? A. Under the 
Local Government Act. 

Q. And the last election was held when? A. June of 1920. 

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BODIES DECLARE 
ALLEGIANCE TO THE REPUBLIC 

Q. Senator Norris: You were reaching the point that it was the 
local governments that had to be changed before the Republican 
Parliament could act. Will you take the narrative up from there? 
A. Yes. The power of the Republican Government depended upon 
the local bodies. And consequently all of the work of the Repub- 
lican Government which depended on the local bodies was largely 
suspended until the election of the local bodies came along. These 
took place, as far as cities and the urban councils are concerned, 
not lentil the last of December, 1919. The county council elections 
did not take place until May, and the results were not declared 
until June of 1920. Upon these local elections taking place, the 
public bodies all over Ireland, the vast majority of them, returned 
Republican candidates, and at the first meeting of the new bodies 
resolutions were passed severing connection with the English Local 
Government Board, which until then had maintained connection, on 
behalf of the British Government, with all the local government 
bodies in Ireland, and which exercised a veto over all their trans- 
actions. The minutes, for instance, of every local government body 
had to be submitted to the English Local Government Board. The 
link was really fastened by a system of grants. The Local Govern- 
ment Board gave to every local body a certain grant during the year, 
depending upon the size of the body and the area administered by 



725 

the body, running in some cases to as mueh as one hundred fifty 
thousand pounds. These grants, of course, were slight refunds of 
the moneys extracted through taxation by the 4 English Government, 
being refunded in the aid of local taxation. The new bodies at the 
first meeting severed connection with the Local Government Board 
and pledged their allegiance to Dail Eireann, the Republican Gov- 
ernment. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Was the Local Government Board that you 
speak of the English Local Government Board? A. The English 
Local Government Board, yes. 

Q. There was one for all England and Ireland? A. Yes. 

Q. And men are appointed to it by the Imperial Government? 
A. Yes. That is it. Officials all over Ireland maintained connec- 
tions with the Local Government Board. 

Q. Senator Norris: These officials on the local bodies were all 
nationalists? A. Oh, yes, the great majority of them are. 

Q. And they severed connection with the English Government? 
A. Yes, sir, and pledged allegiance to the Republic of Ireland, and 
declared, as part of the resolution, that all communications which 
heretofore had passed between themselves and the English Local 
Government Board shall henceforth be forwarded to Dail Eireann. 

Q. It was sort of another declaration of independence? A. 
Well, virtually that, of course, as well as a declaration of allegiance 
to the Republican Government. 

Q. How many counties are there in Ireland? A. Thirty-two. 

Q. How many county councils have expressed allegiance to the 
Republican Government of Ireland? A. Twenty-nine. 

Q. And they were the elected county councils at the last general 
election under the statute? A. Yes, sir. 

PROPORTIONAL REPRESENTATION LAW 
DECREASES REPUBLICAN MAJORITY 

I might add that the last elections in Ireland, both the county 
council elections and the city elections — the corporation elections — 
were held under a new system of election laws, under proportional 
representation. The English Government decided that the elections 
in Ireland, and only in Ireland, would be conducted under the sys- 
tem of proportional representation. The system, of course, is as a 
system absolutely fair; and it was immediately agreed to and ac- 
cepted as fair by the Republican authorities, including the president 
of the Republic. But while admitting, as a system, it was absolutely 
fair, inasmuch as it gives to minorities representation to which, of 
course, they are justly entitled, and which they would not have 
secured under the old system, at the same time it was unfortunate, 
from the Republican point of view, for the moment, inasmuch as 



726 

the majority of representatives returned who would have been re- 
turned under the former system of plain voting was much reduced 
by proportional representation. The representation of quite the 
largest part of Ireland would have been absolutely and solely Re- 
publican had the elections taken place under the old system of plain, 
straight representation. But the whole Republican organization, 
following the declaration of its leaders, accepted the new system 
and accepted the fact that minorities are entitled to a representation. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Am I not right in thinking, Mr. Lord 
Mayor, that you made considerable gains in Ulster by this system? 
A. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. I would like to make it plain that 
the system as a system is absolutely fair. But it came along at this 
particular time where the Republican majority would have been 
much larger if it had not been for the new system. 

Q. Senator Norris: If you had had an election like we have 
here, it would have meant that minorities would not have been 
represented, and that with the exception of Ulster, it would have 
been unanimous? A. Absolutely. Absolutely. 

BRITISH ATTACK OFFICIALS AND WITHDRAW 
GRANTS TO PARALYZE LOCAL GOVERNMENT 

Having severed their connection with the English Local Govern- 
ment Board and taken up with the Republican Local Government 
Board, the local bodies in Ireland were faced with considerable 
difficulties. First of all, practically every man who went into the 
administration on these elections was a young man. Of course in 
Ireland, as a result of the Republican movement, we claim that the 
day of the young man has come. And in all these boards and in 
all these bodies, where heretofore possibly young men would not 
have been very numerous, they are now practically entirely manned 
by young men. Well, these men, owing to the circumstances, would 
have needed absolute freedom for application to their duties on 
these administrative bodies to insure success. The fact was that the 
existing scheme, which I have already described, of indiscriminate 
arrests and raids became intensified and became more particularly 
directed against these particular men who had been elected on these 
public boards. The result was that these men who would have 
needed to devote all their time and energy and attention in the first 
place to a study of their duties, and in the second place to the dis- 
charge of them, had simply to do the best they could while trying 
to dodge and avoid the attentions of the forces of the Government. 
The result was that they were not able to give as effective service, 
from the administrative point of view, as they would have. This 
was and still is true, and is being intensified by the fact that the 



727 

English Government, realizing of course that the mere existence and 
function of these public bodies as part of the Republican machinery 
and system of government is one of the most conclusive proofs of 
the solidarity of the country and of its suitability for freedom, have 
deliberately sought out a way in which to prevent these bodies from 
working smoothly and from maintaining the administration of the 
country. The great blow which they struck in that direction was the 
withholding of the grants from the public bodies. They issued a 
ukase withholding all the grants, and consequently, of course, doing 
all they could to torpedo the whole system of public administration 
which they themselves were responsible for erecting. They simply 
notified the public bodies that the money which the public bodies 
were relying on from them, which had been coming on year after 
year and had been included by them in their estimates at the begin- 
ning of the year, would not be paid; and sought in that way to make 
il impossible for the public bodies to function. 

Q. Chairman Wood: You say a ukase. You mean an order? 
A. Yes. purely an order issued to each public body. Well, that 
situation has existed for some time. It is difficult to overcome that. 
The question of dealing with it, of course, will principally arise 
this month or next when the striking of the estimates of the public 
bodies all over Ireland for the new year will come on. Two things, 
of course, would seem to be obviously necessary as ways out of the 
difficulty, one being that the public services will to some extent, at 
the commencement at least, have to' be curtailed; possibly some of 
the administrative services. I hope that this difficulty may be gotten 
over without curtailing the public services, but I am afraid, giving 
my own opinion of the city bodies, I am afraid that curtailment 
will be a necessity. The other thing will be increasing the rates. 
The rates, of course, will have to be increased, because the grants 
have been withdrawn. 

CANCELLATION OF GRANTS INJURES HOSPITALS, 

ASYLUMS, EDUCATION, AND NECESSARY 

PUBLIC SERVICES 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, will you explain what you mean 
by the grants? A. The grants given by the English Government to 
local bodies, which were really a refund of the money in the shape 
of taxes which the English take from the country year after year. 

Q. Now, the purpose of those grants is what? A. To carry on 
public administration. 

Q. It means hospitals? A. Yes, certain grants for hospitals, 
certain grants for roads, certain grants for sanitary purposes, in the 
city for the sanitary fund, and grants for education — technical edu- 
cation—and many other services of that kind. 



728 

Q. For lunatic asylums and poorhouses? A. Yes, and hospitals 
as well. 

Q. Now, they have been withdrawn by the British Government? 
A. They have been withdrawn by the British Government. 

Q. Yes. So that today the appropriations heretofore made by 
the British Government for these grants, for the maintenance of 
hospitals and poorhouses, have been withdrawn? A. That is so. 
The situation arising out of that is just beginning to become effective 
in Cork. Under English law each public body and institution must 
have a bank for its funds. The bank which had been acting as 
treasurer for the Cork union workers had communicated with the 
Board the day before I left Cork that they could not see their way 
clear to honor their checks any more. I, with some other men of 
the city, had an interview with the bank manager, and he went all 
over this ground which I am now trying to make clear to you, this 
danger which threatens administration in Ireland. He dealt with 
the cancellation of these grants by the British Government, and he 
wanted to know, naturally, as a business man, where the deficit was 
going to come from. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: This matter is rather new to Ameri- 
cans, and we are rather anxious for careful information. What 
proportion of the revenues of Cork are derived from these grants, as 
against local taxation or rates? A. The proportion in any case 
would not be very great. In Cork the city administration costs 
roughly about two hundred twenty thousand pounds. The grants in 
the city are fortunately very, very small. They amount only to ten 
thousand. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: You refer to pounds? A. Pounds sterling, not 
dollars. In the counties the situation is much worse, because the 
main grants are for road purposes. Cork is by far the largest 
county in Ireland; consequently Cork County is the largest admin- 
istrative body of Ireland. Cork County covers roughly one-tenth of 
the whole country. In Cork County the grant from the English 
Government was one hundred forty thousand pounds. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Out of what proportion of the total? 
A. The total would be about three hundred fifty thousand. 

Q. Almost half? A. Yes, not quite half. 

Q. You spoke of local taxation or rates. Will you explain to 
us what forms of taxation in Ireland are local and what forms of 
taxation are general? A. The local public body, the corporation 
or county council, in considering its estimate as its estimate of 
expenditure for the year, strikes a rate for the city or the people of 
the county in accordance with the value of their holdings, to make 
a rate which will cover their expenditure for the year. 

Q. Is local taxation on real estate only, or on houses? A. On 
both. 



729 

Q. Is it on personal property, — stocks and bonds and income? 
A. No, not on personal property. On real estate and houses only. 

SURPLUS TAXATION OF TWENTY MILLION 

POUNDS TAKEN FROM IRELAND BY 

BRITISH GOVERNMENT 

Q. What is the form of general taxation? A. In Ireland, as 
far as the British Government is concerned, the only tax collected 
directly is income taxes, — practically the only main tax. 

Q. Do you have also excise taxes? A. Yes, there are a few 
minor taxes. There is the dog tax, for instance, and the excise 
duties. But the main tax collected directly is the income tax, or 
was until a year ago. 

Q. Senator Norris: Now is that where the British Government 
gets this money that it later refunds? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where does it get the balance? A. The balance is indirect. 

Q. The money that the British Government spends as a refund 
all comes from the people of Ireland? A. Yes, it all comes from 
the people of Ireland. 

Q. Now that tax still continues, and the British Government is 
still collecting that tax? A. As far as possible. 

Q. And has ceased to turn any of it back to Ireland? A. 
Quite so. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas : How far has the movement gone to 
impede or refuse to pay the British taxes? How far has that 
movement gone? A. Well, it is, generally speaking, very, very 
difficult for the British Government to collect taxes any more at all. 
The collection of the income tax has practically ceased since last 
Easter. At that time the income tax offices almost all over the 
country were burned out. 

Q. Senator Norris: If the English Government is not collecting, 
naturally you could not expect them to pay. A. Well, that, of 
course, is outside of their local government machinery. Even if they 
never collected an income tax, it would not hurt them to make us a 
little return from our own moneys. For English figures themselves 
show that, even allowing for the expenses of her administration in 
Ireland, an administration which is largely of unnecessary expenses 
in order to maintain her huge army of unnecessary officials, and thus 
to obtain her moral grip, or immoral grip, on the country; in spite 
of all that unnecessary expenditure, her own figures show that, in 
addition to paying all her expenses in Ireland, she still has a huge 
balance to transfer to the Imperial Treasury. Her last balance, 
according to her own figures, is about twentv million. 



730 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Twenty million pounds? A. Twenty 
million pounds. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: These taxes also include all indirect taxation? 
A. Yes, on sugar, tea, and the excise. 

Q. These are still collected? A. They are still collected. 

Q. What is the income tax in Ireland? A. There are two rates, 
the lower rate of three and eight, and the six shilling rate. 

Q. That is six shillings to the pound? A. Six shillings to the 
pound. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: When you mean the expenses of the 
English administration, that includes Belfast and all of the country? 
A. Yes, Belfast and all of the country. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: As I understand it, the English claim 
is that this additional expense is a proper contribution to the Empire 
because of the protection that the Empire gives Ireland. A. Yes, 
yes. 

Q. The Ulster delegation explained that to us, Mr. Lord Mayor. 
A. Yes. It shows that the general view of the English lack of 
humor is not correct. 

ENGLAND WITHDRAWS GRANTS TO CRIPPLE 
SELF-GOVERNMENT 

The reason I deal with this is that England, I am quite sure, is 
awaiting the results of her withdrawal of the grants to see if she 
can get anything that will enable her to make a case, first of all to 
the people of Ireland themselves, and next to the world, to show 
that the Republican administration in Ireland has been a failure; 
to show that the Republicans who have been elected to administer 
the country, have been unable to do so, while she herself has made 
it all but impossible. It is not impossible, for in spite of the diffi- 
culties that she has put in our way, we are getting ahead. But she 
has done everything that she can do to make it possible to say 
afterwards that the Republicans cannot administer their own coun- 
try. I say that now so that, if later on any slight collapse does 
come — I say it here on account of the possibilities of the situation; 
and if that should happen, and England should say that these Re- 
publicans in Ireland are not administering their own country, that 
they have failed to administer it where all the bodies before have 
administered it, — I say this so that you people in America will 
understand. 



731 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Is there any limit to the rates which 
the cities and the county councils can levy? There is in America 
certain limitations. Do you have them, or can you increase your 
rates as far as you like yourselves? A. Well, there are in some of 
the cities, but the county rates are open, and in some of the cities 
the same thing applies. But that question will not arise, because 
the regulation restricting the rate is a British one, and while we have 
so far acted in comity with English regulations and rules, simply 
as a guide and because it obviated the necessity of drafting them 
ourselves, yet when a situation arises where the rates must be ad- 
vanced, and British law says they cannot be advanced, why, we will, 
of course, advance them. We will not be bound by such a restric- 
tion as we would under British law. If we must, we will advance 
them. 

PEOPLE PAY RATES TO REPUBLICAN BODIES 

There is another thing I would like to mention to you in that con- 
nection, and that is that for the past year, while the Republican 
bodies have been in power and administering these public bodies, 
and while England has been carrying on her campaign against 
them and making it impossible to meet, as far as possible, I have 
never, either in regard to the city or the county of Cork, I have 
never heard of one case, one instance, where there has been a re- 
fusal by anybody to pay their rates on the ground that the bodies 
are Republican. The rates have been paid as regularly and as fully 
as they ever have been before. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: In other words, you mean to say that in twenty- 
nine counties of Ireland where the Republican Government is func- 
tioning, that the taxes are paid regularly and wholly by the people 
as much as before? A. Absolutely. 

Q. And those taxes are used for what? A. Purely for local 
purposes. 

Q. What are those purposes? A. Roads, public baths, hos- 
pitals, fire brigades, education, and so on. 

Q. So that Republican officials are carrying out the same duties 
as were carried out prior to the formation of the Republic? A. 0, 
yes, absolutely. 

Q. And the people are paying their taxes the same as before? 
A. Quite. 

Q. And irrespective of political affiliation? A. Absolutely. I 
have never heard, as I said, of one case in the city or county of 
Cork of a refusal to pay rates to Republican bodies. 



732 

REPUBLICAN POLICE AND JUDGES WORK IN 
CONSTANT FEAR OF ARREST 

Q. Chairman Wood: In your mention of these bodies, you made 
no mention of police or law and order functions. They are not 
under the control of the city or county councils? A. No, but I 
was going to say something about it. Under the English regula- 
tions and law, no public body whatever had any control over the 
police force. But since the establishment of the Republican Par- 
liament, and especially since the assumption of administrative con- 
trol by these local bodies, — that has been the period, of course, in 
which the Republic has gradually begun to function in all its de- 
partments, with the result that the police force was got under way, 
and works effectively and efficiently, though of course only to a 
limited extent, because, like every other body in Ireland, in every 
act that they do in the public welfare they are liable to arrest. 
They and the courts have begun to function and have functioned 
for the last twelve months, the great difficulty being the difficulty of 
fixing sittings with any degree of security, especially where there is 
anything like a criminal matter involved, because there is a danger 
of the place of the court's sitting being divulged and the arbitrators 
being arrested. 

SAFETY OF UNARMED DUBLIN POLICE 

Q. Chairman Wood: To return for a moment to the police 
force, we have had testimony here of some police force, either in 
Dublin or Cork, as I recall it, requesting that their firearms be 
taken away, that they be disarmed, and that none of them have been 
shot since that time. Was that a municipal police force? A. That 
was the Dublin Metropolitan Police. 

Q. That was not a local police force? A. No, no, no! It was 
part of the general police force, but it was controlled directly by 
Dublin Castle. 

Q. But the city does not control them? A. 0, no. Although 
they are paid by the Dublin corporation, the Dublin corporation 
has no more control over them than we do in Cork. 

Q. Senator Norris: Who does select them? A. The Govern- 
ment, the British Government. 

Q. Major Newman: Will you tell us about that incident of their 
being disarmed at their own request? A. For a considerable time, 
or for a number of years — two or three years, while the situation 
has been very bad, they had the forces all over Ireland — the police 
forces — turn out for patrol duty and every other duty with rifles 
and revolvers and so forth. And the members of the Dublin Metro- 
politan Police held a meeting (of course, I have no personal knowl- 
edge, as you understand, of this meeting), but at this meeting they 



733 

declared that they considered that the safety of their lives was very 
much endangered by the fact that they carried arms, that it was en- 
tirely due to the fact that they carried arms, and that the carrying 
of arms was not desirable or necessary, that their function as a 
police force should be entirely as a peace force, and that arms were 
not necessary. And they refused on these grounds that they should 
carry arms any more. I don't know how it was, but their demands 
were granted. They go around in Dublin without carrying arms in 
any way, and they have not been molested since then. 

There was a further meeting of the auxiliary force in Dublin. It 
was reported in the press, — I don't know how true it was, but the 
report was that they were protesting on the same grounds, and they 
held a meeting and said they did not see why they should be forced 
to carry military weapons. And a commissioner was sent to inter- 
view them, and listened to them, and said, "Your case will be con- 
sidered, and we will see what we can do in the way of making ar- 
rangements." On this assurance they returned to their work under 
the old conditions, and nothing further was done, for certainly no 
change has been made. 

COMPOSITION OF CROWN FORCES IN IRELAND 

Q. Commissioner Wood: When you speak of the auxiliary po- 
lice what body do you refer to? A. The auxiliary police are a 
special police force created about a year ago, shortly after the end 
of the war. They are a body of ex-officers created into this special 
police force known as the auxiliary police force. They rank as 
sergeants, all of them, and are known as "pound-a-day men" be- 
cause they are paid a pound a day; and they are also known all 
over Ireland as the cadets. 

Q. They are a distinct force, then, from the Black-and-Tans? 
A. Yes, the Black-and-Tans are supposed to be a part of the ordi- 
nary Royal Irish Constabulary, men recruited from England mainly, 
— all but entirely recruited from England. Men who had fought 
in the war and were on for demobilization reenlisted for police ser- 
vice in Ireland. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, what was the force ordinarily 
of the R. I. C. up to, say, three years ago? A. Ten thousand was 
the ordinary rating. 

Q. What is the number today? A. That I could not give you, 
except that I don't think it would be anywhere near that number. 
The old R. I. C. as such was depleted considerably by resignations. 
A great many of them have resigned; and of course, it was to sup- 
ply the vacancies created by these resignations that the Black-and- 
Tans were recruited, as well as, of course, to carry out the particular 
duties that they have since then been carrying out in Ireland, and 
which they could not, I presume, rely on Irishmen to do. 



734 

Q. Are the Royal Irish Constabulary recruited from Irishmen 
today, or Englishmen? A. 0, no, from Englishmen. The R. I. C. 
today is entirely recruited from England. 

UNIONISTS ACKNOWLEDGE REPUBLICAN 
OFFICIALS 

Q. This matter of taxation I want to get clear on the record be- 
cause it is very important. You say that in twenty-nine counties of 
Ireland that are under the Republican Government, 1 that the Union- 
ists in those counties pay taxes to the Republican officials? A. 
Well, of course I am not in a position to give evidence only of my 
own personal knowledge. I know that Cork city and county has 
found in the collection of the rates that no objection has been made 
by anybody. And I also know of no such objection in any other 
county, and I would have seen or heard of it if it had been made. 
I cannot say it on my own personal knowledge, but I feel quite 
sure that it did not take place or I would have heard about it. 

Q. In other words, the Unionists have acknowledged the Repub- 
lican officials in all these twenty-nine counties? A. That is quite 
true, sir, seeing that administration is being carried on as usual. 

EFFICIENT ADMINISTRATION HAMPERED BY 
REPEATED RAIDS AND ARRESTS 

Q. To what extent has this administration been affected by the 
military occupancy? What have you been able to do? A. When 
the Republican Government took over these bodies, there were in 
many of these bodies bad traditions. There was a tradition of ex- 
pcnsiveness, of unnecessary expenditures. And the Republican 
Party went in and made the fact known in advance that they were 
going in not only to carry on the administration along Republican 
lines, but also to effect economies which they felt could be effected 
in the administration. I have no doubt whatever from my own 
knowledge of them that in many cases large economies could be 
effected by the local bodies. Of course even under the circum- 
stances which have obtained, large economies have been effected. 
But if our people were free to meet and deal with these questions 
in the orderly way that they should be dealt with, and give them 
time and attention, a great deal more could be done than has been 
done. For a visit to the city hall by any member of the Republican 
administration, by myself for example, a visit is always made with 
the conscious fear that if I am seen going in, I may be raided within 

1 While 29 county' councils have declared allegiance to the Republican 
Government, they comprise but 28 counties, due to the division of County 
Tipperary into North and South Councils. Hence, there is a total of 33 
county councils in Ireland for the 32 counties. 



735 

five minutes of the time. Apart from the difficulties of it, the fact 
that men in public bodies are in that state of mind has a great deal 
to do with the administration of their public duties, — the feeling 
that you may be raided within five minutes, and watching to see 
when a door is opened or a window is opened. It is impossible, — 
impossible to deal with these matters of technical administration as 
you would otherwise. That is the present difficulty in administra- 
tion. The result is that, to the extent that it has been impossible for 
the Republican officials to supervise these matters, the administra- 
tion is largely in the hands of paid officials. 

LORD MAYOR PERFORMS DUTIES "ON THE RUN" 
Q. Take your own case, have you been able to exercise your 
function as Lord Mayor? A. 0, yes, I have, of course. I have 
been able to preside at a good many meetings, but always under 
these circumstances: for instance, when a meeting of the corporation 
is summoned one night, the meeting may pass off all right; and the 
next time a meeting is summoned, the word gets around that a raid 
is to be made that night, and then the question is to decide on the 
men who will be able to go to the meeting and the men who will 
not. You have to study the men who may in safety go to the meet- 
ing and will not be arrested, and the men who will. In that situa- 
tion I have had to use the city hall as little as possible and spend as 
little of my time as possible there. And it is only there, of course, 
that I could attend to the affairs of the city and look into the details 
of administration. With the exception of that, I have moved around 
the city without a break, excepting possibly a week or two since my 
election as Lord Mayor. While in the city of Cork, of course I 
move around carefully, always keeping a careful look-out for un- 
welcome visitors; and of course at night moving from house to 
house in the way that all men in Ireland connected with the move- 
ment do. Only in this way and to this extent have the aldermen 
been able to attend to their duties and the corporation been able to 
function. Meetings of the corporation have been cancelled owing 
to rumors of arrest, but only in one case has a raid actually taken 
place while the corporation was in session. On that occasion, fortu- 
nately for myself, I happened to be a little late. When I arrived, 
about five minutes after the time, the city hall was already sur- 
rounded and the raid was in progress. So I did not go into the 
meeting, but I remained outside and watched events. On that occa- 
sion the members were all searched, but no one was arrested. They 
were probably looking for a certain gentleman who was not pres- 
ent. 

Q. Senator Norris: Tell us how they searched the members of 
the corporation? A. Why, their pockets were all gone through. 



736 

Q. What reason did they give? A. O, none whatever. There 
is never any reason given for raids in Ireland. Sometimes they 
offer excuses for them. 

DUBLIN COUNCILLORS ARRESTED AND 
IMPRISONED 

That also happened in the Dublin corporation while the cor- 
poration was in session, with the difference that in Dublin a half- 
dozen were arrested, including one of the members of Parliament, 
Alderman Stanes. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, will you be good enough to 
describe the raid that you refer to? A. Yes, sir. The meeting 
was held in the Council Hall of Dublin. The Lord Mayor was pre- 
siding, and the minutes had not yet been signed, when these mili- 
tary officers and men pushed into the council chamber. Some of 
them stood at the door, others went to the side of the hall, and 
others went to the Lord Mayor's desk and asked for the list of 
attendance, interrupting, of course, the proceedings of the corpora- 
tion. They took the list of attendance and went through it, calling 
the names, and as they got to the particular name of each man 
wanted, arresting in the body of the house the man named, until 
they had six men arrested, whom they took off in one of their mili- 
tary cars. I have not seen or heard since what was done with them. 
I presume that there was no charge, that they were turned into one 
of the internment camps which are again being filled in Ireland. 

CORK NINETY-FIVE PER CENT. REPUBLICAN 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Tell us about the last election in 
Cork that was on the proportional representation ballot. How 
many Unionists were elected at that time? A. Two. 

Q. That is, two of the members of the council are Unionists? 
A. Yes. 

Q. What is the population, roughly? A. One hundred thou- 
sand. 

Q. How many of them are Republicans? A. At least 95 per 
cent. 

Q. 95 per cent? A. At least. 

ATTEMPTED MURDER OF CORK ALDERMAN 

If there is no other question that you want to ask on that par- 
ticular thing, I got down to the night of last Saint Patrick's Day, 
when Alderman Professor Stockley was attacked. I have here Al- 
derman Stockley's own deposition, which would perhaps be clearer 
in many ways than my narration of it. (Reading) : 



737 

Sworn Statement of Professor W. F. P. Stockley, Tivoli, Cork 

"On St. Patrick's night, Wednesday, March 17, 1920, I dined with 
the Lord Mayor, Alderman Thomas MacCurtain, in the Metropole 
Hotel, King Street (now MacCurtain St.), Cork. I left at midnight, 
and walked from the hotel to my house at Tivoli, the first station 
down the river toward what was then Queenstown and now Cove. 
There is no train going at this hour, nor tram. The way is a straight 
road, a distance of about two miles. The lower part of this road is 
called Lower Glanmire Road. About half-way out the road leaves the 
town behind ; on the right, going down, is the river, and on the lett 
the railway. . 

"Before I was out of the town, I met a policeman, and with him 
presumably a detective or policeman in plain-clothes. The policeman, 
at least Inspector Swanzy afterward told me, was going home from 
the police-barracks. I walked along on this Lower Glanmire Road. 

"Just as I was out of the town, two men passed me walking quickly 
in the direction I was going, down the river. They were talking loudly, 
and one said to the other, "Then you will have to go home alone," or 
words to that effect. I recollect thinking that the voices had not a 
Cork accent. I noticed nothing further about the men. They could 
have turned off a side road, or could have walked into the railway 
which from that point begins to run parallel to the road to Tivoli. 

"As I walked on I began to hear a rustling noise. I stopped once or 
twice to listen. I thought it was the river. I now think it was some- 
one running along the railway behind the wall dividing the railway 
from the road. As I walked further I noticed in the distance, at a 
curve in the road shaded by trees, a lamp go out, and soon after an- 
other lamp go out, and heard a breaking of glass. I judged the lamp- 
lighter was putting out the lights. But I then noticed that, a little 
further on, at the bridge just before Tivoli, a lamp was still lighting. 
And I had wondered that I had not met the lamp-lighter. 

"By that time I heard a step behind me. (The man must have been 
secreted in a public lavatory I had just passed, after he had jumped 
over the railway wall before he put out the lamps, of which one was 
broken, as I noticed next day.) I looked round, and saw a rather 
tall figure in, I think, a soft hat and a yellow water-proof, walking 
with a firm, trained step, I judged just in my footsteps. I turned 
slightly to the left to let him pass. I had now reached the spot 
darkened by the putting out of the lamps; and the instant he passed 
me, he faced me, his back to Queenstown, and fired from a revolver. 
He paused an instant, between each of the four or five shots, as if to 
place his bullets. One wounded my hand. One barely grazed my 
temple. One went through the waterproof cape I was wearing. I 
did not move. The notion flashed through my mind, that the man 
fired at me because I turned aside; as if, in troublous times, he was 
nervous of my firing at him. Then I had the thought that the man 
was mad. After firing, he turned his back on me, walking on in 
front— showing, of course, that he did not think I was armed, and 
did not mistake me for a police officer, as was suggested at the time 
by some who would fasten the action on one of the people ; — and then 
I spoke, asking what he was doing in thus firing at a passer-by. 
Immediately he turned, and saying nothing — he had not spoken at 
all— he fired the last shot, which went through my coat, waistcoat, 
trousers, and struck a safety pin, over the middle of the stomach, 
which was bruised black and blue. But the bullet did not go into the 
flesh. 

"I reached home at 12 :45 that night. I told no one about the shoot- 
ing. The next day, Thursday, I asked the Lord Mayor if I should 
mention the matter. In the afternoon he made up his mind it was 
better to give an account to the press. I gave it, in the office of the 
Cork Examiner. Two policemen, on Friday morning, came to my 
house and took down my deposition. 



738 

"On that Friday, March 19, about midday, Inspector Swanzy tele- 
phoned that he wished to see me. He came to my house on Friday 
afternoon. He inspected the bullet marks in my clothes. He remarked 
that : 'These fellows are so well organized that it is very hard to get 
at them,' and he repeatedly assured me that I had the whole force of 
the police at my disposal. He asked again and again was there any- 
thing he could do for me, to protect me. And then he advised me 
not to be out of doors later than 9:15 P. M. ; 'That would be 8:15,' 
he remarked, 'soon with summer time.' 

"He also said that he thought the Lord Mayor had been unfair in 
saying, as to this shooting, that morning, that the police were often 
not where they were wanted, in case of need. Inspector Swanzy told 
me that, by midnight, the police would have left the beat down to 
Tivoli. 

"I do not think that the man who fired at me resembled either of 
the men who passed me as I left the town. 

"On the night Friday-Saturday, March 19-20, the Lord Mayor was 
murdered. 

"I swear and affirm that the above testimony is, to the best of my 
knowledge and ability, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, and that same was given by me voluntarily. So help me God ! 

(Signed) "W. F. P. Stockley. 

"Sworn in my presence this 30 day of November, 1920. 

(Signed) "Alfred D. Rahilly." 

I might say that nothing could more clearly or more definitely 
convey to you the kind of man, the type of man that Professor 
Stockley is than the fact that, returning home at one in the morning, 
being faced by a man who fired four or five bullets at him, the only 
action of the Professor was to say to him, "Why do you fire at a 
passer-by like that?" For a time after that, after expressing sym- 
pathy with the poor professor, it was kind of a joke among Re- 
publican circles, because I know there is not another man in the 
island of Ireland who would turn to his assailant and say to him 
like that, "Why do you fire at a passer-by like that?" 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, whom do you think it was 
who fired at Professor Stockley like that? A. 0, I am quite cer- 
tain it was the police. 

Q. This affidavit is one of several you have there? A. One of 
about thirty. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Mr. Lord Mayor, will you let us have that 
to copy? 
i 

LORD MAYOR MACCURTAIN MURDERED BY 
POLICE FOR BRITISH GOVERNMENT 

A. Mr. Doyle: We will turn them all over to you. 

The Witness: This was on the night of St. Patrick's Day last. 
I, with some others, had been on the run at the time. I had been 
called to Cork the day before for the Saint Patrick's Day parade. 
And the day following the attack on Professor Stockley I met the 
Lord Mayor, Lord Mayor MacCurtain. And to my surprise he men- 
tioned this incident of the Professor's, and he mentioned that at the 



739 

same time he had received a threatening letter. And neither he nor 
I attached much importance to it. We felt that it was only a threat, 
and that there was no danger of the threat being put into effect. 
But we had arranged a meeting that night with some of our people 
to discuss the particular situation that was developing along those 
lines. On that night I was not able to attend the meeting, and. as a 
matter of fact the meeting fell through and was rearranged for two 
or three days later. And on that night, two days after Saint Pat- 
rick's Day, on that night the Lord Mayor was murdered in his own 
house. You have had, I understand, the full account of his murder. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Yes, we have had the full account of that. 
But perhaps you have something else to add. A. Yes. I happened 
to meet him that night about eleven o'clock. He was going home. 
I met him on Saint Patrick's Bridge in Cork. His brother-in-law 
was with him at the time. I parted with him not very far from his 
own house, and was awakened the next morning about eight o'clock 
to hear that he had been murdered. In losing Lord Mayor Mac- 
Curtain Cork suffered one of the heaviest losses that it has been 
called upon to suffer. He was one of the leaders of the Republican 
movement in Cork, and he had been a marked success as Lord 
Mayor, especially in executive and administrative lines, during the 
time that he had occupied the post. And in addition, he was one 
of the most lovable of men. He was a man in whom not only his 
own followers but all the people of Cork had not only the utmost 
confidence, — that his ability naturally carried with it; but one of 
the most admirable of men, because, while in the chair or in pri- 
vate life, he was one of the kindest and most sympathetic men 
imaginable. 

Q. Chairman Wood : Did you see on that night any of the sug- 
gestions of preparation that have been testified to as to the stop- 
ping of passers-by on the street? A. No, that was too early. It 
was only about eleven or so. I would like to pay that tribute to 
Lord Mayor MacCurtain because the British Government, not satis- 
fied with murdering him, has also sought to villify his character 
and reputation. 

Q. Major Newman: You say you had been on the run at that 
time? A. I had been, yes, for a short time before that. There was 
a rumor in Cork that a certain number of us were to be arrested, 
and we went off for a month, and I had just returned to the city. 

Q. Chairman Wood: And you were on the council at that time? 
A. Yes. 

Q. And since your election as Lord Mayor you have been on the 
run? A. No. But of course I have been out of the city some of 
the time. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, you are satisfied about who 



740 

murdered Lord Mayor MacCurtain ? A. I am as satisfied as if I 
had seen it with my own eyes that he was murdered hy the police. 
Q. By the police for whom? A. For the British Government, 
of course. 

FOR TWO YEARS UNABLE TO SLEEP AT HOME 

Q. Mr. Lord Mayor, you have stated in answer to Mr. Newman 
that you are able to move about freely in Cork. Do you mean that 
you sleep in your own home? A. No, sir, I have not slept in my 
own home nights for about two years. What I mean is that I have 
been able to move about in the city; because if I had not been Lord 
Mayor, I would have left the city. There have been at least eight 
raids at my house. 

Q. Eight raids within what period of time? A. During the last 
five or six months. But being Lord Mayor, I don't want to leave the 
city. And so I move about the city and lie a little low. I move 
about through the city and dodge about from place to place and be 
careful. 

Q. Explain what you mean by dodging from place to place. 
A. I sleep in a different place each night, but during the day be- 
ing in the city hall and being in the court house, and in that way 
attending to affairs by not being in public in any way or appearing 
any more than possible, — just moving about the streets on a bicycle. 

Q. But you are constantly in danger of arrest? A. 0, yes, 
absolutely. Absolutely. 

MURDER GANG RAIDS ALDERMEN'S HOMES 

Q. Does that condition apply to all the public officials in Ire- 
land? A. It does, sir. Most of the Cork corporation have been 
raided during the past six or seven months. In one case, Alderman 
O'Sullivan, his place has been raided two or three times during the 
past six months. On two occasions his place was smashed in. On 
one occasion when the place was smashed in and they were told he 
was not there, they said, "0, well, we will get him. We will get 
him yet." And in another case, Alderman Coughlan, his place was 
raided by the murder gang. 

Q. What do you call the murder gang? A. It is where a raid 
takes place to murder a man, to shoot him in bed, as it often hap- 
pens. We call that the murder gang, as opposed to a visit to ar- 
rest him and search the house. In this particular case there is no 
doubt but that it was the murder gang; and only the fortunate acci- 
dent that the Alderman was not at home was able to save him. As 
a matter of fact, he was at home but escaped. I have here the dep- 
osition of his wife. (Reading) : 



741 

Sworn Statement of Mrs. Eamon Cough Ian, 19 Pine Street, Cork 

"1 was awakened from my sleep on Saturday morning, 27th No- 
vember, at 4:45 A. M., by very loud banging. I got up. 1 asked, 
'Who is there?' The reply came, 'Open that door!' 1 lowered the 
window and commenced to dress myself, the banging continuing all 
this time. The door was heavily guarded and failed all their efforts 
to smash it in. They then smashed the shutters on the window and 1 
heard the crash of broken glass. 1 heard one of them running up the 
stairs, and stopping outside my bedroom door, he shouted something 
I could not catch. On the 30th October, at 11:40 P. M., a party of 
men who arrived in a motor rang the door bell and were admitted by 
my husband, who is a Sinn Fein Alderman of the Cork Corporation." 
On that occasion the party, numbering three military officers and two 
policemen, searched my bedroom for half an hour, going exhaustively 
into all letters, private and otherwise, found there. A number of sol- 
diers stood guard outside. They were not masked on this occasion. 
From the quick manner in which this raider came to my bedroom, I 
concluded that he must have been one of those who raided the house 
on the 26th October. 

"I said, 'Who's there?' He said nothing, only rushed in, as the 
door stood ajar. He was low-sized, dressed in trench coat, military 
cap pulled down on his eyes, and wearing a black mask over his com- 
plete face, having two slits to see through. He was the height of one 
of the three officers of the previous raid. He said, 'Where is he? I 
only want him for a moment.' He held a revolver in the right hand, 
and a flash lamp in the left. I said, 'Who, and what do you want?' 
His only reply all the time was, 'Where is he. I only want him for a 
moment. Aren't you his wife?' I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'You know 
him. You know where he is. Tell me.' I said, 'He is not here. He 
is away.' He repeated, 'Where is he? I only want him for a mo- 
ment.' I said, 'I don't know. He is away somewhere.' He searched 
under the bed. He then rushed out and searched the other rooms for 
him. He returned and questioned me again, but it was of no avail. 
He then searched the wardrobe and up and down through the house. 

"He came in a third time and said, 'Where does he keep his docu- 
ments ? I want to see them.' I said, T know nothing about them. 
1 never saw any documents with him. If it is invoices you mean, they 
are below in the office.'" (Underneath the house is the wholesale 
shop of the Alderman.) "He then thoroughly searched the drawers 
for them. He found nothing. 

"He then left, the time being then about 5 :20 A. M. I came down 
about five or six minutes later, on hearing some cattle coming along 
the street, and found the window smashed, and the door, which they 
had opened after entering through the window, still open. 

"I found the following goods missing, looted, of course, by his com- 
panions downstairs while the leader was questioning me :— About £20 
to £25 worth of cigarettes; about £7 worth of tobacco; and various 
other things, such as cocoa, etc. 

"No inquiries were made by the British authorities as to the occur- 
rence. The damage done to the shutters and windows is about £10. 

"I solemnly affirm that the foregoing testimony iSj to the best of 
my knowledge and ability, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, and that same was given by me voluntarily. So help me 
God. 

(Signed) "Mrs. Eamon Coughlan. 

"Sworn in my presence this 3d day of December, 1920. 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Domnall O'Ceallacain, 

"Lord Mayor." 

In that case there was no earthly doubt but that the Alderman, if 
he had been there and had been caught there, would have been mur- 



742 

dered. The remainder of the party stayed downstairs and looted 
the shop while one man alone with his drawn revolver went upstairs 
looking for the Alderman. 

EFFECT OF REPEATED RAIDS ON WOMEN AND 
CHILDREN 

Q. Senator Norris: Now, is that a common occurrence in Ire* 
• land? A. Absolutely, sir. 

Q. What effect has that had upon the wives and other members 
of the family? A. It has had a very disastrous effect upon them, 
as far as the perpetual strain on their nerves is concerned. They 
are having a very trying time. But as regards their spirit and de- 
termination, it makes no difference whatever. As a matter of fact, 
I think that the more tyranny and oppression England carries out in 
Ireland, the more determined the people feel. But it is a very try- 
ing time on the women and children of Ireland; though the women 
of Ireland are brave and are able to stand it. 

Q. Major Newman: Was there any particular reason why they 
were looking for this Alderman that you know of? A. No. We 
were trying to find out. I don't think there could have been any 
particular reason, beyond the fact that he was a Republican alder- 
man. The only particular thing is that he had proposed — proposed 
or seconded a resolution of the corporation refusing to submit our 
accounts to audit by the English Local Government Board. That 
was the only thing we could imagine. 

WOMAN DIES OF FRIGHT DURING RAID 

There was a raid which took place about a month or six weeks 
since in another part of the city, in the Drapers' Club and the ad- 
joining premises. In the house next to the Drapers' Club there 
happened to be a Jew family living upstairs, and these people were 
awakened in the small hours of the morning to find some of these 
men in the room with rifles and revolvers. The lady of the house, 
who is something over a middle aged lady, she awoke and received 
such a terrible shock on seeing these men on her floor, and jumped 
to the conclusion that they were there to shoot her husband or her 
son, that she came out of bed and said, "For God's sake, don't 
shoot," and then she fell dead at their feet. That, of course, was 
five or six weeks since. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, following that affidavit, you 
say these raids are made by the military and the police? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. In any case have any raids been made by the Republican 
forces in Ireland on any house in Ireland? A. Not that I know of 
personally. I have no personal knowledge of them. 



743 

Q. Have any been made in Cork? A. There have been raids 
attributed to them. I am not in a position to state whether they were 
or not. 

COUNCILLORS' RESIGNATIONS READY IN CASE OF 

ARREST 

Q. Chairman Wood : How does the Cork Council function when 
you are away? Is some one else selected to preside? A. Yes, at 
the particular meeting. 

Q. And when the Republican members have been weeded out, 
that leaves the Unionists or some other members of the corporation 
to carry on its business? A. That has been done, but it has not 
reached that stage with us yet. The first thing we did after election 
was to sign our resignations. These are lying there, so that if any 
of the members are sentenced to prison or are likely to be detained 
for a considerable time, or if a majority of the council are threat- 
ened, or it is desirable that more men be available for active ser- 
vice, these resignations can always be put in, and other men se- 
lected to fill their places. 

Q. Can the council fill vacancies that would occur? A. In the 
county council, vacancies are filled by the council. In the city 
council, there would be a by-election. 

Q. That by-election would be held by a popular vote? A. Yes, 
a popular vote. 

Q. No obstruction by the military authorities? A. No, not up 
to today. Of course now I don't know what would be done. 

There was one very glaring raid near Cork City. Mr. George 
O'Grady until about six months ago was a justice of the peace; that 
is, he held a commission as justice of the peace under the British 
Government. He is a Protestant gentleman who farms, and his 
wife is a lady who takes and has taken for years a great interest in 
poultry raising. She acts as instructress in poultry breeding over 
County Cork, and she adjudicates at the different exhibitions that 
have been held. In 1913 there was a special prize offered by the 
Poultry World for an examination, and she won the prize, which, 
I think, was a thousand pounds. The raiding of her place was with- 
out any reason. I have never been able to imagine, and neither has 
she, any reason why their place should be raided. Their political 
views might be assumed to be pro-British, because her husband held 
a British commission of justice, and her son fought in the British 
army during the war; and they have never been connected in any 
way with the Republican movement. (Reading) : 



744 

PROTESTANT HOME RAIDED AND ROBBED 

Sworn Testimony of Mrs. George O'Grady, "Norwood," Roches- 
town, County Cork, Concerning the Raiding and Looting of Her 
Home by Police and Military on 29th March, 1920: 

"At 4 A. M. on Saturday, March 20, 1920, our home, Norwood, 
Rochestown, was raided by police and a large number of military. 
My husband got out of bed and opened the door for the raiders. 
I was still in bed when the soldiers rushed into my bedroom. I asked 
them to leave my room. They refused. I got up and proceeded to 
dress myself in their presence. Before I was half dressed I was 
called down by the officers conducting the raid to look at bullets 
which they said they had found in a sack in the hall. I told them 
that such could not be so; that they must have had them put there." 

The Witness: That planting, I might explain, of ammunition 
and seditious documents in the course of these raids, and then the 
alleged discovery of them, is quite a common feature of these raids. 
(Continues reading) : 

"I went upstairs to finish dressing, the three soldiers accompanying 
me all the time. When dressed I came down again, and on demand 
gave them the keys of every place. I was placed in a room with my 
husband, my son (12 years old), my son who had been in the Eng- 
lish army and was still suffering from the effects of his wounds, and 
my little girl aged nine years, who, though sick in bed, had been or- 
dered up. We were then under arrest, and three soldiers guarded the 
door, and two soldiers guarded the windows. 

"At 9 A. M. we were called into the hall, and my husband put under 
arrest. They said they would deal with my eldest son later. Besides 
the bullets mentioned before, the raiders showed us a haversack, a 
revolver case, my husband's field-glasses, and a black satin square 
painted with shamrocks, and having a small satin Sinn Fein flag in a 
corner. 

"I suddenly thought of money which I had on the table by my bed. 
This was money received from sales of eggs, and amounted to sixty- 
three pounds in one pound and ten shilling notes. It was all in a 
registered envelope, contained in a cotton bag. I ran upstairs to get 
it, a soldier accompanying me. It was not there ; and I could hardly 
describe the state of things in the room. I ran downstairs to the offi- 
cer in command of the raiders, still accompanied by the soldier, and 
asked if he knew where the money was. He said he believed such 
was there, but might have fallen on the floor, and directed me to look 
again. I did so, this time alone, but could not find the money. I came 
down and told him I could not find it. An officer seated in the hall 
stuck out his tongue at me. The leader informed me that he was not 
liable for the loss. 

"My husband was then taken away, being refused permission to 
have his breakfast. 

"I then commenced an examination of the rooms. The bag which 
contained my jewelry was open on the floor of my bedroom, and all 
the jewel-cases empty. Over twenty locks on beautiful wardrobes 
and presses had been broken open, notwithstanding that I had given 
the raiders all the keys to open them. My dead mother's wardrobe 



745 

had been broken open, and all her lovely jewelry, which she had given 
me, gone. Valuable vases in the drawing room were broken, and a 
cut glass cake stand and cut glass glasses broken. Subjoined is a 
list of articles taken. We did not receive the slightest thing back: 

"Gold watch and engraved heavy gold chain; old gold heavy flex- 
ible bracelet; solid gold chain bracelet; brooch, gold shield shape, in 
diamonds with emerald in center; gold brooch circle in wreath of 
pearls ; gold brooch bar, about five stones alternately on ruby and 
diamonds ; gold swallow in diamonds ; pearl ear rings ; gold diamond 
cluster ring ; gold diamond ring, five stones ; gold ring, sapphires with 
brilliants; turquoise and pearl ring; gold, pearl and diamond brooch; 
gold pearl pendant ; gold clasped bracelet ; gold chain bracelet ; long 
gold chain (stamped J. Johnson) ; gentleman's gold sleeve-links (C.S. 
O'G.) ; £63 in money; set hand-painted poultry slides for poultry in- 
struction ; drawing certificates ; nursing certificates. 

"It will be remembered that I am the lady who won the ilOOO prize 
for Poultry Industry offered by the Poultry World in 1913. The ex- 
amination, oral and practical, was conducted by American judges, and 
was held in England. Immediately I was offered a big salary to 
undertake the training of pupils in Poultry Farming in a college in 
England. I refused, for I loved my own country best, and stated so 
in a Cork newspaper at the time. I had given all my time to the de- 
velopment of the poultry industry, and I asked the Department of 
Agriculture for Ireland for a post as head of a training college in 
Ireland, but got no offer. Since then I have worked on among the 
people, teaching many, making it my special business to help the in- 
dustry among the cottagers. My work has always been given free 
among them. For it is they who hold the great industry of Ireland. 
At the present time I hold the judging of most of our Irish shows in 
the poultry line. I suppose this is our treatment for working among 
the people late and early, and judging and advising at agricultural 
shows. I suppose it was thought we were doing wrong, but we had 
only the industry at heart. 

"I swear that the foregoing testimony is the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, and that same was given by me volun- 
tarily. So help me God ! 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Mrs. George O'Grady. 

"Sworn in my presence this 4th day of November, 1920. 
(Signed in Gaelic) "Seamus MacGearailt, 

"Chairman, Cove Urban District Council, 

"Cork Harbor Commissioner." 

FREQUENCY OF ROBBERY DURING RAIDS 

Q. Senator Norris: You say nobody could explain why they 
raided that place? A. No, sir. There is nothing that you could 
possibly imagine as a real reason. 

Q. Well, from the list of the property they stole it seems to me 
epiite apparent. A. Yes, but there is no reason that we could 
imagine. 

Q. Bui 1 want to ;isk you. do these follows usually lake properly 
and jewelry? A. 0, yes, robbery during raids is quite frequent. 

There is also a deposition from Mr. O'Grady, but it deals with 
the same incident, and it is not necessary to read it. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: What became of Mr. O'Grady? How long was 
he detained by the police? A. He was detained for three or four 
days, and then he was released without charge or trial. 



746 

Q. In other words, he was put in jail for some days, and then 
was finally released without any charge at all? 

BRITISH OFFICIALS FALSELY DENY THEFT 

A. 0, yes, released unconditionally. In the course of Mr. 
O'Grady's deposition he says,— it was after five days' detention he 
was unconditionally released without trial : 

"On my return home I applied to the Chief Secretary for the Eng- 
lish Government in Ireland; to the General Officer Commanding Eng- 
lish troops in Cork; and to General Macready, and had answers from 
all these denying that anything was touched in the house, and Sir 
Hamar Greenwood had the audacity to inform me that we were 
never placed under arrest in our house, but were treated with the 
greatest courtesy." 

And he also says: 

"I found valuable old furniture damaged, locks broken everywhere, 
some priceless old china wantonly smashed, and the feather pillows 
and coverlets all prodded with bayonets. On giving a description of 
the articles of jewelry stolen to an expert, I found that the value of 
it was at least £400. This, together with the money, £63, taken, and 
damage sustained, would bring our total loss sustained to about £750." 

COMPLICITY OF BRITISH GOVERNMENT IN RAIDS 
PROVED BY OFFICERS IN COMMAND 

Q. Chairman Wood : Mr. Lord Mayor, what evidence is there 
that these raids are conducted by men under the control of officers? 
I notice that Mrs. O'Grady says she spoke to an officer. What is the 
usual experience? Is it generally obvious that officers are in com- 
mand of these raids? A. 0, yes, openly, in uniform. In some 
raids there are police only, and in some raids police and military, 
and in some raids military only. 

Q. And so you think this is connected with the Government pol- 
icy. Have you any evidence of orders received from headquarters 
that the Government is connected with it? A. Orders that these 
men have received to carry on these raids? 

Q. Yes. A. No, I cannot say that I have. Those would be 
private orders. 1 

Q. Major Newman: In most cases these raids are in charge of 
officers? A. Yes, that is true. 

Q. Chairman Wood: What grade of officer? How high an 
officer, do you know, has taken part in these raids? Lieutenants 
and captains? A. Yes, lieutenants and captains. I do not remem- 
ber of any case where there was any higher officer. People raided 



1 The British Labor Commission to Ireland did see such official orders, 
photographic reproductions of which are contained in their Report (Jan., 
1921), pp. 14. 66. 



747 

in many cases know them by their badges, as far as the lieutenants 
and captains are concerned. But these raids take place usually at 
night, and the people are not very observant. 

Q. Yes, that is quite obvious, but I wanted to know if you had 
any definite information. 

HOME AND SHOP OF POOR MAN PLUNDERED 

A. Yes. These raids are not confined to people like Mrs. 
O'Grady. Even in the poorest houses some little thing is taken, and 
if nothing is taken, very often the people in the house are subjected 
to threats, and very often to man-handling. 

This is the case of a raid on a house in one of the poorest parts of 
Cork. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, before you start that, you say 
the houses of the poor and the houses of the rich are raided. Do 
they make any distinction as far as religion is concerned? A. No, 
not as far as I know. Mr. O'Grady was a Protestant. This is the 
case of a man named Horgan. He has a barber shop apart from 
his residence, and they were both raided. (Reading) : 

Sworn Statement of Timothy Horgan, 19 Kearney's Lane, Cork, Con- 
cerning Raids on and Looting of His Premises by Military on 
29th August, 13th September, and 8th October, 1920: 

"Hearing that my business premises in 16 Kyle Street, Cork, were 
raided by the English military during the early hours of Sunday, 29th 
August, I went there that morning at 9 :30 A. M. I found the door 
broken open, and everything, including the contents of a glass case, 
scattered around the floor. On examination I found the following arti- 
cles missing : All my razors, 30 in number (all of these were of Ger- 
man pre-war make, and 13 of them were never used) ; 3 pair of scissors ; 
£3:15:0 in money; 200 membership cards of the Thomas MacCurtain 
Memorial Band ; 4 pair of boots belonging to the Republican police ; 
2 officers' jackets, used by Australian army, selling in all second-hand 
shops ; 1 fawn overcoat ; 1 lady's silver wristlet watch. 

"I have convincing proof which I can bring forward that the lady's 
watch was afterwards in the possession of an officer of the Staffordshire 
Regiment, stationed in Cork Military Barracks. I complained in writing 
to Headquarters, British Militarv Command, Cork; answer thus: 

•"No. 161/41/A, 

" 'Headquarters 17th Infantry Brigade, Cork, 9th August, 1920. 
" 'Dear Sir : I am directed to acknowledge your letter of the 6th inst. 
and to inform you that your premises were entered under Defence of 
Realm Act, but that none of the articles mentioned by you were taken 
by the search party. Yours faithfully, 

(Signed) "'P. H. O'Dempsey, Captain, 

" 'Staff Captain. \7lh Infantry Brigade. 
" 'Mr. Timothy Horgan, 

" '16 Kyle Street, Cork.' 

"On the 13th September at 1:15 A. M. my house in 19 Kear- 
ney's Lane, Cork, was raided by soldiers of the Staffordshire 
Regimett under the control of an officer. The search lasted 



748 

over an hour, during which time my wife and myself were in 
our bare feet, and only partly dressed. Just as the soldiers were 
commencing to search the house, I told the officer that I had 
been searched before. He said, 'That's the hair-dresser's shop in 
Kyle Street?' I said, 'Yes, and everything I had was looted.' 
He replied, "Nothing like that will happen here.' The sergeant, 
coming on a portrait of Lord Mayor MacCurtain, nicely mounted 
on a background worked With silk and containing the inscrip- 
tion 'Aid. Tomas MacCurtain, First Republican Lord Mayor 
of Cork. Murdered by the R. I. C. on March 20th, 1920,' showed 
it to the officer, who said, 'That's all right. It is only a memento 
of the dead Lord Mayor.' The sergeant stuck his finger through 
the portrait. 

"On one occasion, when feeling faint, my wife attempted to 
go for some milk; she was ordered not to move from where 
she stood. Both of us were refused permission to get our boots. 
The officer knew my name, and claimed I was a commander in 
the local Volunteers. The officer and soldiers were all under the 
influence of drink. When they had departed, I missed the fol- 
lowing: 1 gold bracelet; 1 cloth (which I used at my hair-dressing 
business); some gramaphone records; some razors out of a 
case; and a purse was emptied of a few shillings. 

"On the 8th of October at midnight my house in 19 Kearney's 
Lane was again raided by three officers and 39 men. They in- 
quired of my wife for me, but I was not at home. The follow- 
ing morning, 9th of October, I found the door of my business 
premises, 16 Kyle Street, again broken open. Entering I found 
all the flooring boards pulled up, and sheeting on the wall 
pulled down. Upstairs, the flooring boards were pulled up, and 
some of the wall round the fireplace knocked down. 

"From the constant raids my wife is in an extremely nervous 
condition, and as a consequence she is at present under a doc- 
tor's care. My business was seriously dislocated, and my loss 
alone from the looting on the occasion of the first raid in Kyle 
Street is i57:19:0. 

"I swear by Almighty God that the above testimony is the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and same was 
given by me voluntarily. So help me God! 

(Signed) ''Timothy Horgan. 

"Sworn to in my presence this 2d day of October, 1920. 
(Signed in Gaelic) Seamus MacGearailt, 

"Chairman, Cove Urban District Council, 

"Cork Harbor Commissioner, 

"Cork Poor Law Guardian." 

SUFFERING INFLICTED ON WOMEN BY RAIDS 

Here is an example of what the women in Ireland have to bear, 
about which you asked a few moments ago. This is the poor 
woman's own testimony. (Reading) : 

Sworn Statement of Mrs. T. /{organ, 19 Kearneys Lane, Cork, 
Comeniing a Raid on Her Home by British Crown Forces on 28///, 
October, 1920. 

"I went to bed at 12:45 at my home, 19 Kearney's Lane. Five 
minutes afterwards I heard knocking at the front door. I got 
up and came out towards the door, undressed, as they kept on 
banging away. To my third question as to who was there I re- 



749 

ccived the answer, 'Volunteers,' and 'You have better let us in 
quickly.' I said, 'Give me time to dress.' At this moment the 
door was broken open, and my sister and myself, catching a skirt 
each in our hands, fled out the back door, over a wall into Mrs. 
O'Leary's house, No. 16. We had taken our skirts with us, and 
now put them on. We were only a few minutes there when 
the raiders went to the back and front of all the houses and 
entering, searched seven houses. They were dressed in khaki 
with black capes, some wearing trench-helmets, more black caps, 
all under the charge of an officer who had raided my home on 
the first occasion. He was dressed in khaki, and on this occa- 
sion wore a large white cloth over his mouth as a disguise. He 
entered Mrs. O'Leary's house through the front door, and seeing 
• me, stopped and said, 'Are not you Mrs. Horgan?' Being afraid, 
I replied, 'No. I'm Mrs. Donoghue.' He asked again, sharply, 
and in the same English accent, but I maintained I was Mrs. 
Donoghue. Still not satisfied he questioned Mrs. O'Leary, but 
she corroborated. 

"After searching the other houses, the raiders returned to my 
home. I could hear them shout from outside to the others inside, 
'Bring! Bring! Bring!' As I afterwards found out, this meant 
looting. 

''I then went out into Mrs. O'Leary's yard, and entered Mrs. 
O'Callaghan's yard, No. 17. I saw some raiders standing in her 
hall. They rushed, and I ran back to Mrs. O'Leary's. They 
went to the back to Mrs. Daly's, No. 18, and shouted, 'They're es- 
caping through the back.' The officer replied, 'Shoot! Shoot every- 
thing down you see.' Mrs. Daly cried out from her bed, 'Officer, they 
may be women.' The only reply he gave was, 'I have a bomb 
in my pocket.' I heard the raiders leave about 2:30 A. M. 
About 3 A. M. Mr. Daly came to Mrs. O'Leary's and brought 
me to his house to sleep the night with Mrs. Daly. In Mrs. 
Daly's house I fainted completely, and did not come to my 
senses again until about 8 A. M. I then went home and found 
doors open. In the kitchen and bedroom everything was dragged 
about. An altar in the bedroom was torn down, and various 
china articles were smashed. I found an empty bottle of stout 
on the table which was not in the house when I left. 

"The following articles were missing: 1 lady's golf coat; 2 
waterproof coats; makings of a dress; 1 pair of curtains; 1 tabic 
cloth; 2 pairs of sheets; 2 pairs of pillows; small curtain brushes 
and scissors; 1 small clock; some underclothing; 1 silver mounted 
walking stick, initialed T. H., which my husband had received as 
a present; and £7 in money, and food. Total value, £27. 

"I am too much afraid to sleep at home since, and every time 
I see a soldier I imagine I am going to be attacked. My nerves 
are unstrung as a result of these repeated raids. 1 

"I swear before Almighty God that the foregoing testimony 
is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So 
help me God! 

(Signed) '"Bridget Horgan. 

"Sworn in my presence this 10th day of November, 1920. 
(Signed in Gaelic) "Domnall O'Ceallacain, 

"Lord Mayor of Cork, 
"Chair man, Cork County Council." 

ATTEMPTED RAPE OF GIRL BY RAIDER 

This is a typical night in Cork. These raids sometimes bear other 
features which are still more revolting. I have here the statement 



1 See preceding affidavit by affiant's husband. 



750 

of Miss Ellie Lane of Ballincollig, County Cork, who was in the 
house of her employer during a raid, and who was attacked per- 
sonally by some members of the raiding party. There are rea- 
sons why I prefer not to read it, but I hand in the deposition. It 
is an assault on the girl. 

Mr. Doyle: Just a moment. (Confers with Commissioners.) 

Q. Senator Norris: Will you show us the part that you think is 
objectionable? 

(Witness indicates part.) 

Chairman Wood: The affidavit contains a statement of an attempt 
to seduce a girl, but was not accomplished. It was not accompanied 
by rape. I don't think it is necessary to read it. We will put it 
on our record. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: With reference to the affidavit just mentioned, 
Mr. Lord Mayor, that was an attempted assault by members of the 
British raiding force on a house in Cork City, was it? A. Well, 
just near Cork, — Ballincollig, three or four miles from Cork. 

Q. The deposition was taken by whom? A. The deposition 
was made by Miss Ellie Lane of Ballincollig. 

Q. It was taken under oath? A. Yes, it was taken under oath. 

(Inserted in record by order of the Commission.) 

Sworn Statement of Miss Ellie Lane, Ballincollig, County Cork. 

"I am a maid employed by Mr. B. J. Magner, Ballincollig, and was 
in bed in one of the top rooms the night of 29th September, 1920, when 
the house was forcibly entered and searched by armed, masked men. I 
have a bedroom to myself, and a Miss Maggie O'Connor, who occupies 
the bedroom opening into mine, came into my bed with me, as we were 
frightened. 

"About twelve-thirty A. M. two of the raiders entered my room with- 
out knocking. The bigger one was dressed in trench coat and gray 
tweed cap, and had a black mask over his mouth ; the other was 
dressed in a gray belted coat, and tweed cap, and had his face black- 
ened. The bigger one asked what had brought the girl into my room, 
as he had seen the bed in the other room empty. We replied, 'For 
safc f y.' He ordered both of us up. The smaller fellow blindfolded 
Miss O'Connor and put her out into her own room. The big fellow 
searched my bed, and said he was looking for firearms. He put me 
over against the window, placed the screen over my face, and com- 
menced searching the presses and examining my letters. I put my head 
out and told him they were my letters, and that there was nothing in 
them. The small fellow told me to put in my head, or he would shoot 
me. He had a revolver in his hand. The big fellow then took the 
screen off my face and kissed me in spite of all endeavors to prevent 
him. He tried to force me to go back to bed, and to do so caught 
me by the throat .with his two hands, but I resisted all his efforts suc- 
cessfully. When he saw this, he stopped, and asked me did I know 
of any chap staying in the house named O'Brien, and I said I didn't, 
as I never heard of such a person staying in the house. The two 



751 

then left, and about five minutes afterwards, the big fellow came back 
again to my room. 

'He made me sit down on the bed. I asked him what did he want 
me to do. Was it to assault me? He said no, but that I should get 
back to bed before he would leave. I refused. He then exposed his 
naked person to me, and tried to seduce me by telling me he had plenty 
of money. I told him that I didn't want his money. He then told me 

to come into the Head Office in Cork and ask for Seamus . 1 

told him I would not, but that I would clear out of Ballincollig the first 
moment I saw the daylight. The small chap was in the other girl's 
room all this time, and watching into my room. The other girl was in 
bed, but no harm was done her. He called on the big chap to come 
away. They then left, and about half an hour afterwards Mrs. Magner 
came and told us they were gone. 

"I swear that the foregoing testimony is, to the best of my knowledge 
and ability, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So 
help me God ! 

(Signed) "Ellie Lane. 

"Sworn in my presence this 12th day of November, 1920. 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Seamus MacGearailt, 

"Chairman, Cove Urban Council, 

"Cork Poor Law Guardian." 

Q. Chairman Wood : Referring to this attempt to seduce this 
girl, is there much of what we call sex crime in connection with 
these raids? This is 1 the first testimony that we have had of that 
kind. And we were so accustomed to hearing of sex excess in the 
situation in Belgium that it has been in marked contrast to that. 
And I am wondering if there had been any charge in this connec- 
tion in these raids in the treatment of the Irish people. A. This 
is the only case in which I have gotten a definite deposition, and 
it is the only case of which I know personally in Cork. There have 
been rumors of such cases throughout the country, but I do not 
know whether they are correct or not. I have no particulars about 
them. But I will say that that class of assaults is not very general 
in connection with raids. 



RAIDERS SEEK TO FIND LORD MAYOR 

Speaking of attacks, the attempted murder of Alderman Coughlan 
and the threatened murder of Alderman O'Sullivan and the uneasi- 
ness generally of administrative bodies, I may say that somewhere 
about July, I think, shortly before my appointment as Deputy Lord 
Mayor, there was a shot fired into my house one night, just one 
shot. The house was not raided on that occasion nor attacked. The 
shot came through the front door and passed through the parti- 
tion into the parlor. On the 28th of October last there was a 
member of the City Hall staff in Cork had his home raided about 
two in the morning, and this raid was connected with myself, and, 
of course, is an intimation not only of the things that are happen- 
ing, but what I am really more concerned about trying to convey, 
not so much the special instances as the general and continuing at- 



752 

mosphere connected with these happenings, and under which we 
live. 

Affidavit of Sean Courtney 

This is the sworn deposition of Mr. Sean Courtney, 11 Parnell 
Terrace, Pouladuff, Cork, concerning; a raid by police and military 
on his residence at 2 A. M. on the 28th of October, 1920. (Read- 
ing) : 

"I was awakened at 2 A. M. on the 28th of October, 1920, at my 
residence, Ponladnff, Cork. My wife and myself got up, but before 
I was able to get downstairs I was accosted by a number of military 
officers on the lobby outside our bedroom door. Those of them who 
hadn't moustaches had the upper lip painted black as a disguise. They 
asked me my name, and kept my wife and myself about ten minutes 
standing in the cold, practically naked, answering questions as to why 
I had left my last house and come to live here, etc." (He had been 
living in that particular house only about a week at the time of that 
raid.) 

"He then allowed me to get my trousers on, and ordered me down 
to the kitchen. My wife, in her night-dress still, and myself went 
down to the kitchen, where we found soldiers under the direction of an 
officer tearing up the flooring boards. They emptied the contents of 
various cupboards onto the floor. They then ordered my wife upstairs. 
She refused to go, as military were upstairs in the bedrooms. She 
was eventually compelled to go. 

"An officer picked up a photograph, and in reply to his questioning 
I told him it was a photograph of my little son 9 years old, taken in 
kilts. He thereupon tore it up in bits and hit me across the face with 
them, saying, 'This is another murderer.' 

"He asked was I the man who was employed at the City Hall. I 
replied, 'Yes.' He said, 'You are the fellow who said we stole 
your money.' " 

The Witness: There is a deposition bearing on that. That re- 
fers to a raid that occurred about a week or so previous in the City 
Hall, and in which a sum of money belonging to this man Courtney 
had been stolen, and he had subsequently got into communication 
with the military authorities and complained about it. And that was 
the amount referred to by this officer. Sixty pounds was the amount 
stolen. 

"I said, 'Yes.' He kept cross-examining me on this point, giving 
me the impression that he was a man of law; he admitted having 
raided the City Hall on the occasion under discussion. He asked 
me if I was a loyalist. I said, 'If it is to your Crown, I am not.' 
He said, 'You are a Republican?' I said, 'Yes.' He took a re- 
volver out of his pocket and placed it to my right temple, and 
asked me to tell him where Donal O'Callaghan, this Deputy, 
sleeps at night. I said I didn't know. He called me a liar, and 
stated I did know, and that I knew everything going on at the 
City Hall. He then opened the button of my shirt, and placed the 
muzzle of the revolver against my heart, telling me he was giving 
me five minutes to divulge the information. While the revolver 
was at my heart an officer standing at the corner discharged a 
shot from a revolver. It may or may not have been a blank car- 
tridge, as we cannot yet find the bullet. There was a hearty 
laugh from the officers and soldiers all round at this. It was done 
presumably to frighten me. He pressed me hard for some time 
longer, still keeping the revolver to my heart; being of no avail, 



753 

he caught me by the cars and by the hair of my head, and shook 
me. He kicked me and told me to get upstairs, lie followed and 
demanded where my uniform and pipes were." 

The Witness: This Mr. Courtney was a member of the Piper's 
Band in Cork, and that hand had a distinct uniform. They wore 
kilts, the old Irish dress. 

Q. Chairman Wood: They are connected with the Republican 
Army? A. Yes, sir. ( Continues reading) : 

» "As it was of no use, as I refused to give him the information 
he desired, he ordered me to dress and to come away with them. 
They were about an hour in the house. When dressed and out- 
side the house, 1 noticed a group of officers some ten yards away, 
apparently holding a consultation. A young soldier about 17 or 
18 years took charge of me at this juncture. He placed a rifle 

to my chest and said, 'You b d, if I had my way, you would 

not go in the lorry. I'd finish you now.' 

"On being marched off, this same soldier kept prodding me in 
the spine from behind, as a result of which I am still sore. This 
he did all the way to Greenmount Cross, about 150 yards from 
my house. The party halted there, and the same officer as had 
previously threatened and assaulted me proceeded to start the 
same all over again. His brother officers tapped him on the 
shoulders several times, and apparently asked him to come away. 
He eventually called me to one side from them again, giving me a 
further caution respecting the Republican Army and the Pipers' 
Band, stating that all the people of this country will be mozwi doiim in- 
side another twelve months, as they — the Crown forces — intended to 
finish the business. 1 He then ordered me to get away home. I did so, 
fully expecting to be shot at while so doing, as this has been 
their usual custom under such circumstances. 

"On arriving home, I first found that they had entered by break- 
ing open the door; they must have done this with some strong 
instrument, as there was a double lock and two bolts on it. 
They had taken away the key — for further use presumably. I 
met my wife in the kitchen, still undressed. It was then 4 A. M. 
She appeared quite dazed, and could not speak when I addressed 
her. The kitchen and one back bedroom appeared like refuse 
heaps. The back garden was all dug up, and articles were missing 
which the subjoined list details: 10 knives; 1 silver and pearl bread 
knife; 1 butter-knife; 3 plated spoons; 1 framed photograph of the 
murdered Republican Lord Mayor of Cork, Alderman Tomas Mac- 
Curtain ; 1 2-shilling piece ; 3 ordinary life insurance books ; 1 pound 
of butter; 2 bars of soap; 6 boxes of matches; 1 large box of boot 
polish; 2 ivory-covered prayer-books; 1 pound of sugar; a shilling- 
toy pistol belonging to my young son; 2 pairs of gloves. 

"The party numbered about sixteen men, of whom six were 
dressed in officers' clothes, one having a Glengarry cap and blue 
serge officers' suit with brass buttons. 

"I swear that the above statement is the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, and same was given by me volun- 
tarily. So help me God! 

(Signed) "Sean Courtney. 

"Sworn in my presence this 4th day of November, 1920. 
(Signed in Gaelic) "Seamus MacGearailt, 

"Chairman, Cove Urban District Council, 

"Cork Harbor Commissioner." 



1 The italics are as indicated in the original affidavit. 



754 

RAIDERS ROB CITY HALL OFFICES 

The Witness: The City Hall, of course, has been raided a num- 
ber of times. Every other day there is a raid there. In the 
course of one raid there was some money stolen from one of the 
men, — from the man of whom they wanted to get my address. For 
I might say that on these occasions when a raid takes place on the 
City Hall, all the staff is paraded in the vestibule, and they are all 
stood with their hands up until their pockets are searched. 

Q. Chairman Wood : The building is surrounded by the police 
and the military. A. Yes, yes. I will read the deposition of Mr. 
Sean Courtney concerning the looting of money and articles during 
a raid on the City Hall, the fourteenth of October, 1920. (Reading) : 

Affidavit of Sean Courtney 

"About 11:30 A. M. on the above date, on looking out the 
window of the Waterworks Department, where I am employed as 
a clerk, I saw that the building was surrounded by military and 
police. On the preceding day I had a removal to a new house ; 
consequently whatever money I had at home was transferred to 
my pocket. This money consisted of i22 in notes, including 
one three-pound note; also a green morocco purse with my name 
blocked in gold on it. This was presented to me by my colleagues 
on the Corporation Staff on the occasion of my marriage some 
years ago, and contained fifteen pounds in gold. A receipt for 
a five-pound bail bond was also with the cash. Knowing the repu- 
tation of these raiders as regards robbery, I crossed the hall into 
the City Treasurer's office, where I saw the assistant treasurer 
and another clerk, who in my presence placed the money in the 
safe, which was open. 

"Shortly afterwards the entire staff was ordered by the raiders 
from their offices, and in their absence the offices were looted. My 
money was taken from the Treasurer's open safe, and my own 
office was like a refuse heap when I got back. The following ar- 
ticles were taken from mine and another desk: 1 scissors; 1 brush 
and comb; 1 magnifying glass; 6 dozen brass buttons; approx- 
imately fr/i dozen photo postcards of the Volunteer Band; 1 cap 
badge and 1 arm badge (miniature pipes design); some green rib- 
bon; a green poplin '67' badge, given to me by my late father 
(Rest in Peace); an Agnus Dei, taken from my office coat; a cal- 
endar photo of the late Bishop O'Dwyer; and several small souve- 
nirs and nick-nacks which I kept in my desk. 

"I might add that on Saturday, the 9th inst., my bicycle, coat, 
and several articles, including valuable framed pictures, were de- 
stroyed by the fire in the inspection offices, which was caused by 
bombing, etc., on that morning." 

The Witness: This was one of the many attempts to destroy the 

City Hall before the recent and successful attempt. ( Continues 

reading) : 

"The money that was taken was to be paid out for various 
monthly household goods, and its loss considerably handicapped 
our domestic affairs, as it was all we possessed, owing to the 
difficulty of trying to make ends meet for some years back on a 
small salary. I phoned the military headquarters, Victoria Bar- 
racks, Cork, immediately, of my loss; and soon afterwards, ac- 



755 . 

companied by a friend, I interviewed the two officers who were 
in charge of the raiding party, at Victoria Barracks. They prom- 
ised, to look into the matter, but I have heard nothing since 
from them. The total loss suffered by me for the past fortnight 
amounts to close on sixty pounds. 

"The raiding party was composed of soldiers of the Hampshire 

Regiment, and wore shoulder badges with the inscription 'Hants.' 

"I swear by Almighty God that the foregoing testimony is the 

truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; and that same 

was given by me voluntarily. So help me God! 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Sean O'Cuirinn. 
"Sworn in my presence, dated this 23d day of October, 1920. 
(Signed in Gaelic) "Seamus MacGearailt, 

"Chairman, Cove Urban District Council, 

"Cork Harbour Commissioner, 
"Cork Poor Law Guardian." 

IMPRISONMENT AND DEATH THREAT TO EXTORT 
INFORMATION 

During thai same period one of the members of the staff at the 
City Hall was arrested. This is the sworn statement of Mr. John 
Egar, Clerk in the Highways Department of the City Hall, Cork, 
concerning his arrest and subsequent treatment by the military. 
( Reading) : 

Affidavit of John Egar 

"I am a clerk in the Highways Department, City Hall, Cork, 
and was at my work on 14th October, 1920, in that building. 
During a military raid there I was searched in common with the 
other clerks, and finding on me a ballot ticket for a drawing, the 
prize for which was a .32 revolver and 50 rounds of ammunition, 
they arrested me. This was 11:30 A. M. 

"I was taken in a lorry to Cork Military Barracks, and placed 
in the guard room. When I got out of the lorry a sergeant of 
the Hampshire Regiment wanted to know from me who used to 
be in the City Hall at night, and what was the general run of 
the place. I said I didn't know, and refused to give him any 
information. He said he would give me until the following morn- 
ing to give him what he wanted to know, if I wanted my life 
saved. I still refused, and they placed me in the guard room. 

"He gave me some dirty food that night, stating, 'Take that, 
you b— — , you might not be able to eat it in the morning.' I re- 
fused to touch it. The following morning he repeated the ques- 
tioning and threatening all over again, using filthy language of 
the worst description. A civilian then came in and took my photo- 
graph. I was then placed in a cell in the detention barracks. 

"I was, on 20th October, brought from the cell for trial; on 

my way soldiers from every quarter shouting, 'Shoot the 

rebel,' etc. I refused to recognize the court's jurisdiction to try me. 

"I was kept 14 days in the cell after this, awaiting sentence. 
I was then brought before the Sergeant Major, who told me my 
sentence was to be shot. This was done to extract some state- 
ment from me, believing I would become frightened; but I re- 
fused to state anything. I was then released. 



756 

"I swear that the foregoing testimony is, to the best of my 
knowledge and ability, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but tin- truth, and thai same was given by me voluntarily. So help 
me God ! 

(Signed) "JOHN Egar. 
"Sworn in my presence this 10th day of November, 1920. 
(Signed in Gaelic) "Seamus MacGearailt, 

"Chairman, Cove Urban District Council, 

"Cork Poor Lazv Guardian." 

Q. Mr. Doyle: What was the charge made against him, Mr. Lord 
Mayor? A. The charge made against him was having in his pos- 
session a raffle ticket for a revolver. 

Q. Chairman Wood: As it might possibly lead to being armed? 
A. Senator Norris: Yes, if he happened to win it! 

BROTHER ARRESTED AND HOME TERRORIZED 
The Witness: This is the statement of Miss Mary O'Callaghan, 7 
Merrypole Lane, Cork. (Reading) : 

Affidavit of Mary O'Callaghan 

"I live with my brother, Timothy O'Callaghan, at 7 Merrypole 
Lane, Cork. On 27th October, 1920, at 10:55 P. M., I went to 
the door in response to a light rap. Before I could open it, it 
was burst in. I saw outside a military officer, two policemen, one 
Black-and-Tan, and about a dozen soldiers. The officer shouted, 
'Come out, Callaghan!' My brother Tim was in the kitchen, and 
entering, the officer compelled him to put his hands up. He 
asked him was he a Brigade General in the so-called Sinn Fein 
Army. My brother laughed. The officer asked him what he was. 
He replied, 'An Irish Volunteer.' He asked him for his arms 
and ammunition, which he had used some time ago. My brother 
said, 'I never used my arms.' The house was then searched, but 
as far as I could see, nothing was found. About 11:15 P. M. 
the party left, taking my brother with them, partly dressed. The 
officer returned to me and said, 'Half an hour will do all.' With 
that he left. 

"About half an hour after, I heard three shots fired, and I be- 
lieved my brother to have been murdered. After this firing, a 
soldier came back immediately. He was armed with a rifle and 
bayonet. He compelled me to put my hands over my head. He 
put the point of the bayonet touching my stomach, and said in 
a threatening manner that he would rip me open if I wouldn't 
give him information about the man Donovan. This was a man 
which I think was arrested in Barrett's building a few nights be- 
forehand. I said that I could give him no information, and that 
he could do as he pleased. Then another soldier called him from 
the outside, and when he went out, I ran but into a neighboring 
house. I heard them rapping at my door again. I heard no more 
after that, as I retired for the night. 

"The following morning I went home, found the door open, 
and a framed picture of Archbishop Mannix, and a complete shav- 
ing set belonging to my brother, missing. The head was broken 
off a statue of the Sacred Heart, and the picture of the late 
Lord Mayor of Cork, Alderman Terence MacSwiney, torn. 

"The morning of the 28th October I went to Cork Military Bar- 
racks and inquired for my brother. The military authorities de- 
nied all knowledge of him, but told me to search the County Jail. 



757 

I did so, but could not find him. The following evening I again 
went to Cork Barracks; they still denied all knowledge of his 
whereabouts. But coming through the Barrack yard with an 
escort, I identified a policeman going in as one of those present 
at the raid. I called him and asked him wasn't he the person 
who took my brother that night. He said, 'Yes.' I said, 'If 
you are a man, tell me if ye have done away with him, and if so, 
tell me where he is.' He said that he was the man who took him 
down to the Detention Barracks. I went down and told a ser- 
geant that I had found proof that my brother was there. He 
tried to excuse the matter somehow, but admitted me to see my 
brother for about three minutes. As there was a warder be- 
tween us, our talk was merely formal. 

"I ascribe the arrest of my brother to information given by 
the informer, 'Mr. Walsh.' I was coming from the barrack gate 
on 2d November. I saw! Michael Walsh going in towards the 
Barrack. He said, 'Hallo, Mary!' I made him no answer. He 
swore frightfully and said, 'I'll pin him as round as a hoop, and 
it will be a long time before you will see him. We have the 
long fellow at last.' He alluded, of course, to my brother Tim. 

"On 8th October at 3:50 P. M. I spoke again to my brother. 
He told me that he was brought before Michael Walsh by an 
officer that morning. Michael Walsh swore his life away, and 
said that my brother was the man who held a six-chamber re- 
volver in his hands, and gave the orders to fire, the night he, 
Michael Walsh, was attacked, but escaped, at Blarney Street. 
As my brother was with me that night in question, I know he 
Was not concerned in that incident. My brother could bring 
ample proof to establish a complete alibi, and will inform the 
military court of such; but as a soldier of the Irish Republic he 
will refuse to plead or recognize the court's jurisdiction to try 
him. 

"I swear that the foregoing testimony is, to the best of my 

ability and knowledge, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 

but the truth. So help me God ! 

i 

(Signed) "Mary O'Callaghan. 
"Sworn in my presence this 11th day of November, 1920. 
(Signed in Gaelic) "Sean O'Morda, 

"District Registrar for Cork City." 

Q. Senator Norris: What became of that man? Was he 
finally killed, or was he released? A. I have not got any further 
facts about him. He probably will be held for some months, and 
then either released or tried, if they are able to fix up some charge 
in the meantime. I think that is all now. 

Q. Chairman Wood: That finishes the depositions in regard 
to raids that you have here? A. Yes. There are some others 
there that I mean to put in, that I have not read. 

Chairman Wood: Then suppose we adjourn until 2:15 this 
afternoon. 



2:30 P. M. 

Chairman Wood : The session will come to order. We are going 
to continue this afternoon with the Lord Mayor of Cork. 



758 

BRITAIN BETRAYS PLEDGE TO IRISH SOLDIERS 

Q. Mr. Doyle: During the war Ireland contributed her share of 
soldiers to the Allied cause, in proportion to those of other nations; 
and I want to know what is the attitude of the returned soldiers of 
Ireland who fought for the Allies towards the Irish Republic. 
A. Oh, the vast majorty, — I can practically say unanimously 
through the country, they are with the Republican movement, and in 
many instances are actively engaged for the new Republic. 

Q. Do we understand that they accepted seriously the statement 
made by the British Prime Minister that one of the purposes of the 
war was to defend the rights of small nationalities? A. Abso- 
lutely, sir. They are pretty well unanimous that they, in their 
manner of being drawn into the fight, into the war, were 
fooled by England. These men really fought, I will not say in all 
cases, but certainly in the vast majority of cases, these men believed 
what was told to them by the representatives of the British Govern- 
ment, and in the second instance, unfortunately, by men who were 
public figures in Ireland. They accepted the fact that by going out 
to fight in the late war they went out to fight for Ireland as definitely 
and clearly as possible; and that one of the certain results of vic- 
tory in that war would be Ireland's independence. They see now 
that they were fooled in that respect, and they are one now with 
their fellow-countrymen and women in the fight at home. A num- 
ber of cases where men have been shot and wounded have been of 
men who have fought in the war as soldiers. * 
i 
WAR VETERANS WILL SUFFER FROM 
WITHDRAWAL OF GRANTS 

Q. You said today in your testimony that the British Govern- 
ment had withdrawn the grants made to local authorities, including 
hospitals, workhouses, and asylums. Now, does that mean, there- 
fore, that the British Government have refused to support the 
soldiers who fought for it and for the allies, because they happened 
to be placed in hospitals and asylums in Ireland? A. In so far as 
these men need those institutions, it does mean that. Of course 
there are some of these men who are in receipt of pensions from the 
British Government. The pensions, of course, are inadequate, and 
in most cases these men find themselves in actual want, with the 
result that they are organized in ex-soldiers' organizations with a 
view to improving their own situation. But so far as these men 
require or may require the services of any of these institutions, it is 
true that the British Government, by withholding the grants, has 
curtailed and is curtailing the efficiency of these institutions. 

1 See Turner case. 



759 

Q. Senator Norris: How many Irish soldiers were in the war? 
A. Seventy thousand. 

Q. How many? A. Seventy thousand soldiers from Ireland, 
as apart from soldiers of Irish birth. 

Q. Chairman Wood: North and south Ireland both? A. Yes. 

Q. You mean volunteers? A. Yes, certainly. 

Q. There was no conscription in Ireland? A. No. 

Q. There were many Irish soldiers in the British army before 
the war? A. Yes. 

Q. But these volunteered to serve England during the war. 
A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: And these volunteers relied on the promises of 
the Britsih Prime Minister and the British statesmen of that time? 
A. Yes, absolutely. 

Q. Now, Mr. Lord Mayor, do we understand that the upkeep 
of those who had been wounded, who had been rendered insane, who 
suffered from gas shock and other conditions of war, have been 
denied the help of these grants? A. That is true so far as the men 
will have to be denied the services of these institutions which depend 
upon the grants for a large part of their support. 

Q. It practically means that the British Government has dis- 
carded the soldiers who fought for it from Ireland. A. Yes, sir. 

Q. In the first place, as far as the services of these institutions 
are concerned in a general way, and in the second place, regarding 
the treatment of their wounds? A. That is so; but I cannot say 
whether the British Government has made arrangements for a 
special means of treatment or not. But in so far as the withdrawal 
of their grants is concerned, the British Government has made it im- 
possible for them to assist anybody, which includes soldiers. 

Q. Do I understand that these institutions help children as well? 
A. Well, in most cases there are separate institutions for children. 
But in the hospitals there are separate wards for children. 

Q. How are these separate institutions maintained? A. Some 
of them are in receipt of voluntary contributions, and some of them 
get in addition grants from local bodies. 

Q. But these institutions, they have been supported more or 
less, in whole or in part, by grants that help to maintain them in 
their care of- the children, — of course they will suffer by the with- 
drawal of those grants. A. Oh, undoubtedly, yes, unless the local 
authorities are able, by some means or other, to make up those 
deficiencies. One of those grants was a grant providing, during the 
last year or two years, I think, for the giving of free milk to school 
children. That grant, of course, has been withdrawn. Half was 
supplied by the Local Government Board and the other half by the 
local authorities. The local authorities will either have to provide 
the balance, or discontinue the service. 



760 

Q. Chairman Wood: Is that true just in Cork, or pretty well all 
over Ireland? A. Well, pretty well throughout the larger eities. 
It is true in Cork and the larger cities. 

GRANTS STILL GIVEN TO UNIONIST COUNTIES 

Q. Major Newman: Do you know whether the withdrawal of 
those grants has occurred in Belfast? A. In Belfast, no. Only in 
those cities that have severed their connection with the Local Gov- 
ernment Board. Belfast has not done that. 

Q. You told us this morning that 29 counties had declared their 
allegiance to the Irish Republic. How many have not severed their 
connection with England? A. There are four. There are 32 
counties in Ireland, but in Tipperary there are two county councils. 
The Unionist counties are Antrim, with Belfast; County Down, 
Derry, and Armagh. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Have any counties since taken any 
steps looking towards the repudiation of recognition of Dail Eireann 
in the hopes of getting grants? A. I did not understand your 
question. 

Q. Have any of the counties which recognized Dail Eireann 
taken steps looking towards a reconsideration of that action because 
of their failure to get grants from the British Government? A. I 
remember one case, the Galway Urban Council, I think. It was 
discussed as to the possibility of continuing without the grants. But 
to the best of my knowledge, nothing was done about the matter. 
I am not aware of any case where the repudiation of Dail Eireann 
has been discussed in any matter. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Then, Mr. Lord Mayor, insofar as the attitude of 
the British Government in Ireland today is concerned, one of their 
methods is the withholding of their support from the soldiers who 
fought for England and the Allies who happen to be in any of these 
counties in Ireland where the Republican Government functions? 
A. Yes, as far as I have just said. 

Q. Do you want to say anything more about that, Mr. Lord 
Mayor? A. Well, there have been a number of cases, — I will get 
to them later on, — where the men who have been shot or wounded 
in Ireland have been ex-soldiers who fought for England during 
the war. 

IMPARTIAL JUDGMENTS OF REPUBLICAN COURTS 

There is one instance in regard to the courts of Ireland that I 
might mention as an example of the extent to which these courts 
are functioning and the cases which they deal with, as well as the 
impartiality of their judgments. The scheme of courts under the 
Republic is different from the English Government scheme. The 
city is divided into parishes, and each parish has its parish court, 



761 

and for the entire district there is a district court. The parish court 
deals with minor cases and eases involving money up to ten pounds. 
The district courts deal with eases of money upwards of ten pounds, 
and also appeals from the parish courts, and ordinary cases of a 
more important nature than those which would be dealt with by 
the parish courts. There is as well the High Court, which goes 
on circuit. In our District Court in Cork I myself have pre- 
sided in a case of slander against a curate in Dunmore, Father 
Sheehan, one of whose parishioners sued him for slander. The 
action had been tried in the British courts in Dublin without re- 
sults, and the case came on to us. There was immense interest in 
the case. All told, it occupied three days. Despite the relative 
standing of the plaintiff and the defendant, the verdict in that case 
was that the Reverend Father Sheehan was found guilty and fined. 
Both fine and costs were imposed upon him. 

Q. Chairman Wood: About what date was that? A. This 
would be roughly about seven or eight months since, — about March 
or April. 

BRITISH SEEK TO SUPPRESS REPUBLICAN COURTS 

Q. In spite of the publicity, there was no interference? A. No. 
At that time the functioning of the courts was not much interfered 
with. They functioned with impunity, and did for about six months 
afterwards. It was only then that the campaign of repression began, 
and continues up to this time. From that time on it was impossible 
to hold the courts except the places of meeting were held absolutely 
secret. Raids on the courts, whenever the British authorities got any 
information about where they were to be held, were frequent; and 
all present, including the arbitrators and solicitors, were searched, 
and in many cases the arbitrators as well as the solicitors were 
arrested. So that the ordinary public sittings became secret, and if 
it is a matter requiring a jury, it is necessary to keep the venue 
secret. 

REPUBLICAN COURTS FUNCTION THROUGHOUT 
MOST OF RELAND 

Q. Chairman Wood: These court officials are not called 
judges, — they are arbitrators? A. Yes, arbitrators. 

Q. And they are not necessarily people learned in the law? 
A. No. People in the High Court in Dublin are, but in the lower 
courts they are not. 

Q. Major Newman: In this case you speak of, was the fine paid? 
A. The fine was paid. 

Q. There was no appeal? A. No appeal. 

Q. What is the higher court you speak of? A. The High 



762 

Court is composed of legal men, — men who have belonged to the 
bar profession under English Law. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: To what extent are the courts functioning today? 
A. The courts today are functioning under the same arrangements, 
but they are not functioning publicly, as they were. 

Q. Senator Norris: But how can it be secret when you have to 
have both sides, and you have to get witnesses? A. Well, that is 
obviously the difficulty. Both sides must know of it. There is the 
greatest danger — a constant danger — that the court will be raided 
and those present arrested. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: This case you spoke of about the 
priest: did I understand that someone had the priest arrested for 
slander? A. Not arrested, sir, charged. 

Q. Charged. And he was found guilty by this court? A. He 
was found guilty by this court. 

Q. What part of Ireland was this court sitting in? A. In the 
city of Cork. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Over what proportion of Ireland do these 
courts now function? A. They cover the whole country except a 
little patch in the north. 

Q. Except the four counties? A. Except the four counties. 

Q. And no courts function in those four counties at all? 
A. There would be courts in those four counties in particular dis- 
tricts. I am not familiar with the districts, but I know that in some 
districts they are functioning even there. 

Q. Down in Tyrone? A. Yes, Tyrone. 

PEOPLE REFUSE TO USE ENGLISH COURTS 

Q. Mr. Doyle: What is the difference between these courts and 
the English Courts? A. Under the English system there was what 
used to be called a police court presided over by a resident 
magistrate. Petty sessions were held in some districts fortnightly; 
in some cases monthly. In the cities or towns they were held daily. 
They dealt with the minor cases that arise in every community. 
These cases still exist, of course, but they are not brought into the 
English courts. It is only very, very rarely that any case is brought 
before them. They still sit formally, but when there used to be 
cases brought before them every day, now they may sit for a week, 
and the paper simply says, "Mr. So-and-So sat in the court today. 
There were no cases for hearing." It is only very, very rarely that 
a case comes before these courts for hearing. 

The assizes for Cork were held for the southern counties. That 
usually took in Cork, Tipperary, and Limerick. The last assizes 
held sat in Dublin, for Dublin and Dublin County and for all the 
southern district. There was no court held in Cork. There were no 
new cases. They were old cases which had been hanging for some 



763 

time. There were very few if any new cases, but no case, as I remem- 
ber, that had been voluntarily brought before the court by any of 
the people of Ireland. So that in that way the function of the 
British courts is really approaching a termination. 

BRITISH COURTS-MARTIAL SUPPLANT CIVIL 
COURTS 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Is it not true, Mr. Lord Mayor, that the military 
tribunals have practically taken the place today of the courts? 
A. Yes, absolutely in all cases where arrests are made now during 
raid* and such operations, which in the ordinary course would have 
come before either the minor court — the resident magistrate's court, 
or in certain cases where the charge was a serious one and where 
it would have got before a court of assize presided over by a judge 
of assize, they are all taken before courts-martial. 

Q. In other words, they cannot get a jury to sit for the British 
courts? A. Yes, that is the reason they withdrew the last assize 
from the southern district. The last assizes, they said, have failed to 
get a jury. None of the jurors turned up, except two or three, I 
think; and all the jurors were fined. 

CORONERS' INQUESTS PROHIBITED BY BRITAIN 

As well as taking over the functions of the regular courts, they 
have also taken over the functions of the coroners' courts. The 
British Government rendered a proclamation making it illegal to 
hold a coroner's court. These coroners' courts were provided by the 
British authorities themselves. The coroners were nominated by the 
county councils, but their nomination had to be ratified by the 
British Government. For eight or nine months it has been rendered 
illegal for these coroners to hold an inquest, except by special 
authority from the British Government. And since then inquests 
have been held by courts-martial. It is not deemed a court-martial. 
It is called a court of inquiry, but it is the same as a court-martial, 
presided over by three military authorities. There have been some 
inquests held. In the country there have been three held; but it is 
very difficult except in cases connected with the national fight, be- 
cause where a case occurs, the body is taken possession of by the 
military authorities, and they hold a military inquest. 

Q. Chairman Wood : Was the inquest over Lord Mayor Mac- 
Curtain's body the last of the inquests? A. That was the last 
inquest. That was. 

DECREASE OF LITIGATION IN IRELAND 

Q. Is it not true that the volume of civil litigation in Ireland 
has greatly diminished? I mean the appeals to the Sinn Fein or 



764 

Republican courts and the cases brought before the so-called Eng- 
lish courts added together would indicate that there is much less 
litigation in Ireland than there has been for the last two or three 
years. A. Yes, litigation has decreased, which is a good thing in 
itself. 

Q. Well, that may be a good thing for Mr. Doyle. But my 
feeling is, — Is it your feeling that the struggle of the Irish people 
for their freedom is occupying all their energies, and they have no 
time for litigation between themselves; or is it because life generally 
has become more stagnant, and there is not so much chance for 
litigation? A. No, the former is the reason. I don't know that 
life has become stagnant in Ireland in any way. 

ENFORCEMENT OF BRITISH LAWS BY MILITARY 

FORCE 

Q. Mr. Doyle : Mr. Lord Mayor, before, you finish up the ques- 
tion of courts, military law is practically the only way the British 
Government has of enforcing any of its decrees, except in the north- 
east corner of Ireland. Is that correct? A. I beg your pardon. 

Q. I say, is it not true that the only way the British Government 
has to enforce its decrees in Ireland, with the exception of a small 
section in the northeast part of the country, is by military force? 
A. Oh, yes, absolutely. 

Q. So that there is no civil remedy for any Irishman in Ireland 
today unless he gets that remedy in a Republican court? A. Out- 
side of that small section that you referred to, that is quite correct. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Does the Coercion Bill apply to 
northeast Ulster? A. No. The particular counties to which the 
writ was applied were classified in the order. 

CORONERS' JURIES IMPANELLED BY ACCUSED 

POLICE 

I suppose what led to the suppression of the coroners' juries were 
some of the verdicts they brought in. But the juries that had lis- 
tened to sworn evidence, — where they had listened to the evidence, 
the verdicts they had to bring in in many cases were of wilful 
murder against the police. For instance. I have here some of the 
verdicts brought in by these coroners' juries following an inquest. 
I don't know whether it is understood here how our coroners' juries 
are conducted. 

Q. Chairman Wood: How is the coroner appointed? A. In the 
first place, he is nominated by the county council or the corpora- 
tion, as the case may be, and the nomination must be ratified by the 
British Local Government Board. So that, in the first place, while 
he is nominated by a local body, he is an appointee of the Govern- 



765 

merit. And he sits with a jury that is impanelled by the local police, 
and all the evidence given at the inquest is given under oath. 

Q. How is the jury impanelled by the local police? Is there 
some method of taking a large number of names and putting them 
in a box and choosing from that? A. No, they pick the jury 
indiscriminately from the voters in the district. The usual custom 
is to summon about twenty men, and the first twelve who are called 
and are present are sworn as the jury. Sometimes there is an extra 
man or two sworn in case there is any accident to any of the mem- 
bers of the jury during the hearing. The evidence then is sworn, 
and the jurors are to bring in a verdict in accordance with the 
evidence which they hear. 

Q. Then in case the police would perhaps be the parties accused 
and against whom the verdict would be found, they are also the 
people who select the jury who bring in the verdict? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You would think that the people they would select would be 
as favorable to the police as any people that could be found in the 
community. A. That would be so. But of course these people, 
when they are sworn to bring in a verdict in accordance with the 
evidence which they hear, they cannot well do anything else. 

Q. Major Newman: What police do you mean? A. The local 
police, the Royal Irish Constabulary. They are responsible for 
having a jury in court for the coroners' inquests. 

Q. As a matter of fact, do you know whether they select in those 
lists people whom they think will be favorable or otherwise? A. 
Yes, that is quite notorious. In cases where their own service is 
likely to be involved, they will select men who have been on the 
police force, — ex-policemen or police pensioners. In some cases 
that has been notoriously so. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Some of my friends who are not particu- 
larly friendly to this inquiry have suggested to me that the reason it 
is so unanimous in Ireland is because everybody is intimidated by 
Sinn Fein. I was wondering if you had heard any complaint by the 
friends of these jurors that they have been compelled to find ver- 
dicts against the Crown forces so unanimously, as our records show 
they do, because of fear of violence by the populace. A. No, sir, 
I have never heard of such a case, no matter what the occasion. I 
have never heard of any case where there was any threatening or 
anything of that sort. 

Q. You have never heard that these coroners' juries were influ- 
enced in rendering their verdicts otherwise than by the evidence 
presented to them? A. Absolutely; and by virtue of their oath 
they must do so. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: I want some of these cases cleared 
up. Suppose a murder was committed by a state policeman or a 
member of the constabulary, — I say state policemen because we have 



766 

them in our state. A member of the Royal Irish Constabulary 
would be accused of the crime. Would this same member of the 
constabulary be permitted to pick the jury? A. That is the law, sir. 

Q. Then it simply means that the accused would be permitted 
to pick his own jury to try him. A. Well, it would not be quite 
that, because the solicitor of the next of kin had the right of 
challenge. But so far as the jury as a whole is concerned, it would 
mean that. 

Q. But the jury could really be fixed by the accused, could it 
not? A. It could be that. 

Q. Senator Norris: But it would depend upon whom it was. 
They might be entirely disinterested. A. Yes, that is true. But 
in these cases where it is a notorious fact that the police are the 
murderers, an effort can be made to get a jury which will not be 
unfavorable to them. 

Q. Senator Norris: But what I mean is that in ordinary cases 
there is no undue influence exerted upon the juries by the police? 
A. Oh, no, sir. 

Commissioner Maurer: I think it would be well to keep that under 
cover. I am afraid they might start to do that in Pennsylvania. 

Mr. Doyle: Mr. Maurer, we are not quite as bad as that. 

VERDICTS OF CORONERS' JURIES CONDEMN 
MURDERS COMMITTED BY BRITISH FORCES 

The Witness: Let me read this case, John O'Connell of County 
Cork. On Thursday, August 27, 1920, a coroner's jury at Kanturk, 
County Cork, returned the following verdict: 

"The Jury have unanimously agreed that John O'Connell was bru- 
tally and deliberately murdered by the military accompanied by police 
at Derrygallon on Monday, August 16, 1920. In the case of Patrick 
Clancy death was caused by a bayonet thrust as described by the 
doctors." 

The Witness: The British military report had stated that John 
O'Connell and Patrick Clancy were both shot down while trying to 
escape arrest. (Continues reading) : 

"We strongly condemn the action of the military, more especially 
as they could have, taken deceased alive if they so wanted, and more 
especially still as there was no evidence produced by the Crown or 
any other one to support the theory that there was any attack made 
on the military by the deceased. . . . We call upon General Sir Nevil 
Mat-ready, Mr. Lloyd George, and Mr. Bonar Law to bring the perpe- 
trators of these foul murders to justice. It has been proved to the 
satisfaction of the jury by the evidence at the inquest that the bullets 
used by the murderers at Derrygallon were flat-nosed, which is an 
infringement of international law." 



767 

HOW PRISONERS ARE SHOT "ATTEMPTING TO 

ESCAPE" 

That particular practice of shooting men while prisoners and 
then alleging that they were shot in an effort to escape was carried 
out even then, when coroners' courts were functioning. But since 
the coroners' courts have been abrogated, it has become very, very 
frequent, and it is one of the most frequent forms now in which 
murder is carried out by the British Government in Ireland. In 
most cases, even without a tittle of evidence, the very story itself 
carries its own contradiction, because it is so very obviously and 
patently ridiculous that a man or two men, being carried away in a 
military lorry surrounded by military forces fully armed and watch- 
ing them and with nothing else to do but watch them, and while the 
lorry is moving along to the nearest barracks, it is ridiculous that 
this man or these men would make an effort to escape from that 
lorry, because the military would certainly shoot them. But since 
these coroners' inquests have been abrogated, it is very, very fre- 
quent. One case is of two brothers named Buckley arrested in 
Midleton, County Cork, last August. These fine young men were 
arrested in the ordinary way and put in a lorry surrounded by men 
fully armed, and proceeded towards Cork. I will just read this, 
the deposition of one of the brothers. On the way shots were fired, 
and both of the brothers were wounded, one fatally. No effort was 
made by them to escape. But on arriving at Cork they were both 
taken to the military hospital attached to the military barracks in 
Cork, where one died and the other recovered and was later released 
because they could not find any charge against him. The particular 
story given out was that these two men were arrested and were being 
brought to Cork, and in attempting to escape were shot in so doing. 

LLOYD GEORGE IGNORES ACCUSATIONS OF 
JURIES 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, before you read that, I want to 
ask about what became of the verdict of the coroner's jury that 
called upon Mr. Lloyd George and General Sir Nevil Macready to 
stop the murders committed by their agents in Ireland. What 
answer was ever made? A. Oh, none; none absolutely at all. 

Q. They paid no attention to it? A. None absolutely. The 
same was true of the verdict in the case of the murder of Lord 
Mayor MacCurtain, where the verdict entered charged Mr. Lloyd 
George himself in it. 

Q. I want to ask Senator Norris a question in that case. The 
verdict of the coroner's jury in that case accused Mr. Lloyd George 
of murder. Would he not be debarred from the United States? A. 



768 

Senator Norris: I don't know. I am afraid our Department of 
State would make its own immigration laws for him. 

Chairman Wood: 1 am afraid we will be encumbering our record 
with an arraignment of our own state instead of investigating con- 
ditions in Ireland. 

HANDCUFFED PRISONERS WANTONLY SHOT 

The Witness: This is the deposition of this young man Buckley. 
(Reading) : 

Sworn Testimony of Batt. Buckley, Bally edmond, Midleton, County 

Cork 

"On Friday morning, 27th August, 1920, at the hour of 1 A. M., 
I was awakened by very loud knocking at the door. My brother Sean 
and myself were sleeping in the one room; we got up and dressed, 
then came downstairs. My father had come down before us and had 
the door opened. Two policemen, one of whom was Constable Clancy 
of Midleton Police Barracks, and a Cameron officer, entered. About 
twenty-five Cameron soldiers who accompanied them surrounded the 
house outside. 

"A thorough search of the house was proceeded with for about an 
hour and ten minutes by the officer and a sergeant of the Camerons. 
The officer then placed my brother and myself under arrest, without 
charging us with any offense. We were taken on foot by the entire 
party to the military headquarters at Midleton, which is occupied by 
Camerons. We were handcuffed there and left in the guard-room 
until evening, when we were removed about 6 P. M. During the 
interval we were at the military barracks, the handcuffs were kept on 
us for ten hours, but our treatment otherwise while in the barracks 
was quite normal. 

"At 6 P. M. we were placed in a military motor lorry in charge of 
a Cameron officer and about ten Cameron soldiers, and the lorry pro- 
ceeded along the main road leading to Cork. We were both handcuffed 
separately and were sitting on the floor of the lorry. I was at the rear 
of the lorry and my brother Sean was at the front, both of us facing 
in the direction from which we had come. About half a mile outside 
the town I heard my brother cry out, and immediately a sharp revolver 
shot rang out. The shout from my brother was in all probability 
occasioned by his seeing his assailant levelling the revolver at him. 
A second shot followed almost instantly, and I fell in the lorry, shot 
through the right shoulder. I gave no provocation whatsoever for 
this shot, and my brother gave none either. We were both sitting 
quite still, and were making no effort to escape, as is alleged by the 
military. 

"An hour and a half later, we were both admitted to the military 
hospital, Victoria Barracks, Cork. During our journey to Cork, the 
military left us lying in the lorry and never approached us to ascertain 
the extent of our injuries, or to succor us in any way; neither did 
they speak— even among themselves — after firing the shots, until we 
reached the hospital. As my brother uttered no sound during the 
journey to Cork, I believe he was unconscious all this time. I suffered 
great agony from the wound in my shoulder, but did not speak. When 
we reached the hospital we were placed in a ward, and our wounds 
attended to. My brother died almost immediately on being admitted. 

"On 10th November, 1920, I was released from the hospital without 
any charge being preferred against me, or being tried in any way. 
My right arm from the elbow down is still lifeless, and I am unable to 



769 

move my fingers. I have to use a crutch also, as my right leg is 
exceedingly weak, owing to what the military doctor terms shock. 'Ihe 
British authorities never inquired of me as to how the tragic occur- 
rence took place. 

"J solemnly affirm and swear that the above testimony is, to the 
Inst of my knowledge and ability, the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, and that same was given by me voluntarily. 
So help me God ! . 

(Signed) "Batt. Buckley. 
"Sworn in my presence this 30th day of November, 1920. 
(Signed in Gaelic) "Seamus MacGearailt, 

"Chairman, Cove Urban Council, 

"Cork Poor Law Guardian." 

Q. Chairman Wood : What sort of an officer was in charge of 
this lorry? A. A Cameron officer. 

Q. An officer of the Cameron regiment? A. Yes, the Camerons 
are a Scotch regiment. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: I want to ask a question with reference to that 
affidavit. Do I understand that these men were shot while they were 
handcuffed? A. Handcuffed and sitting in the lorry. 

Q. Handcuffed. And while handcuffed they were shot by these 
soldiers? A. Yes, absolutely. 

"WILFULLY AND BRUTALLY MURDERED BY 
MILITARY" 

To continue these verdicts. (Reading) : 

On Monday, August 30, 1920, a coroner's jury at Queenstown, 
County Cork, returned the following verdict: 

"We find that George Walker died on August 28th from shock 
caused by bullet and bayonet wounds inflicted by Cameron Highland- 
ers. As there was no evidence of provocation, there was no justifica- 
tion for this man's death." 

The Witness: On Monday, August 30th, a coroner's jury at Hos- 
pital, County Limerick, returned the following verdict: 

"We find that Patrick Lynch was unlawfully brought from his 
home on the night of August 4th by military then stationed in Hos- 
pital, and taken about two hundred yards to the south side, and there 
wilfully and brutally murdered by the said military." 

SUPPRESSION OF CORONERS' JURIES LICENSES 
CROWN FORCES TO MURDER WITH IMPUNITY 

The Witness: So many verdicts of this kind were brought in 
against the British military and police and the British Government 
that on Friday, September- 3, 1920, the British Military Government 
in Ireland issued an order prohibiting the holding of coroners' in- 
quests in ten of the counties of Ireland, including the two counties 
in which the verdicts I have just read were returned against their 
troops. The counties in which the holding of inquests is now an 
illegal act are Cork, Clare, Galway, Kerry, Limerick, Longford, 



770 

Louth, Mayo, Roscommon, and Tipperary. It is in these ten coun- 
ties that most of the worst outrages have been committed by Black- 
and-Tans and the police; and by abolishing the coroners' inquests 
the British Government has made it impossible to hold any public 
inquiry into such cases. It simply means that the British troops in 
these counties are immune to do as they please with the Irish peo- 
ple, and no public body will be permitted to bring the facts to light. 
This order of September third further decrees that in these ten 
counties Army Courts are to be established to fulfil the functions 
of the coroners' courts of inquiry. In other words, the British 
armed forces who in future murder and shoot Irishmen are solemnly 
to sit in judgment on themselves. The British Government, instead 
of suppressing such murders, deliberately endeavors to suppress the 
facts about them. 

Q. Senator Norris: Is there any question as to the legality of 
that order to abolish these coroners' inquests, when they have been 
legally constituted under English law by the British authorities 
themselves? A. Well, that is a matter, sir, which is purely legal. 
Personally I don't know. But it would be an unfortunate experi- 
ment for anybody in Ireland to appeal it. In the first place, it 
would have to be appealed to a British court; and in the second 
place, the British court would certainly uphold the order. And then 
I think that under the Defense of the Realm Act the civil powers 
are handed over to the military. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, is it not a matter of fact that 
the coroners' courts are one of the oldest courts in Great Britain? 
A. Absolutely, sir. The coroner's inquest was the first protection 
afforded the individual citizen, the first effort to keep definite check 
and control on sudden or unnatural death. It was provided that in 
any case where death occurs in an unnatural or mysterious way, an 
inquest should be held so as to give the citizens that protection. 
Now no inquiry takes place as to why that death should happen; 
or if there is an inquiry, it is in the hands of the military. 

Q. As I understand it, it is one of the first steps taken after the 
adoption of Magna Charta to safeguard the rights of the individual, 
and protect the life of the individual citizen against aggression by 
the sovereign or by anybody else contrary to the laws of the realm. 
A. Yes, it is one of the fundamental protections of the lives of the 
individual citizens, sir. 

BRITISH MURDERS OF UNARMED IRISH CIVILIANS 
EXCEEDS GERMAN RECORD IN BELGIUM 

I have here a summary of the murders in Ireland during the 
period from January 1, 1919, to August 21, 1920. 

Q. That is covering what period of time? A. January, 1919, 



771 

to August, 1920, — about eighteen months. I shall give it to you in 
bulk figures without any details. 

From January 1, 1919, to August 21, 1920, the British military 
and police in Ireland committed 51 murders of unarmed and in- 
offensive civilians. In the same period, 562 unarmed civilians were 
wounded by those armed forces. It is significant that in the ten 
counties of southern Ireland in which the British Government has 
prohibited coroners' inquests, there was a total during this period 
of 35 murders and 405 unarmed civilians wounded, or 69.45 per 
cent, of all such cases. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Is it not true, Mr. Lord Mayor, that that record 
is larger than the record charged against the Germans during the 
occupation of Belgium during the same period of time? A. As far 
as I know, yes, sir, just as the whole system of outrages in Ireland 
and the reign of terror imposed on the people living there is, I 
think, unquestionably far more terrible and far more cruel than 
anything that has been alleged against Germany in her occupation 
of Belgium. 

IN HASTE TO MURDER, MILITARY SHOOT WRONG 

MAN 
Q. Commissioner Thomas: Perhaps, Mr. Lord Mayor, you have 
later figures; but I should presume that the number of murders 
would be greatly increased since October. A. Yes, sir; I have 
later figures here. In some cases where the military engage in a 
raid with intention to shoot, they are not very careful. Sometimes 
they make mistakes. There is one particular case of where a young 
man was shot. Fortunately, he did not die. I myself visited him 
in the North Infirmary in Cork, and I was speaking to the doctor 
who examined him; and the doctor told me that it was marvelous 
that the man should have lived, as he received some terrible wounds. 
And one of the men engaged in this raid admitted to one of his 
comrades that they were in the wrong house; but by that time the 
poor man was lying in a pool of blood in the yard. This is the 
statement made by the father, Patrick Nunan, of Ardiprior, Butte- 
vant, County Cork. (Reading) : 

Affidavit of Patrick Nunan 
"On 28th September, 1920, my sons and myself attended mass, held 
in the parish church, for the Lord Mayor of Cork. The three of us, 
along with a laborer by the name of Michael Morrissey, were drawing 
hay on the day previously and also on the day referred to above. On 
account of the mass we returned home late in the evening with our 
second load of hay. When the hay was put in, Morrissey went home 
to change his clothes, and my two sons went with him. When the 
three returned to my home the soldiers were there before them. My 
son Patrick came in first, and he did not see the soldiers and did not 
know they were there until he heard the order of 'Hands up !' 

"Before my son arrived I heard a noise at the door. My wife and 
myself were in bed, and she wanted to go downstairs to let in those 
outside, as she thought they were our sons. I would not let her do 



772 

so, as I had heard strange voices. I partly dressed myself, and in my 
bare feet went to see what was wrong. Before I could go downstairs 
the soldiers were in my kitchen. They asked for candles, and I gave 
them one. Having given the candle, one of the soldiers asked was 
this Ardiprior, and I said that it was. He asked me my name, and I 
gave it. He asked had I Pat O'Brien here in my house, and I said 
that I had no one but my family. He then said, 'I'll shoot you.' 'If 
you do so,' said I, 'I can't help it.' 

"Then 1 heard the order of 'Hands up !' and I saw my son coming 
in the door with his hands above his head. The soldiers gathered 
aboUt him, and before putting any question to him, one hit him with 
the butt end of the rifle, while others hit him with their fists about the 
face. They searched him, and they then asked him his name, and he 
said Paddy Nunan. They stopped when they heard his name. He 
went from the kitchen to the bedroom, and sat down on the bed beside 
his mother. He was not there more than two minutes when the sol- 
dier who had already threatened me said, 'Take that young fellow 
outside the door and shoot him !' This order was hardly given when 
three or four others approached him and told him to come on.. I was 
in the room at the time this order was given, and when they were 
leading him out I attempted to follow, but was told to remain where 
I was. He went outside the kitchen door, and I could not leave the 
room. He was not far from the door when I heard the reports of 
shots. I shouted to his mother, 'Oh, Paddy is shot!' And she said, 
'No, they are probably only firing to frighten him.' 

"Some soldiers were in the loft where my girls were sleeping, and 
on hearing the shots one shouted, 'Oh. King, we are in the wrong 
house. Give me the ladder.' They rushed out of the house almost 
immediately. I then went out to look for Paddy, and when I went to 
the door I saw him, ten or twelve yards away, struggling to get up. 
I shouted to my family, and we all rushed out to where he was lying. 
I was first to him, and on asking him was he badly wounded, he said, 
' 'Tis nothing. Give me a mouthful of water.' My son Ned and 
myself brought him into the house. When he was put to bed, I sum- 
moned a priest and doctor, who arrived about 3 :30 A. M. 

"I swear before Almighty God that the facts as set forth in my 
testimony are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
and that same was given by me voluntarily. So help me God ! 

(Signed) "Patrick Nunan, 

"Ardiprior, Buttevant. 

"Sworn in my presence this 4th day of October, 1920. 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Domnall O'Ceallacain, 

"Deputy Lord Mayor of Cork and 
"Chairman, Cork County Council." 

MILITARY CLOAK ATTEMPTED MURDER BY 
FALSEHOOD 

The Witness: This is the deposition made by the young man him- 
self who was wounded. (Reading) : 

"I have heard read to me the written testimony of my father, 
Patrick Nunan, Ardiprior, Buttevant, County Cork, in the matter of 
an attack on me by a number of the British military forces on 28th 
September, 1920, and all portions of the testimony referring to me 
therein are true. 

"When I went outside the door, I was shot in the right hand. The 
soldiers were standing around in a semi-circle, and I had walked only 
five or six yards from the door when I received several shots in the 
back and front of my body. I fell forward on my face and hands. 



773 

I was then hit on the jaw with something hard. They turned me over 
on my back, and opened my coat and waistcoat. One of them said, 
'We needn't bother with him any more. He's all right.' They then 
went away, and my father and family came to me, and I was carried 
in home. 

••The report issued by the Military Headquarters, Parkgate, Dublin, 
which states : 

"'Running out of a house at Arjdiprior, near Liscarroll, while it was 
being searched by troops, and disobeying the order to "Halt," Patrick 
Nunan, a civilian, was wounded by the soldiers, who themselves were 
under fire. There is no truth in the report published in the Press 
that Nunan was taken out of the house, or that orders were previously 
given for him to be shot. He was found in possession of live and 
expended ammunition,' is untrue. Everything that passed from the 
moment I obeyed the order, 'Halt !' and entered my father's house 
with the soldiers is as given in my father's sworn testimony. The 
soldiers were not subjected to fire. There was no live and expended 
ammunition found on me, as I never had live or expended ammunition 
in my whole life. 

"I swear by the Almighty God that the facts as set forth in my 
testimony are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
and that same were given by me voluntarily. So help me God ! 

"Signed for Patrick Nunan, Jr., Ardiprior, Buttevant, who was 
physically incapacitated and could not sign, by 

"Seamus MacGearailt. 

"Sworn in my presence at North Infirmary, Cork, this 7th day of 
October, 1920. 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Domnall O'Ceallacain, 

"Deputy Lord Mayor of Cork and 

"Chairman, Cork County Council." 

Q. Mr. Doyle: You read the false report issued by the Govern- 
ment in that case. What Government do you mean? A. The 
British Government. 



REIGN OF TERROR GROWING WORSE 

The Witness: I mentioned today, gentlemen, that while this reign 
of terror had more or less existed for some years past, it has been 
gradually growing worse for the past year, and especially the last 
six months. In the first place, the night raids and searches have 
become more numerous. With that, the night raids are beginning, 
first of all, to be accompanied by the smashing in of shops and the 
looting of their contents; and developing later on, quite recently the 
burning of individual houses and shops. As well as that, the ordi- 
nary conduct of the forces of the British Crown during the day 
became more aggressive. It became fashionable for the soldiers and 
police passing through the city during the day to hang over the sides 
of the lorry all around, their rifles pointed at the passers-by, at the 
citizens of Cork, who were on their business in the streets during 
the day. Apart from any intention to shoot passers-by, — any de- 
liberate intention, — it was pretty obvious that, having lorries flying 
along at a high rate and soldiers in charge, or the police in charge, 
as the case may be, not having a reputation for great calmness and 



774 

coolness, that would not have any reassuring effect upon the people, 
so that the citizens passed through town only when necessary. 

SOLDIER FIRES IN CROWDED THOROUGHFARE 

In firing from these lorries as they pass through the streets, in a 
number of cases shots have been fired and in a number of cases 
no harm was done besides terrifying the people; but in other cases 
people have been hit and killed by firing from these lorries as they 
pass through the streets. Some of the depositions bear on that, 
particularly during the past three or four months, when things have 
become more acute than they were previously. This is the sworn 
statement of C. O'Cruadlaoic, 56 Grand Parade, Cork: 

Affidavit of C. O'Cruadlaoic 

"At 5 P. M. this evening, 2d November, whilst a lorry of soldiers 
in full war kit were passing along the Grand Parade in the direction 
of Patrick Street, 1 happened to be looking through the window of 
my office when f saw a soldier, who was sitting at the back of the 
lorry with a rifle between his knees, suddenly raise his rifle and fire 
a shot in the air. He then turned to his companions with a smile on 
his face. This being one of the leading thoroughfares in the city, 
was fairly crowded at the time, the majority being women ; and natu- 
rally there was much panic. 

"I swear that the foregoing testimony is the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, and that same was given by me voluntarily. 
So help me God ! 

(Signed in Gaelic) "C. O'Cruadlaoic. 
"Sworn in my presence this 5th day of November, 1920. 
(Signed in Gaelic) "Seamus MacGearailt, 

"Chairman, Cove Urban District Council, 

"Cork Poor Law Guardian." 

The Witness: That gives an example of the every-day life in 
Cork, — lorries passing and firing over the sides, terrifying the 
citizens. 

CONSTABLE GUILTY OF MURDER PROMOTED 

Here is another case of firing deliberately, — the sworn testimony 
of Michael A. Terry, Lavitt's Quay, Cork. (Reading) : 

"On Sunday evening, between 9 and 10 o'clock, on 24th June, 1920, 
1 was standing at one of the windows in my house, and saw a group 
of young men being pursued along this Quay, in a western direction, 
closely followed by five policemen. Opposite my door I saw quite 
plainly one of the constables load his rifle and take deliberate aim at 
the men, which was quite uncalled for, as the young men ran out of 
reach of the policemen and were dispersing home. Within ten or 
fifteen minutes after the policeman had fired on the men, I saw a car 
driving at full speed, and coming from the western side of my house, 
on its way to the infirmary. I heard two men in the car call out 
to the policemen whom they passed: 'Mind, ye have murdered a man.' 
The following day the man who was taken to the infirmary in the 
car died. 

"I then went to the police station, and saw the Chief Constable, and 
asked him, for God's sake and the peace of the city, to call an inquiry 



775 

into the occurrence, and I offered to bring forward at least five resi- 
dents who saw the incident and were prepared to testify to the callous 
conduct of the police on the occasion ; and was refused the grant of 
even an ordinary inquiry. 

"Note well the result of my complaint. The very same constable 
who fired the rifle, and whose name I gave to the Chief Constable, 
was within a very short time promoted to the rank of sergeant. 

"I swear before Almighty God that the facts as set forth in my 
testimony are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
and that same were given by me voluntarily. So help me God ! 

(Signed) "Michael A. Terry. 
"Sworn in my presence this 1st day of July, 1920. 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Domnall O'Ceallacain. 

"Chairman, Cork County Council." 

INDISCRIMINATE HIGHWAY ROBBERY BY BLACK- 

AND-TANS 
Before the development recently of wholesale terrorism has been 
the scattering of these men, this Black-and-Tan police force, around 
the streets of the city, holding up indiscriminately the passers-by 
and searching them. Passing on the streets, these men challenge 
the passers-by and order them to hold up their hands while their 
pockets are gone through. In many cases all the contents of their 
pockets are stolen, any money especially. I do not say that occurs 
in all cases, but it has occurred in a very large number of cases. 
That thing continued for a number of weeks, down to the time I 
left Cork; and it was further intensified during the two or three 
last evenings I spent in Cork, either holding up these men and 
robbing them, or seizing from the drivers of the hackney cars in 
Cork their whips, and whipping the passers-by indiscriminately 
along the footpaths. I presume that it can be attributed, apart from 
natural savagery, — because these men were always or nearly always 
drunk, — I suppose the purpose was to see if these citizens of Cork 
would be goaded into attacking them to some extent, and thus pro- 
vide an excuse for shooting them down. This is typical of these 
happenings. (Reading) : 

Sworn Testimony of John Creed, 56 Grattan Street, Cork 

"On Monday evening, December 6th, about 7 P. M., I left the Irish 
Transport and General Workers' Union offices, 80 Oliver Plunkett 
Street. I was there practically the whole day, doing temporary clerical 
work. I proceeded to Princes Street. I went into Geary's, wine mer- 
chants, Princes Street, and had two drinks. It was near 7 :30 P. M. 
when I left. 

"I came back in the direction of the Union offices. There was not 
a single person to be seen on Princes Street. At the Tullamore To- 
bacco House, which is at the corner where Princes Street joins Oliver 
Plunkett Street at right angles, I saw two men come from the direc- 
tion of the General Postoffice, which is at the end of Oliver Plunkett 
Street. They were dressed alike, in light raincoats and soft black felt 
hats. They both carried revolvers in their right hands. I had my 
hands in my coat pockets, and the smaller of these two men called out, 
'Hands up!' which I immediately did. He advanced towards me to 
search me, whilst the other covered me with a revolver. My right- 



776 

hand breast pocket contained a roll of fourteen £1 Treasury notes, 
and two ten-shilling Treasury notes, one £1 Treasury note, and about 
three pounds eight shillings in silver, total £19:8:0. After rubbing 
his hands down my front, probably to see if I had a revolver or any 
papers on me, he put his hand into my right breast pocket and took 
out the bundle of notes and some of the loose money. He looked at 
the money and put it into his pocket. He then told me to put down 
my hands and button my coat, and to get away. I was going off in 
the direction of the Union offices, but he compelled me to go in the 
opposite direction. I did so. The pocket containing the money was 
the only one of my pockets that was searched. The man who took 
it had a decided English accent. 

"I went back to Geary's and stayed there some ten minutes until I 
heard that things were quiet outside. I then went back to the Union 
offices, only just entering there when six fellows similarly dressed to 
# the fellows who robbed me passed, coming from the Post Office direc- 
tion, and followed closely by a motor car containing about six more 
of them. The two ladies in the Union offices were fainting from 
fright. Councillor Robert Day was with them. 

"The Treasurer informed me, when I handed the remnant of the 
money over to him, that £16:8:0 was missing. I told him my story, 
and I also placed the matter before the members of the Union. The 
latter complimented me on escaping with my life. I made a statement 
the following evening to the English Labor Commission who were 
taking evidence of outrages at the City Hall, Cork. 

"I swear that the foregoing testimony is, to the best of my knowl- 
edge and ability, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
and that same was given by me voluntarily. So help me God ! • 

(Signed) "John Creed. 

"Sworn in my presence this 10th day of December, 1920. 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Sean O'Morda, 

"Registrar, Cork District Court." 

The Witness: That gives you gentlemen an idea of what every- 
day life has come to in Cork. In passing through the streets of the 
city one has got to be perpetually on the lookout. You judge by 
seeing a crowd and commotion in front of you that these men are 
out searching. If they are, you get out of the district as quickly as 
possible, if you are wise. They come along and hold up and search 
indiscriminately, not only men, but women and girls. Quite re- 
cently some girls who attend Miss MacSwiney's high school in Cork 
were searched on their way to school, — had their pockets turned out 
and even their books examined. One of the results of this daylight 
searching is that the people, on account of the many instances of 
robbery, never carry any money around with them, except very, 
very small sums that are absolutely necessary. And they do not 
carry any watches with them. It has become quite the custom in 
Cork to leave money and watches and everything of that kind at 
home, except a few shillings that may be absolutely necessary. 
Another consideration is that when it is necessary to take money 
or anything of value with you, it is sewn into the clothing; and 
money is sometimes placed in socks or boots. But lately they 
apparently thought of that possibility, and they searched the socks 
of those whom they held up. 



777 

ATTEMPTS TO MURDER PUBLIC OFFICIAL 

I dealt today, gentlemen, with the particular difficulty in tending 
to business by those who are elected to the different public offices. 
This is a deposition by Mr. Seamus MacGearailt, who is chairman 
of the Cove ( Queenstown, it was) Urban Council, and a Cork Har- 
bor Commissioner. This, you will understand, is an important 
administrative body in the south of Ireland. Mr. MacGearailt has 
been continuously looked for and raided for, and for the past five 
or six months he has not been able to get near his own home in 
Cove, much less attend to his public duties, believing, and I think 
with reason in his case, that there was not only danger of arrest, 
but in his case danger of being shot. His deposition reads: 

Affidavit of Seamus MacGearailt 

"About the middle of August two of the newly arrived Black-and- 
Tan police came into my premises in 18 East Beach, Cove, and sought 
to purchase some goods. I informed them that I would prefer not 
to have any business dealings with them from a point of principle, 
and requested them to leave. They accepted my argument in seeming 
good faith, and left without demur. I resolved on this action, as I 
had reason to know they were testing me, having walked directly from 
the Barracks, a half mile distant, past several similar shops to come 
to mine. A further proof that they really did not intend to legitimately 
purchase is that on leaving my shop they entered a public house next 
door immediately. 

"About a week afterwards I was approached by the woman who 
acts as housekeeper in the Constabulary Barracks, Cove. She told me 
that there was general disagreeance between the old police and the new 
Black-and-Tan arrivals. That the Black-and-Tans wanted to come 
out a couple of times to burn my premises, and said that they would 
shoot me. That the head constable viewed the matter with so much 
alarm that he specially paraded and cautioned them; shifting one to 
Haulbowline, as he was afraid more especially that he would cause 
trouble in the town. He told them the place was quiet before they 
came, and he wanted no violence from them. 

"This was the first time this woman had spoken to me, but she told 
me she was so horrified by the threats towards me and their general 
demeanor that she made a resolve to warn me. 

"On Wednesday, 25th August, a party of Cameron Highlanders were 
disarmed by an armed body of men in the 'Hill' portion of Cove, and 
one soldier dangerously wounded. That night, my home, in conjunc- 
tion with others in various portions of the town, was forcibly entered 
and searched by police and military. I was not at home. Nine search- 
ers! examined everything in the whole house for an hour, and took 
away with them a lot of manuscript which I had written. On Thurs- 
day I wrote a letter to the Officer Commanding, Military Hutments, 
Cove, asking for a return of my manuscript. That day there were 
many arrests by police and military in the town. 

"On Friday morning at 10:45 A. M. I was in my shop at East Beach 
(batting to a friend. 1 saw a motor car containing a couple of soldiers 
draw up outside the door and a military officer with a revolver in his 
hand jump out. I ran to the back and dropped out through the 
window into the street below. My brother Michael, who was in the 
shop, told me the officer inquired for me and searched the place lor 
me. About five minutes afterwards, from a window in a house in 
Harbor Row, I saw the same motor car containing the officer and two 
armed soldiers pass back in the direction from which they came, viz., 
the military camp. About half an hour afterwards my mother came 



778 

to me and told me that about twenty minutes before a motor car 
pulled up outside our house, 3 East Hill, and an officer rushed in and 
asked if I were there. On finding I was not, they left immediately. 

"I believe the double raid to be consequent on police information as 
to my whereabouts. About 10:30 A. M. two policemen passing saw 
me in East Beach. They must have phoned the military immediately 
they reached the Barracks, as the motor car containing the officer 
stopped outside the shop ten minutes afterwards. They only searched 
my house on the return journey. 

"That day a military lorry was ambushed outside Midleton, about 
twelve miles from Cove, the military driver shot dead, and an officer 
and private wounded. They were brought into the military hospital 
at Cove, and that night at 11 P. M. the Cameron Highlanders wrecked 
all the shops in the principal business streets of the town, and looted 
many. My shop was untouched. At 3 A. M. the following morning 
armed Black-and-Tans issued forth from the local police barracks. 
They proceeded to East Beach, smashed my shop front completely, and 
entered, wrecked, and looted the premises. They were under the influ- 
ence of drink, and fired upwards of twenty-nine shots from their 
revolvers into the place, imagining, from their shouts of 'Now we have 
the - — ,' that I was there. Thev only desisted from setting fire 
to the place, notwithstanding the facts that a family of four children 
under seven years were living overhead, because prevailed upon by 
hysterical women. The panic prevailing, and the action of those police 
on that occasion, is given in a separate deposition. I firmly believe 
they fully contemplated murdering me on that occasion. 

"Subsequently upwards of nine other houses were raided by military 
to effect my arrest, the occupants being closely questioned as to my 
whereabouts. 

"I swear that the foregoing testimony is to the best of my knowl- 
edge and ability the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
and same was given by me voluntarily. So help me God ! 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Seamus MacGearaii.t. 

"Sworn in my presence this 15th day of November, 1920. 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Sean O'Morda, 

"Registrar, Cork District Court." 

BRITISH OFFICERS TORTURE HUNCHBACK 

The Witness : In the course of these raids, and even where per- 
sonal attacks and even murders are concerned, these forces are no 
respecters of persons. And even where conditions obtain which 
would appeal to the ordinary humanity or ordinary common de- 
cency of any man, or where one would expect it would, — even where 
a man has been crippled or deformed, that would not save him. 
There have been a number of cases where these men have been shot 
or otherwise maltreated. There was one notorious case in Bandon, 
on the night when several houses in Bandon were burned down. 
There was a young fellow there of eighteen or nineteen who was 
shot down in bed. In this case I give you the deposition of a young 
man in the case, Sean Murphy, Cork Hill, Bandon. (Reading) : 

"I visited James Murphy, St. Patrick's Hill, Bandon, on Wednesday 
night, 10th November, 1920, and obtained from him a voluntary sworn 
statement re. treatment he received at the hands of three British officers 
that morning. He told me he heard a knock at the door at 3 :50 
A. M., and he went out and opened the door. 'Three British officers 
rushed in, one (we will call him X) having a drawn revolver in his 



779 

hand. X was shouting, "You are the man we want." I was dressed 
only in my shirt, and stepped back. They shouted to "Get a candle ! 
When the candle was lit, X pointed his revolver at me, and told me 
to stand against the wall, calling me a Sinn Fein spy. He struck me 
across the head and knocked me. He compelled me to sit on a chair. 
Another officer (whom we will call Y) commenced ; quoting,^ 'Ven- 
geance is mine, and I will repay. These are our Lord's words. And 
he applied these words to himself. The third officer (whom we will 
call Z) was searching the house. X again gave me a blow which did 
not knock me, but he gave me a third which did. X and Y made 
me get up, and again I was struck and knocked down. This was 
done several times. They were questioning me on who were the 
prominent Sinn Feiners in Bandon. They made mention of Canon 
Cohalan, asking was he the most prominent Sinn Femer there. X 
said, "If you are a man, get up and fight; don't be getting behind, 
ditches and hedges to us. Come on ! Come on ! Get up and fight ! 
Z then put a Dolor Beads around my neck. They got two pieces of 
stick and made a cross with them. They put the cross in my hands 
and made me swear that I never gave information to Sinn Fein about 
British officers. They again struck me, knocking me on each occasion. 
They said that they were divided as to whether they would hang me 
or shoot me. Z cut a line (a piece of rope used for hanging clothes), 
made a noose in the middle of it, and put the noose around my neck. 
X and Y pulled an end of the rope each, but it did not tighten too 
much. It lifted me off the stool and broke. Its breaking probably 
saved me much torture. They said, "Well saved," and threw away the 
rope. X again brought the revolver into play. He put it to my 
mouth, and said, "You are going to die now." One of them said, 
"We won't shoot him." X then struck me several times. I was now 
bleeding from my mouth and nose, and think also from my ears. Y 
said, "Wash yourself!" I went to wash myself, X again hitting me 
in the eye, and calling me a dirty Sinn Fein spy. They made me kiss 
the revolver before going. When they were gone, I found that several 
books of a religious kind (Irish), a sheet and a tablecloth were 
missing.' 

"James Murphy is a little hunch-back, who resides with his sister 
who is not very strong. I saw the shirt which he was wearing that 
morning. It was completely clotted with blood on the front and back. 
I also saw the piece of rope. It would not be strong enough to hang 
a man, but a small man like James Murphy would suffer greatly the 
way they pulled it while the noose was around his neck. 

"He was in bed when I saw him, and his nose was very badly torn. 
He complained of pains in his head and back, and as a result of his 
treatment he is very nervous. I know James Murphy personally. He 
is a very quiet, inoffensive man. He is an ardent student of the Irish 
language. 

"I swear that the foregoing testimony is to the best of my knowl- 
edge and ability, from a careful examination into his case, the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help me God ! 

(Signed) "Sean Murphy. 

"Sworn in my presence this 19th day of November, 1920. 

(Signed) "Seamus MacGearailt, 

"Chairman, Cove Urban Council." 

The Witness: The Canon Cohalan referred to, I might mention, 
is the parish priest in Bandon. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: That deposition, of course, is taken under oath, 
is it not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. All these affidavits you have read are all taken under oath? 
A. Yes, sir, all taken under oath. 



780 

BARBAROUS TORTURE OF IRISH PRISONERS 

There have been a number of eases where ill-treatment after arrest 
has been alleged. But as that has been a more or less recent de- 
velopment, and as the men in whose cases it has been alleged are 
still nearly all in jail, it has not been possible to get the particulars 
in a number of cases. Fortunately, in one case, and I think it is a 
most glaring as well as a most cruel case, we have got the deposi- 
tion, although the man in this particular case is still in prison. 
The man concerned is Thomas Hales, one of the Hales family from 
Knocknacurra, near Bandon, County Cork. It is a family who are 
famous as athletes. His brother represents the Irish Republic as 
consular agent there. I had the pleasure of meeting him last July 
when I was there. I will read the deposition of Thomas Hales: 

Affidavit of Thomas Hales 

"On the 27th July, 1920, at about 5 P. M., I was standing outside 
a farmhouse at Laragh, about two and three-quarter miles from 
Bandon, — Mr. Hurley is the proprietor of the house. Some police and 
soldiers came and surrounded .the house and took me and Harte. 1 
was brought inside the house, and there saw Captain Kelly with other 
military officers." 

The Witness: Captain Kelly, I might explain, is one of the intel- 
ligence officers attached to the British Military Headquarters at 
Cork. 

"I had no coat on at the time. They then took me into an outhouse, 
and took all my other clothes off me and searched them for docu- 
ments. They found some documents on me, and on searching my 
coat, which was hanging up, they spilt out of it some cartridges. I 
had no cartridges in my possession, and I'm of the opinion that these 
were placed there by the military. Captain Kelly and Lieutenant 
Keogh took all my clothes off me. Lieutenant Keogh said, 'You have 
documents with regard to the boycott of the R. I. C When I was 
undressed they strapped my hands behind my back with leather straps, 
and put them around my neck and mouth. Harte was also strapped 
in a similar position. I was not in a position to defend myself, and 
Lieutenant Keogh hit me several times in the face and on the body. 
Kelly said, 'You have some documents from the Adjutant General per 
Michael Collins.' He apparently assumed that M. C. stood for Michael 
Collins. They dressed me again, tied my hands behind my back with 
leather straps, and also dressed Harte. Kelly said, 'You will be shot.' 
They put straps around my legs as well as round Harte's legs. They 
made me stand up, and made Harte stand behind me. They discov- 
ered a slab of gun-cotton in the farm. I do not know whether it was 
brought in by the military or not. They placed the gun-cotton on 
Harte's back, strapped it there, and Kelly said, 'Be prepared for a 
shock.' They looked round for a detonator, but could not find one. 
They then took the gun-cotton off Harte's back, and while my hands 
were strapped behind my back, and Harte's hands were also strapped 
behind his back, Lieutenant Keogh hit me and Harte in the face 
several times. He hit me very hard, and he had in his hand, 1 believe, 
the butt end of a revolver. 

"They then tied my right leg to Harte's left leg. and marched us 
off to a lorry about 200 yards away. I was prodded by a bayonet, and 
I was hit in the nose by the butt end of a gun. I was very weak, 
and it was difficult to walk in a three-legged fashion. 

"There were two girls in the farm who witnessed some of what 



781 

took place, namely. Miss Hurley and Miss Lordan. I am not certain 
if they were in the outhouse when I was stripped, but if they were 
not in the outhouse they were certainly outside. There were other 
people present who could also verify what took place. One of the 
boys of the farm was arrested at the same time, but the military let 
him go. 

"On reaching the lorry, they were not able to throw us both m 
together, so they separated Harte from me, and they threw us 
into the lorry. I was nearly blind, as blood was running down my 
face from the injuries I had received. We were taken to Bandon into 
the Military Barracks yard, and were lined up to be shot. The sol- 
diers were howling for our death, and were anxious to shoot us. We 
had our backs to the wall, and Harte was on my left-hand side. 
Keogh said, 'Do you want to be blindfolded?' We said, 'No.' I asked 
to see a chaplain. Keogh said, 'Damn it, why do you want to see a 
chaplain?' I said, 'All right, go ahead.' 

"We were still tied with our hands behind our backs, and the 
soldiers hit us with their fists. My sight was getting very dim, owing 
to the blood that I was losing, and I felt very weak. Kelly paced 
out twelve to fifteen paces from us, and then put five or six men with 
rifles at the end of the fifteen paces. Harte was then very weak and 
could hardly see. He stuck a flag into Harte's hand, and made him 
hold his hand up. I recognized that the flag Harte was holding up 
was the Union Jack, but Harte himself was too far gone to recognize 
it. A man came with a camera and took a snapshot. Kelly then 
said, 'We must get some information first before we shoot them.' We 
were then taken across the Barracks yard into a room in the Barracks. 
The soldiers were furious at not being allowed to shoot us, and they 
punched us and pummelled us the whole way across the yard. 

"They locked us into a room. It was getting dark by this time. 
About midnight I was led out by the guard, and taken to an upper 
room. There were, I believe, six officers in this room, including 
Captain Kelly of the enemy Military Intelligence Department, sta- 
tioned at Cork City; Lieutenant Keogh of the Hants Regiment; 
Lieutenant Richardson, in charge of wireless at Bandon; Lieutenant 
Green, believed to be of the Hants Regiment. They were sitting down 
as if they were going to try me. There were no soldiers, only officers 
in the room. 

"Kelly opened the proceedings by saying. We are going to try you.' 
My hands were still tied behind my back, and the strap was fastened 
round my neck and face. Kelly took up a book which he said was a 
Bible, and opened it and placed it in my hands behind my back. He 
told me to repeat the oath which he was going to say. I said, 'For 
what purpose?' He said, 'We want your name, and for you to answer 
other questions on oath. If you do not, you will be handed over to the 
R. I. C, and they will quickly identify you and deal with you.' I, of 
course, was well known to Captain Kelly. He had seen me many 
times before, and of course knew my correct name. I had previously 
given a false name when I was arrested, — that was before I knew 
Kelly was present. 

"I said, T have no objection to giving my name.' They let my 
trousers and pants round my feet, my hands still being behind my 
back. 'Now,' said Kelly, 'repeat the following words after me.' He 
then started saying some form of oath and included in it the name 
of the Blessed Virgin. I did not repeat the name of the Blessed 
Virgin, and two of the officers took their canes and beat me on my 
bare legs for about five minutes. I was powerless to do anything. 
Kelly then asked my name. I said. 'Tom Hales.' He said, 'You are 
Commander of a Brigade.' I said I was one time. He asked me who 
was the man next in command to me. I said I refused to tell him. 
I said, 'You are foreigners to me, but I appeal to you, if you are 
gentlemen, to go ahead and get on with the shooting part of it. I am 
quite ready.' 



782 

"Kelly then told one of the officers to go out and get the pliers. 
He then said, 'You are an anarchist and a murderer. You have 
organized all the murder and attacks on barracks in this part of the 
country.' He said, 'Where were you on Sunday? Were you at mass, 
and at what mass?' I said, 'I was at mass at Rossmore.' He then 
asked me was I not responsible for raising the training camp at Glan- 
dore last year. I refused to answer. The two officers then gave me 
about forty cuts each on my bare legs. Kelly then said, 'Will you 
refuse to tell me was Professor Gerald Sullivan Commander of the 
camp?' I told him I did not know such a man. He said, 'You are a 
damned liar.' The two officers then gave me vicious blows on the 
leg, and the blood was flowing down my legs from several wounds in 
them. (Dr. Shannon, civilian doctor of Cork Prison, saw the scars 
that were on my legs.) The scars were visible for three weeks after 
this night's event. 

"Kelly said, 'There was one of your dispatches intercepted con- 
nected with the camp and signed by you. Be sure we know more 
about you than you think.' Then he said, 'Where did you sleep last 
Sunday night?' I said, 'I was at home.' 'That is a damned lie,' said 
Kelly. I said, 'I generally sleep at home. I hardly ever sleep in 
anybody else's house. The hay shed is good enough for me.' Kelly 
said, 'You organized and were in the attack on Farnivane Police 
Barracks.' I said, 'You may have been told that.' He asked me 
what rank did John Buckley of Bandon hold in the Irish Republican 
Volunteers. I said, 'He. is a builder, and a good Sinn Feiner at that.' 
I was again viciously whipped for the statement. He said, 'What 
position does your brother John hold and where is he staying?' I 
said, T refuse to give you any information about him.' He then 
turned to the officer whom he had sent for the pliers, and he started 
bending and twisting and pinching my fingers at the back. He gripped 
them at the back, placing one portion of the pinchers against one side 
of my nail and the other portion of the pinchers against the other. 
He brought the blood to the tops of several of my fingers, and for 
some time afterwards my fingers were black on the tops, owing to 
congealed blood there. I was feeling extremely weak, almost faint- 
ing, and the blood was dropping down my legs. I was asked several 
questions about other individuals and about military matters, but I 
refused to give any information. 

"Kelly also put the pinchers on my thighs, but my senses were 
becoming quite numb. After that, and finding I would answer no 
questions, he told me I would be shot at dawn. He said, 'You are a 
Commander of a Brigade and know all about these murders. If 
you do not know, you should know, or you can have no control over 
your men.' I said, 'If that is so that I have no control over my men. 
there are other people besides me that have no control over their men.' 

"Keogh then untied my hands and told me to pull up my trousers. 
I did so, and my trousers were sopping wet with blood. Kelly said, 
'The Court is closed for the finding.' He said, 'Stand up,' as my 
knees were somewhat bending, 'and we will see what a Tommy can 
do to you.' Keogh then landed me a terrific punch in the face. I 
said I would not defend myself ; I would not give them an excuse to 
say I had hit them. Keogh hit me several times in various parts of 
the body, but especially in the face, and he broke the four teeth in 
my upper jaw. He then knocked me down on the ground. I was 
absolutely exhausted and nearly fainted, and my senses were beginning 
to go. He hit me on several occasions while I was on the ground. 
After a few minutes one of the officers said, 'That's enough.' I was 
then dragged up and led out of the room. My hands had not been 
retied since they had been undone in order to lift up my trousers. 
When I got outside my hands were tied up again and the straps 
fastened round my neck and face. Five or six soldiers hit me while 
1 was going to the room where Harte was. 

"After I had been placed in this room, bleeding and exhausted, 



783 

Harte was taken upstairs. He was treated in a very similar fashion, 
and it has, unfortunately, had a detrimental effect upon his brain, 
and he is now practically mentally incapacitated. 

"In the morning, at daybreak, the 28th July, the sergeant came in 
and loosened the straps that tied my arms. About half an hour 
afterwards Captain Kelly came in with a squad of men and took me 
out of the room. He noticed the straps were not tight. He said, 
'Who in the hell loosened your straps?' He had them immediately 
tightened. I went into another room and had to kneel down. Harte 
was also brought in and told to kneel down; and we were left kneel- 
ing for about five minutes. We were then told to get up, and were 
taken into the barrack yard. They put me up against a wall. I said, 
'Will you let me see a chaplain?' 'No,' said Kelly, 'I will not.' I 
said to Kelly, 'Your life will only be a short one, the same as mine.' 

"He immediately drew out an automatic pistol and placed it against 
my temple and said, 'One question, and on the answer of this question 
depends your life. Give me the names of the six battalions.' I said, 
'Even if I knew the names of the six battalions, I would not tell you.' 
Kelly said, '1 will give you another chance, and if you don't tell me 
the battalion names, 1 will shoot you dead.' 1 said, 'Go on. I won't 
tell you the names.' 

"He then took down the revolver and walked over to where some 
of the officers were, and said something to them. 1 then heard him 
say, 'We will take him off, and we will give him some more torture.' 
They threw me into a motor lorry. Harte was also thrown into the 
same motor lorry, and we were brought to the Military Hospital in 
Cork. I was attended to by the doctor in the hospital, and my treat- 
ment and Harte's treatment in the hospital was satisfactory. We were 
given newspapers and were not in any way molested or struck, and 
our injuries were attended to. 

"We were placed, though, in a ward where there were twelve 
wounded policemen, and they were all day and all night long talking 
at us and crying for our blood. This had a very detrimental effect 
upon Harte, who in consequence is now in a very weak mental state. 

"On Tuesday, the 19th August, we were told by the military officer 
that we would be tried by court-martial sharp at 10 o'clock. On 
August 20th, at quarter to ten, we were taken to the place where 
the court-martial was to take place. After waiting fcr half an hour, 
the sergeant was told to take us back, as the court-martial was post- 
poned. At twelve o'clock we were taken again to the same place, 
and again, after waiting half an hour, the court-martial was post- 
poned and we were taken back. At 2 :30 we were taken again to the 
court-martial, and the court-martial took place. I refused to recog- 
nize the court, and I refused to cross examine, but I stated that I had 
no munition on me. The president asked me did I want to cross 
examine Captain Kelly. I said, 'No.' We were sentenced to two 
years' hard labor." 

The Witness: Well, that, gentlemen, is one of the most glaring 
cases I know of. 

CRUEUTY DRIVES PRISONER INSANE 

Q. Senator Norris: That man is still in prison serving his lime? 
A. Yes, sir; that man is still in prison serving his two years. And 
in the case of the man Harte, we have had reports definitely, — we 
have heard rumors, but some time before I left we learned that the 
poor man had lost his mental balance and was insane. We made 
efforts before I left Cork to get him transferred to the Cork lunatic 
asylum, but up to the time I left, nothing came of it. 



Q. Mr. Doyle: Was this affidavit submitted to the Labor Com- 
mission which was in Ireland? A. Not that I know of. Not in 
Cork. It may have been in Dublin. 

( t ). Were some affidavits submitted? A. Some of them were. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: That Captain Kelly is still in the 
Information Office? A. In Cork, he is. 

Q. Is Captain Kelly an Irishman? A. That I do not know. 
I know nothing whatever of him. I scarcely think he would be, 
and I surely hope not. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: This party you were telling about, in 
what prison is he? A. In Dartmoor, I think. 

Q. That prison is in England? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Commissioner Wood: Do you know these persons, Mr. Lord 
Mayor? A. Not all of them. 

Q. Were these depositions made before you in your position as 
chief magistrate of the city of Cork? A. Yes, sir, most of them 
were. 

Q. Senator Norris: This one you just read was? A. Well, that 
was an irregular one. Most of these poor men are still in prison. 
That is the case of this particular man whose affidavit I have just 
read, Mr. Tom Hales. He is still in prison; and that had to be 
given through channels other than the ordinary deposition. But it 
is perfectly reliable. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Do you know that man yourself? A. Yes, 
I know him personally. 

Q. Senator Norris: He is a reputable man in every way? A. 
Oh, yes, absolutely. 

Q. How old a man is he? A. Thirty-five or thirty-seven. His 
father is a farmer in a large way near Bandon. He has three or four 
brothers. They have a threshing machine which they operate all 
around there. 

Q. How long have you known him? A. Five or six years. 

Q. He bears a good reputation, does he? A. Yes, as good as 
any man in the country. 

FACTS ABOUT IRISH ATROCITIES SUPPRESSED BY 
BRITISH-CONTROLLED CABLES AND PRESS 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: We have heard about these atrocities 
in Ireland. What effort have you made, if any, to inform the 
British authorities about them, — I mean the official family of the 
British Government? A. None whatever except that these particu- 
lar cases have been reported in the press in some form or other. 

Q. The Irish press? A. Yes, in the daily press. 

Q. Has any publicity been given to these crimes in English 
papers? A. Yes, in some of them. Not all of these cases have 
been, but the case of Mr. Hales was in some of them. 



785 

Q. The thought that was in my mind was this: Yon probably 
remember that before we got into the war, and for a long time 
before the war ended, we heard a lot about the terrible atrocities 
thai were happening in Belgium. A. Yes, certainly. 

Q. Since the war ended we have found that a good many ol 
those stories are not true, but we accepted them as true; and the 
thought I have in mind is that, as regards the stories that we have 
listened to for the last few weeks here about Ireland, the stories 
we heard about Belgium, even if they were true, are not as bad as 
the stories we have heard about Ireland. And yet the people do 
not seem to believe them. Can you explain that? A. Well, it can 
be explained by the way England controls her press. I understand 
that even in America you are not immune from that control. And 
that has a good deal to do with it. The fact that Republican Ire- 
land, even in Ireland, does not own or control a daily paper, makes 
it very difficult to get the truth to the people. 

AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS GIVE DIFFERENT PUB- 
LICITY TO BELGIAN AND IRISH ATROCITIES 

Q. Do you think it is possible that the British Government does 
really control the press of the United States, inasmuch as we do not 
get any of this information, except as we are getting it in this 
Commission? A. Certainly you do not get any of this informa- 
tion, especially in the detailed way you get it in this Commission. 

Q. But we got it from Belgium every day. A. Well, as an 
example of the way in which that information is treated, take a 
case I saw in your papers the other day, the case of a young man up 
in the north of Ireland, in Kilmuth (?). This young fellow, his 
house was raided; his sister was injured in seeking to prevent his 
removal ; his brother was forced to accompany his captors into the 
yard, and there, with his brother looking on, he was shot dead. 
Now, with reference to Belgium and the publicity about what hap- 
pened there. Let us assume that that had occurred in Belgium 
during the war. Do you think it would be confined to a five-line 
space on one of the back pages of your newspapers? Could you 
possibly have a more glaring outrage than that committed in any 
country, and still have only five or six lines in the back pages of 
your own newspapers? — where a young fellow was taken out of his 
home and shot, and his brother forced to witness the procedure, 
and his sister injured in addition. Cases like that do not always 
even get five or six lines on the back page, owing to English control 
of the cables and its own news service. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Is it not a notorious fact that the British Govern- 
ment controls the cables to this country, even today? A. Abso- 



780 

lutely. I believe I have read something about that in your papers 
just since I have been here. 

IRISH EDITORS IMPRISONED FOR EXPOSING 
ATROCITIES 

Q. I would like to ask you, is it not true that some of these 
cases were published in your papers, like the Freeman's Journal, 
and the editors were arrested and put in prison? A. That is a fact. 
The editor and the directors were arrested. 

Q. Can you give us the facts of this case? A. Well, the editor 
and directors were charged with giving untrue facts about one of 
these cases. The editor and manager, through their counsel, Mr. 
Dan Dealy, showed that their accounts were justified; that they 
had every right to put them in; and yet, in spite of that, they were 
found guilty and put in prison. However, I see now that the Gov- 
ernment has released them, — or they were being released within the 
past week, on account of ill-health. 

In regard to that case of Hales — 

ABUSE OF PRISONERS A VIOLATION OF RULES 

OF WAR 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Before you leave the Hales case, may 
I ask a question or two? A. Certainly. 

Q. Mr. Hales was sentenced for two years? A. Yes. 

Q. Do you happen to know on what ground he was sentenced? 
A. No, for the moment I do not know definitely what the charge 
was. I think it was for having seditious documents in his posses- 
sion. The two charges usually are either for having seditious docu- 
ments or for having arms and ammunition in your possession. 

Q. Do I understand that Mr. Hales admitted quite openly his 
membership in, and the fact that he had held a commission in the 
Republican Army? A. Yes. 

Q. If Mr. Hales had been treated as an ordinary prisoner oi 
war, would he have objected? A. No, he would have been quite 
satisfied. 

Q. You see, the fact that I would like to bring out, and which I 
think you would like to impress upon us, is the treatment of this 
prisoner not in accordance with the rules of warfare. A. No, of 
course, it was his treatment subsequent to arrest, when he was a 
prisoner. 

Q. But the fact was not disputed that he was an officer in the 
Republican Army? A. No, no. 

Q. And as an officer in that army, he would, of course, have 
taken part in the operations of that army? A. Yes, of course, and 
would have been willing to take the consequences; and the conse- 
quences, of course, should have been in accordance with some legiti- 



787 

mate method of treatment, and not in the barbarous manner in 
which he was treated in this case. 

BRITISH SUPPRESS IRISH NEWSPAPERS 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Before you go on, Mr. Lord Mayor, I would like 
to ask you about the Freeman s Journal. Is that a large and promi- 
nent newspaper in Ireland? A. Yes, the Freeman's Journal is. It 
is a journal with an unfortunate reputation in Ireland. It has 
nearly always had the reputation of being in league, or practically 
always in touch, with the British authorities in Ireland, or at least 
in sympathy with Britain. However, there has been a change in the 
management of the Freeman s Journal about six months since. Since 
then there has been a change in the tone of the Freeman's Journal, 
and it has become more sympathetic with the fight waged by the 
people of Ireland, and has reported very fairly and accurately the 
different outrages that have occurred in the country. This culmi- 
nated with the two reports with which they were charged. One of 
the charges against them was publishing the photograph of the 
back of a young man who had been lashed in prison after his 
arrest. The Government maintained that the photograph was not 
correct, — was not a true photograph, — and they maintained it was. 
And the young fellow himself gave evidence that it was, and his 
doctor also testified as to his injuries. But despite that, the editor 
and manager were sentenced to pay a heavy fine as well as im- 
prisonment. 1 

Q. Mr. Doyle: The photographer also gave evidence, did he 
not? A. Yes, he said the photograph was correct. 

Q. What is the circulation of the Freeman's Journal? A. That 
I could not tell you. 

Q. How many other papers in Ireland have been suppressed for 
telling about these outrages? A. Well, there have been a number 
of them suppressed from time to time; but the only papers that were 
suppressed of any importance were the national and weekly papers. 
The Cork Examiner and the Independent, I think, was suppressed 
for a time. The Freeman was also suppressed. Most of the papers 
that have been sympathetic with the Republican fight have been 
suppressed from time to time; but in most cases, as far as the daily 
press was concerned, the term of suppression was short. But the 
weekly press of the Republican movement has been suppressed con- 
tinuously for the past three years. But the result of the suppression 
in every case has been to have a new paper issued. They simply 
change the name of the paper and start in again. 

Q. What is the alleged charge for the suppression of these pa- 
pers? A. Oh, there is never a charge made. The object, of course. 



1 This photograph is reproduced in the Commission's Report, p. 



788 

is to prevent full freedom of expression, and to prevent the truth 
being expressed to the world. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Where is the Freeman's Journal published? 
A. In Dublin. 

PAPERS DARE NOT PUBLISH SWORN AFFIDAVITS 
OF BRITISH ATROCITIES 

Q. Mr. Doyle: What I want to know is whether the affidavits 
that you have read were published in those papers. A. Oh, no, 
not at all. The suppression of the paper in that case would be a 
permanent one. 

Q. In other words, the papers could not publish those affidavits 
that you have read here today, even though they are absolutely true, 
and are sworn to under authority? A. No, not at all. 

CROWN FORCES COMPEL PAPERS TO PUBLISH 
THREATS 

The Cork Examiner and the Evening Echo have been forced at 
the point of a revolver to insert threatening notices to the citizens. 
These notices, while they are not official, at the same time the Ex- 
aminer s staff are forced to insert them by visits of the police force 
to them, who simply stand over them until these notices are put in. 
These notices threaten different penalties upon the people of Cork. 
For instance, here is an issue of the Cork Evening Echo for Decem- 
ber 10, 1920, which will give you examples of what these things are 
like. These notices are inserted in the center of the paper in strik- 
ing black type. The paper not only has to insert them, but is afraid 
to refer, and never has referred in any of its columns, to the man- 
ner in which these notices are handed to them and they are forced 
to put them in. This particular one is headed in the paper: 

"We have received the following: 

"NOTICE 

"If G. Horgan is not returned by 4 o'clock on today (Friday), 
10th December, Rebels of Cork, beware, as one man and one 
shop shall disappear for each hour after the given time. 

(Signed) : " 'B. and T's.' " 

The Witness: That is very important, because it was inserted on 
that day, December tenth, the day before the burning out of the 
heart of commercial Cork. It threatened definitely that if some- 
thing does not happen about which nobody knows anything in Cork, 
one man will be shot and one shop destroyed for each hour after 
the given time. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Have you any idea as to who this 



789 

G. Horgan is? A. No, sir. After that everybody in Cork were 
asking themselves who this G. Horgan was, and I have never found 
on! !<> this lime. 

The next notice is: 

"We have received the following: 

"IMPORTANT NOTICE" 

"We, the undersigned, do now give the male sex of Cork City 
notice, 'which must be adhered to forthwith,' that any per- 
son of the said sex who is seen or found loitering at 
street corners or on the pathways without reasonable ex- 
cuse why he should be there, or any man or any boy found 
to be standing or walking with one or both hands in his 
pockets, will, if he does not adhere to this order, suffer the 
consequences which will no doubt ensue. 

(Signed) : "Secretary of Death or Victory League. 
"God Save the King and Frustrate His Enemies." 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: What is the politics of the paper 
from which you then read? A. Pardon? 

Q. What is the political color of the paper from which you read 
these notices? A. It was the official organ in Cork of the late Par- 
liamentary Party. It is a Parliamentary organ, mildly in sympathy 
with the Republic, but still adhering to constitutional methods. 

Q. Chairman Wood: It would have been called a Redmond pa- 
per before? A. 0, yes, a Redmond paper. 

THE TORTURE OF KEVIN BARRY 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, you have another affidavit of a 
case following the Hales case? A. Not another affidavit, but I 
want to refer to Kevin Barry. I want to mention that case. Kevin 
Barry was a young university student of eighteen years. He was 
arrested following the attack upon a military lorry in Dublin. He 
was tried by court-martial and was hanged. In the interval between 
his trial and his execution, poor Barry, so it was stated by those in 
Dublin who were in a position to know and who were in touch with 
him and with the prison while he was there, — they told me that he 
was subjected to tortures; that he himself told them, — one of the 
last messages that he sent out of prison, — that he had had his arms 
twisted until they ached in an effort to get from him the names of 
those who were with him on the event of the attack on the lorry. 
He was subjected to that for some four or five days subsequent in 
order to force from him the names of those who were with him. 
He, of course, not only suffered tortures but suffered death; but he 



790 

certainly did not give the names of those who were with him on that 
occasion. 1 

AMERICAN PRIEST ASSAULTED BY POLICE 
In Cork quite recently a priest from Philadelphia, Rev. Edmond 
O'Shea, made this deposition about what happened to him in August 
of last year: 

"On Sunday, August 9, 1920, I was set upon by Sergeant Larkin 
and Policeman Gallagher, Blarney, demanding what authority I had 
for putting a tri-color flag on Blarney Castle. The question was so 
absurd that I refused to answer; a flag similar to the flag in question 
floating over the City Hall, Cork, at the time. The tri-color had been 
left on the top story of the Castle by accident. 

"I was immediately placed under arrest. I was thrown down, throt- 
tled, and only when my life seemed in danger did it occur to me to 
state my American citizenship. In face of two drawn revolvers I 
managed to forcibly escape from them, and rejoined my friends at the 
Castle. Just there and then I was laid violent hands upon by the 
police. Possibly influenced by the crowd which gathered, the police 
returned to barracks without me. 

"On our way home the way was barred by at least six armed po- 
lice. Larkin gave orders for them to take forcible possession of me, 
but the entire force seemed paralyzed by fear, for I passed through 
without harm. 

"I swear that the foregoing testimony is, to the best of my knowl- 
edge and ability, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
and that same was given by me voluntarily. So help me God ! 

(Signed) "Edmond O'Siii' \. 

"Sworn in my presence this 1 5th day of November, 1920. 
(Signed in Gaelic) "Seamus MacGearailt, 

"Chairman, Cove Urban Council, 

"Cork Poor Law Guardian." 

The Witness: That happened at Blarney Castle. I don't know 
whether the reputation of Blarney Castle has come to this country, 
but it is quite well known in Ireland. 

PEDESTRIANS INDISCRIMINATELY BEATEN AND 

SHOT 

I have already read some depositions bearing on the everyday 
life in Cork. Under the new conditions that have obtained there 
during the past three months, under the new reign of terror, there 
are a few sworn statements which will give you an idea of what 
ordinary life is like in Cork at present. 

Sworn Statement of Thomas Roberts, 2 Windsor Terrace, Bally- 

hooley Road, St. Luke's, Cork 

"As I was walking home with two friends on the night of the 14th 
September, 1°20, we were halted at St. Luke's at 9:50 P. M. hy two 
men dressed in dark overcoats and caps. They presented two re- 

1 Kevin Barry's affidavit, detailing the tortures inflicted upon him in 
prison to compel divulgence of information, is reproduced in the Com- 
mission's Report, pp. 90-91. 



791 

vulvcrs at us and asked where we were going. A third stranger, 
whom we had passed, and dressed in a gray overcoat and slouch hat, 
had, as far as I could sec, halted two other men a little further down. 
He was seemingly engaged in searching them, and used the term 'Sinn 
Feen' and filthy language many times. He spoke with a decided Eng- 
lish accent, as did also the two who accosted us. 

"It was very dark at the time, and we told them that we were going 
home. One of them caught me by the throat, and pushed me, whilst 
the other did likewise to one of my friends ; my third friend seeing 
his opportunity, escaped. My second friend managed to escape also, 
and the two strangers turned their attention to me. They jammed me 
up against the wall. The third stranger, either having left the other 
two men go, or hearing the noise, rushed up and fired point blank 
from his revolver at me, the bullet entering my right shoulder and 
skimming the lung. I fell, and they immediately ran away in the direc- 
tion of Military Hill, where the Military Barracks is situated. 

"My friend came and took me home, and some time afterwards I 
was taken in the Corporation ambulance to the North Infirmary, ar- 
riving there at midnight. 

"We were held up twice on this journey by the military. On one 
occasion, on being told that the ambulance contained a man who had 
been shot by them, a military sergeant came into me. I had my right 
shoulder bared, the still unbandaged wound bleeding profusely. He 
caught hold of the wound in a brutal fashion, saying, 'Show it to me !' 
He then searched me. A military car accompanied the ambulance to 
the Infirmary. 

"About four days afterwards I went under an operation, and the 
bullet was extracted from my shoulder. I was in the Infirmary for 
about three weeks, and I am still unable to work. 

"The whole assault happened without the slightest provocation on 
my part. 

"I swear that the foregoing statement is, to the best of my knowl- 
edge and ability, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
and that same was given by me voluntarily. So help me God ! 

(Signed) ; "Thomas Roberts. 

"Sworn in my presence this 16th day of November, 1920. 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Seamus MacGearailt, 

"Chairman, Cove Urban Council." 

OFFICER ADMITS ANONYMOUS THREATS ARE 
OFFICIAL 

The Witness: During one of the raids, one of the many raids on 
the City Hall of Cork, one of the military officers who was engaged 
in the raid admitted the official nature of one of these threatening 
notices that appeared in the press like this I read for you. This par- 
ticular one, as far as I remember, threatened that for every police- 
man or soldier killed, ten or twelve citizens would be shot. I am 
not quite definite as to the particular threat to which it referred, but 
I think it was one of that nature. For that reason, this deposition is 
important, because from the way these other notices appear, it is 
not possible to say they are official. They are merely signed "B. & 
T.'s" or "Secretary Death or Victory League," or something like that. 

Q. Chairman Wood: What is the nature of this? A. This is a 
deposition by John G. McCarthy, 2 Emmet Place, Cork, and it shows 



792 

conclusively that these notices do have an official nature. (Read- 
ing) : 

"I was in a small committee room adjoining the Council Chamber, 
City Hall. Cork, on Thursday, 14th October, 1920, at 11:25 A. M. 1 
heard a shout of 'Hands up !' resounding through the building, and a 
military officer, with four or five soldiers, armed with rifles held at the 
ready, rushed into the room, shouting 'Hands up !' I put my hands 
over my head. He searched my pockets, and closely examined their 
contents. He appeared very excited. 'What is your business here?' 
he said. I replied, 'I am an Arbitrator.' He asked, 'Who sent you 
here?' I said, 'A man whom I met in the street.' He asked me his 
name. I said I didn't know it. 

"At this stage I complained that my arms were tired from holding 
them over my head, and as he had found me unarmed, that I should 
be allowed to put them down. He turned to the soldiers, who had 
had their rifles pointing at me all this time, and said, 'If he moves his 
arms, shoot him through the shoulders. You understand?' One sol- 
dier replied, 'Yes, sir.' He eventually allowed me cross my arms over 
my head. He then ordered the lady, who had been the only other 
occupant of the room when they entered, outside. 

"He turned to me again and said, 'You are a murderer.' I said, 
'You are a liar.' He said, 'If you are not a murderer, you are in 
league with them.' He opened his revolver holster and half drew his 
revolver out. 'Now,' he said, 'I am going to get from you the name 
of the man who told you to come here. You had better think quickly. 
You haven't much time now.' I had during his incessant requests to 
'think' told him that I thought the man's name was Sullivan. This I 
did merely to gain time. He drew his revolver completely out of the 
holster, as he knew I was fooling him ; and the soldiers closed in 
around with me with their rifles levelled at me. I then said forcibly. 
'I will give you no more information. If you will give me a few 
minutes to say a few prayers, you can shoot away.' I said this, as I 
had gauged by this time that he was merely threatening me. At this 
he put his revolver on the table, and the soldiers stepped back. After 
passing many remarks about the cowardly way the soldiers were mur- 
dered in the streets of Dublin in 1916, and concerning those Sinn 
Feiners who go about shooting his friends, and whom he knew all 
about, he said, 'Did you read that document published in the paper 
the other day under the heading, "An extraordinary document?"' I 
said, 'Yes. It was a good joke.' He snapped out, 'That's no joke. 

I know all about that document, and you b fellows had better 

look out.' I said, 'I have some influential friends, including two mem- 
bers of Parliament, who will be interested in your statement, more 
especially coming from an officer.' He pondered awhile, and glaring, 
said. 'You may make what use you like out of it.' Taking from my 
papers an envelope of a letter addressed to me, and which had come 
through the post, he said, 'Is this your name and address?' Replying 
in the affirmative, he placed it in his pocket. 

"Subsequently a tall captain came into the room, and I complained 
of the charges and treatment which had been meted out to me, but he 
disregarded mv statement. He ordered two soldiers to take me out- 
side and stand guard over me. Shortly afterwards the guard was 
withdrawn, and I departed. 

"I swear by the Almighty God that the facts as set forth in my 
testimony are the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
and that same were given by me voluntarily. So help me God. 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Sean G. MacCaktaig. 

"Sworn in my presence this 19th day of October, 1920. 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Domnall O'Ceallacain, 

"Chairman, Cork County Council.'' 



793 

DRUNKEN CONSTABLES FIRE ON REPUBLICAN 

POLICE 

The Witness: This one is by Robert MacDonald, 90 French's 
Avenue, Cove, County Cork. ( Reading I : 

Affidavit of Robert MacDonald 

"About 1 P. M. on Saturday, 20th November, 1920, in company with 
three other men I proceeded to the Baths Hall, Cove, to arrest, in our 
capacity as Republican police, a man in connection with a series of 
robberies and lootings which took place during the early hours of that 
morning." 

The Witness: This is interesting as showing the difficulties of the 
Republican police force in functioning. I Continues reading) : 

"Having arrested the man. the other three men proceeded to take 
him to a place of trial. I delayed a short while in conversation with 
the manager of the Baths Hall, and then followed after them. At the 
exit onto the street, known as Harbor Row, one of the Republican 
police stopped me to tell me of the place of trial. On the opposite 
side of the street I noticed four R. I. C. police standing, in deep con- 
versation. Immediately they saw us, they walked over towards us. 
Wishing to evade arrest, I ran from them, and one of the police im- 
mediately drew a revolver from his pocket. Shouting, 'Halt ! Hands 
up !' they took deliberate aim at tjie same time and fired at us, but 
fortunately missed us. They were under the influence of drink. 

"I swear that the foregoing testimony is to the best of my knowl- 
edge and ability the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
and that same was given by me voluntary. So help me God. 

(Signed in Gaelic) "Roibeaird MacDomnaill. 
"Sworn in my presence this 5th day of December, 1920. 
(Signed in Gaelic) "Seamus MacGearailt, 

"Chairman, Urban Council of Cove, 

"Cork Poor Law Guardian." 

Q. Chairman Wood: The Republican police, in carrying out 
their functions, do not appear in uniform, do they? A. No, sir, no 
uniform. 

IRISH ARMY NOT A "MURDER GANG"; CAPTURED 
POLICE RELEASED UNHARMED 
One of the charges which the British Government is very fond of 
making against the Republican movement in Ireland, and a charge 
which is especially frequently made by British Ministers answering 
in the English House of Commons, is that police and soldiers may 
not walk about in Ireland with safety, but that they are liable to be 
murdered. I think the most definite and clear method of refuting 
that is that I would like to read some extracts taken from the daily 
press in Ireland of a number of cases where a fight has been fought, 
either a fight in the open or an attack on a barrack, where that fight 
has resulted in the capture of either policemen or soldiers. In- 
variably, absolutely invariably, on these men being disarmed, they 
have been released unharmed. I think that shows in the most con- 
clusive way the basis there is for the British charge that the Irish 
Republican Army is a "murder gang." Although laboring under 



794 

many disadvantages, the Irish Republican Army has as glorious a 
record as any army in the world. They are neither murderers nor 
members of any murder gang. (Reading) : 

"The 'terrible provocation' given to British troops and police in Ire- 
land. Soldiers and police who fell into the hands of 'murderers' 
and what became of them: 

"The English press in its comments upon the burning and sacking 
of Irish towns and cities by British troops and police has stated that 
it understands 'the terrible provocation' to which these British troops 
and police have been subjected. The following are a few of the inci- 
dents of 'the terrible provocation' given to the British armed forces in 
Ireland :" 

The Witness: This is May 8th, reported in the press May 10th. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: What year was that? A. 1920. I will give 
in each .case the date the attack occurred and the date the report ap- 
peared in the press. This runs from May, June, and July through 
August, 1920. (Reading) : 

Occurred, May 8 — Reported in Press, May 10. 

Two policemen captured at Kilbeggan, County Meath. Disarmed and 

released. 
Occurred, May 8 — Reported in Press, May 10. 

Cloyne, County Cork, police barracks taken. Six policemen captured. 

Disarmed and released. 
Occurred, May 28 — Reported in Press, May 30. 

Two policemen captured at Ballinagh, County Cavan. Disarmed and 

released. 
Occurred, May 30 — Reported in Press, June 1. 

One policeman captured at Dundalk, County Louth. Disarmed and 

released. 
Occurred, June 1 — Reported in Press, June 2. 

Thirty soldiers captured at Dublin. Disarmed and released. 
Occurred, June 4 — Reported in Press, June 5. 

Drangan, County Tipperary, police barracks taken. Eight policemen 

captured. Disarmed and released. 
Occurred, June 5 — Reported in Press, June 7. 

Eleven soldiers and one policeman captured at Carrigtwohill, County 

Cork. Disarmed and released. 
Occurred, June 9 — Reported in Press, June 11. 

Two military dispatch riders captured at Cork City. Disarmed and 

released. 
Occurred, June 9 — Reported in Press, June 11. 

Military dispatch rider captured at Carrigrohane, County Cork. Dis- 
armed and released. 
Occurred, June 15 — Reported in Press, June 17. 

Two policemen captured at Tipperary. Disarmed and released. 
Occurred, June 17 — Reported in Press, June 18. 

Two policemen captured at Cookstown, County Tyrone. Disarmed 

and released. 
Occurred, June 19 — Reported in Press, June 22. 

Six soldiers captured at Brosna, County Kerry. Disarmed and re- 
leased. 
Occurred, June 20 — Reported in Press, June 22. 

Two policemen captured at Monivea, County Galway. Disarmed and 

released. 
Occurred, June 23 — Reported in Press, June 24. 

Officer and soldier captured at Drumsna, County Leitrim. Disarmed 

and released. 



795 

Occurred, June 23— Reported in Press, June 25. 

Seven soldiers captured at Ennis, County Clare. Disarmed and . re- 
leased. 

Occurred, June 26— Reported in Press, June 28. 

Brigadier General Lucas, Colonel Dunford, and Colonel 'lyrell cap- 
tured in Cork County. Dunford and Tyrell released. Lucas escaped 
a month later. 

Occurred, June 28— Reported in Press, June 30. 

Two policemen captured at Crosses Green, Cork City. Disarmed and 
released. 

Occurred, July 3— Reported in Press, July 5. 

Three soldiers captured in Cork City. Disarmed and released. 

Occurred, July 4 — Reported in Press, July 5. 

Two policemen captured at Claremorriss, County Mayo. Disarmed 
and released. 

Occurred, July 4 — Reported in Press, July 6. 

Nine soldiers captured at Mohill, County Leitrim. Disarmed and re- 
leased. 

Occurred, July 9 — Reported in Press, July 12. 

Four policemen captured at Kilfmane, County Cork. Disarmed and 
released. 

Occurred, July 10 — Reported in Press, July 12. 

Two policemen captured at Rathduff, County Cork. Disarmed and 
released. 

Occurred, July 13 — Reported in Press, July 14. 

Six soldiers and four policemen captured at Emly, County Limerick. 
Disarmed and released. 

Occurred, July 14 — Reported in Press, July 16. 

One policeman captured at Mount Talbot, County Roscommon. Dis- 
armed and released. 

Occurred, July 16 — Reported in Press, July 20. 

Three policemen at Curry, County Roscommon. Disarmed and re- 
leased. 

Occurred, July 16 — Reported in Press, July 20. 

Three policemen captured at Kiltimagh, County Mayo. Disarmed and 
released. 

Occurred, July 19 — Reported in Press, July 20. 

Nine soldiers captured at Dublin. Disarmed and released. 

Occurred, July 20 — Reported in Press, July 21. 

Eleven soldiers captured at Tralee, County Kerry. Disarmed and 
released. 

Occurred, July 22 — Reported in Press, July 23. 

Ten marines captured in Kerry. Disarmed and released. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Do you want to read the whole list of 
them? A. If you do not think it is advisable, sir, no. But I think 
this is important, because at every available opportunity the Irish 
Republican Army, of which, you understand, every Irish Republican 
is, and, I may say, justly is proud, has been described by the British 
Government as a "murder gang." I have facts here that will show 
you, and will show anybody clearly that the Irish Republican Army 
is not a murder gang; that the record shows clearly that they have 
not and never have been a murder gang. When fights have oc- 
curred they have been clean fights; and when the fights are over, 
they have behaved as any army in the world would where there are 
conditions of valor and decency maintained. 

Q. I quite understand that, sir, but I thought it might save your 



796 

voice and your time by just giving us the summary of it. A. Cer- 
tainly, sir. (Reading) : 

"It will be seen from these incidents that in the four months of 
May. June, July and August. 1920, 269 armed British troops and po- 
lice fell into the hands of the Irish Republican Army, which the British 
Premier and the British press represent as a 'huge murder society.' 
None of these British agents, in spite of the utmost provocation given 
for many years by them, was injured. They were treated with the 
full courtesy due to prisoners of war, and were released as speedily 
as possible, the vast majority of them not being held more than a few 
hours." 

The Witness: That contrasts very strongly and very glaringly 
with the treatment meted out to our men when they have been 
taken prisoners. 

ESCAPING ENEMY NEVER SHOT IN BACK BY 
IRISH ARMY 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, have you any cases where a 
member of the English soldiery or the English Constabulary, where 
he walked away and was shot by a member of the Irish Army in the 
back? A. No, sir, never, never! 

Q. But you have cases of the reverse, where a member of the 
Irish Army got away, and was shot by members of the British 
forces in the back? A. A great many of them. 

Q. Chairman Wood: How much longer do you want to continue, 
Mr. Lord Mayor? A. Well, I think another quarter of an hour 
would enable us to break off conveniently. 

Q. We do not want to unduly fatigue you. It is very interesting. 
A. It is all right, sir, all right. 

A RECORD OF ENEMY ACTIVITIES IN CORK 

I have here reports that have been compiled by ourselves in Cork 
as a kind of record of the events of the month. I have three or 
four of them here, and it will not be necessary to read them all. But 
if you do not desire to hear them now, I will run through one of 
them so as to give you an idea of what an accurate and complete 
record of the activities of the enemy in Cork is like. 

Mr. Doyle: Mr. Chairman, the Lord Mayor has come for three 
thousand miles, and the evidence he has is most important; and I 
think he should be allowed to give it in his own way, and that he 
should be allowed to give it in his own time. And I suggest that, 
if the Commission wishes it, you give him time to do so tomorrow 
morning, because it leads up to the burning of Cork, which, I think, 
outrivals anything about the burning of Louvain, or anything that 
has been recorded of the Germans at their worst in Belgium. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: How long will it take? A. Ten 
minutes or a quarter of an hour. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Would you rather give it now, or start 



797 

there in the morning? A. Well, perhaps that would be as well. 
Or we can cover these summaries and the lists of the murders now. 

Commissioner Thomas : May I suggest, if we are coming to the 
particular events in Cork, might it not be a good plan, if there are 
figures summarizing the murders of civilians in Cork, that we 
should have them now? That will give us a background for the 
recent facts about the burning of Cork, which we can take up to- 
morrow morning. 

Senator Norris: Yes, if he has those figures. He has given us 
the figures up to August. 

The Witness: Yes, I have them, sir. 

Chairman Wood: You gave us the record from January, 1919, up 
to August first, 1920. 

The Witness: Well, perhaps it would be as well, if you would 
like, that I start there in the morning. 

Chairman Wood: Then we will adjourn to 9:30 tomorrow morn- 
ing. Can the Commission have an executive session now? 

I Adjournment 4:45 P. M.) 



FIFTH HEARINGS 

Session Two 

Before the Commission sitting at the Hotel LaFayette, Washing- 
ton, D. C, Friday, January 14, 1921. 

Session ealled to order by Chairman Wood at ten o'clock A. M. 

Chairman Wood: The hearings will resume this morning with 
the Lord Mayor of Cork continuing his statement. I want to put on 
the record for reference this pamphlet, "Facts About Ireland for 
the Consideration of America," supplied by the delegates of the 
Protestant Churches of Ireland. I will have it marked so that we 
can refer to it. 

(The pamphlet referred to was marked "No. 1. January 14, 
1921.") 

Chairman Wood: Proceed, Mr. O'Callaghan. 

TESTIMONY OF LORD MAYOR DONAL 
O'CALLAGHAN— (Continued) 
Corrections for the Sake of Accuracy 

The Witness: I should like to refer to a few inaccuracies in the 
reports of yesterday's hearing. One report, to which mv attention 
has been called this morning, relates to one of the depositions 
which I read last evening, that of Mr. Thomas Hales of Bandon, 
County Cork. It is a lengthy deposition which I read last evening; 
and I find that some papers have certain statements therein attrib- 
uted to myself. That, of course, I wish to correct. 

There is also one slight correction I have to make with re- 
gard to the evidence I gave yesterday. I understand that I referred 
in error, and unintentionally, in dealing with the meeting in Dublin 
of a section of the police force asking to be relieved of the duty of 
carrying arms, and asking to be confined to police duties as such 
peace officers only, that I mentioned the auxiliary police. If so, 
that is incorrect. The body that took that action and held that 
meeting was the reserve force of the constabulary, the reserve force 
of the ordinary police force, and not the special auxiliary force. 

Q. Commissioner Newman : You mean the second group to 
which you referred? A. Yes. 

Q. What you said about the Dublin police is correct? A. Yes. 
But the statement as to the auxiliary force is incorrect. It is the 
reserve force retained at the depot in Dublin who took that action. 

Q. Are not the Dublin police called the Metropolitan Police? 
A. Yes. The men referred to on that occasion are the special re- 
serve force of the ordinary police force, who are retained in the 
poldce depot in Dublin, retained for emergencies, to be shipped to 

798 



799 

any particular part of the country where they happen lo be re- 
quired. 

CHARACTER OF MEN ON REPUBLICAN COUNCILS 

There are just a few matters which I should like to deal with as 
supplementary to the matters dealt with yesterday. I dealt yesterday 
with the public boards. I might refer to the personnel of these 
boards, as I should like to make it clear that these public boards 
are made up of representative men, and that every one of them 
have on them men of standing. 

Q. Chairman Wood: The county councils? A. The county 
councils and the corporations. In the county councils the vast ma- 
jority of the members are large farmers. There is also, of course, 
the labor representation. In the cities there may be representatives 
on the corporations of university professors, merchants, and of 
course the labor representatives; but the representation in no case 
is confined to any particular class of the community. 

I should like to supplement that in the Cork Corporation we 
have members like Professor Stockley, a deposition from whom 
was read yesterday, and another of whose depositions will be read 
today. Professor Stockley is a graduate of the National Univer- 
sity of Ireland and Professor of English Literature in Cork Uni- 
versity College. Professor O'Reilly is also a professor at the Cork 
University College and registrar at that college. He also is a mem- 
ber of the Cork Corporation. 

There are also some of the most prominent men in business, such 
as Mr. Barry Eagan, who is the proprietor of one of the largest 
jewelry stores in Cork, one of the stores which was burned out re- 
cently; Mr. Frank Dailey, who is managing director of the Sutton 
Stores of Cork, one of the largest coal and agricultural implement 
houses in the city; and so on. 

Q. What is the religion of these men? A. The religion would 
be, I think, Catholic; yes, Roman Catholic. 

Q. But on the Corporation Council there are a number of Prot- 
estants? A. Yes; but the majority of course would be Catholic. 
Professor Stockley was at one time professor in Ottawa University. 

THE MURDER OF PRIESTS 

On yesterday I referred to attacks on citizens and murders of citi- 
zens generally. I should like now to refer particularly to priests. 
There have been recently at least two glaring murders of Catholic 
priests. Father Griffin, who was one to be murdered, was, 1 under- 
stand, in receipt of an invitation from your Commission to attend 
here and give evidence, and had actually applied for his passport 
to enable him to come here, when he was taken, and after being 



800 

missing for about a week, was discovered murdered in a boo; near 
his home. 

Q. Was that in Galway? A. Yes. Still more recently there 
was the murder of Canon Magner, who was shot. 

Q. Do you know whether there was any publicity given to the 
fact that Father Griffin had received an invitation from us, and that 
it was on that account that he was kidnapped, or anything of that 
sort? A. That has been the general impression, the general ru- 
mor; but so far as publicity is concerned, I do not remember at the 
moment ever having read it in the press. But that certainly was 
taken generally in Ireland as the explanation of the matter. 

Q. He had not been particularly active, or a person obnoxious 
to the authorities on account of his Sinn Fein activities before that 
time? A. Not so far as I understand, beyond the fact that he was 
a member of the organization. He was, of course, a Republican. 

Q. You did not know him personally, anyway, did you? A. 
No, I did not. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: I would like to know whether the 
British Government ever took any steps at all to discover the mur- 
derer of Father Griffin. A. No, sir; they did not. There have 
been a number of cases apart from actual murders where priests 
have been assaulted, where they have been arrested, tried and sen- 
tenced. In Cork on the night of the big fire there were two priests 
at least assaulted. They were knocked down, beaten, their clothes 
torn, and in one case, at all events, a demand made on them that 
they should repeat the words, "To hell with the Pope." 

Q. Major Newman: Have you their names? A. I have their 
names, yes. One of them was Father MacSweeney of Saint Peter 
and Paul's, Cork. I will give you the name of the other later. I 
might add that the raids that I spoke of yesterday are not confined 
to private houses, but were also on churches, parochial houses, and 
so on. 

CITIZENS MURDERED INDISCRIMINATELY BY 

BOMBS 

A new development also in the murders complained of was the 
throwing of bombs. Until then the murders had been perpetrated 
by shooting, but within the past two months in Cork there have 
been two cases where murder has been perpetrated by bombing. 
In one case, at about half-past nine, in Patrick Street, Cork, a bomb 
was thrown at a number of young men. Three of them were killed, 
not outright; one was killed outright, and the other two died shortly 
after admission to the infirmary; and a number, about sixteen or 
eighteen, were seriously wounded. 

Q. Commissioner Newman : Were the bombs thrown by the 
military? A. By the police. In the second case, within two or 



801 

three days of that, a bomb was thrown into the workshop of an 
undertaker in the Blackpool District, and two men were killed. 
One of the results of that was that in Cork, where we have a special 
Republican plot for men who were murdered at the bauds of the 
enemy in the city cemetery, to that plot on two occasions there were 
two funerals in which three coffins were carried together, in both 
cases. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Do the police or the military carry these 
bombs openly? Have they been seen carrying them? Of what 
nature are the bombs? A. In some cases people have declared 
they have seen the small bombs, small Mills bombs, carried in the 
hands. 

Q. You have no deposition of anybody who has actually seen 
a bomb thrown? A. No, I have not. 

Q. What you are telling us now is reports in the city? A. The 
definite facts are the two bombs which took place, to which I have 
referred; and the other is report. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: That has not been denied by the British authori- 
ties, has it, — that those bombs have been thrown? A. Oh, no. 

Q. So they are accepted as true? A. That is so. 

Q. Major Newman: Do you know anything about the circum- 
stances which led up to the throwing of those bombs? A. No, sir. 
I know of nothing which would in any way explain why that should 
happen. I knew personally two of the three men who were killed 
in the first bombing outrage; but I do not know of any reason why 
they particularly should have been dealt with in that drastic fashion. 
They were, of course, Republicans, members of the Republican 
Army; but I know of nothing particularly in their cases which 
would account for their being dealt with in that drastic fashion. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas : Do you mean to suggest by such 
statements as that and the one which you have made previously that 
merely to be Republican is sufficient reason for death or torture, if 
by accident or whim or otherwise this particular Republican re- 
ceives a visitation of the various types of the military forces? A. 
That is exactly what I mean, yes. 

PRIESTS BEATEN AND ABUSED 

The name of the second priest to whom I referred was Father 
McCarthy. (Reading): "Reverend P. MacSweeney " 

Q. Chairman Wood: What is that from? A. The Irish 
Weekly Independent of December 18. 

Q. And where is it published? A. It is published in Dublin. 
I Continues reading ) : 

"Reverend P. MacSweeney, Chaplain to the Good Shepherds and 
Professor of Farranferris, while returning home by tram about nine 
o'clock, is alleged to have been taken out of the tram at St. Luke's 



002 

corner and assaulted by five or six armed men, who boarded and 
stopped the tram. It is stated they tore off Father MacSweeney's over- 
coat, coat, vest and collar, and kicked his breviary. The other passen- 
gers, including three or four women and seven or eight men, were 
ordered off the tram also, and the men made to stand against the 
wall. One of the armed men said, pointing to Father MacSweeney : 

'We have a b Papist at last.' The laymen were allowed to go, 

and then Father MacSweeney was knocked down and ordered to write 
'To hell with the Pope.' He said that surely they did not expect a 
Catholic priest to do that. After a consultation he was again as- 
saulted and told, 'Clear !' and his clothes kicked towards him. He 
took his clothes in his arms and ran to his residence, a few hundred 
yards further on. One of his assailants spoke with a marked North- 
ern accent. 

"Rev. F. McCarthy, Chaplain to the Incurable Hospital, while walk- 
ing from St. Patrick's church to his residence in St. Luke's the same 
night, at about 9:15, was halted by armed men at Summerhill, as- 
saulted, and then prodded with a bayonet and told to run. He ran, 
and five shots were fired, none of which took effect. Fortunately he 
got home safely." 

The Witness: While that is the press report, and while I have 
not actually spoken to either of the two men concerned, I know that 
the facts are correct, inasmuch as Professor Stockley, with whom we 
have already been dealing, is a personal friend of both men, and 
he has verified the facts. 

REPUBLICAN FUNERALS RESTRICTED BY ARMED 

TROOPS 

In Ireland also, having entered on this murder campaign, all that 
was left* in the cases where a murder was perpetrated, to the friends 
and sympathizers of the murdered was to pay their last respects by 
attending a funeral demonstration. The British Government then 
issued an order limiting the attendance at the funerals of these men. 
limiting them to fifty, — fifty relatives and friends; and it has often 
happened in towns or cities, as it has in Cork, that practically all 
the people of the city turned out at a particular funeral, wishing to 
pay their last respects to the particular man or men who had been 
murdered, but they are prevented by the military forces. On these 
occasions the funeral starts from the church. The streets are 
thronged, and when the fifty or the hundred, as the case may be, 
have fallen in after the hearse bearing the coffin, the military then 
prevent any more from joining, and the remainder of the .people 
have to remain on the sidewalks and look on. They are prevented 
from paying that last tribute of respect. The order dealing with 
that particular restriction, in these cases, is delivered on the morn- 
ing of the funeral, with the result that in most cases the order is 
delivered while the requiem mass, which usually precedes the burial, 
is in progress. In some cases, especially in one case which I re- 
member distinctly, the case of one of the men who died on the 
hunger strike in the Cork jail, Fitzgerald, in that case while the 
Church of St. Peter and Paul in Cork was thronged at the requiem 



803 

mass, the soldiers arrived outside, entered the church, and marched 
right through the church from the door at the extreme end to the 
altar, or just outside the altar rails, where the priests were officiating, 
and there and then served on Father O'Reilly, who was parish priest, 
the order prohibiting the taking part in the procession of more than 
fifty relatives and friends. To insure that these orders are carried 
out, the funeral procession is accompanied by lorries, armed cars, 
and tanks, which parade the route to the cemetery. 

Q. Major Newman: Are there many tanks in Ireland? A. 0, 
there would be quite a large number. Of course, I could not give 
you an estimate. 

Q. It is a common occurrence to see them? A. O, yes, daily. 
They pass through the streets daily, yes. 

REPUBLICAN LEADERS SEIZED AS HOSTAGES 

One of the most recent developments in general conduct has been 
the issuing of an official order by the military authorities stating 
that in the future when military cars and lorries pass through the 
streets or go on journeys, that prominent Republicans will be taken 
within the cars as hostages. The order in the case of Cork was is- 
sued by the General Officer Commanding, and it reads : 

NOTICE 

"Notice is hereby given that on account of the numerous attacks 
which have been and are being made by rebel forces on motors and 
lorries conveying forces of the Crown, officers and leaders of the rebel 
forces (commonly known as the Irish Republican Army) will, in 
future, be carried in government motors and lorries. 

"Given under mv hand at Cork this eighteenth day of December, 
1920. 

(Signed) : "H. A. Higginson, 
"Brigadier General, Military Governor." 

That has been carried out pretty generally, and one of the men 
who has been arrested and so taken during these drives as a hostage 
for the military has been the Mayor of Kilkenny. Following that, 
while the Mayor was still retained under arrest, the Mayor's brother 
wrote protesting and asking for information, but I have not heard 
that he got any reply. 

ATTACKS ON LORRIES CARRYING SOLDIERS 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: This order of General Higginson 
states that it is done to prevent attacks on lorries filled with soldiers. 
Was it customary in the City of Cork for the Irish Republican Army 
to make such attacks on motor lorries? A. Not customary. There 
have been such attacks. 

Q. About how many? A. I know of only one definitely. As 
to a second, which was alleged to have occurred on the night of the 



804 

fire, the general belief was that such attack did not take place, inas- 
much as it was alleged lo have taken place within a hundred or a 
couple of hundred yards of the large military barracks in Cork. 

Q. Major Newman: You say you know of one case? A. There 
was one case where a lorry was attacked some months since. It is 
the only case I know of where such a car was attacked. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Is it not the fact that ambuscades 
or ambushes, where they are carried out, are in the country rather 
than in the cities near barracks? A. Yes, that is it. 

Q. Major Newman: Could you tell us about this case, the de- 
tails of which you know? A. I cannot give you the facts. As I 
remember them from the press reports at the time, the facts were 
that at about a quarter of nine 

Q. At night? A. No, in the morning. A military lorry was 
proceeding on Barracks Street and that it was attacked by revolver 
fire. It was also alleged that some bombs were thrown. One sol- 
dier was badly wounded and died subsequently, and some of the 
other soldiers were wounded. These briefly were the facts in that 
particular case. 

Q. Were any of the attacking party killed or injured? A. No, 
they were not, as reported. 

Q. Do you remember how many there were in the attacking 
party? A. As far as I remember, the press at that time gave the 
number of the attacking party as being in all about twenty. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Mr. Lord Mayor, in the case of such 
attacks, either in Cork or in the country, do the members of the 
attacking party wear any insignia whatsoever to designate them as 
members of an armed and disciplined force? A. No, not that I 
know of. I do not think so. 

Q. To outward appearances they are seemingly attacks by civil- 
ians, or men in civilian clothes? A. Yes, that is so. 

BRITISH GOVERNMENT ORDERS INDISCRIMI- 
NATE DESTRUCTION OF HOUSES AS REPRISAL 

Q. Chairman Wood: Since you are speaking of ambuscades 
and ambushes, recently an order has been issued, as I understand 
it, by the military authorities in connection with the destruction of 
buildings and so forth near where an ambuscade or ambush took 
place. Have you a copy of that, or can you tell us something about 
that? A. No, I have not, but for a considerable time where an 
attack of that kind has taken place on a section of the Crown forces, 
it has been followed generally by the destruction of a number of 
dwelling houses in the particular vicinity, and in many cases by 
murders as well. The British Government have always denied, until 
quite recently, that these were reprisals. They always took the 



805 

altitude that the claim that these were reprisals was quite wrong 
until quite recently, when it has heen stated openly and definitely 
in the British House of Parliament that the order has heen issued 
not only enabling; but definitely commanding that houses where 
these things have occurred may be and should be destroyed. The 
statement that at any time such attacks have been made from houses 
or that shots have been fired from houses is entirely incorrect, be- 
cause it is obvious that in view of the danger existing that these 
houses would be destroyed, attacks therefore would be made in the 
open. If the shooting took place from the house, of course it was 
absolutely certain that that house went. But it seemed that a house 
where there was no firing at all took place, and which simply hap- 
pened to be in the vicinity of the attack, would as often in the 
course of events be used for such a purpose. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Following Dr. Thomas' question, has an order 
been issued in Ireland that no man should be allowed to wear a 
uniform? A. 0, yes. 

Q. Or an insignia of any kind? A. Yes. 

REASON FOR AMBUSH OF POLICEMEN 

Q. Major Newman: While we are on the subject, you gave us 
yesterday some figures as to the killings that had occurred during 
the most of last year. A. Yes. 

Q. Have you any figures as to the number of police or military 
who have been killed? A. No, I have not any returns on that. 

Q. We have had very little testimony, — we have tried to get it, 
because the Commission is endeavoring to ascertain all of the facts 
in this situation, — but we have not got very much testimony as to 
the attacks by the civilians on the military force or the police. We 
would appreciate very much if you have any information of that 
kind you can give us. All we have practically is what we read in 
the newspapers here that attacks do occur. If you can enlighten us 
any on that we would like to have you do so. A. No, I have not 
any returns, but I can offset it for you to a large extent in this way; 
that even with a return with the number of soldiers or policemen 
who have been killed in Ireland, had we that return, it would not 
be such as would counterbalance the figures in the statement I gave, 
because it is in an entirely different category. In practically all 
cases, with certain isolated exceptions where particular reasons ob- 
tain, these men are always killed in attacks, in fighting. In these 
attacks and in that fighting there are as many if not more, — at all 
events there are also a large number of the attacking forces killed 
and wounded. But you have not got any testimony on that because 
we, the Irish people and the Irish Army, do not complain about that. 
In so far as military operations happen to be necessary, some cas- 
ualties of course must take place on both sides. So that the cas- 



806 

ualties on the police side would nearly offset the casualties in actual 
operations on the Republican side, which you have not got. The 
testimony that you are getting is as to outrages and murders, en- 
tirely dissociated from military operations wantonly perpetrated 
upon the civilian population. 

Q. I understand that. But is it true or is it not true that there 
have been cases of killing of policemen from ambush, or what they 
term murders? A. From ambush? 

Q. The reports from British sources always refer to them as "a 
policeman murdered" or "a member of the military murdered." 
A. 0, yes, policemen have been killed from ambush, and just as I 
have tried to explain to you, the men ambushing them have fre- 
quently been killed. 

Q. The point in my mind is this, that we have not got very much 
information as to how that has occurred, where and how frequently, 
how it is done, and so on. A. I understand. I have not got any 
data bearing on that. 

Q. Is there anything in your knowledge that you can give us as 
to that, — not necessarily statistics? A. No, I do not know that 
there is, except that generally the casualties in these attacks are not 
so heavy. As a general rule the casualties on either side run some- 
thing like two or three men, very often one man, and very, very 
frequently these attacks are made and finished without any loss of 
life at all. 

Q. Just what do you mean by "these attacks?" What do you 
have in mind? A. The attacks you referred to, the attacks from 
ambush on military vehicles or on patrols. These things do not 
lead to loss of life on a large scale, an attack of the kind you 
refer to. 

Q. What would be the cause of an attack of that kind? What 
is the background for it? What would lead up to it? Why would 
it happen? A. The main reason, I take it, would be the disarma- 
ment. It would be for the purpose of getting arms, which the Gov- 
ernment renders impossible in any other way by prohibition. 

Q. Do you know of any qases in which attacks have been made 
and arms secured? I had wondered if you could give us one or 
two typical cases of that character? A. Yes. I gave you quite a 
number of these yesterday. If you remember, there was quite a 
long list that I read, or that I was reading, until it was suggested 
that it was too long to finish, of cases where policemen had been 
attacked, disarmed, and released. At the time I read it to show that 
where policemen have been captured, they have been released after 
being disarmed. You had quite a list of them handed in yesterday. 

Q. The point you were making in that was to show, as I recall 
it that these men were treated decently? A. Yes. 



807 

Q. And that there was some idea of recognizing the honors of 
war? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The point in my mind is that we would like to have, if you 
could give it to us, some rather definite information as to attacks by 
the Sinn Fein or citizens upon the military authorities or police. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Would you say, Mr. Lord Mayor, that the 
attacks, a list of which you gave yesterday, had for their motive the 
obtaining of arms in almost every case? A. I should say that that 
was the object in every case. In some cases, for instance, in an at- 
tack which took place on the police, there would be as a reason the 
attempt to release one further grip of the British on Ireland; but in 
every case one of the reasons, and a very important reason, would 
be the procurement of arms, inasmuch as the arms must be pro- 
cured, and they cannot be procured in any other way. 

This (indicating) is a copy, I think, of the statement I referred 
to, which was read yesterday and handed in, and it gives — the dif- 
ferent dates running from May down, instances of two policemen 
captured and disarmed and released, and so on. For instance, 
May 8th, in Cloyne, 6 policemen were captured in the attack on 
the police barracks, and they were disarmed and released. 

MILITARY ACTIVITIES OF REPUBLICAN ARMY 

Q. In the instances to which these refer, should they be con- 
sidered military activities of the Republican army? A. 0, yes, 
I should think so, — speaking, of course, without any particular 
knowledge of the particular case, but generally taking the descrip- 
tion of the particular attack, I should say so. 

Q. Take, for instance, the matter of the police barracks taken, 
does that occur frequently? A. There are not very many police 
barracks left to be taken, so it does not happen very frequently. 
But most of the police barracks in Ireland have been wiped out. 
Practically all of the smaller police barracks which were scattered 
over the country districts, all of those have been either wiped 
out by military operations or evacuated by the British Government. 

Q. And where do they mobilize? A. The police are cen- 
tered in the large towns and cities. The smallest of their barracks 
have been burned out, and they have fallen back on the larger 
barracks and concentrated, in Cork for instance, in four large bar- 
racks, having evacuated all the small barracks which were thrown 
around the outskirts of the city. 

Q. Has there been any operation at all that would be comparable 
to what we understand occurred in modern warfare, such as a mili- 
tary engagement in which one side occupies a certain place and 
the other side occupies a certain place, and anything like a battle 



808 

ensues? A. No, sir, I do not recall anything of that nature, ex- 
cept where something like that developed in the case of an attack 
on a barracks of a large nature, but not as such. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: If I recall the gist of certain pre- 
vious testimony, it would seem that the position of the Irish Re- 
publicans was about this with regard to military activities: that 
they were guided in those matters by questions of expediency; that 
there was a state of war, but it was not, however, expedient in the 
present conditions in Ireland to conduct open warfare, because 
obviously the Irish would be wiped out. Therefore they are 
obliged to carry on their operations in this way that has been 
indicated, by attacks on barracks, by occasional ambushes of sol- 
diers. That you regard this as acting within the lines of military 
procedure, but you are restrained from open warfare by prac- 
tical considerations such as would appeal to any general at any 
time in war with the English. But your complaint is against what 
happens in these occasional encounters, and the mistreatment of 
the civilian population, who even under the laws of war are en- 
titled to decent treatment at the hands of a foreign army. Is not 
that a statement of your position? A. That is exactly so. 

REPUBLICAN ARMY WEARS NO UNIFORM 

Q. May I recur to something that Mr. Doyle asked a while 
ago? I understand, of course, that the wearing of the Irish Repub- 
lican uniform was proscribed in Ireland. My question was rather 
this: whether on the occasion of these attacks there was any insignia 
at all which tended to differentiate these soldiers from the aver- 
age civilian population? I assume that there might be reasons 
for such differentiation ; that is, for instance, that the attacking 
party might know each other; and, secondly, in order that they 
might distinguish themselves, if captured, from the civilian popu- 
lation, so as to avoid giving any excuse to the British that they 
could not distinguish, that they were living in a country where 
every man was an enemy. That was the reason I asked the question, 
not because I did not know that the wearing of a regular uniform 
had been proscribed by the British. A. Yes; of course, it is very 
difficult to see, I think, how such a badge other than uniform could 
be worn, apart from the other reasons. 

DISCIPLINE IN THE REPUBLICAN ARMY 

Q. Major Newman: There is another question that I would 
like to ask. In maintaining discipline in the Republican army, do 
you know of any cases in which members of the army have been 
disciplined for improper conduct toward prisoners, or improper 
acts of any kind? A. I do, yes. 



809 

Q. If so, how is that done? What were the circumstances of 
it? A. The cases where that arose are not very numerous. As a 
matter of fact, I only remember one case in Cork where anything 
of that kind did occur. In the case of any ordinary, minor offense, 
of course, the member would simply be reprimanded or cautioned; 
but where the offense is serious, and there was only one such 
case in Cork, the man or men concerned are expelled from the 
organization. 

Q. Could you tell us the circumstances of this one case? A. 
No, I do not think I could go into that. 

Q. You would prefer not to do that? A. Yes. It was a case 
where a certain very small number, three or four men, were guilty 
of certain conduct that was considered to be prejudicial to the in- 
terests of the organization as such and to the country, and those 
men were expelled from the organization. That in itself, especially 
to members of the Republican Army, was the severest punishment 
which could possibly be meted out to these men. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Do I understand these quasi-mili- 
tary operations, or military operations, are carried on under the 
general direction of properly constituted military authorities, of- 
ficers and staff? They are not carried out on the initiative of local 
groups, are they? A. There is a certain matter of doubt as to 
how far it might be advisable to discuss the military organization of 
the Republican Army in Ireland. But I think your point would be 
covered by a general statement that both army and military opera- 
tions may very safely be taken as being controlled and disciplined 
in Ireland. 

WANTON MURDER AND ATTACKS ON WOMEN 

To return to the everyday life question with which I tried to 
deal yesterday, there is one particular situation which I would like 
to supplement a little today. That is the attacks on women in 
Ireland. It has been frequently said that women at least are held 
immune and are not treated in a cruel or a brutal fashion. There 
are just a few instances which I would like to read to you as an 
example of what does occur. You heard yesterday in some of 
the depositions accounts of how women were treated in casual raids 
and in night raids. These are some others of a far more serious 
nature. 

There is the first case of all of Mrs. Ellen Quinn of Slagle, who 
was murdered by constabulary. Mrs. Quinn was sitting outside <>( 
her house with a child in her arms when a military lorry passed. 
Without any reason that I can see, or that I can imagine that is 
conceivable, these men fired and shot the poor woman dead. 1 



1 See Commissioner's Report, p. 79. 



810 

Q. Major Newman: When was that? A. That has been about 
two months since, two or three months since. October 15th Eng- 
lish constabulary forced an entry into several Republican houses 
at Clogheen, County Tipperary, and threatened to cut off the hair 
of three young girls. Two hours later they returned and cropped 
the hair of a girl of 18 years. 

Q. Do you know of any reason for that? A. No, sir. 

Q. Other witnesses have mentioned instances of hair being 
bobbed. One of them, I think, said it was because of her friend- 
ship with certain people that they disapproved of. Do you know 
anything about that? A. Friendly with certain people? 

Q. Yes, presumably people that were on their marked list. A. 
I don't know what the cause was in this particular case. 

Q. Senator Walsh: I think the claim made here was that cer- 
tain ?inn Fein leaders or soldiers clipped hair off of Irish girls 
who associated with British soldiers. A. Yes. 

Q. And that was the commencement of clipping hair; and that 
later the British started clipping the hair off of the Irish girls 
who would not accept their invitations to go in their company. 
A. It is possible that such was the case. I do not not know that 
that is correct. I merely wanted to run through these to give an 
idea of the general treatment of girls. October 17th, Miss Glynn 
was fired upon and wounded by English constabulary in Anbally- 
Cummer, County Gal way. No attack was made on the constabulary. 
It was daylight when Miss Glynn was wounded. October 17th: 
after midnight English constabulary attacked the residence of Mr. 
P. J. McCooey of Tubbercurry, County Sligo, who had resigned 
from the constabulary after the sacking of that town. Bombs were 
thrown into the house and many volleys of rifle fire were fired 
through the windows. Miss Brabazen, sister-in-law of Mr. McCooey, 
was, wounded in the head; and his little son had his forehead gashed 
by a bullet. 

October 18. Mr. Austin Brannan, member of the Clare County 
Council, writes that when his home was burned down by English 
constabulary his mother and sisters were not allowed to get clothes, 
and had to go out in their bare feet. They were then driven 
along the road with blows from rifle butts to see the hay barn on 
fire. 

October 20. Miss Peggy Brosnan of Abbeyfeale, County Lim- 
erick, was fired upon and wounded by English constabulary in 
broad day while playing in the street outside of her house. There 
was no attack on the constabulary. 1 

October 21. Miss Mary Lordan of Coolanagh, County Cork, 
and her mother were taken from their beds by a party of Eng- 

1 See Mr. Broderick's testimony. 



811 

lish constabulary. They were questioned as to the whereabouts of 
Mrs. Lordan's sons. They refused to answer. Miss Lordan was 
then struck in the face and knocked down. The mother and daugh- 
ter were then taken from the house, which the constabulary then 
sprinkled with paraffin and set on fire. 

October 22. A party of some 12 English constabulary raided 
the house of Miss Babe Hogan of Miltown-Malbay, County Clare, 
who is secretary of the Cumann na m'Ban (Women's National 
League) of that district. Three of them held Miss Hogan while a 
fourth cut off her hair. The house was surrounded by constabulary 
during this operation to prevent the escape of their victim. 

October 23. The English soldiers forcibly entered the licensed 
premises of Mrs. Whelan, Gal way City, after midnight. They 
turned Mrs. Whelan into the street in her night attire, and then 
rushed upstairs and broke into the bedroom of Miss Keane, the 
barmaid. Miss Keane escaped from them by jumping through a 
window seven feet high onto a roof. 

October 24. At Lixnaw, County Kerry, English constabulary 
broke into the residence of Stephen Grady after midnight. They 
forcibly entered the bedroom of Mrs. Grady and her daughter. 
They took Miss Grady from her bed and dragged her out onto 
the road in her night attire. There they forced her to kneel in a 
channel of water, and holding her in this position, they cut off 
her hair. 

I think all of these cases are merely on these lines, and I only 
wanted to give you an idea of the treatment that is meted out to 
them. I do not know that it is necessary to read any more. 

A RECORD OF BRITISH OUTRAGES IN COUNTY 

CORK 

Yesterday there was a request for later particulars of these mur- 
ders and outrages. I have only a return from Cork and district 
running from July to November. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Your return yesterday went to the 1st 
of August, 1920, did it not? A. Yes. This will supplement it to 
some degree so far as Cork and district is concerned, but not gen- 
erally. Commencing with August: 

August 16. John O'Connel, Derrygallon, County Cork. 

August 17. Patrick Clancy, Derrygallon, County Cork. 

August 27. John Buckley, Midleton, County Cork. With regard 
to him there was a deposition of his brother read yesterday. He 
was the man, you remember, who was shot while being brought in 
under arrest from Midleton to Cork. 

August 28. George Walker. 

August 19. British troops and police a few minutes before mid- 



812 

night opened fire in the streets of Bantry, County Cork. Shots were 
deliberately fired into the residences of prominent Republicans and 
the windows of business premises owned by them were smashed. 

August 22. Shop windows of well-known Republican merchants 
were smashed by police and troops. 

August 22. Residence of James O'Donnell of Camp, County Cork, 
raided and cash box stolen by the troops, containing sixty pounds. 

September 1. Homes of prominent Republicans at Skibbereen, 
County Cork, were fired on by the British soldiers. 

September 2, at Inniscarra, County Cork, British military forced 
an entry into a wayside tavern, and having consumed quantities of 
the liquor, set fire to the premises and decamped with the contents 
of the till. 

September 3, at Youghal, County Cork, British troops smashed all 
the shop windows in two streets. 

September 5, at Ballyvourney, County Cork, British troops mur- 
dered two young men named Wm. Hegarty and Michael Lynch. 

July 21. Leap, County Cork, sacked by police. 

With regard to the incident at Ballyvourney, with which I was 
personally in touch, I would like to say that in that particular 
case there was a new feature in the way of strategy. Ballyvourney 
is quite a small village, about 30 or 35 miles from Cork. On this 
particular morning three military wagons passed through, and 
just outside of the village one of them was left on the roadside 
covered over with canvas. The other two drove on in the direction 
of Magroom. There was a certain amount of curiosity about this 
wagon which had been left behind, the general assumption being 
that it had smashed down and been left a derelict; with the re- 
sult that after a short time a number of the children and young 
people of the place approached it, and becoming bolder when they 
saw no sign of life, one of them went to the side of the lorry and 
raised the canvas. Immediately they were fired upon. There 
were soldiers concealed inside under the canvas, — obviously and 
quite clearly a trap. These two young men, one of whom I knew 
well, were shot dead. The fortunate thing in that particular case 
was that there were not many more, because there was quite a 
gathering of the children and young people of the district. 

Q. Senator Walsh: How old were the young men? A. The 
young man that I knew was about 27, and the other was about 
the same age or a year or two younger. 

Q. Chairman Wood: These were in July. A. September 5th. 

Q. I thought you said July. A. No, September. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Were any children injured at the time? A. 
No, there were no other casualties as I remember, I think, except 
these two who were killed. (Continues reading) : 



813 

July 31. Business premises of Cork City sacked by troops. 

August 8. Houses at Kildorrery, County Cork, wrecked and 
looted by police. 

August 23. Glengariff, County Cork, shot up by police. 

August 27. Queenstown, County Cork, sacked by troops. 

October 21. Miss Mary Lorden — well, I have already read that. 

October 15. James Lehand taken from the shop in which he 
worked at Ballymakeera, County Cork, and shot dead in the public 
street by Black-and-Tans. 

October 15. John Connolly, arrested September 30th by mili- 
tary in his home at Bandon, County Cork, and found murdered near 
the military barracks on the evening of October 15, 1920. In this 
particular case this man, having been arrested and taken from his 
home, all efforts of his people to get information as to his where- 
abouts were unavailing until his murdered body was discovered, and 
then the authorities declared that he had escaped from them, and 
they did not know anything further about him. 

November 10. Christopher Lucy, shot dead in a friend's house 
at Ballingeary, County Cork, by auxiliary police on November 10. 
Lucy was a young man who was a student until some months ago 
at the University College, Cork, a splendid type of young Irish- 
man, about 23 years of age, who had left Cork and was staying in 
Ballingeary with some relatives of his family. The place was 
surrounded one morning by these policemen and this young fellow 
was shot dead. 

November 17. Patrick Hannley, aged 17, and Eugene O'Connell 
shot dead in bed in the presence of their families by police at Cork 
City on the nights of November 17 and 18. The same night (the 
17th) James Coleman was shot dead in the presence of his wife 
at Cork. 

November 23. Dennis O'Connell, Kildorrery, County Cork, was 
killed. 

MURDERED IN PRESENCE OF WIFE 

With regard to the murders of Hannley, O'Connell, and Cole- 
man, on that particular night there were two streets attacked in 
the early part of the night and in each of them one man was 
killed and one wounded. Raids were made on particular houses in 
these streets, and in each street two or three houses were searched. 
Why the particular houses happened to be searched I do not know, 
and why the particular men who were murdered and shot at 
should have been attacked I do not know; but the fact remains 
they were. In each case one was killed and the other wounded. 
And on the other side of the city a little later on Mr. Coleman, 
referred to here, was shot dead. In his case, Mr. Coleman was a 
man somewhere about 55 years of age. He was essentially and 



814 

purely a type of business man. He had never taken any part in the 
national movement in Ireland so far as I know, with the excep- 
tion of being a member of the Chamber of Commerce. His only 
public affiliation was as a member of the Cork Industrial Devel- 
opment Association. He was the owner in Cork of a mineral water 
factory, and he owned a bar. The reason given and generally 
believed for the murder in his case was that in order to avoid trouble 
in this bar of his, knowing the type of men who were in this 
Black-and-Tan police force, he had given instructions to the assist- 
ant in the bar not to serve them, his bar and his house being only 
two or three hundred yards from one of the city barracks. The 
men when refused accordingly declared that they would be even 
with Coleman, and sure enough on this particular night they knocked 
al the door — the knocking took place about three o'clock in the 
morning. Mr. Coleman came downstairs and opened the door. 
He was asked, "Are you Coleman?" He said, "Yes," and he was 
immediately shot; his wife, who had followed him down the stairs, 
being a witness of the tragedy. Some time after his murder, a few 
hours later, two policemen came back to the house and asked Mrs. 
Coleman what had occurred, and one of them promised at her re- 
quest to go for a priest. They left, but the priest was not sum- 
moned, nor did they come back to the house again. Mr. Coleman 
left a wife and two children, the younger child being about five 
months old. 

CROWN FORCES NOT DISCIPLINED FOR EXCESSES 

Q. Senator Walsh: Mr. Lord Mayor, has anything been done 
to discipline the soldiers or officers of the Black-and-Tan organiza- 
tion or the British army for excesses committed by them, so far 
as you know? A. I have never heard of such a case. 

Q. I recently read in the paper that an inquest by a coroner's 
jury or perhaps a court-martial — a court-martial, I believe — was 
held over the death of that much respected churchman, Canon Mag- 
ner, a^d that there was a finding that the officer at the time was in- 
sane and had been drinking excessively. Other than that case, do 
you know of even an inquiry being made? A. No, I do not know 
of any other case. 

Q. Is there apparently no provision for disciplining the men 
who resort to extreme conduct in raids and in the creation of those 
offenses? A. No, sir, none that I know of, and I do not believe 
there is. 

SUMMARY OF ONE MONTH'S OUTRAGES AND 
ARRESTS 

I referred yesterday to the monthly summary which we make in 
Cork for our own purposes, so as to keep an account of the ordinary 



815 

events; and at the risk of seeming somewhat unduly prolix, I think 
it would be well to read one of them as a sample. Of course this is 
in, and I do not care to be repeating so much the same class of 
cases, but it is essential, I think, that it be understood that from the 
start I have sought to deal with and to convey not so much the par- 
ticular-cases that are being dealt with, but to convey the background 
which must constitute the real history of the everyday life of the 
people, and the atmosphere in which the people live as a result of 
these outrages, rather than the particular outrages themselves. 

Q. Chairman Wood: What record is this taken from? A. This 
is simply gathered, sir, as a record from the daily press of the dif- 
ferent outrages and arrests. 

Q. Gathered by the Republican organization? A. Gathered 
by the Republican organization for office purposes. Perhaps it 
would be sufficient if I hand one of them in. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Mr. Lord Mayor, have you it recapitulated? 
Have you the total number of murders and outrages set forth at the 
end of the list? A. No, sir. Perhaps it would be quite sufficient 
if I handed it in. 

(The Report above referred to is as follows:) 

Preliminary report, estimated to date, 6th December, 1920, of out- 
rages committed by various English Crown forces in Cork City and 
County in the month of November, 1920 : 

280 arrests ; upwards of 50 attempted arrests ; 4 publicly placarded 
threats to the citizens of Cork; hundreds of general outrages; 15 
trains held up ; upwards of 200 curfew arrests, of which 74 were 
made the night William Mulcahy was shot at North Gate Bridge, 
Cork, the majority of which were made before 10 P. M., when curfew 
begins; 4 Sinn Fein Cumanns (clubs) burned to the ground; 12 large 
business houses burned to the ground ; many attempts made to fire 
others, including the City Hall, Cork, on two occasions; amount of 
damage done by fire estimated at £1,000,000; seven men shot dead; 
upwards of 12 men dangerously wounded by shots ; attempted assassi- 
nation of upwards of 10 men; upwards of 500 houses of private citi- 
zens forcibly entered and searched ; much indiscriminate shooting. 

The majority of these outrages were committed during curfew 
hours, namely, from 10 P. M. to 3 A. M., and nearly all the remainder 
immediately before or after. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Is Cork typical of Ireland in this 
matter, or has it been peculiarly the scene of outrages? A. To 
some extent I think Cork has been rather worse. Of course, that 
state of affairs is generally applicable to Ireland; but in Cork 
things are more intensified; but the general state of affairs, so far 
as the system of arresting and raiding and outrages is concerned, 
applies to the country as a whole. 

As to these depositions, gentlemen, I would like to say that they 
were not brought by me after being picked especially or definitely 
with any particular sequence. They were the last bundle which 
happened to be most easily and most readily available to me at a 
time when I had not a great amount of time to hunt them up, and 



816 

with very little notice of my leaving; Cork. Otherwise, of course, it 
would have been possible to have considerably more, and to have 
had the information tabulated and in better order. However, I 
think even as they are, picked at random, they convey, I hope, a 
pretty complete picture of conditions in Ireland. 

Q. Chairman Wood: It seems to us a very full and a very valu- 
able account, and I am grateful for it. A. I thank you. 

BEGINNING OF THE BURNING OF CORK 

On yesterday I referred slightly to the commencement of the 
burning of Cork. For some time, for a period of two or three 
months, fires had been taking place pretty frequently at night in 
Cork, taking place in isolated shops, particular shops being burned 
out completely in some cases, efforts being made in other cases to 
burn them out, unsuccessfully, but accompanied by looting. That 
continued until something like 35 had taken place or had been 
started in Ireland. Before the large fire took place in Cork, damage 
had been done to the extent, it is computed, of over a million 
pounds. In some cases the attempts to burn a particular house or 
shop or premises were repeated a number of times. One of the 
first type of premises to be attacked were the Republican premises in 
the different portions of the city, the Republican clubs. These were 
tackled individually until every Republican club in Cork, I think, — 
practically every Republican club in Cork, had been attacked at 
least once, and in some cases many times. With the clubs, of course, 
was the City Hall. The City Hall also was attacked and an effort 
made to destroy it about four or five times before the recent whole- 
sale destruction. 

Q. Chairman Wood: How openly are those Republican clubs 
run, of which you speak? A. 0, quite openly. 

Q. Are they social clubs that are regarded as Republican clubs 
on account of the character of the membership? A. No, sir, they 
are the Sinn Fein clubs, the Sinn Fein organization, the political 
organization. There is, of course, a social side attached to them, 
but they are Republican institutions. 

CLUB DESTROYED AND FAMILY TERRORIZED 

Q. Publicly announced as such? A. Yes, sir. In the case of 
one of those clubs, the Thomas Ashe Sinn Fein Club, which is one 
of the largest in Cork, and which was subsequently burned out 
completely, — as an example of one of the raids which took place 
prior to the actual burning, this deposition which we have of the 
caretaker, Mrs. Honan, will give you an idea. (Reading) : 



317 

Affidavit of Mrs. Honan 

Sivom Statement of Mrs. Honan, Caretaker, Thomas Ashe Sinn 
Fein Club, Father Matthew Quay, Concerning Raid on the Prem- 
ises by Police on March II, 1920: 

"I am caretaker of No. 15 Father Matthew Quay for the 
Thomas Ashe Sinn Fein Cluh, Cork. Nohody else lives in the 
house but myself and family. I was asleep in bed on the 11th, 
the night of 11th of March, 1920, and was awakened by loud bang- 
ing and noise at the front door at 1:15 A. M. I shouted, 'Who is 
there?' and the answer came, 'Police. Open quickly or we will 
bust the door.' I jumped up, and putting a cloak about me, went 
and opened the door. About 12 men rushed in, brandishing re- 
volvers; some of them were dressed in ordinary R. I. C. uni- 
form; others wore khaki uniforms with R. I. C. caps and belts. 
One of these latter, presumably the leader, as I could afterwards 
see, caught me by the cloak near the throat. He pointed the 
revolver to my face and marched me back into the room where 
my children and myself slept. There were six children in bed 
there, aged from 12 to 2 years. The remainder of the raiders 
followed, and revolvers were pointed at the children. The chil- 
dren got very frightened. I told them there was no one in the 
house but myself and the children. They broke a large lamp, 
bedroom mirror, and chair. 

"I then thought of my son, aged 14, who was asleep in the 
kitchen, and said, 'My little boy is in' the kitchen, but don't kill 
him, as he is only a child.' One of them said, 'Where is he? Get 
me a candle until I see him!' I said I had no candle, but lit the 
gas in the kitchen, and three of them followed me in. When 
they saw he was only a child, they did not interfere with him, but 
started smashing ware and everything all round them. They 
broke three pictures, and as this was my property, I protested 
against their action. 

"When they had smashed everything there, I heard a voice 
shouting from above, 'There is enough down there; come upstairs.' 
One of the three went up to the party upstairs. The other two 
rushed me into the bedroom again, one remaining inside the door 
with a revolver in his hand. I heard the others smashing every- 
thing upstairs. The row was terrific and my children were 
screaming. It frightened me so much that I asked the man with 
the revolver to have mercy on me and not to kill myself and my 
children. He said, 'I would have no mercy on anyone I would 
get here.' He was a Black-and-Tan. 

"The others remained upstairs about 40 minutes, when they 
came down again, and about 2 o'clock they went out on the quay. 
The last man had a night helmet on. While they were leaving 
I ran to the door and called them a pack of cowards. Two of 
them ran back with rifles and told me if I didn't get in they would 
blow my brains out. After the remainder of the party left, those 
two remained behind for about 20 minutes. 

"When I examined the premises I found the gas pipe cut on 
the second floor in several places. The fittings were pulled down 
from the ceiling. Every bit of the furniture, tables, chairs, forms, 
etc., were smashed ; every window, 3 marble fireplaces, door 
panels, about 20 pictures, a beautiful oil painting five feet square 
or so, framed, were all broken beyond restoration. A mattress 
was cut up. Writing materials, etc., were all scattered and torn. 
Two pictures alone escaped in the upstairs rooms. 

"This was the sixth raid by police on the premises, military 
accompanying them on some occasions, when flooring boards were 
torn up, walls smashed, etc. Acting under instructions, I placed 



818 

the matter of compensation in the hands of Dr. Dunlea, solicitor, 
South Mall, the following day. Two days after, two R. I. C. ser- 
geants from Union Quay Barracks came and made an inventory 
of the damage done. They gave their names as Sergeants Mc- 
Loughlin and Reddin. The latter did all the talking, and asked 
me what class of men raided the place. I said, 'Police, some of 
whom wore khaki uniforms.' He asked me could I identify any 
of them, and I said, T could not, as they cut off the gas; and 
the two local police whom I could otherwise identify kept their 
night helmets down over their eyes.' His attitude was one of 
seeming delight all the time. They then left." 

The Witness: That was the sixth raid on these premises, and it 
has since, as I have told you, been completely destroyed. 

ANONYMOUS WARNINGS PRECEDE DESTRUCTION 
OF PROPERTY 

In the case of another club in Cork, on North Main Street, the 
club in that particular case consisted of two rooms, and on one floor 
were the offices and on another floor was a shop. The proprietor 
of the shop underneath was warned before the place was attacked; 
warned that it was unwise to remain on those premises. Mr. Mc- 
Gurk, who occupied the premises, states: 

Affidavit of John McGurk 

"I reside at No. 6 and 7 Lavitt's Quay, Cork. My business as 
retailer of English Government Surplus Stocks at 54 North Main 
Street, Cork, is managed for me by Mr. Geoghah. I bought out 
the whole house about 12 months ago. A tenant was then living 
in the top rooms, and she had sublet rooms over my business 
premises to a Sinn Fein Club. The rooms are still occupied by 
the same people, although I often requested them to leave. 

"On Thursday evening, 21st October, an R. I. C. policeman, 
whose name I can give, but for obvious reasons wish to withhold, 
came to me. He asked me if the place where the Sinn Fein Club 
was belonged to me. I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'If you have any val- 
uable goods there it would be better to shift them. Ex-soldiers 
who have rows with their wives proclaim aloud that their wives 
go up to that Sinn Fein Club and that they are afterwards ar- 
rested and brought there. The authorities have heard of all 
this.' I thanked him. On Saturday, 23d October, I received the 
following typewritten notice, printed on an ordinary buff envelope: 

'WARNING 

" 'It is extremely dangerous to be living in your premises at 
present.' The warning was contained in a similar buff envelope, and 
came through the post. The address was typewritten and ran 
thus : 'John McGurk, Esq., 54 North Main Street, Cork.' The post- 
mark was stamped 'Cork, 2:15 A. M., 23d October, 1920.' 

"The amount of damage sustained by me by reason of the looting 
and breaking up of the premises was approximately £500. If I 
hadn't received warning from some kind source and shifted val- 
uable goods, my loss would be about £2,000. I had to put some 
things to sale, and lost a good deal of money. The damage to 
the house would cost about £200 to repair." 

The Witness: On that occasion the place had been broken into, 
and subsequently the place was burned down. When that was 



819 

burned down, a premises next door, a large wine store, which be- 
longed to Mr. O'Connell, was also burned clown, the two houses 
being destroyed. Mr. O'Connell had also received warning, as will 
appear from the following, which is the original warning that he 
received : 

"Mr. O'Connell, Publican, 53 North Main Street, Cork. 

"WARNING 
"It is extremely dangerous to be living on your premises at 
present." 

You will note there is no signature. 

EARLY ATTEMPTS TO BURN CITY HALL 

The City Hall was also attacked five or six times before it was de- 
stroyed. The finishing fire was expected nightly, so much so that 
we had made special arrangements with the fire brigade depart- 
ment that firemen were on duty every night, and lines of hose were 
laid on every night. This is the testimony of Captain Hulson, who 
was captain in charge of the Cork City Fire Brigade, with regard 
to one of the previous attempts to destroy the City Hall. On that 
occasion the attempt was a failure, only one room being com- 
pletely destroyed, and one or two other rooms damaged on the 
ground floor. But on that occasion also portions of bombs were 
discovered on the premises. (Reading) : 

Affidavit of Captain Hutson 

"At 4:05 A. M. Saturday, 9th October, I received a call at 
Sullivan's Quay fire station that the City Hall was on fire. The 
fire brigade proceeded immediately and found the waterworks 
office well alight, and the windows burned out. For the preceding 
eight days I had arranged protection there. A fireman remained 
on duty at the City Hall, and he laid down hose each night, and 
kept chemical engines in readiness for any outbreak. We confined 
the fire to the waterworks office, and played a strong pressure 
of water on the ceiling, where the plaster had been blown away by 
the explosion of bombs and the lath work was in danger of fire. 
I saw from the rapid manner in which the flames spread over 
the whole floor and out through the windows and up towards 
the ceiling that something more inflammable than the ordinary 
contents of an office building was alight. Such could only be 
petrol, paraffin, benzine, or such like. The outbreak was checked 
in half an hour. 

"When I had done with the front of the building, I was ap- 
proached by a man in civilian attire, with a light trench coat. He 
asked me if the fire were extinguished, and I replied, 'Yes.' Com- 
ing down from the City Engineer's office about 35 or 40 minutes 
later, I went into the telephone office to ring up the City En- 
gineer. The same civilian, accompanied by a head-constable, R. 
I. C, came into the office to me. I asked what they wanted, and 
told them that if they waited awhile, I would show them the ef- 
fects of the fire. This I afterwards did when they passed some 
ordinary comments as to the damage effected. 



820 

"I found a piece of a bomb on the pavement outside the City 
Hall on the Albert Quay side. 1 afterwards gave it to the Deputy 
Lord Mayor, Domhnaill Og O'Ceallachain, T. C. I then made 
preparations for departure, after placing two firemen with the 
necessary appliances in the building for its further safety. My 
inspection of the building showed me that some inflammable ma- 
terial must have been poured into the waterworks office (which 
is at the left-hand corner of the building, on the ground floor), 
from the grounds adjoining the southwestern side. The hoardings 
on the high buildings overloking Albert Quay would prevent 
this being done from that direction. Bombs thrown in from Al- 
bert Quay through the windows, over the hoardings, sufficed to 
set the place alight. 

"The waterworks office itself contained a door on the south- 
eastern side of the room leading to a passage running northeast 
and southeast, which met the force of a bomb or bombs, but ow- 
ing to the fact that it opens inwards, was not blown into the 
passage. It was knocked off the hinges and fell into the room. 
A powerful dividing wall kept the flames from the adjoining room, 
which is the Public Health Office. Thus no flames were seen here 
by the attackers^ and a bomb thrown in through a window from 
Albert Quay caused no fire in the absence of inflammable sub- 
. stance. This bomb lodged on a desk, in the far corner of the 
room adjoining the waterworks office, the walls being marked by 
the splinters. 

"Thus our work was mainly confined to the one room, and the 
preventing of the fire spreading .to the City Engineer's Office 
overhead, which suffered comparatively little damage." 

HOW THE FIRE BEGAN 

The Witness: On that night Timothy Ring was night watchman in 
the City Hall, and he deposes as follows: 

Deposition of Timothy Ring 

"At 3:45 A. M. on Saturday, 9th October, I heard a fusilade of 
shots outside the City Hall. I telephoned Sullivan's Quay Fire 
Station, 'Firing on City Hall.' The reply came, 'All right, Tim!' 
About ten minutes afterwards a fusilade of shots again com- 
menced, during which I heard two loud explosions. On seeing 
fire in the direction of the waterworks department, I phoned the 
fire station, 'City Hall on fire.' The fire brigade were promptly 
on the scene. About 4:20 A. M. I opened the front door facing 
Albert Quay for Captain Hutson's convenience. A man in civilian 
clothes, in tweed cap and light trench coat, immediately came to 
me from opposite the City Hall, where a number of police were 
sitting on the railings. He was accompanied by two policemen 
with carbines at the ready. He said, 'Are you the porter?' I 
said, 'Yes.' Captain Hutson came on the scene, and he turned 
to speak to him. About half an hour afterwards the same civilian, 
with a head-constable R. I. C, went into the telephone office to 
Captain Hutson. A short time afterwards I saw them depart. I 
closed all front doors after the departure of the fire brigade, and 
stayed on duty until relieved at 7 A. M." 



821 

FIREMEN HALTED BY ARMED POLICE 

The Witness: Timothy Ring, Jr., was also a member of the 
fire brigade that night, at Grattan Street Station, and he deposes as 
follows: 

Deposition of Timothy Ring, Jr. 

"I am a fireman at Grattan Street fire station, Cork. At 4:15 
A. M. I received a fire call from Sullivan's Quay Station to pro- 
ceed to the City Hall, that it was on fire. I arrived in the vicinity 
of the burning within four or five minutes, with the three men 
under my charge. At the corner of Parnell Bridge and Albert 
Quay we were halted by a man with a revolver, dressed in civilian 
attire, with cap and light duster coat. He was accompanied by 
twelve or fourteen men in R. I. C. uniform and caps, one of 
whom covered us with a rifle. I shouted out 'firemen.' We were 
allowed to pass. I afterwards saw this man in the City Hall." 

POLICE BOAST THEY WILL BURN HALL 

The Witness: The men referred to there, who during that par- 
ticular attempt remained in the vicinity of the City Hall and Parnell 
Bridge, which was just adjoining it, were quite obviously the men 
who had sought to burn the City Hall. On one of these occasions, 
when the fire had taken place, one of the party actually went into 
the City Hall and discussed the fire with some of the firemen or 
porters on duty, and on this particular occasion said, "Well, it has 
been a failure again this time, but the next time we will finish it." 

Patrick O'Connell was a lamp lighter in the employment of the 
Corporation. He deposes as follows: 

Deposition of Patrick O'Connell 

"I was inspecting the electric lamps some time after 9 P. M. 
on Sunday, 18th July, 1920, at Brian Boru Bridge, when I first 
heard firing of rifle shots in the direction of MacCurtain Street, 
and I saw people running in all directions. I returned to the 
Public Lighting Department, City Hall. There were some 
strangers there, including one woman. They had come in there 
for safety. I then heard firing in Parnell Place, coming closer 
all the time. I could hear those who were firing using filthy lan- 
guage, calling, 'Put up your hands, you Irish swine, etc' 

At that time I was standing at the outer private door facing- 
Albert quay ; when one lamp lighter was just coming in the door, 
a volley went off. I closed out the door. A few minutes after- 
Wards, as I was expecting two lamp lighters, I opened the door 
again. Two men who were employed in the Public Baths, to the 
left of the City Hall, were passing, and I pulled them in for 
safety. We closed the door and went into the watchman's quar- 
ters and extinguished the gas there. Just then I saw a number 
of policemen at the door, over the railing. One of them pointed 
a rifle at me, using filthy language, whilst calling on me to open 
the door. The watchman, Tim Ring, opened the door, and they 
rushed in. I lit the light. There were then seven employes, one 
strange man, and one strange woman present. When, in answer 
to their questions we told them we were lamp lighters, they said, 



822 

'Ye are the fellows we want.' They then presented their rifles 

to us and told us to put our hands up. They lined us up against 
the wall and kept us in that position for 20 minutes, with our 
hands over our heads all the time. The woman continually be- 
seeched them through the Sacred Heart to have mercy on us, 
and not shoot us dead. They replied, 'What mercy had ye on us? 
Ye had none, and we'll show ye no mercy now. Ye had yere 
turn; it is our turn now.' They were digging some of us on the 
breast with the muzzle of revolvers, threatening to shoot us. The 
woman was in a terrible state of prostration. I saw one of them 
take two packets of cigarettes out of one of the men's pockets 
and put them into his own. There were four of these police in 
the room, and about three outside, all dressed in policemen's 
clothes, with the exception of one dressed in civilian clothes, cap- 
less and hatless. They all had strange English accents. 

"After some 20 minutes they were about to leave when some 

of them made the remark, 'We'll pay this Sinn Fein Hall 

another visit.' When outside in the passage one of them fired 
a revolver bullet through the glass window in the watchman's 
room, grazing the top of my head. The bullet lodged in the corner 
between the wall and the ceiling, and the mark is there yet. The 
bullet was kept. When outside on the quay, we could hear them 
smashing the windows of the City Hall. They all seemed to be 
under the influence of drink. 

"The stranger and the woman remained in the watchman's rest 
for safety until the following morning, as I saw them there at 
5 A. M." 

The Witness: On that occasion all the windows in the City Hall 
were smashed. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Was anything more ever found out 
about this strange man and the woman, and who they were? A. 
No, sir. Presumably they were merely passers-by. 

Q. Irish? A. Yes. And who went in for protection. 

NINETY TOWNS RAVAGED IN ONE YEAR SUR- 
PASSES GERMAN RECORD IN BELGIUM 

Q. Chairman Wood: Mr. Lord Mayor, can we got on now 
to your experiences in connection with the fire, and the dramatic 
exit that you made? A. Yes, sir. Before doing that I wish to put 
in a list of the towns that have been shot up before Cork during the 
last 12 months. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: What is the total? A. Ninety. 

Q. Major Newman: That is in all of reland? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. Doyle; Just a moment about that last list. That is a 
list showing that 90-odd towns in Ireland have been shot up and 
either destroyed or partly destroyed by the British forces within 
what period of time? A. Within twelve months. 

Q. How does that compare with the number of towns shot up and 
partially destroyed or destroyed in Belgium? Do you know? Have 
you made any comparison? A. No, except that from the general 
information I have it would be far in excess. 



823 

Q. According to your recollection of the public records, no 
such list as that has been prepared which shows that ninety towns 
in Belgium have been destroyed by the Germans during the occu- 
pation of that country? A. That is true. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: I regret that we have not a map by 
which we could locate these towns. Would you say that these 90 
towns and villages are fairly distributed over the whole of Ireland? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Chairman Wood: With the exception of the northwest? A. 
Yes, there were some burned in the northeast. It would cover the 
whole country. The following is a detailed list of the 90 towns 
ravished by British troops or police during the last 12 months: 

1919 

September 9 — Fermoy, County Cork, sacked by troops. 
November 6 — Kinsale, County Cork, partially sacked by troops. 
November 12 — Cork City, partially sacked by troops. 

1920 

January 22 — Tburlcs, County Tipperary, sacked by troops. 

February 27 — Tbree houses in Dublin wrecked by troops. 

March 1 — Thurles, County Tipperary, partially wrecked by troops. 

March 7 — Several houses in Thurles, County Tipperary, wrecked by troops. 

March 12- — Many houses in Cork City wrecked by police. 

March 22 — Many shop windows in Dublin wrecked by troops. 

April 17 — Bouladuff, County Tipperary, shot up by police. 

April 26 — Kilcommon, County Tipperary, partially wrecked by police. 

April 27 — Many houses in Limerick City wrecked by troops. 

May 1 — Limerick City shot up by police. 

May 13 — Houses at Thurles, County Tipperary, fired and bombed by 

police. 
May 15 — Houses at Bantry, County Cork, wrecked by police. 
May 18 — Limerick City shot up by police 

May 19 — Kilcommon, County Tipperary, shot up by police. 
May 28 — Kilmallock, County Limerick, sacked by police. 
June 5 — Midleton, County Cork, shot up by police. 
June 12 — Limerick City again shot up by police. 
June 23 — Bantry, County Cork, partially sacked by police. 
June 23 — Houses in Limerick City wrecked by police. 
June 25 — Many houses at Bantry, County Cork, wrecked and fired by 

police. 
June 27 — Fermoy, County Cork, wrecked by troops. 
June 27 — Lismore, County Waterford, sacked by troops. 
June 27 — Many houses at Newcastle-West, County Limerick, wrecked 

and fired by police. 
June 28 — Limerick City partially sacked by police. 
June 28 — Kilcommon, County Tipperary, shot up by police. 
July 1 — Newspaper offices at Limerick City wrecked and fired by 

police. 
July 3 — Union Hall, County Cork, shot up by police. 
July 5 — Midleton, County Cork, shot up by troops. 
July 6 — Residence at Ballylanders, County Limerick, bombed and 

wrecked by police. 
Tuly 15 — Tralee, County Kerry, partially sacked by police. 
j u lv 16 — Houses at Arklow, County Wicklow, bombed and wrecked 

by police. 



824 

July 16 — Calbally, County Limerick, shot up by police. 

July 16 — Ballagh, County Roscommon, partially sacked by police. 

July 17-19 — Cork City shot up by police. 

July 19 — Emly, County Limerick, shot up by police. Creamery and 

houses wrecked. 
July 20 — Tuam, County Galway, sacked by police. 
July 20 — Houses at Limerick City wrecked and burned by police. 
July 20 — National Foresters' Hall at Enniscarthy, County Wexford, 

wrecked by police. 
July 21 — Houses at Limerick City bombed and wrecked by police. 
July 22 — Ballina, County Mayo, shot up by police. 
July 22 — Leap, County Cork, sacked by police. 
July 23 — Caltra, County Galway, partially sacked by police. 
July 30 — Upperchurch, County Tipperary, partially sacked by police. 
July 31 — Tipperary town partially sacked by troops. 
July 31 — Business premises at Cork City sacked by troops. 
August 2 — Many houses at Castlerea, County Roscommon, partially 

wrecked by police. 
August 5 — Doon, County Limerick, sacked by troops. 
August 6 — Rosegreen, County Tipperary, shot up by police. 
August 7 — Tralee, County Kerry, shot up by police. 
August 8 — Houses at Kildorrery, County Cork, wrecked and looted 

by police. 
August 12 — Swords, County Cork, shot up by troops. 
August 13 — Limerick City shot up by police. 

August 14 — Tralee, County Kerry, shot up by troops and police. 
August 15 — Limerick City partially wrecked by police. 
August 16— Templemore, County Tipperary, partially sacked by police. 
August 17 — Creameries at Castleeiny, Loughmore, and Killea, County 

Tipperary, destroyed by police. 
August 19 — Bantry, County Cork, shot up by police. 
August 21 — Oranmore, County Galway, sacked by police. 
August 23 — Glengariff, County Cork, shot up by police. 
August 24— Several premises at Dundalk, County Louth, wrecked by 

troops. 
August 25 — Kill, County Waterford, wrecked by police. 
August 26 — Creamery at Knocklong, County Limerick, destroyed by 

police. 
August 26 — Shanagolden, County Limerick, partially sacked by police. 
August 26 — Nass, County Kildare, shot up by police. 
August 27 — Queenstown, County Cork, sacked by troops. 
September 1 — Ballaghadereen, County Mayo, sacked by police. 
September 2 — Inniscarra, County Cork, partially sacked by police. 
September 10 — Tullow, County Carlow, sacked by police. 
September 17 — Galway City shot up and bombed by police. 
September 18 — Several houses wrecked and fired by police in County 

Limerick. 
September 19 — Several houses at Salthill, County Galway, wrecked 

and fired by police. 
September 20 — Carrick-on-Shannon, County Leitrim, partially sacked 

by police. 
September 20 — Tuam, County Galway, shot up by police. 
September 20 — Balbriggan, County Dublin, sacked by police. 
September 21 — Balbriggan, County Dublin, shot up by police. 
September 22 — Drumshambo, County Leitrim, partially sacked by 

police. 
September 22 — Houses at Tuam, County Galway, and Galway City 

wrecked by police. 
September 22 — Ennistymon, County Clare, sacked by police. 
September 22 — Lahinch, County Clare, sacked by police. 
September 22 — Miltown-Malbay, County Clare, sacked by police. 
September 22 — Houses at Galway City wrecked and looted by police. 



825 

September 24 — Newspaper offices and houses at Galway City bombed 

and wrecked by police. 
September 24 — Ballinamore, County Leitrim, shot up by police. 
September 25 — Several houses at Athlone, County Westmeath, 

wrecked. 
September 25 — Houses wrecked at Killorglin, County Kerry, by police. 
September 27 — Trim, County Meath, sacked by police. 

ARSON RAMPANT IN CORK 

The Witness: The separate fires which took place in Cork before 
the big fire to which I referred, I have a list of them here, which 
may be of interest, — premises wholly or partially burned in previous 
incendiary fires, in which the damage estimated was well over one 
million pounds, and that is in addition to the big fire in Cork. 
These fires occurred on separate nights, as I have explained to you. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Are they all in the City of Cork? A. Yes. 
Messrs. Dwyer & Co., Ltd., Washington Street, which is one of the 
largest wholesale warehouses in Cork, a very determined effort 
was made to burn that, but the effort was unsuccessful, owing to 
the sprinkler arrangement which the firm had installed. The sprink- 
ler arrangement saved the premises. Not only were petrol tins 
found on the premises, but bales of woolen and cotton goods were 
found stretched along the corridors and on the stairs, saturated with 
petrol. Messrs. Forrest, Patrick Street, was burned out. Messrs. 
Cahill & Co., Blackthorn House, and American Shoe Company, — 
these three houses were in a row at the corner or intersection of 
Patrick Street by one of the side streets. Just as in regard to the 
City Hall and the Sinn Fein Clubs, in the case of the Blackthorn 
House three or four previous raids had been made, and the place 
smashed and looted before this final and successful effort to burn 
it out. 

Q. Chairman Wood: This is not the large conflagration you are 
speaking of? A. No, prior conflagrations which occurred night 
after night before the large fire. 

Q. By whom was this list compiled, to your knowledge? I am 
referring to this list you have put in of the 90 Irish towns ravaged 
in 12 months. A. That is issued as the Irish Bulletin. It is an 
official publication of the government in Ireland, the Republican 
Government. The facts, of course, have all appeared in the daily- 
press all over the country. 

Q. They have all appeared in the public press? A. Yes. They 
are taken from the public press. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Has there ever been a denial by Sir 
Hamar Greenwood as to the accuracy of any such lists? A. Yes, 
in the same way in which the burning of Cork was denied, not that 
it was denied the burning took place, but the effort being made to 



826 

deny that it was done by the Crown forces, while the circumstances 
make it clear that it would be absolutely impossible for it to have, 
been done by any others. (Continues reading) : 

O'Gorman's, MacCurtain Street; Dalton's Restaurant; The Royal 
Liver Assce. Society; two houses on North Main Street; former Sinn 
Fein headquarters, 56 Grand Parade; Pipers Club, Hardwicks St.; 
the Sinn Fein Rooms, N. E. Ward; Sinn Fein Rooms, Shandon 
Street; one house on St. Augustine Street; Recreation Hall, Doug- 
las; St. Michael's Hall, Blackrock. Both of these last places are in 
the suburbs of Cork. The Irish Transport and General Workers' 
Union. That was a most determined effort, the attempt on Labor 
headquarters. The fire was started at first early in the night, shortly 
after curfew. 

Q. What time is the curfew? A. At 10 o'clock, the law being 
from 10 o'clock until 3, and of course in the period from 10 until 
o or 9 in the morning no citizen may be out of doors without run- 
ning a risk. During that time the city is patrolled by military lor- 
ries and by military and police patrols on foot. In that particular 
case, the fire having been started quite early in the night, the fire 
brigade was notified and repaired to the scene and extinguished the 
fire. On their way back there was considerable firing; a number of 
shots were fired at them, with the result that when an hour or so 
later they were notified the fire had been started again, they were 
unable to proceed to the scene until after seven in the morning, and 
when they got there the fire had made such headway that they were 
unable to extinguish it, and the premises were destroyed. Then the 
Thomas Ashe Sinn Fein Club, Father Matthew Quay; the City Hall, 
— the City Hall having been attacked on three previous occasions. 

BRITISH GOVERNMENT IGNORES CITY'S PLEAS 
FOR PROTECTION 

That covers the situation up to the Saturday night on which the 
commercial heart of Cork was burned out. While these isolated 
fires, a list of which I have just read, were taking place in Cork, 
certain of the public bodies in Cork, notably the Cork Chamber of 
Commerce, wired to the British officials calling their attention to 
this state of incendiarism which was rampant in Cork. 

Q. Chairman Wood: The British officials in London or Dublin 
Castle? A. No, London, asking for protection. The same body 
afterwards, as we shall see in the big fire, appealed for protection; 
but the only result was in the fires being intensified and in the city 
being burned down. The same body again wired to the British 
officials asking for an impartial inquiry, which was refused. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Was that first request answered from London? 
A. Not so far as I know or have seen. The following is a copy of 



827 " ; 

the telegram sent to the Chief Secretary for Ireland on the 29th of 
November : 

"Chief Secretary for Ireland, Chief Secretary's Office, London, 
S. W. : Council of Chamber desire to draw attention of Chief Secre- 
tary to number of incendiary fires occurring in Cork, more especially 
within the last few days, resulting in enormous destruction of prop- 
erty, and request immediate steps for protection of citizens' property. 
(Signed) "Danckert. Honorable Secretary, 
"Cork Chamber of Commerce and Shipping." 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Is the Chamber of Commerce in 
Cork a predominantly Republican body, or predominantly Union- 
ist? A. It is pretty hard to say at the moment. It is essentially a 
body which we do not measure by political affiliations. It is purely 
a commercial body. It would be very largely Republican, of course. 
All the large business men in Cork, the large drapery establish- 
ments, for instance, and a number of Unionists, all belong to the 
Chamber of Commerce. It is essentially a body which does not 
deal with politics in any shape or form. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Has there been a change in political senti- 
ment among that class of men within the last two years? A. 0, 
yes, certainly. While of course I presume most of the Unionists are 
still Unionists, there has been a considerable landslide in the direc- 
tion of Republicanism among those who were not Republicans, say, 
a year or two since. 

Q. Senator Norris: That is a world-wide proceeding now, it 
seems. A. Yes. That now, of course, is so. 

NO PERSONAL COMPARISON WITH BELGIAN 
ATROCITIES 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Have you tried to compare the campaign of the 
British authorities in Ireland with the campaign of the German 
military authorities in Belgium? For instance, first, the destruction 
of towns; second, the service of notice such as was served at Lou- 
vain; third, the killing of priests and the taking of bishops as host- 
ages; then the destruction of large cities, and so on? Have you 
made that comparison, and have you prepared any data showing 
how they did apparently follow the same line? A. No, sir, I have 
not done anything of that kind. Of course, it seems to me, and I 
think it is perfectly clear, that very few people now believe that all 
the crimes and atrocities alleged, and news of which was dissemi- 
nated during that period, did take place. That I think is pretty 
universally doubted now. 

Q. Chairman Wood: You have no personal method or special 
opportunity of making this comparison, have you? A. No, sir. 



823 

THE BURNING OF CORK 

Q. Let us get on to the burning of Cork, because I do not think 
the other matter affects us very materially. A. Very well, sir. On 
this particular night the fires in Cork started about a quarter to ten. 
Curfew began at ten. 

Q. What was the date of the month? A. The fires took place 
on the 10th. 

Q. On Saturday, the 10th of December? A. Yes. 

Q. Were you in Cork that night yourself? A. No. I was in 
Cork that evening, but I left town that night. I was about two miles 
outside of the town at the time of the fires. On this particular night, 
while curfew usually began at ten o'clock, the rumor had spread 
through the town early that there had been an attack of some kind 
in the northeast ward of the city, in Dillon's Cross direction. While 
nothing was known definitely of the matter, shortly before that or 
about nine o'clock military cars drove through the town very wildly 
and recklessly and a number of shots were fired, with the result that, 
while nobody was certain what had taken place, everybody imme- 
diately went home. The streets were cleared quite early; they were 
cleared practically at nine o'clock, or very, very shortly after nine 
o'clock. The streets were deserted in a very short time so that to 
all intents and purposes on that particular night curfew started an 
hour earlier than usual. At about a quarter to ten, shortly before 
ten, the "first outbreak of fire was noticed in Patrick Street. That 
was the premises of Alexander Grant & Company. They have a 
very large warehouse, a general merchandise store. That fire raged 
for some hours. Ultimately the particular block in which that 
stood, that is the premises itself, was burned out; but the fire did 
not spread to the adjoining buildings on either side. That particular 
block was simply burned out clear. 

Q. Senator Walsh: Did the fire department attempt to extin- 
guish the flames? A. Yes, sir, the fire department were there, but 
they were not able to prevent that destruction. 

Later on, about eleven, between eleven and half past eleven, the 
outbreaks took place all along Patrick Street. It first broke out in 
the premises of Forrest. Forrest had already been partially de- 
stroyed. The outbreak took place there first, but after a very short 
time different local outbreaks were noticed all along the street, and 
as a result when the fire brigade turned out they were practically 
powerless. 

Q. Major Newman: Is Patrick Street the principal street of 
Cork? A. Yes, the main business thoroughfare, the heart of the 
city. The result was that when some hours had passed, the fire had 
such a grip on all that side of the street that nothing could have 
saved it. 



829 

Q. Senator Walsh: Was the fire department still operating? 
A. Yes, they were. The result, of course, of the fire was only seen 
on the following day. It was then that it was discovered that twice 
the greater portion, nearly all of the destruction, was on one side 
of the street. A frontage of about a quarter of a mile was entirely 
burned out, and beside that, the blocks running off of Patrick Street 
were also laid waste. In fact, when you came to view the situation 
for the first time after the fire, on the following day, Patrick Street 
was really unrecognizable; you could not tell where the street was, 
where the splendid buildings had been. There was simply a wilder- 
ness of ruin and debris. 

The houses burned out were in some cases shops, small ordinary 
shops; but in very many cases they were large warehouses, the larg- 
est houses in Cork, four or five of them. These were notably the 
Munster Arcade, which was one of the largest warehouses in Cork, 
and employing two or three hundred. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: When you say warehouse, you mean, as we call 
them here, department stores? A. Yes. Also Cash & Company, 
which was similarly a large store, — grocery stores. There were at 
least four such large stores, including the Grant's, where roughly 
200 or 250 employees, and in one or two cases about 300 employees 
were engaged. In only one case in all that destruction along all that 
frontage was there a front wall of a shop left standing. That was 
in the case of Sumner, a chemist, in Patrick Street, where the front 
wall stood, but all along the rest of the frontage everything had 
been levelled, and there was not even a front wall standing. This 
was all on one side of Patrick Street. That was also the case with 
certain blocks running off from Patrick Street. Back from Cash's 
there was one block running from Cash's to the Postoffice, and across 
the road from Winthrop Street on the other side. There were two 
blocks running from Patrick Street to Old Georges Street burned out. 

BURNING OF CITY HALL AND LIBRARY 

Apart from that, which was the main fire, away across the river, 
about a distance of a quarter of a mile, and at the other side of the 
river, the City Hall, which was the site, of course, of the local city 
government, the municipal buildings, the free library, and so on, 
were burned out. An effort was made by the Chief Secretary for 
Ireland to say that that was a part of the same fire, and that those 
premises had simply taken fire from the large fire in Patrick Street. 
It is quite clear how obviously ridiculous that is, and how typical 
of the truth of the government's statements with regard to Ireland, 
when the fact is remembered that the City Hall, the municipal build- 
ings and the free library were fully a distance of a quarter of a 
mile and were at the other side of the river. Not only would the 



830 

fire have had to pass through all the intervening buildings and 
streets in that quarter of a mile, but it would also have blown 
across the River Lee. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Was there a wind blowing at the time of 
the fire? A. There was, sir, but not very much, fortunately. That 
night it was very calm. 

Q. That accounts, perhaps, for the other side of Patrick Street 
not being burned? A. It certainly does, and it also accounts for 
the two ends of the city which were burned. Had the night been 
wild, the street would have been completely wiped out between the 
two corners which remain. 

Q. Major Newman: Do you know whether the City Hall and 
the municipal buildings on the other side of the river burned simul- 
taneously with the fire in Patrick Street? A. No, sir, they were 
rather later. The City Hall fire was first noticed about three o'clock 
in the morning, and it burned steadily from then until six. The 
clock on the City Hall tolled until a quarter to six. About five 
minutes before a quarter to six the clock fell, and shortly after- 
wards the fire had reached the stage where it smoldered. By that 
time the place had nearly been burned out. The clock stood until 
practically the whole building had been burned out. 

ONLY MILITARY AND POLICE ON THE STREETS 

Q. During all this time, of course, the people did not come out? 
A. 0, no. 

Q. The streets were clear? A. Yes. 

Q. Were there any military forces out, so far as you know? A. 
There were. The ordinary military forces were out, and they, with 
the police, were on the streets. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: It is usual when there are military 
in a town for the military to turn to and help the fire brigade. Was 
that done in Cork? A. Not so far as helping in the ordinary sense 
is concerned. It was to this extent, that, I think, during the night, 
and I know during the following day, they formed a cordon around 
the buildings. 

FIRE BRIGADE FIRED UPON 

Q. Was there any interference with the fire brigade there in Pat- 
rick Street, at the Patrick Street fire or at the City Hall fire? A. 
Yes, the fire brigade allege that they were fired upon that night. 
I thought that I had with me a deposition bearing on that, but un- 
fortunately I find I have not. They also told me that the hose was 
cut in one case, while dealing with the first outbreak in Grant's. 
While I know that they have told me that, unfortunately I find I 
have not got those depositions with me, as I thought I had. 



831 

Q. Is there any evidence that the high military command in Cork 
exercised any of the usual precautions which might be exercised in 
such an emergency, in order to assist in the fighting of the fire? 
A. I do not know of anything. I have not heard or seen any- 
thing. I do not think so. 

FIRE LOSSES FOUR MILLION POUNDS 

The actual losses represented by the fires on that night have been 
estimated at somewhere in the region of two and a half or three 
millions. As I explained a while ago, the damages caused by the 
previous isolated fires would be over a million. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: You refer to pounds, not dollars? A. To 
pounds. 

Q. In other words, say, £3,000,000? A. The total loss was four 
millions, including this fire and the isolated fires — roughly 
$20,000,000. 

GREAT USEFULNESS OF CITY HALL AND 
LIBRARY TO PEOPLE OF CORK 

Q. Mr. Lord Mayor, I was going to suggest that before you go 
on, if you could, to describe a little more in detail for the benefit 
of the Commission about your City Hall, as to what kind of a 
building it was, and whether or not it was surrounded by a park? 
A. The City Hall proper was a large meeting or concert hall, the 
largest hall in Cork. It provided seating accommodations for about 
2,000 people, between the body of the hall and the gallery. We 
had in it an organ which had a reputation of its own in Cork. The 
organ was first procured at the time of the Cork International Ex- 
position in 1902, and subsequent to the exposition was installed in 
the City Hall. All around the large vestibule through which one 
passed into the City Hall proper were the municipal buildings; all 
the offices of the municipal officials were there, the town clerk, the 
city solicitors, the city engineers, the public health department, and 
so on. All these departments had their offices in the front of the 
building. In the front of the building also was the council chamber, 
in which the Cork Corporation held its meeting, as well as a number 
of committee rooms and rooms for the members of the Corporation, 
and of course the Lord Mayor's room. 

Q. Senator Walsh: How old was this building? A. It was 
about 50 years old. 

Q. Stone or brick? A. It was of stone. 

Q. Chairman Wood: And a slate roof, was it? A. Yes, slate 
roof. Then at the front of it, or just at the side, was the Carnegie 
Free Library. It was certainly a very fine, ornamental building, 
and naturally a very useful building to the city. 



832 

Q. Senator Walsh: Were the books all burned? A. Yes, sir, 
they were reduced to ashes. 

Q. Chairman Wood: How large a library was it? How many 
books? A. There were something about 15,000 books. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Was it a collection of ancient books in the li- 
brary, or a recent library? A. A recent library, but the library 
has been there for quite a number of years, twenty or twenty-five 
years, — the gift of Mr. Carnegie. The books, of course, were mixed 
in the ordinary way in which the books in a public library would be. 

Q. Did you have any' ancient manuscripts? A. No, there was 
nothing of historical value in that particular way. 

CORK BURNED BY BRITISH CROWN FORCES 

Q. Before you go on from there, I want to get this clearly and 
definitely settled. I do not think it has been brought out yet. To 
whom, definitely and specifically, do you charge the burning of 
Cork upon? A. I was just getting to that. I charge definitely the 
British Crown forces in Cork. 

One of the unfortunate things about the burning of the City Hall 
itself was that all of the city records were burned. That will create 
a great deal of difficulty in the functioning of the different depart- 
ments of the Corporation for some time to come. The records of 
the rates and the water records and all the city records were of 
course destroyed. 

PREMISES BURNED AND AMOUNT OF CLAIMS 

One of the clearest and best ways in which to give you an idea, 
to those who cannot visualize the city, and have not known the city, 
would be, I think, to read a list of the premises burned and a list of 
the claims which have been lodged officially with the Crown. 

Q. Chairman Wood: I was going to ask about the ownership 
of these various premises or blocks, and the religion of the owners 
of these premises. Have you any record of that? Aside from the 
fact that about 95 per cent of the population of Cork is probably 
associated with Sinn Fein in some way politically, and a large ma- 
jority Roman Catholics, I was wondering whether these larger es- 
tablishments were owned by British capital, — for instance, like the 
Mall, which I understand was a British capital enterprise. A. Yes. 
While I have not any tabulated information with regard to them, I 
know that in many cases the larger premises, these larger ware- 
houses or stores, were not owned, so far as I know, to any great ex- 
tent, by British capital, by English capital as such. They were 
owned to a large extent by Unionists, and of course by Protestants 
to a certain extent. The list that has been lodged in Cork with the 
town clerk amounts roughly to $15,000,000. It runs as follows. 



833 

These amounts, of course, would be the amounts for which insur- 
ance had been taken under the ordinary fire policies by the people 
concerned, and they will not represent the figures, or anything like 
the figures which would enable reconstruction to be made today. 
For instance, the first item lodged is the Corporation, for the City 
Hall, Carnegie Library and contents, £280,000. Certainly without 
any particular technical knowledge of the matter, I feel quite certain 
that £280,000 would not build the City Hall alone today, or near 
it. I will give the amounts as they were lodged with the town 
clerk: 

Corporation : City Hall and Carnegie Library and contents . . £280,000 
The Munster Arcade, — that is the large department store to 
which I have referred, Messrs. Robertson, Ledlie, & Fer- 
guson, 27 to 30 Patrick St., 99-102 Old Georges St., and 

3 Robert St . 405,000 

The building referred to is one large store, simply taking in 

the different streets, Patrick and Old Georges Streets. 
Cork Furniture Stores, 22 Merchant St., a large furniture 

store 8,406 

William Roche, 15 Patrick St., and 21 Mayor St 17,000 

Messrs. Roche's Stores (London House). Another large 

warehouse or department store 112,000 

T. Lyons & Co., 52, 53, 54 Patrick St 120,000 

Charles C. Harvey, premises Munster Arcade and 27-28 Pat- 
rick St 31,158 

Messrs. Cash & Co., 18-21 Patrick St., and 24-25 Maylor St. . 250,000 
Cash's is the second of the large warehouses. 

Saxone Shoe Co., 24 Patrick St 30,000 

Wm. Egan & Sons, Ltd 100,000 

Lee Boot Mfg. Co., 16 Patrick St. and 21 Maylor St 19,000 

Wm. Cashman & Co., Ltd., 4 Cook St 30,000 

Annie Nolan, premises 18, 19, 20, and 21 Patrick St 50,000 

James Donovan, for premises 52, 53 and 54 Patrick St. (Grant 

& Co.), and 51 Patrick St. (Samuel Haynes) 37,000 

A. M. Walker, premises 30 Patrick St. (Munster Arcade).. 20,000 

James Ryan, 26 Maylor St. and 21, 22 Merchant St 24,000 

Ed. Woods, 3 Cook St 6,000 

Richard Sunner, 31 Patrick St 26,000 

Messrs. Forrest and Sons, Patrick St., Cook St., and Elbow 

Lane 95,000 

J. T. O'Regan, 25-26 Patrick St 40,000 

J. Tyler and Sons, 20 Winthrop St 12,750 

R. and J. McKechnie, Ltd., 25 Patrick St 21,000 

Marcus Forester Harvey, 25, 26 Patrick St., 1-9 Robert St., 

103, 104 Georges St 10,000 

Simon Spiro, 9 Bridge St. and 3 Patrick's Quay 3,675 

W. Roche and Lee Boot Manufacturing Co., 16 Patrick St. 

and 21 Maylor St 17,000 

Lessees in Leases of Lee Cinema, Winthrop St 10,000 

Mary Perry, 1 and 2 Winthrop St 10,000 

Rev. F. H. Sandys and others, 26 Patrick St 9,000 

T. F. Carroll, 13 Patrick St. and 103 Georges St 11,000 

Q. Chairman Wood: Mr. Lord Mayor, I think we gather from 
that which you have read the type of the thing, and I do not believe 
it is worth while to wear your voice out in reading it further. If 



834 

you will file it with us we will be very glad to have it for reference. 
The total, as I understand it, comes to approximately £4,000,000. 
A. In this particular case I judge it would run in the neighborhood 
of £3,000,000. There had already been a million pounds damage 
done in the previous fires. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: I understand that this £4,000,000, 
including all the fires, does not represent the cost of duplicating the 
property at the present time by a great ways? A. That is so. 

ENGLISH INSURANCE COMPANIES REFUSE TO 
PAY LOSSES TO REPUBLICANS 

Q. Chairman Wood: In regard to the insurance, have you any 
information as to the insurance companies with whom these insur- 
ance policies were placed, and whether there have been any objec- 
tions made to paying these losses as the result of an act of God or 
the King's enemies, or those other little riders which sometimes ap- 
pear in insurance policies? A. No, sir, I do not know what action 
the insurance companies will take in these particular cases. I do 
know that the insurance companies have for some time inserted in 
all their policies a particular clause that the individual taking out 
the policy must not belong to or be identified with any Republi- 
can — I think it says any Republican or seditious movement in Ire- 
land. But what their attitude will be on these wholesale claims I 
do not know. 

Q. Senator Norris: How long has it been since that stipula- 
tion has been in the policies? A. Roughly, six months. 

Q. That was prior to this fire? A. O, yes. 

Q. But probably not prior to the time the policies were issued 
that were in existence at the time the fire took place? A. I should 
say not. 

Q. Chairman Wood: That was a new clause? A. Yes. 

Q. Senator Norris: That clause would not have much appli- 
cation to this fire, would it?,, A. I take it, in a great many cases, 
if the insurance companies felt so inclined, they could object to 
paying claims to particular people simply because they happened 
to be Republicans. 

Q. I understand that; but at the time of the issuing of the 
policies that were probably in force when this fire took place, 
they had no such stipulation in the policy? A. O, they would 
have, because these policies, especially the policy which is most 
usually taken out there now, is called a special riot and civic com- 
motion policy. These are usually taken out for short periods, most 
frequently for 3 months, sometimes for 6 months, — rarely for 6 
months, and most frequently for 3 months. 



835 

Q. Would that be the kind of policies that were in force on 
this property? A. O, yes. 

Q. Of course a provision in the policy that the company would 
not be liable in case of fire originating from the King's enemies 
would not apply here, as you claim the King himself was the 
instigator of these fires. A. Absolutely. Of course there are 
different clauses. There is the ordinary fire insurance policy which 
covers only accidental fire. There is this particular policy, which 
is most favored at the moment, in regard to riot and civic com- 
motion; and there is the policy against malicious injury. There 
is one case that has occurred, of which I know, where the fire 
insurance company has refused, in the first instance at all events, 
to pay, in the case of one of the warehouses which I referred to, 
which was burned before the night of this big fire, the warehouse 
of Dwyer & Company. 

Q. Senator Norris: When you refer to "warehouse" you mean 
department stores? A. Yes, large department stores. When that 
was attacked the complete destruction was prevented, as I told you, 
by the installation of this sprinkler arrangement. The amount of 
the damage claimed, I think, was £10,000. In that particular case, 
although covered against riot and civic commotion, I understand 
the insurance company have, in the first instance, refused to pay, 
maintaining, as I am informed, that there was no riot, and neither 
was there civic commotion. The case, of course, will be contested 
in the courts, if it has not already appeared there, and will be 
decided; and possibly that particular case, to a large extent, will 
govern the claims on all the subsequent fires. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: These insurance companies that put this new 
clause in that you cannot be a Republican and so on, they are the 
English insurance companies, are they not? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Is most of your insurance carried 
in the Liverpool and other big insurance companies. A. 0, yes. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Do any American insurance companies do 
any business over there? A. They do, but not in fire. They do 
a certain amount in life. 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Do you know as to the fact whether any Amer- 
ican insurance companies, if they have policies in force, have 
taken any action or protest against the action of the military and 
the British officials in that town causing this fire? A. No, sir, not 
so far as I know. 

Q. You have not got the list of the insurance companies af- 
fected by the fire, have you? A. No, I have not such a list. 

PEOPLE MADE HOMELESS BY FIRE 
Q. Chairman Wood : Is it not true that some parts of the 
buildings which were destroyed were used for residential purposes? 



836 

A. Yes, in a great many cases residences were upstairs. 

Q. What happened to the people? Was there much loss of 
life in connection with it? A. The number affected in that was 
not so great, for this reason, that while these isolated fires had 
been taking place, wherever possible people who had been living 
over these business premises in the center of the city moved to 
friends in the residential portions. There were not a great num- 
ber in that particular area. Those, I think, who were, of course, 
had to come out when the fire started, where they were not already 
alarmed by the outbreak elsewhere and on the lookout, — they had 
to come out and be taken into neighboring houses on the other 
side of the street. The largest case of that which I heard of was 
the case of the Minister Arcade, where I understand there was some- 
thing like 20 or 25 girls upstairs. They came out with a consider- 
able amount of distress and alarm, but I think they were all safely 
housed on the other side of the street. 

INVESTIGATION BY BRITISH LABOR COMMISSION 
CONVICTS CROWN FORCES OF BURNING CORK 

Q. I do not want to interrupt in any way the course of your 
story, but I saw in the paper the report of the British Labor Party's 
investigation, which said they had what was perfectly convincing 
evidence to them that this fire had been started by the Crown 
forces. Have you anything of that to place before us? A. What 
I intended to do in that regard, sir, was to read or to hand in that 
statement by the Labor Commission, because I personally have no 
particular evidence bearing on it, owing to the fact that I left 
Cork on the Monday following the fire. 

Q. The fire started Saturday night, and you left Monday? A. 
I left Monday evening, and in the interval I had not time to do 
anything in the nature of compiling evidence with regard to that 
particular aspect, although it was being done for me. However, I 
have not yet got it. 

Q. You do not know what evidence was submitted to them? 
A. To the Labor Party? No. But I do know that in the interval 
between the fire and my leaving, that I, of course, had a pretty 
busy time. But I know that it was quite common rumor at the 
time that there were a number of people who had from the houses 
seen the police actually engaged in setting the fires, and I have sent 
men to get these statements, to collect them in the city. But up to 
that evening when I left, I was not able to get them, and I have not 
got them since. But I have no doubt they are available in Cork, 
and very probably you will have them here before your Coiumis- 
sion ends. However, in answer to your question, I think I can put 
in that report of the Labor Party Commission. 



337 

Chairman Wood: Very well. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: It might be well, Mr. Chairman, if 
the Lord Mayor is not in the country when this evidence comes, if 
he could arrange to have his counsel, Mr. Doyle, see that it 
reaches us. 

Chairman Wood : Yes. 

A. I will do that, sir. I had already intended to do it. I 
thought, of course, I would have them here in order to present to 
you, but as I have not, it will be quite a simple thing to arrange 
it with Mr. Doyle so that the matter will reach you, properly 
sworn to. 

This statement was issued by the British Labor Commission on 
its visit to Cork. It is taken from the Cork Examiner of Friday 
morning, December 17, 1920, and reads as follows: 

"Two members of the Commission, Messrs. Lawson and Lunn, were 
delegated to visit Cork City on Monday, December 13th, for the pur- 
pose of investigating the cause, extent, and general circumstances of 
the conflagration which occurred on Saturday night and during the 
early hours of Sunday morning. The news of the destruction in Cork 
did not come as a surprise to the Commission. During its stay in 
Cork last week the Commission could not avoid the feeling that a 
serious outbreak of trouble was probable. There were signs of in- 
creasing irritation provoked by the R. I. C, Auxiliary Division, which 
we were convinced at the time might result in retaliation against the 
Crown forces or in bolder or more intensified action on the part of 
the Auxiliary Police. 

"The two members of the Commission who traveled to Cork for the 
special purpose of investigating the events of the week end made as 
close an examination of the situation as the time permitted. They 
visited the razed areas and took evidence from responsible citizens on 
the subject. In view of the extended reports of the fire in the press, 
it is unnecessary to specify and describe the gutted buildings, but the 
newspaper accounts convey only a faint impression of the terrible 
havoc wrought in the city. It would be difficult to conceive a scene of 
greater desolation than that presented by the destroyed business prem- 
ises in the center of Cork. 

"The whole Commission had an opportunity during last week of see- 
ing the town before the latest calamity which has befallen it. The 
contrast was striking and appalling. It is clear that the incendiaries 
sought out the most valuable premises in the town. Large business 
houses and massively fronted shops have been reduced to piles of 
smoldering debris, charred woodwork, and twisted iron girders. It 
was not possible, even approximately, to estimate the money value of 
the property destroyed, but business men informed the members of the 
Commission that it might run into millions of pounds. The disaster 
will involve the unemployment of a considerable number of workers 
in addition to those who will be indirectly thrown out of work as a 
result of the fire. 

"The commerce of the city has already suffered very appreciably as 
a result of the events of recent months, and the incendiarism of the 
past week end will strike a further blow at the economic activities of 
the city of Cork. 

"Inquiries made and statements elicited enable the members of the 
Commission to make the following statement, which a number of wit- 



838 

nesses interviewed are prepared, if given adequate guarantees for their 
future security, to substantiate on oath : 

"Shortly after 9 P. M. on Saturday auxiliary police and Black-and- 
Tans appeared in large numbers in the streets of the city, and at the 
revolver point (before actual firing took place) drove people to their 
homes earlier than the curfew regulations required. This was re- 
garded by the citizens as ominous, and increased the nervousness 
which had been caused by the ambush at Dillon's Cross, and the appre- 
hensions of reprisals that were naturally entertained by the people. 

"The streets were soon entirely deserted, and the work of destruc- 
tion begun. The first of the burnings took place at Grant's extensive 
premises in Patrick Street, and during the night new fires broke out. 
At 4 A. M. the City Hall was fired, and the efforts of the firemen 
failed to save it. It was completely gutted. But a few days previously 
the Commission had taken evidence in the City Hall of the unfortunate 
occurrences in Cork during the past few months. The City Library, 
adjacent to the Hall, was destroyed. 

"The members of the Commission made special inquiry regarding 
the origin and cause of the fires, and numerous witnesses were inter- 
viewed. They were unanimous in stating that the fires were caused by 
the Crown forces. Some persons had witnessed the entry of members 
of the forces into buildings which shortly afterwards were on fire. 
In some cases explosions occurred. Others again saw them looting. 
The smashing of glass and doors was heard, as men forced their way 
into business premises for the purpose of looting. 

"Firemen of the local brigade received assistance from the military 
engaged on patrol duty during curfew hours. The old R. I. C. men, 
as distinct from the Black-and-Tans, were engaged mainly in convey- 
ing to the brigade information of further outbreaks of fire occurring 
from time to time during the night. Two members of the brigade 
were slightly wounded by bullets whilst carrying out their duties. 

"The members of the Commission direct attention particularly to the 
following facts : 

"(1) The fires occurred after the Crown forces had forced the 
people indoors. During the greater part of the time that outbreaks of 
fire took place, the curfew regulations were in operation. Curfew ends 
at 3 A. M. But the. military on curfew duty patrolled the streets until 
5 :30 A. M. 

"(2) Eye-witnesses, observing fires from adjacent premises, posi- 
tively state that Black-and-Tans or Auxiliary Police, or both, were the 
incendiaries. 

"(3) The choice of places which were set on fire indicates a pre- 
conceived plan of destroying the whole of the center of the city. 

"(4) An ambush occurred, as reported, at Dillon's Cross, on the 
outskirts of the town, and a number of Cadets were killed or wounded. 

"The Commissioners sought an interview with the Cork military 
authorities, in order to obtain official information relating to the am- 
bush and the fires, but owing to the absence of responsible officers at 
the time, they were, unfortunately, unable to obtain a statement. 1 

"The joint meeting unanimously decided that the Commission should 
wait upon the Prime Minister to urge that a further effort be made to 
bring about a truce in Ireland with a view to negotiations being held 
between representatives of the Government and of the elected repre- 
sentatives of the Irish people, for a permanent settlement of the con- 
stitutional question." 



1 For summary of evidence taken by British Labor Commission establish- 
ing guilt of Crown forces in burning Cork, see Labor Commission's 
Report (Jan, 1921), pp. 74-76. 



839 

LABOR COMMISSION DEMANDS IMPARTIAL 
INQUIRY INTO BURNING OF CORK 

The Witness: That was followed by a further message from the 
English Labor Commission : 

"At a special meeting of the Labor Party in London today a tele- 
gram to the following effect from the Labor Commission at present in 
Ireland was read to the meeting : 

" 'Statements made by Chief Secretary in the House of Commons 
concerning burning of Cork are greatly inaccurate. Parliamentary 
members of Labor Commission who visited Cork yesterday are con- 
vinced that the fires were the work of Crown forces. The suggestion 
that the fire spread from Patrick Street across the river to the City 
Hall, a distance of several hundred yards, cannot be entertained by 
anyone knowing the topography of Cork. We stand by our statements 
regarding the fire in Cork, and can, if the safety of witnesses is guar- 
anteed, procure reliable evidence on the subject. We therefore demand 
independent inquiries into the recent incidents in Cork. If the Gov- 
ernment refuse, the British public will form its own conclusions.' 

"In view of the statement contained in this message, it was decided 
to send a resolution to the Prime Minister asking that an independent 
and searching judicial inquiry be made immediately into the occur- 
rences at Cork on Saturday last." 

Q. Chairman Wood: From what paper are you reading? A. 
From the Cork Examiner. 
Q. Of what date? 

CORK CORPORATION REPUDIATES SUGGESTION 
THAT CITY WAS BURNED BY ITS CITIZENS 

A. December 24th. That demand for an inquiry was also made 
by the Cork Corporation on that date, the Monday following the 
fire. 

Q. That is the body over which you preside? A. Yes, sir. The 
following wire was sent by the Lord Mayor of Cork and Messrs. 
Walsh and DeReiste, members of Parliament, to Sir H. Greenwood, 
Lord Robert Cecil, and Messrs. Asquith, Henderson, and Commander 
Kenworthy: 

"On behalf of the whole citizens, we absolutely and most emphati- 
cally repudiate the vile suggestion that Cork City was burned by any 
section of the citizens. In the name of truth, justice, and civilization, 
we demand an impartial civilian inquiry into the circumstances of the 
city's destruction. We are quite willing to submit evidence before any 
international tribunal, or even a tribunal of Englishmen like Bentinck 
Henderson, Kenworthy, and Cecil." 

CORK CHAMBER OF COMMERCE DEMANDS 
INVESTIGATION 

That demand for an impartial inquiry was supported by the Cork 
Chamber of Commerce, which, as I told you a short time ago, had 
already wired to the British Chief Secretary for Ireland and had 
asked for protection for their property. Up to then the demand for 



840 

protection had only resulted in increasing the incendiarism. And 
they sent the following wire: 

"The Cork Incorporated Chamber of Commerce and Shipping ex- 
press their astonishment at the statements made by you in the House 
of Commons with reference to the destruction in Cork. We demand 
that, as Chief Secretary, you make personal investigation on the spot 
of the true facts, when incontrovertible evidence will be placed before 
you; and that a judicial commission of inquiry be set up without delay. 
We claim that all damage be made good out of Government funds. 
The Chamber begs to draw your attention to the fact that on Novem- 
ber 29th they wired you with reference to incendiary fires occurring in 
Cork and requested immediate protection for citizens' property, to 
which telegram no reply was made by you. 

(Signed) "Danckert, Honorable Secretary." 

PEOPLE DEPRIVED OF EMPLOYMENT, RENDERED 
HOMELESS AND TERRIFIED 

The Witness: That was also adopted by the Cork Harbor Board, 
on the motion of Mr. Benjamin Hicks, one of the Unionist members 
of the Board; and by the Cork Employers' Federation. (Reading) : 

"Cork Employers' Federation at a meeting on Tuesday called the 
attention of the Government to the effects of Saturday night's and 
Sunday morning's conflagrations involving destruction of an enormous 
amount of valuable property, the throwing out of employment of thou- 
sands of persons, rendering large numbers homeless, and the keeping 
of the inhabitants in an abject state or terror. They demanded an 
immediate and searching inquiry into the circumstances by an im- 
partial tribunal." 

ONLY RESTRICTED MILITARY INQUIRY HELD 

The Witness: Despite all that, the only inquiry ordered by the 
British Government was an inquiry to be held and presided over by 
Major General Strickland, in Cork, who was the officer commanding 
in Cork. He communicated the fact that he intended to hold an 
inquiry, as follows: 

"Major General Sir E. P. Strickland, commanding 6th Division, 
directs me to inform you that an inquiry will be held at these head- 
quarters, on Saturday, December 18, in connection with the burning 
and looting of property in Cork City on the nights of the 1 1th— 12th 
instants. All persons willing to give evidence in this case, and in a 
position to do so, are requested to communicate with these headquar- 
ters as early as possible. Name of witness will not be published in 
the press. 

(Signed) : "C. J. O'Kelly, Captain. 
"Attached General Staff 6th Division, 

"Headquarters 6th Division, Cork." 

Q. Senator Norris: Is that Kelly the same one we heard about 
yesterday? A. I would not be surprised if it was. I do not know 
the initials. 

Q. He was a captain yesterday. A. This is also Captain Kelly, 
and very probably he is the same man. (Reading) : 



841 

REPRESENTATIVES OF PRESS AND PUBLIC BODIES 
DEBARRED FROM "PRIVATE" MILITARY INQUIRY 

"At the library, Victoria Barracks, Saturday morning, a military 
court of inquiry assembled for the purpose of hearing evidence as to 
the extent of the damage done by the incendiary fires which demol- 
ished a large portion of the business property in Cork. It was the 
intention of the Cork Incorporated Chamber of Commerce and Ship- 
ping, and Cork Employers' Federation, to be represented by Mr. M. 
Healy, Solicitor, but information was conveyed to Mr. Healy by the 
military authorities that lawyers would not be admitted to the in- 
quiry, and that any witnesses to be examined would only be allowed 
into the inquiry one by one. Under those circumstances the bodies 
mentioned were not professionally represented. When representatives 
of the press put in an appearance, they were informed by the Brigade 
Major that the inquiry was private and not open to press representa- 
tives. These representatives then left. As far as could be seen, no 
civilian witnesses were present at the appointed hour." 

BRITISH CABINET SUPPRESSES STRICKLAND 
REPORT 

Q. Mr. Doyle: I want to ask you, is it not a fact that General 
Strickland has sent a report to the Cabinet? The report certainly 
has not appeared. The only thing I have read- of it was an intima- 
tion in the press that it never will appear in full, the reason given 
being, — and I thought it rather ingenious, — first of all, that the 
names of certain witnesses might not be published, inasmuch as they 
had been given the guarantee that they would not be published, and 
the evidence if given would indicate their identity, so that the names 
could not be given owing to their promise, and their evidence could 
not be given lest their names be indirectly disclosed. It was inti- 
mated that there may be an abridged version of the report published, 
but even that much was not stated definitely. But one definite state- 
ment was that the report as sent will not be published. A. Yes. 

SIR HAMAR GREENWOOD FALSELY DENIES GUILT 
OF CROWN FORCES 

Q. The Chairman: Mr. Lord Mayor, right after the burning took 
place, did not Sir Hamar Greenwood announce in Parliament that 
there was no evidence that this burning was due to any of the Crown 
forces? A. Yes. 

Q. That statement of Sir Hamar Greenwood, was it true or false? 
A. Well, that certainly is false, absolutely. 

Q. Mr. Lord Mayor, is there any reason that you know of why 
the fire only occurred on one side of Patrick Street, if it was started 
in a general attempt to set fire to Cork? A. No, sir, except I take 
it that these men who caused the fire wanted not so much isolated 
fires throughout the city, — that had been the method until then ; but 
they wanted to wipe out one particular portion of the city, and they 



842 

have done that effectively. The whole area, covering roughly a 
matter of, say, one square mile, is absolutely leveled. 

Q. There were, however, large buildings on the other side of 
Patrick Street, were there not, trade buildings? A. Yes, there were. 
Well, the only reason I can think of is that in doing what they were 
doing, and in wiping out one mile square of the city, they thought 
that they were doing quite sufficient for one night; and it is quite 
possible that they may yet return to the other side. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Do you know whether Sir Hamar 
Greenwood, or any of those other authorities, went to school in Ger- 
many, or otherwise derived from such sources this ingenuity of eva- 
sion of responsibility? A. No, sir; but certainly one thing about 
which opinion is unanimous in regard to them is admiration for their 
ability in that direction. 

FIRE CAUSES UNEMPLOYMENT AND 
REVENUE LOSS 
Q. Mr. Doyle: Did not that fire in Cork throw a great many 
persons out of employment? A. Yes, sir, it has thrown, roughly, 
3,000 persons out of employment. Incidentally, so far as we in the 
city are concerned, so far as the municipality is concerned, it will 
be a severe blow, because it means that at a time when we will need 
all our resources to enable us to pull through, there will be a loss 
very probably of somewhere between eight and ten thousand pounds 
annually,— about $50,000. 

REASONS FOR BURNING PUBLIC BUILDINGS AND 

STORES 

Q. Is it not true that the destruction of these public buildings 
was done in an effort to destroy all vestige of civil authority and 
government in the city? A. Undoubtedly. 

Q. These stores picked out, you say, were amongst the largest 
department stores in Cork. Was not one reason why these places 
were picked out because the looting could be done easier by the sol- 
diers of the Crown forces? A. Certainly, that is it. 

Chairman Wood: Of course, we are getting only the opinion of 
one individual. I mean that he does not produce any evidence to 
support that, except his own opinion from the general background. 

Mr. Doyle: Except this, that he is the Lord Mayor of the city 
which was destroyed, and certainly no one would know more than 
he, and probably no one is better fitted to form an opinion than 
he is. 

CORK RELIEF COMMITTEE APPOINTED 

Q. Chairman Wood: May I ask this, in regard to relief which 
is being administered in Cork? As a result of this unemployment 



843 

there must, one would suppose, be considerable suffering. Is not 
that so? A. Yes. On this Monday to which I referred, the Mon- 
day following the fire, one of the first things we did at the special 
meeting of the Corporation which we held on that morning was to 
appoint a relief committee. The relief committee that we outlined 
comprised representatives of all the public boards, the Corporation, 
the Harbor Board, the Chamber of Commerce, and so on, and the 
labor organizations. 

Q. Representatives of all parties and religious affiliations were 
on that? A. Yes, all parties, all creeds and classes, who were to 
take charge in the first place, of course, of the collection of relief, 
and secondly, of the distribution of relief." 

Q. What is the official name of that committee, and its address, 
if anybody wanted to send something to it? A. The Cork Relief 
Committee, and the Harbor Board Office would be the address, or 
the Court House, Cork. 

Q. The Harbor Board offices were not destroyed, then? A. No. 

Q. Let me ask you, do these Crown forces in Ireland show any 
particular animosity toward lawyers? A. I cannot say I have 
noticed they do. 

Q. Not more than the rest of the community? A. No, sir. 

FIRE CREATES SERIOUS PROBLEMS FOR CITY 

The two points that I would like to make with regard to the fire, 
so far as the city administration is concerned, are, first, the point I 
have just stated, — the fire, apart from the loss to the city, the loss 
of ordinary commercial life and employment, means a loss in the 
administration of affairs of $50,000 in administration, and makes 
the administration more difficult. There is also the question of re- 
building, which we must face some day. And there is added, of 
course, the ordinary difficulties of present day prices and labor itself. 
Then there is the feeling of insecurity, and then the difficulty as to 
whether these men who own the different buildings, — that is, the 
capitalists, will see their way clear, under existing conditions, to re- 
build when they have no sense of security, and when they do not 
know but that within a week of the rebuilding their premises will be 
again destroyed. 

ACUTE HOUSING SHORTAGE IN CORK 

Q. Was there a housing shortage in Cork before this happened? 
A. Very acute. 

Q. Very crowded conditions? A. Yes. I think that condition 
is general in Ireland. I know it is acute in Dublin, and very acute 
in Cork. And even before this occurred, one of the very great diffi- 
culties was to see a way of relieving the conditions in housing, owing 



844 

to all grants from the British Government being withdrawn. Before 
the break with the British Government took place, we had under way 
a scheme which had their approval. We had arranged for a loan 
as a starter, to be supplemented by others, of £100,000; the con- 
dition attaching to the loan being the condition which is the ordinary 
one between local boards in Ireland and the British Government, 
that we would provide the site and the plans, and that they should 
approve of the plans before the scheme was adopted. We had in 
Cork and in its vicinity four areas decided on, and in two of these 
areas we had the plans all arranged and adopted by the English 
Local Government Board. In the other two, the plans had been all 
but completed. Everything, in fact, had been settled at the time 
when the break took place between the English Local Government 
Board and the local authorities. And where we expected to start 
building on that site, the whole scheme toppled, the money was with- 
held, and the scheme fell through; and we have been able to do 
nothing since then. The housing situation in Cork has been acute 
for a number of years, and has been much accentuated from the fact 
that during the war there has been no building. 

REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT ABLE TO PROVIDE 
RELIEF IF UNHAMPERED 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Supposing that conditions of peace 
were restored in Ireland and that the Bepublican Government was 
functioning without external interests, would the Republican Gov- 
ernment be in the economic position to aid you in such schemes of 
housing for the relief of Cork as you have now briefly, mentioned? 
A. O, undoubtedly, sir. Once the Republican Government has the 
control of the country and of the powers of taxation of the country, 
there is no question on earth about it but that the Republican Gov- 
ernment would be able to do it, because the money which at present 
goes to swell the British Exchequer from Ireland would, of course, 
be available for local development. 

Q. Chairman Wood: May I return to the relief proposition? 
Would it in your opinion be advisable to use demountable houses, 
such as various organizations put up in the devastated areas of 
France? Would they be helpful if sent over from America to Cork 
and various places in Ireland; — called temporary huts? A. Frame 
huts? 

Q. Yes. A. I certainly think they would. Yes, unquestionably. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Could land be provided for such 
temporary huts? A. O, yes, there is no difficulty about that. 

Well, gentlemen, unless there is something you wish to ask me, I 
think 1 am about through. I have to thank you for the courteous 
manner in which you have heard me, and for the freedom with which 



845 

you have allowed me to deal with the matter in my own order, and 
to arrange it in my own way. 

I do not know if it is a customary thing in your proceedings, sir, 
but if so, I think there are just a few things in the way of general 
remarks, or a general summing up, that I should like to say. 

Commissioner Wood: Commissioner Newman wants to ask you a 
few questions about the Home Rule Bill. 

EFFECT OF NEW HOME RULE BILL 

Q. Commissioner Newman : What is the situation now in both 
north and south Ireland as a result of the passage of this new Home 
Rule Bill? A. I do not think the mere passing of the Home Rule 
Bill makes any change in Ireland. The only question of a change 
would be should the British Government decide to enforce the Act. 
Then it is pretty well near to impossible to forecast what change it 
will make, inasmuch as there is no seeing clearly in what way, along 
what lines, or to what extent the British Government will go in forc- 
ing a system of government on the country which the country em- 
phatically does not want. 

Q. That act to become effective must be supplemented by inde- 
pendent acts in Ireland by the Irish people, must it not? A. I 
should certainly think, to become effective, it would need to be sup- 
plemented by at least the good will of the Irish people; or at all 
events the willing acceptance of the Irish people. Of course, I take 
it that the circumstances are entirely unprecedented, where the for- 
eign government is deciding a system of government where the ma- 
jority of the people in the country have said, "We do not want it 
and we will not have it." But when it comes to forecasting how 
exactly things are going to develop if the Government seeks to im- 
pose it by force, as I assume they must, that is one of the things 
about which I would be afraid to give anything in the nature of an 
expression of an opinion. 

Q. The newspaper reports that we have received here indicate 
that in the north of Ireland this may be accepted. Do you under- 
stand that is correct, that they will set up their parliament under 
this Act in the north of Ireland? A. Yes, I take it that is quite 
possible, in the north. There would, of course, be objections up 
there to it by sections of the people. 

Q. Yes, certainly. A. But it is possible, of course, that a par- 
liament in the north might be established; that is conceivable. But 
I do not know that I can picture any circumstances under which any 
other parliament under the Act or bill could be got together. 

PROGRESS OF REPUBLICANISM IN BELFAST 

Q. Chairman Wood: We have had some evidence as to the prog- 
ress of the Sinn Fein movement in Belfast itself, and the probability 



846 

that the minority as it exists is rapidly enlarging. Have you any 
information as to that which you would care to give us, or do you 
know anything about it? A. I do not think I have anything that 
would be of use to you officially, inasmuch as I am not connected 
with the north. Of course I know from personal information, from 
friends and otherwise, that that is correct, that Republicanism is 
securing an increased hold in the north, and that not only is Re- 
publicanism as such securing a hold, but, what in its own way is 
more important, that the bigotry in the north, which I think it has 
been pretty generally admitted was largely due to ignorance on the 
part of the working classes, is being dispelled, and that being so, 
of course it is only a matter of time when the whole question in the 
north rights itself. 

SOUTHERN IRELAND SOLIDLY AGAINST HOME 
RULE BILL 

Q. Major Newman: Is there to any extent any sentiment in the 
south of Ireland which is favorable toward acceptance of this Home 
Rule Bill? A. No, sir, I can say without doubt there is not. Of 
course there are Unionists scattered all over the south, but as for 
any body of opinion, there is none. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Are the Unionists in the south united 
really in asking for this Home Rule Bill, or do they feel that on ac- 
count of the very distinct opposition of the majority of the people 
that it will not work, and so they are not for it? A. That is it. 

Q. Major Newman: There is one other point about which I 
would like to ask you. Of course I understand, or I assume, that 
the fundamental reason for there being no sentiment for the accept- 
ance of this measure is the desire for complete independence on the 
part of the people? A. Yes. 

Q. Does it extend further than that? Are there specific objec- 
tions to the provisions of this particular act? A. There are not at 
the moment, inasmuch as the Act as such is not dealt with in the 
critical way in which an Act would be dealt with which a country 
took seriously. But the Act, if it were being seriously considered 
by the country, would of course be criticized. But at the moment 
it is not. The people take no interest whatever in the Act, have not 
studied it, do not worry about it. They simply say, "We do not 
want it." And in that way the criticisms which, considered as an 
Act, it is open to, are not general. 

Q. Have you any personal opinions about the provisions of the 
Act that you would express to us, along those lines? A. No, I do 
not think that I have, because apart from the Republican viewpoint, 
the mere fact that it embraces the partition, that alone must inevi- 
tably be done away with. 



847 

PRESENT CONDITIONS IN IRELAND WORST SINCE 
CROMWELL'S REGIME 

Q. Mr. Doyle: Before you conclude, Mr. Lord Mayor, I would 
like to ask you, in connection with the outrages, for a general com- 
parison. You are familiar, of course, with Irish history in the last 
two hundred years. Do you know of any condition in Ireland quite 
as had as the present condition over there? A. No, sir, I do not. 

Q. In other words, therefore, you might go back to the days of 
Oliver Cromwell if you would find a comparison between the British 
outrages in Ireland today with those of that century. Is that cor- 
rect? A. That is so. 

Q. Is it not true that those outrages of Cromwell and his period 
have been condemned often by the most staunch Unionists of today, 
apologizing for conditions in Ireland, stating that while the British 
have not governed Ireland well in the past, yet things are quite dif- 
ferent today? A. Yes. 

Q. Is it not true that things have been condemned in the past by 
these people which are even worse today? A. Yes, that is true. 

Major Newman: I might refer counsel to the Encyclopedia Brit- 
tanica for a description of Cromwell's regime. 

i 

SCHOOLS NOT ATTACKED 

Q. Chairman Wood: May I ask, in regard to the schoolhouses 
in Cork, were any destroyed to affect the educational situation there? 
A. No, I do not know of any schools that have been attacked. 

Q. I thought perhaps in these conflagrations there might have 
been some. A. No. There have been some schools that are known 
as "Irish summer colleges." These have been destroyed in two 
cases. These are colleges where a summer course of lectures are 
given, principally to school teachers and to anybody else who wishes 
to secure a diploma for teaching. These have been attacked; but 
the schools ordinarily, I do not recall any case where these have 
been so far attacked. 

DEVASTATION WORST IN MARTIAL LAW ZONE 

Q. You testified to the number of towns, some ninety-odd, that 
have been either burned or shot up or something of the kind. What 
proportion of those towns are outside of the zone now in which mar- 
tial law has been declared? A. That I could not say, unless I went 
through and tabulated the whole list. 

Q. In a general way, martial law has been declared in the west 
and southwest? A. 0, yes. 

Q. These really go outside of that? A. Yes. 

Q. The proportion is larger, presumably, in that zone? A. Yes. 

Q. That includes Tipperary and Clare? A. Generally the south, 



DESTRUCTION IN QUEENSTOWN 

Q. Senator Norris: Are you acquainted with the condition <>i 
Queenstown now? A. Yes. 

Q. Have you been there? A. 0, yes, repeatedly. 

Q. Has that been shot up? A. It has, but not on very whole- 
sale lines. All along the west beach has been smashed. 

Q. I am not speaking now of murders or fires, but the houses in 
Queenstown. A. Yes, they have been smashed. 

Q. Have you been over the town and seen it yourself? A. Yes. 

Q. Can you give the Commission an estimate of what proportion 
of the houses in Queenstown have had their doors or windows 
broken? A. I do not know that I could give you an estimate like 
that, inasmuch as Queenstown, of course, is a very scattered town 
straggling all over the hills. 

Q. What is the population of it? A. It has a population of 
about five or six thousand. Generally the houses on the quay front 
have been smashed, and also all the business section. 

IRELAND'S POSITION BEFORE THE WORLD 

Q. Chairman Wood: The Commission is very appreciative of 
your having come before us. I understand you have some general 
remarks which you wish to make. A. I have just a few remarks 
in the nature of a summing up of the evidence generally. I think, 
gentlemen, that it would be well that, having come here and having 
testified as to conditions obtaining in Ireland, that that be supple- 
mented by giving you what is Ireland's view at the moment: first 
of all, of her own position; and secondly, what she thinks she has a 
right to expect from the other free nations of the world, and espe- 
cially from America; and finally, her position in the event of that 
help being refused. It will not take very long. 

IRELAND SEEKS RIGHT OF SELF-DETERMINATION 

Ireland has declared a desire to be free in every legitimate way 
in which an oppressed country could do it, through the ballot box. 
She has elected her Republican parliament, her Republican councils, 
who function to carry on the administration of the country. The 
men engaged in that movement have not been dreamers, as has often 
been alleged. They are men who are at least as keen, and probably 
much more so, about the importance of commercial advancement and 
commercial progress than any recent generation, at all events in Ire- 
land. These men have worked along these lines, even under the 
difficulties of the state of unrest which obtains in the country; and 
their efforts, in spite of these difficulties, have been to a large extent 
crowned with success, — a success which is only an indication of the 
state of things that would obtain were they free to work entirely on 



&49 

different lines, and to devote their energies and their abilities solely 
to that purpose. 

I have described for you how the people are suffering, what their 
record is, what their daily life in Ireland is at present; and I put it 
to you, gentlemen, and through you to the American people, that 
that suffering is being entailed and is being endured by the Irish 
people because of their determination to seek the right to decide for 
themselves their own form of government. 

In Ireland the term "Republican" is used, as it is used here in 
referring to Ireland, in order to convey a definite and a concrete 
conception of liberty, not definitely that a Republican, as such, or 
any other particular form of government has been decided on for 
the country, or is being insisted on for the country. The Republican 
parliament and the Republican party ask merely for, and will be 
perfectly satisfied if they secure, the right of self-determination. 
They will be satisfied if that question is allowed to be decided by 
the people of Ireland themselves, be their verdict what it may, be 
the form of government which they decide on for themselves what 
it may. 

UNANIMITY OF IRISH PEOPLE FOR FREEDOM 

In Ireland there is at least as much if not more unanimity on this 
question of freedom than there is in any other country in the world, 
or than there was in any other country in the world which struggled 
to be free. Obviously, clearly at no time in history was it possible 
to secure, never will it be possible to secure, and it is a good thing 
that it is so, a nation where every individual of that nation has his 
thoughts and has his mind running along the same lines as every 
other individual in that nation. Never, obviously, will a nation be 
found where there is absolute, thorough, and complete unanimity 
from the north and south, east and west. The most that one can 
expect is that a large majority of the people of the country are 
unanimous. That state of affairs obtains in Ireland, obtains to a 
very large extent. The fact that there are a very small number of 
people in one corner of Ireland does not in any way imply that the 
country, spoken of as a country and as a nation, is not unanimous 
in seeking freedom. 

THE NEW NATIONAL CONSCIOUSNESS 

The people in Ireland have also, during recent years while the 
struggle for freedom has been going on, awakened to the fact that 
their culture, their mentality, just as their race characteristics, are 
entirely different from those in England, and that is the aspect of 
the case which I put to you gentlemen. Parliament has awakened 
to the fact that through a very, very clever system of education, so- 



850 

called, the Irish had been brought to the point, very recently, where 
they had almost lost all sense of race consciousness, where all that 
was best, inasmuch as all that was distinctive of them as a race, had 
been submerged, and where they were being modeled into a poor 
imitation of English men and women. All that is being changed, 
and contemporaneously with the fight for freedom there is the effort 
for reconstruction of the Irish idealism of our race. The Irish lan- 
guage, which, with all else that typified our individuality, had been 
crushed, is now more generally spoken throughout Ireland than for 
generations past. Every school in Ireland, practically without ex- 
ception, teaches the Irish language. The children in Ireland today 
know their own language and are proud of their own language. 
They realize exactly what it is that makes that language so important 
and so dear to them. 

ENGLAND'S FALSE PRETENSE OF SELF- 
DETERMINATION 

During the war England, and not only England but all the other 
nations that fought in that war, including America, were very, very 
loud in their declarations that the war was being waged for the 
right of self-determination. That principle awakened hopes in every 
country where freedom was being denied. It certainly awakened 
hopes in Ireland, and the Irish people looked forward to freedom 
without much delay. The war ended, and England now very clearly 
shows by her conduct in Ireland that that pretense of self-determina- 
tion, that pretense of fighting for the rights of small nations, was 
the merest humbug, the merest camouflage. 

WERE AMERICA'S WAR AIMS ALSO INSINCERE? 
Before leaving you today, gentlemen, I do not think it is in any 
way out of place or in any way improper, even though it may per- 
haps seem harsh, if I ask you, and through you the American people, 
whether we in Ireland have got to take it that England was not alone 
in that respect; whether Ireland has got to take it that every other 
nation which entered the war ostensibly for that same reason, and 
which was equally responsible for awakening these hopes in Ireland 
and other subjugated countries, whether the position is the same in 
all of them, and whether it is equally admitted all around that that 
plea was the merest smoke screen and humbug? 

IRELAND WILL FIGHT TO ANNIHILATION FOR 
RIGHT OF SELF-DETERMINATION 

Even should that be so, even if it should apply to America, which 
itself suffered somewhat along the lines of our sufferings such as I 



851 

have been describing for you, and which itself fought the same fight 
that we are waging, and fought it against the same enemy; if it be 
true that America also refuses to stand by her declarations, and if 
Ireland is forced back on herself, forced to realize that no help is 
to come to her from any nation, Ireland is placed with a situation, 
on the one hand, which will show her as making a fight, after all 
the noisy pretenses of the great and free powers of the world, as 
making the fight alone, on her own small island, with her four and a 
half millions of people, against this great and powerful Empire, — 
making their fight for self-determination, which it was alleged was 
being made on the battlefields of France and Belgium. While that 
is so, she will also be faced with a fight which would seem to lead 
almost with certainty to annihilation. 

IRELAND'S RIGHT TO AID FROM FREE NATIONS 

What I wish to put before you, gentlemen, and before the Ameri- 
can people, is that we have a perfect right to expect help from every 
free nation of the world, not only because of the justice of our cause, 
but also because no nation, especially a nation which has been gifted 
in the past with ability and genius, can give of its best to the world, 
to the advancement and progress of the world and of civilization gen- 
erally, while enslaved. For that reason, so that Irish culture might 
be developed freely and in an unhindered manner, and that Ireland 
might give of her best for the advancement of the world; for that, 
as well as for the reason of the absolute justice of the fight for her 
freedom, — if despite all these reasons we are told in Ireland that 
neither America nor any other nation is going to raise a hand to 
prevent our people being bled to death; if despite all that we say to 
them, through you, sirs, and the other powerful peoples who made 
the pretense of making this fight for self-determination, you now 
admit, when faced with a concrete case, that it was humbug, then we 
will' make the fight, and in our case it will not be humbug. We 
will continue the fight, be the result what it may. (Applause.) 

I again thank you for your courtesy. 

COMMISSION APPRECIATES LORD MAYOR'S 
TESTIMONY 

Mr. Doyle: As the Lord Mayor expects to be in the country for 
some time yet, his services will be at the control of the Commission 
at any time at all that he may be needed for further conference. 

Chairman Wood: Thank you very much. Mr. Lord Mayor, the 
Commission appreciates very much your coming to us, and the very 
clear and dispassionate way in which you have produced the evi- 
dence. We appreciate, from the testimony that has come before us, 
the background out of which you have spoken, and we feel very 



852 

grateful for the personal inconvenience that you have suffered in 
coming to us. We hope if there is anything further that you feel 
like bringing to us at a future time, that you will feel very free to 
ask for a hearing, and we will be glad to give you that opportunity. 

The Witness: I thank you, sir, and I thank you, gentlemen of the 
Commission. 

Chairman Wood: We appreciate, of course, that there are many 
subjects upon which it is not fair to interrogate a person in your 
position, and it is not for lack of interest in the situation that you 
have just come through that we refrain from putting to you any 
questions in regard to merely interesting incidents of your recent 
life. 

We will adjourn until two-thirty this afternoon. 

(Adjournment at 1 P. M.) 



Before the Commission sitting at the Hotel LaFayette, Washing- 
ton, D. C, Friday, January 14, 1921. 

2:30 P. M. 

Chairman Wood: The Commission will please be in order. 

Mr. Basil M. Manly (of counsel) : I will call to the stand Mr. 
Thomas Nolan. (Mr. Nolan takes the witness stand.) 

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS NOLAN 

Q. What is your name? A. Thomas Nolan. 

Q. How old are you, Mr. Nolan? A. Thirty-five years. 

Q. Where were you born? A. I was born in County Clare. 

Q. Where have you lived recently? A. In Gal way. 

Q. What was your business in Galway? A. I was in ladies' 
and gentlemen's outfitting. 

Q. When did you go to Galway? A. In about 1901. 

CONDITIONS IN GALWAY PRIOR TO RAID 

Q. What were the conditions in Galway prior to the raid on the 
town following the shooting by the Black-and-Tans? A. It was 
supposed to be one of the quietest in Ireland. 

Q. Had there been, as far as you now recall, any attacks on the 
police prior to that night? A. There was one attack, but it did not 
happen in the city. It happened somewhere out of the city. Con- 
stable Foley got shot. 

Q. Did any reprisals follow that? A. Yes, sir. They went out 
that night and they burned down the house belonging to Mrs. Kane. 

Q. Who are "they"? A. They were supposed to be the local 
police from Oranmore. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were they Black-and-Tans or military? A. 
They were supposed to be the local police. They asked if her son 



853 

was home that night. Well, he has been shot since. They asked 
him to come down. They said, "Come down, yon coward." So 
they burned the house, — burned the whole place to the ground and 
tore the house up the same night. 

Q. Major Newman: 1 do not think 1 got that date. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you give the date of that? A. It was some- 
time in August. 

Mr. Manly: I was not going into these affairs, because there has 
been testimony of several witnesses with relation to earlier events in 
Galway. I was simply laying a background for events that occurred 
later in Galway, in which he personally participated. There has 
been some testimony, Mr. Chairman, with reference to the shooting 
of several people on the station at Galway that night, after they 
started shooting promiscuously. There is just one incident in con- 
nection with that that has not been testified to by an eye-witness, — 
the killing of James Quirk. 

THE MURDER OF JAMES QUIRK 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were you with James Quirk on the evening that 
the Black-and-Tan Krnmm was shot? A. Yes, sir, I was. 

Q. You were the last person to see him? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you see his body the next day? A. Yes, sir, I saw it 
at seven o'clock the next morning. 

Q. Where was he found? A. The body was taken back to his 
bed. 

Q. You say he was taken back to his bed? A. Yes, sir, by two 
boatmen. The body was borne in betwixt two boatmen. He was 
taken at half-past four from his bed. The mail train came from 
Dublin to Galway. It was to be in Galway at five minutes to 
twelve, — that would be eleven fifty-five. 

Q. Chairman Wood: At night? A. Yes, sir, at night. So this 
night we were going, James Quirk and I, into the gate, and we saw 
a lot of people running down. We asked what had happened, and 
they said that two men were shot up there. I said, "Let us see who 
they are. There might be some accident." So he said, "Let's go 
back home." "Very well," said I. So he went on home, and I said 
good-night to him. And the next morning my landlady said to me, 
"There was terrible trouble in town last night." I said, "What hap- 
pened?" She said, "James Quirk was shot." So I got up early and 
I went down to his house. We happened to be great friends. Miss 
Dooley and Miss Morley were the ladies in the house who brought 
him the priest that morning. So I went up there and saw him on the 
bed with nothing on him but pants and shirt. Of course he was 
covered over with blood, and I did not care much about looking, so 
I went away. I said my prayers and went away. So that is all. 

Q. What was the condition of his body? A. On medical ex- 



854 

animation it was found that eleven bullets had entered his body. 

Q. And he had been shot during the night preceding, — taken 
away from his house and shot down? A. Yes, sir, taken away at 
half past four in the morning. 

Q. Had he been an active Republican, do you know? A. Yes, 
sir, he had been. 

Q. The Chairman: What time did you leave him? A. I left 
him about ten minutes past twelve. 

Q. At night? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you saw his body the next morning? A. Yes, sir, about 
seven o'clock. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Now, at about this time were there any attacks 
on the women of Galway? A. No, sir, — well 

Q. I mean clipping the girls' hair? 

TWO INTENDED MURDER VICTIMS ESCAPE 

A. That morning there were two of the men taken out, a man 
named Joe Cummins and a man named John Broderick. Cummins 
lived in St. Brendans Terrace, and John Broderick lived on Prospect 
Hill. They were taken out that same morning. They brought Cum- 
mins up to where this constable was shot and put him up against 
the door there. It seems they were very drunk, the military, and 
they put him up against the door and gave orders, "Get ready. 
Fire!" And as soon as he heard the word, "Get ready," he dropped 
down to the ground and started to moan, and they said, "We have 
done him." He escaped with one bullet in the ankle. So he scram- 
bled up and went into the hotel by the back way. He had to be 
taken to the hospital immediately, because it was not safe to have 
him there in the hotel. So after they took him from there I do not 
know what happened. 

Q. In the case of Cummins, in what house was Cummins living? 
A. He was living in the house of Mrs. Madden at St. Brendans 
Terrace. 

Q. Was any other house besides Mrs. Madden's visited by the 
Black-and-Tans? A. Yes, they took out a man named Broderick 
the same morning, and something similar happened. He escaped 
too. They took him into a field where he dropped down. That 
morning they also burned down Broderick's house, and right oppo- 
site — I know the two men there. Their names are John Droney and 
Michael Larkin. They rushed across to extinguish the flames, and 
as soon as they did, the military fired, and they had to go back to 
their house again. 

Q. Chairman Wood: As I understand you, they fired at them 
when they went to attempt to put out the flames? A. \es, sir, they 
had to go back again. There was a hail of bullets along the street. 



855 

ATTACKS ON WOMEN OF GALWAY 

Q. Mr. Manly: In the case of Cummins, what was done in con- 
nection with the house at which he was stopping? A. On the Sun- 
day following they called at this house and called out Miss Madden, 
and they cut off her hair. They also called at Miss Broderick's house 
and cut off her hair also; and they went to a house in College Road, 
the Misses Turk, and took the two of them out and cut off their hair. 
They also visited Miss Burke's house. She was staying in Galway, 
working in a dry goods store, a house called McDonald's. She lived 
about three miles from the city of Galway. They went out there in 
the morning about half-past five or six o'clock. A military lorry 
came, and she got out of bed and went out, and they went away. 
She thought when they went away that they might not come back 
again, and she went to bed again. She was not there a half an hour 
when they came back and cut her hair off. She was the sister of 
Father Burke. 

Q. When you say they cut her hair off, what do you mean? A. 
The military did it, because nobody else could be out, especially in 
a military lorry, at that hour of the morning. 

Q. Were they soldiers or the Black-and-Tans? A. They were 
supposed to be the military. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Was any reason given for cutting off her 
hair? A. No reason whatever except that they were strong Re- 
publicans, all those girls. 

Q. Were they members of the Cumann na mBan? A. Yes, sir, 
they were members. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Now, this was in the latter part of August? 
A. No, the Sunday following September 9th, — Thursday would be 
the 9th. The Sunday after that it happened. 

"ON THE RUN" TO ESCAPE POLICE 

Q. Were there any raids on the houses adjacent to your shop at 
this time? A. Yes, sir, there were. 

Q. Will you state about that occasion? A. We had curfew im- 
mediately after this business. 

Q. The curfew had not been in effect at the time of the first 
shooting up of Galway? The curfew was not in effect at that time? 
A. No, sir, not until after September 9th. 

Q. People were afraid to go out and talk to friends, for ex- 
ample, after that date? A. Yes, sir, but it was put on immediately. 
So Mr. Walsh asked me if I'd stay with him when curfew was put on. 
There were a good many raids about the place. 

Q. What was his name? A. Michael Walsh. So he asked me 
if I would stop for a few nights and I said, "Certainly," and I did. 
One night the Black-and-Tans came to where I was stopping 



856 

Q. What night was this? A. A night about the 15th or 16th of 
September; and they came to where I was boarding and they asked 
was Tom Nolan in the house. He said I was not there. It was about 
half-past one in the morning. They said that I should be there, and 
he said I was not. Anyway, they took him out of his bed with no 
boots or stockings on, and no pants or anything except his shirt, and 
they took him down about a hundred yards away and put him up 
against a wall, five of them, and told him if he would not tell where 
I was, they would shoot him dead. So his wife got into an awful 
state, and got up also. There was a man living next door named 
Silvy, and so she asked him for God's sake to get up, that they were 
going to shoot her husband, and to save him. So he got up and put 
on his tunic, pants, and trousers, and ran down after them and told 
them that he was not the man, that I was not stopping at the house 
that particular night, and that he was all right, not to shoot that 
man. 

Q. Did they release him then? A. Yes, sir, they released him. 
And in about a week's time again they called on him. They did not 
take him out the second time, but they said if he did not tell where I 
was they would burn down the house. Of course I was not sleeping 
there. I was somewhere else. 

Q. You were sleeping out that night? A. Yes, sir. Although 
I happened to be working at my store during the day, they never 
came to me during the daytime, — always at night. 

WANTED BY POLICE BECAUSE A REPUBLICAN 

Q. Major Newman: Why did they want you? A. My business 
place was called, "Nolan, Republican Outfitter." That was the sign 
I had. 

Q. Mr. Manly: You had a sign, "Thomas Nolan, Republican 
Outfitter"? A. "T. Nolan, Republican Outfitter." 

Q. Major Newman: That was the reason, was it? A. That 
was the reason, I suppose. 

Q. Mr. Manly: You were an active Republican, — you were 
active in the Republican ranks? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Chairman Wood: What does "Republican Outfitter" mean? 
An outfitter of ideas, or an outfitter of clothes? A. It is to sell 
Irish manufactured goods. 

Q. That does not mean private Republican uniforms? A. There 
were no uniforms, because you would not be allowed to wear a uni- 
form. 

REPEATED RAIDS AND ROBBERY 

Q. Mr. Manly: Following this, what was the next occurrence? 
A. The next occurrence was on the night of the 21st of September. 



857 

There were a good many raids around the city, the houses were being 
wrecked, and Mr. Walsh was expecting a raid; so we were sleeping 
there at night. He might go to bed for a couple of hours, and then 
he would relieve me, and I would go to bed for a couple of hours 
more. We were looking out for those fellows. In any case, this 
night they came, the 21st of September. We were expecting them. 
Mrs. Walsh was there and her eldest boys, Michael, Joe, and Eddie. 
He had eight children, the youngest two years old, — seven boys and 
a girl, — the youngest two and the eldest eleven years of age. So 
they came this night about half-past twelve, and of course we were 
expecting them that night; so we had escaped out at the back, and 
they banged the door with the butts of their rifles, and we ran down- 
stairs and out. They tried to smash in the door, but we had a barri- 
cade. So they smashed a window and came in through the window; 
and then there was terrible firing with rifles and also bombs. He 
had a safe there, and they threw about ten bombs at the safe, but 
they failed to smash it. 

Q. Mrs. Walsh was in the house, was she? A. Mrs. Walsh was 
upstairs at the time. He had a grocery and hardware place as well 
as a bar. He used to sell buckets and all that sort of thing. He 
had three big casks, that I think would contain about 75 gallons each 
when they are filled; so they filled the buckets with whiskey and 
took it away. Mrs. Walsh came down. She thought they were gone 
away. The taps were running at the time, and she turned them off. 
Then one of them came back. 

Q. Do you suppose they had drunk all the whiskey in the mean- 
time, and came back for more? (Laughter.) A. I do not know. 
Anyway, this man went upstairs to where Mrs. Walsh was 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was he an officer, do you know? A. He was 
supposed to be in charge of them, because he gave orders for them 
to go, and all that sort of thing. So he went upstairs where Mrs. 
Walsh and Michael, and Joe, the eldest, were, and the boy asked for 
God's sake not to shoot his mother. Mrs. Walsh held up pretty 
well. So he went into the sitting room and back into the kitchen. 
He had his revolver with him, and he took off the table cover and 
put all the silver and all the glass into the table cover and took it 
out; and came back to Mrs. Walsh and started to kiss her hand. 
There was also a coat there belonging to a man named Dr. Cusack, 
Member of Parliament for North Galway, and he took that away. 
So he bid her good night, and they cleared away. 

Q. Did he take this table cloth filled with silverware with him? 
A. Yes, sir, he took it and the coat also. It was about five o'clock 
by this time. So she thought they would come back again; so her- 
self and her two children went next door to a house called Gillespie's, 
and they took her in for an hour or so. So we came back in the 
back yard in the meantime, and Michael Walsh came and was look- 



858 

ing for his wife. He thought they had taken her away, and he ran 
up and down the street looking for her, crying; and Mrs. Gillespie, 
who was sitting at the window, said his wife was in there. So we 
went back to the house and found everything smashed up. The 
whiskey was all over the house. It was running down the channels, 
and the groceries were smashed up, and everything, and the safe 
pulled out in the middle of the floor. There were revolver shots 
sent in through the keyhole. 

Q. Mr. Manly: You say that there were evidences that they had 
thrown bombs at the safe? A. Yes, sir, they threw bombs at the 
safe. We picked up pieces of the bombs. 

Q. Now, were there any other incidents connected with this night 
that are of importance? A. No, sir, not that night. 

SHOP WRECKED AND LOOTED 

Q. Now, when was the next attack on the house. A. The next 
night. The next night we intended to stop in the house a couple of 
doors away, and go out by the back that night. Curfew was on by 
the time, and we could not get out by the front door, as we would 
be shot if we went out the front. So we attempted to go out and 
get a couple of hours sleep if we could; and we were just about to 
go when the door went bang. I knew it was my place, so we went 
away and heard them firing until about five o'clock in the morning. 

Q. Did you stay in that neighborhood somewhere? A. Yes, sir, 
in the neighborhood. We did not go to bed at all. We stopped there 
all night, and when they were gone away in the morning at about 
five o'clock, I came out and went into my shop and found the whole 
place looted. All the stuff was taken away, and what was not taken 
away was thrown into the street. 

Q. That was ready-made clothing, was it? A. Yes, sir, all made 
up goods, principally. I sold habits for dead people, and things 
that were needed like that. And they had a card attached to it, "You 
are a doomed man." 

Q. Your death shroud was there for you? A. Yes, sir, it is 
there yet. There were two candles lighted on the counter. It seems 
that they could not get to the gas meter, and so they left two candles 
lighted; and I picked the good things up from the street and took 
them into the shop. We patched up as well as we could the door. 
So about two or three nights afterwards they came again and took 
away the remainder. 

Q. What was the condition of the shop when they left? A. It 
was absolutely no use whatever. 

Q. Following this, when was the next attack on the house of Mr. 
Walsh? A. The next attack was on the 20th of October. 

Q. That was the night that he was killed? A. Yes, sir. 



859 

Mr. Manly: I would like to call the attention of the Commission 
to the fact that this is Michael Walsh, the cousin of Miss Nellie 
Craven, who testified here with regard to his death. She testified, 
though, simply on a basis of the letters which she had received. 
This is the same case. 

NO COMPENSATION FROM INSURANCE 

Q. Chairman Wood : Before you start with that, Mr. Nolan, had 
you any insurance on your stock? A. Yes, sir, I had insurance. 

Q. Fire insurance? A. I had insurance for a thousand pounds. 
It was only about seven weeks started. 

Q. Did you ever collect it? A. No, sir, they would not pay any 
insurance. 

Q. What reason did they allege? A. There is no use claiming 
insurance, of course, if you mean compensation. 

Q. No, I mean insurance from the company. A. There is no 
insurance against what the military breaks up in Ireland at the pres- 
ent time. 

Q. Was there such a clause in your policy at the time? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was that fire insurance? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Your place was not burned; that was the difficulty, was it? 
A. Yes, sir, it was not burned. 

Q. So the fire insurance did not protect you? A. No, sir. 

Q. The Chairman : There is such a thing as a riot insurance 
written? A. Yes, sir, but the premium is very high. I could not 
afford to pay that. 

Mr. Manly: It has developed, has it not, that there is a differen- 
tial rate for damage by Crown troops and damage of the Republican 
forces? 

Chairman Wood: Yes. 

Mr. Manly : I think that testimony has been brought out. If not, 
I was going to ask the witness a question on it. 

THE MURDER OF COUNCILLOR MICHAEL WALSH 

Q. Mr. Manly: Just proceed now with the attack on Mr. Walsh's 
house the last night. A. Well, it was about half past nine, and 
there were nine or ten of us there inside. 

Q. Chairman Wood: In your house or Mr. Walsh's? A. In 
Mr. Walsh's house. 

Q. This was in the bar, was it? A. Yes, sir, the bar. And five 
men came in. They were five strangers. They asked for five glasses 
of port wine, and they sat down at the grocery counter, and Mr. 
Walsh himself served them with drink. Then two of them went out 
into the yard, and came back again. That was about half-past nine 



860 

or twenty minutes of ten. They closed the doors and then searched 
our pockets. 

Q. Were those five men in civilian clothes? A. Yes, sir. And 
when they had done that, they told us to clear out, and we did, and 
went outside. There were a lot of Black-and-Tans out there, as we 
call them, and they told us to clear the streets. So we went away 
on our business. There was a boy there named Monaghan, 1 7 years 
of age. Four took out Mr. Walsh and one held up Monoghan. 
They took Mr. Walsh down High Street, down the Fish Market, and 
down to the Spanish Parade, — the river flows just beside the Spanish 
Parade. So they came back about twenty minutes past ten, and of 
course Monaghan was held up all the time. They pointed revolvers, 
these other men who had charge of him. They came back about 
twenty minutes past ten and said, "We have done away with that 
bugger." "Are you going to shoot me too?" said the young fellow. 
"Well," they said, "we are English secret service men; we are secret 
service men, and we know what we are doing. We have not heard 
anything about you yet." So they took a lot of cigarettes, and one 
man went upstairs and got Mr. Walsh's frieze overcoat that hung 
behind the kitchen door, and put it on and walked out. Mrs. Walsh 
was not sleeping in the house at that time. She was stopping with 
her sister. Her sister's husband, Mr. Mahon, was staying with her 
for some time. They said to Mrs. Walsh that her husband was taken 
out, and they did not know what happened. So she went to the 
Augustine fathers, and Father Duffy and another priest went with 
her around the docks, and they stayed, walking all night, looking 
for the body, and could not find it. But at six o'clock in the morn- 
ing, when day broke, two young fishermen found him in the river 
with his hand sticking up; and they took him up and put him into a 
cart and brought him back to his house, and left him on the floor. 
We took his clothes off of him, and took him upstairs and washed 
him. Those two young men who took him out of the water have 
cleared out of the country. 

Q. Did they threaten them? A. Yes, sir, they went to her house 
to find out who took him out of the water; and the two young fel- 
lows named King and a young fisherman, — one was an ex-naval man, 
have cleared out of the country and have not been there since. 

VICTIM REFUSED SERVICES OF A PRIEST 

Q. Now, before they took Mr. Walsh out, was anything said to 
him? A. Yes, sir, there was. Mr. Walsh asked could he see a 
priest. First of all, they said, "You have only an hour to live." 
Mr. Walsh said, "How is that?" He said, "Your time has come; 
you have only an hour to live." He said, "Would you mind letting 
me have a priest?" The man said, "No, sir, you will get no priest." 



861 

He said, "The priests are far worse than yourself." He said, 
"Well," he said to the assistant, "You might give me a glass of 
whiskey," although he never drank in his life except at very odd 
times. So the young fellow gave him a glass of rum. He does not 
drink. They asked him some other questions. 

NO PUBLIC INQUEST HELD 

Q. Was there any inquest held over the body? A. There was 
no inquest. 

Q. This was at about the time when inquests were abolished in 
Ireland, was it? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, was there any military inquiry held? A. Yes, sir, 
there was a secret military inquiry held. 

Q. Do you know whether any verdict was handed down? A. I 
have not heard of any. 

Q. None was made public? A. No, sir. 

MURDERED BECAUSE A REPUBLICAN CITY 
COUNCILLOR 

Q. Major Newman: Did these men give any reason as to why 
they wanted Walsh? Was there any charge against him? A. No, 
sir, there was not any reason except he was a strong Republican, a 
member of the Republican council there. 

Q. Do you know whether he had participated in any attacks on 
the police? A. 0, no, sir, none. 

Q. Mr. Manly: How old a man was he? A. Thirty-nine years. 

Q. How many children did he have? A. He had seven boys 
and a girl. 

Q. Eight children in all? A. Yes, sir. They ranged from two 
years to eleven years. 

Q. And on this evening was his property further destroyed? 
A. Yes, sir, they took away cigarettes. The only thing they took 
was cigarettes and his overcoat. 

HOUSES WRECKED IN GALWAY 

Q. When did you leave Gal way? A. I left Galway about Octo- 
ber some time. The next thing was that of a lot of houses got 
smashed up. 

Q. I was going to ask you what happened following. A. I have 
seen houses wrecked in the suburbs as well as the city. There was 
Mrs. Kelly's at Salthill; Mrs. Kenney, Salthill; Mr. Graham, Salt- 
hill; Mr. Hammon, the West 

Q. Are those private residences? A. Some of them are business 
houses. Also Mr. Connolly, Raven Terrace; Mr. Kine, Raven Ter- 



862 

race; Mr. James Lee, Dominick Street; Mr. Brown, Dominick 
Street; Mr. O'Connor, Main Guard Street; Mr. Moylett, Williams 
Gate; Mr. Glannagan, Merchants Road; John Lee, Woods Quay; 
Mr. Michael Lyden, the Square; Mr. Broderick, Prospect Hill. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Those are all in the city of Galway, or in 
the suburbs? A. Nearly all are in the city except Sal thill. 

Q. You have seen them all? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What was the general condition when you say 
they were wrecked? A. They were all wrecked, because they held 
Republican views. 

Q. I say with regard to the condition of property? A. There 
was the Express office, the Galway Express, a local paper; and also 
Mr. O'Day's place. I have seen the Express, and the machinery was 
all smashed up. 

Q. We have testimony here that following the general raid that 
night in which the Galway Express was raided, that a small paper 
was gotten out the next day. We had that offered in evidence here. 
A. Yes, I saw that. 

Q. Have they continued to issue the Galway Express? Have 
they issued any further paper? A. No, sir, when they saw that 
issue, they went back and smashed that machine also. 

Q. Was that the last issue of the Galway Express? A. Yes, sir, 
that was the last issue. 

Q. Senator Norris: Now, were those houses destroyed? What 
was their condition? Just tell us in a general way. A. Bombs 
were thrown through windows and doors. Doors were smashed and 
furniture taken out into the street and smashed just as match wood 
with sledge hammers. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Were those bombs regular military 
bombs such as they use in the British army? A. Yes, sir. 

DRIVEN OUT OF BUSINESS BY RAIDS 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were there further attacks on your house, or on 
your shop? A. There were. There were two further attacks. Of 
course, that would be about the 25th or the 29th that it was smashed 
up. I could not carry on business. 

Q. It was some sort of a raid? A. Yes, sir, some kind of a raid. 

Q. Were all the goods thrown out? A. The goods were thrown 
out, and that that was left were no good. It was trampled down 

Q. So your whole stock was destroyed? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was the value of your stock? A. About £1,600. 

Q. About $8,000, roughly, in our money? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Why did you leave Galway? A. Well, my life was threat- 
ened, and I had to go. 

Q. You were continually on the run? 



863 

CONTINUOUS MAN-HUNT IN GALWAY: DENTIST 
FLOGGED AND SHOT 

A. I was. They were continually after me from time to time. 
I slept in one house one night, in a certain house in Gal way; and I 
was going back again the next night, but I found out that the city 
was held up. They were searching everybody; and I was told not 
to go near the city under any conditions; that if I did, I would be 
shot. So I did not go that night. I was going back to the same 
house, and that very night they called at that house and took out a 
young man named Hickey, a dentist, and took him out into the road. 

Q. Did they flog him? A. Yes, sir; he has been since shot. 

Q. But they flogged him? They were hunting for you that 
night, and they flogged him? A. Yes, sir. He was afterwards shot 
dead in the streets of Dublin for having his hands in his pockets. 

Q. What was his name? A. Hickey. 

Q. Do you know his first name? A. I do not know his first 
name. 

Q. You say he was a dentist? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And had his place of business in Galway? A. He used to 
work for Mr. Anderson in Galway. 

DAILY RAIDS IN DUBLIN 

Q. Now, where did you go when you left Galway? A. When I 
found out that there was a terrible search for me, I left. They went 
from house to house, so I had to get an automobile, and had to go 
sixty miles into the country to catch the mail train for Dublin. So 
I escaped to Dublin, and I was walking around for three or four 
weeks, sleeping here and there. There was nothing but raids every 
day in Dublin. 

Q. Raids were an everyday occurrence, were they? A. Every 
day you went out you had to go by some by-street, around back. 
But you took no notice of the raids there. They were so common. 
The next thing was Croke Park on the 21st of November. 

Q. You saw innumerable raids, but you did not pay much atten- 
tion to them? A. No, sir, we did not pay any attention to them, 
we were so used to them. 

THE CROKE PARK MASSACRE 

Q. Now, tell us about the Croke Park affair. First, tell us what 
was the occasion for the people going to Croke Park? A. There 
was a challenge match between Dublin and Tipperary. I was in 
company with George Nichols, Chairman of the Galway County 
Council. He is in jail at present. So we went to the match at about 
2:45 o'clock. We were there about half-past two, but the match 
did not start until about three o'clock. It was a quarter of an hour 



864 

late. So we got our tickets in the ordinary way, and we went in the 
stands, and the teams came along, and they got photographed. 

Q. Chairman Wood: How many people were there? A. The 
first papers that came out said there were fifteen thousand. Then 
again they said there were only five thousand. I do not believe there 
were fifteen thousand. 

Q. You were seated where you could see the match? A. 0, yes, 
sir, I saw the match. 

Q. Senator Norris: How many do you think were there? A. I 
would say about seven or eight thousand people. 

Q. Mr. Manly: The grandstand was full? A. The people were 
afraid to go to matches, or to any other place. 

Q. The Chairman : This was a very popular football match, 
was it? A. No, sir, we have bigger matches. We have champion- 
ship matches that draw bigger crowds. This was only a challenge 
match. But anyway, the teams came out to the field and got photo- 
graphed. Dunphy. the umpire, was a very popular man. We were 
not long in the stand before we saw an aeroplane hovering over the 
ground. It circled around the place two or three times, but all were 
interested in the match and did not take any notice of it. They made 
the best of the game all the way through. It was a very interesting 
game, and we were all interested in it. And suddenly we heard a 
terrible volley, and saw soldiers running along the field. I looked 
into the field myself, and saw a man by the name of Hogan of Tip- 
perary. He was shot through the mouth. He was just going for 
the ball, together with a Dublin player named Frank Burke, — the 
two of them were going for the ball, and he was running toward 
the city goal when he got shot through the mouth. Burke did the 
best he could for him. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Who was Burke? A. One of the Dublin 
players. He comes from Kildare. He was a good football player. 
The next thing, they all ran toward the Cloniff side. The soldiers 
were coming in the other side, firing as they came. 

Q. Major Newman: How many soldiers were coming in? A. 
I could not really tell you how many soldiers, because I did not pay 
attention to the number at that time. 

Q. Chairman Wood: The first sound that you heard was the 
sound of a volley of shots? A. Yes, sir, a big volley of shots. 

Q. More than one? A. About a hundred, — more perhaps. 

Q. Major Newman: Shots from rifles? A. Rifles, yes, sir. So 
we all ran that way, and as soon as we did, we were faced by an- 
other crowd of soldiers who started to banging away at us. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Had any of the people in the grand stand been 
shot? A. There was one man beside George Nichols. I do not 
know his name. He was shot right "through the ear, and the man 
next to him was shot right through the hat. 



865 

Q. The other man was not killed? A. No, sir, the other man 
got shot right through the ear. 

Q. It was at the same time? A. Yes, sir, at the same time. It 
seemed to be the one rifle that fired the two shots. 

Q. So there were a number of shots that were fired, — a hundred 
shots, you would estimate, in that volley? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Did you hear any shooting from the crowd 
of any kind? A. No, sir, there was no shooting of any kind what- 
ever, not the slightest. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you hear any shots fired before the general 
volley? A. No, sir, no shots had been fired. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Did you ever hear any rumors that 
there were to be sentries posted by the Irish to watch over the game? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. There was a crowd hanging around the football match, was 
there? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You did not see the soldiers come in, did you? A. Yes, sir, 
I saw them come there. 

Q. Chairman Wood : You did not see them before you heard 
them, did you? A. No, sir; the first thing I heard was the volley. 

Q. Major Newman: You were inside the grounds when they 
fired the first volley? A. Yes, sir, just inside on the stand. One 
crowd comes into the stand by one gate, and the other comes from 
the far side, which is the cheaper gate. They all came this way ( in- 
dicating), and ran toward the Cloniff goal. They were approached 
by the soldiers again, and they ran off toward the gate, and I saw 
women and children and thousands of people trampled on. 

CROWD PANIC-STRICKEN BY SUDDEN ATTACK 

Q. Mr. Manly: The whole crowd was panic stricken? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. It was mad with fear, was it? A. Yes, sir, girls and chil- 
dren. 

Q. Major Newman: Suppose you go ahead with your story 
from where we interrupted you, when the crowd rushed down from 
the grandstand. A. They were in groups, here and there, and one 
man recited the Rosary, and we all answered. It was rumored that 
they were blank shots, but they were not. The man called to us not 
to be afraid, that they were blank shots; but we afterwards found 
out that they were not blank shots. 

INDIVIDUAL SEARCH PROVES CROWD UNARMED 

The next thing they told us was to hold up our hands and keep 
our hands held up over our heads. 



866 

Q. The whole crowd? A. Yes, sir, except they allowed the 
women and children to go out, but kept the whole crowd. As to 
poor Hogan, there was one priest} there who asked for permission 
to go and see him. His name was Father Crotty, I think. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Hogan was the player who was shot in 
the mouth? A. Yes, sir. He was stretched on the field all the 
time. This priest asked permission to go to him, and in half an 
hour's time he got permission; and he had to hold his hands up 
while crossing the field. I saw him going with his two hands up 
like that (indicating). Hogan was dead, though, by the time he got 
there. 

Q. Major Newman: How long did that firing continue? A. It 
continued for about 10 or 12 minutes. 

Q. Senator Norris: What hoppened to the crowd? A. They 
held up their hands for two hours, and everybody was searched. 

Q. They searched everybody? A. Yes, sir, everybody. There 
were two gates, and they let us out by the two gates. 

Q. And as fast as they would search them, they would let them 
out? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And everybody had to be searched before he could get out? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Did you see them find any revolvers there? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Senator Norris: Do you know whether they did find any or 
not? A. Why, sir, there were no revolvers there. 

Q. Mr. Manly: There were no shots fired back even after the 
first volley, were there? A. No, sir, there were no shots fired back. 

Q. And to your personal knowledge there were no revolvers on 
the ground, that you saw, at any rate? A. There were no revolvers. 
It was generally believed that there were no revolvers found at all. 

Q. What was the penalty at that time for carrying arms? A. A 
man was liable to be shot. 

Q. Chairman Wood: What was the legal penalty? A. From 
two to ten years. 

TWELVE CIVILIANS KILLED, SIXTY WOUNDED 

Q. Mr. Manly: Do you recall how many persons were killed? 
A. There were 12 killed. 

Q. How many wounded? A. About 60 were wounded, and 
about a couple of hundred injured. 

Q. You mean injured by being trampled on in the panic? A. 
Yes, sir. 



867 

Q. Major Newman: Were any women or children among the 
killed? A. There was one woman, Miss Boyle. She was shot dead. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Miss Boyle was shot dead, you say? A. Yes, 
sir, she was shot dead. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Were the wounded taken care of dur- 
ing the period while the men were kept with their hands over their 
heads? A. No, sir. They would not let us go near the wounded 
at alt 

Q. Mr. Manly: Are there any further details that you know about 
the Croke Park affair? A. No, sir. It was so short that you could 
not see all that happened. In twenty minutes it was all over. 

Q. Major Newman: Were any arrests made on this occasion? 
A. No, sir. They searched everybody, but there were no arrests. 

Q. And everybody was released? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. There was not a single man arrested? A. No, sir. 

Q. Chairman Wood: If anybody had had a revolver found on 
him, he would have been arrested, according to the practice, would 
be not? A. 0, yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were there any other instances that occurred in 
Dublin before you left the country? 

Q. Chairman Wood: Unusual instances? A. No, sir. That is 
all except minor things, and that I did not attach any importance to. 

TERRORISM AND SHOOTING ON COUNTRY ROADS 

Q. Mr. Manly: What is the general state of mind of the people 
of Dublin as compared with the people in Gal way, for example? Is 
terrorism worse in Dublin? A. It is very bad there. It is terrible 
all around, all out along the country roads. Of course, you cannot 
sleep in a bed at night. You meet them going down the roads. They 
have military lorries that throw a searchlight that can see for miles. 
That is.going on night after night and hour after hour. The cattle 
are shot, and pigs, and everything of that kind. 

Q. Chairman Wood: What happens to the pig or the cow, what- 
ever it is, after it is shot? Do they take it along with them, or leave 
it for the people who come along? A. No, sir. They take away 
the turkeys and geese and chickens. 

Q. They take away the smaller things, do they? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. But you are allowed to go and get your own pig after it has 
been shot? A. Yes, sir, if you will take the trouble. 

EFFECT OF TERRORISM ON WOMEN AND 
CHILDREN 

Q. What effect on yourself, for instance, has this had? You said 
you had not been able to sleep in your own bed, or any other bed, as 
far as that is concerned. How do you sleep' now that you are here, 



868 

over in America? A. 0, yes, sir. I sleep all right. You see you 
get hardened to it, and you do not care what happens. You really 
do not care whether you are shot or not. 

Q. Has your nervous system since broken down any? A. No, 
sir. 

Q. Senator Norris: As a matter of fact, there are a great many 
people whose nerves would be broken down by that? A. It has 
not broken the nerves of any men in Ireland at the present time*. 

Q. Mr. Manly: How about the children? A. The children and 
their mothers feel it most — the old women and the children. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: What will be the effect on the grow- 
ing children of such a thing as that? A. When they do grow up, 
the effect will be there all right. 

Q. Is it not inevitable, no matter how great their courage, that 
the effect on these children cannot help but be disastrous from a 
physiological and a psychological standpoint as well? A. Yes, 
sir. It is hard on the mothers. The young men may only go home 
once a week, and then go away again. They are feeling it worse, the 
mothers. 

Q. Chairman Wood: You are about the same weight that you 
were before the war? A. Yes, sir. I am always about the same 
weight — about 140 pounds. 

TWO PASSPORTS TO LEAVE IRELAND 

Q. Senator Norris: When did you leave Ireland? A. I left 
Ireland on the first of December. 

Q. Did you have any trouble in getting away? A. 0, no sir. 
I had been in quarantine for 22 clays. 

Q. At Ellis Island? A. No, sir, Hoffman Island. 

Q. Did you get a passport? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you have any trouble in getting it? A. 0, no, sir. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Is there any objection on the part of the 
authorities to the Republican outfitters like yourself leaving the 
country? A. No, sir. 

Mr. Manly: He got to Dublin, where he was not very well known. 

Q. Chairman Wood: As a matter of fact, there was no objection 
on the part of the foreign government to people leaving? A. Mr. 
Manly: As a matter of fact, the Republican Government has placed 
a ban on any young men leaving Ireland, and Mr. Nolan was given 
a passport. It was a passport by the Republican Government per- 
mitting him to leave Ireland on account of the destruction. 

Q. Senator Norris: Did he not have to get another passport? 
A. Mr. Manly: Yes, he did not show his passport, the Republican 
passport, when he applied for the other one. 



369 

Q. Chairman Wood: Do you object to showing it to us? A. I 
have no objection. (Producing the passport.) 

Q. This is in two languages, is it not? A. Yes, sir, that is in 
Gaelic. 

Q. Senator Norris: Is this English translation here a correct 
translation? A. Yes, sir, it is. 

Mr. Manly: Suppose you read it aloud, or I will read the English 
translation. (Reading) : 

"Whereas, Thomas Nolan, a citizen of the Irish Republic, has made 
application for a permit to absent himself from Ireland, and has satis- 
fied the Government of the Irish Republic that he has valid reasons 
for leaving Ireland for a limited period, and has complied with the 
regulations prescribed by the Government of the Irish Republic in 
such matters ; 

"Now, therefore, I, being Secretary of State for Home Affairs, do 
hereby permit the said Thomas Nolan to leave Ireland for a period 
of one year from the second day of November, 1920. 

"Given under the seal of the Republic of Ireland this first day of 
November, in the Year of Our Lord, 1920." 

Signed by the Secretary of State for Home Affairs. 

Commissioner Thomas: It is fair to ask, Mr. Counsel, of your 
client what would happen if he had not got this permit? Of course, 
he, being a good Republican, would have gotten it; but what ways 
are there of enforcing this right? 

Mr. Manly: I do not know. I do not suppose there is any way. 
We have had four witnesses on the stand who came over here with- 
out any difficulty. This is simply an assurance that this man has 
complied with that formality, and is not a deserter from the Repub- 
lican cause. That is the whole purpose, to protect his reputation and 
his standing. 

Q. Chairman Wood: You have no objection to the press repre- 
sentatives seeing that paper? A. No, sir, not the slightest. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Is there anything further that you know of that 
we have overlooked? A. I do not think so. 

Chairman Wood: We are very much obliged to you, Mr. Nolan. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



TESTIMONY OF EMIL PEZOLT 

Q. Mr. Basil M. Manly (of counsel) : Your name is Emil Pezolt? 
A. That is it. 

Q. Where were you born? A. Chicago. 

Q. Is your father still living? A. No, my father is dead. He 
has been dead for the last 18 years. My mother is living in Oak- 
land, California. 

Q. How old are you? A. Twenty-one years old. 

Q. Did you enlist during the recent war? A. I endeavored to 
enlist in the Marine Corps, and I did; I was successful in a way, but 



870 

I obtained my induction papers from Washington at the time when 
Mare Island was quarantined on account of the "flu," so I was not 
able to get in, and while I was waiting for my second induction 
papers to come, I was drafted, and sent down to Kelly Field, Texas, 
in the Aviation Corps. And after that the armistice was signed, and 
I was sent back. 

Q. You were mustered out? A. Yes. 

WITNESS GOES TO CORK ON AMERICAN SHIP 

Q. Then what did you do? A. I wanted to be on the go, so I 
got in the merchant marine and shipped out of San Francisco, to the 
Orient chiefly, and several times around to this coast, during the 
last three years, since November, 1918. 

Q. You were in the Shipping Board vessels? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was your ship on this trip to Ireland? A. The West 
Cannon. 

Q. By whom is that chartered? A. I believe Evans & Evans, of 
Portland, are the charterers from the Shipping Board. They sent a 
cargo of wheat to Cork. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Where did you join the West Cannon? A. 
At San Francisco. 

Q. About what date? A. About September 27. 

Q. This last September? A. This last September. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Where did you get your cargo? A. In Port- 
land, Oregon. We left Portland on November 6, I believe. 

Q. What was the cargo? A. Wheat. 

Q. Bound for what port? A. For Cork. 

Q. On what date did you arrive in Cork? A. November 17, 
I believe. 

Q. Chairman Wood: How did you go? A. Through the 
Panama Canal and right over to Queenstown. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Is the West Cannon a large ship? A. She is 
about 8,800 tons, a large Shipping Board tramp. 

Q. Where were you docked in Cork? A. We were docked at 
Lapp's Quay, about four blocks from the city center. 

Q. Major Newman: What was your position on the ship? A. 
Oiler, junior engineer. 

Q. Mr. Manly: How long was the West Cannon lying at Lapp's 
Quay? A. Not quite five weeks. 

Q. When did she sail back? On what date? A. The date we 
sailed was perhaps about December 16. That would make it just 
four weeks. 

Q. Suppose you now take up the story of your own experience in 
Cork. What was your first experience in Cork? 



871 

DAILY HOLDUPS ON CORK STREETS 

A. My first experience? Well, we arrived in Queenstown on a 
Wednesday. Thursday morning I went to Cork. The first night at 
Cork I had to go ashore. We heard rumors on board the ship that 
things were not just as they ought to be. We sent out a couple of 
feelers first to see how things were. It was necessary — I had to go 
to the boot-makers to have my shoes fixed, so I got a little Irishman 
to show me the way. We got abeut three blocks up the quay where 
the boot-maker's place was, and while we were up there, or when we 
had got about half way up there, we looked and saw a lorry pass 
us, and an ambulance was right behind us. It passed us too. We 
got up to what is called the Parliament Bridge in Cork, and there I 
saw a poor fellow being put in an ambulance. I decided that I 
had better chase back and put my shoes in the shoemakers and get 
back to the ship. That was the first night. I stayed on board the 
next night. 

Q. Chairman Wood: What time was this? A. Before 8 o'clock 
in the evening. 

Q. You were told about the curfew, were you? A. Yes, I 
should say. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What was the curfew hour in Cork? A. Ten 
o'clock. 

Q. Following this, were you held up at all that evening? A. 
No, I was not held up that evening. I got back. 

Q. What were your next experiences in Cork? A. What you 
would call everyday experiences after that until December 11. 

Q. What do you call everyday experiences? A. Going ashore 
and being held up, for instance. 

Q. Held up by whom? A. By the military authorities. 
Q. How do they hold you up? A. Well, you are proceeding 
down the street, perhaps thinking of an ice cream cone or something 
—"Halt!" "Stick them up! Up higher! Come here!" 

Q. That is the regular procedure? A. That is the regular pro- 
cedure. No "Advance and be recognized" there. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Do they search you then? A. Yes, sir. 
Of course, if you have a watch or any extra money, you will likely 
miss them. Of course, if you do have a gun — well, it had been 
printed in the papers if any person was found with any arms at all, 
they would be shot. And of course we did not carry any guns. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you see those notices in the papers while you 
were in Cork? A. Yes, sir. 



872 

AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP ABUSED BY CROWN 

FORCES 

Q. Chairman Wood: Did you carry evidence of your American 
citizenship? A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What did you carry? A. A seaman's passport. 

Q. Have you that seaman's passport now? A. Yes, I have one. 
I just obtained it. 

Q. This is not the one that you had when you went to Cork? 
A. No. You can't tell where that is now. 

Q. Major Newman: Did the military authorities ask for your 
passport? Did it make any difference whether you had it or not? 
A. 0, no, they did not worry about that. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What would they say? Did you claim American 
citizenship? A. Whenever they asked me. It was best not to, 
though. 

Q. What do you mean? A. 0, an Irishman is better off there 
than an American. There is no particular love between an English- 
man and an American. I guess you understand that. There is 
nothing like brotherly love, or anything like that. 

Q. Did you have any indications of that during this search? 
What did they say to you that made you think they did not love you? 
A. First of all, there was the terms they used in calling us "Yanks" 
— there is always quite a strong adjective attached to it; and by the 
way they treated you generally. Of course, we could not do any- 
thing. We were told, "Slide on, you blamed Yank"; something like 
that. It was nothing to be held up. It got to be an everyday occur- 
rence, and we did not think anything about it. 

Q. You expected to get your hands up while you were out? A. 
0, sure! 

Q. It got so that they raised automatically? 

ILLEGAL TO HAVE HANDS IN POCKETS 

A. Well, hardly. But an order came out after we had been in 
there perhaps a week or ten days that we were not allowed to walk 
down the streets with our hands in our pockets. It started when the 
captain was up town one afternoon, and he had been ordered to take 
his hands out of his pockets. 

Q. You are referring to the captain of the West Cannon? A. 
Yes, sir, Mr. McGovern. While he was speaking to a young lady, 
he was ordered to take his hands out of his pockets. He did. I 
don't know why, but he just did it. Later that day he was ordered 
to take his hands out of his pockets and he objected. He says, "You 
can search me. I have a perfect right to keep my hands where I 
want to." They said, "He is an American." So they searched him, 



873 

and they let him go at that, and he related the incident to the crew. 
He is very nice. In fact, he goes around with the crew more than 
most captains do. The skippers of ships like that usually associate 
with the officers, but this man did not. He went along with the rest 
of the crew. He related the incident to us, and of course we wanted 
to follow his example. But in my case I did not. 

I was coming back to the ship one evening. It must have been 
about eight o'clock; on the old bridge — I don't remember the name 
of it; it is called the old bridge in Cork. A man dressed in plain 
clothes with a long yellow slicker on him and a soft hat was on 
the opposite side of the street. He says, "Take your hands out of 
your pockets!" I stopped then and thought perhaps I would argue 
with him. He had one hand in his pocket, and I saw the point of a 
gun, and so I decided not to. I kept on. But things like that hap- 
pened all the time, you know. It was not anything out of the 
ordinary. So we got to thinking that they really would not harm 
a Yank, you know; that they had some reasons for not wanting to; 
that perhaps they were afraid that the government might step in 
and do something — our American Government. But I found out 
differently on the night of December 11. 

Q. What happened on the night of December 11? A. I was 
beaten up then. 

ARBITRARY ORDERS GIVEN PEDESTRIANS BY 
MILITARY 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Before that, may I ask you, Mr. 
Witness, whether you were interfered with? Were you allowed to 
make purchases and go about the ordinary business of the town, 
after you were held up and accounted for yourself? A. Many 
times we were ordered back to the ship. Many times, if you were 
going in one direction, you would be told to go in another. 

Q. Arbitrarily, without any rhyme or reason? A. Of course 
they would not give you a reason. They would stop you, halt you. 
Sometimes there was a flock of them. There would be four or six 
different guards, too, at each corner of the crossing, and they woul'd 
hold up and search everybody. You would have to wait your turn 
with your hands up above your head. And eight minutes is quite 
a bit. 

Q. They would be in a military uniform, a black uniform, or 
some other kind? A. Yes, different. Some were in Highland 
uniform, with a tam-o'shanter cap. Others would have black caps, 
brown slickers, and others just soft caps and regular yellow slickers. 

Q. Mr. Manly: The regular soldiers could be distinguished? 
Did not the British soldiers wear khaki in Cork? A. Yes, the 
regular British soldiers, they wore khaki, a good deal like our 
soldiers. 



874 

Q. The others, the men who did the holding up, were men 
dressed in these more or less irregular uniforms? That is, some- 
times with tam-o'-shanters, sometimes in plain clothes, and some- 
times in constabulary uniforms? A. Yes. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Did the tam-o'-shanter men belong to a 
Highland regiment, did you say? A. I don't know. I don't know 
how they classified those, except I know which are the worse, and 
which are the better. 

WITNESS SAVAGELY BEATEN BY BRITISH 
MILITARY 

Q. Senator Norris: Take up December 11th, and tell us what 
happened. A. I went to a theater there, which has been burned 
down since, and got out. They had the pictures. They had the 
program so that the show would end about nine o'clock in order to 
give the people time to get back before the curfew hour. There 
were not many people going to the theaters then on account of the 
raids and things; but we went, my partner and the little friend he 
had, and a girl and myself. I had a little Irish companion over 
there. We went to the theater and got out about nine o'clock. My 
partner proceeded to take his companion home, and I did the same. 
So we must have parted about ten after nine, and I crossed the 
bridge and took my companion on to her home. Shortly after we 
proceeded over the bridge, St. Patrick's Bridge in Cork, we heard 
shots right on the bridge there, and of course it scared the young 
lady, and I will say myself too. But anyway, I took her home and 
told her I had better get back to the ship, because there might be 
some trouble about that evening. I left her there, and started to go 
down along Camden Quay, the shortest way back to the ship, near 
the River Lee there. But she asked me not to go along the quay, 
because we heard the shooting along there; and she said to go along 
Quay Street. So after a little argument, I went along Quay Street. 

I got about half way up to King Street when I was stopped by a 
"couple of Irishmen running down toward me, and they said, "For 
God's sake don't go up there. There is hell to pay up there." An 
American does not like to show that they are scared of the British, 
so I kept going, regardless of what they said. But, sure enough, 
on the corner of King and Patrick Streets there was a party being 
held up. I think there were four civilians being held up by about 
three or four Black-and-Tans. I walked by them, and they did not 
seem to notice me. I got about thirty feet beyond them, and two 
or three of the Britishers stopped me — "Halt! Up higher!" They 
were not satisfied. I had to come forward. I thought, "This is 
going to be a little hold-up. I will just submit to it and hurry 
along." And I did not make a reply, I think. Of course they did 



875 

not find any guns, but they felt around and found my wallet, and 
then one of them found my seaman's passport. He says, "You are 
an American, are you? You are a Yank, are you?" I says, "Yes, 
I am an American." He says, "What are you doing here?" He 
did not use exactly that language. I said, "I am off the West 
Cannon. I am going back there now." He says, "You are, are 
you?" "We know you Americans," he says. Of course there were 
three of them. All three had their guns pressed up against me. 
The third one went along up the street to where there was another 
gang of these — there must have been a full score of them. They had 
just been discharged from a lorry there, — one of the British trucks 
which carry soldiers; and there must have been a good score. I 
heard them say something about "Yankee so and so," you know; 
and the whole flock of them came running down. "Where is he? 
Where is he?" My God, they came down on me. I was standing 
there with my hands in the air. The fellow that seemed to be a 
leader of the gang came up to me first, and he was not dressed in 
regular uniform, but the rest of the men were. He had a long black 
overcoat or raincoat, — I did not take particular notice. 

Senator Norris: He had probably just made a raid and got that 
coat. 

The Witness: No. It seems he had just got off that lorry. And 
he caught hold of my coat and he says, "You are a Yank, are you?" 
He grabbed me, and I said, "Yes." I don't know whether I did say 
yes or not, because I got smashed in the face then, with my hands 
over my head. I noticed he had brass kunckles on. Perhaps you 
know what they are, regular brass knuckles to protect his knuckles. 
So I did not have much time. He proceeded to tear the things right 
out of my pockets; right and left he tore the things out of my 
pockets. And when I got back I did not even have my cuff buttons. 
They took my fountain pen, my comb, every paper I had, except 
two little cards from Blarney Castle. 

Q. Mr. Manly: They did not help any that night, did they? 

REPEATEDLY KICKED AND KNOCKED DOWN 

A. Well, after beating me up, they knocked me down several 
times, kicked me, made me get up. I was knocked out once. My 
head hit the sidewalk pretty hard, and I was knocked out. But they 
kicked me until I came to. They were not satisfied with that. And 
they would make me run — they would halt me and make me come 
back. Of course, I knew when I came back I would be hit again, 
with my hands over my head. He says, "Now, what have you to 
say for yourself?" I don't know why I said it, but I said, "Please 

let me go." So he "says, "Don't please me, you ," and they 

backed me up against the wall. So I did not know what they were 



876 

going to do. They held me there for a little while. There were 
about eight of them. I don't know where the rest of them went. 
There must have been about eight of them. The leader says, "Rope 
him." He says, "Now, sing your Yankee song," although he classi- 
fied it a little differently. I didn't sing any Yankee song, though. 
He told me to slide on; and after I started to slide on, he kicked 
me and called me back again. Of course this is close to the end. 
So he hit me again, probably several times. 

Q. Did he hit you in the face? A. Oh, yes. My face was all 
bruised, and I had- a big cut down the side. MacSwiney can tell 
you that. Well, I had marks all over the body when I got back to 
the ship. I asked him then whether he would let me pick up my 
belongings that were around the street, and I got a kick for that. 
He told me to run or he would shoot me. I did not exactly run, 
but I got away from him. I was halted about two hundred feet of 
them by just a few of them, and I told them, "For God's sake let me 
go. I have just been held up." 

AMERICAN CONSUL UNABLE TO SECURE REDRESS 

I got back and I told the captain about it. So he said he would 
go to the American Consul with me the following day. That was on 
a Saturday night, and Sunday, of course, we could not go. On 
Monday the captain was busy, so we did not go clown there until 
Tuesday. That was Tuesday, the 14th of December. So the captain 
took me clown to Queenstown to the American Consul, and I told 
him about it, and he had me swear to a detailed statement. 

Q. What was the American Consul's name? A. Mr. Mason 
Mitchell. He had me swear to a detailed statement, and he said he 
would try as far as he could to get my papers, as if that was the 
main thing. Of course, I told them it was not so much the papers 
as it was protecting an American seaman when he came to port. 
Probably the next one would get killed. I don't know, but he did 
not listen to that. The next day he came on board the ship and 
told me he had sent a telegram to a General Strickland, and this 
General Strickland has sent him a reply stating it would be impos- 
sible to find out the culprits on account of the evidence I gave them 
and the description of their clothes. Furthermore, they had left 
the town, — something to that effect. And that has been the end of it. 

Q. Did the American Consul give you a paper then to explain? 
A. Yes, he gave me a note. 

Q. Have you it there? A. Yes, I believe I have. 

Mr. Manly: This is a letter signed by Mason Mitchell, dated Cork, 
Ireland, December 15, 1920, addressed to the Commissioner of 
Immigration, Newport News, Virginia. (Reading) : 



877 

"Sir: I have to inform you that Emil Pezolt, oiler on the steamship 
West Cannon, was held up by the patrol in the City of Cork, Ireland, 
on the evening of December 11, 1920. They assaulted him without 
any provocation, beat him, and took from him his passport and dis- 
charge papers. I have taken the matter up with the general in com- 
mand of the district, but up to the time of the sailing of the West 
Cannon have been unable to have the papers restored, on account of 
the police who perpetrated this act have left Cock. 

"I am, sir, your obedient servant, 

(Signed) "Mason Mitchell, American Consul." 

ROBBED OF ALL MONEY AND PAPERS 

Q. Senator Norris: Did they take your money? A. I had a 
few pounds and a ten-dollar American note on me. 

Q. Did they take that? A. They took everything I had. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you know how many pounds, approxi- 
mately? A. About four or five. It was not more than twenty 
dollars in British money and ten dollars in American money. 

Q. Senator Norris: You had about thirty dollars that they took 
away from you? A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Also your papers? A. Yes. 

Q. And also the wallet? 

COMPLAINT FILED WITH SECRETARY OF STATE 

A. Yes. This (indicating) is the letter I wrote to the State 
Department. 

Q. This is the complaint you filed with the State Department? 
A. Well, I was not sure whether the American Consul had done 
anything in regard to the matter; whether he had really done any- 
thing, because seamen know better than citizens do that many Amer- 
ican consuls really don't care; that they would not do anything 
against an English sailor or anything against the English, it seems 
to me, because it is known that if you ask any American sailor, he 
will tell you the same thing. It is known all through the world. 

Q. Major Newman: Is Mr. Mitchell an Englishman or an Amer- 
ican? A. I was not sure. I wanted to find out whether the State 
Department of Washington had ever heard about it, so I wrote this 
letter. 

Q. Mr. Manly: This is a detailed statement you filed at that 
time? It is addressed to the Honorable Secretary of State, Wash- 
ington, D. C. 

Senator Norris: I do not believe I would read it. 

Chairman Wood: I do not believe there is any advantage in that. 
Did the witness see anything of any fire? Is he going to describe 
what he saw in Cork? 

Mr. Manly: Yes, sir. We will take that up right away. 



878 

Q. Mr. Manly: You are not an Irishman, are you? A. Hardly. 
I am an American. 

Q. What was the nationality of your father? A. My father was 
French, although at the time he got his citizen papers from the 
States here, Alsace was under the German rule. But my father's 
ancestors were all French. The name Pezolt is a French name. 

Q. Senator Norris: Of course he had to give his nationality as 
German when he got his papers? A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Did you wear any kind of uniform? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. You were in ordinary civilian clothes? A. Yes, sir. 

THE BURNING OF CORK 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you see the burning of Cork? A. The big 
burning of Cork, where it burned the most, was that night I got 
beat up. It was shortly after I got back to the ship. Some of the 
fellows on deck discovered the flames in the city. We noticed them 
first on one side of the city and then on the other side of the city. 
We noticed it was larger than usual. Many of the fellows stayed 
up that night and watched it. It must have started about 11 o'clock, 
December 11th. 

Q. Chairman Wood: You had gone to bed and did jiot see it? 
A. I saw the beginning of it. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did you go into the city the next morning? A. 
No. The captain, the first mate, the second mate, the chief engineer, 
— in fact, almost all the officers went up. They were in full uni- 
form, and went up to find the damage that had been done to the 
City Hall. We noticed the City Hall still burning Sunday morning. 
They got up to the City Hall and were ordered right back, regardless 
of being Americans. There were about a dozen young soldiers, the 
'mates told me, that ran them back with bayonets. I think the captain 
felt a couple of them, and he was pretty angry when he got back. 

Q. Senator Norris: You mean he felt a couple of the bayonets? 
AT Yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly: You saw the ruins of various places, did you 
not? A. I did not go ashore that morning, but in the afternoon 
my partner, Pete Henderson, and myself went up town to find out 
what had really happened up there; and we saw that all of Patrick 
Street, the main street in Cork, had burned out. If any of you saw 
San Francisco after the earthquake, you know how Patrick Street 
looked. 

Q. Were you in San Francisco during the earthquake? A. I 
saw the ruins a year after. 

Q. And Cork looked about like San Francisco looked after the 
earthquake? A. Just the same. 



879 

Mr. Manly: I think that is all, unless there are some further 
questions. 

Chairman Wood: All right. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Manly: There are three sailors here from the West Cannon 
that I would like to put on for a moment or two. 

Chairman Wood: Very well. 



TESTIMONY OF HENRY TURK 

Q. Mr. Manly: What is your full name? A. Henry Turk. 
Q. Where were you born? A. San Francisco. 
Q. How old are you? A. Twenty-six. 
Q. You are a sailor on the West Cannon? A. Yes, sir. 
Q. What is you position? A. I am a messman, steward's de- 
partment. 

PEZOLT BADLY BEATEN AND BRUISED 

Q. Were you on the West Cannon at the same time that Mr. 
Pezolt was? A. Yes. 

Q. And you were in Cork during the time he mentioned? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Pezolt on the evening when he returned? 
A. I just happened to be in the mess room the moment he returned. 

Q. What was his condition? A. He was very much bruised 
and cut up. His clothes were soiled from probably being dragged 
around the street. He had several cuts in the face, and on his cheek 
was a large smear of dirt from his having probably been dragged 
along the street, and his face also touched the ground. 

BURNING OF CORK AN EXPECTED CLIMAX 

Q. Did you see the flames that evening of the burning of Cork? 
A. Yes, sir. I saw them probably the first time they were dis- 
covered on the ship. I remained awake until about one o'clock, and 
the whole sky was lit up, not only from the main place in Cork 
itself, but also a reflection in the sky from the place in Dillon's 
Corner, the outskirts of the town. 

Q. The place at Dillon's Corner started burning that evening? 
A. About 8 o'clock. I happened to be up in the crow's nest, and 
watched it for an hour. We were more or less excited, and watched 
it an hour. 

Q. Had you been out in the city that night? A. I had returned 
about 8 o'clock. 

Q. Was there any excitement in the streets of the city at that 
time? A. The way things had been going the previous week, it 



880 

looked like there was some sort of a climax coming along. Every- 
body was being held up and terrorized more or less generally. I 
remember that I was keeping a little note book, and I remember 
writing that afternoon that things probably had come to a climax; 
and sure enough they did. The people were all more or less terri- 
fied that night; and not wishing to be in any trouble myself, I re- 
turned to the ship early. About nine the rest of the crew began 
coming back and relating their different experineces in town. It 
was at that time that I saw Mr. Pezolt. 

GIRL SHOT IN. WANTON FIRING ON STREET 

Q. Had you yourself had any experiences? A. Well, I have 
had quite a number of experiences over there. The thing that in- 
terested me most was that one evening a friend of mine and myself 
were in Evans' book store on Patrick Street, the main book store in 
town, about six-thirty, buying some books. After buying some 
books, we left and walked down the street. And about seven o'clock, 
just about an hour later, a lorry, — I am not quite sure whether of 
Black-and-Tans or just the military, — in passing by they opened up 
their machine gun, right on the store. As it happened, fortunately, 
there was only one little girl standing there, and she was shot be- 
hind the ear. We had heard of the firing, so we came back and 
looked in one of the plate-glass windows. We counted seven bullet 
holes, and each one was on the level of the body of a person coming 
along the street. It seemed to me that not only had they shot in the 
store, but this store was on the corner, and they had probably shot 
down the side street too. 

Q. Was there any account in the newspapers of occurrences 
of that sort? Did you see any account of this particular case? A. 
To the best of my memory I believe there was, yes. 

Q. You think there was of this case? A. I believe there was 
some account of it. Of course, they cannot go into details in the 
newspaper accounts. They just mentioned the shooting on Patrick 
Street, a little girl shot. 

Q. No statement of who did the shooting? A. No. 

Q. Senator Norris: Was the little girl killed? A. No, she was 
shot in the ear, and taken to the infirmary, and her wound was 
declared not to be serious. 

CORK LIKE SAN FRANCISCO AFTER FIRE 

Q. Major Newman: Did you go up into Cork the morning fol- 
lowing the fire? A. The first opportunity I had to go ashore was 
about eight-thirty, right after breakfast. I went ashore and walked 
around town, different places, until eleven-thirty. Then I returned, 






881 

and went out and stayed until about four; and then went up in the 
evening again. I wanted to see all I could see. 

Q. What did you see generally? A. Mr. Pezolt mentioned the 
fact of it appearing like the San Francisco fire. I happened to be 
in San Francisco at the fire and immediately after, and that is about 
the best description you can give of it. The streets were just a mass 
of ruins and debris. The tram lines were unable to run. There was 
no gas or electricity in the city for several days following. 

CIVILIANS PATROL RUINS 

Q. Was the city being patrolled at the time you went up there? 
A. I should imagine there were about 25 of the Royal Irish, but 
they made no effort to keep people away from falling ruins. They 
just stood around with their guns in their arms. And about two- 
thirty that afternoon I was walking along South Mall, and there 
was quite a crowd collected. An ambulance came along and took 
away a man who had been either killed or very seriously hurt by 
falling ruins. But there was no one around to guard those ruins at 
all, except some of the civilians themselves. They just appointed 
themselves as more or less policemen and guards around the ruins 
to warn people away. 

Q. That is, civilians of Cork? A. Yes, sir. 

A CONTRAST IN RESPECT FOR DEAD 

There is just one thing I would like to mention, if I could. And 
that is, the most pathetic thing I remember in Cork in connection 
with the killing of the people over there is that they usually com- 
bine the funerals. There are three or four of the men buried at one 
time; and the bodies are carried along the streets on the shoulders 
of their comrades. They are draped with the Republican colors. 
Following the bodies come the mourners, the relatives, and probably 
the members of their society. Then immediately following that is 
an armored car with machine guns, and three or four lorries of 
heavily armed men. Each one has got a trench helmet on, and guns 
all leveled at the people on the sidewalk and the corners. That is 
not an exception. Every funeral I have seen was carried on that 
way. 

Q. And you saw several funerals? A. I saw about half a 
dozen. I saw four men buried at one time, three at another, and I 
saw at different times two each. 

Q. These are the funerals of Republicans that you are speaking 
of now? A. Yes, sir. It seems to me it is generally considered 
that we can show respect to the dead, no matter under what condi- 
tions, or what feelings you have had for them. But no respect is 
shown that way at all. And as a contrast, when the 16 men, I be- 



882 

lieve it was, that were ambushed at Macroom were shipped away 
from Cork, I saw the bodies placed on the ships in the harbor, the 
British men-of-war; and the people of Cork, I think voluntarily, 
declared a holiday in respect to these Black-and-Tans who were 
shot; and from 11 to 2 every shop, every business place, was closed, 
and the people along the streets, either Irish Republicans or just 
the plain people, the plain citizens of the town, as the bodies were 
carried past each one doffed his hat until the body had passed. That 
is just a contrast. 

Mr. Manly: Are there any other questions? 

The Chairman: No, that is all. Thank you very much. 



TESTIMONY OF.HAROLD JOHNSON 

Q. Mr. Manly: What is your name? A. Harold Johnson. 

Q. Where were you born? A. Bucks County, Pennsylvania. 

Q. Were you on the West Cannon? A. I was. 

Q. While it was docked in Cork? A. Yes, all the time we were 
in Cork. 

Q. Did you go about the city a great deal? A. Yes, especially 
in the daytime. I was night watchman from 12 midnight until 8 
A. M., and I spent most of the day in the city, and sometimes after 
dark, but not very often, — generally during the day. And I often 
walked in the country as well and talked with the people in the 
surrounding country. 

SINN FEIN NOT A CLASS MOVEMENT 
Q. What was your purpose in making these inquiries? A. I 
wanted to learn all I could about the movement in every way. I 
wanted to find out if it was, as I was given to understand, something 
connected with Bolshevism. That was the impression I gained from 
reading the papers before going there. I wanted to see if that was 
it, or if it was a movement in which the people took part. As far 
as I could see, — and I talked with shopkeepers more than anyone 
else, and in the warehouses, — the poor people were not more in- 
clined toward Sinn Fein than the shopkeepers, I should think. There 
would have been trouble sure, because the shopkeepers were very 
strongly — they certainly were anti-English, at any rate, and Sinn 
Feiners, and the farmers as well. 

Q. It was not a class movement as you saw it? A. No, I should 
say certainly not. 

Q. Did you find any Bolshevism? A. No, not from what I 
heard of the movement, I do not think there was, — apparently none. 
It was simply anti-English. As I understand, the word Sinn Fein 
means "Ourselves alone"; and they thought they could rule the 
country better than the English could, and under the Irish flag. 



883 

NO JUSTIFICATION FOR REPRISALS AT DILLON'S 

CORNERS 

Q. Did you go down and look at the houses at Dillon's Corners? 
A. I was there twice, once Sunday afternoon, — that is, Sunday, 
the 12th of December; and once on Tuesday, the 14th of December; 
the first time in company with Mr. Turk and Mr. Taylor here, and 
one other man. We simply passed through. At that time the ruins 
were still smoking. Two days following we had a chance to make a 
more extensive investigation. 

Q. What did you find out as the result of your investigation? 
A. On both occasions we tried to get the people to talk, but they 
were badly scared and would hardly talk. But they denied there 
had been any ambush. From the version I heard from three differ- 
ent people, — one a man, one little girl, and one a lady, — they all 
claimed that the bomb had exploded in the lorry accidentally as it 
was passing a vacant lot. Whereas the version which was given in 
the Cork paper, in the British report, was that the lorry slowed up 
for a turn there, at the corner, and that more than one bomb was 
hurled from behind a stone wall, and one man was killed and eight 
wounded. At any rate, there were six houses burned, four of them, 
say, within twenty yards of the place where this ambush was sup- 
posed to have occurred. That is about as near as there were any 
houses to it. Around the corner, on the other side of the right 
angle, about 150 yards from the place where the ambush was said to 
have occurred, two others were burned. These were larger houses 
than the others. I could not see what connection those two houses 
could possibly have with the affair. They could not overlook the 
road, and it seemed to me they could have no connection at all. As 
I stood around on the other side of the right angle Tuesday after- 
noon I heard a lorry coming, and almost immediately I heard a 
shot fired. Some children were playing on the corner, and they ran 
into the houses, and women too. The lorry came around the corner 
full tilt. There were soldiers with trench helmets on. They were 
brandishing their rifles and laughing. 

I talked with the ladies there, too. After they found out I was 
an American they were willing to talk, and one of them said her 
husband had been arrested as soon as the ambush occurred, and had 
only got loose the preceding day; but several others had not come 
back yet. They had been arrested and were still under arrest at 
that time. The impression I got was they had certainly done a 
thorough job in terrorizing the people in that district. 

GENERAL DEMOLITION IN QUEENSTOWN 

Q. Did you go down to Queenstown? A. The fourth of De- 
cember I went down there. 

Q. What did you see as to the condition in Queenstown? A. I 



884 

walked along the street fronting the quay. I should say, rather, 
there were two or three streets that fronted the quay, and I counted 
thirty-two shop fronts that were more or less damaged there. I 
was told before I left that this damage had taken place about a 
month before, and they could have had time to repair it had they 
ever intended to, or had the means to repair it. But the shops were 
in bad condition. Some of them had been patched up in a fashion, 
and some not at all. I did not go into any, but you could look past 
the shop front and you could see the show cases in some cases 
smashed. The damage had been very extensive. It was just a 
hasty investigation. As I say, I counted thirty-two shop fronts that 
had been damaged, some of them apparently by bullets and others 
by the butts of guns. At any rate, they were completely smashed. 
They seemed to have done a great deal of shooting. Also, some of 
the street lamps were smashed. 

Q. The town generally was in a state of wreck? A. Well, the 
shops were, yes, sir, and the street lamps. Otherwise, not so bad. 
I understood there was no curfew in Queenstown, but quite a few 
people were getting hurt, and in some cases killed, from time to 
time. 

Q. Senator Norris: What proportion of the shop windows were 
injured in any way? A. I should say a third, anyhow. They had 
not taken every one; but I should say a third. 

Q. Mr. Manly: In how many blocks would you say those thirty- 
two were smashed? A. They do not go very much by blocks there. 
The streets are irregular. I don't know how you would figure it. 

Q. Was it in half a mile? A. Yes, in about half a mile, I 
guess. The street winds along the waterfront. That was the most 
noticeable thing about Queenstown. 

DAILY HOLDUPS ON STREETS OF CORK 

I saw some Highlanders, soldiers with steel helmets on, the Mon- 
day I got off the train. They were standing in the middle of the 
street. I did not see any Black-and-Tans until the week beginning 
the 5th of December, or the 6lh, I should say. And on Monday of 
that week I first noticed them holding people up in the street. 1 
had heard a great deal of it, but never saw it before. Every day 
that week I would go out about 3:30 in the afternoon. This holding 
up would start at that time, and I made it a point to be out on the 
streets at that time to see it. You could see them going around and 
holding them up. The Black-and-Tans wore uniforms of a tam-o'- 
shanter cap; they had either puttees or high shoes and a sort of 
khaki trousers, something like that; sometimes ulsters and long 
coats. They went about the streets in twos. There would be two 
here, and then twenty yards ahead two others, and so on. They 



885 

did not always point their revolvers or pistols directly at the people, 
but they had them in their hands ready. I saw one of them who 
carried a bomb. This was kept up every day of the week preceding 
the fire, as well as putting; threatening notices in the paper. I saw 
one case where a man with an unusually large automatic held up 
about 20 people while another searched them. I saw at the same 
time some of the Royal Irish form a blockade at Washington Street, 
apparently for no reason. I came up to one end of the street and 
was told I could not go past; and I turned back and walked two 
blocks and went right past. One would not let me through, but the 
other did not stop me. 

Personally I was never searched myself. I have been turned back 
many times, but I have not been searched, probably because I did 
not come out after dark very much. The other men on the ship, 
nearly all of them, went at one time or another out after dark. 

Q. You were on night duty and could not get away? A. 1 
could have got away. 

Q. You liked to watch the excitement during the daytime, and 
not at night? A. Yes. 

PEZOLT BATTERED BY ASSAILANTS 

Q. Did you see Pezolt the evening he came in? A. No, I did 
not. I saw him the next day, and he had a scar about four inches 
long. 

Q. You mean a cut? A. A cut here (indicating). And he 
showed me his suit, and it looked as if it had been thrown into a 
mud puddle. I was asleep and did not see him that night. I was 
down town until about 6:30 that evening. I went to sleep, and 1 
got up when I heard the fires. I got up once and went to bed again, 
and got up again about 1 :30 in the morning. 

WRECKED SHOPS POORLY PROTECTED FROM 
LOOTING 

We went to town about 9 o'clock in the morning, I and this gen- 
tleman and Mr. Taylor and one other. We went up past the burning 
City Hall. There were two Royal Irish who questioned us, but let 
us pass, and then we went to the center of the town. First we went 
to King Street, and we could see where they had gone along the 
street the night before. You could see numbers of bullet holes. 
We visited a jewelry store, one of the largest in the town. I had 
heard the night before it had been smashed into, and it evidently 
had by the state of it, and about half the contents carried away. 
When we were there nobody was molesting the jewelry store. On 
Patrick Street, no guards were there, only perhaps 30 of the Royal 
Irish were on duty to guard about five acres of property, places 



886 

that had been burned and looted, and so forth. On the back street 
there were civilians, — I heard later they were Sinn Fein special 
police. They had no badge of authority or arms of any kind. They 
kept the people back fcom the burning walls. There were no 
barricades stretched except what they stretched themselves. The 
Royal Irish did the best they could, but 25 men could not do much. 

Q. There were no troops that day to protect the property from 
looting? A. I believe they came about 12:30, but only on St. 
Patrick's Street. On King Street and the side streets near Patrick 
Street there were no troops. They guarded Patrick Street thor- 
oughly, and the real danger from looting and from falling walls 
was on the side streets. I walked along the shop fronts, and it would 
have been easy to carry away valuable stuff if a man wanted to, — 
valuable stuff that would be needed by poor people, such as clothing 
of all kinds and food stuffs; but no one did it. 

Q. You saw no looting? A. I saw no looting. I was along that 
street several times for two hours, and I saw no looting of any kind. 

Mr. Manly: That is all, unless the Commission has some questions. 

Chairman Wood: That is all. Thank you very much. 



TESTIMONY OF RALPH TAYLOR 

Q. Mr. Manly: What is your full name? A. Ralph Taylor. 
Q. Where were you born? A. Scott Township, Pennsylvania. 
Q. How old are you? A. Twenty-two the seventh of last July. 
Q. You are a sailor on the West Cannon? A. I was officers' 
mess man. 

PEZOLT BADLY BATTERED 

Q. Did you see Mr. Pezolt when he returned to the ship that 
evening? A. Yes, sir, I did. I was right on deck at the head of 
the gang plank when he came on. 

Q. What was his condition? A. His condition was as he has 
stated. There was a long scar down the side of his face. The back 
of his head was bruised. There was dirt along his cheek. His 
clothes were all mussed up, dirty. There were about half a dozen 
boys on deck discussing what had taken place in the evening, and we 
saw him come walking down on the quay pretty fast. He came up 
the gang plank and he said, "Well, I got mine tonight." And he told 
us what had happened, and went right up and told the captain. The 
captain kept him up there five or six minutes, as near as I could 
tell, and he came down and went aft. 



887 

HOLDUPS AND AGENTS PROVOCATEURS ON 
STREETS 

Q. Were you held up and searched yourself while you were in 
Cork? A. Yes, sir, I have been held up and searched. 

Q. Was this in the evening, at night only? A. No, sir. Any 
time from 3.30 or 4 o'clock you could find them on the streets. The 
postoffice seemed to be their general place. You could never tell 
when they would hold you up, though. Half the time they might be 
in uniform, and a part of the time in civilian clothes. You could 
never tell who you were talking to. Several times men have come 
up to me and started running down the British Government, and 
tried to get me to state my opinions, just to get you to tell what you 
think about it, and they keep track of you until they get an oppor- 
tunity to take it up. 

Q. You say men came up to you and started talking about the 
British Government? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Disrespectfully? A. Yes, sir. Never had seen them be- 
fore at all. The Irish people that were there, you would see them 
going around — they would come up. If they spoke to you at all — 
they can recognize an American as far as they can see them — and 
they would start to say, "Is not this terrible? Is not this awful?" 
and get you to sympathize with them. But these British police 
there, the Black-and-Tans, whoever they happened to be, would just 
come up and start to run down the British Limey. 

Q. What is a British Limey? A. British sailors are known as 
British Limeys. 

Q. American sailors call them Limeys? A. Not all. Limie — 
Limo — from lime juice, I guess. 

YOUNG GIRLS HELD UP AND SEARCHED 

Q. Were there any particular instances that came to your 
knowledge that you feel ought to be put in the record? A. I can- 
not add much to what the men have said about the general condition 
in Cork. There were a few instances I witnessed. There was a 
dance hall called Mac's Dance Hall. He had been in the United 
States quite a while, and gone back there and was teaching dancing. 
I used to go up there and stay a couple of hours after supper. 
Coming down one night, about 7:30 or 8 o'clock, I was right at the 
corner of the street coming down to the quay. About ten feet off 
the corner there were two men. One of them was back on the curb 
with a revolver in his hand flourishing it this way. Right in front 
of him were three girls running in age from 15 to 20 years old, 
reaching for the sky. Another man was up there feeling all over 
their persons, searching them, making a bluff of searchiing them. I 



888 

don't know what their object was. You could tell by looking at the 
girls that they did not have a place to conceal a gun or anything. 
It just happened to be the practice, or something. I don't know. 
I stood there about three minutes on the corner watching them. No 
one said a word to me. They let the girls go, and I went on down. 

PASSPORTS TAKEN FROM AMERICAN SAILORS 

It is nothing unusual to be walking along the streets and hear 
somebody say, "Halt! Put them up, up, up!" They come up and 
search you. "Well, it is all right. We will let it go at searching 
you." Once in a while they would take your watch out, take the back 
off, and examine the movements. They did that with the chief 
officer's watch. They will examine all your papers. Two or three 
of the men had their passports taken, two that I know of. 

Q. One of those two was Pezolt? A. Yes. 

Q. Did any of the other men lose papers? A. None that I 
know of. I have heard several 

Q. Did they carry any papers with them when they went out? 
A. There was one A. B. seaman was out there one night. It was 
the first we ever noticed their taking from them. They took his 
passport. 

Q. What was his name? A. Scanlon. He goes clown and tells 
the captain. The captain goes up to headquarters to try and get 
the passport, and they did not know anything about it, and he could 
not get any satisfaction. He had to go to the consul to get another 
passport. After that the majority of us left our passports and any 
papers that we had on board, and did not take any more money than 
we had to, and what we did, we packed in our socks. 

Q. So the reason they did not take anything away from you was 
because you did not have anything with you? A. Yes, sir. This 
boy happened to be one of the unfortunates that night. There were 
not many that did. 

Mr. Manly: Any questions by the Commission? 

Chairman Wood: I think not. Thank you very much. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



MR. PETER MACSWINEY WILLING TO ANSWER 
QUESTIONS 

Mr. Manly: Mr. Chairman, there were some questions this morn- 
ing about matters that the Lord Mayor did not know about. One 
of them was the Queenstown affair. It has later been cleared up by 
these witnesses. But Mr. Peter MacSwiney is here, and while he 
does not desire to give testimony, he is quite willing to appear before 
the Commission and answer any questions. He saw all that the 



889 

Lord Mayor saw, and is ready to corroborate it, if the Commission 
desires. If not, he has no desire to take the stand. 

Chairman Wood: If there is anything that you think he can add 
to what has been said in the way of new testimony, we would be 
very glad to hear him. He will be in this country for our meetings 
next week, I presume, if there is anything he wants to say. 

Mr. Manly: You will be here and available if the Commission 
wants you later, will you not, Mr. MacSwiney? 

Mr. Peter J. MacSwiney : Yes, sir, but I do not think there is any- 
thing I can add to what has been said by the Lord Mayor. I was in 
Queenstown and saw what was there. The gentleman was asked 
about Queenstown awhile ago, about how many blocks, and he said 
he was not able to give a correct description. It is the whole beach 
from one end to the other which was wrecked. I saw that myself. I 
do not know that there is anything else I can add to what has been 
said. 

Chairman Wood: Thank you very much. 

.Mr. MacSwiney : If there are any questions, I have seen the lorries 
going through Cork with soldiers who were drunk. I saw them 
firing at the national monument, at the Grand Parade. I saw that 
with my two eyes. They were shooting, and anybody passing by 
was likely to be shot. 

Chairman Wood: Come forward, Mr. MacSwiney, so that we can 
all see you, at any rate. (Mr. MacSwiney takes the stand. ) 

TESTIMONY OF PETER J. MACSWINEY 

Q. Mr. Manly: Mr. MacSwiney, first of all, are you a brother of 
the late Lord Mayor of Cork? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What is your first name? A. Peter — Peter J. 

Q. You are an American citizen, as I understand it? A. Yes, 
sir. 

Q. Of how long standing? You were not born here, were you? 

A. I was naturalized in 1916, four years ago. 

Q. Where do you reside now? A. In New York. 

CORROBORATES PEZOLT'S TESTIMONY 
Q. If there is anything you would like to add in regard to 
Queenstown, we will be glad to hear you. We asked Lord Mayor 
O'Callaghan in regard to Queenstown, and you have heard the testi- 
mony of this sailor from the West Cannon. A. Yes, and I would 
like to corroborate that. I saw Pezolt when he came on board the 
ship — at least when I came on board the ship. I was on three days 
before anybody saw me, and when I came up I saw Pezolt, and I 
f^ot talking to him. He had a big scar right along here, and he told 
me how it happened, that he got beaten and robbed. And, in fact, 



890 

I was responsible for having him here. I thought that he would be a 
very good witness to get here. He showed me his papers of which 
he was robbed — a copy of his papers, and a letter from Mr. Mason 
Mitchell to the Commander of the Forces in Cork, demanding an 
explanation, demanding his passport and seaman's certificate. This 
man was robbed of all his money and his papers. I saw those 
papers on the ship, and I thought it would be a very good thing for 
him as an American citizen, a man who never had seen Ireland be- 
fore, born in San Francisco, who had never been in the country 
before, to come here and give some first-hand information of what 
was going on over there. 

Of course, as to the lorries and all that, I did not think it was 
necessary for me to come up here and repeat what had been said, as 
I told Mr. Frank Walsh this morning, that that has been already said. 

Q. You did hear what has been said, and you can corroborate it? 

A. Exactly. 

UNIFORMED CAPTAIN OF AMERICAN SHIP 
SUBJECTED TO INDIGNITIES 

Q. The statements are all very accurate? A. Very accurate. 
The captain of the West Cannon told me himself that he was going 
around the streets of Cork, and as he described it, every ten minutes 
he was like this (indicating), a gun at his stomach. He would go 
along two blocks further, and he would be like this again (indicat- 
ing), with his hands up all the time, and he had no peace. The fact 
that he was an American citizen in uniform did not scare them, and 
he was subjected to every indignity possible. 

Q. Senator Norris: How long were you there. A. I was in 
Cork about two months. I was about three weeks in London before 
I went there. 

PUBLIC MEN "ON THE RUN" TO PROTECT LIVES 

Q. What effect, if any, has this treatment that has been going on 
there had on the people themselves? A. The treatment that the 
people have been subjected to has only strengthened their determina- 
tion to continue the fight. 

Q. Yes, I can see how that would be. But I am trying to find 
out whether the women, for instance, and I think the men, too, and 
the children — what is their nervous condition? A. Well, it is like 
this. People going to bed at night are never sure whether they will 
be alive in the morning or not. Any public man, any man holding 
public office — and of course everybody in office in Ireland today is a 
Republican because the government of Ireland is a Republican gov- 
ernment, and it is functioning — and every public man cannot sleep 



891 

in his own home, you see. He runs into the city during the day to 
attend to his official duties, but at night he has always got to find 
a place to sleep. 

Q. He must find a secret place, as I understand it? A. Yes. 

Q. He must not let anybody know where he is? A. No. He 
cannot sleep twice, probably, in the same bed. He has got to find 
a different house every night. 

Q. Chairman Wood : Were you on the run all the time you were 
in Ireland? A. No, I walked about the city. 

UNABLE TO SLEEP IN OWN HOME 

Q. How about sleeping? A. I will tell you about that. My 
sisters were very nervous, you see, about my sleeping in the house. 
There was a time when a man used to be a protection in the house, 
but now it seems 

Q. He has turned from an asset into a liability? A. A man 
in the house now is a danger, because the military go around looking 
for the men to shoot them, the volunteers especially. But, I being 
an American citizen, felt at perfect ease. Of course, I was held up 
in the usual way several times and searched, but I was not robbed — 
nothing like that. But at night time, in order to satisfy my sisters — 
they told me that it would be absolutely dangerous for me to sleep at 
home; that they could not sleep if I was in the house. Of course, I 
had plenty of houses to go to. There were all kinds of invitations 
everywhere to sleep in safe places. My sisters said that if they let 
me sleep at home I would — 0, they said it was absolutely dangerous, 
and they knew better than I. The military go around all the time 
looking for the men to shoot them. Of course I, coming over, and 
going through that horrible business which you probably have heard 
about, being beaten up there by the military, they said that I should 
take no chances. 

Q. Now, Mr. MacSwiney, when you say your sisters told you 
there were plenty of safe places to sleep, what is a safe place? 

Mr. Manly: He said plenty of other places. 

Chairman Wood: I thought he said a safe place. I did not know 
there was a safe place to sleep in Ireland. 

A. The witness: A safe place is the house of somebody who is not 
connected with the movement. 

REPUBLICAN HOMES PICKED OUT FOR RAIDING 

Q. Chairman Wood: Then they do single out those who are 

known to be active Republican people, to search the houses? A. 

All the time — anybody at all connected with the movement, all the 
time. In fact, every week there is a raid. 



892 

Q. But non-politicals are more or less safe? A. 0, no. No 
one is safe at all. 

Q. But there is a better chance if you can find a non-political 
house? A. Yes. A man named Coleman, who was never identi- 
fied with the movement, was shot while I was there, and he was 
never connected in any way at all with office or with individuals. 
He was attacked one night and shot dead. 

The Chairman: Yes, we have had testimony about that. 1 

Q. Mr. Manly: One of those unfortunate mistakes? A. Yes. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Yes, shoot first and learn afterwards. A. 
He was the owner of a saloon. Some of the Black-and-Tans who 
had been in there one night had used foul language, and he refused 
to serve them the following evening when they came in. And the 
next night he was called out and shot. 

SOLDIERS WANTONLY SHOOT AT NATIONAL 
MONUMENT 

Q. Mr. Manly: About what date did this shooting at the National 
Monument take place? A. I could not tell you the exact date. 

Q. Approximately? A. It would be approximately about a 
week after I landed in Cork, probably the second week of November. 

Q. Probably the second week in November? A. Yes, some 
time around there. 

Q. This was wanton shooting? A. Wanton shooting, yes; and 
I saw it with my own eyes, coming along. They seemed to be 
drunken soldiers. 

Q. They were in a lorry? A. Yes. 

Q. Are there any further points, Mr. MacSwiney, that you want 
to speak of? A. I do not think so. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Is there anything you want to say to us in 
particular? A. No, only to thank you for your kindness. 

Chairman Wood : Thank you very much for coming before us, Mr. 
MacSwiney. 

( The witness was thereupon excused. ) 

Chairman Wood: The next meeting will be on Wednesday of next 
week at ten o'clock in this room. At that time we expect to have 
with us Mr. Dempsey, the Lord Mayor of Mallow, Miss Louise Ben- 
nett and a friend of hers, members of the Women's International 
League, from Dublin or Cork, I don't remember which. 

Mr. Manley: Miss Bennett is an English woman, is she not? 

Chairman Wood: I think that she was born in Ireland. Mr. Faw- 
sitt also expects to come before us, and possibly some other wit- 
nesses. The Commission will adjourn, then, until 10 o'clock next 
Wednesday morning. 

(Adjourned 4:40 p. m.) 



1 See testimony of Lord Mayor O'Callaghan. 



SIXTH HEARINGS 

ON CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Session One 

Before the Commission, sitting in the Hotel LaFayette, Washing- 
ton, D. C, Wednesday, January 19, 1921. 

Chairman Wood: The Commission will come to order, and we 
will proceed with the testimony of the Lord Mayor of Mallow. 

Mr. Dempsey: Not Lord Mayor, but Mayor. 

Chairman Wood: 0, yes, there are only three Lord Mayors in 
Ireland. 

(The witness takes the stand.) 

TESTIMONY OF MR. FRANK DEMPSEY 

Q. Chairman Wood: Will you give your name? A. My name 
is Frank Dempsey. 

Q. What is your position in the town of Mallow? 

ELECTED CHAIRMAN OF MALLOW URBAN 
COUNCIL 

A. Well, I am chairman of the council, or mayor, as you like. 
Chairman of the council stands in the same position as mayor of a 
town. 

Q. The official title of the council is the Urban Council of 
Mallow? A. Exactly. 

Q. You were born in Mallow, were you? A. No, I was born in 
Tipperary, in Thurles. 

Q. About how large a town is Mallow? A. About 4,500 the 
last census. 

Q. Where is Mallow? A. It is in the County of Cork, about 
21 miles from the city of Cork. 

Q. South of Cork? A. No, it is north of Cork. 

Q. Mr. Basil M. Manly: When were you elected to the Urban 
Council, Mr. Dempsey? A. Well, there was no election during 
the war. I was co-opted to the council. Any vacancy that takes 
place in the council between, say, the death of a councillor and the 

893 



894 

election of a new council, they do not elect a member — they co-op 
them; the members of the council co-op some man from the town. 
And I was co-opted first in 1917. 

Q. And then you were elected in the election of 1918? A. Yes, 
I was elected from my own ward. 

Q. And what ticket, as we say in America, were you running on? 
A. Republican. 

MAJORITY OF COUNCIL REPUBLICAN 

Q. What is the composition as regards party of the Urban 
Council of Mallow? How many Republicans and how many 
Unionists? A. On the council there are 21 members. At the last 
election there were 12 of these returned on the Republican ticket. 
There were 7 of what were called independent members, and two 
Unionists. 

Q. About the independent members: will you explain their 
political position? A. Well, at the time they ran they were in the 
main followers of the Constitutional movement. That is the move- 
ment which the late Mr. Redmond was the head of. I would say that 
since then, owing to the terrors that are going on in the country, all 
seven have come over to the Republican side. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: It is 19 to 2 now? A. Yes, on any 
question of Republican interest it would be 19 to 2. As a proof of 
that, when we, early in 1920 — in February, when we pledged our 
allegiance to the Republic, the voting was 19 to 2. The only mem- 
bers who voted against it were the two Unionists. 

Q. Chairman Wood: How did they come to be on the council — 
by proportional representation? A. Yes, they were elected. The 
election was carried on under proportional representation. Of 
course, proportional representation is a perfectly fair manner of 
election, because it gives representation to practically all the people. 

Q. Senator Norris: It gives representation to the minority, and 
these two represented the minority. A. Exactly. 

Q. Mr. Manly: But without proportional representation you 
would have had a Republican council from the last election? A. 
From the beginning, under the old system of election, all twenty-one 
seats would have been filled by Republicans. 

REFUSAL OF IRISH RAILWAYMEN TO TRANSPORT 
MUNITIONS OR ARMED TROOPS 

Q. What is your occupation, Mr. Dempsey? A. A locomotive 
engineer. 

Q. On what line are you employed? A. The Great Southern 
& Western Railway, a line which runs throughout the south and west 
of Ireland, 



895 

Q. You are a member of the engineers' union, the drivers' union, 
are you not? A. Yes. 

Q. Will you tell the Commission at this point what the policy of 
the organized railwaymen of Ireland has been, and the general de- 
velopments that have taken place in that policy towards the handling 
of munitions? A. The railwaymen as a whole, I would say, with 
the rest of the population of Ireland, in our part of Ireland at any 
rate, they are practically all Republicans. The stand they took with 
regard to the carrying of munitions was this: in England the rail- 
waymen's union, headed by Mr. Thomas, said that they would not 
carry in England munitions for Poland to be used against the Rus- 
sian Government. We in Ireland had meetings, and we said that if 
it was fair for the English railway workers to refuse to carry 
munitions to help the Poles to fight Russia, it was also fair for us 
to say that we would not carry munitions in Ireland to shoot down 
our own countrymen. That was the standpoint the railwaymen took 
it from. We held meetings in different portions of the country, and 
these resolutions were carried, and carried out. 

Q. Chairman Wood: About what date did this happen? A. 
About seven months ago. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Is this position still held by the rail- 
way union men? A. That position held on for about six months, 
I should say. The Irish railroads are practically under Govern- 
ment control, and have been since the war. The Government took 
steps that every man who refused to carry troops or munitions of 
war was automatically dismissed. That went on for so long that 
there were very few railwaymen left. They had closed quite a lot 
of branch lines in the country, and they threatened to close and 
would have closed all the main lines in the country, which would 
mean, and which meant in fact that a number of our people, the vast 
majority of our people, would go hungry through want of proper 
transportation. We have not the means in Ireland that you people 
have in America for transportation. Our means of transportation is 
the railway, and the railway alone. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Will you give more clearly to the Commission 
exactly what the orders and resolutions of the railwaymen included 
with reference to handling soldiers and troops which were not armed, 
and handling supplies that were not munitions of war? A. The 
railway men at their meetings agreed that they would carry any 
troops that were unarmed, troops going round from military bar- 
racks to barracks, or going on leave; provided they were not armed, 
we would carry any amount of them — we would not make an ex- 
ception to one or a hundred. The only class of munitions we ob- 
jected to was killing material. We would carry food and clothing. 
Killing material would be guns of any sort, arms, or ammunition. 



896 

RAILWAYMEN RESCIND EMBARGO ON ARMS TO 
SAVE COUNTRY'S ECONOMIC LIFE 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: I understand, then, following the 
question, that at the end of six months the unions receded from 
their position. A. Well, the railwaymen found out — we found out 
ourselves, that if we carried on to thq end we were killing the 
economic life of our country, and our own people were suffering 
rather than the people we wanted to hit. 

Q. The British Government brought over lorries, I suppose. A. 
Yes, they brought over lorries in great numbers, and we could not 
help that, of course. 

Q. What help did you get from the English Railwaymen, from 
Mr. J. H. Thomas? A. Well, we got all the sympathy in the 
world, but that was all we got. 

Q. What was Mr. Thomas' attitude towards your position? A. 
He said it was an Irish question. His union would not interfere 
with the Irish Railway Workers. It was a question for the Irish 
railwaymen alone. In other words, he gave us all kinds of sym- 
pathy, but no kind of help. 

Q. Chairman Wood: What is the connection between the Irish 
railwaymen's union and the English union? A. Well, it is all one 
union in England, Ireland, and Scotland. We have our own head- 
quarters, but there is a joint agreement between the unions. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Do you include in this union the 
railwaymen in Ulster? A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What was the attitude of the railwaymen in 
Ulster? A. In and around Belfast they did not take much notice 
of what we were doing, but in other parts of Ulster, in Donegal and 
Derry, and with the exception of two countries — in fact, the first rail- 
way to close in Ireland was an Ulster railway, the Donegal & Lough 
Swilly Railway, I believe; they closed down because they had no 
men to drive their trains; the drivers were practically all dismissed. 

Q. Will you make, in this connection, a distinction between the 
driver and the guard — what we call here the conductor, and the other 
members of the train crew? A. Well, when the military came on 
the platform, the conductor of the train saw them, whether they 
were armed or were not. We were not supposed to search for arms, 
but if he could see that they had arms in their hands, the conductor 
came and told us at once. When they got on the train the conductor 
went to the officer in charge of the troops, or to the person in 
charge, whoever he happened to be, and told him he was sorry we 
could not carry them on account of the fact that they had arms on 
them. At the start of it the troops kept on board the train and would 
not get off, with the result that the people could no go anywhere. 
The train was automatically cancelled. The Government changed 



897 

their attitude after about a mouth of that, and what they did was that 
they usually got off the train after a quarter of an hour or so and 
allowed the train to proceed. But when the driver and the guard 
who had refused to carry the troops got to their destination, they 
were dismissed for refusing to carry the troops. 

Q. The whole situation centered on the driver and the guard? 

A. Yes, exactly- The rest of them were not connected with it. 
The driver and the guard were the main ones. The troops would 
have got on the train without anybody else touching them. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: If I remember clearly, from certain 
English authorities there came news that the change in attitude of 
the railwaymen was a great victory for Dublin Castle, and showed 
the weakness of the railwaymen. But do I understand from you 
that it was not a weakness on the part of the men, but a change in 
policy because they did not desire to make their countrymen suffer? 
A. Exactly. The reason we receded from our position was that 
we realized we were ruining the economic life of our country. And 
for that reason we saw we had made a mistake, and receded from 
our position. 

Q. You mean there was no other reason for the change in 
tactics? A. No, none. 

Q. Mr. Manly: But during that time the British Government used 
lorries to carry their armed troops? A. Exactly. Of course they 
had lorries before that going around throughout the country which 
the railwaymen did not touch. But when the railwaymen refused to 
carry armed troops, they brought over shiploads of lorries and 
carried their troops in these lorries all over the country. 

NO HELP FROM BRITISH LABOR 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Has there ever been a suggestion in 
England that the workers should put the same sort of embargo on 
the carrying of supplies for the war in Ireland that they have put 
on the carrying of arms for war against Russia? A. Well, in a 
couple of sections there was some discussion of it, but they took no 
action as a whole. We get all of their volumes, and we see that in 
some of their meetings there were suggestions made by members 
that they help their brothers in Ireland, but nothing was done 
about it. 

COST AND NUMBER OF CROWN FORCES IN 
IRELAND 

Q. Senator Norris: Do you know how much England has spent 
since the armistice to carry on war in Ireland? A. Well, I don't 
know, but I know it is an enormous amount of money. 

Q. Could you say whether, if she had saved this sum, she would 



898 

be able to pay the interest she owes us on her war borrowings? A. 
I could not say, but you understand as well as I do that an army 
costs a great deal to maintain, and I saw in your press that you are 
cutting down your army because it costs so much to keep it up. 

Senator Norris: Yes, but we do not have any place to borrow 
money from as England does. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: What is the size of the army of occupa- 
tion that England has in Ireland now? A. Well, they have never 
given the real figures, but I should think it would be about 100,000 
altogether. 

Q. That includes the Royal Irish Constabulary? A. The Royal 
Irish Constabulary and the Black-and-Tans and all told. Of course 
they say they have about 60,000, but we know the figures are more 
than that. 

MILITARY OCCUPATION AND DESTRUCTION 
THROUGHOUT IRELAND 

Q. And what part of Ireland is under military or Black-and-Tan 
occupation? A. Well, some parts of Ireland are occupied more 
than others. Now, for instance, the more disturbed the area is — the 
disturbance is caused by themselves — but the more disturbed the 
area is, the more troops there are, the more Black-and-Tans there 
are. In Ulster, I am told (I have not been in Ulster much), but in 
Ulster I am told there are also many. Through the south and west 
of Ireland, however, there are more than in other parts of Ireland. 

Q. Are lorries running about through all Ireland, or just the 
southern part of the country? A. O, yes, throughout all of 
Ireland. 

Q. Are there burnings in all of Ireland, or are they limited? A. 
I should say yes. Because even in Ulster, in the most Unionist part 
of Ulster, there are Republicans too. And although I have not the 
figures, I know that there have been burnings in Ulster. 

Q. Chairman Wood: How recently have you traveled about 
Ireland, aside from your own district of Mallow? The information 
you give about other districts is what you read in the press — you 
have not been an eye-witness? A. Well, I have not been an eye- 
witness to them, but I have seen the places after they have been 
burned. My occupation takes me all through Kerry, and I have 
seen burned houses in other counties, in Kilkenny and Tipperary. 

Q. How far do the burnings go in the northwest? A. All 
through the northwest — Donegal, Leitrim, and Roscommon. 

Q. Why I asked is that we have a map here showing destructions 
and burnings of towns in different parts of Ireland. But what I 
wanted to know is how extensive that is. A. Well, they are general 
throughout Ireland, but they are worse in the south of Ireland. 



899 

RAIDS AND BURNINGS IN ULSTER 

Mr. Manly (showing map) : I would like to call attention to the 
fact that this map is not complete. You see the dots here and here 
(indicating) show where places have been burned and sacked. We 
have had testimony from Miss Wilkinson and others here stating 
that Lisburn and other places in the north have been destroyed. I 
understand that the chart from which this map was made was made 
last September, and does not show many of the most serious burn- 
ings that have taken place since that time. 

The Witness: Of course, I was not an eye-witness, but I have seen 
a village, Camlough, in the County of Antrim, the most Unionist 
county in Ireland, and Camlough was burned the other day. 

Mr. Manly: I would like to call your attention — it was in our 
press dispatches — to a drive that took place in Armagh, one of the 
Ulster counties just south of Antrim. It is said to be one of the 
biggest drives that have taken place in Ireland: 300 persons arrested 
and held for some time, and then all released September 13th. 

Commissioner Howe: That sounds like A. Mitchell Palmer's raids. 

Mr. Manly: Well, he has not had the experience that the British 
have. He has only had four years, but this has been going on for 
more than four centuries. 

WITNESS' OCCUPATION IN SOUTH AND WEST 
IRELAND 

Q. Commissioner Howe: What was your run as an engineer? 
A. Well, we changed about. 

Q. Did you cover a good part of Ireland in your runs? A. 
Well, an area of about one hundred miles. It would be about a 
hundred miles. I went from Mallow to Cork, and from Cork to 
Tralee; and the following week you would change about, and we 
would go to Fermoy. 

Q. So you saw a good deal of Ireland? A. No, the men on the 
main lines run the lines between them. I was off the main lines. 
There is a branch between Mallow and Tralee and Waterford. The 
south and west of Ireland was my run. The men living in Cork and 
Dublin have their own runs on the main line. 

Q. Mr. Manly: But your runs were practically confined to the 
south and west of Ireland, radiating out of Cork. A. Yes, exactly. 

REPEATED RAIDS ON HOME 

Q. Let me ask you what is the size of your family. A. Well, 
my wife is dead, but I have four little children. The youngest child 
was two months old when her mother died. 



900 

Q. Senator Norris: When did she die? A. In 1915. At the 
end of 1915. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Are there any others living in the family with 
you? A. Yes, my father-in-law and mother-in-law are living with 
me. 

Q. So that there are seven in the family? A. Yes. 

Q. Have there been any raids on your home? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Will you tell us about them? A. Well, the first raid on my 
house was in 1916, but that was nothing exceptional. After the 
rebellion they raided practically every house in the country to search 
for arms and seditious literature. 

Q. Senator Norris: When did they raid it, in the night or day? 
A. In the daytime in 1916. 

Q. What did they do? A. They just came into the house and 
searched it. They did no damage whatever. 

Q. Chairman Wood: That was carried out by the Royal Irish 
Constabulary, was it? A. Yes, in 1916. 

Q. Mr. Manly: After that, when was the next raid? A. The 
next raid would be about the first week in October of this year. 

Q. Senator Norris: No, last year, you mean. A. Yes, last 
year— 1920. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What was the apparent purpose of that raid? 

RAIDED AND CORRESPONDENCE SEIZED FOLLOW- 
ING COMMISSION'S INVITATION TO TESTIFY 

A. Well, I wasn't there at the time they came, but the officer in 
charge told my mother-in-law that he had come to search the house 
for concealed arms and seditious literature. They came about 
eleven o'clock at night, and searched the house from top to bottom. 
They took away quite a lot of private correspondence and public 
correspondence that I had, and took it away to the military bar- 
racks. 

Q. Had you prior to this time received the invitation of this 
Commission to come here and testify? A. Yes, about three or four 
days prior to the second raid on my house. 

Q. The first raid was in 1916? A. Yes, the first raid on my 
house was in 1916, and the next raid was about three days after I got 
the invitation of this Commission to come here and testify about the 
condition of Mallow. 

Q. Senator Norris: The people had all gone to bed, and they 
came and raided the house and compelled them to get up? A. Yes. 
I happened to be home, but thistime I was in Tralee. They came 
I happened to be home, but this time I was in Tralee. They came 
and knocked at the door — they do not knock at the door very gently 



901 

in Ireland; they use the butt of their rifles. My mother-in-law got 
up, and this officer and an old officer of the R. I. C. (we are particu- 
larly lucky in Mallow; we haven't as many Black-and-Tans there 
yet as in some other places, because there are still some of the old 
R. I. C. ) . And they came in and searched all my papers. 

Q. Did they tear up anything — any furniture, or break up any- 
thing? A. No. They made a very thorough search of the house, 
but they did not materially damage the property. They pulled 
down beds and pictures and loose things to search, but they did 
not destroy anything. 

Q. When was the next raid? A. About a week after that. 

Q. That was a third raid? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly: And that was similar to the second raid you have 
described? A. Yes, exactly. 

Q. Senator Norris: Did they take anything else away with them? 
A. They took away some papers that they overlooked the first time. 

Q. What time was that? A. Between eleven and twelve at 
night. 

Q. Mr. Manly: And when was the next raid? A. Shortly after 
that. It was in the daytime. 

Q. What was the character of that raid? A. Well, they just 
came in and asked for me, and looked around the house. 

Q. They were looking for papers? A. Yes, exactly. 

ARMED RAIDER PROFFERS RETURN OF 
CORRESPONDENCE 

Q. Was there another raid following that? A. Yes, there was 
a raid on Sunday night. 

Q. Will you tell about the general circumstances of that raid? 
A. Well, they had come three times to my house within a fortnight. 
I need not tell you that we in Ireland are not very anxious to meet 
these gentlemen when they do come to our homes. It was Sunday 
night, and I happened to be at my own door about a quarter to nine. 
We have a curfew in Mallow at nine o'clock. Everybody has to be 
in their house between the hours of nine and three in the morning. 
At about quarter to nine I happened to be at home, and I was turn- 
ing over in my own mind whether I should stay at home or go out. 
And one of my little girls came to me and asked, "Daddy, will you 
sleep at home tonight?" I took her advice and said I would. So 
I went inside and sat down in the kitchen, reading from nine o'clock 
to about quarter to ten. My father-in-law was out walking, — he is 
also a railroad man. There was nobody up but my second child 
and my mother-in-law. 

Q. What is her name? A. May, May Dempsey. About quarter 
to ten a violent knocking came to the door, and I said to myself, 



902 

it just serves me right for stopping in. I knew at once by the knock 
it was the military. My mother-in-law went to the door and asked 
who was there, and the officer in charge said, "Military. Open!" 
He asked if I was inside. And she said I was inside with my child. 
Of course the house had been surrounded by this time by the mili- 
tary, and it would have been only madness to try to get away. You 
cannot get away after they surround the house like that. He came 
in with a revolver in his hand, and this second girl of mine is very 
fond of me, and when she saw the revolver in the officer's hand she 
thought he was going to shoot me, and she threw herself in front 
of me and shouted out, "Oh, Daddy, you are going to be shot!" I 
said to the officer, "There is no occasion for that sort of thing. 
There is a child here." And he said, "Oh, that is right." And he 
put the revolver in his pocket. He was more courteous than some 
of them you meet. He said, "Mr. Dempsey, I have quite a lot ot 
correspondence of yours in the military barracks, and you can get 
that correspondence any time you call for it." I said, "I don't know 
what correspondence you have from me, because you took the cor- 
respondence away in my absence." I said, "Don't you think, since 
you took it away, that you ought to bring it back?" He said, "I 
don't see what there is wrong about asking you to come to the bar- 
racks for it." I said, "No, but considering the fact that you took 
it away, you might bring it back." He said, "Well, then, I will 
send it back." And then he went away. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did he give any other reason for coming to see 
you after curfew with a revolver in his hand except that to tell you 
that if you called for your correspondence you could have it? A. 
No, none at all. My belief is that he had come to the house four 
times previously, and on these occasions I was not there. This was 
on a Sunday night, and on Sunday nights very few of the railway 
men work. On the other occasions when he came, I was not there; 
and he made it his business to find out that I was off duty when he 
came. My opinion, — of course I could not swear to it, but my 
candid opinion is that he came to see if I was on the run. That 
made me very plucky when he did not arrest me; because if he had 
had any definite charge against me which he could prove, he would 
have arrested me. 

Q. Did he send back your papers? A. No, he didn't send back 
my papers. 

RECEIVES PASSPORT FOLLOWING RAIDS 

Meantime I had looked for the passport. I had applied for it a 
couple of days after getting the invitation from this Commission. 
It usually takes from ten days to a fortnight to have a passport 
issued. But my passport was between six and seven weeks, and 1 



903 

had no answer to it. I had asked the clerk of the Crown police, 
who is the man who puts your application through; and he told me 
that he had no news of it. I was turning over the fact in my mind 
to know why it was that they were not giving me the passport, and 
I said to myself that the reason for so many raids in such a short 
time in my house was the fact that they didn't want to give me the 
passport; they wanted to find out if they could sustain a charge 
against me, and so refuse the passport. Because about two days 
after the last raid on my house, the passport was issued to me. 

Q. What was the date of the last raid on your house? A. It 
would be about the 21st of December, I think. I am not exactly 
sure of that, but it would be a few days before Christmas, at any 
rate, because I postponed the visit to your Commission myself, as 
Christmas was so near. I said I would not come until after Christ- 
mas. And I sailed on the first boat after Christmas. 

MALLOW QUIET AND PROSPEROUS BEFORE 
BURNING 

Q. What was the date of the burning of Mallow? A. The 
twenty-seventh of September last. 

Q. What had been the general conditions in Mallow prior to 
that time? A. Well, I am not a native of Mallow, but I have been 
living in Mallow for a long time. 

Q." Chairman Wood: How long a time, Mr. Dempsey— ten 
years? A. I am living in Mallow about fourteen years. And a 
quieter town or a more prosperous town there was not in all Ireland. 

Q. What business have they there? A. Well, they have the 
usual business of Ireland. The country around Mallow is very 
agricultural, and the people brought in their agricultural products 
into the town and sold them. They have their fairs and markets. 
But the principal business was a large condensed milk factory which 
employed five to six hundred hands. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Who is that owned by? A. By a Mr. Cleeves 
of Limerick. He has large condensed milk factories all over Ire- 
land. 

Q. How does that rank in size? A. That is the second largest 
in Ireland. Limerick has the largest. 

Q. What troops were stationed in Mallow prior to the burning? 
A. Well, in the military barrack there was a troop of lancers. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Lancers is a cavalry regiment? A. Yes, 
the Seventeenth Lancers. And in the police barrack there were a 
number of police and Black-and-Tans. 

Q. Senator Norris: How large a town is Mallow? A. About 
4,500, sir. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What are the conditions in Mallow? A. What 
do you mean? 



904 

MALLOW A CRIMELESS TOWN 

Q. About crime. Have there been any serious crimes in Mal- 
low? A. No, never. 

Q. Have there been any cases of murder there, or arson? A. 
No, never. It was a model town from the crime point of view. We 
have had no crime there like you sometimes see in Ireland. A man 
gets drunk sometimes. The usual charge before a court up to the 
war was a man having his cow out on the road, or his donkey astray. 
That was the only crime that we had, if you call that crime. We 
are a very quiet, peaceful people. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: No hold-ups? A. No hold-ups. 

Q. Major Newman: No robbery of houses? A. Well, I would 
not say that there never had been any robbery there. I do not 
know. Even in a model town there might be a robbery in fourteen 
years. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Is there a custom of giving British magistrates 
a pair of white gloves when there is no crime brought before the 
magistrate? A. Yes, when there are no cases brought before the 
court. 

Q. Do you know whether at any time in this fourteen years a 
magistrate has received a pair of white gloves? A. Yes, he did; 
almost every time he got a pair of white gloves. He must have a 
whole store of white gloves. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: How often would he come,— every six 
months? A. They were the quarter sessions. You see, the petty 
court sits every week. And then about every three months the re- 
corder comes to Mallow. I am talking of Mallow now prior to 
1916. Of course, since 1916 and 1917 and 1918 and now the courts 
of Mallow are doing nothing. 

Q. Major Newman: To get back to this custom of giving white 
gloves. Just what is this custom? A. If there are no serious 
crimes brought before the grand jury, the jury presents the recorder 
with a pair of white gloves. 

Q. And that happened frequently prior to 1916? A. Yes, fre- 
quently. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: What is the salary of these recorders? 
A. I don't know exactly. I should say about £1500. It would be 
quite close to it. 

Q. Are they Irishmen? A. Yes, some of them are. They are 
practitioners of the law. 

Q. But they are not sent over from England? A. No, they 
are not. 



905 

MAGISTRATES RESIGN IN PROTEST AGAINST 
BRITISH POLICY 

Q. Mr. Manly: Do you know how many of them have resigned 
during the past year? A. Well, I would not say that any of the 
recorders have resigned. 

Q. But the magistrates? The magistrates who try petty cases? 
A. About 95 per cent, of them have resigned, with the exception of 
the resident magistrates, who are paid officials. The ordinary magis- 
trates are not paid officials. They are called "the great army of 
the unpaid." They get the honor of putting J. P. after their names, 
and they do their work for nothing. Of course they are honorable 
men. 

Q. But the resignations which have occurred are of men holding 
very prominent positions in Ireland? A. Oh, yes; they are doctors 
and business men and others of irfluence and position. 

Q. Do you recall whether Sir Thomas Stafford, the British Privy 
Counsellor in Ireland, resigned? A. Well, I saw it in the papers 
that he did. 

Q. Do you recall whether this is a quotation from his letter of 
resignation at that time? (Reading) : "My remaining any longer 
a member of a Council which is not consulted places me in the 
invidious position of seeming to approve of a policy with regard 
to the government of Ireland with which I have no sympathy." A. 
Yes, I remember the letter, which was published. 

Q. And about the same time Sir H. Grattan Bellew also resigned 
his Deputy Lieutenancy and Commission of the Peace, on August 
11th? A. Yes, I remember that. 

Q. And a large number of magistrates have resigned? A. 
Ninety-five per cent., I should say. 

REPRESSION, RAIDS AND ARRESTS IN MALLOW 
PRIOR TO BURNING 

Q. Now, from 1916 to the burning of Mallow, what had been the 
general conditions in the town? Had there been altercations be- 
tween the police and the civilians? A. Well, there was only one 
that I remember, in the year 1917. We were having a celebration 
of the anniversary of 1916. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Of the uprising in 1916, you mean? A. 
Yes. And we paraded the town, and a number of townspeople and 
the people from the surrounding districts had a sort of mournful 
parade. 

Q. This was in Easter Week, was it? A. Yes, Easter Week of 
1917. And the local police force broke up that procession, with 



906 

the result that a few men of the town got broken heads from the 
policemen's sticks. 

Q. Were any of the policemen shot on that occasion? A. No. 

Q. Had raids been taking place pretty generally in Mallow from 
1916? A. Well, not generally; but Mallow had its own share of 
the raids after 1916. You see, there were raids taking place all 
over Ireland in 1916. And we had comparative quiet in 1917. But 
in 1918 and 1919 we have had raids in Mallow almost continuously. 

Q. Any policemen shot in Mallow while these raids were taking 
place? A. No, no. 

Q. Were there any of the Republicans arrested? A. Yes, there 
were a number of Republicans arrested. 

Q. About how many? A. Well, from Mallow I should say 
there would be about ten or a dozen. 

Q. About ten out of this town of forty-five hundred? A. Yes. 

REPUBLICAN ARMY RAIDS MALLOW BARRACKS 

Q. What were the circumstances preceding the burning of Mal- 
low? A. Well, on September 27th last, about ten o'clock 

Q. Senator Norris: This was 1920? A. Yes, 1920. The mili- 
tary barracks are situated at the end of a street called Emmet Street. 
It is at the western end of the town, and it is surrounded at one side 
by a number of small houses, and to the other there is a public park 
at the back of the barrack. On this particular morning, about ten 
o'clock, a number of men attacked the barracks, — the military bar- 
racks. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Who were the attackers, — Irish Volunteers? A. 
They were Republicans. 

Q. Members of the Irish Republican Army? A. Yes. 

Q. Were they citizens of Mallow? A. No, they were men from 
the country. 

Q. But to your personal knowledge, they were not residents of 
the town of Mallow? A. To my personal knowledge, no. There 
may have been one or two Mallow men in the actual raid. But to 
my knowledge in the actual raid on the barracks there was no person 
from Mallow, with the possible exception of one or two. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Were they in uniform? A. No, the Re- 
publican forces haven't any uniform. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What is the penalty for having a uniform? A. 
Well, if you have a uniform, you get anything from two years to 
five. 

Q. Chairman Wood: This was not always the case, was it? A. 
Oh, no. 

Q. From what date was the uniform proscribed? They used to 
parade in uniform, did they not? A. Yes, up to 1916. 



907 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Did you witness this raid on the bar- 
racks? A. No, I did not see it. 

Q. But you were in the town at the time? A. Yes. 

Q. About how many participated in the raid? A. About 30. 

Q. Just how was this raid carried on? A. Well, they got into 
the barrack yard on a subterfuge, and they opened the barrack doors 
and held up the barrack. 

Q. Mr. Manly: How was this raid carried out? A. Well, 
about 25 of them held up the barracks, and about 5 more kept a 
lookout and waited for them in automobiles. They did this while a 
number of the men were out with their horses exercising them out- 
side of the town. So the raiding party surprised them and held 
them up and compelled them to hold up their hands, with the excep- 
tion of five or six, — they were not in the barrack square at the time. 
These five or six ran out with rifles and revolvers and began firing, 
with the result that in the melee the sergeant-major, who wasn't in 
the barracks and who was out with the other men, he was shot, 
unfortunately. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was he shot dead? A. No, he lived for about 
three or four hours. 

PURPOSE OF ATTACK TO GET ARMS 

Q. Commissioner Howe: The attacking forces had arms, did 
they? A. Well, they had rifles and revolvers. 

Q. Is this the way most of these attacks on barracks have been 
carried out, — they make their entrance quietly, and then they over- 
power the officers and make them hold up their hands, and they take 
away their arms? A. Well, I have no definite knowledge of other 
cases, but I believe it is. 

Q. And in cases of attacks on barracks, there are very few 
people killed? A. Very seldom anybody killed. 

Q. Why is that? A. Well, they carry out the thing so quickly 
that they have them overpowered before they have a chance to resist. 

Q. Senator Norris: Well, what did they do with these men they 
captured? A. Well, they took all the arms they had on them, and 
all the arms in the barrack, and they sent out for a doctor and a 
priest f<5r this man who was injured. 

Q. They did not take them prisoner, then, — just held them up 
and took their arms away from them? A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: In other words, the whole purpose 
of the raid is to get arms and munitions for the Republican forces? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Did they burn down the barrack? A. No. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was this sergeant-major firing on the attacking 
party? A. I could not say as to that, but I know the sergeant- 



908 

major did come out with a revolver in his hand, and he was shot 
down. 

Q. So it was just a case of who shot first? A. Yes. 

BARRACKS HEAVILY FORTIFIED 

Q. Commissioner Howe: I would like to get a picture of these 
barracks. A. Well, they have sand-bags and barbed wire around 
them. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Is it a stone bifilding? A. Yes, it is a large 
stone building, all boarded up. 

Q. Fortified? A. Yes, all the barracks in Ireland are heavily 
fortified. 

POLICE MAKE THREATS AGAINST TOWN 

Q. What were the results following the attack on this barrack? 
A. Well, when the Republican forces had got away, the doctor and 
the police came immediately to the barrack and took charge of the 
wounded man. And one of the men got a horse, and he galloped 
out at once for the rest, who had been out exercising their horses 
for the morning. And they galloped back to the town, and when 
they heard that their comrade had been shot, and their arms taken, 
they came riding up making threats to the town, with the result that 
the people of the town got very nervous. 

Q. Did they do any shooting in the heat of anger when they 
knew their comrade had been shot? A. No, they did not. 

Q. They did not shoot any in the town at that time? A. No, 
they did not. But everybody knew what was coming, from what 
had happened to other towns. So they took steps to board up their 
premises, and they took that zinc, as we call it in Ireland, — I don't 
know what you call it here. 

Q. Galvanized iron? Corrugated iron? 

COLONEL PLEDGES PROTECTION TO TOWN 

A. Yes. They took corrugated iron and boarded up their prem- 
ises, and a good deal of people left the town. But during the day, 
after it happened, the town got into a state of excitement; 'so much 
so that some of the men in the town went to the parish priest, who 
is an old man, the Canon Corbett. And he called on the Protestant 
rector of the town, who is a Canon Harmon. And they also called 
into consultation the Presbyterian minister in the town, a Reverend 
Mr. Baker, I believe. And the three of them went to the officer in 
command of the troops. Mallow is incorporated with the military 
district of Buttevant. Buttevant is about seven miles north of 
Mallow. The senior officer at Buttevant is in charge of the district 



909 

that Mallow is in. He and some officers came to Mallow by motor 
immediately to see what had happened. The three ministers of the 
town waited on this colonel, and they asked for protection of the 
town from any reprisals. The officer in charge of the troops gave a 
guarantee that no reprisals would take place. 

Q. Major Newman: Do you know that officer's name? A. No, 
I don't know his name. 

Q. But he was in command of that district? A. He was the 
colonel in charge of the troops in the district on the 27th of Septem- 
ber last. He gave a guarantee to the Roman Catholic priest, to the 
Protestant rector, Canon Harmon, and to the Presbyterian minister, 
Reverend Mr. Baker, that no reprisals would take place. But he 
asked the clergymen to see that the people were off the streets by 
nine o'clock. The Canon, — Canon Corbett, who is my parish priest, 
— called me into consultation. I came from work about six o'clock 
that night, — I went to work about eleven and I came back about six. 
We patrolled the town together, and we got the people off the streets, 
and told them to confine themselves in their houses. I forgot to 
mention that the clergymen in consultation had also wired General 
MacReady, who was the commander of the forces in Ireland at the 
time, and who, I believe, is commander still. 

Q. Mr. Manly: He is in Dublin, I believe. A. Yes. They wired 
him for protection to the town, but I understand they got no answer 
to their message. 

THE SECRET AEROPLANE COMMUNICATION 

Q. What else happened during the day that seemed to have con- 
nection with this matter? A. About four o'clock in the afternoon 
an aeroplane came from Fermoy. Fermoy is the second largest 
military station in Ireland. It is a town about sixteen miles east of 
Mallow. 

Q. About the same distance from Mallow that Buttevant is? A. 
No, Buttevant is only seven miles. The other town is sixteen miles 
east. About four o'clock in the evening an aeroplane came from 
Fermoy to Mallow and dropped a communication into the barrack 
yard. After that it flew to Buttevant and dropped a communication 
there also, and then flew back to Fermoy. That is a thing that very 
seldom happens. We concluded in the town that it was some sort 
of agreement between the different forces. 

Q. The military officer in command at Fermoy would be the 
superior of the officer at Buttevant? A. Oh, yes, he is, undoubt- 
edly. The military officer in command at Fermoy would be a gen- 
eral. The military officer in command at Buttevant is only a colonel, 
a senior colonel. 

Q. Then the officer at Fermoy would be in command of the 



910 

officer in Buttevant? A. Yes. Of course I cannot say what the 
communication was. The aeroplane simply came from Fermoy and 
dropped the communication at Mallow, and then dropped another 
one at Buttevant, and then flew back to Fermoy. But the coinci- 
dence is that about half-past ten a lorry of troops arrived in Mallow 
from Buttevant, and about five minutes after two motor lorries 
arrived with troops from Fermoy. Well, Fermoy is about sixteen 
miles east of Mallow, and Buttevant about seven miles north. And 
my reasoning is that they must have had some understanding to 
come so near together from those distances. At about the same time 
the troops in Mallow came out; not all of them came out, because 
the troops there had had some communication with the people, and 
their relationships, while I would not say were friendly, they were 
not enemies, either. About ten or twelve, — I should say a dozen of 
the fifty troops there came out. 

LOOTING FOR LIQUOR BEGINS NIGHT OF TERROR 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: You said awhile ago that two lorries 
of troops came from Fermoy and one from Buttevant. How many 
in these lorries? A. Well, I could not say exactly. About 25, I 
should say. The first thing they did was to fire revolver and rifle 
shots and scream and fire around the town. The first thing after 
that they did was to raid some of the public houses and loot them 
and get drink. And then they marched to the town hall, the seat of 
the town council. 

TOWN HALL BURNED FIRST 

Q. Mr. Manly: Will you describe the town hall? A. It was a 
very fine old building. The ground floor was let to a club, which 
was called the Social Club, and it paid a rent of about thirty pounds 
a year, I understand, to the council, for the use of the ground floor. 
This rent went to the reduction of the rates. The top floor was 
occupied by a caretaker. The middle floor was occupied by the 
council and the council offices. But about half of the middle floor 
was occupied by the county secretary, who would be a member of 
the county council, and who paid rent to the urban council. Well, 
this hall was attacked first. They attacked it by breaking in the 
main entrance. In the back of the hall, I should mention, there was 
a large public hall for entertainment. 

Q. Mr. Manly: The town hall was a social center at which all 
the social activities of the town were carried on? A. Yes, dances 
were held there, and pictures, and dramatic companies held a show 
there. It was the only hall in the town that anything could be held 
in. It was a very large hall. It would hold about one thousand 



911 

people; a very large hall for the town of Mallow. It was a very 
big hall back of the town hall. 

Q. Chairman Wood: This town hall was built of stone, was it? 
A. Yes, it was. 

Q. And about how old a building? A. About 150 years old, 
I should say, — a fine building built in a very substantial manner, 
and a distinct ornament to the town. The stairways of the hall and 
the doors and the ceilings, of course, were all timber. They were 
sprinkled all over with petrol, and some incendiary bombs thrown 
into it, and it was all set afire. 

MILITARY SHOOT AT VOLUNTEER FIREMAN 

Q. Any effort made to put out the fire? A. Some of us came 
down to try to put out the fire and get out the fire brigade, and they 
fired at us. I do not say they fired at us to kill us, but at least to 
frighten us out. 

Q. Major Newman: Did you have a fire department in Mallow? 
A. No, not in our town. The firemen were ill volunteers. 

Q. And they were not permitted to pul it out? A. No, they 
fired at us. 

TEN PRIVATE HOUSES BURNED 

And then after the town hall was afire, they set fire to ten private 
houses. One of the houses they attacked was kept by a man named 
Forde. They broke into his house first. And he had a clerk by the 
name of Corbett. And this young chap the military believed or had 
heard that he had made himself very prominent in Volunteer circles. 
They went up through the rooms before burning the house, and they 
drove their bayonets through all the beds in the house. Of course, 
the occupants of the house had gone out of it. The owner of the 
house, Mr. Forde, gave me a little tobacco box, which the morning 
before had been given to his child by a commercial traveller to play 
with. The child was playing in the bed with the box the night 
before. But the mother of the child and the child itself and the 
owner of the house and all his clerks had left the house. But the 
little box was in the bed the child was in. And after the fire that 
box was got; and the mark shows that the bayonet which went 
through this little child's bed went right through the tobacco box. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Have you that box? A. I have it, and will 
bring it to the Commission this afternoon. 

Q. Have you there the picture of the family and the statement 
of the father? A. Yes, I have. 

Senator Norris: Suppose he goes on and gives the details of the 
fire. 



912 

Q. Mr. Manly: Well, this is the statement that deals with this 
particular instance. We can come back to it later. Just go ahead 
and tell about the fire, Mr. Dempsey, and we will come back to 
this again. 

"LIKE DEMONS IN THE TOWN" 

A. Well, they carried on and burned nine other houses in the 
same way in the town. And they frightened everybody out of their 
wits in the town. They carried on like demons in the town. Those 
of us who remained in the town did not think that human nature 
could descend to the depths that they did that night, — their wild 
yells and cries and the shooting and burning. 

Q. Were these soldiers or Black-and-Tans? A. They were 
soldiers. 

Q. Can you identify the regiment they belonged to? A. They 
belonged to the Seventeenth Lancers from Buttevant; we could not 
identify the men who came from Fermoy, because they had over- 
coats on. The only way we could identify those from Buttevant was 
that they have a distinct uniform, and they are the only cavalry 
regiment around Mallow. 

Q. Chairman Wood: These were a cavalry regiment, then? A. 
Yes, a cavalry regiment. 

Q. Did they have any officer with them? A. I could not say. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was there anybody in charge? A. Yes, there 
was somebody in charge, but I could not say whom. 

Q. Senator Norris: What did they do in the town then? A. 
Well, they shot through practically every window in the town or 
broke it with their trench tools. They broke all the glass in the 
main street of the town. They broke in the shutters of the houses 
and destroyed them. In fact, it was the houses that were boarded 
up that they attacked first. 

Q. And all those that were burned had been protected? A. Yes, 
with one exception. 

ARSON CONVERTS UNIONIST TO REPUBLICANISM 

Q. Could you tell us whether the houses that were burned were 
selected or taken indiscriminately? A. Well, I think they were 
taken indiscriminately, because one of the houses burned was the 
house of a Protestant and a Unionist. 

Q. What was his name? A. Quaile. He is a Protestant and 
a Unionist, and a large business man. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Did it convert him to Republicanism? A. 
Yes. I have a statement of it from him that I can read here. 

Chairman Wood: We would like to hear about it. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Did they burn your house? A. 



913 

Well, I heard them calling from the street to know where the house 
of the Sinn Fein chairman of the council was. But fortunately they 
did not find out, although I was about thirty yards away from them 
at the time. 

Q. You did not give them your address? 

CONDENSED MILK FACTORY WANTONLY BURNED 

A. No. And when they got through with the town, they pro- 
ceeded to burn the condensed milk factory, which was about a quar- 
ter of a mile away. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Why did not the R. I. C, who had lived 
in the town with you and knew where you lived and the rest of the 
people lived, tip them off? A. Well, I will come to that later. 
The condensed milk factory is about a quarter of a mile outside of 
the town. This condensed milk factory is the second largest in the 
country, and it employed five to six hundred people. 

Q. Residents of Mallow, were they? A. All residents of Mal- 
low. And I need not tell you gentlemen that in a town of the size 
of Mallow, any factory that employs five or six hundred people is 
the principal source of employment and the principal source of 
revenue in that town. The people actually lived on it. The men 
who worked there were heads of families, and all the wages from 
that factory were spent in that town. And so it was a great loss to 
the town. 

When the soldiers proceeded to that factory, I and some of the 
other men of the town went through the town and called up any of 
the citizens who remained in the town, and called out the fire 
brigade, and tried as best we could to put out the fires. 

Q. Chairman Wood: There were ten fires burning at once? A. 
Ten fires, yes, sir. 

Q. Major Newman: That was when the soldiers had gone to the 
factory? A. They had gone to the factory by then, but they had 
not left the town. When some of the people saw us trying to put 
out the fire, they came out of their houses and tried to help us. We 
organized fire brigades and bucket brigades, and we broke connec- 
tion between those houses that were burning and others that were 
not burning. And we were very fortunate, because none of the 
houses besides those that were burning were lost. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did they interfere with you in any way in put- 
ting out the fire? A. When they came back from the factory the 
men from Buttevant and Fermoy went back in their lorries, but the 
men from the town came on back very drunk, yelling and firing, 
and one of the men who was working to put out the fire was injured. 
Of course, there were so many shots fired that somebody was bound 
to get hit. I don't think they fired to kill us, but to frighten us 
away. 



914 

Q. Did they succeed? A. Well, some of the people went away, 
but not many of them. 

Q. Were there any threats made? A. Yes. I myself happened 
to be holding a hose between Mr. Thompson's garage and another 
house. There was a house burning between, and we were trying to 
save the house that intervened. Myself and a chap named Baker in 
the town had hold of the nozzle of the hose, and were trying to put 
out the fire. One of these soldiers came over to us, — he was very 
drunk, — and he put a bayonet up to my chest and said he would 
drive it through me. But another soldier came up and pulled him 
away. I was very excited, and did not feel the danger I was in, and 
I told him to get on away, and turned the nozzle towards him. The 
other soldier said, "Leave him alone. He is only trying to put out 
the fire." He said, "But he would get me if he could." But they 
went away. 

OFFICER TAKES DRUNKEN SOLDIERS TO 
BARRACKS 

I forgot to say that the officer in charge of the Lancers came from 
the barracks after they went away, and told me he would give me 
all the assistance that he could. In fact, he did send for the military 
hose and the military screws, but owing to the difference between 
our screws and their screws, they did not fit. And he also gave me 
the guarantee that the military under his control would not hinder 
us in putting out the fires. After this threatening by this soldier, 
I called the attention of the officer to it, and told him, "I thought 
you said your men would not interfere with us. Some of our men 
have had narrow escapes from firing, and one of your men has 
threatened to drive his bayonet through me." He seemed to be very 
excited, but he practically said he had lost control over his men. 
"Damn it," he said, "they are all drunk." And I said, "Well, can 
you take your men out of here? We don't need any protection. 
We can take care of it ourselves." And so he did take his men 
away. He called them to form up and march to the barracks. And 
although it was a tragic affair, I had to laugh at the way they would 
form up. They were all very drunk, and they fell all over one 
another in their effort to line up. And on the way to the barracks 
they fired their revolvers in the air. 

Q. Had this officer interfered while the attack on the town was 
taking place? A. No. I did not see him out, and nobody in 
Mallow saw him out until the factory was being attacked, when he 
came out to bring back his own men. But he did not interfere in 
any way with the troops from the other towns. 

Q. Major Newman: Were these troops from the other towns also 
drunk? A. Well, some of them were, and some of them were 
absolutely sober. 






915 

FACTORY DESTROYED WITH GASOLINE AND 

BOMBS 

Q. Senator Norris: What happened at the factory? A. Well, 
the factory was burned to the ground, so much so that about 400 
people of the town were thrown out of employment at once. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Do you know whether petrol was used in setting 
fire to the factory? A. Oh, yes. They used — what do you call 
them — pumps? 

Q. Sprays? A. Yes, sprays. And they sprayed petrol on the 
factory and set fire to it. I forgot to mention that in the factory 
there were a couple of watchmen, and when they saw them coining 
(they uttered shouts and yells about Sinn Fein and Ireland, and 
were firing rifles and Mills bombs, and shooting into the air), well, 
of course, these two men did not stay in the factory. They skipped. 
But they stayed close enough to see what was taking place in the 
factory. A large amount of the factory is glass; and through the 
glass they saw them, under the electric lights, going through the 
factory spraying this petrol around. 

Q. How did they set the factory afire, — did they use incendiary 
bombs? A. Oh, they used incendiary bombs on practically every 
house in town. They used incendiary bombs in the factory, too. 
They were very powerful, because they blew some of the machinery 
out. 

INSURANCE COMPANIES REFUSE TO PAY 
FOR LOSSES 

Q. Has any attempt been made to repair the factory? A. None. 

Q. Has any compensation been paid for the loss of the factory? 
A. None. All the insurance companies say their policies do not 
cover such losses. The policies were ordinary insurance policies. 
The companies contended they did not include riot. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Has that been taken into the courts yet, do 
you know? A. Well, I heard it was to be taken into the courts, 
but up to the present I know that none of the towns that have been 
burned have got any insurance. 

ONLY OBJECT IN BURNING FACTORY TO DEPRIVE 
PEOPLE OF EMPLOYMENT 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Was the owner of this condensing 
factory a Republican? A. No. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was he identified in any way with politics, as 
far as you know? A. As far as I know he had the name of being 
a Unionist, but I do not know. He was a Protestant and a large 
employer of labor. And I might say that from the workers 1 point 



916 

of view and from the trade unions' point of view he is one of ihe 
most respected men in Ireland. He is the sort of man we want to 
live in Ireland. He lives in Ireland and gives work in Ireland and 
spends all his money in Ireland. He gives more employment in the 
south and west of Ireland than anybody else I know. 

Q. Major Newman: He owns other factories in Ireland? A. 
Yes, all over the south and west of Ireland. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: He is on good terms with labor? A. 
Yes. There have been only very small disturbances in his factories. 
He was one of the first men to set up arbitration courts. The firm 
is the Cleeves Brothers. Practically all of their employees are very 
satisfied with their conditions. 

Q. Senator Norris: Then the only object the soldiers could have 
in destroying that factory was to throw people out of employment? 
A. Yes, that was it. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Do you know whether the owner of that factory 
has been knighted? A. Yes, one of the members of the firm is 
knighted, — Sir Thomas Cleeves. 

COLONEL'S PLEDGE TO PROTECT TOWN OVER- 
RULED BY SUPERIOR AUTHORITIES 

Q. What happened to the women and children while this was 
taking place? A. Well, some of them had left the town during the 
day. The shop-keeping class had left town and had gone to the 
country to friends of theirs. But the majority of the workers' wives 
and the workers' children stopped in the town. In fact, the Canon 
of the parish and the Protestant clergymen of the ^parish, — the 
Protestant rector and the Presbyterian minister and the prominent 
men in the town, — believed what the colonel had told them, that no 
reprisals would take place. And so we did our best to keep the 
people in the town. We believed that the officers would keep their 
promise; as gentlemen themselves we believed they would do it. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Did the clergymen interview this 
colonel after this event? A. They were in the inquiry that took 
place afterwards. Nobody would be let into that inquiry except the 
clergy and the people who actually had their houses burned, and 
one military officer who happened to be stopping in one of the local 
hotels. Any ordinary people could not get in. I myself, although 
I was chairman of the council and had been out all that night, and 
knew exactly what took place, I was not allowed in. 

Q. Chairman Wood: This was a military hearing? A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Do you know whether the clergymen 
asked the military commander about what took place that night? 
A. Well, Canon Corbett, who is my parish priest, told me he did 
ask him, and he told him that it took place without his consent. 



917 

Q. Senator Norris: I suppose this order came from superior 
officers, and thev had nothing to do but obey? A. Well, I could 
not say of my own knowledge, but that is the presumption. 

Q. Mr. Manly: But three military lorry loads of soldiers, with 
petrol and sprays and bombs, could not come without orders from 
above, could they, and arrive at the same time from sixteen and 
seven miles distant? A. No. 

MILITARY INQUIRY MAKES PUBLIC NO REPORT 

Q. Senator Norris: What report did this inquiry make? A. 
None. It was a military inquiry. 

Q. What report came from the authorities in England on this 
occasion? A. None whatever. 

Q. What explanation did they make for the burning of this 
creamery? A. None. 

Q. Chairman Wood: This is not a creamery in the ordinary 
sense, — it is a condensed milk factory? A. Yes. 

TWO WOMEN DIE, OTHERS HYSTERICAL, FROM 
SHOCK OF TERROR AND EXPOSURE 

Q. Mr. Manly: Where did the people go whose houses had been 
burned? A. Well, their friends in the town took them in. Those 
who were in the town when the military came into the town and 
started roaring and started firing and started throwing bombs,— you 
can understand the condition of the women and children in the 
town. They ran out of their houses in panic. They ran to the 
churches. They ran to the convent. Some of them, indeed, ran to 
the police barracks. And the R. I. C. men in the barracks actually 
did take in some of these women and children for shelter that night. 
Some of them in the immediate neighborhood of the fires ran into 
the cemeteries that are behind their houses. 

Q. Did some of them spend the night in the graveyard? A. 
Yes. There is a graveyard immediately behind the Roman Catholic 
Church and behind the Protestant Church, and quite a number of 
women and children spent the night sitting on the grave stones — on 
the tombstones. 

Q. Were there any injuries resulting from this exposure? A. 
Well, one woman, Mrs. Connolly, who had a baby about three days 
previous to this, — she had to get up out of bed with her baby, of 
course. She got up, with nervousness and shock, and took her baby 
and remained out in the graveyard with her baby all night, with the 
result that she got pneumonia and died two or three days after this. 
The baby is alive yet. Another old woman who went to the grave- 
yard — 



918 

Q. What was her name? A. Mrs. Quirk. She got sick and lost 
her head, and died about a month afterwards. Another lady, one 
I know, had a baby about five days old. She went away from her 
own house, and went to a neighbor in another part of town where 
the fires were not burning; and providentially nothing happened 
to her, although she suffered from nervous shock for a long time 
afterwards. 

Q. Did many of the people suffer from nervous shock after this? 
A. Oh, the women, — practically all the women. The next day most 
of the women in town were in hysterics and crying, all the next 
day. The state of the children was something fearful from this 
night of terror. 

LOCAL COMMITTEE SEEKS TO RELIEVE SUFFER- 
ING FROM DESTITUTION CAUSED BY FIRE 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: What conditions prevail in the town 
now? What do the people do with their surplus milk? What are 
the conditions of employment? A. Well, the conditions in the 
town are: there were, besides the men, a number of girls employed 
in this factory. There were about 200 men employed there. All 
the girls were let out at once, and about fifty men have been kept on 
to square up the debris and straighten out everything that would 
be of some use. A lot of these have been thrown out of employment 
since, because Mr. Cleeves could not start rebuilding unless he got 
some assurance from the insurance companies that he would get 
some compensation in case the place were burned. Because if a 
place is burned out once, it is very liable, if it is rebuilt, to be 
burned again. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Has there been any suffering in Mallow? 
A. Yes; we did the best we could. We took up a collection to 
relieve the suffering in the town. It was about twelve hundred 
pounds when I went away. I happened to be on the committee 
through my position as chairman of the council. Some of the men, 
and women too, came under the insurance act. The men would get 
fifteen shillings a week and the women would get eleven shillings 
a week. 

Q. That is war insurance? A. No, unemployment insurance. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: That is being paid now? A. It will 
be paid for three months afterwards. 

Q. By the British Government? A. Yes. 

Q. Major Newman: They have an insurance policy? A. Yes, 
it is the insurance act of Lloyd George, where the employer pays a 
certain amount and the employee pays a certain amount, and the 
government pays a certain amount. 

Q. Senator Norris: Then they are only getting what they have 



919 

paid for? A. Yes, they have paid for it. Well, we took up a 
collection of twelve hundred pounds, and we had a committee of 
twelve, of whom four were picked out as distributors, who dis- 
tributed to the neediest families the amounts the committee could 
afford to give every week. According to the size of the family of 
the man, we gave a certain amount. Those who had small families 
got a small amount, and those who had large families got larger 
amounts to supplement the insurance. There were four men of the 
committee picked out who know the town. Two of them were the 
Catholic curates, Father Roach and Father Kelley. And we divided 
the town into four different wards or districts, and each of us took 
a district and went around the town every Saturday, either in the 
morning or in the evening, and gave those people what we could. 
I can tell the Commission that when we started to distribute what 
we could every Saturday, practically all these houses, — at least 95 
per cent, of the houses that we went into in my portion of the 
town, they were nice, bright little homes; it would have done you 
good to go into them. Everyone seemed to take a pride in keeping 
their places as bright and nice as they could. Well, in six or eight 
weeks I have seen those homes destitute, and denuded of every bit 
of their furniture in order that they can give their children some- 
thing to eat. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Selling their furniture in order to live? A. 
Yes, selling their furniture in order to live; selling it below cost 
price. 

Q. Selling it when they could get no market for it? A. Yes. 
Our own trades union, the members are paying five shillings a week 
for the town; and the farmers and the district around there are 
giving what they can. But because of the factory being burned, the 
people cannot afford to give. Every shopkeeper in the town and 
every merchant has lost the fifteen or sixteen hundred pounds wages 
paid out by the factory every week. That money is stopped, and 
the merchants are suffering too. 

TERRORISM INTENSIFIES DETERMINATION FOR 

REPUBLIC 

Q. Commissioner Addams: How do these people feel towards 
the Volunteers who picked out the barracks of Mallow for raiding? 
Do they ever reproach them for taking their town for a raid on the 
barracks instead of some other barracks for a thing of that sort? 
A. Well, I will tell you. These people who have suffered, as well 
as other people whom I know, they do not love England, and never 
did; but since their homes have been destroyed and their places 
raided and their furniture has been broken and their place of em- 



920 

ployment has been burned up, that has intensified the hatred of 
England in their hearts more than anything else. 

Q. Yes, but how do they feel towards the Irish Volunteers, who 
started things? A. Well, the majority of the people are Repub- 
lican. And even though this reign of terror is going on in Ireland, 
the majority of the people are confirmed Republican, and they be- 
lieve and they say it that the people must suffer. No country ever 
got her liberty without a certain amount of suffering. And we as 
Republicans, — the majority of the people in Ireland, — 90 per cent, 
of the people in Ireland, I should say. will go on to the end, through 
any amount of suffering, until we get what you people here in 
America have got, — your liberty. 

Q. Chairman Wood: That does not quite answer Miss Addams' 
question. Is there no murmuring against the Volunteers for having 
picked on Mallow? 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Instead of Fermoy, for instance? A. 
Well, I could not justify myself here if I said there was no mur- 
muring against it. You will get isolated cases where people will 
say, "Well, it isn't worth it." It would be ridiculous for me to say 
that there is absolutely no murmuring. But I would say that the 
vast majority of those people who have suffered — 

Q. Senator Norris: Are willing to suffer more? A. They are 
willing to suffer more. They are willing to carry on. 

Q. Chairman Wood: They regard this as an incident of war, — 
that they are taken, and some other village will be taken next? A. 
Yes, yes. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: That the Republicans must have 
arms in some way? A. Yes, exactly. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Are there more Republicans now in Mallow than 
before this took place? A. Yes, because at the time of the elec'ion 
we had only twelve men on our ticket. Seven of them were Na- 
tionalists. But practically every person in town is Republican now. 
The reign of terror, instead of breaking the spirit of the people, 
has intensified it. 

RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION UNKNOWN IN 
MALLOW 

Q. Chairman Wood: And that regardless of religion? A. Abso- 
lutely regardless of religion. 

Q. Major Newman: Do the Protestant clergymen help you, Mr. 
Dempsey, in this relief work? A. Yes, indeed. We have got a 
large amount of money from Protestant people. 

Q. Do the Protestant people help you in looking after those 
who need relief? A. Yes, they do. But of course the Protestant 
population in Mallow is very small, and there are no poor Protes- 



921 

tants in Mallow, — none who need relief. So the Protestant ministers 
left the distribution to us. But they have contributed money and 
helped us. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Do the Protestants and Catholics meet 
together and trade together in Mallow? A. Yes, indeed. 

Q. Are there any discriminations at all? A. Oh, no. Some 
of our largest merchants in Mallow are Protestants. The man I 
was just telling you about, Mr. Quaile, the largest tailor in the 
town, is a Protestant. And the largest hardware store in Mallow is 
owned by a Mr. Burris, a Protestant. The Protestants are the largest 
business people in Mallow. This Mr. Burris, in fact, is the largest 
business man, and I should say undoubtedly the largest trader and 
richest man in Mallow. He has a lumber business there also. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: There is no religious trouble in Mal- 
low? A. None whatever. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Has there ever been any religious trouble in 
Mallow? A. None whatever. 

Q. Major Newman: Are these men Republicans now? A. Well, 
I would not say they were all Republicans, but I know that this 
Mr. Quaile is. 

Q. Who? A. This Mr. Quaile, whose place was burned out. 
He is a Republican now. But this Mr. Burris has never taken much 
part in politics. He is a business man pure and simple. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: If Ireland were a Republic, this Mr. 
Burris would not be offended? A. No, not at all. 

PEOPLE PAY FOR DAMAGE DONE BY TROOPS 

Q. Mr. Manly: What was the damage done in Mallow by these 
raids? A. Over two hundred ninety-six thousand pounds. (Read- 
ing from paper) : £296,273: 5: 0. Nearly £300,000. 

Q. Can you just take the largest claims in that and tell us about 
them? A. Well, the Condensed Milk Company of Ireland is 
£150,000. 

Q. Senator Norris: How have these claims been filed? A. They 

have been filed in the courts. 

Q. How do the people expect to get paid? A. From the 
British Government, of course. 

Q. Will the British Government pay these claims? A. I don't 
believe they will. They have not paid any of them yet. 

Q. Well, is there a law by which such claims can be filed? A. 
There is, but the country is under martial law at present, and it 
would not do much good. 

Q. Chairman Wood: But would not the damage be put on the 
rates any way? A. Yes, it would. 



922 

Q. So that your own community would have to pay for the 
damage done by the British troops? A. Yes, that is so, ordinarily. 

Q. Mr. Manly: That comes under the Malicious Injuries Act? 
A. Yes, any damage done, any malicious damage done in the 
town, has to be paid by the rates. 

Q. Senator Norris: Those people have to pay for the damage 
done by the British troops? A. Yes. 

Q. Chairman Wood: So that the Cleeves Brothers would have to 
pay for the loss of their own factory, since they are the largest tax- 
payers in the town? A. Yes, as the largest taxpayers in the town, 
they would. 

FARCICAL DISCIPLINE 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Have you any reason to believe that 
there was any discipline whatever for any act on that night of terror? 
A. I do not get your question, sir. 

Q. Have the British Government disciplined any of the soldiers 
who took part in the destruction of property on that night of terror 
in Mallow? A. Well, I believe that after the inquiry into it, they 
gave some slight sentence to the man who drove the lorries, and 
they gave some slight sentence to the man who brought out the lorries 
without the consent of the officer in charge. But they said they could 
not prove that these men were engaged in any of the damage done. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Where were these inquiries held? A. In 
Buttevant and Fermoy. And the only punishment given was that 
the men in charge of these lorries were given a few days' confine- 
ment to barracks for letting these lorries out without the permission 
of the officer in charge. 

Q. Do I understand that any government would give this excuse 
for acts committed on such a scale by armed bodies of its own 
soldiers? A. I understand that that was the answer given in the 
House of Commons to a question about this raid. 

Q. Major Newman: Was there any officer in charge of the 
troops? A. There seemed to be. 

Q. Chairman Wood: There was some man in direction of the 
operations? A. Yes, there was — a big, tall man in a long over- 
coat, who seemed to be in charge. He would say, "Come on, boys. 
We will take this one now." 

Q. Major Newman: Was he in an officer's uniform? A. Well, 
he had a long military overcoat over him. 

STATEMENT OF ROBERT N. QUAILE 

Q. Mr. Manly: Now, to come back to these statements in the two 
cases — those of Mr. Quaile and Mr. Forde. 

A. The Witness (Reading): "Late Bank Place, Mallow," Bank 



923 

Place is one of the main streets of Mallow. Bank Place and Main 
Street were the two streets raided. 

Q. Senator Norris: But I understood you to say that practically 
all the houses in town were raided. A. Well, practically the whole 
town is on one street — this long main street. And when the houses 
on that street were smashed, practically the whole town was wrecked. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Was your house destroyed? A. No, I am 
out on the west end of the town. The people up around my house 
are mainly Unionists, and my house did not happen to be destroyed. 

Q. There was some indication, then, that they were looking for 
Republicans? A. Well, they do not usually touch people who are 
in very respectable parts in Ireland; I mean to say people who live 
in large houses. Because the military believe that the people who 
live in large houses are mainly Unionists. That is not to say that 
they are right in that belief. But they do not touch large houses, 
fearing that they may burn out a Unionist. 

Q. And when they do burn out a Unionist, it is a mistake, is it? 
A. Yes. 

Chairman Wood: That is a poor joke. 

The Witness (reading) : "Late Bank Place, Mallow, 27th Decem- 
ber, 1920." 

Q. Late Bank Place? A. Yes, it was Bank Place, and it was 
destroyed. (Continues reading) : 

"In accordance with your request, I have pleasure in sending you 
herewith particulars of the damage suffered in my own case as a 
consequence of the reprisal raid made by the military on Mallow dur- 
ing the night of the 28th September last. 

"That the raid was made by the military is, I think, beyond all 
dispute, as I was within a few yards of the incendiaries when my 
neighbor's house was fired, and also my own. A plentiful supply of 
petrol was used in each case ; and immediately previous to being set 
on fire, revolver shots were fired through the windows of both houses. 
The men were dressed in khaki uniform and wore military caps. 

"My whole premises were utterly demolished, and absolutely noth- 
ing could be saved from the dwelling house, which was situated over 
the shop, owing to the firing carried on in the street, which prevented 
any egress in that direction. 

"Yours faithfully, 

(Signed) "Robert N. Quaile." 

The Witness: Then he follows by giving particulars: 

"Estimated cost of rebuilding house £3,500. 

"Stock, fixtures, and shop fittings 2,485. 

"Furniture and personal property 1,665. 

"Consequential damage, including loss of business, and erec- 
tion of temporary premises 500. 



£8,150. 



Q. Mr. Manly: This is all pounds? A. Yes, pounds sterling 
That is Mr. Quaile's. He was a Unionist and a Protestant, one of 



924 

the Protestant traders of Mallow. The Condensed Milk Company 
of Ireland looked for £150,000 of damages; Mr. Cornelius Forde, 
£10,000; Mrs. Ring, £2,000. 

STORES LOOTED 

Q. What was Mrs. Ring's? Was that a residence? A. Ahout 
Mrs. Ring now. Her house was attacked. It was one of the last 
houses that was attacked before the factory was burned. As the 
soldiers went to the factory I and a few more young men from the 
back part of the town, we came to that house first, and we saved it 
before it was all burned. We saved quite a lot of stuff. Some stuff 
was looted by the military, by the way. 

Q. Senator Norris: What kind of a store was it? A. A dry 
goods store. They looted it and took away some tweed and other 
stuff. While I am telling you about that, I must tell you about the 
jeweler's store. We have only one jeweler in Mallow. His store 
was also looted, but not burned. His windows and his doors were 
broken open by the butt ends of rifles. I have his statement here. 
About £700 of stuff taken. He was fortunate in that he took away 
most of his stock during the day; but there was about £700 of stuff 
taken as it was. 

STATEMENT OF JOHN GEORGE WEEDLE 

Q. Mr. Manly: Will you read his statement, please? A. The 
Witness I Reading) : 

"143 Bank Place, Mallow. 

"On the night of the 27th September, 1920, my shop was entered by 
armed soldiers about 11:30 P. M. who, forcing the shutters with iron 
bars, smashed the plate-glass windows, shelves, mirrors, etc., and stock. 
Shortly after 12 another soldier entered and smashed the counter glass 
cases, and striking matches, put his hand into the case and took some 
goods. The shop was again entered about an hour later, also by mili- 
tary, and the remaining glass wall cases were smashed and goods 
damaged. This time they used a flash lamp, and going around the 
shop, took some more goods. 

"The total loss amounts to £700, which includes £192 for goods 
missing. In clearing up the broken glass in window, I found a button 
belonging to the Lancer Regiment. 

(Signed) "John George Weedle." 

The Witness: That is for goods actually missing. Of course, they 
broke all his shop fittings and the glass inside. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Does this jeweler, do you know, show up 
in the community as opposed to the British Government? Why 
should they come three times to his store? A. No, he doesn't take 
any prominent part in politics. They simply wanted to loot his 
shop. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Is this same regiment still in Mallow? 



925 

A. No. This regiment was taken out of Mallow soon afterwards. 
I understand that they were sent to India. 

Commissioner Thomas: There have been troubles in India 
recently. Perhaps their arrival there may account for it. 

TOWN SAVED FROM DESTRUCTION BY FIRE 
BRIGADE 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were these houses destroyed all in one row, or 
were they in different parts of the town? A. No, they were in dif- 
ferent parts of the town. 

Q. So that under ordinary circumstances the fire would have 
spread and destroyed the whole town? A. Yes, it would. If we 
had not gone out and put out the fire, the town would have been 
wiped out. In fact, we rather took pride in what we had done. 

Chairman Wood: I well think you might be proud of it. 

The Witness: You see, ours is only a volunteer brigade, and we 
took pride in the fact that we had done as well as we did. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Have you another statement there from Mr. 
Forde? 

Mr. Manly: We can let that go until after lunch, if you wish, and 
then he can bring that match box through which the bayonet was 
thrust. 

Chairman Wood: Very well. 

HELPED BY LOCAL POLICE AND BLACK-AND-TANS 

Q. Commissioner Howe: I wanted to ask Mr. Dempsey why the 
R. I. C. and the other troops who lived in the town did not give you 
away. A. Well, I forgot to tell you — I was just going to mention 
it a short time ago, that the R. I. C. and the four Black-and-Tans 
who were stationed in the barracks in Mallow did their best to help 
us put out the fire. It was the military pure and simple. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Four Black-and-Tans? A. Yes. 
They were ex-soldiers who had served in the army all during the 
war, or in the navy. They were among the best of the Black-and- 
Tans. 

Q. Then the Black-and-Tans are not all alike? A. Not at all. 
They were better than most of them. 

Q. Senator Norris: Then some of them are very decent fellows? 
A. Yes, they are. 

UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE AND RELIEF 
INADEQUATE FOR FAMILY NEEDS 

Major Newman: Mr. Dempsey, I want to ask you about this in- 
surance for the people who are out of employment. A. Well, the 



926 
men are receiving 15 shillings a week, and the women are receiving 
11 shillings. I don't know what that would be at the rate of ex- 
change. 

Mr. Manly: Around $2.75 to $3 a week. 

Q. That applies only to those who have policies? A. It would 
not include everybody in the factory, but it would include a good 
deal. 

Q. It applied only to those who had paid on their policies? A. 
Yes, only to those. 

Q. What I want to know is to what extent that exists in other 
parts of Ireland. A. It applies pretty generally in the factory 
towns, I should say. 

Q. Senator Norris: How long does this last? A. Only for 
three months. 

Q. Chairman Wood: If it only lasts for three months, it is over 
now. And how is it supported now? A. By volunteer contribu- 
tions from the workers. The workers put a tax upon themselves. 

Q. Well, the eighteen hundred pounds that you said you raised, 
is that exhausted? A. Well, it was not exhausted at the time I 
went away. We had a couple of hundred of pounds left. And some 
money is coming on all the time. But unless we get outside help, it 
cannot last. 

Q. But the description you gave of the denuded premises show 
that the people are trying to help themselves, and are making every 
effort to supply their own needs. A. Yes, they are. I need not 
tell you that the cost of living in Ireland is very high. These people, 
some of them, are getting 15 shillings a week on their unemploy- 
ment policies, and some of them are getting 10 shillings a week from 
us. That would be 25 shillings. To get 10 shillings from us they 
would have to have 4 children or over. And 25 shillings will not 
provide enough for a family of that size to live on. 

FOOD AVAILABLE FOR THOSE WITH MONEY 

Q. Chairman Wood: Is there food there for them to buy if they 
do have the money? A. Well, of course, in some places in Ireland 
much food has been destroyed; but we are lucky around Mallow. 
The food is there if they can buy it. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Can you give us an idea of the prices? 
A. Well, tea is 4 shillings a pound; sugar, ten pence a pound; and 
the price of meat would be about two-and-six-pence a pound. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What kind of meat would that be? A. Ordi- 
nary meat — beef steaks and the like. 



927 

FARMERS MUST SELL CATTLE OR SHIP MILK 

Q. What is the condition of the farmers around in that district 
who supplied milk to the condensery? A. Well, quite a lot of 
the farmers in the district have had to sell their cattle off, but there 
are a number of them who are taking their milk to the small cream- 
eries in the neighborhood. And Cleeves has sent a lorry around to 
get milk for a small creamery at Kanturk, which is a small town 
about 12 miles from Mallow. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Is there enough milk produced near the 
town to supply the people there? A. Well, in the town there are 
dairy farms, and these people have always supplied the milk for 
the town. They have always supplied it, and do so now. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Do the people buy their bread, or do 
they bake it themselves? A. They bake it themselves. 

Q. Do they bake it in stoves or ovens? A. They have little 
ovens, and they bake it in that. 

Chairman Wood: The Commission will adjourn until after lunch. 
(12:25 p. m.) 

2:10 P. M. 

Chairman Wood: The Commission will convene again, please, and 
Mr. Dempsey is going to continue to tell us some more about the 
situation in Mallow. 

STATEMENT OF CORNELIUS FORDE 

Mr. Basil M. Manly: Shall we take up first the individual case of 
Mr. Forde and the box? 

Chairman Wood: Oh, yes. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Will you relate the incident, Mr. Dempsey? A. 
Mr. Forde had a very large dry goods store in the town of Mallow, 
and his place was the second place in Mallow that was attacked. 
The town hall was the first place. 

Q. What was Mr. Forde's politics? A. Well, Mr. Forde did 
not interfere much in politics. He is what is called a sympathetic 
Sinn Feiner. 

Q. Was he a member of any active political organization? A. 
No, he was not. 

Q. Senator Norris: He was rather passive and peaceful? A. I 
beg your pardon. 

Q. He rather leaned toward peace? A. Well, he was a Repub- 
lican in this sense: he favored the Republic, but I have never known 
him to be an active member of or connected with any Republican 
organization. He was a business man pure and simple. If you 
like, I can give you his statement. 

Chairman Wood: If you please. 

The Witness (Reading) : 



928 

"My house was broken into by armed forces in uniform on Septem- 
ber 27th at 11 :15 P. M. The door was broken in by the butts of rifles, 
and all the beds in the house, including the children's, were bayonetted. 
This was seen from the two adjoining houses. And we give you the 
further accompanying proof in the little tin tobacco box, which is 
perforated with a bayonet thrust. This box was given in bed to the 
child Sheila, aged 11 months, to play with while her mother dressed 
to leave the town ; and we afterwards found the box in the debris. 
You will note where the clasp of the bayonet also left a dent in the 
box, establishing beyond question that it is a bayonet thrust. 

"Established in business only six years, and having no other means 
of a livelihood, I am thrown absolutely penniless with my wife and 
two children. All we possessed was in our warehouse in goods. 

"After searching my house, tins of gasoline were poured on the 
goods, and the place was set oir fire. Local assistance got the fire 
under control, and when it looked as if the top" part of the premises 
would be saved, the local fire brigade were fired on, with the result 
that the fire caught hold again, and everything myself and family had 
was lost, — absolutely nothing saved. (The Witness: That was the first 
time that we were fired upon, and had to clear out.) 

"I hereby declare I was never connected with any political society 
and was not connected in any way with Sinn Fein or other societies. 
I do not know why I should be burned. There was nothing against 
me whatever. 

(Signed) "Cornelius Forde, 
"65 Main Street, Mallow, Ireland. 

"December 28, 1920." 

The Witness: He employed 16 hands, and these are all now out of 
work except five, who got work in other places. This is a photo- 
graph of his wife and two children, and it says, *'Thomas Forde, 
aged three and a half years, and Sheila Forde, aged eleven months." 
Sheila Forde was the little girl in whose bed the tobacco box was 
put for her to play with when her mother was dressing to leave town 
on the day of the raid. 

Q. Mr. Manly (indicating box): That was the box that was 
given you by Mr. Forde? A. Yes. Just pass it around. (The 
exhibit is inspected by the Commission). 

BEDS BAYONETED FOR SHEER VANDALISM 

Q. Chairman Wood: Is it the idea that the bayoneting of the 
bed was to bayonet people, or to search the beds for arms? A. 
Well, I don't believe myself that they thought a child was in the 
bed. God knows they have sent enough people to death, but I don't 
think they would go that far. But I do think they bayoneted the bed 
to destroy everything they could. 

Q. Well, of course, they might bayonet the bed if they were look- 
ing for revolvers. A. Well, I don't think they would be foolish 
enough to hunt for revolvers with bayonets. Revolvers are usually 
handled more careful than that. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What time did that take place? Was it after 
dark? A. Yes, 11 o'clock. 

Q. Do you know, from the accounts of the neighbors who saw 



929 

this, that the house was well lighted while this was going on? A. 
It was well lighted, because they were seen from other houses going 
through the house. Mr. Forde's house is on a very narrow street, 
and people saw them going through the house. In fact, a young 
chap named Sheehan did see them go through the house bayonet- 
ing different things. 

RAIDERS IN UNIFORM OF ENGLISH FORCES 

Q. Chairman Wood: I was interested by Mr. Forde's statement 
that they were in uniform. How much of the uniform could he see? 
A. He could see that they were in the uniform of the English armed 
forces. He saw that much. I saw them myself. 

Q. Senator Norris: Well, I suppose he was in the house when 
they came in. A. No, he was not. He was one of those who left 
the house and left the town with his wife and children. My own 
opinion is that some of the men who left the town had a right to stop 
in town. 

Q. You mean that they ought not to have gone? A. I believe, 
of course, I may be wrong in my belief, but I believe that if any- 
body comes in to break up or blow up the town, that the men in 
the town should do their best to protect the town. Of course, I don't 
think that any man should go out and fight when he has no arms. 
But even at the risk of death, I do think a man should do the best 
he can to protect his own home and his own town. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Any further questions that we want to ask 
Mr. Dempsey? 

WILFUL MURDER OF DISABLED EX-SOLDIER 

Q. Mr. Manly: Are there any matters that we have overlooked, 
Mr. Dempsey? Have there been any more recent occurrences? 
A. Yes. About ten or eleven days afterwards. Of course, the day 
after the burning of the town and the shooting of the soldier and 
the attack on the barracks — and I might mention in regard to the at- 
tack on the barracks that it was not a mere raid — it was a perfectly 
legal act of war. Both sides took their chances, and they got the 
enemy at the weakest possible time there — they took their chances 
that any side in war would naturally take. Curfew was put on the 
town about two days after the attack on the barracks. After ten or 
eleven days — about the seventh or eighth of October, I believe, 
behind the military barracks in Mallow there is a public park. This 
public park was appropriated by the council of the town for the 
benefit of the townspeople as a sort of sports field and general walk 
for the townspeople. It is situated in a very nice position. It is 
just on the banks of the Black Water, which flows through the town 
of Mallow. The people walk there in the summer time. The river 



930 

there is very shallow, and the children play along the banks of the 
river. The town park was not put outside of military bounds in any 
way, and the people of the town used to walk down to this park 
every day. And it was a sort of short cut from the southern end of 
the town to the western end of the town. But this particular morn- 
ing a man named Turner, who had served through five years of the 
war and who came out of it wounded — not badly wounded, but who 
had a pension from the British Government; he stopped in the 
eastern end of the town, and he was coming to the western end of 
the town where the town clerk lives. 

Q. Senator Norris: Was he a soldier? A. No, he was out of 
the army. 

Q. Pensioned? A. Yes; he was coming from his home to 
where the town clerk lives. 

Q. He was a citizen of the town? A. Yes, he was. He was 
going up to the town clerk with some papers in connection with his 
discharge. As well as being the town clerk, the clerk has something 
to do in connection with the labor exchange and pensions, and his 
papers had to go through him. He was making a short cut through 
the park. It was in the morning, about ten o'clock. There was 
nobody else in the park except a railroad man, who happened to be 
having a walk along the river too. When they came in line with 
the barracks this morning, this man was shot at. The first shot 
missed him. He was about five hundred yards from the barracks at 
the time. The second shot hit him, and he fell. The railroad man, who 
was about 15 yards away from him, saw the man, and he heard the 
shots, and saw the sentry in the act of firing from the barracks walls 
about five hundred yards from where the man was shot. The rail- 
road man himself got nervous, and the bank along the river — he was 
walking along the bank — was a bit high in this place. And he 
thought, when he saw this man fall, that the next thing they would 
do would be to fire at him. So he ducked down behind the bank, 
and he saw the sentry come down from the barracks, and come down 
as far as the man who had been shot. This sentry looked at him, 
and he called to the barracks, — he signaled to the barracks for assist- 
ance. They brought down a stretcher and they took the man back 
to the barracks. He was badly wounded — a bullet wound right 
through the stomach. And he died three days afterwards. This 
railroad man, when he saw them carrying him away, ran for a priest 
and a doctor. 

WANTON FIRING ON UNARMED TOWNSPEOPLE 

Before they carried him away, soldiers came down to look at him. 
While the soldiers were looking at him, he went for the priest and 
the doctor. And the priest and doctor had arrived in the park be- 



931 

fore the man was actually carried to the barracks by the military. 
But when the shots were heard, and the priest and doctor were seen 
running towards the park, quite a number of the townspeople 
gathered in the other end of the park to see what was wrong. The 
military came out, and they fired at the people in the park. I do not 
say they fired to kill them, because none of them were shot, but they 
fired as a matter of terrorism pure and simple. Meantime, they 
took him to the barracks, where the wounds were tended to, and then 
they took him to the Cork Military Hospital, where he died three 
days afterwards. 

BROTHER'S ONLY SATISFACTION A THREAT 

This man's brother, Turner, who had served all through the war, 
and who had distinguished himself in the battle of Jutland I how 
much the English forces distinguished themselves there, I don't 
know), but he distinguished himself in some way or other, and got 
a medal. And he went to the officer of the barracks and asked him 
whey they fired on his brother, and the officer answered him, "It was 
a good job that you were not there, too, or you would have got 
something also." And the brother said, "It serves us right, my 
brother and me too, for fighting for England." That conversation 
I heard from the brother about ten minutes after it happened. 

GOVERNMENT'S SOLE EXCUSE A FALSEHOOD 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was any inquiry made — any explanation? A. 
They did. They held an inquiry into it. There was a question in 
the House of Commons, and the answer to the question was that the 
barracks was being attacked, and they fired in self-defense. Well, 
the barracks was being attacked by a man who had been coming 
through the park with his discharge papers, and he attacked the 
barracks by being fired at. 

Q. Could you give the name of the railroad man? A. His 
name is Wright. 

Chairman Wood : Unless there is some other question, we are very 
much obliged to you for coming to us, Mr. Dempsey, with this very 
interesting story that you have given us. 

AN EYE-WITNESS OF EVENTS IN MALLOW 

Q. Mr. Manly: Are there any further instances, Mr. Dempsey? 
A. Well, I don't know of any. If Miss Addams or any of the 
gentlemen would wish to ask me questions, I should be very happy 
to give you anything that I can give. I may state that all that I 
have given in evidence here I have been practically a witness of 
myself. I have been on the grounds myself in Mallow. 



932 

Q. Senator Norris: In all the instances in your testimony where 
you have not been a witness yourself, where what you have told has 
been given to you, if you have got it from somebody else, have you 
indicated each time the source of your information, like this last 
story that this soldier's brother told you? A. Yes, I have. That 
soldier's brother told me that himself. And the other things I have 
witnessed myself. I was there all through the burning. And when 
T was not there, my mother-in-law and my family were there. And 
every other answer I have given, I have given as I heard it from the 
people themselves. 

WAR ON A DEFENSELESS TOWN 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: I want to ask you a question. On the 
night that the town was wrecked and the town hall was burned, how 
many soldiers came in at that time? A. Approximately about 90. 

Q. And the population of the town is what? A. About 4,500. 

Q. It means that there would be about 1,000 or 2,000 men and 
boys in the town. A. There would be about 2,000, yes. 

Q. It is very evident that you are not armed. A. Of course 
we are not. 

Q. I should think you could beat such a mob up. A. Well, if 
the townspeople had been armed, they would not have allowed the 
town to be burned up. 

Q. There you were, an unarmed people living peacefully in your 
own town, and an army of 90 armed men came in and made war 
on you. A. That is the situation, exactly. That is the situation as 
it was on the night of the 27th of September. I was there, and saw 
the whole thing myself. 

Q. I suppose ten armed men could have done the same damage. 
A. Yes, they could, exactly. 

Q. Ten armed men, who had the full power of the Government 
back of them to commit damage indiscriminately on a defenseless 
people, could have done the same thing. A. Ninety men, I might 
say, came in with all the modern utensils of war. And they had 
ten to fourteen from the barracks of Mallow. There was something 
more than a hundred of them. 

Q. Senator Norris: When you say 90 men, you mean the men 
who came in these lorries? A. Yes, exactly. There are about 30 
men to a lorry. 

Q. How were they armed? A. Well, they were armed with 
rifles, bombs, revolvers, bayonets, petrol, and all the modern im- 
plements of war. 



933 

OUTRAGES EMBITTER PEOPLE AGAINST SOLDIERS 

Q. Chairman Wood. Has there been any change in the rela- 
tionships of the townspeople with the soldiers since this happened? 
A. Of course there has been. Before this a lot of the people were 
friendly to them. A lot of them, until it came home to themselves, 
hardly believed the stories told about the soldiers in other towns. 
Then they saw what happened in Mallow. Some of the people who 
were burned out, their sympathies were all the other way. For 
instance, that Protestant and Unionist, Mr. Quaile, his sympathies 
were all against us. Well, his house and his whole place of business 
was burned out for nothing at all. 

LOCAL POLICE DO NOT ATTACK TOWN 

Q. You say that some of them behaved very well about aiding 
with the extinction of the fire, and with helping the women and 
children find shelter? A. Yes, the local police force did. A good 
deal of the women and children of the town ran to the barracks for 
shelter, and got it there. And some of the local police force came 
out with the Black-and-Tans who were there and helped us control 
the fire. We are very lucky in Mallow, because we have only four 
Black-and-Tans stationed in the town. That is due to the fact that 
we have got a military barrack in the district. It is only in towns 
and villages where there is a military barrack that they are not 
sending the auxiliaries and the Black-and-Tans. The four men that 
we got there, I believe, are different from the ordinary Black-and- 
Tans, for on that night they did all they could to help us save the 
town. 

Q. Chairman Wood: They have some human characteristics, in 
other words? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Senator Norris: You say these men were drunk. Were they 
drunk when they came, or did they get drunk after they came? A. 
They got drunk after they came. They confiscated all the drink they 
could find in the town. 

Senator Norris: Well, they wanted to destroy the liquor. They 
made themselves prohibition enforcement officers. What they could 
not drink they destroyed. 

Q. Mr. Manly: But it is a fact that of the forty or fifty soldiers 
stationed there, only twelve or fourteen came out and took part? 
A. Yes. 

Q. So it was not the people who were in the barrack when it was 
attacked who participated in the burning that night A. Yes, the 
local lancers did not participate in the attack. 

Q. In other words, the men who were attacked did not take part 
in the raids? A. That is right. 



934 

Q. Chairman Wood: This Lancer regiment has been sent off 
since then? A. Yes. 

Q. And the same R. I. C.'s and Black-and-Tans are there now? 
A. They have been increased since then. 

MARAUDING BLACK-AND-TANS VICTIMIZE 
MALLOW MERCHANTS 

Q. Has there been increased friction there since this occurrence? 
A. Yes, there has been. Lorries loaded with Black-and-Tans have 
come into the town since then. I have seen two instances of it my- 
self. I was coming home from work one evening, and outside of 
the police barracks were about 7 or 8 empty lorries. I learned that 
they had been full of Black-and-Tans, and they had gone into prac- 
tically every shop in the town and had demanded food and drink, 
and got food and drink, and when they were going away they refused 
to pay for it and said, "Foot the bill to de Valera." 

ALL FIREARMS ABSOLUTELY PROHIBITED 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Do the hardware stores in towns like 
that carry guns and ammunition? A. They are not allowed to. 

Q. No guns or ammunition of any kind? A. No, they are not 
allowed to sell guns or ammunition or anything like that. 

Q. Mr. Manly: How long has that been true? A. Well, they 
were allowed to sell cartridges for shooting wild ducks and game of 
that sort up to about two years ago. But after that it has been done 
away with. 

Q. So it is impossible for an Irishman to buy firearms of any 
sort now? A. No, sir. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: But how about an Irishman going 
over to England and buying them over there? They are allowed 
to sell them over there, are they not? A. You could, but you 
would be caught with them coming over, and they would be taken 
away from you. Under the present martial law regime, if you are 
caught with a rifle or a revolver you will be shot. 

PEOPLE DISARMED, THEN WARRED UPON 

Q. As I understand the situation in Ireland, the people of Ireland 
have been by decree of law disarmed, and after being without any 
means of protection, then an army of a hundred or a hundred and 
fifty thousand men has been sent in there to make war on them. Is 
that the impression that you get? A. That is the condition in 
Mallow. That was the condition there on the night of September 27. 



935 

Q. Chairman Wood: Except that there are not a hundred and 
fifty thousand soldiers, are there? l A. No, there are about one 
hundred thousand there now, as nearly as we can judge. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Well, it doesn't require much courage 
to be a soldier under those conditions, does it? A. No, sir. 

IRELAND READY TO GIVE EVIDENCE BEFORE 
WORLD 

Before I finish, I would just like to thank you for your patient 
hearing. And I hope that the great people of America will deserve 
the blessing of Ireland. We are prepared to give our evidence 
straight before any court, any commission, or any people in the 
world. The facts are there. The facts of Mallow, as I gave them 
to you, are true. And the facts in other parts of Ireland are the 
same as I have given them to you. And we are not afraid to face 
any audience in the world with the evidence I have given you. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Mr. Dempsey, will you leave the records with 
the Commission that you have read here? A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Are those records filed with the council? 
A. Yes, filed with the clerk of the council of which I am the chair- 
man. 

The Commission : Thank you very much, Mr. Dempsey. 

(The witness was thereupon excused.) 



TESTIMONY OF MR. J. L. FAWSITT 

Chairman Wood: Mr. Fawsitt, will you take the stand, please, sir? 

(Witness takes stand.) 

Q. Chairman Wood : Mr. Fawsitt, it is very good of you to come 
clown and talk to us. First of all, will you state your name and 
residence, and the official position you hold, for our record? A. 
Yes, sir. J. L. Fawsitt. I am from Cork City, Ireland. I am in 
this country as Consul-General, representing the interests of the 
Republican Government of Ireland. 

Q. And your American residence? A. 119 Nassau Street, New 
York. In Ireland I occupied the position analogous to that of a 
secretary to one of your chambers of commerce. For the past seven- 
teen years I have been associated with the work for the industrial 
development of Ireland. That has been my study and my sole occu- 
pation in that time. 

Q. We should be very glad, sir, if you would give us something 
of the background and the economic conditions in Ireland, we will 



1 Mr. Arthur Griffith's estimate of the minimum number. of British forces 
in Ireland is 150,000 men. See evidence, p. 148. The number lately has 
been largely increased. 



936 

say, prior to the recent development of your Government there. 
And then sketch for us, if you will, the outline of the Government 
as it has grown up. 

CATTLE DISPLACE HUMAN BEINGS IN IRELAND 

Commissioner Howe: Would you mind going back, in your begin- 
ning at least, — I don't mean to suggest that you should devote any 
more time to it than you want — but back to the time of the Hungry 
Forties? I am particularly interested in the economic changes in 
Ireland that came in prior to the Land Purchase Acts and other 
activities. A. The industrial position of Ireland in the period 
prior to the establishment of the Republican Government might be 
summed up as one of stagnation somewhat. We were a people who 
had fallen from over 8,000,000 to just slightly over 4,000,000, and 
that in a period of roughly seventy years. Those seventy years were 
years of peace, comparative peace in Europe. In those seventy years 
there was no war, as we understand war today, in Ireland. What I 
want to bring out is that, in a period of peace, the population of Ire- 
land fell from more than 8,000,000 to slightly over 4,000,000. We 
lost in that seventy years as many people as we have in Ireland to- 
day. In that time every other subject nation in Europe increased in 
population. The general condition of the economic life of the coun- 
try was this: agriculture was our main industry, yet we were aban- 
doning tillage; we were growing less and less foodstuffs in the 
country; and we were coming to rely more and more on the harvests 
of foreign nations. Instead of producing food to sustain our own 
people, we were growing grass to raise live stock. Cattle displaced 
human beings. Small holdings gave way before large grass ranches. 
Where a hundred families found a means of sustenance, they were 
replaced by a herd and a dog. 

CATTLE-RAISING IMPOVERISHES IRELAND FOR 

ENGLAND'S ENRICHMENT 
That industry of cattle-raising was an uneconomic one. We did 
not finish our cattle in Ireland. We merely produced them to what 
is known as the store stage. We shipped in round numbers a 
million head of them every year out of Ireland in that unfinished 
state. I am talking of cattle. In addition, we had a large export 
of sheep and hogs. But every year we exported about a million 
head of cattle on the hoof to England. Those beasts were not fat- 
tened in Ireland. They were brought to a certain stage, and then 
they were shipped. They took with them the richness of the soil of 
Ireland. Only in the fattening stage do beasts return to the soil the 
richness which they consume in their growing state. In addition, 
they took with them valuable raw materials, all of which, if retained 



937 

in Ireland, would be profitable sources of employment and wealth 
for the Irish people. Every beast that left Ireland on the hoof was 
a loss to Ireland. That will be understandable when I say that the 
hide of the beasts is very valuable as the raw material for a large 
leather industry. And you can conceive what a very large and 
profitable leather industry we would have in Ireland if those hides 
were kept in Ireland. In addition, we lost the hoofs and horns. 
And then the cattle did not fetch as much in the English markets as 
they would if they had been finished and slaughtered in Ireland and 
their meats exported. More and more through the agricultural pol- 
icy of the British Government, this particular traffic in unfinished 
cattle was fostered and increased. The Department of Agriculture 
under the British Crown in Ireland had a prize scheme. They 
brought certain breeding animals into Ireland, non-dairying strains, 
and they offered prizes for the best store cattle that could be raised 
from these, and in that way they fostered this particular trade. It 
suited English conditions, and that was why this particular industry 
was fostered in Ireland. The cattle raisers in England bought the 
Irish live stock, fattened and slaughtered the animals in the course 
of a few months, and put the meat on the market as prime English 
beef. The hides and hoofs were then available in England as valu- 
able sources of employment for the British people. 

ABSENTEE LANDLORD SYSTEM PROMOTED 
CATTLE-RAISING 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: May I interrupt, Mr. Consul, to ask 
how such an uneconomic condition was brought about? Were your 
absentee landlords responsible, or was it the British Government? 
A. The absentee landlords were in a sense responsible, inasmuch 
as the tenant had to have the rent for the landlord on the gale day, 
and naturally he had to produce something that would give him a 
speedy return. 

Q. Were there any cases in which landlords dispossessed small 
farmers in order to have their lands for grass production? A. 
That has been historically demonstrated, sir; particularly in the 
midlands of Ireland, where the large holdings were made into grass 
ranches, and tillage farms were broken up. 

Q. Was there a change in the landlord policy after the famine, 
say, in '46 or '47? A. No, sir. The landlord as a class was not 
interested in what was produced. He was merely interested in get- 
ting his rents. And those rents, revenues from Ireland, were sent 
across to England or wherever the landlord happened to be. They 
did not come back to Ireland again. We are to this day exporting 
our revenue in another form. But I will come to that later. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Of course that was a short-sighted policy. 
The tenant put his own labor back into the land. A. Yes, but his 



938 

position was this: If he increased the value of his holding, his rent 
was increased. And the more wretched his holding was, the less 
his annual rental would be. 

ENGLAND'S DEMAND FOR CHEAP MEAT PREVENTS 
DEVELOPMENT OF TILLAGE IN IRELAND 

Q. Senator Norris: What was to hinder the tenant, if he wanted 
to, to raise something else besides cattle, if the landlords would let 
him do it? A. There was this also, sir. Under free trade con- 
ditions were different in Ireland from what they were in England. 
We were a pastoral, an agricultural people, and they were an 
industrial people. They wanted cheap foods. They wanted to 
draw on Ireland and on this country and other countries for their 
food supplies. The shipping competition across the ocean and 
other factors brought freight rates down to the point where it was 
not financially profitable for the Irish farmer to maintain his hold- 
ing in tillage. 

Q. Would not that be true of cattle? A. No, sir. England 
has maintained a very high reputation for the health of her live 
stock, and Ireland was the only country that was permitted to ship 
live cattle into England. 

Q. Well, I should think that would help Ireland. A. Yes, in a 
certain sense. We had almost a monopoly of the trade. But the 
cattle industry is profitable only in a certain stage of the industry, 
and our economic condition did not allow us to keep them that long. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: What prevented you from keeping 
cattle in Ireland? Did you not have the food? A. Partly that, 
and partly because we could not get the credit to enable us to hold 
and fatten them until they were more valuable. 

Q. Did they have food for them in England? A. Yes, they 
imported the food. 

Q. Senator Norris: Why did not you do that in Ireland? A. 
Perhaps it was due to lack of enterprise on our part. But we are 
dealing with a condition of 70 years back. 

CHANGE FROM TILLAGE TO GRAZING CUTS 
POPULATION 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Do I understand that there is a close 
connection between your loss in population and the change from a 
tillage to a grazing country? A. There is. But it is not so close 
a connection as that between the decrease in our wealth and the loss 
of our population. 

Q. Is it fair to say that that is a consequence rather than a 
cause? The country that loses so much of its population as did 
Ireland must be very weak from a biological standpoint. A. Yes, 
sir. And not only that, but we were living in Ireland under a penal 



939 

code. For instance, Catholics were debarred in Ireland from going 
into industrial pursuits. 

IRISH RAILROADS BUILT FOR STRATEGIC PUR- 
POSES AND NOT TO DEVELOP COUNTRY 

Q. Mr. Consul, I take it that the period of which we are speaking 
is the period of railroad development in England. Who controlled 
the railroads in Ireland, and where did the capital come from? A. 
The railroads in Ireland, if you will look at that map before you, 
were laid out for purely strategic purposes. They were not laid out 
to develop the country. There were several main lines laid out 
from Dublin in the east, to Cork, to Galway, and to Belfast in the 
north. And it was not until the last few years that branch or link 
lines have been laid out. 

Q. Were these railroads controlled by the English Government? 
A. The directors of the railroads before the war were largely Irish, 
and the stock was held largely in Ireland. But since and during 
the period of the war, the English Government took over the rail- 
roads, and is today holding them. 

Q. Chairman Wood: But you say the capital of these railroads 
was largely Irish? A. Yes, it was and is held largely in Ireland. 
But the Great Northern and Great Western Railroads are tied up 
very largely with English railroad companies. 

THROUGH RATE SYSTEM HAMPERS IRISH 
DEVELOPMENT 

There was another feature that militated against industrial de- 
velopment in Ireland, and that was what was known as through 
rates, under which it would be cheaper to send goods from Cork 
to London or Glasgow than it would be to send goods from Cork 
to Derry. And that works today against the development of Ireland. 

Q. Senator Norris: You could ship goods over to England, then, 
cheaper than you could from one place to another in Ireland? A. 
Yes. I am talking about railroad transportation, sir. It would be 
cheaper to send goods by rail and sea from Cork to London than it 
would be to ship by rail from Cork to Derry. 

Q. Now, if you were shipping goods today over to England, 
would it be cheaper to ship them on the railroads or by boat? A. 
How do you mean, sir; from Cork or Dublin? 

Q. Yes, Cork is a water town. A. Well, take an inland town, 
say, Athlone. 

Q. Yes. Now, to ship it from Athlone to England through 
Dublin? A. Yes, sir. It would be cheaper to ship goods from 
Athlone straight through Dublin to London than it would be to 
forward goods from Athlone to Dublin. 



940 

Senator Norris: That is what I am getting at. 
The Witness: That is the situation. You have some such situ- 
ation here in this country, I understand. 

ENGLAND MAINTAINS WAR-TIME RESTRICTIONS 
ON IRISH INDUSTRIES 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Was there any repressive legislation 
enacted during the war? A. During the war there were war-time 
measures passed by the English Parliament which were repressive 
to Irish industries. Certain of these laws remain in force to this 
day. For instance, it is not permitted to ship hides out of Ireland 
now except by special license. There were export restrictions on 
shipments from Ireland. Ireland had not a free market for her 
products, and control was maintained on selling prices and ship- 
ments. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Who does that, the Food Controller? A. 
The Food Controller of the English Government. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Would it be true to say that before 
the war the hold of England was kept on Ireland by way of dis- 
criminatory legislation against certain of your industries, so that you 
could not obtain the capital you needed to develop your interests? 
A. That would be true, sir; but it would be more true to say that 
the presence of a foreign government and the absence of a national 
government really interested in the country is responsible for the 
lack of investment of capital in Ireland. 

ULSTER NOT WEALTHIEST IRISH PROVINCE 

Q. The reason I am asking these questions now, Mr. Consul, is 
that, you will remember, the Ulster delegation that visited this 
country a few months ago said that the decline in population was 
not because of the Act of Union, because immediately following 
the Act of Union the population increased. It was due to the 
famine, which in turn was due to the failure of the potato crop; 
and that, of course, was due to the Irish people, and not the British 
Government. They say that Ulster is the wealthiest province in 
Ireland, and there British influence is strongest. A. That is the 
argument, indeed. But it is not true to say that Ulster is the most 
prosperous province in Ireland. It is demonstrable that the Prov- 
ince of Ulster is far less wealthy from the material point of view 
than is the Province of Leinster. Ulster has lost proportionately 
as much of her population by emigration as any other province in 
Ireland. It is not true to say that all the wealth of Ireland is 
cornered up in the northeast of Ireland. Belfast — and we are all 



941 

proud of Belfast — is a very large industrial city with important 
industries, such as shipyards, rope works, linen mills, tobacco 
works. But if we will take any one of these industries alone and 
compare it with the industries in the south of Ireland, we will get 
a better comparative idea of the relative values of these industries 
than if we consider separately the industries in the north of Ireland. 
Let us take the shipbuilding industry. Last year the return made 
to the shipyard companies from the industry was about $60,000,000. 
Let us take the egg and poultry industry of the south. That brought 
into Ireland about a hundred million dollars. Now, let us take 
the other side of the account. Those shipbuilders in Belfast had to 
import all their steel and practically everything that goes into the 
ship, with the exception of the labor that they employ in the yards. 
There was a contra-account to that $60,000,000 which they made. 

Q. Major Newman: The $60,000,000 was gross, then? A. Yes, 
sir. Let us take the contra side of the poultry industry account. 
I would say that not 3 per cent, of what goes into feeding the 
poultry is imported. The shipbuilding industry in Ireland is an 
exotic industry; it depends on foreign nations for its materials. The 
poultry industry does not so depend; it is indigenous. 

LAND ACTS NOT AN ENGLISH PHILANTHROPY 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: That brings us to another Ulster 
argument. They say that unjust as the policy of the British Gov- 
ernment towards Ireland might have been up to the passing of the 
Land Acts, since then it has been very generous; that Ireland owes 
her prosperity today, — take the poultry industry, for example, — 
very largely to the fact that England has furnished the capital very 
largely to develop the country, and that it is therefore very ungrate- 
ful for Ireland not to appreciate what England has done for her. 
A. On that land question, to which you refer, I take it, as the rea- 
son for our indebtedness to England, I would say that the soil of 
Ireland belongs of right to the Irish people. The soil of Ireland 
was alienated from the Irish people. It is now passing back to 
them. 

Q. To what extent? About how much, roughly, has now been 
acquired by the Irish people? A. I would say, roughly, about 
13,000,000 acres. There remain about 6,000,000 acres. So that all 
the land has not yet passed back to the Irish people. England has 
passed certain land legislation for us. But England herself caused 
that problem, and it was up to her to solve it for us. But it was 
not solved at her own expense. Such money as she advanced under 
the Land Acts for the purchase by tenants of their holdings is money 
that we have had to pay back ourselves, and to pay back with in- 
terest. And that expenditure of hers, which some of her propa- 



942 

gandists mention, that expenditure is not put down as Imperial 
expenditure; it is put down as Irish expenditure, and as part of the 
budget of Ireland, which England presents for Ireland every year 
to the British Parliament. That money is being paid back by the 
Irish farmers. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: If an individual farmer cannot pay, 
who makes it up, — does the local Irish committee or the Exchequer? 
A. If the individual farmer does not pay his annual payment, the 
county at large has to pay it. The county rates are responsible, sir. 

LAND ACTS SECURED BY THREATS AND FORCE 

Q. Do I understand that the various Land Acts came as the 
result of righteousness, or was there various kinds of pressure ex- 
erted, — land riots? A. Well, it has been our experience in Ireland 
that we have got very little for Ireland as the result of love; that 
what we have got largely followed the exercise of threats and force. 
The Land Acts were largely the result of agitation by the Irish 
people themselves. 

WORKMEN'S COTTAGES PAID FOR BY IRISH 

Q. Another argument I remember from the Ulster delegation 
was the matter of workmen's cottages in the congested districts. 
These, too, were set down by the Ulster delegation as one of the 
benefits shown Ireland and the Irish worker by the British Govern- 
ment. Can you explain that? A. There, too, what is done is paid 
for by the Irish people. It is put down by the British Government 
under the head of Irish expenditures. The occupiers have to pay 
the rentals and the rates to the councils. 

LAND ACTS DID NOT CUT INTEREST RATE 

Q. Chairman Wood: May I ask, in regard to these moneys and 
the rates of interest charged upon them, — as I remember, in the 
Land Purchase Acts the rate of interest is 3 J /2 per cent., is it not? 
A. There are five or six Acts, and the rates differ in each case. 
The rate on the last was 3^2 per cent. 

Q. At that time was 3^2 per cent, interest a very low interest? 
A. Not at that time. 

Q. Of course, according to the argument advanced by those 
gentlemen, it looks like a very great gift to Ireland. But it was the 
usual rate at that time? A. It was the current rate, sir. 



943 

UNIONISTS WHO LAUD LAND ACTS OPPOSED 

THEM 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: The Unionist delegation, to whose 
pamphlets I am referring, — did they favor these various Acts, or 
did they fight them while the fighting was good? A. To the bitter 
end. 

Q. In other words, am I to understand that those gentlemen 
opposed these Acts as long as they could, and now hold them up 
before us as part of their benefactions? A. The Ulster delegation 
are as carrion crows. They have fattened off Ireland while doing 
their best to strangle her. 

REVIVAL OF PROSPERITY DUE TO INCREASED 

TILLAGE 

Q. To what source do you credit the revival of prosperity that 
has been coming to Ireland lately? A. From a life-long study of 
the subject, I credit it to Irish industry. I mentioned a while ago 
that prior to the war we were living under a free-trade regime. 
Early in the war England discovered that that system was a weak- 
ness in her armor. She discovered that even with her immense 
navy it was not the easy matter that she had thought it would be 
in war-time to sustain her 40,000,000 people on food supplies drawn 
from distant countries. She reversed her policy and offered certain 
enhanced prices for foodstuffs. War conditions necessarily brought 
about increased prices for foodstuffs. But she, in return for an 
extension of the area of tillage, guaranteed to pay increased prices 
for food stuffs grown at home. And Irish farmers early in the war 
started to break up grass lands. They reverted to tillage. They 
did that first as a precautionary measure to sustain the Irish people 
themselves-, and because of the advice they were receiving from 
representative bodies in Ireland. And the result was that during 
the period of the war we increased our area under tillage close upon 
1,000,000 acres, which is something more than any other country 
of Europe of which I know did during that same period. Agricul- 
ture and food production is our main industry in Ireland. When 
the farmer has a ready and profitable market for his food products, 
every other industry, every other endeavor in Ireland participates 
in the prosperity of the farmer. I will give you an instance. At 
the end of the harvest, when the farmer sells his crops he pays for 
the seeds and the implements and the household necessities which 
he bought from the local grocery store and the local merchants 
during the preceding months. If his crops fail or if there is not 
a market for them, then these others suffer as well as the farmer. 
But when he is prosperous, there is prosperity throughout the whole 



944 

nation. It is a notable fact that following the Land Purchase Acts 
those tenants who had bought their land, — and more especially 
during the war period, as a result of the increased demand for food- 
stuffs, the farmers have gone in for a policy of increased tillage, 
and that has brought them increased profits, and with that they paid 
off their debts, bought new machinery, refurnished their homes, and 
generally raised the standard of living and comfort. That state of 
affairs did not obtain prior to the war. It is now more or less the 
general rule. The merchant classes in Ireland have prospered with 
the farmer. 

A STRUGGLE BETWEEN TWO CIVILIZATIONS: 
CAPITALIST TRUSTS VERSUS COOPERATIVES 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: What part has the cooperative move- 
ment, to which you have referred, played in this development of 
Irish agricultural interests? A. It has played a very notable part, 
sir. Agricultural cooperation is something that is traditional in 
Ireland. Prior to the coming of the English into Ireland, and in 
the early days of our history, we were more or less a communal 
people. The English came along and endeavored to impose their 
system on the Irish people. The battle which has gone on through- 
out the centuries is a battle of one civilization against another form 
of civilization. And the battle that is going on in Ireland today is 
the battle of one civilization against another civilization. And we 
are gradually reverting back to our national standards of life. And 
we have all over Ireland today some four thousand cooperative 
societies, — cooperative cheese factories, cooperative creameries, co- 
operative egg societies, cooperative banks and stores, and so on. 

I have remarked that the fight is a fight between two civiliza- 
tions. We are today, when we are fighting the English Government, 
fighting the English capitalist trust system. England before the 
war and during the war had become a country of trusts. The 
Black-and-Tans in Ireland, consciously or not, are doing the work 
of the trusts. They seem to have premeditatedly attacked coopera- 
tive institutions wherever they have come across them. I will put 
in later, sir, as an exhibit, a list of 42 creameries, cooperative con- 
cerns in Ireland, which have been burned down by the Black-and- 
Tans. Their machinery has been destroyed, and the stocks of food 
in them have also been destroyed. Those creameries represent an 
actual loss to Ireland of about $5,000,000. Potentially they repre- 
sent a loss to us of $100,000,000. They represent a loss to us also 
of employment and of productive wealth. Those creameries were 
built by the farmers out of their savings. They were financed by 
the farmers out of their savings. And at one fell stroke all that 
property has been destroyed by the agents of those various trusts, 



945 

because the British Government itself is but the agent of the British 
trusts, — the agent of the capitalist class in England. 

Q. Chairman Wood: When you say you are returning to the 
early system that prevailed in Ireland, you mean the Brehon laws? 
A. Partly so. From the earliest time the Irish people lived under 
these laws; lived happily and prospered under them. They repre- 
sent a whole code for social cooperation. 

Q. Are there many creameries in Ireland owned by English 
concerns? A. There were at one time a number of them, but the 
farmers have acquired them, either by buying them out or by erect- 
ing cooperative creameries in competition with them. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: They got them through competition? 
A. By competition. The farmers refused to supply them with dairy 
products. They supplied their own creameries instead. 

IRELAND EXPLOITED FOR IMPERIAL TAXES 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: As I understand your argument, Mr. 
Consul, England has exploited Ireland and retarded her develop- 
ment, first, by excessive taxation ; second, by control of financial 
institutions, banks, insurance companies, and the like, which control 
Ireland's credit; and third, either by discriminatory legislation or 
the failure to develop harbors and industries and those things. 
Taking up those points, the Ulster delegation charges that Ireland 
is peculiarly fortunate in regard to taxation; that it pays very much 
less to the Empire, even in proportion to population, than Scotland, 
for instance; that further, if you examine what Ireland appears to 
pay to the Empire, the total is made much less by reason of bread 
doles and other sums that come back to be spent in Ireland itself. 
It is further alleged, — I forget what year is commonly quoted, — 
that the amount actually spent in Ireland was greater than the 
amount raised by Irish revenue. On the other hand, I have seen a 
statement, I think it was by a British Commission, that since the 
Act of Union Ireland has been overtaxed by some hundreds of mil- 
lions of pounds. Could you give us the facts of that case briefly? 
A. Yes, I have some notes here to which I will refer. We have no 
exact data on British taxation. There is no exact data available. 
Ireland "contributes" — that is the expression used in the English 
newspapers, — Ireland's contributed revenue is not really known, and 
the figures which the British Treasury offices publish are arrived at 
by a system of guesswork. Also, when you are dealing with this 
system of taxation, one has to remember that England keeps the 
books. And it has been demonstrated by a number of commissions 
and a number of inquiries that she has never given Ireland the 
benefit of the doubt, and that she has always erred on her own side. 

Q. Chairman Wood : When you say that we have no exact figures 



946 

for Ireland, does that mean that the British Government does not 
keep its books in a way that the figures are available, or does it 
refer to we who are on the outside? A. No, no. It refers to the 
situation between the English people and the Irish people. England 
abolished the separate customs, and because the separate customs 
are abolished, it is not possible to give exact data as to what Ireland 
contributes to England. The contributed revenue is largely, then, 
what the Treasury estimates show it to be; but the exact amount is 
not known. The revenue collected in Ireland can be accurately 
known. The Financial Relations Commission appointed in 1894 
found that Ireland was paying one-eleventh of the revenues of the 
United Kingdom. Ireland's taxable capacity at that time was esti- 
mated at one-twentieth. Her "contributed" revenue then of 
£6,643,719 was found to be excessive by two and three-quarter 
million pounds annually. 

NEITHER SOUND FINANCE NOR ECONOMICAL 
GOVERNMENT IN IRELAND 

Now, as far as the actual system of taxation is concerned, there 
is neither sound finance nor economical government in Ireland. 
The most important feature in the financial arrangement in Ireland 
is the continual drift upwards in public expenditure. The gross 
income in Ireland, assessed by the Income Tax Commissioners, in 
1908-1909 was only £39,737,023. The expense of government at 
that time was equal to 40 per cent, of the assessed income. Another 
fact to keep in mind is that expenditure in Ireland is not the same 
thing as Irish expenditure. I can illustrate that point later. 

To be historically accurate, it is well to bear in mind that before 
the Act of Union no English act of Parliament had ever compelled 
the Irish people to pay a tax, and England had never used its legis- 
lative power to compel Ireland to provide any contribution to im- 
perial expenditure. England is today taxing Ireland, and England 
is today compelling Ireland to contribute to imperial expenditure. 
And in connection with that question of imperial expenditure and 
Ireland's contribution thereto, it is well to bear in mind that no 
English colony contributes to imperial expenditure. They are very 
wise. They know that to export their revenue means to- export their 
people. We have been exporting our revenue, and we have been 
exporting our people. Neither Canada nor Australia nor South 
Africa contributes to the imperial support at the present time. 

BRITAIN EXTRACTING WAR COST FROM IRELAND 

I suppose you have figures on Ireland's current payments to the 
British Treasury. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Perhaps you can give them to us anyway. 



94? 

Q. Commissioner Howe: I would like to verify them, Mr. Con- 
sul. The figure we have is £41,000,000 for 1920. A. Yes, for 1920. 

Q. And the expenditure in Ireland is how much? Have you it 
there? A. I have the 1918 and 1919 figures. We have not got the 
figures for 1920. 

Q. I wonder if you could read that into the record? A. This 
is taken from the British White Paper on Revenue and Expenditure 
for the financial year ending March 31, 1919, and includes the 1918 
figures for comparative purposes. This is the revenue of Ireland 
as alleged to be contributed: 

1918 1919 

Customs £6,670,000 increased to £9,744,000 

Excise 2,995,000 increased to 4,825,000 

Estate duties 1,181,000 increased to 1,238,000 

Stamps 439,000 increased to 619,000 

Income tax 7,079,000 increased to 8,808,000 

Excess profits 6,822,000 increased to 10,040,000 

Q. Commissioner Addams: But there was a general rise in war- 
time taxation, wasn't there? A. Yes, I will give you the interpreta- 
tion afterwards. Land values, the one solitary item of the lot, fell 
from £5,000 to £4,000. The total of those taxes alleged to be con- 
tributed went from £25,191,000 in 1918 to £35,278,000 in 1919. 
Then, in addition to those taxes, there was the postal, telegraph, 
and miscellaneous items. We get some value from those, however. 
The total as alleged to be contributed from all of those sources, 
together with the "contributions" that I have already stated, in the 
year 1919 amounted to £37,275,000, and in 1918 to £26,865,000. 
There is, therefore, an increase of over £10,000,000, or nearly 
$50,000,000, — a huge increase, — in Irish revenue in one year. This 
goes to show that England has considerably enlarged the war in- 
demnity which she is extracting out of Ireland. Now, as regards 
the larger revenue, as to how it is raised and as to how it is divided 
up, perhaps I can put those figures in. 

ENGLAND'S EXTRAVAGANT AND UNJUST 
CHARGES UPON IRELAND 

Q. Commissioner Howe: That will be sufficient as to that. In a 
general way, what is it spent for? A. Perhaps the expenditure 
will help us to arrive at that. England's Irish expenditure, — that 
is, what the English Treasury alleges it spent in certain services. 
The money is not necessarily expended in Ireland, as I will explain. 
The services were as follows: The Civil List went from £135,000 
in 1918 to £139,500 in 1919. Payments to Local Taxation Accounts 
fell from £1,475,000 to £1,468,500. The amount spent on votes 
of credit passed in the British House of Commons increased from 
£9,392,000 to £9,704,000. Customs, excises, and Inland Revenue 



948 

increased from £317,000 in 1918 to £329,000 in 1919. The Post 
Office expenditure increased from £1,683,000 in 1918 to £1,896,000 
in 1919. 

The total Irish Expenditure under the heading of Irish Services 
was £22,161,500 in 1919, as against £13,002,000 in 1918, showing 
an increased expenditure in the period of nine millions. The total 
revenue as contributed by Ireland as shown in the same paper by 
the English Treasury is £37,275,000, so that they levied £37,000,000 
to pay £22,000,000, and they have a profit of £15,000,000. 

Now, as to the Civil List, — that is the information you required. 
In 1919 the votes were: 

Pensions for Judicial Services £22,000 

Inspectors of Anatomy 500 

Copyright Compensations 500 

Lord Lieutenant of Ireland 20,000 

Courts of Justice, Salaries 96,000 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Is that for salaries in Ireland alone? 
A. Yes, sir, without perquisites. There was in the Civil List an 
increase of only £4,000 in the period 1918 and 1919. There was 
an increase of £4,000 for Judicial Services. Apparently these are 
the salaries of the judges on the Consolidated Funds. Lord French, 
be it noted, is charged as an "Irish Service." They do not charge 
the Governor-General of Canada or of Australia or of South Africa 
as a Canadian or Australian or African expenditure. Such officer 
is charged as an imperial expenditure. In Ireland we have to act 
as host to Lord French, and we are taxed to maintain him and his 
suite. 

Again, in 1919, under the Land Purchase Acts £40,000 is paid to 
Local Taxation Accounts, which we pay back with interest. Then 
there was an Agricultural Grant of £728,000; in lieu of local grants, 
£79,000; licenses, £212,000; cost of collection of motor-car licenses, 
£1,000; beer and spirit duties, £124,500; and in relief of rates 
generally, £284,000. These grants are made for land purchase, 
relief of rates, and for educational purposes. In spite of the enor- 
mous increase in taxation, the amount available to relieve the rates 
has fallen down £7,000 a year, and the English Treasury appears 
to have effected the only known savings at the expense of the Irish 
rates. 

IRELAND TAXED FOR ENGLISH PUBLIC 
BUILDINGS 

Now, there is this item of "Voted," £9,704,000. This vote now 
includes upkeep for the English Royal Palaces, the public build- 
ings, the Houses of Parliament, the diplomatic and consular build- 
ings, one-fourth of the public buildings of Great Britain. All these 



949 

are put down in the Imperial account under the heading of "Gen- 
eral." In other words, this expenditure, amounting to approxi- 
mately £700,000, is not charged to England, although nearly all 
of it is spent in England, under the control and supervision of 
England, and for the benefit of England. "General Expenditure" 
is merely a term for English expenditure partly loaded on Ireland. 
We in Ireland are charged for the upkeep of Westminster, the 
diplomatic and consular buildings, and other buildings occupied 
by men who certainly do not work abroad in our interests. Public 
Buildings in Great Britain involved a vote of £695,000, and England 
contributed only £532,000 of this. This is pure nonsense, because 
no public building in Great Britain can represent anything else but 
an English expenditure. England erects these buildings and staffs 
them, and she has no more right to expect us to pay for them than 
she has a right to annex our country. 

Another point in connection with that vote is the item of £781,500. 
This is for the salaries of the Civil Departments and the expenses 
of the English Houses of Parliament. According to the person who 
compiled this return, the expenditure of the House of Lords Offices 
and the House of Commons is not an English expenditure! We 
have to pay our share of it. Irish rates and Irish taxation have to 
go to maintain the House of Commons and the House of Lords and 
the staffs of those places in England. 

The following items, too, represent "Expenditures on Ireland": 
..■"The Lord Lieutenant's household, £3,000; the Chief Secretary for 
Ireland, £25,500. This is for Sir Hamar Greenwood of Black-and- 
Tan fame. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: What does he get that for? A. Salary 
and his staff's services, and so forth, — for his official household. 

Q. Senator Norris: Annually? A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Quite a good job! A. Yes, financially. 

The Department of Agriculture gets £167,000 

Charitable Donations 2,000 

Congested Districts Board 170,000 

Local Government Board 131,500 

The Public Record Office 7,000 

Public Works Office 37,000 

The Registrar-General's Office 14,000 

Valuation 30,000 

The total expenditure under these heads is £586,000 

Now, the corresponding expenditure in Scotland is only £227,500. 
It is noteworthy that the expense of the Chief Secretary is charged 
to Ireland, like the expense of the Lord Lieutenant, and neither of 
them is considered an imperial expense, as similar imperial officers 
are for British colonies abroad. They are put down as Irish ex- 
penditure, that Ireland must contribute to England. 



950 

COST OF "LAW AND POLICE" FOR IRELAND 

£3,040,500 was also put clown under "General Expenditure" to 
cover "Law and Police," — "Law and Police" for Ireland! There 
is the sum of £2,804,500 for "Law and Police" in England; 
£502,500 for Scotland; £3,040,500 for Ireland, and General Ex- 
penditure, £202,000. It appears that the administration of justice 
and the maintenance of law and order is more expensive in Ireland 
than in England, with ten times our population; while Scottish "law 
and order" costs only one-sixth. And yet we are told and it is 
blazoned all over the world that there is neither law nor order in 
Ireland! And we are taxed. this £3,040,500 a year for the mainte- 
nance of "law and order" in our country! The maintenance of the 
army and navy is not included in that. 

Q. Chairman Wood: It does not include the white kid gloves 
they get? A. No, it does not. 

Q. Senator Norris: It does include the police? A. Yes, sir, 
it does. 

Q. Where do you put the Black-and-Tans? A. They were not 
in existence then. 

Mr. Manly: You have not had the bill for that yet, — it will come 
later. 

Q. Chairman Wood: May I ask, Mr. Consul-General, with regard 
to the grants that are said to be withheld from certain local boards 
in Ireland: those grants you refer to are simply proposed to be 
paid. They have not been paid for this year. It is those grants 
that are being withheld now, is it not? A. That is right, sir. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: You gave figures a while ago show- 
ing that Ireland was paying one-eleventh of the taxation when one- 
twentieth would be her right proportion. A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Has anyone made out a similar statement for the figures you 
have given? What proportion of these figures you have just sub- 
mitted should Ireland pay? A. I have given no study to that, and 
I don't know of anyone who has gone into it. But this much I can 
say: the Irish Republican Government could administer the affairs 
of Ireland within present revenues and immediately return from 
twenty to thirty millions of the taxation that England is levying on 
Ireland. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Including everything, — military de- 
fense and everything? A. Yes, sir. 

TWO DISTINCT GRIEVANCES 

Q. Mr. Consul-General, am I right in stating that there are two 
grievances here? First, the grievance that an honest Unionist might 
present, that the government of Ireland is extravagant and that the 
proportion paid by Ireland is too great. That is one grievance that 



951 

a Unionist and a Nationalist would admit. But there is a second 
grievance that I take it the Republicans assert. I take it that you 
object to paying anything for imperial expenditure when you are 
not interested in being a part of the Empire. If I may refer again 
to the Ulster delegation, I have in mind the oft-repeated statement 
made by them and others that Scotland never murmurs, and why 
then should Ireland. Is it a legitimate answer that Scotland is 
content to be part of the Empire and Ireland is not? A. Well, 
so far as we are concerned, we are not content to be a part of the 
Empire and we never have accepted a position as part of the Empire. 
Q. In other words, if Scotland paid the same proportion as you 
do for being a part of the Empire, that would not remove your 
grievance? A. No, sir, it would not. 

EDUCATION OR POLICE 

There is another matter I want to bring out. The maintenance 
of the judiciary and police cost over £3,000,000 in 1919. The vote 
for education in the same year was only £2,558,000, and £2,555,000 
for 1918. In that one year of 1919 the estimate for Irish education 
was increased by the noble sum of £3,000 over the previous year, 
and that in a war period when the cost of living and other expenses 
demanded that the teachers should be better paid, and when the 
upkeep of schools would cost more than in the preceding year. The 
other reflection that I have to make is that here England was willing 
to spend over three million pounds of our money on police; yet she 
actually passed only two and a half millions for the vote on 
education ! 

"GOVERNMENT HOSPITALITY" AND OTHER COSTS 

Now, there is an item called the Development Grant which 
amounts to £387,000 in 1919 as against £316,000 in 1918. This 
vote includes "Ireland Development Grant," £305,000. I want to 
remark on that that there is no such grant for development in Ire- 
land. It has gone some place else, or has been purloined to pay 
deficits on the issue of land loans. There is an item of £85,000 to 
pay for "Government Hospitality." This is a "dry" country, so I 
will not make any reflection on that expenditure. The cost of the 
new electoral act represented something like £65,000. I think that 
was the only genuine item in the whole list that we got any value 
for, — that was the Proporitonal Representation Act. It cost, out- 
side of local expenses, £65,000 to bring that Act through the Eng- 
lish Parliament and to administer it in Ireland. 

Old Age Pensions were £2,307,500 in 1918, and had fallen in 
1919 to £2,240,500, or a decrease of £67,000. The old people are 



952 

passing away, and the young men are growing up! The country 
is becoming younger. 

The Customs and Excise cost was £228,000 in 1918 and £230,000 
in 1919. And the Inland Revenue vote was £89,000 in 1918 and 
£99,000 for 1919. The cost of collecting the Irish revenue is less 
than one per cent. 

The Post Office Services vote in 1918 was £1,683,000, as against 
£1,896,000 in 1919. The revenue of the post office in Ireland is 
£1,869,000. It nearly balances. They voted £27,000 more than 
the actual revenue from the post office amounted to. There is a 
slight deficit, but we have no objection to taking over and admin- 
istering the Post Office Services in Ireland. 

Then there are the votes of credit. There was no such allocation 
in 1918/ In 1919 there was £8,624,500 allocated for this purpose. 
There is no explanation of what the votes of credit stand for. 

That is the statement taken from the White Paper issued by the 
British Government on Taxation. 

Q. Chairman Wood: What date, sir? A. It is for the financial 
years ending March 31, 1918, and March 31, 1919. 

SOCIAL LEGISLATION NOT MENACED BY 
REPUBLIC 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: I have heard it stated on a public 
platform that one of the difficulties about letting the Irish be inde- 
pendent is that the agricultural south and west would never stand 
for the social legislation which the workers of Belfast would want, 
and which they now enjoy under British Acts, and that therefore 
there is a very genuine cleavage in interest along that line, — not 
merely a sentimental one but a practical one. Is there reason to 
believe that that is the case? A. I certainly, sir, have no reason 
to suspect that the Irish agriculturist is a less progressive citizen 
than the Belfast shipyard worker. And I don't know of any social 
legislation enacted for the benefit and protection of Belfast workers 
by the British Government that could not be improved upon by the 
Irish Republican Government. 

Q. The speaker referred to old age pensions and unemployment 
grants. A. We could, sir, from our present revenue paid to Eng- 
land, not only pay the old age pensions, but we could pay a pension 
to every mother in the country. 

ULSTER LAGS BEHIND OTHER PROVINCES IN 
PREVENTION OF TUBERCULOSIS 

Q. Mr. Manly: Mr. Consul, have you the figures for tubercu- 
losis and relief measures for the different counties in Ireland? 



953 

Those figures, I believe, were collected in the document presented 
on behalf of the recognition of the Irish Republic. Those figures 
are very interesting on this point. They show that the contributions 
in Munster and Leinster are larger than for Ulster. A. Yes, sir; 
I have those figures here. 

Mr. Manly: They are contained in one of the appendices of that 
document. I think they are very much in point at this time. I 
believe they are under the heading of The Ulster Question. 

The Witness (reading from document): Money paid for treat- 
ment and prevention of tuberculosis, per 1,000 of population: 
Leinster, ,$11.50; Munster, $23.90; Connaught, $12; Ulster, $7. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Does that mean that there is less 
tuberculosis in Ulster? A. I am sorry to say, sir, that there is 
not. The deaths from tuberculosis in 1913 were: Leinster, 2,932; 
Munster, 2,195; Connaught, 913; Ulster, 3,347. There were fewest 
deaths in Connaught, which is supposed to be the po'orest province 
in Ireland. Ulster, rich, wealthy, progressive, prosperous Ulster, — 
it has the highest death rate from tuberculosis, and it pays the least 
for preventive measures to prevent tuberculosis. 

Q. Major Newman: Are those numbers of deaths, or death rates? 
A. Numbers of deaths. 

Q. Then in order to be accurately comparative, we should have 
the population. A. Well, I can give you the population. 

Commissioner Thomas: Nevertheless, those figures give you an 
idea of how much they spent for it. 

Senator Norris: The figures show the per capita rate. I cannot 
see how the population would change that or help it any. 

Major Newman: I was speaking of the number of deaths. 

LAND PAYMENTS AND OLD AGE PENSIONS 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Mr. Consul -General, are the annui- 
ties for the land being paid now? Are the payments for the land 
being kept up under the Land Purchase Acts where the term is still 
limning? A. I presume so. I have been here in this country for 
the past twelve or fourteen months. I am not as conversant with 
conditions at home as I was, but the county councils are responsible 
for the payment of those annuities. 

Q. And you have never heard that they have ceased? A. I 
have not, sir. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You were talking about the old-age 
pension. What is the amount of the benefits received? A. When 
I was in Ireland, sir, it was seven-and-six-pence per week for every 
person of 70 years and upwards — about nineteen pounds ten shill- 
ings per year. 

Q. A little less than $2 a week? A. Yes, sir. 



954 

ADMINISTRATON OF LOCAL TAXATION PROVES 
IRELAND SELF-SUPPORTING 

You asked me a little while ago about local taxation. It might 
be interesting to you to know about the sums of money that pass 
through our hands. This also is from an official paper. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: These are collections of the Irish Re- 
public? A. No, sir; these are the returns for local taxation in 
Ireland for 1917-1918, from the official reports of the local bodies. 

Q. Chairman Wood: How are these taxes levied? A. This 
taxation is levied, collected, and administered by the local bodies 
in Ireland. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Are the local councils collecting those 
rates at the present time? A. Yes, sir. The receipts for the pur- 
poses of local government in Ireland during the financial year 1917- 
1918, excluding loans and grants provided by statute and other 
grants from Government sources, and making the necessary deduc- 
tions for duplicate entries in the local accounts from which the 
returns have been prepared, amounted to £6,835,450. 

Q. Chairman Wood: This is for the whole of Ireland? A. 
Yes, sir. This was an increase of £279,083 as compared with the 
preceding year, and an increase of £1,450,206 as compared with the 
year 1907-1908, which is equivalent to 33.1 per cent, of an increase 
for the decade. Of this amount, 75 per cent, was raised directly 
by rates assessed on lands, buildings, and so forth; 9 per cent, was 
derived from tolls, fees, stamps, and dues; 7 per cent, came from 
rents of property in lands, houses, etc., while the remaining 9 per 
cent, was made up of various miscellaneous items of local income 
classed as other receipts, these proportions being practically iden- 
tical from year to year. This table gives the amount received from 
each of these sources: £4,356,551 as rates; £539,561 as tolls, etc.; 
£384,435 as rents; and £554,903 as other receipts. And it may be 
observed that, compared with the preceding year, there was an 
increase in rates of £220,538; in rents of £33,370; and in other 
receipts of £31,888; while there was a decrease of £6,713 in tolls, 
etc. The chief increase was in the poor rate, £314,866; while the 
increase in other rates was £719. But there was a decrease of 
£95,047 in municipal rates. The net increase under these heads 
amounted, therefore, to £220,538. And it may be seen that with 
the exception of the year 1911-1912, there were increases under the 
head of rates year after year for a long period. The rents derived 
from property, however, continue to increase. But this fact is 
mainly attributable to the great improvement made in connection 
with the housing of the working classes in urban and rural dis- 
tricts. The increase in the receipts from tolls, etc., does not call 
for any special notice. 

The total of the four branches of local revenue, the sum first 



955 

mentioned above, is regarded as the amount of the local taxation 
for the year; but it is to be noted that, unlike rates, the taxes known 
as tolls, fees, stamps, and dues are restricted in range of operation, 
and to a great extent represent payment for value received; while 
the income arising from rents and from other receipts is not the 
produce of any tax or rate, but is dealt with as such in its applica- 
tion to expenditure. Moreover, with regard to "other receipts," 
there are included under this head the profits of certain reproduc- 
tive undertakings in the hands of some of the local bodies, repre- 
senting 3.3 per cent, of the total net revenue of the year. The 
amount produced by rates, in which is included about £118,246 
raised in respect of water supplied for domestic and other private 
purposes (2.7 per cent, of the whole amount so produced), repre- 
sents an average of 5s. 4^4d. in the pound on the rateable valuation 
of Ireland at the beginning of the year, and an average of £l:0s:ld. 
per head of the population — 4,300,000 — as estimated at the middle 
of the year. A net sum of £4,857,243 obtained from local sources, 
including rates to the amount of £4,289,377, was applied towards 
the expenditure of counties and towns during the year. Thus, the 
public bodies raise and spend over £4,000,000 annually in admin- 
istering the affairs of the counties. 

Now, this was supplemented by payments made from the Local 
Taxation for Ireland Account to the extent of £1,317,646. These 
are the grants which are now withdrawn. And there were further 
grants from the Imperial Exchequer and other government sources 
amounting to £148,006, so that of the total net revenue of county 
and town authorities, 77 per cent, came from local sources, and 23 
per cent, from grants. On an average the grants were equivalent 
to Is. 9^d. per pound of rateable value, and to 6s. 9d. per head 
of estimated population as given above. The agricultural grant 
paid to the county councils amounted to £727,337, and is equal to 
nearly 18 per cent, of their whole revenue for the year. That gives 
you some idea of the problem which the Republican administration 
of local affairs has to meet in Ireland for the moment. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: That is, however, not a problem that 
you would face if the British forces were withdrawn and you col- 
lected all of your own revenue. A. Not at all, sir. 

Q. You could raise it either by an increase in the local rates or 
by national taxation. A. Yes, we had arranged, by the vote of the 
Dail, to increase the income tax. The figures here are somewhat 
mysterious to one who does not know the conditions of the cities in 
Ireland. Let us take the city's income, for instance. The valuation 
is put on the rental which the building would bring in, — not on the 
machinery and the stock in that house, but merely on the rental 
which it would bring in to the landlord. In England I understand 
that the assessment is on the machinery and stock. 



956 

Q. Major Newman: Mr. Fawsitt, in that connection, are these 
cooperative industries taxed? A. They (in common with coopera- 
tive societies in Great Britain) have been free from payment of 
income tax under statute of the British Parliament. 

Q. But they are not free from local taxation? A. No, they 
are not. 

LOCAL EXPENDITURES AND INDEBTEDNESS 

The net expenditure from revenue during the year amounted to 
£8,947,366; or, excluding electric lighting, gas, and tramway under- 
takings in the hands of municipal authorities, it was £7,618,479, of 
which a sum of £1,312,630, or 17.2 per cent., was applied to the 
discharge of borrowed moneys and the payment of interest and 
dividends on such moneys. Besides, additional expenditures 
amounting to £237,904 were defrayed from loans and stock, of 
which £109,777 was incurred in connection with schemes for the 
housing of the working classes in towns and for providing laborers' 
cottages in rural districts; while sums amounting to £44,138 were 
expended in connection with the three undertakings mentioned 
above. The local indebtedness on account of loans and stock at 
the close of the year amounted to £25,778,911. Of this, £10,829,585 
appertained to municipal authorities, being an increase of £9,172,- 
143 since 1878, the year in which the first of the existing code of 
Irish Public Health Statutes was enacted. The municipal indebt- 
edness includes £1,613,281 for water supplies; £2,132,842 for pur- 
poses of lighting; £1,066,767 for sewerage; and £1,635,649 in 
respect of schemes for the housing of the working classes; while 
for housing schemes in rural districts the indebtedness stood at 
£7,269,832. The amount standing to the credit of sinking funds 
applicable to the discharge of the portion of the local indebtedness 
which is repayable by such means was £1,556,442 at the close of 
the year. 

That is a summary which I have made from the local taxation 
reports for your information. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Do I understand your claims to be: 
(1) that British taxation has been excessive; (2) that it has been 
wastefully expended; (3) that the willingness of the local bodies 
shows a desire to support all possible social enterprises; and (4), 
that there is reason to believe that the Irish Republic is not only 
willing, but is able to support all socially useful enterprises at more 
than 20 per cent, less than the present cost of administration by the 
British Government? Is that your position? A. That is our posi- 
tion, sir. 



957 

BRITISH INSURANCE COMPANIES TAKE MONEY 
FROM IRELAND 

Q. I have heard it said that practically all the insurance com- 
panies are owned by British capitalists, and that all of the banks 
are British, and that all this constitutes a drain upon the financial 
wealth of Ireland. Is that correct? A. As a general statement, 
that is correct, sir. The insurance companies take a very large 
amount of money in premiums annually out of Ireland. 

Q. And they do not invest it in Ireland? A. No, they do not 
invest it in municipal bonds and so forth, like they do in England. 
Of course, they spend a small amount for office rent, commissions, 
and like expense. 

Q. Chairman Wood: But there is no arrangement like our Amer- 
ican insurance companies sometimes have for putting out in loans 
in the locality the sums received from premiums in that district? 
A. No, sir; there is no such arrangement. 

Q. Major Newman: Broadly speaking, they do not invest in 
Irish industry? A. Not in Irish industry or in Irish development, 
sir. 

BANKS DRAIN DEPOSITS TO LONDON INSTEAD 
OF AIDING DEVELOPMENT OF IRELAND 

Q. Senator Norris: How about the banks? A. We have in 
Ireland,, as you have here, savings banks and joint stock banks — - 
the capitalistic banks. There are 9 such joint stock banks in Ireland. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: How many? A. Nine. Of course 
they have over a thousand branches. Within the past few years 
two of those banks, — Ulster banks; one is named the Ulster Bank 
and the other is named the Belfast Banking Company, — have been 
bought out and acquired by English banks. Four of those banks 
have their head offices in London, and their boards of directors meet 
in London. The Bank of Ireland is, in addition, the bank of the 
British Government in Ireland. The whole system, so far as I have 
studied it, is that they take the deposits of the Irish people at a 
very nominal rate of interest,- — just before the war we used to get 
\ l / 2 per cent, and thought ourselves very fortunate to get 2 per cent, 
from the banks. 

Q. Major Newman: That is time deposits? A. I am talking 
of the joint-stock banks. 

Q. But of what character of accounts? A. We have two kinds, 
a deposit account and a current account. The current account is 
similar to your "checking" account here; and no interest is paid on 
that except for heavy balances by special arrangement. The deposit 



958 

account is the one I refer to. The farming class as a rule do not 
have current accounts. They put their money on deposit. That 
money is transferred to England and placed at the disposition of 
the Bank of England; and the Irish banks trade and carry on on 
the difference between what they receive from the Bank of England 
for the money and what the man who deposits it in Ireland receives 
from them. They are very different from the banks such as you 
have in this country, because they have no settled policy for the 
development of Ireland by the investment of these surplus funds in 
Ireland. That has constituted an enormous drain upon the resources 
of the country. Under a proper form of government, that money 
would be employed in Ireland for the development of the country. 
As it is under the present system, it is lying at the disposition of 
the Bank of England, and at a very low rate of interest there; and 
the Irish banks merely trade on the difference. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: That leads me to ask, Mr. Consul- 
General, about the general subject of the development of Irish 
resources. It is alleged, I believe, that Ireland has certain coal 
deposits and other mineral resources, which have not been ade- 
quately developed; that Ireland has harbors on the west coast that 
have not been developed. What is the reason for that? Is it due 
to the discriminatory policy of the British Government, or the 
character of the people? A. That question refers to the develop- 
ment of Irish resources, I suppose? 

Commissioner Thomas: It does. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Before you go to that, you said that 
these funds in the Irish banks were sent out of the country for 
investment with the Bank of England. Does that refer to deposits 
or savings accounts? A. The amount on deposit in savings banks 
before the war would not amount to £15,000,000 in the year. Al- 
most all of that is in the post-office savings bank, which is a British 
institution, and the funds of which, of course, are sent to England. 

FALLACY OF PAPER MONEY PROSPERITY 

Q. Our friends from Ulster said that the bank deposits in Ire- 
land had increased under English rule from $380,000,000 to 
$780,000,000 in ten years; and that would refer to these amounts 
combined. A. Yes. There is a misconception on that whole ques- 
tion as to the amount of money on deposit in Ireland. These 
Ulstermen, when they were here and made that statement, brought 
it forward as an evidence of Irish prosperity under English rule. 
They ignored or perhaps they did not know that the pound today 
in Ireland, which was worth around twenty shillings before the war, 
is today not worth eight shillings; and that if we were to compute 
the deposits of today on the value of the pound in 1914, it would 



959 

be found that the purchasing value of our money in those banks 
had very considerably depreciated. 

Q. The depreciation of the pound applies also to England, 
doesn't it? A. Yes, but that is no argument that the prosperity 
of the country has increased. It simply means that the country has 
been flooded with British paper money. 

COOPERATIVE LAND BANK HELPS SOLVE LAND 

PROBLEM 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Before you leave that subject, would 
you please discuss the cooperative banks that have been formed in 
Ireland during the past few years? A. The cooperative banks 
which were formed in Ireland were established as agricultural credit 
societies. 

Commissioner Howe: That is what I have reference to. 

The Witness: They have not very generally progressed, as far as 
my recollection on the institutions goes; they have not developed 
to the extent to which it was desired they would. That was due to 
a multiplicity of considerations. There has been a constant agita- 
tion, as any of you who are interested in cooperation know, — there 
has been a constant agitation against all cooperative enterprises; 
and steps were initiated in the British Parliament to prevent the 
spread of the cooperative movement in Ireland. I mentioned a while 
ago in those financial figures a grant known as the Irish Develop- 
ment Grant. Portions of that grant were originally intended to go 
to the development of cooperative effort in Ireland, including co- 
operative credit societies and those cooperative banks. That money 
has not been applied, largely due to the animosity of the trading 
element in England, and to a certain degree in Ireland itself. The 
principal bank for the cooperative industry in Ireland is the bank 
attached to the Irish Cooperative Wholesale Society. The Whole- 
sale Society is a trading society run on cooperative lines. Sir 
Horace Plunkett is one of the heads of it. Mr. Howard Barbour, 
an Ulster man, is also another of the heads of it. During the past 
year there was also established a land bank. The land bank was 
established to meet the needs of the agricultural communities in 
Ireland. The joint-stock banks have not at any time catered to the 
special needs of the agricultural class in Ireland. An object of the 
land bank was to assist in the purchase and breaking up of the 
large grass ranches in Ireland, in order to divide them up into 
economic holdings, and to put the Irish people back onto the soil 
in Ireland. I am glad to say that that bank has so far been very 
successful in its operations. Through its help some half dozen 



960 

large estates in Ireland have been acquired, have been bought out, 
have been broken up into economic holdings, and the agriculturists 
have been put back upon them. 

ORGANIZATION AND OPERATION OF THE LAND 

BANK 

It may be of interest to you to know how this bank functions. 
It does not purchase the land directly itself, nor does it deal directly 
with the tenant. One of its officers goes into a district where there 
is a large estate to be sold, and convenes a meeting of those having 
claims upon that land, and of those who have no land in the dis- 
trict, and those whose holdings are non-economic, — are not large 
enough to maintain their families in comfort. These men are sum- 
moned together and formed into a cooperative society. Through 
this cooperative society so formed the bank negotiates for the pur- 
chase of the estate. The bank advances the money to the coopera- 
tive society, which enables it to purchase the estate. The cooperative 
society and not the bank divides up the estate into economic hold- 
ings. The society and not the individual tenants is responsible to 
the bank for the payment of the annuities. So far that bank has 
been very successful, and I understand a half-dozen branches of it 
have been recently opened in various centers throughout Ireland. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: What statutory authority do you have 
to organize a bank of that kind? A. The bank was established 
by order or by decree of Dail Eireann. I will quote for you later, 
if you desire, the actual decree of the Parliament establishing the 
bank. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Why did not the British dissolve it? 
A. There are some things that are possible to the British, and there 
are some things which are not possible or practicable for them to 
accomplish. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: It had some original capital fund, 
then? A. It is operating as an ordinary bank, sir. It receives 
deposits and current accounts, and uses its resources to buy land. 

ALIEN LANDLORDISM NO LONGER AN OBSTACLE 

Q. Major Newman: They would have to find a willing seller. 
A. Land has gone to such a price in Ireland that landlords who 
formerly had refused to sell to their tenants are now glad to do so. 

Q. Has there not been some depreciation in land prices in Ire- 
land? A. No, sir. There has always been a land hunger in 
Ireland. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Does alien landlordism figure at all in 
the present situation? A. Alien landlordism doesn't figure to any 
appreciable extent. 



961 

Q. It would figure, I should think, in case of heavy taxation or 
confiscation of the land, or if the Irish courts valued the lands down 
too low. A. None of those matters, so far as I know, has so iar 
arisen. Where there have been disputes over land titles, those cases 
have been dealt with by the courts of Dail Eireann. 

Q. There has been no trouble, then, in connection with acquir- 
ing the land? A. No, sir. 

Q. Major Newman: They do not seem to fear that the land may 
be confiscated? A. So long as there are 4,000,000 Irish people in 
Ireland, there is no fear of confiscation. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: But they might fear for their alien 
estates. A. Of course, alien landlordism will have to go. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: It is, as I understand it, against Sinn 
Fein policy to permit alien landlordism. Your declaration of inde- 
pendence contains the statement that the land of Ireland belongs 
to the Irish people. A. Yes, sir. 

IRELAND'S RICH UNDEVELOPED MINERAL 
RESOURCES 

On that question of mineral development you were asking about — 

Commissioner Thomas: Yes, I was asking about it. 

The Witness: The question of mineral development in Ireland is 
in this position: we have not had a proper survey made of the 
mineral wealth of Ireland. Secondly, there has been a good deal 
of confusion in the different Land Acts as to the ownership of the 
minerals under the soil. Under one Act the ownership would vest 
in the tenant. In another, the landlord could maintain ownership. 
Under another Act the ownership of the minerals was reserved to 
the Land Commission, which was the British Government. That was 
true of the Act of 1893. That Land Commission has no money or 
no machinery to develop the mineral wealth, and the British Gov- 
ernment has not given it money to develop it. 

Q. It is not even partly explored? A. Only partly surveyed. 

Q. On the basis of what you do know, would you say that you 
have a large number of undeveloped resources, in comparison to 
other countries? A. Yes, sir. Coal, peat, iron. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Water power? A. Yes, we have water 
power which is running untapped to the sea. We have a very large 
rainfall in Ireland, which, if it were conserved, would supply an 
enormous quantity of electric light and power for domestic and 
industrial purposes. Then there are any number of untapped 
mineral resources — coal, lignite, lead, copper, bauxite, barytes — 
I could run through a whole list of them. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Could you file with the Commission 



962 

a list? I don't know that it would be of value now, but I think it 
might be in the final report, would it not, Mr. Howe? 

Commissioner Howe: Yes. 

Commissioner Thomas: I am particularly interested in asking 
this question because, with regard to Central Europe, the question 
was raised that self-determination with bankruptcy would be no 
good. And it is held that that is where Ireland would be. And that 
is why I am asking these questions. A. No, sir, there is no danger 
of bankruptcy in Ireland under Irish government. I have in my 
hand a copy of a lecture delivered by Professor E. St. John Lyburn, 
of Dublin University. The lecture is entitled, "Irish Minerals and 
Raw Materials: Opportunities for Development." It was delivered 
to the Committee of the Scientific and Debating Society attached to 
the Royal College of Science for Ireland. Professor Lyburn is ad- 
viser on mining matters to the Irish Land Commission. He has 
here, under various heads, dealt with the following mineral deposits 
in Ireland: barytes, diatomite, ochre, coal, cement, molybdenite, 
steatite, sand-lime brick, carbide of calcium, road-making materials, 
peat, iron ore, bauxite, fire-clay, lignite, pyrites, gypsum, felspar, 
glass sands, materials for paint manufacture, and mineral bleaching 
powder. He has developed each of those in his lecture. If you 
are interested in that publication, I can let you have it. 

Q. Chairman Wood: Can you file that with us? A. Yes. 

IRELAND CAN SUPPORT TWELVE MILLION 
PEOPLE 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: You would say, then, that Ireland is 
not dependent merely on its agricultural wealth for its future de- 
velopment economically? A. I am satisfied from my own study of 
Irish wealth and resources that she has within her all the possi- 
bilities of development for sustaining a large population. 

Q. What estimate would you make of the population that Ireland 
might comfortably and happily maintain if it was properly de- 
veloped? I do not mean if it is exploited, but if it is properly 
developed. A. I am satisfied that Ireland can support a population 
of at least 12,000,000 people. 

Q. Three times what you now have? A. Yes, sir. 

IRELAND'S UNEQUALED HARBORS NEGLECTED 

Q. I understand from a casual survey of the map that you must 
have some very fine harbors on your west coast. In what shape 
are they as regards present value? A. We have in Ireland the best 
harbors in Europe. There is no country in Europe fronting the 
Atlantic that has harbors equal to those that Ireland possesses. 



963 

Generally speaking, they are not in good modern-harbor condition. 
They have been neglected. They have been nobody's property. 
There is no public fund in Ireland out of which harbors can be 
developed and maintained, such as there is in other countries. It 
has not been to the interest of England to develop the harbors of 
Ireland, because her policy has been to secure for England the ship- 
ping and the trade of the world. The one harbor of Ireland that 
is in a position to be a serious rival of certain English ports is the 
harbor of Cork; and the English ports that I have referred to, prin- 
cipally Liverpool, have waged an unceasing warfare against Cork 
harbor. Cork harbor is the most advantageous harbor for Atlantic 
trade, for shipping can do more journeys in a given time from 
America to Cork Harbor than they can from America to English 
ports. They can make more journeys in that given time and at 
less cost for operation. And the cost of handling goods in Cork is 
much less than the cost of handling goods, say, at Liverpool. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Is that because of lower wages? A. 
Not because of lower wages alone. 

Q. Insofar as it is due to lower wages, it would not be a perma- 
nent advantage, would it? A. No, sir. It is due, among other 
reasons, to the fact that vessels do not -have to wait for an incoming 
tide to cross a bar. A pilot is not necessary; it is optional with 
the captain. The large shipping companies have not yet monopo- 
lized the shipping and dock facilities. Those are some of the con- 
siderations that make Cork a very great rival of certain English 
ports. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: How about Gal way? A. Galway has 
a very wonderful harbor, sir. But it needs an expenditure of a large 
amount of money to make it desirable for ocean-going liners. 

Q. Senator Norris: Now, a harbor like that would make it even 
more desirable for shipping from America, would it not? A. Yes, 
but you have to remember present conditions. 

Q. But I am thinking of the future. A. Blacksod Bay and Gal- 
way would be wonderful harbors for the development of trade be- 
tween Ireland and America. But what I have in mind is the Euro- 
pean trade as well. Galway and Blacksod would not compare or 
compete with Cork in this respect. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Mr. Fawsitt, has there not been a steamship line, 
— the Panhandle Steamship Company, — opened up for developing 
trade between America and Cork? A. Yes, two lines; one freight, 
the other for passenger traffic. 



964 

HARBOR BOARDS RESPONSIBLE TO IRISH 
PEOPLE WILL DEVELOP HARBORS 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: That situation is very important, and 
I want therefore to ask this question: Those harbors can be devel- 
oped by American capital, let us say? I mean to say, would the loss 
of British capital be a factor in the development of those ports? 
A. No. 

Q. I have heard that these ports could be developed if they 
could get capital. A. Let us take the case of Cork. Funds could 
be raised, for instance, on the revenue of the harbor. They do 
maintain the harbor at present out of revenue. The harbor would, 
and will be, developed when we have an authority sympathetic to 
the interests of the port. The harbor boards in Ireland, it is neces- 
sary to explain, have been in the hands of representatives of a 
particular class of persons in Ireland, — of the commercial class and 
the shipping class. They have not been elected on a popular fran- 
chise, such as the corporations and the county councils. To become 
a member of any one of the chief harbor boards you must, as a 
rule, hold at least one thousand pounds of the stock of that harbor 
board. It is necessary also to belong to the commercial or shipping 
community. And in certain cases the harbor commissioners are 
elected by the local shipping community and by the local chamber 
of commerce. Up to recently those boards have been controlled and 
the policy of those boards has been directed by men who were not 
friendly disposed towards the political aspirations of Ireland. The 
merchants and the cross-channel shipping representatives at those 
ports, the importers principally, were the men who were on those 
boards; and the English shipping companies were interested in see- 
ing that there was no foreign shipping trade. And the result is that 
those ports have not been developed, and it was not within the 
competence of the Irish people to see that they were so developed. 

Now, as a result of the recent elections, representation has 
been secured on the Harbor Board of Cork. That board is wholly 
elected by the Cork Corporation from its members as such and from 
trading interests. In the course of time that harbor board will 
come under the direct influence of the Republican Government. 
That is an important factor when you ask why our ports have not 
been developed. As soon as the harbor boards are made respon- 
sible to public opinion and public need, those ports will be de- 
veloped. 

Q. Major Newman: Those harbor boards are an incorporated 
body? A. They are an incorporated body. 

Q. You spoke of the issue of stock. A. Yes, that is the stock 
they put out for the development of the harbor. 

Q. They have charge of the harbor front? A. Yes, they have 



965 

charge of the harbor front, and their revenues come largely from 
the charges made for the use of the docks. 

OBSTRUCTIONS TO DEVELOPMENT UNDER 
ENGLISH LAW 

Q. Do they own the land along the water front? A. No, the 
English Board of Trade claims to have authority over the foreshore. 
The quays at Cork are owned— the harbor board has control over 
the quays; but the roads abutting to those quays are owned by the 
corporation in trust for the city. The Cork Harbor Board wanted 
to get control of certain swamp lands to enlarge their dockage 
facilities, and under their charter it was necessary to get a permit 
from the English Board of Trade before they could develop such 
lands. We are opposed to paying an annual rent to the Board of 
Trade for the use of such lands. 

Q. Chairman Wood: But the title to those lands was in indi- 
viduals, was it not? A. Yes, except the foreshore land, which is 
claimed by the English Board of Trade. 

Q. Senator Norris: What is the tide at Cork? A. Six feet or so. 
The largest vessels afloat can float in Cork harbor. The anchorage 
is almost unlimited. It was the base of the American fleet during 
the war. They had no difficulty in using Cork harbor or Bearhaven 
or any of the others. In addition to being spacious harbors, they 
are sheltered from the Atlantic winds. 

Q. Chairman Wood : The construction of a bridge over a navi- 
gable stream, for instance, as I understand it, is taken out from the 
authority of the local boards. A. Yes, sir; the law was that they 
had to get permission from the English Parliament or Privy Council 
to erect that bridge, or to change a roadway. 

Q. I remember a case of which my friends told me where a 
market was on one side of a river and the population was on the 
other, and the people had to drive fifteen miles or so in order to get 
around. They wanted to put a bridge across the stream. They went 
to London, and there was much obstruction encountered in their 
endeavor to get what they wanted. A. That appeared to be the 
ordinary experience. 

IRELAND'S DEMONSTRATED ABILITY TO 
GOVERN ITSELF 

Q. How far do the local functions belong to these local boards? 
We hear so much about Ireland not being able to govern itself. 
How much government is done for them? A. Well, you have 
heard me read today the total revenues which the local boards levy, 
collect and disburse, amounting to over £5,000,000 sterling annu- 
ally. They must give some value for that, sir. That money is 



966 

expended in the maintenance of roads, public lighting, water supply, 
sanitation, public health, education — so far as technical education 
is concerned — and the maintenance of libraries. 

Q. Most of the intimate functions of government, where they 
touch the individual human being, are already carried out by these 
local councils? A. Yes, subject to the English Local Government 
Board in Ireland. 

Q. These councils are made up entirely of Irishmen? A. Yes, 
sir, the local councils are elected from and by the Irish people. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Under the Lloyd George Home Rule 
Bill, Mr. Consul-General, supposing it were accepted, would the 
Irish Parliament have control of these ports and the other matters 
that we have been previously discussing? A. I must plead igno- 
rance of the Lloyd George Bill, sir. 

Q. I should imagine so, but I thought you might happen to 
recall. A. No, sir. 

REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT BREAKS ENGLAND'S 
MONOPOLY ON IRISH TRADE 

Q. Mr. Manly: We got diverted from the shipping question and 
the experience of the Panhandle State Steamship Company. A. We 
have been confronted with this situation in Ireland for quite a num- 
ber of years, that our trade has been the absolute monopoly of 
England, and that at the same time all our harbors on the south and 
west coast have been denuded of shipping; and that such shipping 
trade as we had was almost wholly trade to and from English ports. 
That has been the economic weakness of our situation. For this 
reason we were not in a position to sell in the best market, nor were 
we in a position to buy in the best market. Under the system that 
England had brought about, she was our only market and the only 
place where we could buy such goods as we wanted. We have been 
directing our efforts since the Republican Government was started 
to changing all that. The Government sent its consuls to the differ- 
ent countries. We have consuls in France, Spain, and Italy, Bel- 
gium, and Denmark, and other European countries, as well as in 
the United States of America. And these men have been instructed 
to bring about closer trade relations between those countries and 
Ireland; and they also have been instructed to obtain a market in 
those countries for Irish goods, and to obtain in those countries 
such goods as they can supply and Ireland needs for her own use. 
Furthermore, they have been directed to secure direct shipping be- 
tween those countries and Ireland. 

Q. Senator Norris: That has been done under the new regime? 
A. That has been done under the Republican regime. There has 
been and is now out of New York a good service of freight boats to 
the Irish ports. 



967 

Q. Mr. Manly: Are they American owned? A. They are Amer- 
ican owned, flying the American flag. We expect that during the 
coming months there will be another line out of Boston also to 
the Irish ports. There was an announcement of a second line out 
of New York to Irish ports that appeared in the New York shipping 
and commercial papers two or three weeks ago. Our consul in 
France arranged direct shipments to Ireland, and similar arrange- 
ments have been made from Holland, Spain, and Portugal. We 
have also out of Cork now a direct freight service on American ships 
from Cork to Copenhagen and the Baltic ports. To that extent we 
have, at any rate, broken down the w r all which England had put 
around Ireland; and we have attracted from foreign ports consider- 
able tonnage to our shores. We have got direct some of the foreign- 
produced goods that we needed; and w r e have exported, principally 
to America, goods that otherwise would not have come here. The 
old custom was that our goods would be shipped to England, and 
would be shipped from there as English goods. Due to the absence 
of an Irish department of customs, we have no records of our trade 
with foreign countries. 

BRITISH INTERFERENCE WITH AMERICAN 
FREIGHT SERVICE TO IRISH PORTS 

Our work now is in breaking virgin soil. I am very pleased to 
say that the service between American ports and Irish ports has 
been successful; and I think that that service is as financially suc- 
cessful as that of any other service to Europe from this country. 
I can put before you figures showing the growth of that trade month 
after month for the past twelve months. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Are those passenger boats? A. Those 
are freight boats, in which we are much more interested than in 
passenger boats. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Are they allowed to land in Ireland? 
I thought there was some regulation about that. A. Yes, I was 
coming to that in a minute. Freight boats have been permitted, I 
might say, to clock by the British authorities; but not a single one 
of those boats has avoided interference by the British authorities at 
the Irish ports. From the very first boat to the last boat that has 
gone there, every one has been subjected to some interference by 
the British authorities at the Irish ports. 

Q. Senator Norris: Don't you think that after this trade de- 
velops, as it gives promise to, that the British Government will 
interfere with those boats landing directly at an Irish port? A. 
She will go as far as she can to prevent this service becoming a 
permanent one. 

Q. She may let up on you a while, and then pay her debts out of 
shipping profits, and then come back on you again. A. Every one 



968 

of those ships has been raided by the authorities, ostensibly looking 
for arms and ammunition and secret dispatches and "undesirables." 

Q. Do not those things have a tendency to interfere with the 
trade, and may, if carried on, prevent the trade entirely? A. Yes, 
it is an indication of what is coming. And it has this effect, that it 
makes it very onerous for the individual seaman going into an Irish 
port to have his person and his possessions searched by the British 
Government. Every one of these seamen has his possessions and 
his cabin and his person searched by the British officials. 

Q. They do not even stop with that, according to some of our 
witnesses. 1 A. They have even mounted machine guns on one of 
these ships, and they would not allow the cargo to be unloaded or 
the captain to land for a time. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Those were relief supplies, were they not? A. 
Part of the cargo consisted of relief supplies. 

BRITISH ADMIRALTY PROHIBITS AMERICAN 
PASSENGER SERVICE TO CORK 

England has not so far prevented the freight trade. She has pre- 
vented, however, passenger vessels flying the American flag putting 
into Cork harbor. It was announced early in the year that passen- 
ger boats built in a Philadelphia yard and flying the American flag 
were to be routed on the Atlantic, some of them out of New York 
and some others of them out of Boston, for European ports, calling 
at Cork harbor. It is a very remarkable fact that while that first 
boat was on the ocean, with passengers, freight and mails, the 
British Admiralty issued an order prohibiting her and prohibiting 
other ships on the eastbound voyage to call at Cork harbor. Before 
that there had not been any such prohibition, because the only ships 
calling at Cork harbor were British vessels. But here was an Amer- 
ican vessel desiring to cater to the needs of American citizens who 
want to go to Ireland and of Irish citizens coming to America; and 
the English step in with an order and say, "You shall not go into 
Cork harbor." A more remarkable thing is that some two weeks 
before that ship sailed, a dispatch was sent by the correspondent 
of and appeared in the London Daily Chronicle, which is Mr. Lloyd 
George's paper, announcing that those ships were going, and stating 
that the representatives of the While Star and Cunard and other 
English lines here were wondering whether or not this "foreign" 
ship would be allowed into Cork harbor. That was several days 
before the first ship sailed. Here is the dispatch from the Daily 
Chronicle of September 3, 1920. It is headed, "New Competition 
With British Companies," and is from their special correspondent: 



1 See testimony of Emil Pezolt. 



969 

"New York, Thursday. 

"For the first time since August, 1914, a passenger liner from the 
United States will arrive in London this month. She is the Panhandle 
State, and her voyage will mark the inauguration of the United States 
Mail Steamship Company's competition with the Cunard and White 
Star lines. The company is negotiating with the old North German- 
Lloyd an agreement similar to that recently concluded between the 
American Ship and Commerce Corporation and the Hamburg-Amer- 
ican Line, whereby the docking facilities and routes of the German 
concern all over the world will, be placed at the American company's 
disposal. (The Witness: Mark the phrasing of that!) 

"The Panhandle State, — a nickname given to Texas because its 
shape is that of a frying-pan with its handle, — is advertised to sail 
from New York on September 18th for Queenstown, Boulogne, and 
London. She is the first transatlantic liner to be built in America v 
in 20 years, and is of 13,500 gross tons. She is luxuriously fitted up 
for first-class passengers only. 

QUEENSTOWN PROBLEM 
"Shipping circles point out that, in accordance with the present 
British regulations, the Cunard and White Star liners have eliminated 
Queenstown on their eastbound voyages, although they are permitted 
to call there on their way to America. Officials of those lines are 
wondering whether vessels under foreign flags will be privileged to 
land passengers at the Irish port." 

The Witness: That message was sent from New York, and ap- 
peared in the London Daily Chronicle on September 3. The boat 
sailed on September 18, and was prohibited entry into Cork harbor. 
No American passenger steamer on that route has been permitted to 
call at Cork harbor. 

Q. Senator Norris: Cork harbor is Queenstown? The dispatch 
says Queenstown. A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: This is a matter on which the Com- 
mission needs light. I gather from what you have already said that, 
in spite of obstacles, the Republican Government has already done 
constructive work. Perhaps you can outline that for us. Those are 
the things that especially interest the Commission. 

REPRESSION OF FOREIGN TRADE WITH IRELAND 
A CONTINUOUS BRITISH POLICY 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I would like to ask one question. 
Could the British Government prevent a boat landing at Cork harbor 
if it were not under martial law, — under war-time rule? A. That is 
a question for your State Department to answer. 

Q. I mean, could the British Government dictate in general what 
boats could land in Ireland, or is it a part of the punitive policy of 
the Government towards Ireland now? A. That is a question of 
International Law that I cannot answer, but I understand that within 
the three-mile limit the Government is in power, and the Govern- 
ment can say what boats they will admit or will not admit within 
those limits. • 



970 

Q. That has been done before, has it not? A. \es, we have 
been crippled and* prevented from developing commercially and 
economically by English navigation laws and other repressive legis- 
lation on a good many occasions in our history. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Mr. Consul, at the time this regulation was 
passed, Cork harbor was not under martial law? A. No, it was not. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: But I meant under war-time regula- 
tions. A. I may say, on the shipping proposition, that the British 
Government has sent out certain announcements that the Irish Coast 
is not safe for shipping, with a view to keeping shipping out of those 
ports. On the 27th of October there appeared in the issue of the 
New York Times of that day a news item under a Baltimore date 
line headed: "Warn Ships Off Ireland; Admiralty Says Navigation 
Guides Are Not Reliable There." The news item cited a notice 
prominently posted in the marine room of the Baltimore Customs 
House for the benefit of outbound mariners: 

"I have to report that an announcement is made by the Admiralty 
(British) to the effect that too much reliance should not be placed 
upon the maintenance of fog signals and lights on the coast of Ire- 
land. The Admiralty also calls attention to the fact that there is a 
liability of these aids to navigation being discontinued on the coast of 
Ireland without any warning whatever." 

The Witness : That is a very serious announcement, and I sent a 
letter to the Harbor Commissioners of Cork, and here is their answer: 

"I am directed by my Commissioners to refer to your letters oi 
15th and 16th November, with reference to the following British 
Admiralty notice to mariners, extracted from the Dublin Gazette of 
( )ctober 3rd last : 

'"NOTICE TO MARINERS 

"'Much reliance is not to be placed on lights and fog signals along 
the Irish coast, as they are liable to be discontinued temporarily with- 
out warning.' 

and in reply to state that as far as my Commissioners and their offi- 
cials can ascertain, no shipping, either Irish, British, American, or 
foreign, has avoided the Irish coast or Irish ports on account of this 
warning notice. 

"There is no danger whatever over normal conditions to shipping 
frequenting the Irish coast or Irish ports ; and as far as Cork harbor 
is concerned, its approaches, anchorages, and wharves are absolutely 
safe. The only vessels prohibited (by a British Government order) 
from calling at this port are, as far as we are aware, eastbound 
passenger transatlantic liners." 
The Witness: I have sent this out to all the maritime boards here. 

BRITISH ORDER PRACTICALLY BLOCKADES 
IRISH PORTS 

Only this week there appeared in the press here the following, 

sent out from London on January 11: 

"The mysterious announcement bv the Admiralty, believed to refer 
specifically to Irish ports, notifying masters to watch carefully for 
the discontinuance without warning of light and fog signals along the 
Irish coast, is still in force, the Admiralty announced today." 



971 

It may be necessary, the statement adds, to forbid all entrance to 
certain ports. This is believed to apply specifically to Irish ports. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Is that ever justified under any code 
of martial law, except in the case of actual war? It practically 
means that there is war in Ireland. A. Yes, that is practically an 
acknowledgment of the existence of a state of war. 

Q. That is practically a blockade. A. It is. 

Q. As a matter of fact, has the British Government a right to 
make such an order? A. Well, the British Navy is still afloat. 

Q. But it is going to be disarmed. A. In Mr. Asquith's phrase, 
"Wait and see." 

AMERICA'S GROWING TRADE WITH IRELAND 

May I briefly give you the totals of the trade with Ireland in the 
eleven months since those ships began to run, as compared with the 
preceding eleven months? The value of direct trade between Amer- 
ica and Ireland: During 1919, America imported from Ireland, for 
the eleven months, $11,797,896 worth of goods. The following year, 
1920, America imported from Ireland $36,605,809 worth of goods. 
America exported to Ireland in 1919 goods valued at $30,775,879; 
in 1920, $41,331,371. That shows you the enormous expansion in 
the direct trade between the two countries following the inauguration 
of this shipping service. 

Q. Chairman Wood: How are those trade balances you name 
settled? They indicate that in normal times the rate of exchange 
would be in your favor. A. Under normal conditions in Irish 
trade, we sell more than we buy. The rate of exchange would be in 
our favor. The pound — if we had the sterling currency — would buy 
far more than the English pound. But because of the political con- 
nection with England, and because of the fact that our Republican 
Government is not recognized, we are in this position, that the pound 
today will not buy eight shillings' worth, while the pound in 1914 
would buy twenty shillings' worth. 

FUNCTIONS OF IRISH REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT 

Now, as to the functions of the Government. That is the last thing 
you wanted information about. I will put on record, if I may, an 
extract from the official request made to the United States Govern- 
ment for recognition of the Irish Republican Government. This sets 
forth the different departments of government established in Ireland. 
(Reading) : 

"The Government of the Republic of Ireland is conducted under 
the central administration of a cabinet consisting of the president 
and ministers of state for home and for foreign affairs, for national 
defense, for finance, for local government, for industries, for labor, 
for agriculture, and for education, with supplemental directors of 



972 

trade and commerce, of fisheries, of forestry, and of information. 
Each of these departments is now actively functioning, and has been 
so functioning without interruption since April, 1919. 

"The Minister for Foreign Affairs is prosecuting Ireland's claim 
for recognition as a sovereign and independent state through a num- 
ber of diplomatic missions to foreign peoples and governments. The 
Minister of Defense has organized a disciplined army of Volunteers, 
which is being equipped. The Minister of Finance has floated a con- 
siderable loan, both domestic and foreign, for the general purposes 
of the government, in particular for the economic development of the 
country. The confidence reposed in the Republican Government by 
the people of Ireland is evidenced by the fact that the domestic loan 
was over-subscribed by one-half. We asked for £250,000 from the 
Irish people, and they gave us £370,000. 

"The Minister of Local Government coordinates the work of the 
municipal and rural councils, and controls through these democrati- 
cally elected bodies the administration of all the local affairs of the 
nation. The Minister of Industries and the Director of Trade and 
Commerce have caused a survey of Ireland's economic resources to be 
made, with a view to their proper utilization, along cooperative lines, 
for the benefit of the nation ; and they are developing closer trade 
relations with foreign countries through the consular service. The 
Ministry of Labor is particularly concerned with the advancement of 
schemes for the proper housing of the workers, the question of unem- 
ployment, and the arbitrament of industrial disputes." 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: May I interrupt here to ask if it is 
true that the Dail Eireann adopted a program similar to that of the 
so-called Bishops' Program here in the United States? A. I con- 
fess I do not know. I have not read that program. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: The minimum wage and eight-hour 
proposition. A. I can submit to you later the actual decrees made 
by Dail Eireann. (Continues reading) : 

"The Minister of Agriculture has organized a Land Bank to finance 
the agricultural industry of the country. Through the agency of this 
bank several large grass ranches have been divided into economic 
holdings, and allotted to farmers and laborers cooperatively organ- 
ized. The Ministry actively aided the Director of Forestry in insti- 
tuting an Arbor Day movement for the planting of waste lands 
throughout the country. The Minister for Home Affairs has organ- 
ized a national judiciary, — civil and criminal courts, the only courts, 
except the British courts-martial, now functioning in Ireland ; and a 
police court. The rulings of the Land Courts on the intricate ques- 
tions arising out of the land problem have brought about a cessation 
of the land unrest endemic in certain parts of Ireland in recent years. 
The Department of Education is promoting a general scheme of 
national education, and has taken over, and now directly controls, 
certain technical and other educational institutions. 

"The Fisheries Department is attending to the special needs of the 
fishing industry. A chain of cooperative societies has been formed 
amongst deep-sea fishermen, and the Department is aiding these socie- 
ties financially to secure motor-driven boats, and essential equipment. 
Its inspectors see that the necessary technical knowledge is made 
available for those employed in the curing and marketing of the fish. 
The other Departments similarly promote the national interests di- 
rectly in their charge, working in close association with all interested 
in their respective spheres. 



973 

CONSTRUCTIVE LEGISLATIVE AND JUDICIAL 
FUNCTIONS 

"The functioning of the Republican Government is seen in its legis- 
lative acts and in the obedience rendered to them. Both the English 
Government, through Dublin Castle, and the Irish Republican Legis- 
lature are issuing laws and decrees. But the laws and regulations 
of Dublin Castle are purely repressive and destructive, and are prin- 
cipally honored in the breach ; whereas the laws of the Irish Legisla- 
ture are constructive and are observed. One hundred fifty thousand 
soldiers cannot enforce English laws upon an unwilling population, 
whereas the force of public opinion has served to obtain a nearly full 
measure of obedience for Ireland's own laws. 

"The administration of justice and the maintenance of civil order 
is another test of actual government. That Irish courts administer 
justice to the practical exclusion of the English courts is now a 
matter of universal knowledge. When the Lord Mayor of Cork, 
now dead in an English jail, was arrested, he was presiding at a 
court of the Republic adjudicating in a case in which an English 
insurance company was the plaintiff. 

BRITISH GOVERNMENT IN IRELAND "ALMOST 

NON-EXISTENT" 

"Thus the Government of the Republic is functioning, and claims 
recognition not only because it is the legitimate and rightful govern- 
ment of the Irish people, the only government with the democratic 
sanction of the consent of the governed, but also because it is also 
the actual government in Ireland. The rival British Government in 
Ireland has been declared, even by Lord Grey, to be almost 'non- 
existent.' Referring to the 'helplessness' of the British authority in 
Ireland, he said recently that British authority 'has apparently 
ceased.' " 

REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT DEVELOPS MEAT- 
PACKING INDUSTRY 

In amplification of that little cursory statement, I would like to 
supplement it very briefly with some of these things. I referred, 
earlier in my remarks, to the non-economic traffic in live stock. The 
Director of Trade and Commerce has taken measures to organize 
and establish on cooperative lines a large meat-dressing plant at 
Waterford. The farmers of the district abutting on that city and 
port have already subscribed almost one and one-half million dollars 
cooperatively for that plant. We had hece in this country within 
the past two months a delegation from that cooperative committee at 
Waterford interviewing possible managers of the plant, and looking 
up architects and experts in the laying out of meat packing plants. 
Everything is in order to erect that large meat dressing plant at 
Waterford, and alongside of it to have a tanning industry to treat the 
hides, and a fertilizer plant to deal with the offals. This is one of 
the schemes undertaken by the Republican Government for the de- 
velopment of Ireland. 1 

1 This promising undertaking has since been thwarted by the British 
forces in Ireland See evidence, pp. 985-989. 



974 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: Speaking of meats, did the Republi- 
can Government put an embargo on the shipment of meats and pork 
products? A. Yes, at one time during the war. 

Q. Which was effective? ,A. It was effective. 

DECREE OF REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT STOPS 
LAND LITIGATION 

Now, as to the official decrees of the Dail. You may be interested 
to see one of the official acts of the Dail. It is bi-lingual, in Irish 
and in English. This one here is in regard to the land question. It 
is rather interesting. It is headed, "Proclamation. Claims to Land: 
Dairy, Agricultural, and Residential Holdings." (Reading) : 

"Whereas, it has come to our knowledge that claims have been and 
are being made in various parts of the country to farms and holdings 
which are being used and worked by the occupiers as dairy, agricul- 
tural, and residential holdings, and that such claims are being based 
nil the assertion that the claimants or their ancestors were formerly 
in occupation of the property so claimed; and 

"Whereas, these claims are, for the most part, of old date; and 
while many of them may be well founded, others seem to be of a 
frivolous nature, and are put forward in the hope of intimidating 
the present occupiers ; 

"Now it is decreed by Dail Eireann in session assembled : 

"(1) That the present time, when the Irish people are locked in 
a Iife-and-death struggle with their traditional enemy, is ill-chosen for 
the stirring up of strife amongst our fellow-countrymen; and that 
all our energies must be, directed towards the clearing out, not the 
occupier (if this' or that piece of land, but the foreign invader of our 
country : 

"(2) That pending the international recognition of the Republic, 
no claims of the kind referred to shall be heard or determined by the 
courts of the Republic unless by written license of the Minister for 
Home Affairs; 

"(3) That in the meanwhile claimants may file particulars of 
their claims with the Registrar of the District Court in which the 
property is situate. 

"And it is further decreed that any person or persons who persists 
or persist in pressing forward a disputed claim of the nature above 
referred to shall do so in the knowledge that such action is a breach 
of this Decree; 

"And it is ordered that the forces of the Republic be used to protect 
the citizens against the adoption of high-handed methods by any such 
person or persons. 

"By order of Dai! Eireann, this 29th day of June, 1920." 

REPUBLICAN GOVERNMENT RESTRICTS 
EMIGRATION 

The Witness: Here is an order restricting emigration from Ire- 
land; and this also shows you the outlook of the men at home. 
(Reading) : 



975 



"PROCLAMATION: EMIGRATION FROM IRELAND 

"Whereas, it has come to our knowledge that a number of nun of 
military age and other citizens of the Republic are leaving Ireland; and 

"Whereas, Ireland cannot spare any of her children at the presenl 
jucture; 

"Now it is hereby ordered that after the date of this Proclamation 
no citizen of the Irish Republic shall be permitted to leave Ireland 
for the purpose of settling abroad unless with the written sanction 
of the Government of the Republic. Applications for permits must 
be made to the Secretary of State for Home Affairs. Each applica- 
tion must set out: (1) name of applicant; (2) his or her address; 
(3) place of birth; (4) date of birth; (5) date of proposed departure; 
(6) country of destination; (7) proposed period of absence; (8) rea- 
sons for emigrating. Every application must be authenticated by a 
justice and the Registrar of the District Court for the district in 
which the applicant resides. Applications by soldiers of the Irish 
Republican Army should set out particulars of their companies, bat- 
talions, and brigades, and should be authenticated and recommended 
by the Brigade Commandant in each case. All applications must be 
accompanied by a certificate of the birth or baptism of the applicant. 

"By order of Dail Eireann this 24th day of July, 1920." 

The Witness: Lord French proclaimed that there are 200,000 too 
many young men in Ireland and suggested emigration as a cure. 
Dail Eireann decreed that these young men must remain in Ireland. 



REPUBLICAN DECREES FOR CONSERVATION 
AND DEVELOPMENT OF IRISH RESOURCES 

I will give the names of just a few additional decrees: A Decree 
for a National Arbor Day for Afforestation; Fisheries: Financial 
Assistance, and the Appointment of a National Inspector of Fish- 
eries; the establishment of a National Civil Service, embracing em- 
ployes of all elected bodies. Down to very recently, the brains of 
Ireland was going into the English civil service; the young men who 
passed through the secondary schools in Ireland and who could tio1 
go on to the university to get a profession were recruited for the 
English civil service, and not only occupied positions in Ireland, but 
in England, Egypt, and India. And we felt that Irish brains should 
be used, not for the buttressing up of the British Empire, but for the 
building up of Ireland. We are endeavoring to provide an incentive 
whereby the youth of Ireland will not leave the country, but will 
have ambition to remain in their own country. A Commission of In- 
quiry to inquire into the industrial resources of the country, to find 
out the potentialities and possibilities of development, was appointed 
by Dail Eireann. From the date it began until its recent sittings, the 
British Government used every effort to prevent its holding public 



' 976 

sessions. They took possession of certain of its members physically, 
so that they could not attend meetings. They have occupied build- 
ings where it was to sit. They have seized its records. Yet despite 
all this, the Commission has gone on the even tenor of its way and 
taken surveys of the industrial resources of the country. And I have 
in my hand the first survey it has published. 

Chairman Wood: We should be glad to have it. 

The Witness: I can leave it with you. I want to give you a decree 
on housing and fixing a minimum rent. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: You mean a decree on maximum rent. 

JUDICIARY AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS 
ESTABLISHED 

A. I will come across the actual decree in a moment. (Reading 
titles of decrees) : "That courts of Justice and Equity be estab- 
lished; and that the Ministry be empowered when they deem fit to 
establish courts having criminal jurisdiction"; "That a Department 
for the collection of Income Tax be instituted by Dail Eireann, and 
that all persons who pay the income tax to that Department which 
otherwise they would pay to the British Government be indemnified 
against losses caused by distraint or otherwise; in agreed circum- 
stances discretionary power being given to the Dail Income Tax De- 
partment to refuse such taxes as it deems inadvisable to accept." 
"That a commission of experts be set up to inquire into the possi- 
bility of carrying on local administration without financial aid from 
the English Government, to report as to reforms and economies in 
local administration, and particularly in the Poor Law system, that 
would enable councils to meet altered financial conditions." That, 
of course, has to do with the withholding of grants by the English 
Local Government Board. This is a decree that the imposition of 
political or religious tests as a condition of industrial employment 
in Ireland is declared illegal, and that action be taken to prevent 
such tests being imposed. 

DECREE RESTRICTING INCREASE OF RENT 

And this is the decree restricting increase of rent. (Reading 
decree) : 

"No landlord of any dwelling house shall compel a tenant to quit 
his holding or terminate or refuse to renew the tenancy of any tenant 
if the tenant shall pay a reasonable increase of rent. A 'reasonable 
increase of rent' shall mean an amount calculated at the rate of 6 per 
cent, per annum on the expenditure on the improvement or structural 
alteration of the dwelling house, not including expenditure on decora- 
tion or repairs ; and in addition an increase in th# amount payable by 



977 

the landlord in respect of rates over the rates paid in respect of the 
corresponding period which included the third of August, 1914. In 
further addition where the landlord is responsible for the whole of 
the external and sanitary repairs, an amount not exceeding IS per 
cent, on the net rent. The expression 'net rent' means, where the 
tenant paid the rates, the rent at which the premises were let on the 
third of August, 1914; or where the premises were not let on that 
date, the rent at which they were last let before that date; or in the 
case of premises first let after said date, the rent at which they were 
first let ; and where the landlord paid the rates, the said rent less the 
amount of such rates. 

"That pending further legislation, the Secretary of State for Home 
Affairs, with the approval of the Ministry, be empowered to make 
such regulations as the Ministry shall deem fit to carry out the pro- 
visions of this decree." 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: How do you carry out such legisla- 
tion, solely by moral pressure? A. You forget, sir, that we have 
our courts functioning. 

Q. And you have your police force? A. Our police force and 
our local authorities. 

Q. Senator Norris: But your courts operate in secret. A. 
Chairman Wood: But they have the force of public opinion behind 
them. They have the popular support of almost 90 per cent, of the 
people. 

Q. Commissioner Thomas: There is British machinery left, is 
there not? A. 0, yes, if you want to employ it. 

Q. Well, suppose I was hard-hearted, as some landlords are, and 
went to the British courts and got a decree for an increase of rent. 
A. That would be an act of treason to the Republic, and would be 
punished accordingly. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: It is not a bad act. I think we shall 
have to get something of that kind. 

Commissioner Howe: In Pennsylvania? 

Commissioner Maurer: Yes. 

RELIGIOUS LEGISLATION PROHIBITED 

The Witness: This is a decree forbidding religious legislation. 

"It is hereby decreed that the Ministry of Home Affairs be em- 
powered to make orders from time to time declaring that any par- 
ticular act or acts of the British Parliament or orders thereunder, or 
any parts of such acts or orders, being clearly motivated by a religious 
or political animosity to the Irish people, or repugnant to the Repub- 
lican Government or to Irish ideals, shall not be recognized by the 
Irish Republic, and shall not be applied in the law courts of the 
Republic ; and that on making any such order the Ministry may make 
any consequential orders which may be deemed necessary or ex- 
pedient." 

NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL FORMED 

The Witness: Here is the formulation by decree of a National 
Economic Council consisting of nominated and elected elements; 



978 

elected elements comprising representatives of various organized 
economic interests, such as Labor, Agriculture (Farmers' Unions, 
etc.), Cooperative Societies, and representatives of some of the local 
public bodies. The duties of the Council shall be to examine and 
report on all current economic questions referred to it by the Dail 
or the Cabinet, and generally to advise the Republican Government 
in regard to economic policy; and by providing a common ground 
for representatives of various economic interests, and by promoting 
negotiations between them, to secure agreements and joint action 
which will safeguard national interests. 

Commissioner Thomas: That is pretty good. 

The Witness: And. here is a decree setting up a National Land 
Commission for the purpose of carrying the land settlement schemes 
of the Dail into effect. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: I just want to ask a question after lis- 
tening to your laws and regulations. You said something about 
your having issued a decree that there should be no young men leave 
Ireland. That does not mean that no one can get into Ireland, if 
there is a fellow like myself, about my age, that would want to get 
there? I think it would be a pretty good country to go to after 
awhile. A. If you will come to me, you will have no difficulty in 
arranging your passport after awhile. 

Commissioner Thomas: He might even show you the way to get 
there. 

The Witness: If there is any other information I can give you 
gentlemen, I should be glad to give it. 

Chairman Wood: We appreciate it very much. And if at any 
future time we need further information along this line, we want to 
call on you. 

The Commission will adjourn until tomorrow at ten o'clock. 

(Adjournment 5:50 P. M.) 



SIXTH HEARINGS 

ON CONDITIONS IN IRELAND 

Session Two 

Before the Commission sitting in the Hotel LaFayette, \\ ashington, 
D. C, Friday, January 21, 1921. 9:50 A. M. 

Commissioner Addams I presiding I : We will open our session this 
morning. Our first witness is Miss Louie Bennett, of Ireland. 

TESTIMONY OF MISS LOUIE BENNETT 

Q. Miss Bennett, will you please give your name and address? 
A. My name is Louie Bennett. I live ten miles out of Dublin. 1 
work in Dublin. 

Q. What is your occupation, Miss Bennett? A. I am secretary 
of the Irish Women Workers' Union. 

Q. We have asked the witnesses their religion. I don't know why 
we have fallen into that practice. What is yours? A. Protestant. 

Q. And your family has been a Protestant family? A. Yes, a 
Protestant family, and Unionists. 

TWO LINES OF CONFLICT 

Q. Now, Miss Bennett, you know the purpose of our inquiry, 
and we want to get the situation as clearly as possible before us. 
And if you will, just give us the important tacts about the situation. 
A. I represent, as you know, Miss Addams, the Irish Women's Inter- 
national League, which is fundamentally a pacifist organization. 
And it is the desire of my Committee that we lay before you and 
place emphasis particularly on the efforts which the Irish people 
have made to develop their own national life and to follow their own 
government, Dail Eireann, rather than to concentrate on any of the 
physical force activities which have taken place in Ireland. You 
see, there are going on at the present time two lines of conflict: there 
is the conflict between the Irish Government, the Dail. and the 
British Government, along what one might call civil lines; and 
there is also the physical conflict, the conflict between the two 
armies. And we thought it would be interesting to lay before your 
Commission facts in regard to the way in which the British Govern- 
ment have tried to block all the efforts of the Irish to establish or 
carry on industry, and to carry on their own local councils — the 
administration of their county and local councils, and to carry on 
their own courts — courts of law as established by the Dail. 

979 



080 

THE IRISH INDUSTRIAL INQUIRY COMMISSION 

If the Commission wish, I propose to deal with those subjects, and 
to take up first the industrial question. And I had given me by 
Mr. Darrell Figgis, who is Minister for Industry in the Dail — the 
Irish Parliament, I had given me by him a statement with regard to 
his Commission, the Industrial Inquiry Commission which he or- 
ganized — an inquiry into the industrial conditions and resources of 
Ireland. And if the Commission wish, I would read that statement. 

Commissioner Addams: We would be very glad to have it. 

The Witness (Reading) : 

"Notes Respecting the Work of the Commission of Inquiry into 
the Resources and Industries of Ireland, and the 
Attempts to Hinder This Work. 
"The Commission was established in September, 1919, by the Gov- 
ernment of Ireland with the following terms of reference : 

" 'To inquire into the national resources and the present condi- 
tion of manufacture and production, and industries in Ireland, and 
to consider and report by what means these natural resources may 
be more fully developed, and how these industries may be encour- 
aged and extended.' 
"It will be seen that the work consigned to the Commission was of 
great magnitude and importance. Men representative of science, in- 
dustry, as well as men not immediately concerned either with industry 
or science but of public standing, were called together to undertake 
this work. The invitations extended took cognizance only of their 
qualifications for this work, and made no inquiry as to what might 
be their political opinions. It therefore happened that the personnel 
of the Commission of Inquiry comprised men representing many 
shades and colors of political thought. Mr. Darrell Figgis was in- 
vited to undertake the office of secretary, and accepted the invitation. 

SPECIAL COMMITTEES ON FOOD AND POWER 

"At its first meeting, held in the Mansion House, Dublin, it was 
recognized that the task outlined was of considerable magnitude. It 
was indeed a task such as had not been committed to any single body 
in any state among the nations of the world; and the complexity of 
the subjects needing inquiry was added to by the systematic neglect 
of industrial inquiry by the usurping government of the country. The 
Commission, therefore, decided to approach its inquiry in detail; de- 
cided to set aside certain subjects for later examination; and at once 
to prosecute inquiries into the two subjects of outstanding importance. 
The two subjects so outlined were food and power. Special com- 
mittees were appointed to deal with each of these two subjects. Hugh 
Ryan, D. S. C, Professor of Chemistry at the National University, 
Dublin, was appointed chairman of the Power Committee. Thomas 
Johnson, Secretary of the Irish Trades Congress, was appointed chair- 
man of the Food Committee. These two committees further sub- 
divided their subjects. The Food Committee decided to deal im- 
mediately with Milk and Milk Products, Meat and Meat Products, 
and Fisheries, seaboard and inland ; and to leave certain other subjects 
of its inquiry for later investigations. The Power Committee divided 
its subjects according to the commodities from which power may be 
derived, whether coal, peat, industrial alcohol, or water. 

"At the end of that year the Commission began to hear evidence 



981 

in public session on each of the above subjects at the City Hall, 
Dublin. It was rumored that the Crown Forces would attempt arbi- 
trarily to prevent these public sessions. Steps were therefore taken 
to secure necessary publicity in other countries as to such action, and 
the result was that these public sessions were held without interfer- 
ence. 

CROWN FORCES SEEK TO SUPPRESS COMMISSION 

"Early the following year the Commission moved down to the City 
of Cork to continue its public sessions there. On its arrival in that 
city the secretary was informed that sessions, whether public or pri- 
vate, of the Commission of Inquiry would not be permitted, and 
would be broken up by force if necessary. The secretary replied that 
he could not receive any verbal message of this kind, and requested 
that the information be given him in writing signed by a proper 
authority, when he would take due cognizance of it. This request 
was refused. The Lord Mayor and the Corporation of the city had 
invited the Commission of Inquiry to hold its session in the Council 
Chamber of the City Hall. On proceeding to the City Hall the fol- 
lowing morning, however, this building was found in possession of 
the Crown Forces, armed with carbines, who violently prevented both 
commissioners and witnesses entering its precincts. Arrangements, 
however, had been made in view of this possibility, and the Commis- 
sion, together with its witnesses, who included some of the most 
prominent citizens of the city, proceeded to the School of Art. It 
sat in session there during the morning. During this session police 
forces entered and attempted to eject the Commission. The commis- 
sioners refused to withdraw, and the Crown Forces withdrew. On its 
return to the School of Art it found this building also occupied by 
Crown Forces. It then proceeded with its witnesses to the Council 
Chamber of the County Council at the Court House, and sat in session 
there until a late hour at night. Crown Forces attempted to enter this 
Council Chamber, but, witnesses all being present, the precaution had 
been taken of bolting and barring the doors, and therefore it was 
possible to complete this session. 

"The following morning advice was brought to the secretary that 
every public building in the city was occupied by Crown Forces. 
Witnesses were, therefore, brought into the hotel, and the session 
proceeded in the Commission's own private room at the hotel. In 
the early afternoon, however, the manager of the hotel informed the 
secretary that the local commander of the Crown Forces had just 
informed him that if the Commission were permitted by him to con- 
tinue any longer with its session, he would break into the hotel and 
break up the session by force. The manager therefore requested the 
secretary of the Commission to suspend its session, as such a proceed- 
ing would cause great inconvenience to his guests. The commis- 
sioners, therefore, accompanied still by their witnesses, proceeded by 
a back way to a private house, and there completed its day's work 
while the Crown Forces were hunting for it through the city." 

Q. Major Newman: May I interrupt you just a moment, Miss 
Bennett? What was the date of this inquiry? A. September, 
1919. It was on. of course, for a considerable time. 

Q. And just what was the Commission? A. An inquiry into 
the industrial resources of Ireland. 

Q. Yes, but the Commission had its origin — it was appointed by 
whom. A. By the Dail Eireann Parliament. Mr. Darrell Figgis, 
the secretary of the Commission, is a member of the Dail. (Con- 
tinues reading) : 



982 

"The following morning the Commission proceeded up a back way 
into the City Hall. Its witnesses on this occasion were to be the 
City Engineer and the Professor of Engineering at Cork University. 
The session was opened, and it continued for nearly an hour before 
the Crown Forces discovered that they had been outwitted. They 
accordingly broke violently into the City Hall and ejected each mem- 
ber of the Commission by force from the building. This section of 
its evidence had, therefore, to be completed at a later date in the 
City of Dublin. For it is to be observed that the Commission has 
never in one single instance deflected from the work it has outlined 
for itself, but has, with no attempt at furtive procedure, completed 
each part of tin- work scheduled by its committees. 

"The" same interference was encountered in the City of Limerick. 
The Mayor of this city is himself a member of the Commission. He, 
in his mayoral chain of office, was to have presided on this occasion, 
but was, with his fellow commissioners, excluded from his own City 
Hall. Nevertheless, at Limerick also the Commission completed every 
part of the work it had undertaken to do in that city. 

"These are only two instances of the attempt by the usurping gov- 
ernment of Ireland to frustrate and bring to naught a purely indus- 
trial and scientific inquiry. On several occasions the Commission has 
been invited to address the County Councils of the country with re- 
gard to its work. Such meetings have been publicly prohibited. On 
one such occasion it happened that the secretary of the Commission 
came in actual danger of his life because of an inquiry into the coal 
resources of one of the coalfields of Ireland concerning which thr 
County Council, in whose administrative area this field occurred, had 
requested to know the result of the special inquiries the Commission 
had conducted as to this field. 

"Recently, at the end of November, 1920, a delegation from the 
Commission proceeded to Buncrana. in the north of Ireland, to hear 
evidence with regard to fisheries. Arrangements had been made for 
this evidence to be heard in the Town Hall. On the morning of the 
day, the Town Hall was occupied by Crown Forces, and the Com- 
mission was forcibly prevented from entering. It happened in this 
case that the leading witness was politically prejudiced against the 
Government dr jure of the country, and expressed himself warmly 
against the interference with such an inquiry. Here also the Commis- 
sion withdrew to its private hotel, and completed all its arrangements 
as scheduled before the Crown Forces were aware of what was 
happening. 

WORK ACHIEVED BY THE COMMISSION 

"The above are some instances of the persistent attempt by the 
usurping government of Ireland to frustrate this purely industrial 
and scientific inquiry. Nevertheless, the Commission has already 
published an interim report on Milk Production, Volume I of its 
Minutes of Evidence, and has in rapid preparation for the press re- 
ports on the Coal Resources of the Country, Industrial Alcohol, Meat, 
Fisheries, and Stud Farms. When these reports are completed, other 
subjects will at once be taken in hand." 

ATTEMPT MADE ON SECRETARY'S LIFE 

The Witness: With regard to the statement here of the secretary 
of the Commission, Mr. Darrell Figgis, being in danger of his life 
on one occasion: he narrowly escaped hanging. The military forces 
broke in on the meeting, and they held a kind of mock trial of Mr. 
Figgis. Colonel Moore was with him. and Colonel Moore got away. 



983 

And they decided to hang him, and they actually sent for the rope, 
and the rope was brought. Meanwhile, Colonel Moore had got 
away and he went to the District Inspector, and he reported to the 
District Inspector that in his opinion Mr. Darrell Figgis was in 
danger of his life because of the actions of those soldiers. And the 
District Inspector went down and stopped it. That was all that 
saved the life of Darrell Figgis. 

Q. Mr. Manly: For the record, Miss Bennett, who was Colonel 
Moore? A. Colonel Moore was a British army officer in his 
youth. He is now an old man about 70 years old, I judge. He used 
to be a dominion home ruler, a Nationalist; but he has gradually 
come around to a Sinn Fein position. 

Q. Does he hold a public office. A. No, he does not. 

INQUIRY ENLISTS SUPPORT OF ALL CLASSES 

Q. There is just another point in that which might be made more 
specific. In that last hearing that was a Unionist witness, was it 
not, who was about to testify? He was prejudiced against the exist- 
ing government? A. Yes, he was prejudiced against the de jure 
government of the country. 

Q. But that means that he was a Unionist witness, or a witness 
opposed to the Republican Government in the country. A. Yes. 
That inquiry caused a great deal of comment, and many witnesses of 
all parties appeared before it. 

Q. The testimony has not at all been confined to witnesses of the 
Irish Republic? A. Not at all. You see, the industrial resources 
interest all kinds of people. They wanted to make it as broad as 
possible, and they had all kinds of witnesses before the Commission. 
I would like to add that this milk report was especially good, and 
this strange situation was recorded: that this report was sold side 
by side with the English Government report on the same subject, at 
a shop called Ponsonby's in Dublin where Government reports 
are sold. And this report, because of the enormous demand for it, 
was sold side by side with the British Government report. 

Q. In the introduction, Miss Bennett, it was said that this Com- 
mission represented all shades of opinion. Can that be made a little 
more specific? Can you name witnesses who were not sympathetic 
with the Irish Republic? A. No, I cannot. You see, I did not 
take part in this inquiry at all. Friends of mine did, but these 
friends were either Nationalists or Sinn Fein — you understand what 
I mean by Nationalists — dominion home rulers? 

Q. Yes, but there were dominion home rulers and there were 
Unionists on the Commission? A. Yes, yes. 

Q. Major Newman: The personnel of the Commission itself, I 
think Mr. Manly meant. 



984 

The Witness (To Mr. Manly) : You mean the Commission itself? 

Mr. Manly. Yes. A. Oh, no, they were all Sinn Fein. It said 
in the introduction, did it not, that all shades of opinion were repre- 
sented in the inquiry? 

Q. Mr. Manly: I thought it said on the Commission. A. It 
says (Reading) : "The invitations extended took cognizance only of 
their qualifications for this work, and made no inquiry as to what 
might be their political opinions. It therefore happened that the 
personnel of the Commission of Inquiry comprised men represent- 
ing many shades and colors of political thought." Well, yes, that 
is what it says. 

SECRETARY OF COMMISSION "ON THE RUN" 

I ought to explain to this Commission that it is extremely difficult 
to get in touch with Mr. Darrell Figgis. He is on the run. I tried 
to get in touch with him, and a friend of mine did, but we did not 
succeed. In Dublin today it is extremely difficult to get in touch 
with people. But the Government has allowed the offices of the 
Commission to remain open. That has not been interfered with. 

Q. Major Newman: Is that in Dublin? A. Yes, in Dublin. 

Mr. Manly: But the Commissioners are on the run? A. Yes, 
that is it. Mr. Darrell Figgis, of course, goes to the office. He goes 
back and forth, and it is very hard to find him. 

SUCCESS BEGETS SUPPRESSION 

Q. Major Newman: I suppose the point of view of the British 
was that this was an activity of Dail Eireann, and therefore a seces- 
sionist activity. A. Yes. Our experience is that when the Crown 
forces begin to see something succeeding, they suppress it then. In 
its initial stages they did not take much notice of it. A witness who 
was testifying before that Commission in its earlier stages, a friend 
of mine, said that word was sent up to her that a detective was stand- 
ing behind her taking notes on what she said. At the first meeting 
in Dublin it was not interfered with. But when it came to be suc- 
cessful and prominent, then they suppressed its activities. And it is 
the general opinion in Ireland that the British Government did not 
wish to give encouragement to any industrial activities which they 
did not undertake themselves. To illustrate that, just lately, Decem- 
ber 11, I think it was, Mr. George Russell — AE. — had an account 
of an attempt to establish a meat-packing industry in Waterford. I 
have the article here if you think it to be of interest to the Com- 
mission. You see, that was deliberately blocked by the British 
Government. And anything of that sort which comes from the 
Irish Homestead, which as you know comes from Plunkett House, 



985 

from the Irish Agricultural Organization Society's headquarters — 
anything that is stated in the Irish Homestead you may take as abso- 
lutely true. Nothing is published for which they cannot give abso- 
lute and accurate evidence. 

NON-POLITICAL CHARACTER OF IRISH AGRI- 
CULTURAL ORGANIZATION SOCIETY 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Mr. George Russell and Sir Horace 
Plunkett work together, do they? A. Yes, sir. The Irish Home- 
stead is the official paper of the Agricultural Society. 

Q. Who are the men who work in that group? A. Mr. R. A. 
Anderson is the secretary. Mr. Coffey has charge of the library, 
and then there is a second secretary, Mr. North ( ?) . 

Q. Plunkett House is not official; it is not connected with the 
Government in any way? A. 0, no, it is not official; purely volun- 
tary. 

Q. Major Newman: Sir Horace Plunkett we know is not a Sinn 
Feiner. Are the other men associated with him Sinn Feiners? A. 
Well, some are and some are not. You know they try to keep 
politics entirely out of their work, and they have succeeded very 
well, because they have men of all shades of poiltical opinion in the 
cooperative movement, as you can understand. Unionists in iU " 
north are in the Irish Agricultural Organization Society, as well as 
Nationalists and Republicans. So it is of very great importance to 
them that. they should keep politics out of their movement altogether. 

BRITISH GOVERNMENT PREVENTS IRISH 
COOPERATIVE MEAT INDUSTRY 

Q. But this case you refer to is of an industry which has been 
prevented, and it was under the auspices of this group? A. No, 
not at all. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: It was the bacon industry that you were 
speaking of, was it not? A. Yes, the bacon industry. Please stop 
me if you think it is not of interest to the Commission. This relates 
to the American Meat Trust, which is endeavoring to operate in 
Ireland. 

Commissioner Howe: That will be doubly interesting. 

The Witness: This is an editorial by George Russell in the Irish 
Homestead for December 11, 1920: 

"A few days ago alarm was expressed officially lest the American 
meat trusts should win complete control over the meat supply of these 
islands. The alarm was natural. A trust is in industry what im- 
perialism is politically. It wants absolute control within its own 
sphere, just as the Caesars, Napoleons, and statesmen with their am- 



986 

bitions without their genius, want to dominate the world. The nature 
of a trust is such that it goes on buying up, amalgamating with, or 
knocking out rivals until there is nothing in its own line of business 
left to oppose it." 

Q. Commissioner Howe : There are no trusts, according to the 
American meat packers. A. Well, perhaps you have a different 
term for what we call trusts. ( Continues reading ) : 

"The alarm felt in Great Britain about American meat companies 
is felt in America about British oil companies, and diplomatic notes 
about oil concerns are already being exchanged, the diplomatists being 
gingered up to the requisite firmness by the big financiers who con- 
trol them." 

The Witness: Is that like an American trust? 
Major Newman: We recognize that. 

Commissioner Howe: There are some Americans who are in jail 
for saying that. 

The Witness (Continuing reading) : 

"We expect within another ten years the big financiers of the old 
and the new world will have brought about another world war, or if 
they do not, it will be prevented only by direct intervention of Provi- 
dence softening hearts, which nothing except a miracle could restore to 
humanity. We need not pursue this anticipation further, as the 
horror of today is sufficient for itself. But since official alarm has 
been expressed about control over the meat supply in these islands by 
American trusts, we. will tell something of the adventures of people 
in Ireland who are trying to establish an Irish control over the Irish 
meat trade, and so prevent any foreign trust coming in. We refer to 
Irish Cooperative Meat, Limited, which, as our readers know, is a 
cooperative society registered under the Industrial and Provident So- 
cieties Act. It is a purely business organization, non-political, and 
non-sectarian. It is being promoted by a committee appointed by the 
cooperative societies and farmers' unions in the counties of Cork, 
Waterford, Kilkenny, Carlow, Tipperary. and Queen's County. The 
chairman is Sir John Keane, Bart., D. S. O., Lieutenant-Colonel of 
His Majesty's Army, and who was a member of the War Office Cost- 
ings Committee. Among the five thousand shareholders admitted _ to 
date are a general, several colonels, majors, captains in the British 
army, together with justices of the peace. We mention these facts 
to show that the organization was purely business, and it was impos- 
sible to suspect the chairman, committee, and shareholders were en- 
gaged in anything but a commendable business enterprise, and not the 
wildest imagination could suppose that these men came together and 
had subscribed over one hundred and fifty thousand pounds for any 
purpose inimical to the British Government. The sole purpose of Irish 
Cooperative Meat, Limited, was to erect a meat and bacon factory 
and cold store, and to carry on under better conditions the trade in 
meat which exists between Ireland and Great Britain. 

POLICE HOLD UP, BEAT, AND THREATEN OR- 
GANIZERS FOR COOPERATIVE FACTORY 

"We now can tell the difficulties under which the organization of 
the society is carried on. It had an organizer in Cork, one in Limerick, 
and two in Tipperary. In August the Limerick organizer, with the 
secretary of the Farmers' Union, were held up at Askeaton by police- 
men, who covered them with revolvers, searched them, and took all 



987 

the documents they had. Alter examining these documents they were 
returned to the two men, and they were ordered out of the town. 
They were given exactly ten minutes to clear out, and they were 
threatened with dire penalties if they were caught there again. When 
they got outside the town darkness came on, and the roads were so 
unsafe, owing to the danger of being shot by military patrols, they 
returned and stayed at Askeaton during the night. On the next day 
the organizer went to Robertstown for a meeting, and while he was 
away the police searched the town and threatened the landlady if the 
organizer of Irish Cooperative Meat was allowed to stay another 
night in the town they would blow her house up. The secretary of 
the Farmers' Union went to meetings at Pallaskenry and Ballysteen. 
He went from these to his own house, and on his way was held up 
by men in uniform, who knocked him on the head, broke his cycle, 
and he was forced to walk home in this condition eight miles, and 
was in bed for ten days from the effects of the treatment he received. 
The Limerick organizer reported that he could hold no further meet- 
ings in the county. The Cork organizer reported a similar state of 
things there, and that it was unsafe for him to travel by road. At 
Castletownroche, where a big meeting was held, the farmers decided 
each to take shares and to send the money individually instead of 
hand both over to a treasurer, as was usual, as it would not be safe 
to make any collection of money in the district. The reason given for 
this was the raids by military and the allegations that sums of money 
were taken in these raids from persons whose houses were raided. 
The burnings of cooperative creameries have also had a very deter- 
rent effect on the project. The organizer reports : 'The chief reason 
which I find keeps people from investing is the burning of creameries 
and the danger of something similar happening in Waterford to this 
project.' Naturally, when cooperative creameries are being attacked, 
wrecked and burned, when factories owned by English companies at 
Balbriggan, and other factories owned by persons of irreproachable 
politics at Mallow and elsewhere were burned, even the possession of 
a cooperative directorate of irreproachable character for the Irish 
Cooperative Meat, Limited, might not save it. We quote from the 
letter of a farmer in Waterford to show how this feeling operates: 
'Owing to the destruction of cooperative stores and creameries, I de- 
cline to take any share in your Cooperative Meat, Limited, and I 
therefore request my name to be removed off the list of shareholders.' 
5 ». i •*■■•> ■%. | 

BRITISH GOVERNMENT REFUSES TO PROTECT A 
LEGITIMATE IRISH INDUSTRY 

"All these facts were communicated to Sir Hamar Greenwood, by 
order of the committee, and he was asked to reply definitely to the 
following questions : 'Is the policy of the Government opposed to the 
organization of these cooperative enterprises? Will the Government 
give an undertaking that our organizers and those attending meetings 
in connection with this project will not be interfered with in future by 
your forces? Is it possible, should the factory be erected and 
equipped, to get any reliable guarantee that it will not be destroyed 
by the forces of the Crown; or, if destroyed in this manner, will the 
Government guarantee adequate compensation?' To this reasonable 
request, on the 28th September a reply was received acknowledging 
the letter and repudiating on the part of the Chief Secretary any idea 
that the policy of the Crown was in any way antagonistic to the 
development of cooperative enterprises, and a further communication 
was promised with regard to the several points raised in the letter. 
On the 30th September another letter was addressed to the Chief 
Secretary pointing nut that thousands of farmers in the south of 
Ireland could not distinguish between the Government and the acts of 



988 



its servants, and when cooperative creameries were being destroyed 
it would be futile to risk a quarter of a million of money on the 
Waterford enterprise. Along with this letter the secretary of Irish 
Cooperative Meat, Limited, inclosed letters, one from the Limerick 
organizer resigning his position because he could not incur expenses 
without showing a return, mentioning that when a meeting of farmers 
around Kilmallock was summoned to get shares, the military and 
police scoured round the country, and as a result it had to be dropped. 
Farmers told him they would gladly take one hundred shares, but it 
was not safe to invest money at present in such enterprises. But for 
the interference in the Kilmallock meeting, it was believed 5,000 shares 
would have been taken by farmers there in Irish Cooperative Meat, 
Limited. On the 30th October a further letter was addressed to the 
Chief Secretary asking for the reply promised to the first letter, and 
also mentioning that the Royal Irish Constabulary were making in- 
quiries as to societies and individuals taking shares in the project, 
and stating that if information of that kind was wanted it could 
always be had at the office, where a list was kept, and there was 
nothing secret about the enterprise, which was purely a business 
proposition. And this was the reason why the committee pressed for 
a guarantee that the project, involving an outlay of £250,000, would 
not be destroyed by forces of the Crown, or if destroyed, adequate 
compensation would be given. To this letter, on the 2nd November, 
the following official reply was given: 'I am desired by the Chief 
Secretary to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 30th ultimo.' 
None of the matters dealt with in the first or succeeding letters were 
referred to, nor was the promise of inquiry or reply carried out. The 
last fact connected with this effort to create a great Irish industry is 
a letter from the Cork organizer stating that it was useless for him 
to continue his work. Nobody would come to meetings, and traveling 
was dangerous ; farmers saw no security for money invested in any 
cooperative enterprise. 

"We recapituate the facts. Here is a great Irish industrial enter- 
prise, with every prospect of success, with a directorate whose political 
character is above suspicion, with prominent shareholders who are 
generals, colonels, and others holding high office in the British Army, 
and they cannot get from the Chief Secretary a guarantee that if 
they build a meat factory, bacon factory, and cold store at Waterford 
the factory will not be burned down by the armed forces of the 
Crown, or if burned down that adequate compensation will be paid. 
These were plain questions addressed to the Chief Secretary, and he 
obviously finds himself unable to give a reply. He could, probably, 
if it was a local society of farmers, indicate that it was composed 
of persons whose politics rendered them liable to suspicion, and gave 
them such a public warning as he gave at Westminster, that any 
creamery was in danger if its manager was suspected of Sinn Fein 
opinions. No such general charge could be directed against Irish 
Cooperative Meat, Limited; and yet the Chief Secretary for Ireland 
finds himself unable, after four months, to assure Lieutenant-Colonel 
Sir John Keane that if the business organization of which Sir John 
is chairman proceeds to erect premises, they will not be burned down 
by forces of the Crown; or, if burned down, compensation will be 
paid. This is making easy the operations of the American trusts, of 
which official dread was lately expressed. We can be quite sure that 
if American money was invested in a meat factory in Ireland, the 
American Government would very soon get compensation from the 
British Government for its proprietors if it was burned down by the 
armed forces of the Crown. The property of American citizens in 
Ireland would be either adequately protected; or, if wrecked, com- 
pensation would be paid. No American capitalist need dread loss of 
his money if he builds a meat factory in Ireland. Why then cannot 
Sir John Keane and his colleagues get a guarantee of safety or a 



989 

guarantee of compensation? The problem is beyond us to solve. Sir 
Hamar Greenwood denies explicitly that the British Government has 
any hostility to cooperative organization. What is it, then, which 
makes him unable to insure Irish Cooperative Meat, Limited, against 
the destruction of its premises if this society gives out the contract 
and starts to work? We have no answer. Perhaps the Chief Secre- 
tary, now that we have given publicity to the correspondence, may be 
induced to speak and say whether he suspects Lieutenant-Colonel Sir 
John Keane, the general, colonels, majors, and other shareholders of 
treasonable practices, or whether any industrial enterprise of the kind 
is unlawful in Ireland. We think an answer is needed, and we hope 
the question will be put at Westminster, where convention requires 
that an answer shall be given." 

HOSTILITY OF ENGLISH CAPITALISTS BEHIND 
REPRESSION OF IRISH INDUSTRIES 

Q. Mr. Manly: Has that enterprise been completely abandoned 
as a result of this oppression? A. Yes, it is abandoned now. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Now, quite obviously the producers in 
that territory were planning to organize a meat-packing factory that 
would enable them to carry on all the functions of raising cattle and 
killing cattle and marketing the by-products. A. Yes. 

Q. Why should the British Government object to that enterprise, 
and prevent the marketing of the agricultural products of Ireland? 
Why should the Government object to that, in your opinion? A. 
Well, I find it difficult to answer that question, but there is no doubt 
about it that they have continually put a spoke in the wheel to 
scotch Irish industry. You know the same effort was made in Cork 
to stop the Ford factory. It was not done through the Government, 
but through the motor industry in England. They tried to block 
Ford setting up that industry because they said that if he did, it 
would hurt British trade. 

Q. Major Newman: But you say the British Government was not 
behind it? A. Well, they may have been, but it was primarily the 
British motor industry that was objecting. 

Q. Commissioner Mauer: Did Ford get his plant erected? A. 
Yes, he did. He eventually decided to make these motor tractors 
and not motor cars. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: In your opinion, why is the British Gov- 
ernment opposed to the better development of Irish industry? A. 
I think it is sheer stupidity. The British are a stupid people. They 
have proved it in many ways. After all, Ireland helps to feed 
England. It. seems to me an amazing thing that the English people 
should destroy Irish creameries and have to pay five shillings a 
pound for butter. It seems to me sheer stupidity — amazing stu- 
pidity. In destroying Ireland, England is also destroying her best 
customer. 



991) 

Q. Major Newman: What do you think is in their mind? A. 
Well, I think they are afraid. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: That economic prosperity will increase 
Ireland's power? That a weak country can be held in subjection 
easier than a strong country? A. Yes, that is it. You know they 
have tried to keep the population of Ireland at low ebb. As Sir 
John French said, the trouble in Ireland was that there were too 
hundred thousand young men too many, and they wanted to get rid 
of this population — the "vermin," as they call them. 

Major Newman: He said there were two hundred thousand too 
many? A. Yes, young men. He said that they were the cause 
of the trouble. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: This policy of economic repression in 
Ireland, in so far as it is intelligent, must be traceable back to an 
individual or a group of individuals or economic interests. Have 
you any theory as to where it emanates from? A. No, I have no!. 

Q. Does it emanate from the north of Ireland, from Belfast? A. 
No, I don't think so. 

Q. Does it emanate from Sir Edward Carson's policy? A. I 
think there is a desire among the capitalist class in England to get 
Ireland in its grasp economically, and therefore anything like the 
cooperative movement they object to, because the cooperative move- 
ment means the destruction of capitalism. 

Q. So you think that there is a tendency in England to weaken 
Ireland for their own power? A. Yes, I think that is so. 

Q. 'It is not necessary for each group to be organized, but each 
group sees its opportunity in Ireland, and that opportunity is weak- 
ened by cooperation? A. Yes, yes. 

Q. The fishing industry in England, for instance, might object to 
the cooperative fishing industry? A. Yes, yes. 

IRISH ANTHRACITE COAL NOT UTILIZED 

Q. And the coal: the English coal-mine owners object to the de- 
velopment of Irish coal mines? A. Well, Irish coal is anthracite, 
and it is no good for burning. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Now, just a moment. You say it i> 
no good for burning? A. Well, they cannot burn it in their grates. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Your stoves are not equipped to use anthracite? 
A. We haven't the heating systems that you have. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: We think that is the best coal we have. 
Our folks would never know how to us<> any other kind of coal. 
They have always burned anthracite. A. We have been carrying 
on a movement to encourage the Irish people to use it, but it means a 
change in our grates. 



991 

Q. But when you come to set up your new industries and foun- 
dries, you can adapt them to use anthracite? A. Yes, the new in- 
dustries are adapting themselves to use Irish coal. 

RAPID GROWTH OF COOPERATIVE MOVEMENT 

Q. Commissioner Howe: You are familiar with the cooperative 
movement in Ireland, are you, Miss Bennett? A. Well, 1 am nol 
working; in it, but I knuv\ the Plunkett House crowd very well. 

Q. We have nol had \er\ man) statements on that, and il sou 
catri give us an idea of the cooperative movement and how it is 
developing and its scope, it would be very interesting. A. Well, 
you understand, the cooperative movement in Ireland is altogether 
agricultural — agricultural production. The cooperative movement 
is rather different from what it is in England. Its strength really 
lies in Sir Horace Plunkett's organization, the Irish Agricultural Or- 
ganization Society. It is the cooperation of farmers, and it has 
grown immensely within the last twenty years. I think it is about 
twenty or twenty-five years established. And there have been co- 
operative societies set up all over Ireland, north and south, and it 
has been a quite definite link between north and south, for as I 
mentioned before, no politics can enter into the movement at all. 
Unionists come into the cooperative movement with our Sinn Feiners. 
Politics are outside of the movement altogether. 

DESTRUCTION OF COOPERATIVE CREAMERIES 
BY CROWN FORCES 

I think recently there has been quite a distinct feeling that there 
has been an effort to break up this cooperative movement in Ireland. 
The attacks on the creameries look distinctly like that. APo°iether 
now the number of creameries destroyed amount to 47. Those are 
not all in the Irish Agricultural Organization Society, Sir Horace 
Plunkett's organization, but the large majority of them are. I have 
here another copy of the Irish Homestead which gives a complete 
list of the creameries destroyed in Ireland and the circumstances. 
If I read one or two, you will see how it is done. The I. A. 0. S. is 
getting out evidence to prove that it was the Crown forces who de- 
stroyed these creameries in Ireland. 

Q. Major Newman: If you read us one or two of them, can you 
leave us the rest? A. Yes, I brought you an extra copy so that the 
secretary might have them. 

Q. Major Newman: We are very glad to have that specific in- 
formation. We have already had some information on the subject, 
but we should like to have a complete and reliable list. A. Well, 
this you can rely upon as being absolutely correct, as being very 
carefully compiled at Plunkett House. 



992 

The first is the 9th of April, 1920, the Rearcross Cooperative 
Creamery, County Tipperary. Stated to have been burned by 
police and soldiers; machinery broken by police previous day; prop- 
erty completely destroyed. Direct personal evidence given. Claim 
for £5,000 lodged in County Court; damages amounting to £1,100 
awarded. Compensation for machinery was refused, as it was not 
a separate claim of which notice was given within three days, in 
accordance with Malicious Injuries Act. Creamery appealed against 
decision, and were awarded a further sum of £1,200 for machinery 
destroyed, with costs. This attack and others under same date are 
assumed to have been reprisals for the shooting of two policemen. 
This was the first cooperative creamery attacked in Ireland. Trade 
turnover, 1918, £7,858. 

Then it goes on. The tenth of April is another in Reiska, County 
Tipperary, an auxiliary creamery or separating station, property of 
Upperchurch Cooperative Agricultural and Dairy Society, County 
Tipperary. Stated to have been damaged by police and soldiers; 
machinery smashed and premises injured. Supposed cause same as 
at Rearcross. Direct personal evidence given at County Court. An 
award of £800, including consequential damage, was given against 
the county. County Court Judge Moore expressed the view that 
Crown ought to pay the amount. The creamery was later entirely 
destroyed (see Reiska, 10th August). See also Upperchurch, 31st 
July. 

On the same date, April 10th, is another one, the Knockfune Co- 
operative Agricultural and Dairy Society, County Tipperary, an in- 
dependent auxiliary dairy society supplying cream to Newport Co- 
operative Agricultural and Dairy Society for churning. Stated to 
have been damaged by military and police, machinery smashed and 
premises injured. Supposed cause of attack same as at Rearcross. 
Direct personal evidence available. This creamery was later en- 
tirely destroyed. See Knockfune, 29th July. See also Newport Co- 
operative Agricultural and Dairy Society, 23d July. Trade turn- 
over, 1918, £6,581. 

On the same day the Kilcommon Cooperative Creamery, County 
Tipperary, was also destroyed, and the goods in store destroyed and 
stolen. Direct personal evidence given. No reason whatever could 
be found as a cause for the attack. And so it goes on all through 
the list — two on the 6th of August; one on the 10th of August; an- 
other on the 16th; another on the 17th, and on the 27th; another on 
8th September, 15th September, 19th September. The 1st of Octo- 
ber, two more. 



993 

COOPERATIVE RECREATION HALL DEMOLISHED 

The 7th of October case is rather interesting. This was an agri- 
cultural society at New Ross, County Wexford, a general cooperative 
society. Cushinstown Hall is one of a number of halls erected 
throughout the country out of a bequest left by Gertrude, Countess 
of Pembroke, and which have been vested in cooperative societies 
for administrative ends. These halls are used for educational and 
social purposes of all sorts, and have been found valuable acces- 
sories to the cooperative movement. Soldiers are stated to have 
held up about fifteen men present at 9 P. M., smashed scenery and 
stage fittings, burst open presses, and smashed boards out of stage 
fronts and out of wall and floor with a pickaxe, and then fired shots 
over the hall when leaving. The cause of the attack is supposed to 
be "terrorism." An estimate has been obtained for the repairs and 
a bill for same has been sent to Sir Nevil Macready through Colonel 
Jameson Davis, Enniscorthy. 

And then the list continues: 8th October, a central cooperative 
creamery at Banteer, County Cork; two creameries on the 9th Octo- 
ber, one on the 11th, two again on the 18th, and others on the 25th, 
27th, and 31st; another on 3d November, 4th November, 5th Novem- 
ber, and again others on 8th, 9th, 11th, 13th, and 18th November; 
26th November, 27th — two large central creameries. And so it goes. 

NOT ENOUGH MONEY IN IRELAND TO PAY FOR 
DAMAGE DONE BY CROWN FORCES 

Q. Major Newman: I note that the first one or two of those 
that you read said that a proceedings for compensation for damages 
was instituted and afterwards allowed by the court. A. That was 
the county, you see; not the British Government. But the counties 
are not paying those claims under the Malicious Injuries Act. They 
cannot pay them. It would be impossible. Even in the Irish Times. 
which is the Government organ, they stated that if all the claims for 
malicious injuries were to be paid, there is not money enough in 
Ireland to pay them all. 

Q. We have been told by other witnesses that it is the custom to 
assess these damages back on the community — that the community 
has to pay it. But what court was that? A. The county court. 

Q. Later, after that did they cease to do that, or did they make 
awards all the way through? A. I will see about that (looking 
at notes). 

Major Newman: That is not essential. 

The Witness: As a matter of fact, none of these are being paid. 
The county councils are refusing to pay them. In some of these 



994 

cases they made a claim, and in others they did not. For instance, 
at Ballymote, County Sligo, a claim for £25,000 was made to the 
County Court. 

Q. Mr. Manly: But that is simply lodged in the court. It is not 
awarded by the court. A. Well, in many cases the court says the 
loss is so much. But what the Irish Agricultural Organization So- 
ciety is out to do is to prove the loss, to place complete evidence be- 
fore the court, and then make the claim on the British Government. 
That is what they want to get this evidence for. 

GOVERNMENT'S FALSE EXCUSES FOR DESTRUC- 
TION OF COOPERATIVE CREAMERIES 

Q. Major Newman: Did you ever hear of any case in which arms 
or ammunition had been discovered in creameries that had been 
raided by the Crown forces? A. It was stated in one or two cases 
that they had; but that was stated not to be true. The police stated 
that they were fired upon from two creameries. I think it would 
open this up if a read a little from "AE." on the subject of the 
destruction of these creameries. It is from one of his editorials: 

"The cooperative movement in Ireland has gained world-wide recog- 
nition as one of the sanest and most beneficent of national movements. 
Its membership includes men of all parties and creeds in Ireland, 
and it is as popular and widely spread in Ulster as in other provinces. 
Its constitution and the rules of its societies forbade the discussion 
of political and sectarian matters. On this basis many thousands of 
Unionists were able to join with their Nationalist fellow-countrymen 
in an all-Ireland movement for their mutual benefit. Over one thou- 
sand societies have been created, with an annual turnover now ex- 
ceeding eleven million pounds. The creameries, bacon factories, mills 
and agricultural stores created by cooperative societies are a familiar 
feature in the Irish countryside. Up to the moment of writing, forty- 
two attacks have been made on cooperative societies by the armed 
forces of the Crown. In these attacks creameries and mills have 
been burned to the ground, their machinery wrecked ; agricultural 
stores have also been burned, property looted, employees have been 
killed, wounded, beaten, threatened, or otherwise ill-treated. Why 
have these economic organizations been specially attacked ? Because 
they have hundreds of members, and if barracks have been burned or 
police have been killed or wounded in the lamentable strife now being 
waged in Ireland, and if the armed forces of the Crown cannot cap- 
ture those actually guilty of the offenses, the policy of reprisals, con- 
doned by the spokesmen of the Government, has led to the wrecking 
of any enterprise in the neighborhood, the destruction of which would 
inflict widespread injury and hurt the interests of the greatest number 
of people. I say this has been done without regard to the innocence 
on guilt of the persons whose property is attacked. It is not only 
wicked, this indiscriminate justice, but it is the most foolish of all 
policies if its object be to make people cling to the donor of the 
justice so dispensed. Every innocent person whose property is at- 
tacked, whatever were his political feelings before, becomes naturally 
an antagonist to the power which has injured him. 



995 

CREAMERIES HAVE NOT BEEN USED AS 

AMBUSHES 

"In two cases it has been alleged that cooperative creameries were 
used as a basis of attacks on military or police. These exceptions are 
the Newport and Ballymacelligott Societies. It was stated by General 
Rycroft, of course on the report of some subordinate, that shots were 
fired from the Newport Creamery on a party of soldiers. The Irish 
Agricultural Organization Society was most anxious to get at the 
truth of these charges, which involved a violation of the non-political 
character of the associations it created. Sir Horace Plunkett in- 
vestigated the case on the spot, seeing witnesses and attending the 
Quarter Sessions when the case was heard. Before this a claim for 
compensation under the Malicious Injuries Acts was made by the 
Newport Society. General Rycroft was informed that the claim was 
to be considered by the County Court Judge, and the military authori- 
ties were asked to give evidence. They did not summon any witnesses. 
They did not employ counsel to cross-examine the Society's witnesses. 
They actually withdrew from the district the soldiers who were im- 
plicated in the attack. I believe this was done because on deliberation 
it was found that the charge of shooting from the creamery could 
not be sustained. The second case, that of Ballymacelligott, has been 
given wide publicity by the Chief Secretary. Most careful inquiries 
have been made by the Irish Agricultural Organization Society, and 
from a study of the affidavits made by eye-witnesses I am convinced 
the statement made by Sir Hamar Greenwood, on what authority I 
know not, is a travesty of the facts ; that there was no ambush at the 
creamery, but there was a most wanton attack by the armed forces 
of the Crown on employees of the Society and others present during 
the normal working of the creamery. In this attack two men were 
killed and two wounded. It may be said my denial is of no more 
value than Sir Hamar Greenwood's affirmation. Be it so. It brings 
me to the purpose of this article, which is to demand, on behalf of 
the Irish cooperative movement, an open and impartial inquiry into 
these attacks on cooperative societies. We cooperators have nothing 
to fear from the result of such investigation. The Government may 
have, for it has hitherto refused to set up any tribunal to inquire into 
the wreckings. I believe refusal was made because the Government 
knows only too well the outcry which would follow an exposure of 
the horrors which have taken place in Ireland, to which thousands 
of witnesses of high character could testify. I appeal from the British 
Government to the British people. I appeal to their sense of fair play 
and justice to judge between Irish cooperators and the Government. 

"THE GOVERNMENT STANDS CHARGED WITH 

ARSON" 

"We charge certain unknown agents of the Crown with indiscrimi- 
nate wreckings and burnings of our societies. The Chief Secretary 
retorts by saying they are centers of revolutionary propaganda. Let 
him prove his charge if he has evidence. We declare we have nothing 
to fear from any investigation. The whole character and repute of 
our movement is involved. If our defense breaks down, a long and 
honorable record is broken and our character is ruined. Knowing 
all this, we press for the fullest and most public inquiry. The Gov- 
ernment stands charged, through the acts of its agents, with arson, 
with the wrecking of property, and the ill-treatment of Irish citizens, 
without due trial by processes of law. It shrinks from publicity. It 
refuses open inquiry. We ask for investigation. The Government 
denies it. Which shows the worse conscience? Which behaves as 
the guilty party? The leaders of the cooperative movement in Ire- 



996 



land, Sir Horace Plunkett, the Lord Monteagle, the Rev. Thomas 
Finlay, and Mr. R. A. Anderson, are publicists whose character and 
work have been known for over a quarter of a century. Are they 
men likely to make irresponsible or unfounded accusations; men with 
long and honorable careers of public 'service behind them? They, I 
assert, *are men of honor with a knowledge of Ireland a thousand 
times greater than the Chief Secretary could possibly have, a knowl- 
edge gained by lives spent in philanthropic work. When such men 
ask for open inquiry, public opinion in Great Britain, if there be any 
sense of justice there, would insist on this being granted. It cannot 
allow the fountain of justice to lie under the imputation of being 
fouled. What is being done in Ireland today may be done in Great 
Britain tomorrow. 

COMPENSATION FROM CROWN FUNDS 
DEMANDED 

"On behalf of the Irish cooperative movement I demand the setting 
up of an impartial tribunal to investigate the illegal destruction of 
cooperative property by the armed forces of the Crown. I claim for 
these societies full compensation out of Crown funds for the property 
destroyed, if the charge is proved. It is futile saying there are 
County Courts and that claims can be made there under the Malicious 
Injuries Act. That Act was never intended to lay upon the rate- 
payers in any district the burden of compensation for property 
wrecked by the forces of the Crown. No County Council will levy 
a rate to compensate persons where property has been destroyed by 
those whose ostensible reason for employment by the Crown is the 
defense of life and property. The Irish Agricultural Organization 
Society has indeed urged its societies to make claims under the Act 
before the judges in the County Courts, not in the belief that the 
compensation awarded would be levied by the County Council or paid 
by the ratepayers, but because by doing so sworn evidence about the 
cause of the wrecking was available. On this sworn evidence County 
Court judges have already assessed damages, and one of them de- 
clared the Crown ought to compensate for the acts of its agents, as 
it did in Fermoy. The actual injury inflicted on the cooperative 
movement and the property of poor farmers is estimated by experts 
to be between £250.000 and £300,000, while the annual trade disturbed 
is almost £1,000,000. I say if the British people, because of their 
natural anger over the shooting of police and soldiers, condone with- 
out inquiry indiscriminate vengeance inflicted on persons' and move- 
ments which are innocent, they will lay up a hell for themselves in 
their own country. They will be tearing up all the safeguards of 
justice won through centuries of struggle, and there are too many 
interests minatory to democracy in power to allow them the advan- 
tage of such precedents. If we trust the judges and the courts, the 
Government should not fear to do so. Do not trust those who are 
afraid of courts of inquiry, and who, to every demand for justice, 
respond by attempts to excite hate and rage among the people. It 
may be we Irish are scoundrels, but if we are, let us be tried openly 
for our crimes, and not penalized without trial either by order of the 
secret service or without orders by military or police forces out of 
hand. I ask for the Irish Agricultural Organization Society the 
support of all fair-minded men in order that it may get the public 
inquiry it demands. Do not let a great movement which has hitherto 
won praise from all parties in the state and from visitors all over the 
world be condemned to destruction on the word of a man whose sole 
personal knowledge of Ireland is derived from brief visits, protected 
by the military, to Dublin Castle, and whose sole source of informa- 
tion about the matters in dispute is the word of the persons who are 
charged with committing the crimes." 



997 

WRITER A PROTESTANT ULSTERMAN 

Q. Major Newman: Now this is an editorial in what? A. In 
the Irish Homestead — an editorial written by "AE." himself, Mr. 
George Russell. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Has Mr. Russell ever been arrested? A. 
No, although Sir Hamar Greenwood spoke of him in the House of 
Commons as a dangerous extremist. 

Q. And the Homestead has been permitted to go on, has it? A. 
Yes. 

Q. There has been no interruption of the Homestead publica- 
tion? A. No, no interruption. Well, you see, when you read it 
conscecutively, it is written in a very moderate tone. That is a mere 
statement of facts, and they cannot go back of that. 

Q. Major Newman: Is Mr. George Russell a Sinn Feiner? A. 
Well, he does not belong to the Sinn Fein organization, but he is 
Sinn Fein in sympathies. 

Q. He is Irish? A. Yes, he is an Ulsterman. 

Q. Mr. Manly: He is a Protestant, I believe. A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Sir Horace Plunkett is a Protestant too, 
is he not? A. Yes, he is. 

Q. And he has always been identified with the Unionist cause 
in so far as he has been identified with any party? A. Well, he is 
a dominion home ruler now. 

Q. But he has not been in any conflict with the Government? A. 
No. But he has been very badly treated by the Lloyd George 
Government. 

Q. Major Newman: But he is not opposed to the British Govern- 
ment? 

Q. Commissioner Howe: He does not favor Irish independence? 
A. 0, I see what you mean. He is not a Republican. He is not a 
Separatist. No. 

SCOPE OF IRISH COOPERATIVE MOVEMENT 

Q. Mr. Russell stated that there are a thousand cooperative so- 
cieties in Ireland. Those include stores, creameries, and what else? 
A. Well, you see, they have also to buy agricultural machinery. 

Q. And they buy it cooperatively? A. Yes. And they have 
a great number of stores. 

Q. Do you know anything about the cooperative banks that have 
been organized? A. About the National Land Bank, yes. I do 
know something about that, but 

Q. Now, we have diverted you from what you were saying. A. 
I was going to say that I would prefer not to give any evidence about 
the National Land Bank for special reasons. 



908 

Q. Chairman Wood: Then, if you like, Miss Bennett, you can 
just go back to what you have prepared. A. Well, I think that 
covers everything I can say about the industrial development of 
Ireland. There is a letter here which Mr. Anderson, secretary of the 
Irish Agricultural Organization Society, has prepared for the press, 
and if you wish, I can just leave that with you. 

Commissioner Addams: If you will just file that with the Sec- 
retary. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Miss Bennett, could you cover the attitude of the 
Irish industrial workers toward the Republic? That has not been 
covered to date, and if you could, I think it would be very valuable. 
A. Yes, I propose to. 

Q. If you can take it up in your own way. A. Yes. I am in 
the Irish Labor movement myself. I shall take that up presently. 

DEVELOPMENT OF REPUBLICAN ARBITRATION 

COURTS 

I would like next to deal with the arbitration courts, because I do 
not think there is anything more interesting in the Republican Gov- 
ernment than the development of these arbitration courts. Have 
they been dealt with in any way? 

Major Newman: To some extent, but we would be very glad to 
have your testimony on the subject. 

The Witness: Well, these courts, you know, were set up by the 
Republican Government. 

Major Newman: Well, if you will just proceed as if we didn't 
know anything about them, it would be most helpful. 

The Witness: I had hoped to have for the Commission a very in- 
teresting list of cases dealt with by these courts — a long list of cases 
giving the nature of the case and how it was dealt with and so on. 
But we had to be rather careful. We thought we ought to be rather 
careful in the papers we brought with us, and this particular paper 
has not come to hand. 

Q. Major Newman: Just at this point, you had no difficulty, did 
you, Miss Bennett, in regard to a passport to come over? A. Miss 
Townshend had some, but she comes from County Cork, and every- 
body from Cork has difficulty. But it was the American consul who 
made it difficult for Miss Townshend. She only got it two hours be- 
fore she had to start. 

Major Newman: She can tell us about that later. 

The Witness: These courts, when they first began, as far as I know 
the British Government made no objection to them. I think they 
thought they were a kind of little amusement for the Sinn Feiners, 
and that they would never attain any serious proportions. But, as a 
matter of fact, they were taken up with great favor by the Irish 



999 

people, for the Irish people have a great love for law. These new 
courts were taken up with very great favor because there is no red 
tape to them. The courts, of course, were instituted by the Repub- 
lican Government. They had their elections to the courts. 

Q. Was that an open election? A. I don't know. The amaz- 
ing thing about these courts was that the British people who came 
over were very much struck by the way the people accepted these 
courts and accepted their decisions almost in all cases. Mrs. Swan- 
wick made the comment that she had never seen nor heard of any 
case of government by consent like the government of Ireland by 
the Dail at the present time. 

UNIONISTS AND BRITISH CLAIMANTS USE 
REPUBLICAN COURTS 

They deal with all kinds of cases in the arbitration courts. And 
all kinds of people have come before the courts with their cases. In 
the country they have had to come before the arbitration courts — 
the Unionists have had to come, because no one would appear before 
the British courts. They could not get land cases settled otherwise, 
because nobody would come into the other courts or respect their 
decisions. And Unionists who have come before these courts have 
spoken in the highest praise of the justice of these courts. The way 
they are conducted and the judgments they have given have been 
highly commended. 

Q. Mr. Manly: British claimants have come before these courts, 
have they not, as a matter of fact? A. That I do not know of 
myself. A. Miss Townshend: The Prudential Insurance Company 
of England had a case in the Cork District Court not so long ago. 

Miss Bennett: Well, when these courts became very popular, then 
the British Government tried to suppress them. All over the coun- 
try they were suppressed. 

BRITISH DECLARE REPUBLICAN COURTS 
ILLEGAL 

Q. Major Newman: Could you tell us something about how they 
functioned before they suppressed them? A. Well, they used to 
meet in a public hall or room, and it was quite open. Kevin 
O'Shiel. he was a judge in the Land Court, and he told me that he 
has carried on one of these courts in the room when it was half- 
filled with military and police. He simply went on with his case. 
That was before they were forcibly prevented. Now they are driven 
underground, and hold their sessions in all sorts of places, wher- 
ever they can get a room. 



1000 

Q. When did those courts begin to function? A. It must be 
about a year and a half ago. I cannot give you exact dates. I 
am sorry. 

Q. But approximately when? A. I would say about a year 
and a half ago. 

Miss Townshend: I don't think it has been quite that long, has it? 

Q. And approximately about how long a period did they run 
openly? A. Up to the beginning of summer. 

Q. Beginning of summer in 1920? A. Yes, this spring. When 
the land courts were held this spring, they were held openly. 

Q. Then for nearly a year they were held openly? A. No, 
you are right, Miss Townshend. They were held openly only for 
about six months. All last autumn they were getting started in dif- 
ferent places. 

EFFECTIVE WORK OF INDUSTRIAL CONCILIA- 
TION BOARDS 

But also recently they have had a large growth in connection with 
the labor movement. They started what were called arbitration 
boards, which were really conciliation boards, in which they dealt 
with industrial disputes, and they dealt with them in a most satis- 
factory way. There is a note paper which has not come to hand 
giving a list of the cases they have dealt with, the cases in which they 
have prevented strikes or brought strikes to a satisfactory conclusion. 
Of course the workers were always willing to appear before these 
courts, but it was very difficult to get the employer to appear. Before 
the establishment of these courts, the Dail Minister of Labor tried to 
handle these cases himself, and these courts were an outgrowth of 
his work. 

I had an experience in this connection — one of our cases about 
women garment workers. Tom Kelly, who by all rights ought to 
be Lord Mayor of Dublin, but is at the present time insane since his 
imprisonment in England — at that time, however, he was all right, 
and he acted as arbitrator of this case in which I was concerned. 
On the second afternoon when I went in, Tom Kelly said to me, 
"You have got to hurry up and get this case settled, because we 
expect the military here by four o'clock." It went on, and we did 
not get the case settled, and it came to be a quarter after three. We 
were holding out, and the employers would not give in. Tom 
Kelly put his watch on the table and said, "Half an hour." Then, 
"Ten minutes." "Five minutes." And we got the case settled five 
minutes to four. 



1001 

COURTROOM SMASHED UP BY MILITARY 

Q. What happened at four? A. Well, the military did not 
smash up the place that day, but they came the next day and smashed 
up the place. 

Q. And where was that? A. In Hartford Street, Dublin. 

Q. This court had its offices there? A. Yes, they bought a 
house and had their offices there. 

Q. When was that? A. November, 1919. 

Q. And at that time they were being raided? A. Yes, you see, 
they had been declared an illegal organization. 

Q. Up to that time they were a legal organization? A. Yes, 
up to shortly before that time. 

Q. Mr. Manly: After that there were continuous raids? A. 
Yes. I have gone over to the place since, and have looked at it. 
and I saw the damage done by the Crown forces in these raids. 

THE IRISH WOMEN WORKERS' UNION 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: I would just like to ask a question. 
You told us you were connected with the Women's Trade Union 
League there? A. Yes, the Women Workers' Union. 

Q. From where? A. It is a trade union for the women work- 
ers of Ireland. 

Q. It takes the whole country in? A. Well, we have not got 
the whole country in yet. The majority of our workers are in 
Dublin. 

Q. And what position do you hold? A. I am general secretary. 

Q. And how did you get that position — elected or what? A. 
May I tell that later on when I deal with the labor movement? 

Q. Well, I have to leave after an hour, and I would like to krow 
before I go. A. Well, then, I will tell you. In the early part of 
1916 there was no proper union for women workers at that lime. 
The Irish Transport Workers' Union admitted women, but it was 
not satisfactory at that time. And an effort was made to establish 
an independent women workers' union. James Connolly approved 
of that step, and Miss Maloney, who was working with him, ap- 
proached me and asked me if I would try to organize the women 
workers in the principal industries in Dublin. This was in the early 
part of 1916, and I knew that she and James Connolly were very 
closely associated with politics. And I said I would not take up 
the work unless the trade union movement was absolutely divorced 
from politics. I had a warm discussion with James Connolly, and 
he said it was absolutely wrong to take the movement apart from 
politics; that labor could only progress that way. Nothing was 
done then. After the rising in 1916 the whole labor movement arose 



1002 

quickly, and the men got organized quickly. In January it was 
again suggested to me from Liberty Hall that I should organize the 
women workers. And to show you the conditions then — and you 
know, it was in January, 1917 — how the cost of living had gone up, 
the women workers were earning 7, 8, 9 and 10 shillings a week. 
That was in the printing trade, and other trades were earning less 
than they. The printing trade was the aristocratic one, and con- 
ditions were better there than in some of the others. I saw some- 
thing had to be done, so I started in 1917 with a few girls of the 
printing trade whom I got together. And we had extraordinary suc- 
cess, and I got the women in the printing trade organized. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were those adult women getting 7, 8, and 9 shil- 
lings a week? A. Adult women; some of them had worked for 
18 or 19 years for the same employer. The industrial conditions in 
Dublin had a great deal to do with the uprising of 1916. My father 
was of the employing class, and they looked upon me as a sort of 
blackleg. 

Q. What is your father's occupation, Miss Bennett? A. He is 
an auctioneer appraiser, an appraiser of values. He is not an em- 
ployer of a large sort, of course, but he belongs to that class. When 
I went to the employers and asked them for an increase, they refused, 
and would not recognize the women workers' union. And they tried 
to bribe the women out of the union. They said they would give 
them a sixpence or a shilling increase. I told them not to accept it. 
The women are splendid in Dublin. I have known of cases where 
girls have returned to employers a half crown — and that is a great 
deal — they returned it for six or eight weeks, this half-crown in- 
crease, because it was not given through the union. And eventually, 
after six or eight months, we got the Employers' Association to 
recognize our union and to deal with us. 

ABSOLUTELY NO RELIGIOUS ANTAGONISM 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Now, what I had in mind; you told 
us in the beginning that you were a Protestant. A. Yes. 

Q. And Dublin, I believe, is overwhelmingly Catholic. A. Yes, 
and the workers are overwhelmingly Catholic. 

Q. The people in this country are led to believe that the trouble 
in Ireland is of a religious nature. A. Yes. 

Q. And it seems strange to me that they would have a Protestant 
organizer in a Catholic district if there was this religious difference 
which is alleged to exist in Ireland. A. Well, our union now 
numbers 6,000 workers, and I should say that they are almost alto- 
gether Catholic. Personally I have met only about a half dozen 
Protestants. Of course there may be others, but I have not met 
them. 



1003 

Q. But you have found no antagonism to you on account of the 
fact that you are a Protestant? A. Absolutely none. And I have 
now working with me as my assistant a Miss Shaw, who is also a 
Protestant — a very much better Protestant than I am, if I may say it 
that way. In one of the firms two girls who were Protestant got into 
some sort of dispute with the employers. There was some small 
injustice done them, and the other girls, who were all Catholics, 
would not stand for it. They demanded that the employers treat 
these two Protestant girls fairly. I have always been treated with 
the greatest confidence and the greatest consideration by these 
women. 

Q. That is very interesting, in view of what is stated in this coun- 
try. A. I found it very interesting myself. I thought, in going 
into it, that there would be a good deal of opposition. But I did 
not find it at all. 

WAGES OF DUBLIN WOMEN WORKERS IMPROVED 

Q. Now, to what extent have you improved the condition of the 
women workers in Dublin? A. Well, you would not think it very 
much, but we think it very considerable. You see, they used to pay 
different wages in different firms. We have now established a uni- 
form scale, and a different wage, according to age. They begin at 
14 years of age at 10 shillings a week, and at the end of four years 
they get a minimum of 35 shillings a week. 

Q. Mr. Manly: So that 14-year-old girls now get more than 
women used to? A. Yes, more than the adult women used to. 
And the adult women now get — as I said, the minimum for a trained 
worker is 35 shillings. 

Q. Major Newman: What did they get prior to your organiza- 
tion? A. Nine to ten shillings the senior women got. Some of 
them got as little as 6 or 7 shillings. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Do you find it very difficult to have 
discipline among them? A. No, no, you do not. They are very 
good. It is rather interesting. We find that certain types of work- 
ers have certain characteristics. The printers are magnificent trade 
unionists. The laundry workers are very, very difficult, not through 
any ill-nature, but through sheer good nature and indifference. 

AFFECTION OF DUBLIN WORKERS FOR 
JAMES LARKIN 

Q. Now, did you know James Larkin? A. I have never met 
him. I have heard him speak, but 1 never came into contact with 
him personally. 

Q. No, I should not think you would, because he was here some 



1004 

time before you were in the labor movement. A. Well, my interest 
in the labor movement began at the time Mr. Larkin was in Dublin 
in 1913. 

Q. Of course you know what happened to Mr. Larkin here? A. 
Yes. 

Q. Do the people in Dublin feel strongly about the way he is 
treated here? A. O, yes, there is a great feeling for him there. 
The people have by no means forgotten him. And his work, like 
Connolly's, is still being carried on. Thomas Foran acts for him 
now. 

Q. Tn what esteem do they hold Larkin over there, generally? 
A. Well, it is rather difficult to say. The dockers and the general 
workers retain their affection for Larkin. The other workers have 
got ahead of the agitation stage. It is difficult to say. He certainly 
would have a very large following if he came back to Ireland. 

Q. He would? A. Yes, he would. 

INTOLERABLE INDUSTRIAL CONDITIONS 
PRECIPITATE EASTER UPRISING 

Q. Mr. Manly: You said there was a definite relation between the 
industrial situation and the Easter uprising. Could you develop 
that? A. Yes, that was generally true. 

Q. You mean a general feeling of discontent that gradually 
merged into the Easter uprising? A. Yes, I think it helped to pre- 
cipitate it. Nothing could stop the uprising in Dublin. Connolly 
didn't start it. The conditions were already there which made an 
uprising possible. Of course, from the treatment he had received, 
and the workers too, he was a terribly bitter man — naturally enough, 
for he was shamefully and terribly treated. 

Q. So you think that working conditions and wages had some- 
thing to do with it too? A. Well, you see, the wages were so bad. 
I have told you what the wages of the women were. I could not tell 
you what the wages of the men were, but they were equally scan- 
dalous. The people were living under scandalous conditions. The 
same conditions went on for two years after the war began, while the 
cost of living was steadily increasing. Life was not worth living 
for these men. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Do you have slum conditions in 
Dublin? A. Yes, the slums of Dublin are terrible, terrible, ter- 
rible. And now, you see, we have a housing famine in Dublin. 

Q. A housing famine? A. A housing famine. 

Q. Mr. Manly: And now, I suppose, with the present destruction 
of houses that housing condition is getting worse? A. Yes, you 
see that is why the destruction of houses is so terrible. 



1005 

REPUBLICAN LAND COURTS AND DECREE OF 
DAIL AVERT LAND RIOTS 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Now will you go back again to these 
courts? A. To these courts. Yes. About the land courts. In order 
to make up this report, I had a long talk with Mr. Kevin O'Shiel, 
who is a member of the Dail and also, of course, is on the run. 
But I managed to see him before I came over here and he gave me 
some details of his duties as Land Judge and how the work started. 
You all know, of course, of what we call the land hunger in Ireland, 
and this passionate desire that rises up among the Irish people for 
the possession of land. It seems to come in waves. A wave of this 
land hunger swept over Ireland in the early part of 1920. The 
people in Connaught got to threatening the landlords and demanding 
land. Arthur Griffith — you know him by reputation, of course — 
realized that there was going to be serious land trouble, which would 
further complicate the political question in Ireland. Accordingly, 
the Dail had to take this under consideration, and the Dail issued this 
decree. 

Q. Major Newman: Would you give us the date of this, just for 
the record? A. This was the 29th of June, 1920. (Reads decree I : 

"At a time when in many Irish cities, town, and villages the British 
armed forces are engaged in wholesale sabotage, the following proc- 
lamation is issued by the elected Government of Ireland: 

"'DAIL EIREANN PROCLAMATION 

" 'Whereas it has come to our knowledge that claims have been and 
are being made in various parts of the country to farms and holdings 
which are being used and worked by the occupiers as dairy, agricul- 
tural, and residential holdings, and that such claims are being based 
on the assertion that the claimants or their ancestors were formerly 
in occupation of the property so claimed; and 

" 'Whereas, these claims are, for the most part, of old date, and 
while many of them may be well founded, others seem to be of a 
frivolous nature, and are put forward in the hope of intimidating the 
present occupiers ; 

"'Now it is decreed by Dail Eircaim in session assembled: 

"'(1) That the present time when the Irish people are locked in a 
life-and-death struggle with their traditional enemy is ill-chosen for 
the stirring up of strife amongst our fellow-countrymen ; and that 
all our energies must be directed towards the clearing out, not of the 
occupier of this or that piece of land, but the foreign invader of our 
country. 

"'(2) That pending the international recognition of the Republic 
no claims of the kind referred to shall be heard or determined by the 
courts of the Republic unless by written license of the Minister of 
Home Affairs. 

"'(3) That in the meanwhile claimants may file particulars of 
their claims with the Registrar of the District Court in which the 
property is situated. 

"'And it is further decreed: 

" 'That any person or persons who persists or persist in pressing 
forward a disputed claim of the nature above referred to shall do so 



1006 

in the knowledge that such action is a breach of this Decree; 

"'And it is ordered that the forces of the Republic be used to pro- 
tect the citizens against the adoption of high-handed methods by any 
such person or persons. 

" 'By order of Dail Eircann, this 29th day of June, 1920. 

" 'Department of Home Affairs/ " 

The Witness: That was the proclamation. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Did that put an end to the cattle driving? A. 
Well, I wanted to tell you about that. What led to the Dail taking a 
very strong action about this was that Captain Shaw Taylor, a promi- 
nent landlord of County Galway, was shot — was murdered because 
he refused to give up certain land to the claimants. And at that 
time the Dail had information that there were a large number of 
threatening notices to landlords throughout the West and part of 
the South, threatening them with death if they did not cede their 
land. And in other places the cattle drivings were going on. So 
because of that it became necessary to do something. Now, Kevin 
O'Shiel has written for me this statement of the land problem. 

CATTLE-DRIVING 

Q. Major Newman: Miss Bennett, for the purpose of our record, 
could you tell us briefly just what is meant by cattle driving? A. 
If certain people — the peasants — want to till a certain lot of land 
that a landlord is using too much of for grazing, they will drive the 
cattle away, you see, and they will take possession of the land them- 
selves. Or in other cases they will put their own cattle on the land 
where large lots of it are being so held. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Was this cattle driving spontaneous among the 
peoole? A. Yes, it was purely a spontaneous movement among 
the peasants in certain districts; not in all districts, but in certain 
districts. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Was it accompanied by force, or did 
they just drive the cattle away? A. 0, it is very often accom- 
panied by force and even bloodshed. And some of the people are 
yery anxious today about what may happen this spring. 

VOLUNTEERS ENFORCE JUDGMENTS OF LAND 

COURTS 

These Land Courts have had wonderful success, you know. They 
have settled many, many cases. Even when their judgments were 
against these people who have driven cattle off. their judgments have 
been acknowledged and accepted by the people. Kevin O'Shiel 
gave me a very interesting case. He went down to this very danger- 
ous country just when the trouble was at its worst. He went down 
to County Mayo, and he gave a decision against the claimants, and 
they would not accept the decree. They were using the land them- 



1007 

selves, and they had possession, and were tilling the land, and would 
not give it up. Why the claimants were so determined, they knew 
that the Volunteers in County Mayo would not turn out against them 
and operate against them. But the Dail sent two bands of Volun- 
teers from outside the county, one from Donegal and one from 
County Clare. And they went in and removed twelve of these men 
to an unknown destination. But the women went out and tilled the 
land when the men had been removed. And then the Volunteers 
came along and took off another twelve. And after that they never 
had any trouble. Everything went smoothly. 

Q. Major Newman: When was this incident. Miss Bennett? A. 
That was just after this Decree, at the end of June or the beginning 
of July, 1920. 

Q. And the man who was down there and handled that matter 
told you about it? A. Yes. 

Q. Just what is his position? A. He is a Land Judge. 

Q. Was he head of the judiciary there? A. Just for that 
district. 

PRISONERS TAKEN TO AN "UNKNOWN 
DESTINATION" 

Q. Commissioner Addams: How long did they stay in this un- 
known destination? Were they brought back soon? A. It is for a 
fixed time. They were brought back again. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: This unknown destination is generally 
known to the countryside? A. No, no, it would not be; for that 
would not do. They would be brought back in that case. 

Q. And how are they kept in these unknown destinations? A. 
The Volunteers keep them there, and public opinion is behind them. 
Of course you must have heard the story here of the prisoners on an 
island off Galway who refused to be rescued by the British police 
because they were prisoners of the Irish Republic. They drove 
them away when they came in boats to rescue them. 

Q. Major Newman: Now, these men who were removed — their 
cases had been tried? A. 0, yes, they had been tried, and they 
were resisting the judgment of the Court. 

Q. And the purpose was to send them to an unknown destination 
for what we call contempt of court? A. Yes, it was just an arbi- 
trary action. 

Q. Sort of a mild reprisal? A. Well, of course, they had to 
have respect for their decrees. There is no doubt but that that 
saved the country from terrible land troubles last summer, the fact 
that these courts were established and that their decrees were re- 
spected and obeyed. I have clippings here from the Times and 



1008 

other Unionist organs acknowledging these land courts and the good 
work they have done. 

Miss Townshend : And they are very kind to their prisoners. 

Commissioner Addams: They are not criminals. 

The Witness: Of course not. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: It is the policy of the Republican Gov- 
ernment to treat their prisoners kindly? A. Yes, yes. 

Q. They do not treat them like they did the women suffragists in 
the Washington prisons here? A. They are treated very kindly. 

LAND RIOTS OCCUR WHERE LAND PURCHASE 
ACTS ARE INOPERATIVE 

Q. Mr. Manly: Just one moment, please, Miss Bennett. Was this 
agitation and this shooting of landlords most marked in counties and 
areas where the Land Purchase Act was not put into effect, where 
these large estates were still in existence and were being used for 
grazing purposes instead of tillage? That was the case, was it not? 
A. Yes, these land cases almost all arise in Gal way and the western 
counties. 

Q. That is the large area where the great estates still stand, 
where the Land Purchase Act has not been put into effect? A. 
Yes, yes. 

Q. Major Newman: That is particularly fertile land, I believe. 
A. No, not in County Mayo. Parts of Galway are very good, but 
in parts of the west the land is poor land, and the peasants are very 
poor. 

Major Newman: Now, we have interrupted you a good many 
times, I fear, on this. 

REPUBLICAN LAND COURTS SUCCEED WHERE 
ENGLISH COURTS FAILED 

The Witness: But what I wanted to bring out was the success of 
these Land Courts. Where the English courts would fail absolutely, 
the Irish courts can carry the thing through and deal with it, be- 
cause they understand what the people want. 

Q. Mr. Manly: The English courts for centuries have been trying 
to solve this land question, and have not had the success that the 
Dail courts have had in just a few months. A. Yes, yes, in just a 
few months. 

Mr. Manly: I think it would be of interest to the Commission to 
read the statement of Mr. Kevin O'Shiel. 

Commissioner Addams: Yes, yes; we would like to hear it. 

The Witness: This, I must say, was written rather hurriedly. I 
got it on just the day I sailed. Mr. Kevin O'Shiel has, of course, 
been on the run, and he has also been very ill. ( Reading ) 



1009 

"THE LAND QUESTION IN IRELAND 

"In the springtime of the past year a violent and sudden recru- 
descence of the land trouble broke out in the province of Connaught, 
which even threatened for a time the stability of the popular cause. 
The trouble began in the County Galway. Like most popular up- 
heavals, it started fitfully, and showed no signs, even at its height, 
of organization or centralized control. It confined itself at first to a 
few spasmodic cattle drives, a few cases of the destruction of fences, 
and a few instances of threatening letters. After the shooting of 
Mr. Shaw Taylor, howwer, the question took on an extremely sinister 
and serious aspect. Far from checking the trouble, the tragic death 
of this landlord fanned what seemed the dying embers of the fever 
into a flame which sped with the fury of a prairie fire over Galway, 
Mayo, and Roscommon, and, having enveloped all Connaught, spread 
to West Leinster and North Minister, and even to the southern parts 
of Ulster. It was more than a mere disorder. It was a little revo- 
lution, and none the less a revolution because it lacked cohesion and 
direction. 

"We shall now examine the causes, remote and proximate, of this 
fierce distemper which sorely tested the powers of the Dail and which 
filled the industrious and peaceful people of the West with a wild and 
unreasoning passion. I will quote from an article I wrote in Young 
Ireland dated 26th June, 1920: 

" 'The land question, like the "Ulster" question and the "flax" ques- 
tion and every other domestic disturbance which irritates our peace, 
is of English origin and design. Directly or indirectly it can be traced 
back to the English invasion of the twelfth century, — that fruitful 
source of all our ills. It is no exaggeration to say that it is the 
basis, the framework, the very core of Irish history since the English 
occupation. It arose when the first Irishmen were driven from their 
ancient clan lands in order to make way for the feudal robbers of 
Henry Plantagenet. And then, as afterwards, plunders and all those 
outrages which accompany English civilization grew and increased ; 
it also prospered and grew with them. It was pretty active in the time 
of the Tudors, but became more violent when the Stuarts, Cromwell, 
and Dutch William were enforcing their organized systems of whole- 
sale pillage. Readers of Young Ireland do not need detailed accounts 
of the clearances during those periods in Ulster, in the Midlands, and 
in Munster, and of the consequent "man-driving" to the lean lands 
across the Shannon. Still more confiscations and "forfeitures" fol- 
lowed, until the majority of the depossessed Gaels were harried into 
the mountains and the swamps, and had to draw their sustenance as 
best they could from rock and heath and ooze. 

A CENTURY OF DISASTER 

" 'But to find the immediate cause of the present trouble, we need 
go back no further than to the last century,— beyond all doubt the 
most disastrous century this nation has experienced. It opened with 
the well-planned and carefully fostered "famine," whereby over 
3,000,000 of our race were expeditiously swept out of existence. And 
in order that none of the advantages of this brilliant and successful 
coup should be lost, it was followed up in quite proper strategic fash- 
ion by an eviction campaign on the part of the landlords which was, 
of course, directed by the English authorities. 

" 'In due course the day of reckoning arrived, and the century which 
saw the dying of the people in its infancy and their evictions and de- 
parture in its prime, witnessed the going of the landlords before its 
expiration. A degree of prosperity followed the Land War, and 
(hough the stream of vigorous humanity continued to flow copiously 
frorn the country, there was a kind of tranquility which was not 
broken until the recent disturbances. 



1010 

DUPLICITY OF CONGESTED DISTRICTS BOARD 

" 'The Land War cleared off the landlords, but it planted in their 
stead an equally if not more sinister danger in the shape of the body 
known as the "Congested Districts Board for Ireland." This body was 
ushered into existence with much trumpeting and blowing, as a board 
of the people's own choice and for the people's own weal. And in 
order to give a semblance of reality to the fiction, a number of promi- 
nent persons, ecclesiastical as well as lay, were nominated to it. But 
those persons, were they ever so interested and energetic, were never 
permitted to go beyond the "advisory" stage of functioning. The reins 
of power were in the tight grasp of the English minister, who saw to 
it that nothing harmful to the English scheme of things would be car- 
ried out. The Congested Districts Board undoubtedly did some good 
work in reinstating evicted tenants on economical holdings, but it car- 
ried out its work with incredible slowness. Since the war it has 
ceased to function— even slowly ; and the excuse is the same excuse 
for every wanton neglect on the English Government's part in Ire- 
land,— the necessity for economy ! Now, this incredible slowness was 
of course purposely planned. The people were told often enough to 
wait in patience, and all would be well. They did wait, and the Board 
crept along with its pretenses, with the result that there are now some 
thousands less in Connaught than there would be had things been 
done expeditiously and conscientiously. "Land for the People !" is 
the open slogan of the Board; emigration is its concealed object. 

" Today this Board is the landlord of thousands of acres of the 
finest land in Connaught. In Roscommon alone, where the situation is 
very acute, it holds close on to 60,000 acres of excellent untenanted 
lands! What the actual area of its possessions in Galway, Mayo, 
Clare, and other counties is, I don't know ; but there is no doubt what- 
ever that those possessions are very considerable in extent and very 
rich in quality. A large proportion of those vast estates, capable of 
supporting a quarter of a million people, are let out in grazing ranches 
to farmers and small holders, whereby an enormous sum is annually 
netted. But again, there are many valuable ranches lying derelict and 
empty, and that, too, in parts of the county where there is serious con- 
gestion. 

IMMEDIATE CAUSES OF RECENT LAND TROUBLE 

" 'The direct causes of the recent trouble would appear to be three- 
fold : 

"'(1) Wilful and incredible slowness on the part of the Congested 
Districts Board; 

"'(2) The maturing of a new generation since the termination of 
the Land War; 

" '(3) The astonishing increase of deep national feeling in the hearts 
of the people, with a resultant determination to live in the country if 
at all possible.' " 

The Witness: I certainly would add a fourth cause here, and that 
is the growth of the Labor movement in Ireland; because, you know, 
the last few years the Transport Workers have organized the peasant 
workers, and they have brought a new spirit into the peasant class 
in Ireland. (Continues reading) : 

" 'The third cause is, I think, the driving force at present. Indeed, 
so strong is this love of the earth of Mother Ireland that, like all 
strong and undirected emotions, it is apt to run amuck at times. In 
point of fact, it actually has led to grave abuse in parts of the country. 
There are certain parishes where, as soon as the fever fell upon them, 



1011 

they proceeded to break down the walls and fences and drive the 
stock of persons but a few acres better off than themselves. Again, 
in many cases they selected the comparatively small man for attack 
when practically at their doors there were boundless acres untenanted 
and often unstocked. 

REPUBLICAN ARBITRATION COURTS A REVELA- 
TION OF EFFICIENCY AND DISPATCH 

" '. . . The Arbitration Courts were a revelation of efficiency and 
dispatch. With the sanction of An Dail, they sprung, as it were, from 
the hearts of the people in order to settle a difficulty which threatened 
to become a menace, and which no foreign tribunal could possibly 
settle. Nothing could surpass the eagerness of the local arbitrators in 
the District Courts to eliminate all prejudice and do plain and simple 
justice to every man, be he landlord or tenant, claimant or resister. 
It was edifying also to follow the testimony of the unsworn witnesses, 
and note the pains they took to be accurate and truthful. I have been 
in English, French, and other foreign courts, but I have never seen 
the business of the judiciary carried on more effectively, if less for- 
mally, or in a more dignified manner than by those plain people of 
the west. "Government in its last analysis," says Woodrow Wilson, 
the man of many saws, "is organized force based on the consent of the 
governed." And again, "In reality, laws which issue from the arbi- 
trary and despotic authority of the few who occupy the central seats 
of the State can never be given full effect unless in one form or an- 
other the power of the community is behind them." And there is no 
manner of doubt that the power of the community supports the law 
and the judiciary of the popular authority west of the Shannon.'" 

ORIGIN AND ORGANIZATION OF REPUBLICAN 

COURTS 

"I have quoted very largely from my article in Young Ireland. I 
wish now briefly to add a few details concerning the construction, the 
workings of, and work done by the Republican Courts. It was the 
land agitation that forced the establishment of the popular courts. 
At the time that the agitation broke out, the British authority in 
nearly the entire country was paralyzed both by the passive attitude of 
the people and the active campaign of the Volunteers. The Royal 
Irish Constabulary were more concerned in hunting down fugitive 
patriots than in attending to the business of averting malefactions and 
in preserving the peace. Thus when the land trouble broke out there 
was nothing to arrest or check it or to encounter it in any manner. 
Western landowners, large and small, came flocking to the Republican 
authorities in Dublin, beseeching them to do something soon, as their 
lives were in jeopardy. All those landlords had received warning 
notices threatening them with death if they did not sell certain por- 
tions of their land; and undoubtedly if things were left to themselves, 
we would have seen the Shaw Taylor tragedy repeated many times. 

"This was the first big test Dail Eireann had to encounter, and it 
faced it resolutely and swiftly and with triumphal success. Out of 
this trouble came the Republican court system. The smallest court 
under the Republic is the Parish Court. It consists of three parish 
justices elected by the people of the parish, subject to a power of veto 
vested in the Dail. Its jurisdiction is practically the same as that of 
the old British petty sessions courts. The next court is the District 
Court. Every Parliamentary constituency is a district ; and this court 
consists of five district justices elected directly by adult citizens of 
both sexes of the district. The jurisdiction of this court is similar to 
that of the British County Court. The next highest court is the Cir- 



1012 

cuit Court, which consists of a Circuit Judge who goes round to the 
chief towns of every District Court and hears appeals, etc. The Cir- 
cuit Judge is a High Court judge, and is appointed directly by the 
Minister for Home Affairs. He must be a lawyer of seven years' 
standing. After this is the Supreme Court of Appeal consisting of 
three Supreme Judges, who never move from the metropolis. Need- 
less to say, they must also be lawyers. 

LAND COURTS UNDER DEPARTMENT OF 
AGRICULTURE 

"All land cases are under a separate jurisdiction. They are under 
the Department of Agriculture, and are tried either at first instance or 
on appeal from the District Courts by Land Judges appointed by the 
Minister of Agriculture. Half of these Land Judges are qualified 
lawyers; the other half qualified lawyers and land valuers. They rank 
as Circuit Judges, and hear all cases of which land is the subject 
matter, subject only to an appeal to the Supreme Court of Appeal. 
Last year these land judges held sittings in ten counties and disposed 
of over four hundred cases. No judge experienced the slightest 
trouble in enforcing his decrees, as public opinion was strongly behind 
him. These land courts claim to have saved the lives of many land- 
owners, to have given general satisfaction, and to have quelled the 
turbulence of the vexed land question." 

The Witness : That answers the question you asked about the work 
of these courts? 
Mr. Manly: Yes. 



LAND COURTS FUNCTION DESPITE MILITARY 
SUPPRESSION 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Then did Dail Eireann have no courts 
until June, 1920? Were those the first courts? A. Well, before 
this decree was issued, they were forming their courts. Because I 
myself was asked to act on one of these courts in the early part of 
the spring. These reports of this land trouble were coming into 
them for a considerable time before they succeeded in getting the 
courts going and setting them up. 

Q. Major Newman: Now, Miss Bennett, have you the details of a 
few of those typical land cases showing the manner in which they 
were settled? A. No, I am sorry I cannot give you that informa- 
tion now. I hope to get it later. 

Mr. Manly: We can furnish the Commission with that information 
from the Bulletin. It gives a list of such cases. 

The Witness: Do you get the Bulletin? 

Mr. Manly: Yes, when it gets through and isn't stopped in the 
mails. 

The Witness: Well, it was their list of cases I wanted to have 
here today. 

Mr. Manly: I think we have the Bulletins giving the cases tried 
before the courts for the first six weeks or two months, giving the 



1013 

general character of the case and the decision and how it was carried 
into effect. And we shall be very glad to give that information to 
the Commission. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: At first these land courts sat openly? 
A. Yes, at first, but not now. They are broken up if they sit openly 
now. I was told in Cork when I passed through on my way here 
that they had a large number of cases awaiting settlement now; but 
they are continually held up there. But in Dublin they are settling 
them. 

LANDOWNERS ACCEPT DECREES OF LAND 
COURTS 

Q. Major Newman : I want to ask you about another phase of this 
matter. The acuteness of the land question was due to the fact that 
there was land tied up in these large estates. Now, in your reference 
you said that the findings of these Land Courts in some of the cases 
were against the claimants. A. Yes, yes. 

Q. Do you know whether in some of these cases there were de- 
crees against the landowners? A. Yes, there were. 

Q. Now, what I want to know is how they enforced these decrees 
against the landowners. A. Well, Kevin O'Shiel told me after 
those first cases the decisions were accepted. Of course, the land is 
purchased — purchased by degrees, you understand. 

Q. And in cases of that kind the landowner accepts? A. They 
accept, yes. 

Q. And what was to be done in cases of that kind was that they 
were to sell the land under these existing legal terms in conformity 
with the previously existing British law? A. Yes. And Kevin 
O'Shiel told me also that there were a number of complicated cases 
which could not be settled in that simple way, and those cases have 
been held over pending the settlement of the political situation. 
They say here in their Decree that they have arranged that "In the 
meanwhile claimants may file particulars of their claims with the 
Registrar of the District Court in which the property is situated." 
In any case, I know that O'Shiel told me that he had a number of 
cases come up before him which he could not settle out in court 
in that way, and in these cases the parties agreed that the case should 
be held over until the country was more settled. They arrived at a 
compromise, in other words. 

JUSTICE RATHER THAN LAW DETERMINES 
DECISIONS OF LAND COURTS 

Q. Major Newman: Now, these courts have a settled code of 
laws? Has the Dail got out a special code of laws for Ireland, or 



1014 

are they using the laws they have, the laws that have grown up in 
Ireland during the past centuries? A. No. You see, they have 
had very few meetings during the last six months. 

Q. These courts? A. No, the Dail. And their attention then, 
as you would think, would be to attend to the emergencies of the 
moment in Ireland. 

Q. And they have enacted no codes of law, then? A. No, no. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Well, you see, these codes are being gradually 
built up from the usages of the country and precedents on a basis of 
fact. As a matter of fact, is it not true that these courts are carrying 
out the work which the Congested Districts Board failed to do? A. 
Yes, that is it. 

Q. The Congested Districts Board was created to handle the land 
question, but they had failed, for some reason, to solve the con- 
gested land situation. Then this recent wave of land hunger arose, 
and these Land Courts were formed, and they have successfully 
handled the cases which the Congested Districts Board failed to 
handle? A. Exactly. 

Q. And their decisions are given on the basis of the rights and 
wrongs, irrespective of rules of law anywhere, are they not? A. 
Yes, yes. I think that is the great value of these arbitration courts. 

ONE-THIRD OF LAND STILL IN LARGE ESTATES 

Commissioner Howe: Are most of these large owners Irish or 
English now? A. They are mostly Irish, I think. 

Miss Townshend: The Land Bill did not apply to many of these 
large holdings. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: About one-third of the land remains 
undivided, does it not? A. Yes. 

Q. Major Newman: About 60 per cent, of the land is now owned 
by the Irish, is it not? A. Yes. 

FINANCIAL CRISIS CONFRONTS LOCAL COUNCILS 

We take it for granted that you know about the county and local 
councils and the elections of this year, and that the majority of the 
county and local councils went Sinn Fein. And these councils, you 
see, the Local Government Board, the British Local Government 
Board, control to a great extent by the money grants that are given 
supplementary to the rates to carry out certain reforms. In this 
way the Local Government Board control them. And over this 
question a great crux has arisen. Miss Townshend has a paper, a 
statement of the difficulty that has arisen over the financial condition 
of the county and local councils. 



1015 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Perhaps we had better have that now. 
A. Yes. 

Commissioner Addams: Then Miss Townshend can read that. Has 
Miss Townshend given her name and address? 

Commissioner Howe: No, she has not. 

TESTIMONY OF CAROLINE M. TOWNSHEND 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Miss Townshend, will you please 
give the Commission your name? A. Caroline Mary Townshend. 

Q. And where do you live, Miss Townshend? A. Glendower, 
County Cork. 

Q. And your religion, Miss Townshend? A. Well, I come 
from a Protestant family also. 

Q. And a Unionist family? A. A Unionist family also. 

Q. Mr. Manly: What denomination? A. I was brought up in 
the Protestant Episcopal Church. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Were your family of English de- 
scent? A. Yes, on my mother's side we came over from England 
under Strongbow, and I have also some Celtic blood. 

WHY LOCAL COUNCILS REPUDIATED BRITISH 
LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD 

Q. This paper you are just about to read, Miss Townshend, is 
about the councils? It was written about the present situation of the 
councils? A. Yes. I have two papers, which supplement each 
other. 

Q. Who has written this paper? A. A member who is on the 
council. You will tell me if you cannot understand me. I am not 
used to reading aloud. 

"The local administration of Ireland is in the hands of the County 
Councils, Rural District 'Councils, Urban Councils, Town Commis- 
sions, and Boards of Guardians ; and was hitherto under the super- 
vision of the Local Government Board. The levying of compensation 
for malicious injuries on the counties' rates was the first thing that 
led to the councils' disowning the Local Government Board and sepa- 
rating themselves from it. They disclaimed responsibility. Malicious 
injuries include the burning of town halls, creameries, private houses, 
and also empty police barracks to prevent their being reoccupied by 
military." 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Now, who is supposed to have burned 
these town halls, houses, and creameries? A. Well, the Crown 
forces. That is the belief of the writer of this paper. (Continues 
reading) : 



1016 

WITHHOLDING OF GRANTS A DECLARATION OF 
WAR UPON SICK AND POOR 

"They include also compensation for murders of civilians. The 
banks were the treasurers of the councils, and could cash a check for 
any amount awarded in court. To safeguard the funds, the treasurer- 
ship was removed from the banks. The government's response was to 
stop all so-called grants in aid of hospitals, lunatic asylums, sanatoria, 
salaries of medical officers, and technical education. These grants 
had been made out of Irish sources of revenue in the control of the 
Treasury. The rates thus had to cover the whole cost of local ad- 
ministration, and under the circumstances the boards refused to allow 
the Government to audit their accounts. The County, Urban, and 
Rural Councils are delaying payment of annuities on loans for public 
works, laborers' cottages, and so forth, until a settlement is come to 
between Dail Eireann and the English Government. 

"The next step of the English Government was to empower the 
Local Government Board to proceed by writ of mandamus against the 
councils and boards. This the Local Government Board is doing in 
certain cases, naming individual members, costs to be levied on the 
defendants. These actions are now pending. The refusal by the 
English Government of the grants as above is not only a declaration 
of war upon the sick in hospital, but also upon the feeblest of the 
poor, to whom outdoor relief may have to be denied." 

The Witness: I think that is all of that. The other paper is sup- 
plementary to that. 

Q. Commissioner Maurer: Who is that from? A. This is from 
a member of a board. I do not know whether I would care to give 
his name. I know him personally. I went down and got it from 
him first-hand. (Reading) : 

IRISH LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUCCEEDS DESPITE 
BRITISH OBSTRUCTION AND DESTRUCTION 

"The Local Government Department of Dail Eireann is at present 
the authority which controls and supervises local administration in 
twenty-nine counties of Ireland. ■ In spite of difficulties of communica- 
tion, it is receiving and dealing with the minutes of the meetings of 
Llie local authorities throughout the country. Its instructions are 
obeyed, and its advice and assistance sought in the problems that con- 
front the Councils and Boards of Guardians ; and despite all ob- 
structive tactics of the English Government, the people through their 
representatives on local boards turn naturally and enthusiastically to 
the native administration, the creation of their own will democratically 
expressed. The machinery of the English Department is idle, re- 
jected by the people. The clerks in the custom house spend their day, 
some at novels, and some few studying Irish. The latest reports of 
the internal conditions of the boycotted institution are to the effect 
that its higher officials definitely despair of ever again regaining their 
control of local administration, and are now bent on a course of ob- 
structive and destructive tactics in the hope of wrecking local admin- 
istration, thereby inflicting great hardships on the most helpless sec- 
tions of the community, — the sick in the hospitals, the poor who are 
depending on outdoor relief, the mentally unsound in the asylums 
which are maintained by the County Councils. The sequence of events 
leading to this result is as follows : 



1017 

ENGLISH "GRANTS" TAKEN FROM IRISH TAXES 

"Early last summer the English Government declared its intention 
of setting all 'grants' in aid of local administration against decrees for 
'Criminal and Malicious Injuries.' These terms call for explanation. 
The so-called 'grants' amount to about a million and a half pounds per 
annum, doled out by the English Government to the local bodies for 
various services, such as care of lunatics, prevention and treatment of 
tuberculosis and other medical relief to the poor, maintenance of roads, 
etc. It should be kept well in mind that this sum represents (or repre- 
sented) the contribution of the English Government to the internal 
administration of the country, while about forty million pounds an- 
nually is paid by the people in taxation. The rest of the burden is 
borne by the people in local rates struck and levied by the County 
Councils. So much for the 'grants.' 

"CRIMINAL AND MALICIOUS INJURIES ACTS" 
LEVY COSTS OF WAR UPON VICTIMS 

"Let us now consider the 'Criminal and Malicious Injury Decrees.' 
These are decrees granted in the English Courts against local authori- 
ties in compensation for damage to person or property in a particular 
area. The amounts are included in the local rates, and are levied from 
the rate payers of the area in which the damage occurs. The 'Crimi- 
nal Injuries Act' applies only to servants, of the English Government. 
It deals with injuries to the person. By its terms the English Gov- 
ernment is enabled to levy huge sums in compensation to the relatives 
of any member of its armed forces who is killed or wounded while 
waging war on the Irish people. The operations of this Act have led 
to developments that would be ludicrous if one could forget the plun- 
der they involved. Policemen have been solemnly awarded hundreds 
of pounds because of a kick in the shin received or alleged to have 
been received while arresting a drunken man. Strictly speaking, under 
the terms of this Act the injury is supposed to be received as a result 
of an illegal political combination, but this trifle is usually disposed of 
by the policeman claiming compensation swearing that someone 
amongst the onlookers shouted 'Up de Valera', — evidence which His 
Majesty's judges find ample to establish that the injury arises from 
an 'illegal combination.' Putting the matter quite baldly, this com- 
pensation to armed forces of the Crown or their relatives is an at- 
tempt to make the Irish people pay for a war against themselves. 
They are not only to have their throats cut by Sir H. Greenwood's 
Black-and-Tans, but they are to pay liberally for the knife. 

The 'Malicious Injuries Act' is fundamentally reasonable and just, 
supposing normal conditions under just and popular Government to 
exist. It provides that where damage is done to property in any area 
the injured person can claim compensation in the courts, and the sum 
awarded must be included in the local rates, and be borne by the rate 
payers of the area in which the damage occurs. It makes it the in- 
terest of the inhabitants of an area to see that property is respected. 
But here again the Irish people pay for the knife to cut their throats. 
The armed forces of the Crown have looted, burned, and wrecked 
from end to end of Ireland, and the Irish people are, through their 
Councils, put in the dock as defendants and have damages awarded 
against them. Even judges on the English bench have been moved to 
comment on the tragic irony. The County Councils have been in- 
structed not to appear as defendants in these cases, as to do so would 
seem to. lend solemnity to a farce and acquiescence to plunder. But 
judgment is marked against the county councils in every case in which 
a claim is made, and the farce goes merrily on ; the plunder also, since 
it is to meet these claims that the 'grants' are being withheld. 



1018 

ENGLAND WITHHOLDS GRANTS TO PAY FOR 
DAMAGE DONE BY HER AGENTS 

"Jt is worth pausing to consider the position of a Republican whose 
premises are gutted by Sir Hamar Greenwood's Black-and-Tans, — 
assassination or the burning of one's home or business premises is 
now the routine penalty for prominence in the Republican movement. 
The theory of the matter is this: the injured Republican is supposed 
to enter his claim in the English courts and have damages awarded 
against his neighbors and friends by decree against the County Coun- 
cil. For the most part no claims are lodged in such cases. Some few 
lodge claims, but merely for the purpose of record. The damage done 
by Crown forces in Ireland must now amount to many millions of 
pounds, so that even on the assumption of payment out of the 'grants' 
that have been withheld, it would take many years to compensate these 
victims of Black-and-Tan playfulness. The 'grants' are being with- 
held because the Councils would not agree to include in the rates sums 
awarded for these 'Criminal and Malicious Injuries.' It was only 
after the announcement of the English Government that these 'grants' 
would not be paid that Dail Eireann decided to call on the public bodies 
to cut clear from the English Local Government Board and to func- 
tion henceforth solely under the authority of the Local Government 
Department of Dail Eireann. That course was not taken earlier be- 
cause the Ministry of Dail Eireann was reluctant to put on already 
heavily overburdened people the additional strain that the loss of these 
'grants' would involve. When the 'grants' were no longer a factor in 
the situation, it was felt that the only adequate retort was to cut clear 
from the foreign institution." 

Q. Commissioner Addams: As I understand it, they were going 
to pay the fines for malicious injuries out of these grants? A. Yes. 

Q. But I thought that under the Malicious Injuries Act damages 
had to be paid by the community? A. Mr. Manly: But these grants 
were given to the communities by the Local Government Board. 

Q. We were told before that if a malicious injury suit was won, 
the damages had to be paid for out of the funds of that locality. A. 
Mr. Manly: Yes, but this is a grant to that locality. 

A. Miss Bennett: Well, I think this explains it: they would not 
strike a rate to pay for the malicious injuries, so the Local Govern- 
ment Board said, "Very well, if you will not pay it out of the rates, 
we will take it out of the grants." 

The Witness (continuing reading) : 

IRISH PUBLIC BODIES RENOUNCE ENGLISH 
CONTROL 

"On the order of Dail Eireann, the public bodies of Ireland ceased 
all communication with the English Local Government Board. Min- 
utes of meetings and all other returns that it was customary to make 
to that institution were forwarded instead to the Local Government 
Department of Dail Eireann, which now began to develop to meet the 
requirements of the new situation. Auditors of the English Depart- 
ment were refused access to the accounts of public bodies; their in- 
spectors were refused entry to public institutions, and local adminis- 
tration in Ireland entered definitely on a new phase. 

"The English Government is now stating that the 'grants' are being 



r 1019 

withheld from Irish public bodies because they refuse to submit their 
accounts to audits by officials of the English Local Government Board. 
This is not correct. The public bodies of Ireland did not repudiate 
and were not asked to repudiate the English Local Government Board 
until the 'grants' in aid of local administration were withheld. The 
present position is that the Irish public bodies are functioning in non- 
recognition of the English Local Government Board, and in full and 
complete recognition of and obedience to the Local Government De- 
partment of Dail Eireann. Control of the internal administration of 
Ireland has passed from the English to the native government, from 
the Government based on the sword and bullet to the Government 
based on the people's will. 

RIGOROUS ECONOMIES AND REFORMS EFFECTED 

"But the financial position is undeniably serious. Let it be remem- 
bered that all the estimates for the current year were made on the as- 
sumption that the 'grants' would be paid as heretofore. Despite the 
most rigid economy and schemes of reform which show the adminis- 
trative genius of the people, the loss of the million and a half pounds 
is being keenly felt. Finance is the essence of the situation. The 
economies and reforms are for the most part of a kind that will take 
some time to bear fruit. Take the most important one that is adopted, 
the scheme for the pooling of contracts by the public bodies. Hitherto 
each local authority contracted for its own needs' and for the public 
institutions under its care. The new scheme is to have the contracts 
for all the public bodies and public institutions of Ireland made 
through a Central Purchasing Committee in the Capital. It is obvious 
that by contracting and purchasing in very large quantities, instead of 
having each local authority contracting in small quantities for its own 
needs, a very great saving can be effected. Moreover, it is hoped that 
this scheme will give much needed support and stimulus to native 
industries." 

Commissioner Addams : Thank you very much. I think that gives 
us the clearest idea we have had of the conditions of the local gov- 
ernment in Ireland. I think that is all now, unless you have some 
questions to ask, Mr. Manly? ■ 

Mr. Manly: No, we can take that up this afternoon. 

Commissioner Addams: All right. Then we will reconvene at 
two. 

(Thereupon, at 12:48 P. M., the Commission adjourned for the 
noon recess.) 

2:08 P. M. 

Commissioner Addams (presiding) : The Commission will be in 
session. The two Irish ladies who testified this morning have still 
two topics to give us. 

TESTIMONY ON RECALL OF MISS LOUIE 

BENNETT 

Miss Bennett : One is the influence of the recent Labor movement, 
and its influence on the general situation; and the other is this much 
vexed question of the religious issue, — how far the religious issue 
enters into the general situation. 



1020 

Commissioner Addams : Miss Bennett is identified with the Labor 
movement in Ireland in various ways, and will give us this topic. 

The Witness: Miss Addams, I am just not quite sure what the 
Commission would like to know with regard to the Labor movement. 
Is it just the action that it has taken in this recent conflict? 

Q. I think so; its action in the recent conflict and its influence 
in the conflict that has gone on. A. Yes. 

Q. And the possibility of changing that somewhat in character 
owing to the existence of the Labor movement. A. Yes, yes. 

STRENGTH OF IRISH LABOR MOVEMENT 

It is so extremely difficult to gauge the forces of the Labor 
movement in Ireland at the present time, because the interests of the 
people seem to be so much absorbed in the purely political question. 
The trades unions have grown enormously in the last five years, and 
one might say that the workers of Ireland are well organized, and 
they are organizing fastly in. one large union, the Irish Transport 
Union, which was Larkin's union originally, and was just meant for 
general workers, for unskilled workers. But since Larkin's time the 
Transport Workers have enlarged their scope, and are taking in all 
classes of people, men and women both. And there is no doubt but 
that the Transport Workers have considerable power in the country 
at the present time; and I should think they will have greater power 
in the future when things are more settled. 

IRISH BRANCHES SEPARATING FROM ENGLISH 

UNIONS 

One other point in regard to the Labor movement in Ireland. 
There are two classes of trades unions: there are what we call the 
amalgamated unions and the branches, as well as the purely Irish 
unions. The amalgamated unions are branches of the English 
unions. And during the past year there has been a very strong 
movement among the Irish workers to break away from the English 
workers — the amalgamated unions, so that there shall be only Irish 
unions in Ireland. The most remarkable break in that line is the 
A. S. E., — Associated Society of Engineers, a very strong union; 
and all of the men of the engineering works in Ireland were origi- 
nally in this English union, the Irish branch of the A. S. E. But in 
the early part of 1920 a group broke away from the A. S. E. and 
formed an Irish union; and in the nine or ten months since this was 
organized they have drawn in a very strong lot of the engineering 
workers in southern Ireland. Indeed, people up in Ulster, — I am not 
speaking now of the Ulster situation at all; but a number of the 



1021 

workers in Ulster have joined the new Irish union. And they have 
bought for themselves a very large, fine house in Dublin for head- 
quarters. Another large union is the N. U. R., the National Union of 
Railwaymen. The railwaymen are all organized in a branch of the 
English National Union of Railwaymen; but the trend of the whole 
labor movement in Ireland at the present time is to become inde- 
pendent of the English trade unionists, and the railwaymen are 
bound to break away in a short time. But strange to say, while this 
movement persists, a much closer relation between the British Trades 
Unions Congress and the Irish Trades Unions Congress has been set 
up. Today the official Labor Party, — the Irish Labor Party, is work- 
ing on a similar policy for a close association with the British Labor 
Party. But at the same time, among the rank and file there is a 
strong tendency to break away from British trades unionists. 

BRITISH LABOR PARTY ACKNOWLEDGES IRE- 
LAND'S RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION 

Of course you know very well the attitude that the British Labor 
Party have taken towards Ireland lately. They had a mission to Ire- 
land in the spring, and they made another investigation lately; and 
they have gradually come around to the view of the Irish Labor 
Party with regard to the Irish situation. When Henderson and his 
party first came to Ireland in the spring, they would not hear any- 
thing else but dominion home rule; — that Ireland should have the 
right of self-determination outside the Empire, they could not see 
that. And they said it was inconceivable that any group of people 
in the world should be so extraordinarily stupid as to wish to stand 
outside the great and noble British Empire. And when we brought 
up the crimes of British imperialism, and proved that it was guilty 
in common with all other imperialism, they said, "No, our great 
British Empire is not guilty of any such thing." They would not 
believe it. But this time when they came over they saw the neces- 
sity of acknowledging the Jrish people's right to self-determination 
outside the Empire. But I am sure that in the bottom of Mr. Hen- 
derson's heart there still lurks a desire that Ireland should stay 
within the British Empire. 

Q. Major Newman: Was Mr. Henderson a member of both 
Commissions? A. Yes, he was. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: And they have just printed their 
second report? A. Yes. 

RANK AND FILE OF IRISH LABOR WHOLLY 
ABSORBED IN POLITICAL STRUGGLE 

Now, with regard to Irish Labor policy. I should say that the 
rank and file are too much absorbed by the national political silua- 



1022 

tion to be much concerned about other matters. The leaders have a 
progressive program in the back of their minds, but they cannot 
put it forward at the present time, — I mean by that a more socialistic 
program. They cannot put it forward at the present time because 
of the absorption of the rank and file with the political position. 
The real desire of the rank and file is not so much for social reform' 
now as it is for changed political conditions. The rank and file have 
taken political action and brought about certain changes which have 
never originated with the leaders or been desired by them, but has 
come from the rank and file itself. That has happened in three 
cases. The first was the case in Limerick where a policeman was 
shot in conflict with a Sinn Feiner. The friends of the Sinn Feiner, 
— he was in a prison hospital, tried to get into the hospital and res- 
cue him. The boy was shot in his bed where he lay, and a police- 
man was also shot. That gave rise to the action of the British Gov- 
ernment that nobody could go outside the city without a permit. 
Well, some of the biggest factories of Limerick lie outside the city; 
and the British Government demanded that they ask for a permit in 
order to go from their homes out to their work outside the city 
every morning. The workers refused to ask, without the consent of 
their leaders, and said they would not go to work if they had to ask 
the British Government for a permit. Thomas Johnson, who was 
secretary of the Irish Labor Party, went down to Limerick to get 
this straightened out. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: It was not a strike against the em- 
ployers at all, but against the regulations? A. Yes, against the 
regulation. But in the end they were beaten for want of funds. I 
think it was due to some mistake made in the organization, but any- 
way, they were beaten. But this permit order was rescinded. It 
was not carried on. That was the first stand made against the Gov- 
ernment by the workers themselves. 

The second occasion was the motor restriction made the first of 
this year. Very complicated and strict restrictions were made upon 
taxi and motor drivers, the Government said with a view to prevent 
them carrying the "rebels" and aiding "these outrages." The taxi 
drivers went on strike against this permit order. The LTnion took it 
up, and it had to be taken up very much more generally than among 
the drivers themselves, for many of the motor drivers are members 
of the Transport Union, and it became a rather large strike. But 
the officials of the Labor movement, I think, did not like this strike, 
and they didn't want it to go very far. It went on for several weeks, 
and it was settled in the end in a compromise. Neither side gave in. 



1023 

LABOR COMPELS RELEASE OF HUNGER 
STRIKERS 

Before I tell you about the third case of strike without the leaders' 
consent, I want to say that the Labor movement now involves con- 
siderable solidarity. Whenever a labor question arises, — for in- 
stance, when there was a large number of Irish workers on hunger- 
strike in Mountjoy prison, then the Labor Party called for a general 
strike. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: That is, the Irish Labor Party? A. 
Yes, the Irish Labor Party. The Labor Party called for a general 
strike to compel the Government to release these hunger strikers. 
The response to it was instantaneous and general, although it meant 
danger of dismissal and loss of money and everything else. But I 
can speak of my own trade union women : there was not a single 
case in which the workers objected to refuse to work. That strike 
went on for three days, when the hunger strikers were released. 
There was tremendous enthusiasm in Dublin over that strike. You 
know the people were all outside the prison praying. The day the 
hunger strikers were released, I could not get up there myself, but 
I know of the demonstration. There was a marvelous demonstra- 
tion. The people were so tremendously serious over it; it was a 
very serious and solemn demonstration. And one would imagine 
that in a general strike like that there would be all sorts of dis- 
turbances and the people would get careless. Nothing of the sort. 
I have been in Dublin in both general strikes, and there has been 
perfect quiet right throughout the city. There have been no riots or 
disturbances of any kind. 

Q. Major Newman: Mountjoy is a prison in Dublin? A. Yes, 
Mountjoy Prison is in Dublin. I do not just remember what the 
other occasion was, but at any rate whenever there has been a call 
of that kind, the people have responded to it in the same sort of way, 
with the same spontaneity and unanimity. 

IRISH RAILWAYMEN STRIKE AGAINST TRANS- 
PORT OF ARMED TROOPS AND WAR 
MUNITIONS 
Q. Commissioner Addams: Now, was the action of the Railway- 
men in refusing to carry munitions, was that spontaneity, or was that 
ordered? A. I was going to tell you about that, for that has been 
one of the most interesting developments of the year. I have notes 
here on how that originated. You know, until this year there has 
not been any strong feeling against the soldiers in Ireland, — I mean 
as individuals. Of course there is a strong opposition to the army 
of occupation. But between individuals there has been a lot of good 



1024 

feeling. Bitterness has only arisen between the people and the army 
since the Black-and-Tans came along. It was May 13, 1920. You 
may remember that the question arose of the threatened war with 
Russia, and the workers of England refused to carry munitions of 
war for Poland to use against Russia. And the workers of Ireland 
then, — some of the dockers and some of the railwaymen, said: "Why 
should not we refuse to carry munitions of war for the British to 
fight against our own people?" And this strike originated quite 
suddenly upon the docks among the workers of the Transport Union. 
On May 20th they refused to discharge war material from a steamer 
on the North Wharf. The British dockers had already refused, on 
May 1 5th, in fact to load the Jolly George with munitions for 
Poland. Then on May 21st J. H. Thomas, the National Union of 
Railwaymen's executive, said he had ordered the British railwaymen 
not to handle the munitions for Poland. On the 24th the Cork rail- 
waymen took it up, and said they would refuse to handle munitions 
for Ireland, and they started the railway strike in that way. The 
Labor Party realized that this strike was likely to become an ex- 
tremely big and serious thing, and they decided that they would 
limit it as far as possible. And they decided that they would not 
call out all the men; they limited it as far as possible. And the 
limitation meant this, — that it was only when armed soldiers or 
Black-and-Tans boarded the trains that the engine driver should re- 
fuse to drive that train. That is how the thing was carried out 
everywhere. Whenever the armed military boarded the train, the 
driver or guard refused that the train should go; and then the en- 
gine driver or the guard were dismissed. It did not mean that the 
whole crew would be dismissed. So for a long time they kept this 
strike within certain bounds. But the military forces kept on. On 
certain lines they persistently boarded the trains time after time, and 
the trains got held up. And gradually sections of the lines, except 
in the north, and even some of the side lines in the north, were 
closed up; and trains were limited on the other lines. And grad- 
ually, of course, we were getting in a kind of strangle-hold regard- 
ing the railroad traffic. The numbers of men out were increasing 
every week. The response for funds for these men throughout the 
country was very unusual. Right from the beginning of this strike 
to the end they were able to pay each man at least two pounds a 
week. Some of the men got three pounds a week, but no man got 
less than two pounds a week who was out of work. The last week 
of the strike it meant that they were paying out £700,000 a week. 
And none of this money was paid out by the National Union of 
Railwaymen, because they said it was an illegal strike. The men 
had no right to come out on strike without the consent of their 
leaders. Some of the English unions contributed, but the great mass 
was contributed by the Irish unions themselves. 



1025 

LABOR PLANS FOOD SUPPLY FOR NATION 

In the beginning of November Mr. Geddes announced that if the 
railwaymen continued to refuse to handle munitions, all the rail- 
roads in Ireland would be closed down. And this was the issue that 
the Irish railwaymen had to face: the complete shut-down of the 
Irish railways. Various plans went on behind the scenes. A trade 
union congress was called late in November to decide what they 
were going to do. Meanwhile, the Irish Labor Party were in touch 
with Dail Eireann and other members of Sinn Fein drawing up 
plans as to what they would do in the event of the closing down of 
the railways. Thomas Johnson himself told me that they had quite 
complete plans drawn up for the continuing of the food supply. It 
had to be a very elaborate business. The coast towns were all right, 
because they could arrange to carry food by boat. Inland it was a 
very difficult problem, but they had all their plans made, and the 
committee had gone into it very carefully and had decided in detail 
what would be done. The Government raided their offices then and 
carried away their plans. They also brought out a very drastic 
motor order, which meant — and it is still in effect — that motor traffic 
could not be carried on in a wider area than twenty miles outside of 
the district in which this particular motor was registered. So that 
meant that motor traffic could not be used in the event of the closing 
down of the railways. Some other method had to be used. 

TRADE UNION CONGRESS SUPPORTS 
MUNITIONS STRIKE 

Then they had this Trade Union Congress. I will see if I have 
the date. I know it was in November. The Trade Union Congress 
was held on November 16th. The Trade Union Congress was a 
Congress of all the workers of Ireland, not to order the railwaymen 
as to what they should do, but to express the wish of the Irish Labor 
movement as to what they thought it would be well for the railway- 
men to do, whether they were to give in or whether they should con- 
tinue that strike against the carrying of munitions. It was a very 
large Congress. There was close to a thousand delegates there. It 
was a very serious and. a very quiet Congress, the most serious of 
any congress I have ever attended. It did not have the great en- 
thusiasm of some previous congresses. Thomas Johnson, who was 
the secretary of the Union, put the case before them in, I may say. 
a very fine and idealistic way, and he got a tremendous response. 
That strike was going to affect every man in the place, because a 
railway strike means not only that the railwaymen would go out, 
but that every man there would go out on account of the closing 
clown of industry. The Congress went on all day long, and in the 



1026 

end they recommended that the railwaymen should stick it out and 
should refuse to handle munitions. I will read you now the resolu- 
tion that was carried. First of all, this resolution was carried ad- 
vising the railwaymen to hold out; hut I should add that in the rail- 
way union there are a group of older men, a kind of stolid lot of 
men, and this older group was in favor of giving in. They moved 
that an honorable settlement should be made, but they did not say 
what that meant, — they did not know what they themselves meant 
by "an honorable settlement." And of course, Mr. Thomas of the 
English Railwaymen's Union, his policy was that they should give 
in and carry munitions. But the Congress did not give in; they de- 
cided they would support the Irish railwaymen to the very end. I 
remember there was one man from Donegal who said, "We have got 
to stick it out, and if we have got to run across the fields and carry 
the food on our bare backs, why, then we will stick it out." And 
that was the spirit of the people. We women were criticized be- 
cause we also encouraged the men to stick it out, — we women dele- 
gates who were there at that time. 

IRISH LABOR INDORSES SETTLEMENT DRAFTED 
BY BRITISH LABOR PARTY 

But also at that Congress they drafted a platform that had some 
very important and interesting points in it. (Reading) : 

"This Conference, representative of organized labor in Ireland, wel- 
comes that statement of policy made by the leader of the Labor Party 
in the House of Commons, Mr. Adamson, speaking on behalf of the 
British Labor Movement, in declaring for: 

"(1) The withdrawal of the British armed forces from Ireland; 

"(2) The calling of a Constituent Assembly elected on the basis of 
proportional representation by a free, equal, and secret vote ; 

"(3) That such assembly should draw up a Constitution for Ireland, 
on the understanding that such Constitution shall be made operative, 
subject only to two conditions, namely, that it affords protection to 
minorities, and that the Constitution shall prevent Ireland from be- 
coming a military or naval menace. 

"This Conference declares, on behalf of the Irish Labor Movement, 
its readiness to advocate the acceptance of this policy as being the ful- 
filment of Ireland's demand for the right to choose and decide its own 
form of government, and assures the British workers that the realiza- 
tion of the policy outlined will lead to good-will and fraternity be- 
tween the two peoples. 

"And further, we indorse the statement already made by our Na- 
tional Executive to the leaders of the British Trade Union Move- 
ment, that the only obstacle to peace and good order in Ireland is the 
presence of the British armed forces; and we indorse with confidence 
the assurance they have given that the withdrawal of these forces 
from any district, leaving responsibility and power for the mainte- 
nance of order to the popularly elected representatives, will secure 
peace and good government in that district." 



1027 

IRELAND NOT INTERESTED IN AGGRESSIVE WAR 

The Witness: Now, there are two points, of course, in regard to 
this resolution. And one point was raised in particular, — that it 
meant that Ireland would have no power over the army or navy, 
and would have no army or navy of its own. And some of the 
members of the Congress raised that point and objected. They 
were not prepared to yield that right. But other speakers replied 
that in the future the Republic of Ireland would not want to have 
armed forces; that Ireland would have enough to do with a con- 
structive policy to build up her own nation; that she was not out 
for war; and that it was the business of the Labor Party of each 
country to see that aggressive war — and that would be the only kind 
of war in which Ireland was interested — should be abolished. And 
there were only three dissensions to that policy in that Labor Con- 
gress. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: That was in November, 1920? A. 
Yes, November 16, 1920. 

MUNITIONS STRIKE CANCELLED TO PREVENT 
SUFFERING OF PEOPLE 

Well, then, it meant that in the meantime this committee that was 
arranging for the transport of food, should go on with its work. It 
was urged that a committee should be appointed from the Congress 
to lay the case of the striking railwaymen before the British labor 
unions and get their support. But the thing went on for several 
weeks, up to Sunday, November 21st. On Sunday, November 21st, 
14 British officers were shot down in Dublin, the British Government 
said by Sinn Feiners. Well, you know, of course, the feeling that 
aroused, and Dublin was put under the strictest kind of martial 
law. On Monday night I know there were many people who never 
got home at all ; they were held up by the armed forces. The whole 
city was raided, and large numbers were arrested. There were 
wholesale arrests, including some of the most important members 
of this food committee ; and others of them had to be so much on the 
run that it was not possible for them to get together at all. The 
arrests were simply extraordinary in the wholesale and arbitrary 
way they were made. When the raiders closed down on the mem- 
bers of this committee, and the men who held the strings of the food 
supply were arrested, it meant that the food supply had to be prac- 
tically in the hands of the Irish Volunteers. And if they could not 
act, the thing could not be done. The Labor Party office was raided 
and everything they had was taken from it, as well as the plans of 
the food supply committee. But still they did not give in. And 
then came the burning of Cork, and the proclamation of martial 



1028 

law throughout many districts. And then Tom Johnson' and several 
other leaders told me that to call a strike at that time would leave 
the people too much at the mercy of the armed forces, and would 
put them in a very bad position. And therefore the strike was 
called off. 

But we who were pacifists and who, I might say, were in favor 
of a constitutional movement against the British Government, were 
very much disappointed, because We felt that the energies of the 
Volunteers would be called wholly into the distribution of food 
supply, and they would be so busy with that that other things could 
not be done. A movement of that sort would have proved so com- 
pletely that the people were behind the Republican Government 
that the British Government could no longer claim that it was only 
a matter of capturing "the murder gang" and the whole thing would 
be ended. It would have shown that the men and the women and 
the children of the nation were all in it. It seems to me that it was 
a pity the thing could not be carried out, because it would have 
been a very fine and effective demonstration of the unanimity of the 
Irish people. 

Q. Major Newman: I would like to ask you a question on that 
point, Miss Bennett. Of course the refusal of the employees to 
carry armed soldiers or munitions of war resulted in the stoppage 
of the running of trains, did it not? A. Yes, it did. 

Q. Did that react very severely on the people in the way of get- 
ting supplies? A. It did not react so badly on the getting of food, 
but it threw a good many workers out of work and made it difficult 
for them. And certainly business men felt it very keenly. 

Q. Did it result in hardship on the people generally? A. Well, 
I would not say that it did. It did in special cases, bu^ I would not 
say in a general way. It had not gone so far as that. 

Q. Do you think that one of the reasons for the failure of the 
railway strike was the hardships that it would involve? I mean, of 
course, the hardships upon their own people. A. No, I don't think 
it was, because they were prepared for that. 

Q. But do you think that that was one of the reasons for calling 
off the strike? A. Well, I think they realized that on account of 
the condition of the country at that juncture that it would finally 
result in serious hardship for a great many people. 

Q. Had it resulted in any serious hardship up to that time? A. 
No, not up to that time; nothing serious. And of course the men 
were being paid such an allowance that they did not feel any great 
hardship up to that time. 

Q. But I meant the people of the country? A. No, no; it had 
not gone on that far. In isolated districts, perhaps, but not gen- 
erally. But if it had continued, it would have had a very serious 
effect. And I think that much of the unemployment that we are 



1029 

now suffering from is due lo the holding up of supplies of all kinds. 
Is there anything further? 

SERIOUSNESS OF UNEMPLOYMENT 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Do the Irish workers come under the 
British unemployment insurance act? A. Yes, they did. Of 
course, some of us feel that the Irish Labor Party ( I say that this 
is what some of us feel ; it may not be general ) , but some of us 
feel that the Irish Labor Party has not taken a strong enough atti- 
tude towards British rule as it affects them. For instance, over that 
unemployment benefit, they ought to have been quick enough to get 
up something of their own and not have to take that from England. 

Q. Major Newman: But they had paid for it, we understood. A. 
Yes, they paid for it; yes, yes. 

Q. But they had paid for it in past year, we understood. A. 
No, this new act was something extraordinary to meet the present 
unemployment. It is very interesting how it is done. At first 
when it started workers who were out of employment four weeks 
were entitled to benefits. Now any unemployment of the worker, 
whether his card is stamped or not, entitles him to benefits. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: When was that passed? A. Just a 
few weeks ago. 

Q. In the English Parliament? A. Yes. 

Q. Major Newman: Does that apply to Ireland? A. Yes. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Are the workingmen taking it? A. 
Yes, they are. They believe in taking all they can get. 

Q. But you have not as much unemployment in Ireland as they 
have in England? A. No, we have not. But in Cork it is now 
very serious. And in Belfast it is going to be as serious as it is in 
England at present. The shipyards, and of course the linen mills, 
are going *to be held up. 

Q. We have had some testimony of the growth of the labor 
movement in Ulster, crossing over religious lines and bringing the 
people together in a very interesting way. The Gaelic League, it 
seems, has done the same thing. Perhaps, Miss Townshend, you 
would tell us something about that? 

CONTINUED TESTIMONY OF MISS 
CAROLINE TOWNSHEND 

GAELIC LEAGUE HAS OVERCOME RELIGIOUS 
PREJUDICES 

A. Miss Townshend: Yes, these papers, that were sent on to us 
today, deal with that. Miss Nellie O'Brien, who is also a Protestant 
Episcopalian, tells what Dr. Douglas Hyde, an Episcopalian and 



1030 

for twenty years years President of the Gaelic League, says about it. 
But perhaps it is too long. 

Commissioner Addams: Well, perhaps you can just give its main 
points and put it into the evidence. 

Miss Townshend : Of course, she shows the wonderful way in 
which the Gaelic League has crossed over religious prejudices. 

Commissioner Addams ( to the Commission I : Would you like to 
hear that? 

Q. Commissioner Howe: Is it very long? A. Five or six pages. 

Major Newman: Well, we would like to hear it. 

Mr. Manly: I will read it if you like. 

The Witness: Thank you, sir. 

Commissioner Addams: I understand that this was sent to the 
ladies. They had it sent to me, but it was for them to give here. 

Q. Major Newman: Mr. Manly, I don't think the record shows 
who made the report, and the date of it. 

A. Mr. Manly: The report is signed "Nellie O'Brien,'' who is the 
Miss O'Brien just referred to. 

Miss Townshend: Miss O'Brien is one of the original workers in 
the Gaelic League, which is a non-sectarian and non-political move- 
ment. Of course, I have articles here showing what a wonderful 
movement the Gaelic League is. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: And this report here is what? A. It 
is a report on the religious question. It shows the relation of the 
religious question to the political question. 

Q. That is, to what extent the religious question enters into the 
present struggle? A. Yes. She proves that the religious question 
does not come into it at all. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: She is an Episcopalian and an or- 
ganizer for the Gaelic League, as I understand it. A. Yes, she is. 

Mr. Manly (reading): 

"PROTESTANTS AND NATIONALITY 

"Many old standing fallacies in Ireland which have been carefully 
nurtured by British influence are now being exploded, like the one that 
the country is entirely dependent on England and could not keep her 
population alive out of her own resources. The most pernicious of 
all, however, is the fallacy that there is an impassable gulf between 
Catholics and Protestants, and that the interests of the different de- 
nominations! are incompatible. So deeply instilled is this that we 
hardly realize it ourselves. Even when we have not been brought up 
to hear our fellow Christians of another denomination spoken of as 
almost outside the pale, we are taught to treat them with a self-con- 
scious consideration, to elaborately avoid any subjects which might by 
any possibility be held to be controversial, to be on our guard lest we 
should hurt their feelings (or supposed feelings) ; in short, instead 
of the frank, free intercourse there should be amongst citizens of the 
one country, there is an atmosphere of being on one's guard, even of 
suspicion, which poisons the mind of our people by slow degrees, and 
divides us more and more into different camps. Protestants are 



1031 

taught, for instance, to be very careful not to say anything which 
might be interpreted as criticizing the priests ; while Catholics on the 
other hand have got into the habit of thinking that they will get no 
sympathy or understanding from Protestants,— and small wonder, per- 
haps, considering the history of the country and the effect of a couple 
of centuries of penal laws. No country could thrive in this artificial 
atmosphere, which has a cramping effect on all development; and of 
course the case is far worse in the North, where British statesmen 
have exploited the worst aspects of religious bigotry. 

SECTARIANISM FOSTERED BY BRITISH 

"It takes all sorts to make a nation, and freedom of social and in- 
tellectual intercourse is essential to its upbuilding. It is precisely for 
this reason that sectarianism has been sedulously fostered by British 
rule and British influence, which has always aimed at keeping Ireland 
weak and divided in order to dominate her more easily. And this 
influence has permeated our educational systems and even our homes, 
and has unconsciously warped the minds of many who are by nature 
of a frank and liberal disposition. 



GAELIC LEAGUE UNITES CATHOLICS AND 
PROTESTANTS 

"It is the aim of this paper to show that this state of things is arti- 
ficial, and not really natural to the Irish people, who when left to 
themselves are remarkably free from religious bigotry or class snob- 
bishness, two evi) things which often run side by side. And the best 
way to prove this is to consider what the character of the people is 
showing itself to be under the influence of the Gaelic League and its 
political counterpart, Sinn Fein, — using the term in its broadest na- 
tional sense. These two movements have not so much changed the 
character of the people ; rather, they have set free its natural elements, 
which were at the point of strangulation by the anglicizing influence 
at work in Ireland for so long. They have in fact given her back her 
soul. With the Gaelic League came a great and absorbing enthusiasm 
which set people of all denominations working side by side in fellow- 
ship and love. Under the sterner discipline of Sinn Fein, and with 
the stress of the danger of national extermination, we are learning 
still more to trust each other. The Gaelic League left it as a deeply 
felt, only half-expressed sentiment. The latter movement is leading 
us, one might almost say forcing us, to speak out our minds frankly 
to each other by the necessity of our interdependence. I write as a 
member of the Church of Ireland (Protestant Episcopal), and as 
practical experience is of more importance than many generalizations, 
I will, even at the risk of appearing somewhat egotistical, give briefly 
some personal observations bearing on this question, taking in suc- 
cession the different phases of work for the Gaelic revival with which 
I was connected. I may mention in the first place that I was brought 
up in the sort of atmosphere I have attempted to describe, among 
people who were liberal-minded and sincerely patriotic according to 
their lights, but who never got away from a feeling of utter hopeless- 
ness about the ultimate destiny of Ireland, and who were in reality 
entirely remote from the real life of the country. This feeling of dis- 
couragement prevented my taking any sides in politics, and the days 
of the industrial revival and of cooperation had hardly dawned then, 
nor would they of themselves without the sentiment of nationality 
have made any strong appeal to me. But when I joined the Gaelic 
League in 1905 everything seemed changed to me. 1 found there a 
new life, hopeful and buoyant, which, paradoxical as it may sound, 



1032 

had yet its roots deep in the past. Catholic and Protestant met there 
for the first time on common ground ; so also did landlord and the 
rank and file of the people. Dr. Douglas Hyde, who was President 
of the Gaelic League from its organization in 1893 to his retirement 
in 1915, is, as is well known, a Protestant, and the son of a Protestant 
clergyman. He was beloved and honored as much by members of the 
one church as of the other, by priests as much as by laymen. The 
Coisde Gnotha or Executive of the League was never without Prot- 
estants on it. of which I had the honor to be one; and to say that we 
were made cordially welcome is far short of the mark. There was 
always a feeling that a special place was prepared for us, which to 
me at least was very touching. At a later period the first place on 
the Executive has been gained by another lady, also a member of the 
Church of Ireland, who has headed the list year after year for all 
Ireland. The work for the Executive entailed going about the country 
in the summer to open a Feis or help to judge the competitions, as 
well as sitting on committees in Dublin. But town and country were 
the same. I found always the same warm spirit of camaraderie in the 
Gaelic cause, in the glens of Antrim or in Tyrone or in the most west- 
ern part of Connaught, where I came as a stranger, as well as in my 
native Limerick, with its sister counties of Clare and Kerry. 

OLD RELIGIOUS BARRIERS BROKEN DOWN 

"I was instrumental in starting a new branch of the Gaelic League 
(Craohn na g'Cuigi the Branch of the Five Provinces) in Dublin, 
the primary object of which was to get Protestants and people of dif- 
ferent political views to the majority to join in the national movement. 
It has, I am glad to say, been very successful, and neither politics nor 
religion have prevented it from taking its place with the other branches, 
which have a preponderance of Roman Catholics in them. We worked 
side by side, sometimes for years without even knowing to what re- 
ligious persuasion our colleagues belonged. To Americans it may 
seem strange that one should lay such stress on this, but anyone who 
has lived in Ireland under the old regime will realize what the break- 
ing down of the religious barriers has meant. Our Branch is also as 
broadly democratic as any of them. 

"When the Branch was in good working order I turned my attention 
to the founding of a Gaelic College in County Clare (O'Curry Col- 
lege, Carrigaholt), and there again my experiences were the same. 
The lady who took the most prominent part in the organizing work 
in the country. Miss Geraldine Griffin of Kilkee, was a Roman Catho- 
lic; but she was able to gather to our support the Protestant rector 
as well as the local priests, and when it was established the bishops 
of both denominations visited it, and certainly my own bishop got as 
warm a welcome from the students as did the other. 

"The next thing was a tour of the States with an exhibition of 
Irish arts and crafts for the purpose of explaining to the Americans 
by means of lectures, demonstrations, and concerts what was going 
on in Ireland, and to make money for the Gaelic League. I will only 
say in this connection that my colleagues for the year and a quarter 
that we were there were all Catholics, but that no question of religion 
ever divided us, or made my position awkward in the smallest degree. 
The working together in a strange country intensified our feeling of 
comradeship. I believe, too, that the personnel of our little band in 
that way evoked sympathy, and was in itself a demonstration of the 
drawing together of all creeds and classes under the Gaelic League. 



1033 

PROTESTANTS JOIN WITH CATHOLICS TO AVERT 
CONSCRIPTION 

"An interlude, but owing to the stress of the times a very stirring 
interlude which had also permanent results, was the stand made by a 
considerable number of Protestants throughout the country against 
conscription. It is known to everyone how that* peril, which would 
have meant the final blow to the remnant of the Irish nation, was 
averted, and how hard the struggle was. It looked at first as if the 
Protestants of Ireland were going to stand aloof altogether from that 
struggle, and ignominiously to allow themselves to be classed with the 
political and religious bigots who were trying to make capital out of 
the situation. A little band of us then, mostly members of the Church 
of Ireland, issued a manifesto calling on the Protestants to 'join with 
their Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen,' and stating that it was 
wrong to force a nation against its will and conscience. Our diffi- 
culties were enormous, owing to the opposition of the superior eccle- 
siastics, the economic pressure brought to bear on many who were 
secretly in sympathy, and the fact that we could not get a hearing in 
the Unionist papers. In spite of everything", however, we made our- 
selves felt, and received most touching tributes from all parts of Ire- 
land from Catholics who appreciated our efforts, and from Protes- 
tants who had no opportunity otherwise of registering themselves pub- 
licly as being on the national side. 

A NON-SECTARIAN COEDUCATIONAL SCHOOL 

"I had to do also with a school recently started outside Dublin 
(Saint Brendan's, Dun Laoghaire), where Protestant and Catholic 
children live and do all their lessons together, except religious in- 
struction, which is specially arranged for according to the wishes of 
the, parents. It is a bold experiment, — how bold only those who have 
worked in Ireland under the old conditions will understand ; but, 
though small as yet, it is getting on well and has, I hope, a future be- 
fore it. The head master is a Protestant, and the principal assistant 
a Roman Catholic. A Professor of Trinity College has his girls 
there, — the school is co-educational, another innovation in Ireland, as 
well as children of Catholic and Jewish parents ; and boys brought up 
in strongly Unionist beliefs sit side by side with ardent little Sinn 
Feiners. 

GAELICIZING IRISH PROTESTANTISM 

"I come now to the starting of Cumann na n'Eaglaise, the Irish 
Guild of the Church, which from this special point of view is by far 
the most important, as it is a question no longer of individual Prot- 
estants, but of a body of members of the Church of Ireland who, 
moved by the isolation of their Church, have definitely taken up the 
work of Gaelicizing and nationalizing it, and bringing it into touch 
with the country. The Guild occupies itself chiefly with conducting 
services in Irish in one of the principal churches in Dublin, with 
teaching the language to members of the congregation and others, and 
in running social and other functions in which all can join. It has 
been most cordially received by Gaels of other denominations, who 
realize what uphill work it has been, chiefly on account of the iden- 
tification in the minds of most of its higher ecclesiastics of the Irish 
language and ultra-national politics. It issues a monthly magazine 
(The Gaelic Churchman), and does a great amount of propaganda 
work, and has been successful in winning the support of a number of 
the bishops and other clergy, who are beginning to understand its 
aims. So warm is the appreciation of the Roman Catholic Gaels that 



1034 

when the Guild has occasion to get up a sale or concert, they are ever 
to the fore to help, and there is the curious spectacle of the per- 
formers at a concert being almost all Catholics,— they being more 
proficient in the national music and dances than the Protestants, who 
often for the first time come in contact on these occasions with the 
native traditions and culture. These simple experiences make one 
hopeful for the ultimate blending of the different parts of Irish life, 
which for so long seemed to jar hopelessly with each other." 

Q. Commissioner Howe: May I ask you where this is written 
from? A. Dublin. But the lady is from Clare. She has written 
it from Dublin. 

Q. Mr. Manly: She is a County Clare woman? A. Yes, she is. 
I might explain that Miss O'Brien belongs to one of our very best- 
known and finest families, — a very old family there. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: And is she describing conditions in 
County Clare? A. No, in Ireland. Throughout all Ireland. And 
here are a few other very short papers. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Shall I read them for you? A. Yes, if you 
please. 

BRITISH INCITE RELIGIOUS FANATICISM FOR 
POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC PROFIT 

Mr. Manly: This is signed, "A Belfast Business Man." You know 
personally who wrote it? 

Miss Townshend: That came from Miss O'Brien. 

Mr. Manly: This is signed by a Belfast business man, a Protestant: 

"Religious differences in Ireland benefit the English Government, 
inasmuch as that Government can thus attach one side to itself. A 
disunited people here is England's greatest asset. English statesmen 
know that they could not hold out against a united country. That is 
one of their secret reasons for partition. They fear that four millions 
of Irishmen would have more brains than thirty-six millions of Brit- 
ish. To emphasize our religious incompatibilities is one of their best 
cards, both here and in India. Some years ago, when the Indian 
hill tribes rose in revolt, the English press screamed that the tribesmen 
had invaded the Hindoo or Mohammedan temple and 'burned the 
sacred books.' That was intended to enlist the owners of the 'sacred 
books' on the English side. It was a perfect type of English pro- 
cedure. 

"Belfast trades unions are very impotent because of Orange and 
Green differences. Employers know that it is to their advantage to 
prevent a coalition of workers. Concerted action by the workers is 
very difficult when the employer or his newspaper tells the Orange 
workers that any demand is the result of a 'plot to dishonor Ulster.' 
They are told not to be led by the nose by 'emissaries of Rome.' If 
a workers' organization is becominng formidable, a riot has to be 
organized. That arrests fraternal negotiations. Before 1914 Sir Ed- 
ward Carson told an English audience that the majority behind him 
in Belfast (employers* and workmen) were so united that there had 
not been a strike there for several years. That is where the advantage 
to the employers came in. A wealthy man, by giving the Ulster 
Volunteers five hundred pounds for a drill hall, could save two or 
three thousand in the wages bill of that year. These wealthy men 



1035 

have the 'front seats in the synagogue,' and pay well into the Church 
funds. Consequently they expect the clergy to support their 'religion 
and liberties' in the pulpit and on the platform. The clergy are too 
often the auxiliaries of mammon, while they profess to preach Christ. 
Great is the mystery of inequity. The dupes are honest fanatics, and 
in their ignorance believe everything they are told. They are prepared 
to do anything required, from the looting of a convent. If there 
were no pope or no papists, eight out of twelve Belfast men would 
be without any religion at all. In fact, Belfast Protestantism is not 
a spiritual religion in any sense. It is a fanaticism exploited by poli- 
ticians and materialists for their own ends." 

IRISH PROTESTANTS WORK FOR NATIONAL 
INDEPENDENCE 

Mr. Manly: This one is signed by "Lily Williams." Who is she? 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Do you want to hear these without 
signatures? We ought to have their signatures in order to make 
them binding. 

A. Miss Townshend: Well, I think we can get the names for you. 
There is sometimes trouble about getting papers through. I think 
that is the reason they were not signed. 

Commissioner Addams: I think we might go on with them then. 

Mr. Manly (reading) : 

"It has been the earnest wish of Protestant Irish Ireland workers 
to sink religious differences and everything that made for division 
among us in the common cause we all have at heart. So successful 
have we been on our side that British political propaganda has made 
it appear as though national aspirations were confined solely to one 
religious body in Ireland, and tries also to make it appear that Prot- 
estants are antagonistic to national aspirations. Protestants in the 
past and Protestants today in larger numbers than in the past are in 
accord with their fellow-countrymen in the fight for independence, 
cooperating in every movement that makes for a free Ireland. In 
the elections, both parliamentary and municipal, Protestants it has 
been proved voted Republican. Protestants took prominent part in 
the Easter Uprising; Protestants are taking active though inconspicu- 
ous part today in carrying on the fight. In all public funerals of Irish 
martyrs Protestants took part, thereby publicly demonstrating their 
sympathy with the cause for which the martyr died. 

"So harmoniously have Protestants and Roman Catholics worked 
side by side in the Gaelic League, oblivious of all religious differences, 
that when organizing a lecture for propagandist purposes, we Protes- 
tants were at a loss to know which of our members belonged to the 
Protestant Church and which to the Roman Catholic. In error we 
invited several Roman Catholics to help us, explaining that it was a 
lecture by Canon Healy, Protestant, and the lecture to be held in a 
Protestant school house. We did not meet with one refusal from our 
Roman Catholic fellow-workers. The subject of Canon Healy's lec- 
ture was traditional Irish music, and the best music at the lecture was 
supplied by Roman Catholics. 

"In proportion to our numbers, to the best of my belief, Protestants 
working actively in Ireland's catise compare very favorably with our 
fellow Christians so engaged. 

(Signed) "Lily Williams." 



1036 

Miss Townshend (to Miss Bennett): She is a member of the 
Women's International League, is she not? 

Miss Bennett: I don't know her personally. She may be. 

Miss Townshend: Here is a copy of The Gaelic Churchman. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Do you want to put that in? Is there 
anything else you want to leave, Miss Townshend? A. Well, here 
is another article by a Protestant lady, and a long article by Miss 
Nellie O'Brien. 

Commissioner Addams: Yes, just put them in, if you please. 

Miss Townshend: And also I have a pamphlet by Countess Desart, 
Lady Desart, on the Gaelic League movement. 

Commissioner Addams: Thank you very much. 

CONTINUED TESTIMONY OF MISS LOUIE 

BENNETT 

CROWN FORCES MALTREAT CATHOLIC CHURCH 

% 

Miss Bennett: Miss Addams, I would like very much to inform 
the Commission about the treatment given the Catholic Church by 
the Crown forces. I don't know whether you have had anything 
on that or not. 

Commissioner Addams: No, we have not. We would like to 
hear it. 

Miss Bennett: I cannot understand myself why there should be 
this attitude taken by the British Government towards the Catholic 
Church. Of course this is true. This whole movement has been 
intensified on the part of the whole people by a religious feeling. 
To me the most remarkable thing about it is the religious feeling 
underlying it. Now, I don't mean the least bit something that is 
inspired or guided by the Catholic Church. It is in the people 
themselves, because they have met every one of these trials in the 
same intense religious devotion. I referred to the hunger strikers 
in Mount joy, and it was very remarkable at the time of the Mac- 
Swiney hunger strike. Every evening they had prayers, even in 
districts where the priests were not in favor of it, — for many of the 
priests were not in favor of Sinn Fein. Where I live, ten miles out- 
side of Dublin, the priest there did not want to hold a meeting, and 
the people met there themselves and recited the rosary, until finally 
the curate came down and led them. 

The British forces have killed two priests up to the present time, 
and six others are in prison. A Kilkenny priest was arrested the 
other clay because he had a receipt for the Republican loan and 
a proclamation of Dail Eireann and two other documents which I 
have myself. 

Q. Major Newman: Can you give his name? A. Rev. P. H. 
Delahunty, of Callan, County Kilkenny. The Irish Times has twice 



1037 

said that he has been sentenced to two years at hard labor. An- 
other paper said it was not at hard labor. I don't know, myself. 

Q. But there is no question about the two years, is there? A. 
No, he was sentenced to two years. 

CONVENTS TERRORIZED BY MIDNIGHT RAIDS 

Then in Dublin they have raided the monasteries. They have also 
raided two convents. They raided one convent in Merrion Square, 
where there is a rather high class of nuns, — nuns who took in Bel- 
gians and did Red Cross work during the war. And there in the 
middle of the night the military went and battered at the doors and 
roused up the Mother Superior. And she had to allow the armed 
men in the middle of the night to go through the house. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Looking for arms? A. They said 
they were looking for men as well as arms. Then they went to 
another convent, one of the strictest convents, where the nuns are 
not allowed even to speak to their own relatives except through a 
grating. And they raided this convent, and even searched the nuns' 
rooms in the middle of the night. 

Q. Was that for arms t,oo? A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Can you give the names of those convents, Miss 
Bennett? A. I can give them to you. The first was in Merrion 
Square, Dublin, and the second one was the Ranelagh Convent 
in the north side of Dublin. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: And those were Unionist nuns? A. 
They had Unionist sympathies in times past. 

PRIESTS ARRESTED AND ABUSED 

Then within the past two weeks they raided the Capuchin Friars 
in North Street, Dublin. They arrested there Father Dominic, 
Mayor MacSwiney's priest. And they also arrested one of our best- 
known and best-loved priests in Dublin, Father Albert. Both of 
these' men I think were chaplains during the war. Father Dominic 
I am sure was, and I think Father Albert was. They took these two 
men off and separated them. We know, because we got Father Al- 
bert's story straight. And they brought a rope in and threatened 
to hang him or shoot him with a revolver if he didn't give them 
certain information. This was told to our friend Miss Griffin. 
Father Albert could not see anyone, but she went to the monastery 
and she saw one of his friends there and got the exact details. And 
twice while they were threatening him he heard shots fired and 
heard a body fall, and he naturally thought it was Father Dominic. 
Of course, it was sheer terrorism. Meantime, Father Dominic was 
also being threatened with revolvers and with this halter, and ter- 
rorized in that way. 



1038 

i 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Are they out row? A. No, I don't 
know. Of course, I left immediately after. I have the account of 
Father Dominic's trial here I would like to leave with you. He 
was charged with having in his possession a private letter to a 
friend written at Brixton Prison, in which he made a statement 
which, if published, was likely to cause disaffection to His Majesty's 
subjects. He was also charged with having in his possession a 
diary which he said he had written while he was attending Mayor 
MacSwiney in Brixton Prison. And he was court-martialed for 
having in his possession this letter and this diary. I don't know 
what he was sentenced to. 

Mr. Manly: He was sentenced to two years. 

The Witness: What good will it do? It looks like they were 
deliberately trying to create a religious war. 

TERRORISM AT CHURCH SERVICES 

Q. Mr. Manly: We have had testimony from some of the mem- 
bers of the Royal Irish Constabulary that they were under orders 
to attend Catholic services with their arms drawn, two constables 
standing at the front of the altar with their guns at the ready, and 
two at the rear of the church. Has that been the case in Dublin, do 
you know? A. I don't know personally. I have heard of many 
cases of outrages throughout the country against churches. 

Q. This was at Clogheen. A. Yes, I have no doubt of it at all. 
Such things are happening throughout the country. A friend of 
mine wrote me about the beating of young men when they were 
coming out of a chapel in County Wexford, where there had been 
no shooting at all. Of course, the people have been beaten on many 
occasions coming out of church. These young men were attacked 
and beaten so that it broke their teeth. 

Q. Mr. Manly: And this is just to arouse feeling between the 
people? A. Well, I could not say that positively, but it looks like 
it, — it looks like it. 

PERSECUTION UNITES PEOPLE OF ALL CREEDS 

Q. Major Newman: Well, perhaps you can say whether it is 
having that effect? A. No, it is not. Such persecution only draws 
people of all creeds together. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: What proportion of the Irish people 
are now openly affiliated with the Republican cause, do you know? 
What is your opinion? A. Of course, they say 75 per cent, of 
them are. They base that on the elections; but it is not an accurate 
way, because everyone who is not a Unionist will vote Sinn Fein. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: There are getting to be only two 



1039 

parties now? A. Yes, that is it. No Nationalist now wants to split 
the thing when it comes to a question of voting. They want to stand 
together. I think there is a pretty strong contingent who are do- 
minion home-rulers, but almost all of them support the Republicans 
when it comes to a vote. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Is that getting stronger in the country? A. Yes, 
yes. Every atrocity creates a lot of Sinn Feiners. You see, the 
position is that even the Unionists are disgusted with the British 
Government. Even they are. They do not like the methods it uses. 

Miss Townshend: A Protestant clergyman near Dublin recently 
preached a sermon that the Unionists should join up with Sinn 
Fein. A relation of mine heard the sermon preached. 

Q. Commissioner Howe: And all that is creating a greater sol- 
idarity in Ireland? A. Yes, yes. It simply drives the people right 
into the Republican camp. 

Q. Is that true in other districts? A. Yes, yes. Particularly 
the young men. 

IRISH PRISONERS MALTREATED 

Miss Bennett: The young men are all Sinn Fein. Of course you 
realize the number of men under arrest. Now it must be at least 
3,000. About Christmas time we had the figures, and it was 2,000 
then, and there must be 3,000 now. 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Are they in Ireland? A. Many of 
them are. They have a big prison camp in County Down, in 
northern Ireland, and another one in Galway. 

Q. Mr. Manly: They have interned them? A. Yes, they have 
interned them. 

Q. Major Newman: Do you know anything about the conditions 
of those camps? A. Just before I left I was making inquiries. I 
know a woman whose husband is there, and she told me that they 
are all suffering from the cold and an affection of the feet and the 
bad food. She said that if these conditions continued they would 
all be in the hospital. 

Miss Townshend: It is a very exposed place. Three sides are 
exposed to the sea. The Ulster Volunteers were trained there, but 
not at this time of the year. 

Q. Do you know whether there have been any deaths there? A. 
No. But the way the Black-and-Tans treat the prisoners in the 
Dublin prisons is awful. A friend of mine goes up to the barracks 
to see a friend, — at the Harbor Hill barrack. And she came back 
one day after a visit and reported the following incident to me. One 
Monday night and Black-and-Tans came in late, all drunk, and they 
started abusing these prisoners in the vilest language. And they 
said they would like to shoot all these prisoners. And they took 



1040 

one man out of bed in his night clothes and ran him around the 
barrack yard. And they said that one of their comrades had been 
shot that day, and they showed him a dead body. But we could not 
verify that, because no Black-and-Tan had been shot that day. One 
had been killed the previous day accidentally. And we have that 

on the statement of Mr. X . But I do not want this mentioned 

by the gentlemen of the press here. 

MURDERS AND MILITARY FRIGHTFULNESS 

We also have a complete list of the men, women, and children 
murdered in Ireland for the twelve months of 1920. I will not give 
you the details, but the total number is 203. Of these, 172 were 
young men and men of middle age; 12 were children under 17 
years; 6 were women, two of them being pregnant at the time of 
their murder; 10 were old men of 60 years and over; 3 were boys 
of 18 years; 1 was a Catholic priest 73 years of age, and since then 
there has been another priest murdered, a young man 34 years 
of age. 

It is a common thing for soldiers going along the country to fire 
shots at women and children who are going by. They have to lie 
down flat in the road because the Black-and-Tans fire at them, — I 
do not think to kill them, but simply to terrify them. My maid 
has had letters from home that she has shown to me, telling how 
the whole countryside is terrified by these insane practices. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Well, Mrs. Quinn was shot like that. A. Yes, 
Mrs. Quinn was shot like that, but the case of the woman in Kil- 
kenny was even a more terrible murder. 

SEX CRIMES DIFFICULT TO ASCERTAIN 

Q. Major Newman: Have you heard of any sex crimes? A. No, 
I have not personally, except that I have reports of two cases of 
court-martials, one of a soldier and the other of a constable, where 
they were court-martialed for assaults on women; and one was 
sentenced to two years. Of course, it is very difficult to get facts 
about such cases. 

Q. But you have heard of two cases of courts-martial for sex 
crimes on women? A. Yes. Of course, the case of the drunken 
officers in Dublin breaking into a house where there were three 
women, and one of the women escaped and ran from the house; 
and the military were sent from the barracks and arrested the offi- 
cers. And of course there are many instances of the brutal treat- 
ment of women, many, many of them. 

Miss Townshend: And then there was the case of the old woman 



1041 

of seventy years of age who was murdered by an officer whom they 
said later was crazy. 

BRUTAL TREATMENT OF UNPROTECTED 
WOMEN 

Q. Mr. Manly: Can you give us cases of the brutal treatment 
of women? A. Yes. There was a case of an old woman in 
Dublin. Her sons, it was said, were in the Republican Army. And 
the military raided her house. In it lived the old woman and an 
unmarried daughter and two married daughters and a little child 
two and a half years of age. On this day the unmarried daughter 
was at home, and she had charge of the little child. And they 
raided the house, and wanted to get the name of a certain man from 
her. And they put her up against the wall and put a revolver to 
either side of her head and demanded that she tell them his name. 
And she fell in a faint; and the next thing she knew there was a 
nurse standing over her. The Cork military hospital is near there, 
and a nurse from the hospital was standing over her. 

The next day both the military and the Black-and-Tans came. 
The unmarried daughter was upstairs in bed, and the two married 
daughters and the mother were downstairs with the little child. 
Some of the men went upstairs to the room where the unmarried 
daughter was in bed, and the rest remained downstairs. And one 
of the married daughters went upstairs after them to stay with her 
sister. And then the two of them who stayed downstairs began to 
threaten the old mother, to compel her to tell the name of this party 
they wanted. They took the little child away from her and took it 
outside. They got a can of petrol, and they threatened her with 
revolvers, trying to get this information about this man. And they 
said that they would set the place on fire if she did not tell them. 
Of course they frightened the poor old woman nearly to death. 
And upstairs they were threatening the unmarried daughter, and 
tried to get her to tell. And they said to her, "You had better leave 
this house, for we are going to burn it." They questioned her about 
her brother and asked her if she had a brother in the army — -in the 
Sinn Fein army. On this occasion they battered in the door. They 
would not wait for the door to be opened, but battered in the door 
in order to get into the house, where there was no one but these 
women and a little child. 

DRUNKENNESS PROMOTES BRUTALITY 

Q. Mr. Manly: Were they intoxicated? A. Well, the girl who 
was downstairs said that the two men down there were intoxicated. 



1012 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Do you think the drink question en- 
ters in? A. Yes, yes. Indeed it does. 

Miss Townshend : The officer who shot that priest they said wa* 
(hunk. 

Q. Father Griffin? A. No, Canon Magner. 

MURDER OF IRISH CIVILIANS ON THE INCREASE 

Q. Would you like to submit any other papers on this subject? 
A. Well, those figures I gave you from this list, which is very care- 
fully drawn up, show that of the 203 murders listed, only 44 oc- 
curred up to the end of August. All the remainder occurred during 
the remaining four months. And of course the number has in- 
creased very much since then. They say they are shot trying to 
escape, but that is all humbug. 

Q. You haven't the list of casualties on the other side, the con- 
stables, have you? A. No, this list does not include any casualties 
who have been killed in taking barracks or anything of that sort. 
None of them occurred in any kind of armed conflict. 

Q. Is the list of men killed that way very large? A. Yes, it 
must be very large. But no list has ever been published. 

Mr. Manly: Those are considered as casualties of war, and no 
complaint is made of the men killed in that way. 

GAELIC MOVEMENT BRINGS NATIONAL REBIRTH 

Q. Commissioner Addams: Is there anything else you want to 
say, Miss Townshend? A. Miss Townshend: Well, since we are 
coming from the Women's International League, this might be in- 
teresting. It is written by Dr. L. Paul Du Bois, who has written a 
book on Contemporary Ireland. It gives an excellent idea of what 
the movement in Ireland is. 

Commissioner Addams: Would you read that, Mr. Manly? 

Mr. Manly: Certainly. This is written by L. Paul Du Bois, and 
the article is entitled "The Gaelic Movement." (Reading) : 

"When we have considered the field of action of what is called the 
Gaelic movement, it becomes a matter of, conviction that this is no 
merely superficial and artificial agitation, but a profound movement 
which may hold within it the germs of national rebirth, a movement 
that is destined to free the Irish nation from intellectual dependence 
upon England and give it back its own life, moral and mental, eco- 
nomic and social. We find, in one word, the promise of an Ireland 
worthy of the name, an Irish Ireland. 

"A consideration of it must suggest and recall those other move- 
ments of national renaissance of which so many small nationalities 
of Europe have given demonstration during the course of the nine- 
teenth century. The Czech language and literature were all but ex- 
tinguished a hundred years ago, when one evening four or five 
scholars, the last depositories of the national treasure, met together in 
a certain house in Prague to consider means by which they might 



1043 

bring this treasure to life again. A writer has said that if the roof of 
the house had 'fallen in there would have been an end of their na- 
tionality. They fought and they triumphed. Today, following the 
example of the Czechs, the southern Slavs and the Poles are fighting 
for the recognition of their civilization. From the beginning of the 
century, Wales, after Wesley's regeneration work, had readopted the 
Welsh tongue, and had created a new Welsh literature. Soon after- 
wards the Magyar language was saved from Pan-Germanism, and the 
Finnish from Swedish influence. The Flemish, with Hendrick Con- 
science, resumed their natural organ of expression without losing- 
French, and the Norwegians, in spite of the Danes, reconstituted their 
language, as the latter had a century before revived theirs, which was 
being stifled by German. 

"Everywhere the revival of the language has thus preceded or ac- 
companied a national renaissance. Late in the lists Ireland, in her 
turn, comes to fight. She is struggling to preserve with her national 
language her right to live, her right to have a soul. She is fighting 
for something else as well, and this is the preservation of a group of 
ideas and traditions in the world, whose responsible depository she is. 
And it must be said that of all the small nationalities who, confront- 
ing the gross utilitarianism and corrupt materialism of the modern 
world, seem created to represent the claims of beauty, truth, and 
civilization, there is not one that is more worthy of being preserved 
than Celtic Ireland, very old and always young. In none of them do 
we find a more delicate or more spiritual genius, a genius richer in 
imagination, piety, and idealism. The preservation and development 
of it in complete, conscious, and fruitful expression is, more than any 
other, essential to the future of humanity. 

"If this culture should perish it would be a crime. And if one takes 
the point of view of England's own self-interest, it would be a mis- 
take. England has need of a populous Ireland, a rich Ireland, whose 
hostility she need not fear. But she has, above all, need of an Ire- 
land that shall be truly Irish and Celtic. It is not a paradox to say 
that Ireland will be so much the less anti-English as she is the less 
Anglicized, as she is the more Celtic and national. Nor is this all. 
There is a Celtic factor in the composition of the English mind which 
. has manifested itself clearly in the case of some of her greatest men 
and greatest poets. It is to England's interest that this Celtic in- 
fluence should continue to counterbalance in her genius the German 
and Norman elements. It is Matthew Arnold and not we who say 
this, and the thesis may be found in his celebrated work on The Study 
of Celtic Literature. 

"When the Gaelic movement was born in Ireland the general im- 
pression was that this movement came too late into a world too old. 
The cause seemed lost in advance. Foreign examples proved nothing, 
so it was said. Nowhere else had the national language fallen so low 
as in Ireland. No other country had to fight alone such a battle 
against such an adversary. If Ireland had but had behind her such 
solid strength as the Slav world behind the Czechs and the Poles, she 
might stand a chance of success ! But what is Pan-Celticism com- 
pared to Pan-Slavism? Today, on the other hand, when observers 
note how the mind of the nation has awakened to enthusiasm; when 
the ardor with which the Irish people have received the new gospel, 
and the intelligence with which they have understood what was ex- 
pected of them is known; when after fifteen years of work, obstacles 
have been surmounted and results attained, it begins to be said that 
the impossible sometimes comes true, and that success is not impos- 
sible. No doubt Ireland as yet is but at the dawn of the new day. 
The battle has only begun, but it is already half won against the out- 
side enemy, that is to say, against anti-Celtic prejudice. . . . The 
most sceptical of our Irish friends who five years ago smiled at Gaelic 
hopes are now almost sure that Ireland in the next generation will be 



Kill 

bilingual, at least for the greater part. For the present, in any case, 
no one will deny the positive result that the movement has produced 
in the social domain. From one end of the country to the other the 
Gaelic spirit is working as a powerful factor of peace and of union. 
The Gaelic revival has restored the national idea and raised it above 
and beyond party, and religious profession. Under the Gaelic banner 
there are neither Unionists nor Nationalists : everyone is Irish. Of 
the two Irelands the Gaelic renaissance is making one." 

EDITORS IMPRISONED AND FINED 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I am sure we are very glad to have 
that. And have you any other resolutions from the Gaelic League 
that you wish to submit? A. Miss Bennett: Well, the other one is 
about a paper. I don't know whether the American press here 
knows the case of the Freeman s Journal. The three editors of the 
Freeman s Journal were arrested on the charge of giving false in- 
formation, and they were sentenced to a year's imprisonment and a 
fine of three thousand pounds, although the substance of what they 
reported was true. A great agitation was made in the English press, 
and they have been released, as they say, on account of health con- 
ditions. I have got a statement from one of the editors of the 
Freeman s Journal about the whole court-martial case and the facts 
that came out. It is very illuminating, and if you wish, I will leave 
it with you. 1 

Commissioner Addams: Yes, we would be very glad to have it, 
I am sure. 

WAR ON THE WOUNDED 

The Witness: And then this is a list of cases. It is from the Irish 
Bulletin, and is called, "War on the Wounded," giving cases where 
the British military have shot men and have shown utmost callous- 



1 The main charge made by the British Government against the editor 
and two directors of the Freeman's Journal was the publication of an 
article with a photograph showing the wounds on the back of a man who 
had been flogged by soldiers of the Berkshire Regiment while a prisoner 
in Portobello Barracks, Dublin. The accused journalists were tried by 
court-martial before soldiers stationed in Dublin, and sentenced to twelve 
months' imprisonment, with a fine of £3,500 imposed on the company, al- 
though the prisoner who had been beaten, two reputable doctors who 
treated his wounds, and a photograph of the wounds taken two days after 
the beating established the truthfulness of the paper's account of the affair. 
But the Coercion Act now in force in Ireland makes such publications 
punishable, even though they be wholly true, if they are "likely to cause 
disaffection to His Majesty's subjects." The Manchester (England) 
Weekly Guardian for December 31, 1920, makes the following comment 
upon this sort of court-martial "justice" in Ireland: 

"The sentence on the Freeman's Journal will probably have the de- 
sired minatory effect — already half produced by unofficial threats of 
arson and terrorism in a score of newspaper offices — of completing the 
subservience of the press in Ireland to Government-supplied news 
which is often nothing but unscrupulous propaganda." 



1045 

ness in their treatment of men who were wounded, leaving them to 
suffer. One of these cases I have verified myself, where a young 
chap in Dublin called Doyle was shot in his yard. They arrested 
the other man in the house, his brother-in-law, and when they were 
taking him away in the lorry this brother-in-law heard the officer 
say, "I hope to God that I didn't kill him outright." But they 
left him lying there and he died in a short time. Then several hours 
afterwards they sent an ambulance to get him. 

Q. Mr. Manly: Are the ambulances operating the Red Cross 
ambulances, or are they regular ambulances of the British Army? 
A. Well, there have been some Red Cross; I have seen a few. But 
in many cases they just send a stretcher from the nearest barracks. 

MURDER OF PRISONER CLOAKED BY 
FALSEHOOD 

And I have here a very carefully drawn up statement by Mr. 
Edward Lysaght about the case of the man Clune. You remember 
on Sunday, November 21st, when those 14 British officers were 
murdered in Dublin. Well, a day or two afterwards it was reported 
that three men, Sinn Fein prisoners, were shot in attempting to 
escape. And the military gave a report that these men had attacked 
their guard, and were killed by the guard in self-defense, and a 
statement that this man Clune was a licensed trader. The statement 
was absolutely inaccurate in every detail. And Mr. Lysaght, who is 
in the cooperative movement and was very deeply and closely at- 
tached to Clune, he made a very careful investigation of the case, 
which I have here. The press will remember that Mr. Lysaght's 
life was endangered simply because he wanted to show up this case 
and give the facts about Mr. Clune's murder. Clune had absolutely 
no connection at all with the Republican movement. He had come 
up to Dublin Saturday with Mr. Lysaght, and was with Mr. Lysaght 
until a few hours' time before he was arrested and murdered. 

COOPERATIVE STORE LOOTED AND DESTROYED 

On the day this poor man was buried, the cooperative store at 
Raheen was looted and destroyed. They trampled tea and sugar 
and everything on the ground, and broke into the store room and 
carried away practically all the groceries or destroyed what they did 
not take. They did this while the men of the store were attending 
Clune's funeral. The next day they came and raided Mr. Lysaght's 
house, and Mr. Lysaght dare not go back for fear of his life. He 
does his work in Dublin the best he can. 



1046 

PRISONERS TERRORIZED BY BLACK-AND-TANS 

Mr. Lysaght himself was arrested and put into the same cell 
where Clune was, and the Black-and-Tans showed him the bullet 
marks in the wall and said, "This is where your friend Clune was 
murdered, and you will be murdered here too." There were some 
young fellows there, some university students. And this terrorism 
continued all day long. And he said that during the day that he 
was there these Black-and-Tans continued to drink and play cards 
throughout the day and part of the night. Of course, Mr. Lysaght 
is a very big man, and influence was brought about to have him 
released. And he was released after midnight and sent off without 
any guard, — simply a permit. And he had to walk a very long 
way across the city to where he lived. His life was really in danger. 

Commissioner Addams: That will all go into the evidence (indi- 
cating documents submitted in Clune case). 1 Thank you very much. 
Is there anything more? 

FROM A UNIONIST FAMILY TO REPUBLICANISM 

Q. Mr. Manly: There is a question or two, Miss Bennett. I 
happened to be away during a part of your testimony, and if you 
have treated some of these things, just say so. How long have you 
been affiliated with the Republican nationalist movement? A. I 
am not a part of any political work at all. 

Q. But you are Republican in sympathy? A. Yes, I am. 

Q. The question I want to ask is this, if you could tell us: what 
are the outstanding facts that made you, of a Unionist family in a 
Unionist environment, come to this attitude? A. Well, I never was 
Unionist myself, although my family were. I had absolutely no 
interest in politics whatever. 

Q. When did the turn begin to come? It seems to me that this 
personal attitude is rather important. 

Commissioner Addams: Yes, it is significant, if she cares to give 
it. A. Well, I was just trying to think. I was born of a strong 
Unionist family, and of course was sent to an English school. I 
think I was born with an intense hatred of the English people. I 
cannot help it. It seems to be born in me. I remember that when 
I used to go along those English country roads and look at those 
houses, their placidity and comfortability always affected me. 

Q. Mr. Manly: I suppose it was in contrast to what you saw in 
your own country? A. Yes, I suppose it must have been that. 

Q. Major Newman: But you are Irish yourself, — both sides of 
your family? A. Well, my father's side was of English origin, 
three generations ago. Of course, I always had a great interest in 



1 See Exhibit IV hereof, pp. 1064-8. 



1047 

the Irish question. And some years ago, when I was up in Belfast, a 
friend of mine induced me to read books relating to the Wolfe Tone 
and Emmet time. Up in Belfast they have a very fine collection of 
these old books. And I read some of these books, and I afterwards 
wrote a novel based on what I had read up there. 

Q. That was the historical basis for your interest in politics? 
A. \es, it is. Then I was away from Ireland for a few years, 
and when I came back I was very much interested in the suffrage 
movement. And then when I touched the Labor movement, I got 
to be interested in it. And then, like many other slow converts, 
the 1916 uprising aroused a great deal of dormant nationalist feel- 
ing in me, just as it did in a vast number of people. Of course, 
you see, the manner of Connolly's death affected me very much per- 
sonally, because I was in close touch with him. I knew his family, 
and I kept in touch with him when he was lying in prison, and of 
course at the time of his execution. 

NEW YORK "TIMES' " BOLSHEVIK SCARE 
UNFOUNDED 

Q. Mr. Manly: There is a quotation here from the New York 
Times that I would like to get your interpretation of. (Reading) : 

"But little attention has been paid in this country to the Irish Labor 
Party. It has been working with the British Labor Party to bring 
about the withdrawal of troops from Ireland, yet all along has been 
playing its own hand. What that is was plainly declared by Mr. 
Johnson, the representative of Irish Labor, in the recent labor con- 
ference. He said: 'I do not want to deceive you. If the right of 
self-determination were given us, we would determine, if we could, 
for a workers' republic in Ireland.' 

"That means a Soviet Government, with the confiscation of private 
property and the nationalization of all industries. What have Irish- 
men with a stake in their country to say to this? What are the Cath- 
olic hierarchy thinking about it ? The latest news is that the im- 
patient Irish Labor Party is calling upon the British Labor Party to 
resort at once to 'direct action' in order to force the Government to 
get out of Ireland." 

Commissioner Addams: I don't think we need to have the whole 
editorial, Mr. Manly. 

Mr. Manly: Well, this is a very important point. It is because 
it is apparent that there is a very concerted propaganda in this 
country to show that there is a direct connection between the Irish 
Republic and Lenin. He is always mentioned in this relation. 

Commissioner Addams: Very well. Just go on. 

Mr. Manly : The connection shown between Lenin and the Soviet 

Government with the Irish Republic is especially indicated in this 

next pargaraph. I Continues reading): 

"This is the Lenin program. It is a revolution against the Irish 
bourgeoisie. The whole thing looks more and more as if the Labor 
Party cared very little about the wrongs of Ireland, and was perfectly 
willing to make use of them in a way to delight the heart and further 
the projects of Nicolai Lenin." 



1048 

SOCIALISM NOT STRONG AMONG IRISH LABOR 

Q. Mr. Manly: Now, I wanted to ask you first whether, from 
your relations with the Irish Labor movement, do you know if that 
is a correct quotation of Mr. Johnson's attitude? A. No, it is not. 
Mr. Johnson, of course, is a Socialist. 

Q. Who is Mr. Johnson, by the way? A. He is the secretary 
of the Irish Labor Party. 

Q. Was he born in Ireland? A. No, he is an Englishman. He 
worked up in Belfast at first. I think he was a traveler of some 
kind. And then he became interested in the Labor movement. He 
is a very idealistic and fine type of man, very much so, — a splendid 
man. He did not come very prominently forward until after 1916. 
But after the uprising, when everything was in chaos in Dublin, he 
and another man named Cameron came down from Belfast, and 
they did very remarkable work. People were very badly frightened 
in Dublin, as you can imagine. And they got the workers together. 
That was the first Trades Union Congress. I just went down there 
as a visitor. I was reporting for a paper. It was the first Trades 
Union Congress that I went to. Johnson was the chairman. He is 
a very fine man. He is a moderate Socialist, not an extremist. 
Amongst the Labor Party there are a few, — I don't know if you 
would call them extreme Socialists, but they are strong Socialists. 

Mr. Manly: Well, we have that in the United States. 

The Witness: I think you have. But the rank and file are not 
Socialists to any great extent. They have not time to think about it. 
But many of the leaders are. What they think of is this: they want 
more wages, and they look to the trade union to get it for them. 
But outside of that, the political question absorbs them. And the 
leaders know it quite well. 

Q. Major Newman: Do you think there is any considerable senti- 
ment in Ireland among the workers to take over the government 
and run it? A. No. I have heard the leaders advocate themselves 
the taking over and running of the industries by the workers. But 
they say that the time is not ripe for it yet. 

Q. But it is not part of the present program? A. No, it is not. 

Q. Mr. Manly: There is no agitation for confiscation following 
the establishment of the Republic? A. Absolutely none. Of 
course, we all talk about the control of industry. 

Commissioner Addams: Certainly. 

The Witness: But there is no talk about having a workers' republic 
or even the confiscation of private property. But the Government 
is very much afraid of it. I know that. 

Mr. Manly: Well, we have a government over here that sees things 
at night also. 



1049 

The Witness: Well, yes, that is the way of it. There is, of course, 
a Socialist Party of Ireland, but it has a very small membership. 

Q. How large a membership? A. I don't know; only a very 
small number of members. It is limited to Dublin. 

Q. So that is the Soviet that is about to take over capital in 
Ireland? A. Yes, that is it, exactly. 

LABOR WANTS REPRESENTATION IN THE DAIL 

Q. Does Mr. Johnson hold any position in the Irish Republic? 
A. No. That is why this Constituent Assembly was asked for in 
the Labor Congress meeting. Labor has no direct representation in 
the Dail. Tha.t is why they would like another Constituent Assem- 
bly, and secure representation in the Dail. Of course, many of the 
members of the Dail are very progressive, but they are not extreme 
Socialists. They are not usually elected simply for their economic 
views. As a matter of fact, the language has much to do in elec- 
tions. The Gaelic speaker gets elected. 

NO SOVIET GOLD IN IRELAND 

Q. Mr. Manly: There is another thing in connection with this. 
We have had editorials, one of them during the last week in the 
Washington Post, charging indirectly as "it is said" that the Irish 
Republic is in receipt of enormous sums of money from the Soviet 
Government of Russia. Have you heard that in Ireland? A. For 
years I have heard it. At first we had the German gold, and now 
we have the Russian gold. I would not mind seeing some of it in 
Ireland. But I myself have seen nothing of it. And I did not see 
that the families of the members of the Dail or the Ministers have 
much gold to talk about, either. 

SOCIALISM STRONGEST IN ULSTER 

Q. Commissioner Addams: I suppose that the scare that the 
workers are getting control is shown by the insertion of the pro- 
vision by Sir Edward Carson that there should be no levy in the 
new parliament in the north for fifteen years. A. Well, I think 
they have very much reason to be frightened in the north, — more 
than in the south. I think when the workers will get together up 
there you will have a very strong Socialist movement there. 

Q. They are more industrial there? A. Yes, but more than 
that. They are very much under the influence of the Scotch workers. 
And, as one of the papers read here said, there are many of the 
workers up there who have no particular religion. It was a very 
interesting fact that at the last Trade Union Congress some of die 
Expelled Workers' Committee came down and gave us a report on 



1050 

their work; and they told us that 25 per cent, of the men thrown 
out of their work were Protestants who were Socialists. They would 
not stand hy the other Protestant workers who expelled the Cath- 
olics. 

FARMERS THE DECIDING FACTOR IN IRELAND 

Q. Mr. Manly: Well, it is true, is it not, that the majority of the 
Irish people are connected with agricultural life? A. Yes, it is. 

Q. So that even if Mr. Johnson had the purpose expressed in 
this article of setting up a Soviet form of government, he would be 
decidedly outnumbered by the agricultural population? A. Yes. 
Of course, the deciding factor in Ireland is the agricultural popu- 
lation. But it is extremely difficult to say what line the peasant 
workers will take in the movement. 

Q. But the tendency has been towards cooperation, has it not? 
A. Not among the agricultural workers themselves. I was talking 
to a man the other day who is in touch with the agricultural situa- 
tion; and I asked him if he saw much tendency among the agricul- 
tural workers to take up small holdings, and he said no. And he is 
a man who travels about the country a lot and knows what he is 
talking about. Of course, these agricultural workers have been 
organized for only a year. 

Q. That is the experience of all labor movements, is it not, that 
the agricultural worker tends to be slow and conservative? A. At 
the present time all the agricultural workers think of is first, more 
wages; and second, independence. 

Q. Major Newman: Do you not think that the purpose of the 
Irish Republic after it gets independence is beyond the scope of 
this Commission? 

A. Commissioner Addams: Yes, I thought that when this edi- 
torial was introduced. Well, then, shall I say that the hearing will 
come to an end? Is there anything else, Miss Bennett and Miss 
Townshend? 

STATEMENT OF IRISHWOMEN'S INTERNATIONAL 

LEAGUE 

Miss Bennett: I really ought to read this statement from the Irish 
Women's International League. 

Commissioner Addams: Yes, certainly, of course. You were go- 
ing to read that before. Miss Bennett is a member of the Irish 
Branch of the Women's International League, and she has here a 
statement made on this question by her organization. 

Miss Bennett: This is the statement that the Irish Women's Inter- 
national League prepared and gave to me especially to set before 
this Commission. (Reading): 



1051 

RESPONSIBILITY RESTS UPON BRITISH 
GOVERNMENT 

"The Irishwomen's International League affirms that the responsi- 
bility for the bloodshed and violence in Ireland rests upon the British 
Government, which refuses to allow her the indefeasible right of all 
nations to freedom, outlaws her duly elected Parliament, and per- 
sistently attempts to rule the people by force. 

"Every effort made by Ireland's chosen representatives to carry on 
the government of the country with the consent of the people has been 
ruthlessly suppressed by the militarist forces of the British Govern- 
ment. The members of the Dail have been imprisoned time after time, 
and eventually driven to carry on their activities sub rosa. 

"As an organization advocating passive resistance to tyranny, we 
wish to draw particular attention to the constructive work attempted 
by the Dail, with the cooperation of the people, and to the methods 
by which this work has been impeded or destroyed by the British 
Government. 

THE SOLUTION 

"In our opinion the solution lies in the decision of Great Britain to 
withdraw her forces from Ireland and to permit the Irish people to 
create and develop their own national institutions as a free State. 
The objection to this on the side of Great Britain is avowedly based 
on strategic considerations. A free Ireland she declares to be a mili- 
tary danger. Whilst strongly protesting against the denial of free- 
dom from such a motive, we believe at the same time that no ground 
for this objection exists, and that a settlement may be reached which, 
with the friendly aid of America, would set at rest all such fears, 
reasonable or unreasonable. Republican Ireland has repeatedly af- 
firmed through her leaders her willingness to enter into a treaty with 
Great Britain which would secure friendly relations between the two 
peoples. 

' 'The problem,' stated Mr. de Valera, 'can only be solved by a 
Treaty of Peace signed by the accredited representatives of the two 
peoples, on the basis of a guarantee of Ireland's independence on the 
one hand and a guarantee of British security on the other, by some 
international instrument. The Irish people will, I believe, readily 
consent to give Britain a guarantee which can be ratified interna- 
tionally, that they will not allow their island to be used as a base for 
an attack on British independence.' 

IRELAND SEEKS ONLY INDEPENDENCE 

"And Mr. Griffith has spoken to the English people as follows: 
'Ireland seeks no more than the acknowledgment of her independence. 
Provided that acknowledgment be made, she is quite ready to enter 
into a treaty by which the independence and security of the two coun- 
tries can be mutually guaranteed. . . . Freely admit that Ireland 
has the right to choose her own government, and Ireland ceases to be 
your enemy. Some of your politicians refer to Ireland as an enemy 
on your flank. When you deal with Ireland as nation with nation, 
there will no longer be an enemy on your flank. She will be a coun- 
try by your side whose interest and whose will it will be to live in 
peace and amity with you.' 

"In order to prove Ireland's material interest in maintaining friendly 
relations with England, it is only necessary to state that the trade 
between the two countries is worth £250,000,000 a year, and that each 
is the other's best customer. (Sparling's Journal.) 



1052 

AMERICAN MEDIATION ETHICAL AND 
PRACTICAL 

"We believe that Ireland's devotion to the national cause, her suf- 
ferings, and her endurance must stir the conscience of America and 
of all free nations. The Irish problem affects the ordered and peace- 
ful progress of humanity and raises issues vital to the growth of 
human liberty. 

"There are many practical reasons which make the present case of 
Ireland a source of interest and anxiety to America. It is not for us 
to enlarge upon these. But both ethical and practical considerations 
lead us to the belief that America would be justified in proposing to 
act as mediator in the present crisis and in giving moral support to 
that growing section of the English people who are prepared to con- 
cede to Ireland her just rights as a nation. 

"If America and Great Britain were to cooperate in negotiating 
such a practical application of their own professed principles regard- 
ing small nations, we might then hope to see the principle of self- 
determination — which the Women's International League have as- 
serted to be the essential basis of a truly righteous and durable inter- 
national covenant — introduced into the constitution of the League of 
Nations, or (as we would prefer) of a new and more truly demo- 
cratic covenant. 

IRISH SPIRIT OF NATIONALITY UNCONQUERABLE 

"The Irish people have proved how unconquerable is the spirit of 
nationality. The peace and happiness of the world depend upon the 
measure of freedom given to that spirit. If Ireland wins her freedom 
now, the world will see a triumph of spiritual over material forces, 
and may look forward to the future with a diminished dread of dev- 
astating wars." 

Commissioner Addams: Thank you very much. We are very glad 
to get that in. I am sure the Commission is very grateful to these 
two ladies for coming over. They had a very uncomfortable jour- 
ney, which they braved for a long ten days to give this testimony 
before the Commission, and we appreciate it very much. 

The next hearing of the Commission is indefinite. We will come 
together on the call of the Chair. The hearing will now be con- 
sidered closed. 

(Thereupon, at 4:20 P. M., Wednesday, January 19, 1921, the 
Commission adjourned sine die.) 



1053 
EXHIBIT I 

SUBMITTED TO 

THE AMERICAN COMMISSION ON CONDITIONS 
IN IRELAND 

Memorandum on English Armed Aggression Against the Irish People 
Resulting in the Killing of Policemen 

In response to the request made by the Chairman of the American 
Commission on Conditions in Ireland during the testimony of Miss 
Mary MacSwiney, the following statement, tracing the development 
of the present British campaign of military terrorism, is respectfully 
submitted by counsel : 

NINETEEN HUNDRED SIXTEEN 
Following the rising in Dublin during Easter week, 1916, the British 
government instituted an aggressive and ruthless policy of suppression, 
designed to destroy the Republican movement. During this period the 
policy was directed particularly against those suspected of being leaders 
in the Republican movement. Many of the leaders who were taken prison- 
ers during the rising of Easter week, 1916, were executed under conditions 
which aroused vehement protest in England. At the same time a number 
of persons innocent of any official connection with the Republican move- 
ment were ruthlessly murdered in what have come to be known as the 
"King Street atrocities." In all thirty-eight Irish men and women were 
killed by the armed forces of the English government during the period 
May to December, 1916. The principal efforts of the British during 1916 
were, however, directed toward an attempt to conduct a complete "round- 
up" of all the leaders of the Republican movement, apparently upon the 
theory that if the leaders were removed the desire for freedom upon the 
part of the Irish people would be dissipated. In accordance with this 
policy there were, during the year 1916, 3,226 arrests and 1,949 deportations 
of men and women suspected of connection with the Irish Republican 
movement. Although the British courts were at this time functioning, 
the larger number of the thousands arrested were held in custody for long 
periods, and deported without trial and without any charge being formally 
lodged against them. 

NINETEEN HUNDRED SEVENTEEN 
During the twelve months of 1917 there were no police killed in Ireland, 
with the sole possible exception of an Inspector who was injured while 
leading a baton charge against Dublin civilians, and who died later of his 
injuries. But in that year the political suppression of the Irish people 
was carried out in every part of Ireland by English military and police. 
The houses of prominent Irishmen were forcibly entered and searched. 
Three hundred and forty-nine Irish men and women were arrested for 
political offenses. Twenty-four leaders of opinion in Ireland were deported 
without trial to England for unknown and undetermined periods. Public 
meetings were suppressed, and in many cases when efforts were made to 
hold them, they were forcibly broken up by armed military and police who 
used rifle butts, bayonets and batons on women and children as well as 
on men. Newspapers with nationalistic sentiments were suppressed, and 
a rigorous censorship maintained against all others. Civilians were 
brought before courts-martial and given savage sentences for "seditious 
speeches" and kindred offenses. Two innocent civilians were murdered 
by military and police; five died of maltreatment in prison; upwards of 
one hundred were wounded in baton and bayonet charges. None of the 
armed forces guilty of these offenses was ever brought to justice, and in 
two instances it is known that policemen against whom verdicts of murder 
or unjustifiable killing were returned were promoted by their authorities. 



1054 

NINETEEN HUNDRED EIGHTEEN 
hi the twelve months of 1918 there were no police killed in Ireland. 
The attempts to suppress the national movement in 1917 had resulted in 
failure. The establishment of the so-called Irish Convention, which was 
designed to break the national unity, was not successful, and in the year 
1918 the aggression against the Irish people by British military and police 
was intensified. Private residences to the number of two hundred and 
sixty were raided at night by armed agents of the English Government. 
One thousand one hundred and seven Irish men and women were arrested 
for political offenses. In May of 1918, seventy-seven leaders of the na- 
tional movement were arrested and deported without charge or trial. 
Warrants were issued for the arrest of many others, and as these were 
hunted down, later in the year, they were deported also without trial. 
Some forty proclamations were issued suppressing public meetings of 
national organizations. In spite of these proclamations the Irish people 
endeavored to hold public meetings. Eighty-one meetings, at which there 
was no disturbance or disorder, were broken up by baton and bayonet 
charges, and hundreds of men, women and children were wounded. Eleven 
National newspapers were suppressed. Many of the thousand Irish politi- 
cal prisoners were maltreated in prison, and one died of the effects of his 
treatment. Five Irish civilians were murdered by English military, and 
no punishment or even reproach was visited upon the murderers. 

In the year 1918 economic duress was added to the weapons with which 
the English military authorities hoped to break the national demand for 
self-determination. The natural forerunner of the present-day destruction 
of Irish mills, factories, and creameries showed itself in this one-sided 
ruthless war upon the Irish people. All fairs and markets were now 
suppressed by the English authorities in districts sympathetic with the 
movement for independence, thus effectively paralyzing the economic life 
of the rural districts. 

The Patience of the Irish People 
During these two years the Irish people bore this incessant provocation 
with what a certain distinguished foreign visitor to Ireland described as 
"an almost criminal patience." The national energies were devoted to 
upbuilding a great political organization by which the national demand 
for independence might be expressed constitutionally. In December, 1918, 
this peaceful organization bore fruit. The Irish people in the general 
election held during that month repudiated English authority in Ireland, 
and elected their own Parliame/nt and Government. This constitutional 
expression of the people's will, instead of being acknowledged by the Eng- 
lish Government, was replied to by that Government's troops and police 
with more intense aggression than ever. After two years a people pro- 
voked by ruthless suppression, raiding, arresting, deportation, armed as- 
saults and murder, began to prepare for the more intense measures they 
foresaw. They lucre not permitted to import arms or munitions for their 
defense. Therefore they decided to take arms from their oppressors. In 
January of 1919 the first policeman was shot in the struggle accompanying 
one of these raids for arms. The cry was at once raised in the English 
press that the Republican movement was led by murderers and terrorists, 
and should be sternly suppressed. Under cover of this cry, military and 
police aggression increased enormously. 

NINETEEN HUNDRED AND NINETEEN 
In the twelve months of 1919 fourteen thousand residences were raided 
a! night by armed military and police. Three hundred and thirty-five 
meetings were suppressed or proclaimed. Every National organization, 
even the elected Government, was declared illegal, and actii'c participation 
in its proceedings was decreed a criminal offense. Fairs and markets were 
suppressed in the counties of Cork, Clare, Mayo, Kerry, Limerick, Tip- 
perary. and Galway. Whole districts were brought to the verge of bank- 
ruptcy in the effort to force them to abandon the claim to independence. 



1055 

Four hundred and seventy-six armed attacks were made by troops and 
police upon peaceful and orderly gatherings of civilians. Two hundred 
and sixty Irish men, women and children were wounded by bayonet thrusts, 
rifle fire or the blows of rifle butts. Nine hundred and fifty-nine arrests- 
were made for political offenses. Twenty leaders, in addition to the hun- 
dreds already in prison, were deported. Twenty-five National newspapers 
were suppressed. Eight civilians were murdered by military and police, 
and no effort was made to bring the murderers to justice. 

The Killing of Policemen 
During the twelve months of 1919, sixteen policemen were killed in 
Ireland. The majority of them were killed in conflicts between armed 
bodies of men and police infinitely better armed. In these conflicts, which 
had as their one object the securing of arms, the police casualties have 
been advertised as "cowardly murders." There have been, in fact, on these 
occasions as many civilian casualties as there have been police casualties. 
None of these civilian casualties is counted as a murder in these lists. In 
spite of the 16,450 acts of armed aggression against the Irish people com- 
mitted by military and police in the year 1919, the national demand for 
independence was persisted in. 

No clearer statement has ever been made with reference to the question 
of the killing of policemen than that contained in an editorial in the 
London Nation of November 13, 1920, page 212, as follows : 

"The quarrel between Ireland and the British Government is not 
over murder. It did not begin with murder. It would not cease if 
murder ceased tomorrow'. In the course of the two years 1917 and 
1918 one single policeman was murdered. In those same two years 
there were 1,500 political arrests; fairs, markets, and other gatherings 
of unarmed men and women were broken up by violence, and the great 
majority of the men returned to Parliament by Irish constituencies 
were arrested or pursued by the Government." (Italics as in original.) 

NINETEEN HUNDRED TWENTY 
The policy of raids, suppressions, arrests, and widespread terrorism, 
which characterized 1919 proved to be futile, and instead of destroying 
the Republican movement, greatly increased its strength. On January 21, 
1919, the Republic of Ireland had been definitely established as the result 
of the mandate given for its establishment by the Irish electorate in the 
general election of December. 1918. A Parliament was created, and a 
government responsible to it was selected. Departments for the various 
offices of state were established. The organization of the Republic by the 
elected government was then begun. During the twelve months following. 
in spite of the active efforts of the British soldiers and police, the Irish 
Republic succeeded in establishing a dc facto government, recognized and 
supported by more than eighty per cent, of the Irish people. The Irish 
Republican courts superseded the British courts, and the British govern- 
ment in Ireland ceased to function throughout the greater part of the 
country, except for the activities of its spies, oolice, and soldiers. This 
was the condition described by the Honorable Herbert H. Asquith, when 
on June 2, 1919, he said : 

"Lord French is at present Viceroy of Ireland, which is the darkest 
of the dark spots on the map, not of Great Britain, but of the world." 
Later in the same year Hon. Herbert Samuel, former Cabinet Minister, 
said : 

"Ireland is now being governed under military law. If what is now 
going on in Ireland had been going on in the Austrian Empire, all 
England would be ringing with denunciation of the tyranny of the 
Hapsburgs and of denying people the right to ' rule themselves." 
(Speech at St. Albans, December 8, 1919.) 
The conclusive failure of the British policy of coercion during 1919 
came in the municipal elections held in January, 1920, in which the Re- 
publican policy was endorsed by even a greater majority than it had re- 



1056 

ceived in the general election of 1918. Inroads were made on the strong- 
holds of Unionism in Ulster, and conclusive proof was given to the world 
that coercion by arrests, suppression, and wholesale raids was increasing 
the determination of the Irish people to secure their independence. 

Inauguration of a Policy of Frightfulness 
The English Cabinet was thus brought to a realization that the ordinary 
methods of arrest and imprisonment which had been the ruling policy 
during 1919 would not break the spirit of the Irish people. During the 
last days of March, 1920, therefore, the adoption of a policy of organized 
military terrorism was decided upon by the English Cabinet. On March 
28, 1920, the London Daily Express, mouthpiece of Mr. Bonar Law, an- 
nounced that General Sir Nevil Macready, Chief Commissioner of the 
London Metropolitan Police, had been appointed commander-in-chief of 
the English Army of Occupation in Ireland. In making the announcement 
the Daily Express said : 

"His (Sir Nevil's) sudden appointment to Ireland and his dramatic 
departure from police headquarters indicates that once again the Gov- 
ernment requires a firmer hand on the military lever in Ireland, and 
that a new method of dealing with Irish disturbances is to be adopted." 
On March 29 the Pall Mall Gazette, the London evening organ of the 
English Prime Minister, referred to the appointment of Sir Nevil Macready 
and said: 

"The very wide powers to be conferred on him will enable him to 
employ not only the military and police forces at his discretion, but 
other means and forces will be available to deal with whatever circum- 
stances may arise." 
On April 3 the London Daily Mail said : 

"Sir Nevil Macready, who is leaving for Ireland shortly to take up 
his new post as commander of the forces there, has been given practi- 
cally a free hand by the Cabinet." 
On the same day the London Morning Post said: 

"Sir Nevil Macready is about to assume the command of the mili- 
tary forces in Ireland, and we assume that he is instructed to suppress 
the rebellion by whatever means may be requisite." 
On April 10 the press announced the retirement of those' among the high 
officials of the Royal Irish Constabulary who were known to be opposed 
to a policy of frightfulness. The officials who were ask-^d to retire were 
Air. W. M. Davies, Deputy Inspector General of the R. I. C, and Messrs. 
H. D. Tyacke and R. S. C. Flower, Assistant Inspectors General of the 
R. I. C. The press on the same day stated that these officials were to be 
replaced by Mr. C. A. Walsh, Mr. A. A. Roberts, and Mr. E. M. Clayton, 
officers who had proved their thoroughness in aggression. Some short 
time previously Inspector General Sir J. A. Byrne was removed from 
office and his place was taken by Mr. T. J. Smith, a notorious advocate 
of aggressive measures. 

On April 23 the London Daily Chronicle, semi-official organ of the 
English Coalition Government, stated : 

"The new policy which the Government has decided to adopt in 

Ireland is being rapidly developed. . . . General Macready has the 

full confidence of the Cabinet." 

On May 11, 1920, an English Cabinet meeting was held in London. 

Sir Nevil Macready was present at this Cabinet meeting and took part 

in its proceedings. On May 12, Mr. Bonar Law was asked a question in 

the English House of Commons as to what steps had been taken to secure 

greater coordination between military and police in Ireland. He replied : 

"I am glad there is an opportunity of answering that. General 

Macready has already taken most important steps, and yesterday, in 

consultation with a conference of the Cabinet, he had many other 

sugggestions to make, all of which will be granted by the Cabinet. He 

does believe that in a comparatively short time the changes he has 

made will show effect." 



1057 

On May 13, Lord Birkenhead (late Staff Officer of Sir Edward Carson's 
Volunteers), who was present at the Cabinet conference which had dis- 
cussed the "suggestions" of Sir Nevil Macready, spoke at a dinner in 
London, and said : 

"I cannot speak here tonight of what the Executive have done or to 

tell you of the conclusions they have reached; but I can tell you this, 

that as a Government we have decided to reinforce these men (the 

Constabulary) by every means in our power. . . . We have taken 

special and wholly exceptional steps." 

On June 19. Divisional Commissioner Smyth addressed the policemen 

in the police barracks at Listowel and outlined the new policy of the 

English Government, and instructed them as follows : ] 

1. "I am getting 7,000 police from England." 

2. "If a police barracks is burned, the best house in the locality is 
to be commandeered." 

3. "The police are to lie in ambush and to shoot suspects." 

4. "The more you shoot the better I will like you. . . . No police- 
man will get into trouble for shooting any man." 

5. "Hunger strikers will be allowed to die in jail — the more the 
merrier." 

6. "We want your assistance in carrying out this scheme and wip- 
ing out Sinn Fein." 

On the same day it was announced to the police in Tralee barracks that 
inquests on victims of police shootings were about to be abolished by the 
English Government. Some of the police to whom these announcements 
had been made resented them and made them public. 

It was denied by Sir Hamar Greenwood, English Chief Secretary for 
Ireland, on July 22, in the English House of Commons, that any such 
statements had been made, but on the following day, July 23, Inspector 
General T. J. Smith issued an order to the Royal Irish Constabulary an- 
nouncing that "the Government has directed" that no prisoners were to be 
released until they had served their sentences; in other words, "Hunger" 
strikers will be allowed to die." 

On August 2, the English Chief Secretary for Ireland introduced in the 
House of Commons the Restoration of Order in Ireland Bill, one of the 
clauses of which made coroners' inquests illegal. The Chief Secretary 
admitted in the introduction of this bill that it had been drafted in the 
previous June ; in other words, it was known in that month to the English 
officials in Ireland that it was the English Government's intention to sup- 
press coroners' inquests. All of the other points of Divisional Commis- 
sioner Smyth's review of the "special and wholly exceptional steps" the 
English Government had on May 11 decided to take in regard to Ireland 
have been borne out by events subsequent to the Commissioner's speech. 
Thousands of English recruits are being brought to Ireland as "police- 
men." Whenever a police barracks is burned, the houses of prominent 
Republicans are commandeered or burned by the "police." More than one 
hundred and fifty innocent civilians have been murdered since the Com- 
missioner's speech was delivered. That the Divisional Commissioner's 
address to the police in Listowel was an outline of the official policy of the 
English Government is no longer in doubt. 

The New Policy in Operation 
Meanwhlie, General Sir Nevil Macready's "suggestions" to the English 
Cabinet, "all of which" were approved by that Cabinet, were put into 
operation. During the five months following the English Cabinet meeting 
held in London on May 11, 1920, one hundred thirty-three Irish towns and 
villages were sacked, "shot up," or partially burned. Sir Nevil Macready, 
having "the full confidence of the Cabinet," has not shirked at taking 
responsibility for this policy of terrorism which, in the words of Divisional 

1 See testimony of Rev. M. M. English, pp. 66-67. 



1058 

Commissioner Smyth, has for its object "the wiping out of Sinn Fein." 
On September 23, two days after the sack of Balbriggan, which was ac- 
companied by the savage murder of Lawless and Gibbons, a secret order 
was issued to the English troops in Ireland by direction of the "G. O. C. 
in C." or General Sir Nevil Macready. In that secret order it was said : 

"There are indications that the measures recently taken by the Gov- 
ernment for the suppression of disorders in Ireland are beginning to 
bear fruit and have the desired effects in, at any rate, the more 
moderate sections of Sinn Fein. . . . Without being unduly optimis- 
tic, the Irish Government hope that if the pressure is maintained and 
if certain other measures which they have in view are successful, a 
great improvement in the situation may take place within the next 
two months." 
With reference to this "great improvement" predicted by General Mac- 
ready, The New Statesman, a London weekly, said editorially on Novem- 
ber 13, 1920: 

"Whatever doubts we may have about the facts of individual out- 
rages, Mr. Lloyd George and Sir Hamar Greenwood can no longer 
deny that men who, in the last resort, act under their orders commit 
numerous and atrocious crimes. They know that murder, theft and 
arson are becoming a commonplace in whatever part of Ireland the 
Black-and-Tans enter. They know that women and children have to 
hurry out of their beds at midnight to escape from houses deliberately 
set on fire by the agents of law and order. They know that men, 
including a priest and a policeman who resigned rather than take part 
in a 'shooting-up' orgy, have been dragged from their beds, stripped 
naked and flogged. They know that Army discipline itself is giving 
way before officially licensed brutality and violence. They know that 
British newspaper correspondents have been threatened with murder 
for speaking the truth. They know that Lord Bryce's sister-in-law, 
the daughter of a British officer, has been insulted by an officer in the 
present Army, and haled back from a British port to a prison cell in 
Ireland. They know that between thirty and forty creameries have 
been burnt down by Black-and-Tans, soldiers and police. They know 
that such a state of Government terrorism exists in Ireland as would 
seem horrible even under Turkish auspices in the Balkans." 
The history of the last three months of 1920 is one well known to the 
Commission through the testimony of eye-witnesses and expert English 
investigators. It is needless, therefore, to reiterate what is already con- 
tained in the Commission's records. The burning and sacking of farms, 
creameries, private houses, towns and even great cities like Cork ; the 
complete destruction of the economic and industrial life of the nation; 
the raids upon cathedrals, convents and institutions of learning; the mur- 
der of two priests under circumstances of the utmost brutality; and finally 
the murder of a woman (Mrs. Ellen Quinn) with her child in her arms 
and another about to be born, justified by Sir Hamar Greenwood as a 
"precautionary measure" — all these are matters which directly or indirectly 
have been brought to the attention of your honorable commission. They 
are the circumstantial evidence which proves that Divisional Inspector 
Smyth outlined to the policemen of Listowel barracks the official policy 
of the British Government in Ireland. 

NINETEEN TWENTY-ONE 
No new departure in policy appears during these months of unceasing 
outrages and atrocities until January 2, 1921, when an order was issued 
by the Brigade Major for Cork openly announcing a policy of reprisals 
without parallel in modern history. This statement as quoted verbatim in 
the Associated Press dispatches published in American papers of January 
3. 1921, reads as follows: 

"As the result of the ambush and attack on the police at Midleton 
and Glebehouse it was decided by the Military Governor that certain 
houses in the vicinity of the outrages were to be destroyed, as the 



1059 

inhabitants were bound to have known of the ambush and attack and 
that they neglected to give any information either to the military or 
police authorities. The following houses were duly destroyed between 
3 P. M. and 6 P. M. on Jan. 1. (List of houses destroyed appended.) 
"Previous to the burnings notice was served on the persons affected, 
giving them one hour to clear out valuables, but not furniture." 
This statement merely announces the consummation of the instructions 
contained in the proclamation of General Strickland, commanding the 
British forces in South Ireland: "The attitude of neutrality is inconsistent 
with loyalty, and will render such persons punishable." (New York 
Times, January 3, 1921.) It should be noted in this connection that the 
statement of the Brigade Major for Cork, quoted above, shows that the 
homes of the Irish people are to be burned merely upon suspicion that 
"the inhabitants were bound to have known" of the plans of the Repub- 
lican forces. 

These openly avowed declarations of British policy violate the Hague 
Convention of 1907, respecting the laws and customs of war on land, to 
which Great Britain was a signatory. The articles particularly violated 
are Articles Twenty-three (g) of Section II, and Forty-four and Forty-six 
of Section III, which read as follows: 

"Article 23 : In addition to the prohibitions provided by special 
conventions, it is particularly forbidden — 

"(g) To destroy or seize enemy property, unless such destruction 
or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war. 

"Article 44: A belligerent is forbidden to force the inhabitants of 
territory occupied by it to furnish information about the army of the 
other belligerent or about its means of defense. 

"Article 46: Family honor and rights, individual life, and private 
property, as well as religious convictions and worship, must be re- 
spected. Private property may not be confiscated." 
Reviewing this brief outline of British policy in Ireland, the conclusion 
is inescapable that from the beginning the policy has been one of ruthless 
extermination, which has grown bolder and bolder, and at last has been 
openly avowed as the Government of Great Britain has failed to hear the 
voice of any civilized nation officially raised in protest against her flagrant 
violations of international law governing warfare upon land, by which all 
civilized nations have solemnly pledged themselves to be bound. 

Respectfully submitted, 

Frank P. Walsh, Counsel. 
By B. M. M. 



EXHIBIT II 

MEMORANDUM ON BRITISH ATROCITIES IN 
IRELAND— 1916 THROUGH 1920 

The following statement of British atrocities in Ireland has been pre- 
pared in response to the request made by the Chairman of the American 
Commission on Conditions in Ireland in connection with the testimony of 
Miss Mary MacSwiney. This statement consists of two parts : 

First, a statistical summary of outrages committed by the armed forces 
of the English Government upon the people of Ireland from May, 1916, 
through December 31, 1920. 

Second, a summary and detailed list of the individuals slain by the 
armed forces of the British Government during the years of 1917 through 
1920, as compiled from court records, newspapers, and official records of 
the Irish Republican Government. 

Respectfully submitted, 

Frank P. Walsh, Counsel. 
By B. M. M. 



1917 1918 


1919 


1920 


Totals 


7 6 


8 


203* 


262 




4 


98f 


102 


24 91 


20 


467 


2,551 


18 81 


476 


834 


1,409 


11 260 


13,782 


24,171 


38,224 


349 1,107 


959 


4,109 


9,750 


2 32 


335 


106 


475 


3 12 


25 


i 


53 






42§ 


42 


36 62 


209 


212 


718 



1060 

PART I 

Summary of British Atrocities 
The following summary has been prepared from records compiled by 
the Government of the Irish Republic. These statistics in whole or in part 
have been repeatedly published by the Irish Republic and have never been 
controverted : 

1916 
from May 

Murders 38 

Towns sacked and burned 

Deportations 1,949 

Armed assaults on unarmed civilians 

Raids on private houses 

Arrests 3,226 

Proclamations and suppressions 

Suppressions of newspapers 13 

Creameries and manufacturing plants destroyed 

Courts-martial 199 

- • -- 5,425 450 1,651 15,818 30,242 53,586 

including 6 women, 12 children, 10 old men, and 2 priests. 

fTo October 12, 1920. 

$Not reported. 

§To November 30, 1920. 

PART II 

Summary of Persons Assassinated by British Armed Forces from 1917 

Through 1920 

During the four years, 1917 to 1920, 224 Irish men, women, and children 
have been assassinated by the armed forces of the British Government, 
as follows : 

1917 7 

1918 6 

1919 8 

1920 203 

The figures for 1920 are drawn from a cable just received from Mr. Art 
O'Brien, representative of the elected Government of Ireland in Great 
Britain. 

This cable further notes that of this 203 murders in 1920, there were 
6 women, 12 children, 10 old men, and 2 priests. 

A dispatch printed in the New York Times of January 5, 1921, giving a 
total of 212 persons assassinated by British police and military during 
1920, reported 9 killed in armed conflict, 36 while prisoners, 69 in their 
homes, and 98 by indiscriminate firing. But the foregoing summary does 
not include Irish casualties in acts of war. It is confined solely to the 
murder of unarmed and defenseless civilians by the armed forces of the 
Crown. 

(There follows a detailed statement giving date, name, address, circum- 
stances, and source of evidence of each murder covered by above summary, 
which detailed statement the Commission has on file for reference.) 
******** 

EXHIBIT III 

TERRORISM IN TUAM 

(The following documents were submitted in evidence by Miss Ellen 
Wilkinson, of Manchester, England. [See testimony, p. 604.] The origi- 
nal signed statements, duly authenticated, of which the following are true 
and correct copies, are in the possession of the Commission.) 



1061 

A 

RESIGNED CONSTABLE SCOURGED AND DRIVEN 

FROM TOWN 

First Statement of H. Ruddy 

Bishop St., Tuam, 25/9/20. 

I have to state that on the morning of 24/9/20, at about 2:15 A. M., 
I heard fierce knocking at my door. A man oustide said, "This is 
Ruddy's" ; "Open" ; "We want to get in." My Mrs. opened the door and 
five men came into my house; 4 of them entered my bedroom; one of them 
carried an electric flash lamp similar to those supplied to the police, the 
others had revolvers in their hands. The man who carried the torch said, 
"Are you Mr. Ruddy?" I said, "Yes." "Dress quick," he replied, "and 
come along with us." They then put me into a motor car which was 
waiting close to my house and drove to Parkmore Terrace, where they 
halted. Four of them got off the car and went to a house in the terrace. 
They returned shortly with Mr. Thos. Owens, head porter with Gt. South- 
ern & Western Railway. They put Owens into the car and drove as far 
as the Golf Links at Cloonascragh (2 miles from Tuam) on the Athenry 
Road, where they halted, got off the car, and asked me to come along, 
which I did. When we were about 40 yds. from the car, one of them said, 
"You are the turn-coat. You were in the police and resigned and turned 
Sinn Fein. You were seen leaving Galway the races day on a motor car 
with a Sinn Fein flag on the car. You are a Sinn Feiner now." One of 
them struck me on the face with his clenched fist and knocked me down. 
They then compelled me to take my trousers off, and put me in a stooping 
position with my hands resting on my knees ; then they cruelly scourged 
me with a hard, sharp instrument like a walking cane split through the 
center. The scourging lasted about 10 minutes, when one of them said, 
"That will do. There is your road home," — pointing towards Tuam. 
"Leave the town before a week or your house will be burned." 

There are several marks on my body which bled a good deal yesterday. 
They were all tall, strong men with English accents, and wore trench coats 
and caps, save the motor driver, who wore a policeman's uniform water- 
proof coat; this man spoke like an Irishman. The car was driven in the 
direction of Athenry, and I returned to my home, where I arrived about 
4 A. M. (Signed) Hugh Ruddy. 

The above statement was given to me by Mr. Ruddy on 25/9/20. 

(Signed) (Rev.) C. Hannan, Administrator, 

Tuam. 



Second Statement of H. Ruddy 

Tuam, 4/10/20. 
I wish to state that at about 3:30 A. M. on this date I was awakened 
by loud knocking at my door. I asked, "Who is there?" and a man out- 
side said, "Come on." I opened the door and about 10 or 12 men came 
into my house ; some were dressed in soldiers' uniform and some wore 
trench coats. One of the men covered me with a revolver and said, "Dress 
quick and come along." When I was dressed I asked, "What is all this 
about?" and one man said, "We gave you 7 days to leave the town, and 
what steps have you taken to leave?" I said, "I have no place to go to, 
and therefore I must remain." He then said, "You are getting £3 a week 
Sinn Fein money. You are employed by the Town Commissioners, who 
are a Sinn Fein body." I said, "I must live ; I am alive and cannot die." 
He then said, "When you had a good job you did not remain in it; seem- 
ingly you prefer Sinn Fein money to the King's money, and by your 
remaining in this town you are insulting your late comrades. The fact 
that you are walking around the town is an insult to your comrades, arid 
you are a disgrace to them." He then presented a revolver and said, 
"Come along." My Mrs. then commenced screaming, and she said, "I will 



1062 

go also," when one of the raiders said to me, "We will give you 4 days 
more to leave the town, and if you are not gone then we will make a bon- 
fire over you and we will give you no chance of escaping." 

(Signed) Hugh Ruddy, 

Ex-Constable, R. I. C. 
This statement was handed to me today by Mr. Ruddy. 

(Signed) (Rev.) C. Hannan, Administrator, 

Tuam, 4/10/20. 

B 
IRISH TRADES UNION OFFICIALS FLOGGED 

Statement of Thomas Owens, Parkmore Terrace, Tuam, County Galway 

On the morning of the 24th September last at about 3 A. M. I was 
taken from my house at Parkmore Terrace, Tuam, by a party of uniformed 
auxiliary police (R. I. C.) and conveyed by them in a motor lorry to a 
lonely part of the country some four miles distant where, having been first 
stripped of my trousers, I was brutally beaten by them with their belts, 
the buckled ends of which were applied to my back and body generally in 
a merciless manner for a considerable time. I was then allowed to walk or 
rather to crawl home (was told to run but was unable) as best I could, 
many shots being discharged over my head as I went away. 

As result of the beating I received at the hands of those men I have 
been since then unable to resume work, and have been medically treated 
by Dr. Thos. B. Costello of Tuam. At present the wounds on my back 
resulting from the beating are almost healed up, but I am still being treated 
in hospital here for blood-poisoning in my hand resulting from the beating 
with brass-buckled belts. My hand is in a very critical condition (as Dr. 
Costello can testify), the blood-poisoning having penetrated as far as my 
shoulder, and gives me intense pain at times. According to the Doctor's 
opinion my arm will not be well for many weeks to come. 

On the day after I was subjected to this barbarous treatment, my wife 
and family being in a state of nervous excitement and extreme terror 
(wife within a fortnight of child-birth) as result of occurrence, found it 
necessary to remove to a friend's house some 45 miles away, where they 
still remain, being too terrified to return. 

Why I have been subjected to such brutal treatment by those members 
of the R. I. C. Auxiliary Force I can assign no reason whatever, as I 
have never actively participated in politics other than voting at election 
time, my attention being strictly confined to Trades Union Principles. 
(Signed) Thomas Owens, Railway Porter, 

Gr. Southern & Western Railway. 

Stephen Kane, Secretary of Tuam Trades Council, Brutally Beaten 
Mr. Stephen Kane is a shop assistant in Tuam, where he has been for 
some years. On the night of September 20, 1920, he was in the Hibernian 
Hall when a party of Black-and-Tans entered and ordered "Hands up," 
and everyone was searched, Mr. Kane among the number. A letter was 
found on him from the Trades Council in Dublin and addressed to him 
as the local secretary for Tuam. It contained nothing of a seditious char- 
acter. He was taken to the Police Barracks, which are quite near, and 
brought before two Black-and-Tan officers and the District Inspector of 
Police, and asked was he secretary to the Trades Council. He replied that 
he was. He was also asked for the names of the President and members 
of the Council. He replied that he did not know them. He was kept at 
the Barracks from 10 P. M. till 9 A. M. 

About 2 A. M. an officer put him in charge of three Black-and-Tan men 
with rifles and bayonets and he was brought to the door, where he heard an 
officer say, "Take him out and give him hell !" They walked him about 10 
yards, when one of the men suddenly struck him a vicious blow on the head, 
then a second one, also on the head, and again a third one on his jaw, which 
he said would have stretched him but that he put up his hand and some- 



1063 

what saved his face. (I saw today, Nov. 1st, that his finger is still sore 
and swollen from the blow.) Before leaving the Barracks he was made 
to swear and sign twice that he would resign the secretaryship of the 
Trades Council. He was then brought up as far as the Square and made 
to sit on the seat outside the Hotel for about half an hour. The officer 
with him then proceeded to conduct him home, but on the way they met 
another officer with 3 men who ordered him back to the Barracks again. 
A lorry stood at the Hotel door, and he was ordered to get into it, and 
immediately ordered out again — finally to the Barracks, where he was left 
in the day room by the fire. His face was covered with blood from the 
blows, but he was not given any means of bathing it. 

At 9 A. M. he was told to go home, and again threatened that if he did 
not resign or was found at any club he would be shot. He returned home 
to find that his rooms had been searched and the minute-book of his society 
and a book of rules of same, also some private letters, had been taken ; 
these have not since been returned. Among his private correspondence 
was a letter from his brother, who is a policeman in the North of Ireland, 
in which he stated that he would be able to resign in November, having 
completed his fifteen years' service, and that he was very glad of it, as he 
was fed up with the life he was leading. 

On Sat., Oct. 23rd, he was sent for to the Police Barracks, where he 
was interviewed by the County Inspector, who asked him some questions, 
and during the interview was writing on a sheet of paper in front of him. 
He read the statement he had written to Mr. Kane and also gave it to him 
to read. After reading it, Mr. Kane said he did not consider it an accu- 
rate statement and refused to sign it. "Oh !" said the C. I. to a police 
sergeant who was present, "he refuses to sign it." He was then told he 
might go and that he might continue his secretaryship. 

Note. — The following paragraph was taken from the Irish Independent 
of Sat., Oct. 30, 1920, and in view of the foregoing facts, which are quite 
accurate, it throws some light on the manner in which inquiries are con- 
ducted on behalf of the Government: 

"Treatment of Mr. S. Kane, Tuam 
"Questioned by Mr. F. Roberts as to the treatment by the police of 
Mr. S. Kane, Tuam. Sir H. Greenwood said he was arrested on Sep- 
tember 20 in a building in which seditious documents were found. 
He was detained in the barracks for some hours pending inquiry. He 
was not asked to resign membership of the I. T. and G. W. U., and 
the statements that he was kept in the street, beaten to the ground 
with rifle butts, and frequently assaulted, are entirely untrue." 

c 

WANTON FIRING AT PEOPLE ON HIGHWAY 

On Friday, Oct. 8th, we, John Connor, Carrarea, and Michael Kenny, 
Beaugh, being working on the Tuam-Dunmore road at Gallagh, were sit- 
ting on the wall taking our dinners when four lorries of uniformed men 
(uniform black) came along. When about 300 yds. from us they fired two 
shots. Then I, John Connor, turned and lay flat on the ground, and 1. 
Michael Kenny, stood up and put up my hands. A little girl — a daughter 
of Michael Kenny's — standing beside us also put up her hands. While 
lying on the ground I, John Connor, got a bullet — the third shot — in the 
hip. They fired altogether about eight or nine shots. When passing us 
out, the men in the lorries shouted at us to put our hands up higher, and 
one of them said, "There is one wounded; let him have another." They 
indulged in cursing and shouting while passing us out. 

(Signed) John Connor. 

Michael Kenny. 

Witness : Rev. Francis C. Lynch, C. C, Tuam. 



1064 

-EXHIBIT IV 

OFFICIAL FALSEHOOD TO CONCEAL MURDER: 

THE CASE OF CONNOR CLUNE 

Note. — Cases have repeatedly come before the Commission where the 
justification alleged by the Crown forces for shooting Irish civilians has 
been their connection with the "murder gang" — the Irish Republican Army, 
— and their attempts to escape after they have been made prisoner. Affi- 
davits proving the falsity of the official report in two such cases are in- 
cluded in the testimony (pp. 767-9, 772-3; see also p. 931). The complete 
evidence in the Connor Clune case is presented here, because (1) the relia- 
bility, social standing, and integrity of the relator, Mr. Edward Lysaght, 
are not open to question; (2) Mr. Lysaght's statement of facts directly 
convicts the British Government in Ireland of untruthfulness in attempting 
to justify this murder; (3) the false official version was published in the 
press before even the military inquiry had reported its findings ; and (4) 
Mr. Lysaght was punished for giving truthful evidence contrary to the 
official report by being imprisoned (see testimony, p. 1046), by the raiding 
and robbery of his home, and by the destruction of the cooperative enter- 
prise of which he was the manager. 

A 
THE OFFICIAL VERSION 

(From the London Times, 24 November, 1920) 
SINN FEIN LEADERS KILLED 

DESPERATE FIGHT IN GUARD ROOM 



MURDER GANG MEMBERS 
(From Our Own Correspondent) 

Dublin, November 23. 

A graphic story of the shooting of three prisoners during an at- 
tempt to escape from military custody is published today in an official 
report issued from Dublin Castle. The men were well-known mem- 
bers of the Irish Republic organization, and their arrests were re- 
garded as of some importance. 

They were taken in Dublin on Saturday night. Two of them were 
together in the same bed and among other articles found in the room 
were two complete suits of the uniform of a British colonel. The 
third man was captured in Vaughan's Hotel, Rutland-square. 

So many men were in custody in the various places of detention in 
the city that these three — Richard McKee, T. C. Clune. and Peter 
Clancy — were taken to a house in Exchange-court, off Dame-street, 
which until recently was used as the headquarters of the Detective 
Division of the Metropolitan Police. The Official Report, after telling 
of the arrests, describes the guard room in which they were confined 
in Exchange-court, with a guard of four men. It says : 

The three prisoners suddenly rose to their feet, and the sentry 
turned round on hearing the noise. One of the prisoners had a Mills 
bomb in his hand, which he had abstracted from a box of bombs 
under a bed. This he threw at the sentry. The bomb did not ex- 
plode because, unknown to the prisoner, none of the bombs had been 
detonated. The sentry jumped to one side, and the prisoner, throw- 
ing a second bomb, dashed behind a pile of mattresses when the sentry 
fired. 

Another of the prisoners meanwhile had seized a rifle and fired at 
the other members of the guard. Both ducked behind the table, which 



1065 

was upset, and the shot lodged in the wall. The third prisoner lifted 
a shovel lying near the fire and aimed a blow at the men who were 
crouching behind the overturned table. The shovel crashed into the 
wood, but missed the men. 

The commander of the guard, hearing firing, at this moment rushed 
into the room and fired. This sudden diversion enabled both his com- 
panions to rise from the table, and as they fired together the second 
and third prisoners fell simultaneously. The whole affair lasted only 
a few seconds. 

It is presumed that the prisoners, who had seen all the movements 
of the garrison since Saturday night, had observed that at 11 o'clock 
more of the men were out on duty and that 'they were practically alone 
in the building with the guard of twelve men. 

T. C. Clune was a lieutenant in the 1st Battalion, Clare Brigade, 
I. R. A. He was arrested about 10 :30 on Saturday, November 20, at 
Vaughan's Hotel, Dublin. When the officers arrived there he tried to 
get from the lounge to another room, but was held up. He had been 
staying at the hotel for a number of days, but had not registered. 
He asserted that he had trusted an employee of the hotel to book for 
him, but on his being confronted with this individual his statement 
was denied. He had no luggage. He was unable to give a satisfactory 
account of his movements, and a letter was found on him connecting 
him with a number of persons in custody and others who are now 
evading arrest. His pocket-book contained some information as to 
his associates, as well as a number of names, among which are those 
of Michael Collins, Sean Tracey, and other lesser-known members of 
the I. R. A. There were also some notes on the procuring of pass- 
ports. 

Reports from the country this morning told of searches of public 
offices all over Ireland, the seizure of books and documents, and of 
numerous arrests. Again tonight reports from the provinces tell of 
numerous arrests made during the day, and altogether the number of 
people taken into custody in Dublin and the country during the past 
few days must run into hundreds. 

B 

THE FACTS ABOUT CONNOR CLUNE 

As Given by Mr. Edzvard Lysaght, Raheen, Tuamgraney, County Clare 
Connor Clune was managing clerk of Raheen Rural Industries, of which 
Mr. Lysaght is managing partner. He had been in this firm's employ for 
seven years. Raheen Rural Industries is a firm of farmers, nurserymen, 
woodworkers and contractors, employing about 90 men. 

Connor Clune has been known to Mr. Lysaght for the last seven years. 
Mr. Lysaght had always a high opinion of his character, and of late, since 
Clune had been head clerk, had been on terms of intimate friendship with 
him, as they were both deeply interested in the economic development of 
Raheen and of the country in general. For the last six months Mr. Ly- 
saght had walked with Clune practically every evening, and had been away 
with him for holidays, etc. They had, as everyone does in Ireland, dis- 
cussed politics to a great extent; neither of them belonged to any political 
organization ; both of them were opposed to the use of physical force ; they 
were both immensely interested in economic development, and were both 
Irish speakers, belonging to an Irish speaking society called "Fainne," 
which is an entirely non-political society, besides being very small and 
little known, and has never been interfered with in any way by the Gov- 
ernment. 

Mr. Lysaght is perfectly convinced that Mr. Clune was not and never 
had been a lieutenant of the Irish Republican Army; his political doc- 
trines would have been against this. Mr. Clune was never, moreover, "on 
the run." nor were his movements ever anything but perfectly open. For 
instance, he never slept away from home except when occasionally sent to 



1066 

Dublin or elsewhere on his firm's business. All this can be vouched for 
by Dennis MacMahon, of Raheen, County Clare, another chief employee 
of Raheen Rural Industries. 

The annual audit of a section of the Raheen Rural Industries was due 
on Monday, November 22. At the last moment Mr. Lysaght decided that 
he would send Clune to Dublin for this audit instead of the man who 
usually did it, and who was needed at home. As Mr. Lysaght was him- 
self going to Dublin by car on Friday, November 19, and as the railway 
trouble had rendered the trains most uncertain, Mr. Lysaght decided to 
take Clune with him by car on Friday, November 19, the appointment with 
the auditor for the audit. of the books having been fixed for the follow- 
ing Monday (22d). The journey to Dublin was therefore made on Fri- 
day, by car, and the occupants of the were Mr. Lysaght, Mr. Clune, and 
an employee of the works, named Con Barrett, who was to learn to drive 
the car. They reached Dublin about 3 p. m. Mr. Lysaght spent the night 
at his Dublin flat, and Mr. Clune at the lodgings he was accustomed to 
stay at when in Dublin at 54, Haddington Road, kept by Miss Lynam. 

On Saturday morning Mr. Lysaght again spent a considerable time with 
Clune, and the latter told him that he had been to see the auditor and had 
confirmed the appointment for the audit of the books on Monday. The 
auditor was the Irish Agricultural Organization Audit Department at 
Plunkett House, the name of the auditor either Swayne or Cassidy, and 
the section of the business of which the books were to be audited was the 
Raheen Co-operative Society. Mr. Lysaght lunched with Mr. Clune at 
Mitchell's shop in Grafton Street, Dublin, went for a walk with him and 
another friend after lunch, and parted from Clune about 3 p. m. Clune 
had asked him to spend the evening with him and go to a theater, but 
owing to another engagement Mr. Lysaght was unable to do this. He 
heard nothing more of Clune till he heard a rumor of his arrest on Mon- 
day morning. Mr. Lysaght spent from early on Monday morning until 
11 a. m. on Tuesday trying to find out his whereabouts, but could obtain 
no information from official sources. Plunkett House also made every 
possible attempt to get some information from the authorities, but without 
success. On Tuesday morning Mr. Lysaght went in despair to a Dublin 
solicitor to see what could be done ; and while he was there, the solicitor's 
clerk rushed in with the news that the three prisoners in Dublin Castle, 
including Clune, had been shot; this had just come out in the stop press 
edition of the press. Mr. Lysaght and his solicitor went instantly to Dub- 
lin Castle and asked to see the body. They were sent to the George V 
Hospital, where the body had been taken, and spent some hours there, 
without being allowed to see the body. Finally the Castle was rung up by 
the Chief Medical Officer and the reply came that Mr. Lysaght was not to 
be permitted to see the body. Eventually the Medical Officer made the 
identity quite certain by a written description of the clothes. Mr. Lysaght 
then left with his solicitor, leaving his address and saying that he would 
give evidence at any inquiry if wanted. 

On reaching home on Tuesday after lunch Mr. Lysaght found a tele- 
phone message awaiting him. summoning him to give evidence at a mili- 
tary inquiry. He went instantly to this inquiry, and found that it was a 
secret military inquiry, consisting of a President, Captain Ansted, who Mr. 
Lysaght is under the impression belonged to the Wiltshires, and two junior 
officers (these two could probably be identified, as they also signed the 
burial order and the accompanying warning as to funeral processions). 
The witnesses were only allowed to come one at a time into the court 
(though when Mr. Lysaght had finished giving his evidence his solicitor 
was permitted to come in and read it before Mr. Lysaght signed it). The 
only questions asked of Air. Lysaght at this secret inquiry were questions 
of identification. Mr. Lysaght insisted, however, on making a statement as 
to the character of Clune, and as to his traveling up from County Clare on 
the previous day. At that time he had not seen the Dublin Castle statement 
as to the affair, and did not therefore know that allegations had been made 
as to Clunes' pocketbook, etc. 



1067 

Within ten minutes of coming out of the secret inquiry, Mr. Lysaght 
bought an afternoon paper, and found printed in it the Dublin Castle offi- 
cial report of the shooting of the prisoners — which therefore must have 
been issued before the secret inquiry reported. In this Dublin Castle re- 
port he first saw statements as to the incriminating pocketbook, letter, etc. 

The next day, Wednesday, November 24, Mr. Lysaght was allowed to 
remove the body. He had to act altogether alone in this matter, as Clare 
is almost completely cut off from Dublin, owing to the railway trouble. 
On the 25th he received the personal effects, with the exception of a pocket- 
book and tie-pin (the latter is the pin worn by members of the Irish- 
speaking Society to which Chine belonged). In signing for the receipt of 
the effects, Mr. Lysaght mentioned that they were missing, and sent a 
formal demand for them to the Garrison Adjutant, Dublin District. (Not 
yet received.) 

Dublin Castle Statement False 

Mr. Lysaght particularly emphasied the totally incorrect information 
given in the Dublin Castle statement. He is perfectly convinced, for the 
reasons given above, that Clune had nothing to do with the I. R. A. ; his 
name was Connor Clune, and not T. C. Clune, as stated by Dublin Castle ; 
he had only arrived in Dublin the previous day, and was not staying at 
Vaughan's Hotel. Mr. Lysaght is convinced that the pocketbook found 
upon Clune was the usual note-book carried by himself, Clune, and the 
other officials of the Raheen Rural Industries. It contained odd notes ; the 
fact that it contained the names Collins and Tracey is not to be wondered 
at, as the Raheen Rural Industries had an employee called Tracey who 
had applied for a sick-ticket, and it was therefore likely that he should be 
mentioned in the note-book. As regards the name of Collins, Mr. Lysaght 
had an appointment with a solicitor of that name on the day before Clune 
was arrested, and Clune may well have made a note of this in his book; 
or the name "Mullins," an employee of the firm, may have been mistaken 
for M. Collins. Re. the passport notes mentioned in the Dublin Castle Re- 
port, Mr. Lysaght had since May, 1918, procured passports for his mother, 
wife, and for his children's governess, and the correspondence relating to 
these had passed through the Raheen office, so that it is very probable that 
Clune had jotted down notes in his book about obtaining them. With re- 
gard to the letter stated to have been found on Clune, Mr. Lysaght, not 
having seen the letter, cannot say what it was, but is convinced that it 
could be easily explained by Clune's friends. 

c 

STATEMENT BY MRS. KATHERINE LYSAGHT RE- 
GARDING RAID AND ROBBERY OF HOME AND 
DESTRUCTION OF COOPERATIVE SOCIETY 

On Friday, November 26, the R. I. C. Auxiliary Force made a raid on 
Raheen while all the members of the office staff and most of the workmen 
were at the funeral of Connor Clune. At the Manor House they broke 
open the doors of the business offices of the Raheen Rural Industries and 
searched for papers; they forced locks of presses, and threw such corre- 
spondence, bills, ledgers, etc., as they did not confiscate over the floors of 
both rooms. They entered the large room used as a store for the goods 
of the Raheen Workers' Cooperative Society, and carried away practically 
all groceries, jam, bacon, boots, etc., and most of the remainder they spoilt 
by spilling contents of parcels and tins: e. g., the only things intact were 
bags of flour tou heavy to remove. The whole store was ransacked and 
left in confusion. While they were carrying away the loot they fastened 
four men who had remained at Raheen and not gone to the funeral into 
the garage. At the private residence they made a complete search and 
carried away papers, two boxes of cigars, boxes of toilet soap, and a cer- 
tain amount of clothing. 



1068 

On the following afternoon a large party of this force returned. Those 
who went to the Manor House, though offered keys, continued the de- 
struction of doors by breaking panels and forcing an entrance, and com- 
pleted the search they had begun on the previous day. In addition to the 
goods taken from the Cooperative Store, three bicycles, a typewriter, the 
leather post-bag, files of telegrams, bills and receipts and business papers ; 
also private correspondence, much of it unopened, awaiting Mr. S. R. 
Lysaght's return, were carried away, and the remainder strewn about the 
floors. 

The private residence, which is in charge of a caretaker during the ab- 
sence of the family, was entered, and the woman who was engaged in set- 
ting the house in order after the previous day's raid was ordered "Hands 
up." She and a lady who had been a nursing sister in France for several 
years during the war were in the house during the whole time the Aux- 
iliaries searched and carried away a great quantity of clothing, etc. 

Mr. S. R. Lysaght, who is away in Australia, had left his private deed 
box locked. This was burst open and manuscripts scattered about. All 
his shooting suits and thick cloth suits were taken — twelve in all — also sev- 
eral suits of E. Lysaght's, four overcoats, a large quantity of socks and 
stockings ; two large presses of underclothing were completely emptied and 
the contents taken. Every available bag and valise in the house was taken 
to carry away loot, in addition to the bags brought by the raiders. A pic- 
ture was cut out of the frame and a valuable Japanese bowl and even 
Japanese table centers taken. They spent some time in examining every 
box and drawer in the room occupied by myself, and took underclothing, 
an evening dress-bodice, a wrist watch of my daughter-in-law's, and various 
other things. What was not taken was left in utter confusion and much 
of it trampled underfoot. 

A roll top desk was forced open and most of the contents confiscated. 
While this was being done a bottle of brandy unopened and a half bottle 
were found. The half bottle was drunk and the lady who was standing by 
was ordered to get a corkscrew to open the other, but she refused, and 
took the bottle of brandy and would not give it up. 

I do not yet know the complete extent of the depredation. Things of 
various kinds were picked up outside, left by the raiders: e. g., six spoons 
and a photograph in a frame under a tree close to the house ; a hat here 
and a shirt there, and so on. My daughter-in-law being in France, I am 
unable to give a detailed list of her losses, but these are certainly con- 
siderable, as her presses in which she left a good deal of clothing were 
rifled. A sovereign and two half-sovereigns, christening presents to my 
little grandson, were taken and a receipt given for them. 

Before the house was left by the family everything had been put in 
order, and keys given to the caretaker so that if Crown forces wished to 
search again they could do so without causing anv disturbance. The house 
had already been twice searched by the military in October, but in a very 
different manner from the recent raids. 

(Signed) Katherine Lysaght. 
(Mrs. S. R. Lysaght.) 



1069 



SUBJECT INDEX 

For index of witnesses, see pp. XII-XIY. 

The suffix n following page number refers to footnote. 



Abbeyfeale Page 

Abbeyfeale 66566, 673, 679 

murders in 668 

people terrorized 666 

mark of respect for dead forbidden 681-82 

town hall burned 666 

sacked and looted 666 

Abercorn, Duke of 143 

Aberdeen, Countess of 461 

Act of Union 225-27, 940 

destroys Irish industries 229-30 

Ireland's right to break 225-26 

opposed by Grattan 236 

passed by fraud and perjury 233-35 

Scotland and Wales contented with . 596. 607, 951 

suppressed Irish Parliament 226-27 

tax exploitation since 488-90, 945-52 

violated by England 235-36 

uprising provoked to justify 232 

Adamson, Hon. W 19. 1026 

Adare 383, 407, 419 

Addams, Jane, member of the Commission., vii 

Admiralty marines disperse raiders 687 

Agents provocateurs 594. 623, 887 

Aghada, American property stolen 249 

Agriculture 7, 903, 938 

arterial drainage 466 

Compulsory Tillage Act 469-70 

Congested Districts Board 494*97 

cooperative agricultural societies 38, 991 

cooperative development of land 494, 960 

destruction of. See Burning of farms and 
hayricks. 

development of 619 

displaced by grazing 936-38 

decreased population 497.-99, 936, 938-39 

impoverishes Ireland 936-7 

farmers, discrimination against 444 

fertility of soil 459. 481. 495, 1008 

grant for 955 

inquiry into condition of 244 

Ireland limited to 467 

Irish Agricultural Organization Society.... 152, 
4444-45. 584. 619, 984-85, 99 1 - 994. 995. 
996, 998, 1066. 

Land Acts, effect of 238-41, 453-54, 495-96, 

590, 944, 1008. 

Minister of 972 

poverty of peasants 453-54, 495-97 

prosperity of 239, 943-44 

destroyed by England ... 580-81, 583-84, 590, 
698, 936-37- 

limited 454, 458 

students of 169 

undivided estates. 494-97, 497-99. 1008, 1010. 1014 
See also Farmers and Land. 

Ahada 709 

Albert, Father, terrorized and imprisoned. .1037-38 
Alien landlordism. . .238-39, 240-41, 443, 485, 498, 
937 - 38, 960-61, 1009. 
See also Land Acts. 

Alsace-Lorraine 140, 146 

Ambushes: 

alleged to justify reprisals 586. 828, 995 

by police 66, 1051 

creameries never used as 995-96 

neighboring houses ordered destroyed. 804-5, io 59 
of police and soldiers. ... 149, j^6. 409, 521, 605, 
666, 778, 838, 882, 1058. 

occur in country 804 

reason for 592, 805-7 

regarded as act of war. .256,-57, 372, 595, 
621-22, 805-6. 
America 197 



American Ambassador Page 

disturbed by conditions in Ireland 4, 577 

England borrowing from 213, 240 

Gaelic League exhibit 1032 

help and sympathy appreciated. ... 183, 301, 306 

barriers to 251 

expected 712, 848 

Ireland's right to 851 

needed 231, 338, 340, 935 

practical reasons for 1052 

1 rishmen fight for 214 

justice and fair play asked 336-7, 1052 

moral conscience of ix, x, 1052 

recognition of Republic requested 302, 971 

relief ship from Ireland 238, 338 

slur upon 505 

suppositous forced union with England.... 235 

war aims ix, 1052 

failed to achieve 214-15 

sincerity of 850-51 

American Ambassador, London 536-37 

Association for Recognition of the Irish Re- 
public 172 

citizens, assaulted and beaten. .. .790, 874-77, 
879- 885, 886, 889-90. 

blacklisted 368 

citizens ignored 55, 679, 872, 875, 890 

insulted 691-92, 872 

property confiscated 56-57 

searched 55-57, 679, 681, 680 

stolen 249 

robbed 877, 888, 890 

searched 71, 72, 679, 681, 682, 705, 

711-12, 871-73, 887, 891. 

Civil War 225-26 

Commission for Relief in Belgium 61 1 

Commission on Conditions in Ireland. vi-viii, ix-x 

confronts crisis 488 

effect on English opinion x, 576-77 

first-hand evidence wanted 341-42 

503-5, 931-32- 

hearings of ix, 5 

impartial 4, 5, 183, 505 

mission of inquiry to England and Ireland 5 

motive and purpose ix-x, 4 

origin 3 

peace promoted x, 336 

personnel vi 

protests attempted murder of witness. .. .644n 
obstruction of witnesses by American 

consul 537 

Report of x, 5-1 

Secretariat viii 

service to humanity appreciated 183, 340 

specific evidence wanted 492, 503—4 

to ascertain facts about Ireland 5 

witnesses. See Witnesses. 

Commission on Irish Independence 6,7 

consul, hinders coming of witnesses. .534-37. 998 
protection proffered Americans abroad... 686, 

877. 

secures no redress for insult to flag. .. .685-86 

for outrage on American . .876-77 

consul-general 535, 536 

Hag, 375; insulted by raiders 685-86, 687 

fleet .' 965 

gold 213 

imperialists in Philippines 445 

insane asylums, Irish in 454 

journalists 175 

meat trust . 985-86, 988 

mediation ethiqal and practical 1051-52 

news, distortion of 578 

press, fed English-censored news 784-85 

gives scant publicity to Irish atrocities. .785-86 



1070 



Americans Page 

Red Cross. See Red Cross, American. 

Revolutionary War 334 

Ireland refuses to help crush 227 

parallel to Ireland's fight 225-26, 850-51 

sailors in Cork, admired by people 652-53 

beaten by Black-and-Tans 874-77, 879, 

885, 886, 889-90. 

held up and robbed 871-73- 877, 887, 888 

passports taken from 877, 888 

searched by British Government 968 

unable to get redress 876-77 

ships, captain subjected to indignities 890 

crews searched 968 

debarred from Cork harbor 968-69 

trade with Ireland 168, 204, 653, 

967, 968-69, 971. 

Britain interferes with 619-20, 967-71 

Irish consular service -.935. 966-67 

passenger service to Cork prohibited. . .968-69 

U. S. Mail Steamship Co. service 619, 

963, 966, 969. 

Women's International League 531 

Americans, anti-Irish 336, 338, 340 

hatred of _ 686, 872, 875 

"Anarchy, Grammar of" 205, 229 

and arson supplant justice 35, 624 

and terrorism British policy 617-18, 624 

Ancient Order of Hibernians 208 

Anderson, R., Protestant, condemns murder of 

priest 7 1 6 

Anderson, R. A., publicist 996, 998 

Anglo-American alliance 183 

Antrim, County.... 475. 760 

Apologist deliberately insincere 175 

Arbitration courts. See Courts. 

Archangel 176 

Ardiprior, shooting of Patrick Noonan 77i~73 

Arklow, police bomb and wreck 823 

Armagh, County 699, 760 

Armenia *4° 

Arms and ammunition: 

captured from Crown forces. . . .365, 650, 687-88, 
794-95, 806-7, 907-8. 

imported from Germany 144. 145, 175, 204, 

206-7, 54'. 607, 648, 651. 

penalty for possessing 80, 91, 3 52n, 

592, 64811, 866, 934. 

pretense alleged for outrages 994-96 

raids for S3, 154, 592, 632, 636, 690-91, 

693, 701-2, 1037, 1054, 1055. 

Arnold, Matthew 1 043 

Arrest, absence of security from 720, 740 

alleged attempt to escape from, excuse for 

murder 61, 89, 160, 373, 74, 392, 

688-89, 766-67, 768-69, 772-73, 811, 813, 
1042, 1045, 1064-67. 

for acts previously legal 68 

number of 600, 815, 1053-55, to6o 

of public officials 20-21, 24, 16111, 212, 218, 

268-69, 283, 306, 356, 469-71. 483-84. 597, 
720-21, 734-35, 736, 755, 1055. 

daily danger cf 720-2 1 

resignations ready in case of 743 

of women 218-19, 327, 645-46, 744, 1058 

political 469, 648, 744-46, 756, 883, 906 

wholesale 143, 212, 2*18, 222, 471 

473-74, 542, 543, 705, 720-21, 815, 899. 
1027, 1039, 1053, 1054, 1055, 1056, 1060, 
1065. 
Arson. See Burnings. 

Arterial drainage 465-66 

Ashe, Thomas, dies in prison 470 

Askeaton, police attack cooperators 986-87 

Asquith, Hon. Herbert II 206, 210, 468, 

601, 839, 971, 11155. 

duplicity of 219-20 

favors dominion home rule 540, 573 

Alhlone 47-'-/3, 59 6 , 598 

Atrocities. See Beating and Flogging, British 
atrocities, Burnings. Civilians, atrocities 
on, Looting, Murders. Torture", Terrorism, 
etc. 
Attacks on Barracks. See Barracks. 



Barracks Page 

Auctions, permits denied Republicans 388 

Augustine, Father 271 

Australia 1 39, 609 

Austria 140, 454, 1055 

Automobiles, confiscated 583, 679-80 

Ford factory, Cork 655, 989 

licenses denied Republicans 583 

restrictions on use 71, 340, 679, 1025 

Auxiliary Corps 166, 622, 733 

ambushed 838 

civilian dress of 42 

disliked by old Constabulary 166 

duties of 592, 681 

forbid mark of respect for Irish dead. . .681-82 

help to burn Cork 838 

incite people 837, 838 

killings by 166. 813 

pay of 166, 592 

raids by.. 42, 49, 166, 592, 622, 681, 813, 1067-68 
recruited from ex-army officers 42, y^^ 

B 

Babies, black bread and no milk for 405-6 

searched 405 

Bachelor's Walk massacre 145, 207, 650 

Bagenal, Sir Henry 198 

Balbriggan 92/"/. 141, 164, 584 

Black-and-Tans in ioi/7, *37 

barracks in 95-96 

Burke, District Inspector, shot 97-98 

coming of Black-and-Tans to 9799, 101-102 

hosiery factory burned. .. .92, 161, 254, 623, 987 

no inquiry held 114 

population of 96 

sequel to 151 

shot up and sacked 92, 97-102, 824, 1058 

Balfour, Sir Arthur 151 

Ballagh, partially sacked by police 824 

Ballaghadereen sacked by police 824 

Ballina shot up by police 824 

Ballinagh, captured police released uninjured 794 

Ballinamore shot up by police 825 

Ballingeary 272, 276-77 

Ballitore, Quaker school 502 

Ballyeagan 76 

Ballyfinane 456 

Ballycastle 475 

Ballyhar 456 

Ballylooby 378, 390, 398 

Ballymacelligott, ambush falsely alleged 995 

creamery burned 995 

murders at 456 

Ballyporeen 397, 422 

Baltic ports, Irish trade with 967 

Ballyvourney, murders at 812 

Bandon 199. 270 

ambush at 256 

Banks, controlled by England 443 

cooperative 444-45. 448, 944, 959 

discriminate against Irish merchants 444 

drain deposits to England 957-58 

Irish Land 167, 619, 997 

organization and operation 959-60, 972; 997 

robbed by English soldiers 491-92, 493 

Bann River 466 

Banteer, cooperative creamery destroyed 993 

Bantry 125 

devastation in 126 

hunch-back murdered in 125 

partially sacked 823 

shot up 811-12, 824 

workhouse commandeered for barracks 126 

Barbour, Howard 959 

Sir David 489 

Barlow, John Henry 518, 519, 525 

report mi Irish conditions 519-23 

Barmaid kicked to death 248-49 

Barracks 129, 351 

attacks on 33, 36, 44, 63, 353, 373, 397 • 

618, 782, 794-95, 807, 906-7, 1042. 

an act of war 90, 256-57, 273, 595 

falsely alleged to justify murder 33, 931 

to get arms 90, 807, 907-8 









1071 



Barry Page 

burned 63, 353. 994, 1015, 1057 

captured 44, 650, 794-95, 807-8 

police released uninjured 793-96, 907 

bad living conditions in 592 

drinking and brawls in 65, 135, 400—1 

government bar keeps men sodden 416-17, 

426, 566, 670-71. 

established throughout Ireland 41 

evacuated 165 

fortified 11, 424, 908 

hospital commandeered for 41, 126 

houses commandeered. . .62, 66, 72, 78, 148, 1057 

in Balbriggan 95 

in Limerick City 63 

town hall commandeered for 39. 41 

Barry, Kevin, tortured and executed 789-90 

Barton, General Robert 132, 159, 430-31, 460 

Bayoneting of religious pictures r 10 

of Sinn Feiners ordered 396-98 

of old man threatened 693 

prisoners murdered by 105-107, 766, 769 

Beamish, Alderman 253, 641 

Bearhaven harbor 965 

Beating and flogging of American citizens... 790 
874-77. 879, 885, 886, 889-90. 

of children 507-9, 514-15 

of civilians 107-9, 455-50, 5'4. 653-59, 664, 

670, 706-7, 780-83, 811, S63, 987, 994, 
1062-63. 

indiscriminate 653, 775, 790-91 

of priests 368-69, 790, 801-2, 1058 

of prisoners 108, 779, 780-84, 1044, 1 04411 

of resigned policemen 149, 262, 417-18, 

1058, 1061-62. 
Beattie, Captain, loses life at Templemore . . . 36 

Belfast 79, 92, 138, 175-76. 274. 275, 429, 549 

alleged superiority 560-62, 940-4 1 

Bishop of 470 

boy soldiers 565-66 

burninng and looting in 562-63 

Chamber of Commerce 158 

city councillors interviewed 550 

cobblestones menace peace of 177, 571 

destruction of homes 562-63 

elections, Unionists lose hold 225, 550, 555 

Kngland continues money grants to 760 

housing conditions. ... 1 57, 440, 562-63, 565, 568 

ghetto restriction 568-69 

industries 156-58, 443, 553, 561, 94" 

compared with South Ireland 940-41 

favored by government 581 

infant mortality 561 

killings in 157, 175, 556 

labor, conditions of 440, 565 

difficult position of leaders 5 59-60 

expulsion of Nationalist workers. . 157, 174-75, 
176, 180, 555-57, 1050. 

expelled workers' committee 500, 1049 

administration of relief by 566-67, 560. 

571772- 
kept divided by manufacturers. See 
under Religious Issue, below. 

meeting prohibited 559-6o 

organization 157, 553-55 

social legislation for 952 

solvent for political and religious preju- 
dices 158, 435, 553-54, 555 

Vigilance committees 558 

wages, wretched. .. 157, 439, 440, 447, 553, 561 

linen mills 78, 254, 553, 556, 565, 941 

mill owners control government 552 

mob : . 177 

murder glossed over 1 79-80 

justification of 606 

Orange raids 556, 563 

parade for Ulster rebellion 144 

partisan administration of law and order . 179-80, 
563-64. 

political change, 550, 553; sermons 157 

prosperity 561 

Protestant population 176 

rates, low 561, 562 

religious issue, attitude of clergy .... 567-68, 569 



Black-and-Tans Page 

created by England 251-52, 476, 616, 

1031, 1034-35. 

dissolved by labor organization 158, 435, 

553-54, 555- 

by personal friendships 171 

176, 564. 

kept alive by manufacturers 79, 157-59, 

171, 178, 180-81, 254-55, 434-35, 440, 
557-58, 1034-35. 

mostly talk 433 

Protestants aid Catholic neighbors 171, 

176, 564- 
riots... 157, 175, 177, 180. 476, 520, 555-56, 1034 

school issue 433, 440-42 

facilities inadequate 551 

semi-literate population manipulated by 

politicians 550-52 

unschooled children furnish cheap labor. 552-53 

shipyards 443, 553, 556, 561, 941 

relative value of 941 

Sinn Fein, rapid growth of 172, 564-65, 

567, S45-46. 

soldiers contributed to war 175 

tuberculosis 561, 952-53 

unemployment 1029 

Unionist leaders spurn South of Ireland. . 560-62 

Belgium 209, 213, 751 

American Commission for Relief in 611 

atrocities in, exceeded in Ireland. . .ix, 209, 770- 
77, 785, 796, 822-23, 827. 

devastated areas resemble Ireland 18, 622 

fight of, continued by Ireland 851 

importation of cattle fodder from forbidden. 580 

Irish consul in 966 

Bell, Allan, killed 149, 622 

Bellew, Sir Henry Grattan, resignation of. 155, 905 

Bennett, Miss Louie 532, 610, 892 

conversion to Republicanism 1046-47 

secretary Women Workers' Union 1001 

testimony of 979-1015, 1019-1029, 1036-42, 

1044-52. 

Bentinck, Lord Henry 538 

Berkeley, Captain Fitzhodgings 538 

Berkshire regiment, flog prisoner 104411 

Berry, Rev. Canon J. Fleetwood 716 

Biggs, Mr., insincere apologist 77 

Bigger, Francis Joseph 433 

Birkenhead, Lord (F. E. Smith) 143, 144 

leader of Ulster rebellion 540-41, 1057 

Birr, glass industry "483 

Bishops' graves violated 701-2 

Black-and-Tans, agents of British trusts. .. .944-45 

aid Mallow firemen 618, 925-933 

ambush of 256, 838, 882 

animals wantonly shot 59-60, 456, 669 

arms carried by 42, 256 

bayonet prisoners to death 105-106 

beating and flogging of civilians 455, 507-8, 

509, 653-59, 664, 874, 664, 874-77, 879, 
885, 886, 889-90, 1062-63. 

flog resigned constables 417-18, 1061-62 

horsewhip and rob pedestrians 653-54, 775 

brought to Ireland 40, 166, 353 

Burke, District Inspector, killed 97, 98 

burnings by 105, 107, 109-112, 119, 127. 

136, 411-12, 456, 583-84, 587-88, 602-3 
606, 643, 647, 662-63, 669, 796, 815, 816, 
825-43, 878, 879-81, 1027, 1058, 1060. 

burn Cork 838 

creameries and factories 37, 64, 204, 

251, 300, 339, 406, 519, 585-86, 587, 623, 
673, 944-45- 

houses and shops 63, 77, 81, 85, 88, 

89, 103, 113, 371, 374, 383, 408-9, 521-22, 
603, 604, 605, 607, 618, 622, 657, 686, 
710-1 1, 816-18, 1058. 
prevent firemen extinguishing flames. .662-63. 
830-31, 838. 

character of 163, 249-50, 400-1, 402, 

414-15, 417, 427, 503, 5o8, 671, 695, 708 

close shops of Tralee 338-39 

criminals sent to Ireland as 250 

crops destroyed. ... no, 338-39, 456, 583-84, 602 



1072 



Blackpool Page 

curfew covers outrages by 80, 473, 597 

discipline, lack of . . .427, 597, 599, 671-72, 689 

drinking and drunkenness 65, 82, 97-99, 

135-36, 162, 400-1. 410, 587, 622, 670-71, 
675. 708, 77s, 778, 857, 859. 

drunken officers run amuck 700-1 

government bar in barracks. .. .416-17, 670-71 

duties of 4'. 163, 624, 673 

force papers to publish tin eats 788-89 

girls held up 381-82, 712-776, 8S7-88 

shot 403-4, 405, 669, 713 

incited to violence by Government. . .66, 385-86, 

591, 592, 596, 623-24, 1057. 
indiscriminate shooting and bombing . . . 1 13, 650, 
656, 668-69, 708, 778, 790-91. 815, 857, 
880. 

killing of 83-84, 97, 130-31. 161-62, 409, 

410-11, 412, 505. 

looting by 103, 50S-9, 511-12, 587, 670, 

675, 857-58, 934, 1058, 1067-68. 

like Hessians and yeomen 233 

maurading 455-56, 592, 675-76,934 

murders by 85, 105-6, 119-20, 130-5. 3°°> 

456, 503-4, 509-n, 668, 813, 814, 859-61, 
892, 1058, 1060. 

attempted 380-81, 382, 427, 602, 777~7 8 . 

1063. 

licensed to kill without discipline 385-86, 

427, 1057. 
threatened. See Threats. 

organization 591-92 

pay, high 387, 414, 418 

raids by. See Raids. 

Admiralty marines prevent 687 

extra pay and drinks for 418-19 

homes defenseless against 35 I_ 5 2 

recruited in England 35, 42, 163, 246, 402, 

418, 733- . . 

from ex-soldiers, adventurers, criminals. . 163, 
385, 414-15, 503. 

why possible 599 

relations with old Constabulary 129, 135-36, 

166, 381, 400-1, 402, 415. 689, 695, 7yj 

shoot Constables 262, 383, 401 

to spy on Constabulary 129 

robbery by 503-4, 508, 509, 511, 653, 664, 

675, 711-13. 775-76, 857-58, 877, 888, 
890, 934, 1067-68. 

run amuck 410, 700-1, 708 

searches and hold-ups, indiscriminate. .. .871-74, 
884-85, 887-88, 891. 

of mother with child 404—5 

soft-point bullets used by 673-74 

terrorism by. See Terrorism. 

uniform of 35, 42, 410, 586, 591-92 

unpunished for outrages 672, 689, 708, 814 

See also Police and Royal Irish Constabulary. 

Blackpool 629, 630, 636, 639, 644, 655 

Blacksod Bay 491 

advantage for American trade 963 

Blackwater, The 126, 929-30 

Blake, Edward, M. P 489 

Blarney Castle 875 

American priest assaulted 790 

Bloodless revolution 352-55 

Bodkin, Judge 624 

Bohemia 140 

Bohocoglin 376 

Bolshevik gold 1049 

scare unfounded 1 047 

Bolshevism, Sinn-Fein unlike 882 

See also Soviet and Russia. 

Bombs used to destroy houses 862, 915 

to murder 300, 650, 800-1 

to terrorize 633 

Boroughs, pocket 233-35 

Boston, massacre 256 

trade with Ireland 967, 968 

Bouladuff shot up 823 

Boyne, William III crossing the 550-51, 555 

Boy Scouts 1 62 

auxiliary to Republican army 649 

Countess Markievicz imprisoned for aiding. . 663 



British Page 

Murdered by Black-and-Tans 661-62, 663 

started by Lord Mayor MacCurtain 663 

Brabazen, Miss, shot 810 

Brannan, Austin, home burned 810 

Brehon laws 484-85, 945 

Brennan farm burned 583-84, 602 

Bristol, demonstration in 532 

British Admiralty, marines disperse raiders... 687 

semi-blockade of Irish ports by 968-71 

prohibits American passenger service to 

Cork 968-69 

Ambassador 5, 644H 

atrocities in Ireland, exceed German in Bel- 
gium ix, 209, 770-71, 785, 796, 822-23 

cloaked by control of cables and press. .784-85 

memoranda on 1053-59, 1059—60 

two years of 148, 542-43 

See also Atrocities. 
authority in Ireland, maintained by force. 166-67, 
520, 973, 1051. 

repudiated 44, 51, 86, 155, 244-45, 475, 

519, 724-25, 760, 1018-19, 1054. 

Board of Trade 483 

Cabinet 1056- 58 

Carson becomes member 145, 546 

cable censorship 686, 784 

Congested Districts Board 494-97, 1014 

duplicity of 1010 

Conservative Party, members support Ulster 

Rebellion 541 

Constitution 146 

courts. See Courts, British. 

Embassy 4. 5" 

Empire ix, 215 

relation of Ireland to 608-9, 95i. 1021 

safety from aggression 457, 609, 617 

guaranteed. . .251, 255-56, 617M, 1026, 1051 

treatment of nations within 250-51 

Financial Relations Commission 236-38, 

487-90, 491, 945-46. 

garrisons in Ireland 40, 544 

Government, agent of British trusts 944-45 

aware of outrages in Ireland 548-49, 624 

betrays pledge to Cork mayor and bishop. 2 17-18 

to Irish soldiers 758 

broken down in Ireland 548-49, 624 

Coalition, adopts CarSonism 544, 545-47 

Irish policy opposed by people 612-13 

press 615 

prevents harmony in Ireland 616 

wins khaki election 544-45 

councils sever allegiance to 155, 244-45, 

345, 724-25. 760, 1018, 1054. 

criticism tolerated 614 

deceives English people about Ireland. . . 90, 

53 2 , 586, 591, 597, 624, 793. 
denies compensation for damage by 

Crown forces. .. .64, 114, 586, 921-22, 925 
destroys Irish agricultural prosperity. .. 580-81, 
583-84, 590, 698, 936-37- 

execution of prisoners 467-69, 541-42, 

546, 614, 1053. 

extracting war costs from Ireland 946-47 

evasion of responsibility for atrocities.. 160, 
582, 623, 842, 987-88, 1057. 

discredited by broken promises 522-23 

holds up Irish railways 160, 582, 623 

Home Office 294, 297, 313-14. 

317, 319, 324-26. 

Home Rule policy unpopular 540 

ignores Cork's pleas for protection. .. .826-27 
indictments of coroners' juries.. 52, 61, 80, 
362-63, 660, 767 
incites troops to violence. .66, 385-86, 474, 591, 

592, 593. 596, 623-24, 1057. 
justifies reprisals by manufactured pre- 
tense 81, 512-13, 580, 586, 

623, 624, 766-67, 930 988. 

Ministry of Transportation 582 

murders concealed by falsehood. .. .33, 36, 61, 

160, 373-74, 593n, 624, 688-89, 767. 

768-69, 773, 813, 931, 1042, 1045, 1064-67. 

never accepted by Irish people. ... 185-86, 624 



1073 



British Page 

number of troops in Ireland concealed. 148, 898 

power and respect lost in Ireland 463-64, 

519-20, 523-24. 624, 661, 973. 
prevaricates about outrages by Crown 

forces 152-S4, 580, 585-86, 746, 74;, 

825-26, 829-30, 839, 841, 931, 994-96, 
1057. 

provides election beer for soldiers 643 

Unionists become critical of.... 554, 607, 912, 
950-51. 

reasons for Irish distrust of 465-67 

refuses impartial inquiry into burning of 

Cork 826, 839-41 

suppresses Strickland report on 841 

to suppress Ulster Rebellion .... 142-44, 205. 
541.. 543- 

violates international law 260-62, 486-87, 

766, 786, 808, 1059. 
White Paper convicts of Irish atrocities. . 542, 

543-44- 
withholds local government grants. .. 168, 586. 
724-25, 730-31, 1014. 

Minimum Wage Act from Ireland 447 

imperialism 558, 616 

crimes of 1021 

interference in Ulster 230-31, 251-52, 

476, 616, 621. 

justice, perversion of 154, 177, 180, 205-6, 

207, 472. 

Quaid .case 248-49 

Labor, Commission of Inquiry to Ireland. 18-19, 
114, 572, 59311, 746't/ 776, 784, 836-38. 

find Thurles worse than Flanders 18, 19 

report of 

cooperates with American Commission... 5 

law and order in Ireland 150-52, 165, 178, 

248-49, 250, 609, 624, 638, 987-89, 995. 

cost of 950-51 

navy 49 l . 97 1 

paper money prosperity 958-59, 971 

policy in Ireland 486-87 

a continuity 477-80, 619 

alienates Unionists 607, 912, 1039 

anarchy and terrorism 617-18 

campaign of. 1053-58 

anti-Irish propaganda. See English propa- 
■ ganda. 

assassinations and murders 151, 766 

of public officials 721-22, 736-40 

officially ordered. .380, 385-86, 467-69, 1057 

break down Irish morale 160, 585, 710-11 

denationalization 191—92, 221 

depopulation 65, 167, 450, 579, 585, 

619, 623, 936. 
destruction of agricultural prosperity .. 580-81, 

583-85. 
Irish industries. .. .230, 445-47, 449, 466-67, 

481-83, 486, 580-89, 617-18, 619, 623, 940, 

987-90, 991-92. 

British capitalists behind. .944-45, 989-90 

discrediting Britain before world 624 

"divide and conquer" 230-31, 616 

religious difficulty fostered 251-52, 476, 

616, 621, 1031, 1034-35. 

economic blockade 579-84 

exploitation 457-58, 486, 500-1 

extirpation of Irish race. .. .477-80, 486, 499, 

1009. 
false evidence manufactured 306-8, 336, 

586, 623, 624, 676, 690-91, 744, 931. 

f rightfulness 1056-58 

indictment of 486, 623 

provocation of open rebellion. ... 135, 140, 151, 

233, 260, 382-83, 396, 702-3. 
stamp out self-government. . . .40, 42, 164-65, 

168, 353-54, 357, 606, 726-27, 1001, 1051, 

1053- 

starvation 254, 337 

Ulster issue insincere excuse 616 

propaganda. See English Propaganda. 

Red Cross 575 

a military organization 610-11 



Burnings p age 

rule in Ireland yj, 148, 150-52, 166-67 

524, 624, 847, 898. 

sanctions murders 151, 380, 385-86, 467-69 

secret service 117, 245-50, 257-60, 331-32, 

. 354, 357, 592, 594, 597, 623, 624, 780, 860. 

sink ship bearing arms 216 

troops, moved to Ireland 548-49 

trained in Ireland 148, 544 

Women's International League. See Wo- 
men's International League, British 

Brixton prison 29, 79, 330, 1038 

death of Lord Mayor MacSwiney in... 263 265 
279, 2S9, 311-12. 

Uroderick, John, attempted murder of 411, 854 

home burned 4I1> 4I3) g 54 

parents ordered to stay in burning 411-12 

.rodenck, Daniel J., testimony of 664-83 

Brodenck, Miss, assaulted 855 

Bromyard ' ,:, , 

i>-„. — — i._j .' ' 



ISrosna sacked. 



675 



captured police released uninjured 794 

Brosnan, Peggy, wantonly shot 669 810 

Bryce, Ambassador James 77 80 V72 

Bryce, Mrs. Annan '. 89 132 

imprisoned 77 'i rg 

Buckley, Batt, affidavit '.'768-69 

Buckley brothers, shot while prisoners... . 8o« 
688-89, 767, 811. y ' 

Buckmaster, Lord s ,g 

Bullets, dum-dum, fired at Miss MacSwiney!! 80 

soft-point, supplied to Crown forces. . 671-74 

used to murder O'Connell .766 

violation of international law 766 

Buncrana, town hall seized " ' g 8^ 

Burke, Edmund .!!!!!! 502 

Burnings: 

Cork • • • • • • - 6 43, 647, 662-63, 825-43, 878, 

879-81, 1058. 
firemen prevented from extinguishing. .662-63 
8 3o-3i, 838. 

creameries 37 , 64, 152-54, 204, 251, 339, 

387, 406, 519, 584-86, 618, 623, 673, 680 
824, 913-14, 987, 988-89, 991-92, 993, 
994-96, 1015, 1058, 1060. 

inhumane consequences 590-91 

suffering of farmers from. . . .64, 339 590-91 
927, 944-45- 

truth about, suppressed 152-54 585-86 

994-96. 

factories 92, 587, 618, 913-14, 915. 

908-159, 1060. 

farms ... 371-72, 522, 583-84, 714-15, 1058 

hay ricks burned no, 338-39, 371 374 

383, 456, 520, 580-1, 583-84, 602, 623! 
7i4-i$. 

h ouses 88, 89, 107, 109-n, 119, 126, 136, 

37i, 374, 383, 411-12, 456, 584, 602, 603, 

604, 605, 607, 618, 643, 647, 669, 773 
810-11, 815, 823-25, 854, 861-62, 883! 
898, 911-12, 923, 1015, 1057, 1058, 1059 

victims left in 107-9, 411-12, 609 

women and children driven from 137, 

370-71, 564, 571-72, 583-84, 600, 602! 

605, 606, 669-70, 749, 810-11. 
indiscriminate 63-64, 520, 580, 603, 622, 

804-5, 815, 832-34, 912. 

njgh. 1 or 105, 370, 912 

officially ordered 66, 804-5, 916-17, 1058-59 

Protestant property destroyed. .. .37, 77-78, 126, 

580, 607, 832-34, 912, 915. 

purpose of m-12, 374, 842, 915-16 

shops, stores, and offices 77, 88, 107, no, 

370, 408, 520, 563, 587-88, 603, 604, 606,' 

643, 647, 662-63, 666, 773, 812, 823-25, 

825-26, 828-29, 837-38, 911-12, 923-24. 

throughout Ireland 698, 715, 898 

town and city halls 35-36, 127, 408, 603, 

605, 618, 666, 815, 819-22, 910-n, 1015. 
towns and cities 478, 520-22, 524, 570, 

812-13, 822-25, 910-14, 1027, 1057, 1058. 

violation of rules of war 261, 1059 

See also Destruction of Property and Re- 
prisals. 



1074 



Burns Pa§ e 

Burns, John 4°7 

Business, effect of terrorism on.... 38, 116, 655-56 

premises looted and destroyed 39. 4°. 77, 

85, 88, 100, 107, no, 113, H4i 177, 
367-68, 370, 408, 520, 563, 587-88, 589, 
686, 722-23, 773, 812-13, 815, 823-24, 
825-26, 858-59, 862, 884, 885-86, 911-12. 
923-24, 928, 1068. 
Butt, Sir Isaac, constitutional movement of... 188 

Butterfield, Lord Mayor 276 

Buttevant, shooting of Patrick Nunan at. . . . 77i~73 

soldiers from burn Mallow 618, 908-14 

Byrne, Inspector General, removed 1056 



Cables, British control of suppresses news. . 784-86 
Caddan, John Joseph, ex-Constable: 

testimony of 407-420 

Cadets. See Auxiliary Corps. 

Calbally shot up by police 824 

Caltra partially sacked 824 

Cambridge 271 

( lameron Highlanders disarmed 777 

insult American woman 691-92 

looting by 778 

murder prisoner 89, 688-89, 768-69 

raids by 691, 703, 705, 777, 778 

terrorism by 693 

Camlough burned 899 

Campaign of passive resistance 44. 87, 

352-55, 358. 

gives way to force under aggression 353~5° 

Canada 139. 184, 540, 609 

Canadian citizen 7 l 

law l8 4 

prison 3 2 9 

towns • • '58 

Capitalists, oppose united Ireland .. 436-37, 562, 944 

Cappoquin I2 6 

Capuchin Friars raided and arrested 1037-38 

Carewe 337 

Carrick, Earl of 445 

Carrick-on-Shannon partially sacked by police. 824 

Carrigaholt, Gaelic college . 1032 

Carrigrohane, captured military released unin- 
jured 794 

Carrigtwohill, captured police released unin- 
jured 794 

farm and animals burned 714 

Carriheen 12 ° 

Carroll, Professor, raided 592 

Carson, Sir Edward 78, 143, 211, 364, 1034 

economic interests 559. 99o 

elevates religious differences 158, 436, 574 

fears labor control 555, 574 

"Grammar of Anarchy" 205, 229 

imports guns from Germany 144, 206-7, 

607, 648, 651. 

King prohibits arrest 1 44 

leads Ulster rebellion 144. 204-5, 207. 540 

member British Cabinet U5. 54° 

opposes proportional representation 225 

policy, adopted by British Government ... 544-47 

cost of 594 

greatly modified 545, 549 

prevents capital levy 555, 574, !°49 

shifts position on Home Rule. .545, 549, 554, 574 

Solemn League and Covenant 205, 559 

starts Ulster Volunteers 205, 1057 

supported by English Tories 143, 205, 

540-41, 545-. 

threatens unions with Germany 204, 214 

treason against the Crown 145 

Carsonism, becomes Government policy .... 544-45, 
546-47. , 

stronghold of capitalism 555, 5°! 

trades unions threaten hold of 554-55 

Carsonites 242 

hold Coalition Government together 601 

Casement, Sir Roger 140. 211, 213, 617 

Castleeiny, creamery destroyed.. 824 

Castlerea, houses wrecked by police 824 

CasUereagh, Lord 229, 235 



Civilians Page 

Castleisland 390 

Casualties of war 595, 621-22, 805-7, 

1042, 1055, 1060. See also Police, 
shooting of. 

Catholic bishops 159 

Church, maltreated by Crown forces. ... 1036-39 

disabilities 228-29, 939 

domination 433, 606-7 

emancipation 188, 191, 230-31 

school issue in Ulster 433, 440-42 

traders 159 

workers, expulsion of 157, 1 74 — 75. ! 7&, 

180, 556-57, 1049-50. 
Catholics and Protestants fight against Eng- 
land 175 

admitted to Parliament 188 

to schools 191 

English prejudice against 613 

franchise restricted 228-29, 234 

Gaelic League unites with Protestants. ... 1030, 
1031-32. 

in Belfast 171 

in Royal Irish Constabulary 142, 175 

refuse to persecute. 252-54 

Cattle, displace human beings 936 

driving 469, 472, 588, 1006, 1009, 1011 

marketing of 936-37. 989 

raising, impoverishes Ireland 936-37 

promoted by absentee landlords 937~38 

by England 938 

Cavan, County 179 

Cecil, Lord Robert 839 

Celtic Literary Society 201 

cemeteries, terrorized people flee to. .692, 710, 917 

Central Empires 214 

Charlemont, Earl of 230-31, 251 

Chicago, crime in, compared 461 

Daily News 428, 429 

living conditions compared 45 2 -53 

Tribune 5°5 

Childers Commission 237, 487-90 

Childers, Erskine, Lieut-Commander 77, 159, 

163, 237. 

Childers, Hugh C. E 237, 489 

Children, arrested 744 

beaten and flogged 507-9. 5 : 4-i5. 645 

child labor 455 

exploited 458 

laws lax 455, 458 

scandalous wages 553 

unschooled children become cheap 

labor 552-53 

compelled to witness destruction of home... no 

deprived of milk 3 00 

held up 644 

shot by Crown forces 403-4. 405, 456, 503, 

661-62, 669, 700-1, 810, 813, 1040, 1060. 

suffering 338 

terrorized 14, 19, 38-39, 638, 810, 865, 868, 

883, 902, 917-18, 1040, 1041. 

unclad, driven from home 104, 810 

(See Women and Children.) 

Chisholm, Dr. Catherine 549, 620 

Christian Brothers' schools. . .8, 195, 280, 396, 699 

shelter terrorized women and children 692 

Christianity 287 

Church of England 191, 640 

of Ireland 186, 194, 251, 640, 1031, 1032 

disestablished 193 

Gaelicizing influences 1033-34 

Churches raided 701-2 

Citizens' Army, Irish 212, 216, 649, 

Civil liberties in England and America 614 

suppressed 47-48, 116, 388, 398, 401-2, 424 

Civilians, assaults on unarmed 107-9, 368-69, 

455. 503, 507-8, 509. 653-54, 664, 670, 
706-7, 775, 790, 810-11, 874-77, 879, 885, 
886, 889-90, 987, 994, 1054-55, 1058, 1060, 
1062-63. 

atrocities upon 604, 706-7, 778-79, 780-84, 

874-77, 1058. See also Beating and 
Flogging, Murder, Torture, etc. 



1075 



Clancy Page 

burning of property violates rules of war.. 261, 
1059. 

horsewhipped 653-54, 775 

shooting violates rules of war 262, 1059 

Sinn Feiners ordered bayonetted 396-98 

ordered summarily shot 380, 385-86, 1057 

unarmed for self-defense 374, 706-7, 711, 

810-11, 865-66, 93J, 934. 

Clancy, Patrick, murder of 766, 81 1 

Clancy, Peter, murder of 1064-65 

Clare, County 58, 248, 366, 377, 579, 693 

coroners' inquests suppressed 769-70 

destruction in 715 

fairs and markets suppressed 388 

buy ricks burned 580, 590 

suppressions unwarranted in 388-89 

Claremorriss, captured police released unin- 
jured 795 

Clark, Roger 518, 525 

report of on Irish conditions 519, 523-24 

Clarke, John Charles, testimony 699-715 

Clarke, Thomas 241 

executed 468 

Clayton, Divisional Inspector, indicted for 

murder 363 

Cleary, Michael, shot 51-52 

Cleeves, Sir Thomas 903, 916 

creamery of, destroyed 64 

milk condensery burned 618, 913-16 

respected by employes 915-16 

Clerkenwell prison, blown up 238 

Clogheen 378, 379, 380, 382, 383, 389, 

390, 421-22, 427. 

girl assaulted 810 

religious services invaded 1038 

Clonan, Councillor, arrested 597 

Clonmel 390, 391, 421 

Cloture bill 1 89 

Cloyne, captured police released uninjured.., 794, 

807. 
Clune, Connor , murder cloaked by falsehood. . 1045 

E. Lysaght's statement of 1064-67 

Coal, English competition with crushed. . .467, 990 

Irish 215, 446-47 

anthracite 990-91 

estimated tonnage 446 

Industrial Commission inquiry into... 980, 982 

mines undeveloped 170, 446-47, 958 

peat 467, 961, 980 

quality 170, 447 

Coalition Government, adopts Carsonism 544, 

545. 546-47- 

Irish policy opposed by people 612-13 

Press 615 

prevents harmony in Ireland 616 

wins Khaki election 544-45 

Cochran home burned 109-110 

Cohalan, Canon 779 

Coercion Act 68, 251, 764, 1044 

Coleman, James, murdered. .618, 662, 813-14, 892 

Collins, Michael 430-31, 780, 1065, 1067 

Commandeering of houses 39, 41, 62, 66, 

72, 78, 126, 148, 982, 1057. 

Commanding officer incites to violence 66, 

385-86, 591, 592, 593, 596, 623-24, 1057. 
Commission on Conditions in Ireland. See 

American Commission. 
Committee of One Hundred Fifty on Condi- 
tions in Ireland iii-vi, 3 

Compensation denied for destruction by Crown 

forces 64, 114, 586, 591, 597, 624, 793 

Condon, W. J., life sought by Black-and- 

Tans 380, 381, 382, 385 

Congested Districts Board, duplicity of 1010 

established 494 

fails to distribute land 494-97, 101-4 

Connacht Tribune • 715-16 

Connaught, Province 167, 466, 494 

depopulation of 1010 

land trouble in 1005, 1009, 1010 

Connolly, James 157, 216, 649, 1001 

Connolly, execution of 468, 1047 

Connolly, John, murdered 813 



Cork Page 

Connolly, Martin, petrol confiscated from.... no 
Connolly, Mrs., killed by terrorism and ex- 
posure 9 1 7 

Connolly, public house looted and burned. . 113-14 

Connor, John, wantonly shot 1063 

Conscientious objectors 614-15 

Conscription '43. 544. 759 

German plot invented to justify 143 

opposition to 614 

Protestants join with Catholics in 1033 

Considine, shop looted and burned 367, 370 

Constabulary. See Royal Irish Constabulary. 

Constituent Assembly 1026, 1049 

Contemporary Ireland, excerpt from 1042-44 

Continental Congress ....... 169 

Contrast between Polish heroes and Irish 

criminals '4<> 

Convents, raided and terrorized 72, 1037, 1058 

shelter terrorized women • • 9 1 7 

Cookstown, captured police released unin- 
jured 794 

Cooperation, development of 115. i53> 99>, 994 

997. J03i, 1050. 

without independence worthless 485-86 

Cooperative banks 444~45, 44$, 944. 959-6o 

commonwealth 163, 484-85, 944-45 

creameries 46i, 994 

built from farmers' savings 944 

burned 37-38, 152-54. 204, 339, 519. 

584-86, 987, 988-89, 991-92. 

loss entailed 64, 339, 590-91. 921-22, 

923-24, 944-45. 991-94. 996. 

number of 339, 944, 99i~92, 994 

redress demanded 1 53. 996 

redress denied • • ■ -586, 995 

truth about, prevaricated by Govern- 
ment 1 52-54, 585-86, 994-96 

employes beaten or killed 456, 586, 994 

looted 992, 994, 1045 

started by Sir Horace Plunkett 204, 5»4 

wrecked .......387. 992 

See also Creameries, Destruction of. 

development of land 494, 960 

Employes' Union 57 s 

Guild •••■ 550 

industries 448, 585. 972, 973. 

986, 990, 994, 1065. 

destroyed by Crown forces 993, 994. 

1045, 1064, 1067-68. 

suppressed by British 984-89, 99<>, 994 

movement 46l ~ 6 o'<: 4 5 ' 5 5 

British Government opposes 586, 944-45. 

059, 987-88, 990, 991. 

growth of • • • , - -ML 994. 997 

societies 448, 461-62, 48s, 562. 

944, 978, 994-. 

among deep-sea fishermen 9/ ~ 

battling with English trusts 944-45, 99£ 

taxes on 95 

wholesale society s« ' 

Coote, Sir Algernon . '£5 

Copenhagen, Irish trade with 9°/ 

Corbett, Canon, of Mallow........ Jj™ 

secures pledge of protection for town. .. .908-9 

asks reason for violation • • ■ • 9'" 

C nr \r J 99, 249 

ambushes'.'.".'..' 605. 806, 828, 838 

American sailors in 652-53, 854-889 

beating and flogging of citizens 653 54. 

775, 790-91. Q 

Black Thorn Shop destroyed 81, 420, S25 

bombs used to kill citizens 650, 800-1 

British break pledge to mayor and bishop. 2 17-18 
Government, ignores city's pleas for pro- 
tection o y a 2J 

refuses impartial inquiry 826, 839 4 1 

suppresses Strickland report 841 

judges ostracized 245-46 

burning of 643, 647, 662-3, 796, 815. 

816, 825-43, 878, 879-81, 1027, 1058. 
British Labor investigation convicts 

Crown forces 836-38 



1076 



Cork Page 

firemen prevented from extinguishing 

flames 662-63, 830-31, 838 

guilt of Crown forces falsely denied 841 

losses, financial 831, 832-35 

people made homeless by 835-36, .840 

"private" military inquiry into 840-41 

problems created by 843 

reason for 842 

worse than Louvain 796 

captured military released uninjured 794~95 

Chamber of Commerce 203, 814 

demands impartial investigation 839-40 

plea for city's protection ignored 826-27 

representative debarred from military in- 
quiry 84 1 

City Hall: 

attacks on 618, 815, 819-21 

destruction of 605, 816, 819-22, 

826, 829-30, 838, 878. 

raided and looted 736. 754. 79'. 982 

usefulness to people of Cork. .831-32, 833, 981 

continuous shootings and murders 651 

corporation, character of men on 799 

declares allegiance to Dail Eireann...... 345 

repudiates suggestion citizens burned city. 839 

County 198 

British outrages in 811-13 

curfew ....80, 122, 420, 604, 622, 664, 828, 871 

destruction (apart from burning) 715, 

722-23, 812-13, 825. 

Easter uprising in 216-17, 218 

Employers' Federation demands impartial in- 
quiry 840 

fairs and markets suppressed 388 

harbor 619, 965 

American freight service to 168, 204, 

966-67, 968-69. 
Britain prohibits American passenger ser- 
vice to 168, 619-20, 968-69 

Commissioners 719, 964, 965, 970 

demand investigation of city's destruc- 
tion 840 

hold-ups 871-74, 884-85, 887-88 

housing shortage 843-44 

indiscriminate shooting 522, 605, 654, 

790-91, 815, 824, 889. 
Industrial Development Association ... .207, 618, 
619-20, 814. 

inquests suppressed 769-70 

jail 219, 268 

Jews 251, 640, 742 

Library, burning of 829-30, 838 

usefulness to city 831-32, 833 

looting and robbery 81, 654, 712-13, 722-23, 

74i, 747-48, 749, 752-53, 754-55, 775~76, 
813, 823, 877. 
Lord Mayor and councillors pursued by 

British 278-79, 282-83, 303-4, 

720-21, 734-36. 

attempted murder of 736-38, 740-42 

imprisonment of. See MacSwiney, Lord 

Mayor Terence. 
murder of. See MacCurtain, Lord Mayor 
Thomas. 

Martyrs' Plot 329-30, 801 

murders 280-81, 341-42, 359-65, 595, 654, 

713, 721-22, 797, 800-1, 813, 815. 

continuous 651 

National Monument shot up 889, 892 

newspapers 640, 641, 737, 837 

forced to insert threats 659, 788-89 

raided 81 

suppressed 787 

poverty 256 

Protestant bishop 640 

mayor elected 253 

raids 81, 122-23, 124, 361, 522, 604-5, 

630-32, 636, 644, 656-57, 740, 742, 747- 



Courts Page 

48, 751-53, 754-55, 756-57, 79i, 812-13, 
815, 823. 

nightly ., 124, 651, 722-23 

Relief Committee 843 

religious difficulties unknown 251-52, 640 

Republicans 95 per cent, of population 736 

reprisals.: 81, 605, 618, 828,883 

School of Art 981 

suffering of people.... 591, 647, 715 

summary of outrages in 811-13, 814-16 

Sunday's Well, deaf man killed at 713 

terrorism in.... 72, 80, 81, 122, 420, 522, 604-5, 
653-56, 662-63, 749, 752-53, 773-74. 77(>> 
790-91, 821, 828, 8S3. 

effect on business and industry 655-56 

unemployment 656, 842, 1029 

University of 444, 454, 459 

University College 719, 722, 799, 813 

Vigilance Committee 652-53 

Volunteers 211, 641 

Hall 269, 345 

women, raided.. 741, 748-49, 778, 810-11, 817-18 

searched 712 

terrorized 742, 748-49, 752-53, 756-57, 

810-11, 813, 814, 816-18, 822. 

Coroners' inquests suppressed 50, 69, 80, 168, 

409, 622, 763, 769-70, 861, 1057. 

gives immunity for outrages 770, 1057 

last legal inquest 763 

supplanted by military inquiries. 50, 69, 80, 763 

murderers to judge themselves 770 

juries, impaneled by accused police... 33, 363-64, 
764-66. 
indict military and police for murder. . .31-33, 

61, 79-S0, 766. 
indict officials of British Government... 80 
verdicts ignored by British Government.. 52, 
61, 767-68. 

Costello, Df. Thomas B 1 062 

Cotter, Rev. Dr. James H., testimony of.... 75-91 

Council of Action, fails to act 320, 321 

stops support of Polish war 615 

Councils. See County Councils, Urban Coun- 
cils, Local Government. 
Coughlan, Alderman, attempt to murder. . .740-42 

Coughlan, Mrs. Eamon, affidavit of 741 

County Councils 156H, 734« 

character of men on 799 

declare allegiance to Dail Eireann. .. 155, 168, 
244-45, 345. 724-25. 760. 

elections won by Sinn Fein 154-156, 475, 

724. 1014. 

England seeks to paralyze 168, 726-27, 

730-31, 979- 
grants withdrawn, 168, 586, 724-25, 1014; 

from Rpublican counties only 760 

members arrested and imprisoned. .. .356, 720-21 

organization and duties 723-24 

Unionist 760 

Courtney, Lady 538 

Courtney, Sean, affidavit 752-53, 754-55 

home raided and robbed 75 I_ 53 

tortured 752-53 

Courts, British, closed 26, 246-47, 678 

failure of 26, 27, 762-63, 1008, 1055 

military enforce decrees 764—973 

pervert justice 154, 177, 180, 205-6, 207, 

248-49, 1044, 1053. 

repudiated by Irish 51, 245-46, 330, 697, 

755, 761, 999- 

resignation of magistrates from 51, 246 

superseded by courts-martial 154, 330, 469, 

542, 622, 763, 1044, 1060. 

Republican 353, 761—62 

arbitration 26-27, 37, 44, 2 45> 73 2 , 761, 

998, ion. 
authority derived from consent of people. 74, 
173, 247, 621, 973, 977, 999, ion. 






1077 



Cove Page 

British endeavor to suppress 250-51, 356, 

621, 697, 732, 761-62, 979, 1001, 1012-13. 

police send men to 167 

courts supplanted by 245-47, 607, 762-63, 

972, 1055. 

civil justice 167, 761, 764, 972 

cover all but four counties 761-62 

criminal justice 522, 732, 972, 976 

decrease of litigation 763-64 

decrees respected 37, 173, 247, 697, 698, 

973, 977, 999, 1012, 1013. 

efficiency of 173, 522, 607, 677-78, 709, 

761, 999, 1008, 1011. 
Greenwood, Sir Hamar, admits existence.. 154 

High Court 761-62, 1012 

impartiality 522. 761, 1011 

industrial conciliation hoard-- 972, 1000-1 

Judges liable to arrest 732-761 

elected and appointed 999, 101 1 

judgments prove Irish fit for self-govern- 
ment 330, 356, 522 

justice obtainable only in 607, 1013-14 

Land Courts. . .961, 974, 1005-8, 1011-12, 1013 

only judicial body in towns 37, 678 

organization 760-61, 998-99, 1011-12 

penalties imposed by... 46, 604, 607, 709, 1007 

Solomon's judgment in 330, 886 

used by British insurance company 607. 

973, 999- 

used by Unionists 155, 247, 251, 909 

Cove, attempted murder of Republican police. . 793 

named 240 

sacked 72, 695-96, 778 

Urban council 777 

See Queenstown. 

Covenanters, Ulster 205 

"Cowardly murders of police" 90, 256 

"Cow lots" cause emigration and cheap labor. 448-49 

Coyle, Albert, x; attest of transcript xi 

Official Reporter to Commission viii 

Craven, Miss Nellie, brother brutally flogged. 507-8, 
5I4-I5- 

cousin murdered 509-13, 859-60 

house raided and looted 508-9 

testimony of 506-16, 60311 

Creameries destroyed by Crown forces 37, 

64, 153, 204, 251, 387, 406, 519, 5S4-86. 
623, 673, 680, 824, 913-14, 944. 987, 
99 I_ 93, 994-96, 1015, 1058, 1060. 

alleged justification 65, 89, 387, 586 

critical suffering caused by 338-39, 406, 

585, 590. 

employes beaten or killed 456, 586, 994 

Government refuses compensation. .. 586, 921-22, 
995- 

threatens destruction 988 

impartial inquiry demanded 153, 996 

threatens 998 

inhumane consequences 590-91 

loss inflicted on farmers 64, 339, 590-91, 

927, 944-45- 

Mallow milk condensery 590-91, 618, 

913-16, 918, 987. 

number of 585, 590, 600, 944 

purpose to ruin Irish industry 585, 623, 944 

truth prevaricated by Government 152-154 

585-86, 624, 994-96. 
See also Cooperative Creameries. 

Creed, John, affidavit of 775-76 

Crime, absence of in Ireland 9, 247, 248, 250, 

357-58, 378-79, 422-23, 460-61, 637-38, 

°°4- 
created by Crown police 151, 609, 624, 638, 

661-62. 
suppressed by Republican police 45, 46, 

128, 172-73, 378, 475. 524. 651, 685, 

694-95, 697, 708-9, 793, 881, 886, 973, 

977, 1006-7. 
Criminals, captured by Republican police 45, 

172-73, 378, 651, 695-97, 793- 

England treats prisoners as 260-62, 786-87 

sent as spies and Black-and-Tans. ... 163, 249-50, 

414-15, 503- 
Croke Park massacre 300, 593H, 863-67 



Cumann na m'Ban Page 

Cromwell, Oliver, 198, 1009; conditions worst 

since 847 

Crowley, Daniel Francis, Ex-Constable. .. .422, 427 

leaves Ireland to protect life 389 

resigns from Constabulary 385 

testimony of 376-89 

Crowley, Mrs., shot 654 

Crown forces, bad living conditions of 592 

beat and flog American citizens 790, 874-77, 

879, 885, 886, 889-90. 

civilians 107-9, 455, 503, 507-8, 514-15, 

653-54, 670, 706-7, 775, 790, 987, 994, 
1054-55, 1058, 1060, 1062-63. 

priests 368-69, 796, 800, 801-2, 1058 

burnings bv. See Burnings. 

cost of 59', 897-98, 950 

crops destroyed no, 338-39, 37', 374, 383. 

456, 520, 522, 580, 583-84, 590, 603, 
714-15, 1058. 

discipline broken down 153, 624 

lack of 427, 597, 599, 671-73, 689, 914, 

1058. 

drinking and drunkenness 65, 82, 83, 87, 

97-99, 100, 135-36, 162, 165, 367-68, 369, 
399, 400-1, 410, 418-19, 566, 587, 622, 670, 
675, 686, 687, 700-1, 708, 778, 703, 812, 
814, 822, 853, 857, 859, 892, 910, 914, 
933, I0 4°, 1041-42, 1068. 

Government bar in barracks 416, 426, 

566, 670-71. 

firemen, aided 838, 914, 925, 933 

fired upon 662-63, 830-31, 854, 911, 913 

forced position of 170, 565-66, 593, 596, 

597, 598, 623-24, 1057. 

friendly relations with people 129, 171, 622, 

933, 1023-24. 

hold-ups and robbery 59, 70-7 1 , 381-82, 

492-93, 503-4, 508, 509, 5ii, 513-M, 623, 
653, 664, 666, 675. 679, 681, 682, 713-14, 
741, 744-46, 749, 752-53, 754-55, 756. 
775-76, 812, 857-58, 871-74, 877, 884-85. 
887-88, 890, 934, 987, 1067-68. 

incited to violence by Government 66, 

385-86, 591, 592, 593, 596, 623-24 1057, 
looting. . ..39, 40, 81, 100, 114, 177, 233, 367-68, 
503, 5ii, 514, 563, 587, 623, 666, 667, 
670, 675, 722-23, 744-46, 747-48, 749, 
753, 754, 756, 773, 778, 779. 812, 813, 838, 
842, 858-59, 910, 923-24, 933, 934, 994- 
1067-68. 

mentality 59 1 

murders by. See Murders. 

number of 142, 148, 591, 594, 898, 935, 973, 

1057- - 

organization 59 ' 9 2 > °t- 

outrages by, memoranda on. ... 1053-59, 1059-60 

raids. See Raids. 

shooting and killing of 141, 147. 251, 355-57- 

366-67, 408, 521, 592, 618, 666, 778, 805, 

852, 881-82, 907, 996, 1022, 1027, 1045, 

1053-58. 
See also Police, Killing of. 
terrorism by. See Terrorism. 
removal of necessary for peace 5 2 4, 525, 

539-40, 593, 607, 609, 624, 1026, 1047, 

unpunished for outrages. . .659-60, 672, 689, 708, 

814, 922. 
See also Auxiliary Corps, Black-and-Tans. 
Marines, Military, Police, Royal Irish 
Constabulary 

Crown solicitor 61, 298, 364 

Crozier, General, resignation of 599" 

Cruelty drives woman insane °8 

to prisoners. See Prisoners. 
Cruise, District Inspector, 171, 411; promoted 

after reprisals 4 J 3 

Cuba .....255 

Culture, Irish 333, 477, 5oo, 851, 1043 

Cumann na m'Ban 631, 811 

aids Republican Government 642 

meaning °47 

organized 207-8, 211-12 

nnrnncp __ 211, O2o 



1078 



Cumann na n'Eaglaise Page 

relief work 645-47 

supports Volunteers 212-628, 645 

suppressed 474 

women assaulted by military 855 

Cumann na n'Eaglaise 1033-34 

Cummins, Joe, shot. . 854 

Curfew law 72, 80, 419, 420 

child shot after change in 403-4, 405 

cloaks outrages by Crown forces 80, 473, 

597, 622-23, 664, 815, 828, 838. 

in Cork 80, 122, 420, 604, 622, 664, 828, 871 

in Galway 418-603 

in Limerick 83, 597 

Curragh Camp, 544; officers refuse to suppress 

Ulster rebellion 145, 205, 543 

Currie, Bertram \V 489 

Curry, captured police released 795 

Curzon, Lord 153 

Cuskinny, American woman insulted at 691-92 

Czecho-Slovakia 140, 146, 166, 609 

language saved 1042-43 

D 

Dail Eireann 485, 549, 972 

averts land riots 1005-6 

constructive legislation 475, 484-85, 524, 

584, 971-72, 973, 980-81, 1051. 

councils declare allegiance to 44, 51, 155, 

168, 244-45, 345. 475, 724-25, 760, 1018-19 

no repudiations of allegiance 760 

decrees... 974-78, 1005-6, 1036 

conserving Irish resources 975-76, 977-78 

establishing a Civil Service 975 

establishing a Commission of Industrial 

Inquiry 167, 975-76 

establishing an Economic Council 977-78 

establishing a Land Commission 978 

observed by people 973 

restricting emigration 868-69, 974-75 

restricting increase of rent 976-77 

restricting land litigation 974, 1005-6 

established 241-42, 474"75, 545. 548, 1054, 

1055- 

labor representation in 1049 

Land Bank created 960 

Local Government Department .... 101 6, 1018-19 

members 431, 460, 462 

imprisoned and executed. ... i6wi, 356, 483-84, 
621, 721-22, 1000, 1055. 

official reports of 504 

open meetings 241-42, 243-44. 449. 484. 524 

prevented from developing industries 589 

proscribed by Britain 169, 243-44, 3 53. 621, 

975-76, 979, 1 05 1, 1054. 
relation to Empire determinable only by... 608 

supported by people 29-30, 59, 169, 475, 

519-20, 621, 624, 973, 999. 
See also Irish Parliament. 

Daily Herald, London 249-50, 533-34 

Dairies 115, 167 

inquiry on milk production 167, 982, 983 

Danagher, automobile confiscated 680 

Darcy, Constable 701 

Dartmoor prison 784 

Davies, District Inspector 694 

Davies, W. M., Deputy Inspector General re- 
signs 1056 

Davis, Thomas 186 

poems of 200, 253 

Deasey, General 394 

orders invasion of religious services 395 

orders Sinn Feiners bayoneted 396-98 

"Death or Victory League," threats by... 789, 791 

de Broke, Lord Willoughby 143 

Defense of the Realm Act 747, 770 

Delehanty, Father 504 

Delehunty, Rev. P. H., imprisoned 1036-37 

Dempsey, Frank, Chairman Mallow Urban 

Council 893 

correspondence seized 900-1 

repeated raids on home 899, 902 

testimony of 893-935 

Denikin, aided by American Red Cross 611 



Devastation Page 

Denmark 169, 174 

cost of government less than Ireland's 

taxes 501 

Irish consul in 966 

Irish trade with Copenhagen 967 

like Ireland economically 163 

I >erry. See Londonderry. 

I )errygallon, murder of O'Connell and Clancy 

at 766 

Deportation of elected public officials 20-22, 

289, 310, 471-721. 

of Sinn Fein suspects 143, 269, 270-71, 

275, 542, 543, 631, 1053, 1054, 1055. 

wholesale 27, 29, 143, 212, 721, 1053, 1060 

Derham, James, arrested 93 

Derham, John, town councillor of Balbriggan, 

shop looted and burned 103 

testimony 92-120 

torn from family 1 02-3 

Derham, John, of -Skerries, home raided and 

burned 119 

Derham, Michael, brutally beaten '07-9 

de Roiste, Liam 619 

Desart, Countess of 445, 447, 1036 

Destitution, Red Cross not relieving 575-76, 

611-12. 

from burning and looting 111-12, 515-16, 

570-72, 603, 918-19, 928. 
from unemployment. .. .589-90, 610, 656, 842-43, 
918. 

relief of 112, 453, 550, 566-67, 569, 647, 

919, 926. 

Destruction of property 623 

business premises. . .77-78, 85, 88, no, 1 13-14, 
177, 370, 408, 520, 563, 587-88, 589, 686, 
722-23, 773, 812-13, 815, 823-24, 825-26, 
858-S9, 862, 884, 885-86, 912, 924, 928, 
1068. 

compensation denied 153, 585, 586, 588, 623 

creameries 37, 64, 153, 204, 251, 387, 406, 

519, 584-86, 623, 673, 680, 824, 913-14, 
944, 987, 994-96, 1015, 1058, 1060. 

factories 92, 94, 111-12, 587, 590, 618, 623, 

913-14, 987, 1060. 

financial losses from 47, 590-91, 832-34, 

921-22, 923-24, 944-45, 991-94, 996. 

homes 63, 77, 85, 88, 89, 107, 1 09-11, 125- 

26, 136, 371, 374, 383, 408-9, 411-12, 456, 
521-22, 562-63, 584, 602, 603, 604, 605, 
607, 618, 622-23, 686, 687, 710-n, 810-11, 
812-13, 815, 823-25, 826, 861-62, 883, 
911-12, 923, 928-29, 1057, 1058, 1059. 

ordered as reprisal 804-5, 1058-59 

killing of animals 59, 60, 456, 669,, 

672, 714. 

farms 338-39, 522, 583-84, 603, 698, 714-15. 

1058. 

public buildings 35~36, 127, 408, 603, 605, 

618, 666, 815, 819-27, 829-30, 838, 878, 
910-11, 1001, 1015. 

suffering from 111-12, 589-90, 609-10, 698, 

842-43, 918-19. 

towns and cities 520, 812-13, 822-25, 827, 

828-43, 878, 879-81, 910-14, 1057, 1058. 
1060. 

universal 698, 715, 898 

windows i4- J 5, 7 2 ~73, 83. 102, 112, 351, 

408, 520, 522, 588, 686, 696, 705, 707, 
710, 741, 812, 822, 823-24, 848, 862, 884. 
912. 
See also Burnings, Raids, Reprisals. 

de Valera, Eamon . . 4, 5, 242, 430 

elected from three constituencies 242 

elected president 169, 243, 475 

ideals supported by Irish people 337 

in jail 243, 275 

letter to President Wilson 617 

solution of Irish problem ;•.••• I0 ^ 1 

Devastation by Cromwell, present conditions 

worst since 847 

by Henry VIII and Elizabeth 477-479 

in 1798 232-33 

in Bantrv 126 






1079 



Devlin Page 

in Limerick 1 36, 520 

in Lisburn 520 

in Tuam 604 

like Belgium 18, 622 

throughout Ireland 520, 698, 715 

worst in martial law zone 847-48 

Devlin, Joseph 158, 571 

Devonshire regiment 171 

disgraceful acts of 381-83 

Devoy, John 187 

Dillon, Dr. Thomas 162 

Dillon's Corners, alleged ambush 828, 838 

reprisals without justification 883 

Documents, seditious 68, 205, 230, 505, 786, 

900, 1063. 

planted to incriminate 306-8, 623, 676 

Dollan, Mrs. Agnes 549, 620 

Dominic, Father, 298, 324; terrorized and im- 
prisoned 1037-38 

Dominican Church, window destroyed 83 

Dominion home rule 1039 

acceptable in Ulster 178 

favored by Free Liberals 540, 573 

hope for abandoned 546 

no solution for Irish problem 139 

not in 1914 bill 146 

Southern Unionists plead for 155, 607 

Don, Rt. Hon. O'Connor 489, 490 

Donegal, County 429, 448, 458-59. 896 

burnings in 898 

poverty in 453~54 

Doon, sacked by troops 824 

Doran, Sir Henry 495-96 

Dowdall, J. C... 155 

Dowse, Bishop 640 

Down, County, won by Unionists 760 

Doyle, Michael Francis, of counsel 718/F 

Doyle, Mr., shot and left to die 1045 

Drangan, captured police released uninjured. . 794 
Drinking and drunkenness among Crown 

forces 65, 82, 83, 87, 97-99, 100, 133-36, 

162, 165, 367-68, 369, 399, 400-1, 410, 
566, 587, 622, 670, 675, 686, 687, 708, 
778, 793, 812, 814, 822, 853. 857, 859. 892, 
910, 914, 933, 1040, 1041-42. 1068. 

drink and extra pay for raids 418-19 

murder Canon Magner 814, 1042 

drunken officers in command 399-400 

run amuck, 700-1 ; terrorize woman 1040 

in Ireland ceasing 250, 423 

Vblunteers suppress 695, 697, 708 

Government bar in barracks 416, 426, 566, 

670-71. 
Driscoll, Sergeant, attempts to plant evi- 
dence 690-9 1 

raids Millwood home 703 

Drogheda 109. 112, 116, 138 

Drumshambo, partiallv sacked by police 824 

Drumsna, captured military released uninjured. 794 
Du Bois, Dr. L. Paul, excerpt from Contem- 
porary Ireland 1 042-44 

Dublin 92, 116, 138, 141, 145, 151, 168, 204, 

239, 429- 

Bachelor's Walk massacre 145 

Bridewell 273 

British spies shot ■. 260 

captured soldiers released uninjured. ... 794, 795 

Castle 166-67, 430 

decrees repudiated 973 

evidence of espionage obtained from 259 

false reports from.. 33, 36. 365, 996. 1064, 1067 

interferes with newspaper reporters 601-2 

officials indicted for murder 362-63, 365 

orders escaped prisoners shot 392 

orders invasion of religious services 426 

Protestant rector protests to 381 

Chamber of Commerce 158 

Charitv Organization Society 455 

City Hall, 981 ; raided .' 736 

Convents raided and terrorized 1037 

Councillors arrested and imprisoned 736 

Crime, absence of 461 

Croke Park massacre 300, 593", 863-67 



Economic Page 

Easter uprising 143, 212-13, 215-17, 220 

Declaration of independence 241-42 

Express 365 

fairs and markets suppressed 388 

Freeman's Journal 115 

editors imprisoned 786, 1044 

suppressed 47, 787 

High Court of Ireland 761-62 

Gazette 970 

hold-ups 674 

houses destroyed 823 

in state of siege 474 

King Street atrocities '053 

Lord Mayor 431-470 

Mansion House 243, 430-31, 980 

Martial law ! . 542-1027 

Metropolitan Police disarm id=;-66, 609, 676, 

. 733, 798. 

safety of 609, 732—33 

Minister & Leinster Bank nibbed by mili- 
tary 492-93 

National Library 473 

National University 458 

one-room tenements 451-53 

Phoenix Park training depot 376-77, 391- 

395, 407, 421. 
police, unarmed, protected by Sinn Fein. . 165-66, 
609, 619, 732. 

population 451-52 

Poverty 451-53, 461 

raids 49, 430-3 1 , 592, 736, 863 

Republic declared 241-42 

Richmond barracks 258, 269, 270 

St. Brigid's school 333~34 

slums 145, 429-30, 451-53, 461. 474, 1004 

streets of, blocked and searched 49 

suffering in 591 

terrorism in 49, 619 

tuberculosis hospitals 168 

University 962, 980 

wages '. 429. 438-39, 450 

working girls 429-30 

Duffy, Miss Gavan, school of 333 

Dum-dum bullet fired at Miss MacSwiney. . . . 80 

Dun Laoghaire, non-sectarian school 1033 

See also Kingstown. 
Dundalk, 274; captured police released unin- 
jured, 794; houses wrecked by military... 824 
Dunford, Coionel, captured and released unin- 
jured 795 

Dungloe 429 

Dunmore 410, 761 

Dwyer, member of Thurles arbitration court.. 34 
murder of by police 32 



East, Colonel, pledge to mayor and bishop 

broken 217-18 

Easter uprising 143, 159, 222, 269, 313, 352, 

628, 630, 631, 636. 

arrests and imprisonments 143, 222, 631, 

I0 S3- 

awakens England to Irish crisis 541 

begins war for independence 2I2--I3, 354 

conflict of orders 215-17 

Dublin shelled 212 

execution of leaders i6ih, 220, 242, 467-68, 

541-42, 546, 614, 1053. 

cheered by House of Commons 467-69 

makes Ireland Republican 16111, 222-23, 

467,-69, 541-42. 546. 

in Cork ,. .216-19 

lives lost 209 

precipitated by industrial conditions 1004 

spies 258-59 

Kcnnoiiiic blockade 579-84 

conditions 5- 45 1 

life of Ireland ^8-40 

effect of terrorism on 38 40, 116-17, 

655-56. 

plot to destroy 89, 579-89, 617-18 

self-supporting 163-64, 236-38, 487-90, 

490-91, 500-1, 729-30, 945-53. 962, 973 



1080 



Edinburgh Page 

motives underlie England's opposition to in- 
dependence 442-44. 457-58, 944-45. 99° 

Edinburgh, demonstrations in 532 

Education, agricultural 169 

Belfast, Catholic schools 551-52 

inadequate schools 433, 440-42, 551 

semi-literates manipulated by politicians. 550-52 
unschooled children become cheap labor. 552-53 

• Christian Brothers schools 8, 195, 280, 396 

coeducational school 1033 

disestablishment fund 193-94 

Gaelic College 1032 

Gaelic League renationalizes people 201-3, 

1031-32. 

hedge schools 192 

Irish language taught 850 

Irish summer colleges destroyed 847 

literacy, effect of poverty on 454— 55 

non-sectarian school J033 

nuns' schools 195, 220-22 

British system, budget less than for police.. 951 

designed to denationalize 191-93, 221 

National Education Act 191-93. 455. 458 

differs from English Act 552 

rejected by Archbishop MacHale 193 

"national" schools 192 

plan of 191 

private schools 193 

secondary schools 193-96 

anglicizing influence of 194-96, 220-22 

whiskey tax helps finance 193-94 

Republican educational program 332-34 

An Dail to finance 334 

Minister of Education 333, 972 

Padraic Pearse's school 33 

schools for girls founded 333~34 

schools, not attacked 847 

not used to propagandize 334 

Ulster school issue 433, 440-42 

universities 280, 444, 454, 458, 485, 719, 

722, 799, 962. 

Edward, King 64. 203 

Egar, John, affidavit 755-56 

Egypt, atrocities in 239 

Elections, analysis of vote 154 

county council (1920), Republicans win.. 154-56, 
225, 244, 475, 724, 1014. 

local government (1920) 7, 8, 11-13, 29-30, 

93-94, -24, 244-45, 475, 546, 550, 724, 894. 

machinery of 719-20 

Republican victory 154-56, 244-45, 475, 

546, 721, 724, 1014, 1055-56. 

parliamentary (1918) 223-24, 354, 474-75, 

483, 544-45- 
Coalition Government adopts Carsonism . 544 45 
forty imprisoned Republican leaders 

elected 47 1 , 483-84 

Republican victory 155-56, 223-25, 

242, 474-76, 545-47. 624, 723, 1054. 

pledge of Republican candidates 224 

proportional representation 12, 225, 475-76, 

725-6, 804. 

prove people want Republic 154-56, 223-24, 

244-45, 352, 747776. 

Unionists lose ground in Belfast 225, 

475-76. 550, 555- 

in Ulster 154, 156)1, 223-24, 555, 1056 

Elizabeth, Queen. 198, 49' 

extirpation oolicv of 478 

Ellis. Edith M.... 518 

Emigrant ship with Sinn Feiners sunk 67 

Emigration, caused by "cow lots" 448-49, 936 

from Ulster 940 

object of destruction of Irish industries.... 65, 

613, 623. 
of young men, prevented by development of 

industries 44 s , 584 

restricted by Dail Eireann 868-69, 974~75 

wanted by Lord French 65, 499, 

579, 623, 975. 
Emly, captured soldiers and police released.. 795 

creamery wrecked 824 

shot up by police 824 



English Page 

Emmet, Robert 186, 1047 

Employment 94, 95, 254 

Belfast unemployment strike 175—76 

child labor 455-58, 55 2 -53 

destruction to deprive people of 65, m-12, 

339, 581, 589, 842, 915-16. 

development of industries gives 204, 584 

hiring fairs 454 

lack of 451 

causes 65, 94-95, 111-12, 157, 174, 

176, 254, 339, 406, 448-50, 555-57, 581, 
585, 589-90, 655-56, 842, 915-16, 1028. 

suffering from 589-90, 610, 656, 

842-43, 918-19. 
women's wages and working conditions. .429-30, 
447, 450-1, 553. 561, 565. 
England: 

abuse of power 486 

authority in Ireland, an usurpation 186 

based on force 166-67, 520, 973 

ceasing 524, 661, 973 

Bank of, drains Irish deposits 957~58 

borrowing from America 213, 240, 897-98 

cheap meat supply from Ireland 449, 938 

clever nation 202 

colonies, France aids revolutions in 214 

courses open to 523, 624-25 

creates Ulster difficulty 230-31, 251-52, 

476, 616, 621. 

destroys Irish industries 229-30, 

445-47, 449, 466-67, 481-83, 486, 579-89, 
590, 617-18, 623, 655-56, 939-40, 979, 
981-82, 984-90, 991-92, 1067-68. 

difficulty of, Ireland's opportunity 214 

economic exploitation of Ireland 266, 486, 

936-37, 946-49, 990. 

interests in Ireland 443-44, 939 

motives underlie opposition to Republic. 442-44, 
457-58, 944-45, 990. 

encourages Irish emigration 65, 237, 

499, 579. 613, 623, 975. 

false pretense of self-determination 850 

greed 466 

fosters Ulster religious prejudices 230-31, 

251-52, 476, 616, 621, 1031, 1034-35. 

infidelity to public engagements 486, 522-23 

converts Home Rule Party to Sinn 

Fein 523-24 

Ireland's best customer 1051 

Land Acts money not a gift .240-41 

wrested from 238-40, 942 

liberal groups in 5 

migration of Irish labor to 448-40 

misgovernment in Ireland 385, 486, 

499, 623, 847, 946-52, 956. 

oppression 215 

plans massacre 89 

right to rule Ireland forfeited 486-87 

taxes drained from Ireland 163-64, 236-38, 

486, 487-90, 491, 500-1, 729-30, 945-56. 

trade, monopoly on Irish 966 

broken by Republican Government ... .066-67 

violation of rules of war by 260-62, 

486, 487-90. 766, 786, 808, 1059. 

war against Ireland, cost of 591, 897-9S 

state of 374, 524. 621-22, 808 

admitted by Lloyd George 202, 595 

two lines of conflict 979 

war with France 214 

witnesses summoned from 4, 530 

English aggression compels resistance 352-55. 

356-58. 

arguments against Irish independence 236, 

251, 255, 457-58, 608-9, 613, 616-17, 1051. 
aristocrats support Ulster rebellion .... 143, 205, 
540-41- 

atrocities 209-10, 232-33, 327, 770- 

7', 785, 796, 822-23. See also Atro- 
cities.. 

attitude toward Irish 127, 146, 170-71, 

399, 47i. 521-22, 532, 591. 593, 595. 606, 
612-13, 821, 996. 
authorities prevent transport of food 339-40 









1081 



English Page 

seize MacSwiney body from family .. .328-29 

Board of Trade 965 

capitalism fights Irish cooperatives. .944-45, 990 
churches, attitude toward Ulster persecu- 
tions 568-69 

clearances in Ireland 477, 1009 

Commission proves financial competency of 

Ireland 236-37, 487-90, 491, 945~46 

conquest 185 

debt saddled on Ireland by fraud 235-36 

gold 213 

insurance companies refuse payment 588, 

534-35, S59, 915- 

jails 22, 24-25, 27, 93, 132, 160, 238, 250, 

258, 269, 270, 275, 279, 330, 392, 469, 
470-71, 473, 631, 784, 1036, 1038, 1039. 

jails 22, 29, "", 39, 212, 631 

junkers 143 

newspapers, liberal press prints truth about 

Ireland 533-34, 615 

Xnrthcliffe .press 615 

tell only of Irish violence 547-48, 

573, .595, 601, 794. 
people deceived about Ireland.. 90, 532, 793, 995 
meetings to inform.. 532, 537, 548, 572, 576-77 

uninformed about Ireland 547-48, 

573. 576-77, 595, 596. 
plantations, 1009; in Ulster. .. 179, 336, 477, 616 
policy in Ireland. See British policy. 

prejudice against Irish 613-14 

propaganda 77, 202, 209-10, 263, 295, 

306, 307-3, 338, 372, 603, 793-94," 1034, 
io .35- 

apologist deliberately insincere 175 

British-controlled cables and press 784-86 

Carson subsidized 205 

countered 203, 314-15 

incites Crown forces to violence 591, 

592, 596, 624. 
miscalculates effects of MacSwiney im- 
prisonment 312-13, 318 

prevarications 336, 586, 593;!, 624, 626, 

746, 758, 773, 825-26, 829-30, 839, 841, 
1063. 

The Weekly Summary 592 

unscrupulous 1044H 

pound, depreciation of 958-59 

public buildings, Ireland taxed for 948-49 

secret service. See British secret service. 
soldiers, hatred for Americans. .. .686, 872, 875 

solution for Irish problem 17, 141, 474, 598 

sympathizer, reprisal against 588 

usurpation 287, 309 

wool 230 

yeomen, atrocities of 232-33 

English, Rev. M. M., brothers fired upon by 

Black-and-Tans 57 

home raided 54-57 

invited solely by Commission 69 

life threatened 57 

property searched and confiscated 55-57 

testimony of 6, 53-69 

English, Patrick, arrested 56-57 

Englishmen, ashamed of Government's deeds. 524 

Ennis 591 

captured military released 795 

Enniskillen 76 

Ennistymon 579, 621 

houses burned 602 

murder and terrorism in 520-2 1 

sacked 520, 824 

town hall burned 603 

"Escape from arrest" an excuse for murder.. 61, 
l6 o, 373-74, 392, 766-67, 688-89, 768-69, 
773, 811, 813, 1042, 1045, 1064-67. 

Essex, Earl of 478 

Everard, Sir Nugent 445 

Evidence, false, manufactured 306-8, 586, 

623, 676, 690-91, 744, 773. 

Exhibit I 357", 1053-58 

Exhibit II 6oon, 1059-60 

Exhibit III 60471, 1060-63 

Exhibit IV 104611, 1064-68 



Flood Page 

Expelled workers 157, 174-75, 176, 180 

Relief Committee 550, 1049-50 

administration of relief ... 566-67, 569, 571-72 

shipyard riots 174-76, 556-57 

basis political, not religious. . 555-56, 567, 1050 

Extremists, Sinn Fein 141, 147, 318, 

. 336, 365, 523, 596. 

elections disprove jce 

false insinuation 172, 337, 641, 660 



Factories burned 1060 

Balbriggan 92, 94, 623, 987 

brings destitution m-12, 915-16 

Limerick tannery 587 

Mallow milk condensery 590, 618, 

913-14, 515, 987- 

inhumane consequences 590-91 

Fahey, Constable, murdered after resigning. . 383 

Fairs and markets suppressed 387-88, 424, 

543, 580, 715, 1054, 1055, 1060. 

Famine, Irish.......... I99 , 454 , 937, 940 

artificially made by England. . 187, 477-78, 480 

deaths from 187, 478 

depopulation by .' 49 8 

of milk in cities 406 591 

Farms burned 338-39, 522, 583-84, 

603, 714-15, 1058. 

destroyed 698 

Farmers, deciding factor in Ireland 1050 

discrimination against 444~45 

poverty of . 453-54, 495-97 

Pr r SP ^ y ° f 2 39, 943-44 

limited 454) 45 g 

destroyed 580-81 583-84, 590, 698, 936-37 

Protestant and Catholic injured alike. . .466, 580 

suffer from burning of hay ricks. ... 580, 583-84 

destruction of creameries 64, 339, 

59.0-91, 927, 944-45- 

See Agriculture and Creameries. 

Farrer, Lord * ^„ 

Fawsitt, J. L., Irish Consul-General 201, 204, 

229, 241, 892, 935. 

testimony of 93S~978 

£ e ? kle • 366 

heis suppressed 398-99, 401-2 

Fenians ,87, 189, 238 

Fenian Uprising 184, 187-88, 237 

Ferguson, H. C 455 

Fermanagh, County 76, 555, 574 

Fermoy 260, 380, 899, 996 

sacked by military 823 

soldiers from burn Mallow 618, 909-14 

Fianna Fail, Terence MacSwiney starts. .. .210-11 

Fieries 4S 6 

Figgis, Darrell 77> I72 

arrested 585 

murder attempted 982-83 

on the run 984 

secretary Industrial Inquiry Commission. 980-85 

Financial independence of Ireland 163-64, 

236-38, 487-90, 4 go-9i, 962, 972. 
taxes exceed upkeep of European states.... 501 

loss from damage by Crown forces 47, 

590, 832-34, 921-22, 923-24, 944-45, 991- 
94, 996. 
Relations Commission. .237, 487-90, 491, 945-46 

Finland 1 40, 1 46 

Finlay, Rev. Thomas 996 

Finnegan, Constable, shot 28 

Firearms. See Arms and Ammunition. 

Fisheries 95, 115, 244, 491, 972 

cooperative societies among fishermen 972 

inquiry into 980, 982 

Republican Fisheries Department 972 

Fitzgerald, Admiral 90 

hunger striker, death of 374, 802 

funeral of restricted 374-75, 802-3 

Lord Edward 186 

Flaherty, John, brutally beaten 514 

Flanders 170 

Thurles destroyed worse than 18 

Flood, Henry, Protestant patriot. .228, 230-31, 234 



1082 



Flower Page 

Flower, Assistant Inspector General, resigna- 
tion of 1056 

Foley, Constable, shot 852 

Folk, Hon. Joseph W 3" 

Food, available for those with money 926 

Committee, Irish 980 

cost of 926 

destruction by Crown forces 5 1 ' 

causes critical shortage 338-39. 4°6, 

580-81, 590-91. 

distribution, arranged by Irish Labor 1025 

chief difficulty . 610-11 

difficult to secure in cities 38, 406, 

582-83, 591. 7'5- 
English prevent transport to cities. . .339-40, 
S82-83. 

export prohibited by Republic 239-40, 974 

starvation diet 45i~53 

black bread and no milk for babies. .. .405-6 

people facing 7 ! 5 

terrorism enhances price of 38 

makes difficult to get...... 38, 116 

Force, British authority maintained by 141, 

166-67, 474, 1053-59. 
Forde, Cornelius, home and store burned. ... 91 1, 
927-29. 

statement of 9 2 8 

France ix, 213, 214, 231-32, 

240, 313. 333. 57i, 624, 851. 

Irish consuls in 966 

trade with 967 

Francis. Rev. R 716 

Free Liberals 573, 60 1 

Freedom, Ireland's continuous fight for. .. 185-87, 
212—13, 286. 
Easter Week first battle in present war. .212-13, 

541- 

Fenian Uprising (1867) 187-88 

Insurrection of 1798 186 

horrors repeated today 233 

provoked by English atrocities 232 

Land Wars 237, 1009-10 

Led by Protestants. . 186-87, 43i, 43 2 , 460, 1037 

Repeal Movement 186 

Republican Movement (1848) 186, 188 

right to secure aid from England's enemies. 213- 
14, 231-32. 

Tithe Wars 186 

of press and speech suppressed. See Sup- 
pressions. 

terrorism intensifies determination for 337, 

652, 661, 712, 851, 919-20, 1056. 
See also Independence. 

Freeman's Journal i'5 

editors arrested and imprisoned 786, 1044 

penalized for printing truth 787, 104411 

suppressed 47. 787 

French, Lord 64m, 1055 

charged as an "Irish service" 948, 949 

correspondence captured 258 

ignores jury summons 365, 659, 660 

indicted for murder 80, 363 

Irish "poisonous insects" 471, 99° 

resigns from army to support Ulster rebel- 
lion 145 

says too many young men in Ireland 65, 

499, 579. 623, 975, 990. 

Fright and exposure, deaths from 117, 

742-3, 917-18. 

Frightfulness, policy of 1056-58 

Frongach prison 631 

Froude, J. A 235 

Fuel industry suppressed 466-67 

Funerals, armed military dominate. 374, 802-3, 881 

multiple, of outrage victims 881-82 

restrictions on 117, 374~75, 5 12 . 802-3 

Furlong, Lily, shot by Black-and-Tans. .403-4. 405 
Furnas, Paul .)., testimony of 51 7-29 



G Division 257-S9. 273. 658, 676 

See also Secret Service, British, and Spies. 
Gaelic college , . , ,,,,,,, , , . , , . 103a 



Germany Page 

Ireland, religious persecutions unknown. .252-54, 
501-2, 608, 640, 920-21. 

language 192, 194, 197, 201-3, 469, 779 

spoken 202, 276-77, 1043-44, 1049 

used in Dail Eireann 243 

League 197, 212, 344, 629, 719 

non-sectarian and non-political 203, 1030 

overcomes religious prejudices. . 1029-34, 1035 
renationalizes people. .201-3, I0 3 I -3 2 , 1043-44 

movement. 1042-44 

Gaelicizing Irish Protestantism 1033 

Gallagher, Constable, assaults American 790 

Gait and Wilbur, attest of transcript xi 

Galvin, Daniel, ex-Constable 380, 381, 400 

testimony of 421-27 

Galway 83, 151, 171, 247, 408, 461. 506 

Archbishop of 408 

barracks, Government bar in 416-17 

Bay, advantages for American trade 963 

denuded of shipping 491-92 

civil inquests suppressed 85, 603, 769-70 

Connaclit Tribune 715-16 

continuous manhunt 863 

county council, members arrested 356 

Easter uprising in 143, 213 

Express destroyed 85, 134, 603, 825, 862 

farmers, poor 459 

hay ricks burned 583-84 

houses burned and destroyed 85, 133, 

411-12, 413. 854, 861-62. 

Krumm, Black-and-Tan, killing of 83-84, 

130-31, 161-62, 410-11, 603. 

Land trouble 1006, 1008, 1009, 1010 

Looting 511, 587 

murders '30-35, 603 

Father Griffin 162, 715-16 

James Quirk.... 85, 133, 162, 413, 603, 853-54 
City Councillor Walsh. ... 509-1 1, 603, 859-61 

population 418 

raids 82-83, 130-31, 411-13, 418, 507, 602 

reprisals 84-85, 130-35. 603 

peaceful conditions prior to 852-53 

shot up and bombed 410-11, 824, 825 

women assaulted 855 

Geddes, Sir Eric, ties up Irish railways 89, 

582, 1025. 

Geddis, Deputy Inspector, resigns 384 

Geneva Red Cross 575, 6 1 2 

George I, King 226-27 

George III 226 

George VI, picture destroyed 170 

prohibits arrest of Carson 144 

signs Home Rule Bill 146 

George, Lloyd 90, 160, 172, 

256, 355, 445-46, 596, 966. 

admits state of war in Ireland 202, 595 

called upon to stop murders 766 

condones killings and reprisals 689 

convention called by 143, 1054 

crimes of agents 1058 

elected 354 

indicted for murder 80, 363, 767-68 

policy supported by Parliament 601 

refuses to save MacSwiney's life 319 

tactics repeat horrors of 1798 322 

unemployment insurance act of 918-19 

untruthful 359, 624, 641, 758 

German atrocities 327, 827 

exceeded by British in Ireland ix, 209, 

770-71, 785, 796, 822-23. 

stories of 209, 785 

gold 213-14, 1049 

invasion 571 

Kaiser, Carson threatens to invite 204, 214 

to be hung 547 

plot invented 143, 162, 243-471 

prisoners 631 

reporters attend Belfast parade 144 

soldiers , 256-57 

submarines ., , 617 

Germany, American Red Cross unable to work 

in , . , , 611 

arms imported from, by South Ireland, 145, 175 






10&3 



Ghetto Page 

by Ulster 144. "75. 54i 

declaration of war against 145 

relations with Sinn Fein. ....... 1 75, 214, 646 

right of Republic to secure aid from. .. .213-14, 

231-32. 

suppositious American union with 235 

to pay war costs 547 

Ghetto, Jewish, in Cork 252 

Republican, in Belfast 568-69 

Gibbons, John, funeral restricted 1 17-18 

murdered 105-6, 1058 

Ginnell, Hon. Laurence 219-20, 271 

evidence not to be used against Republic. 463-64 
repeated imprisonments. 469-71, 472-73, 489, 490 

testimony of 462-505 

Girls, assaulted 750, 751, 810— 1 1 

arrested 744 

cutting of hair as reprisal. .. 600-1, 810-11, 855 

driven from homes 8 1 o— 1 1 

held up by Black-and-Tans 381, 382, 712, 

776, 887-88. 

rape attempted 749-5 ' 

robbed 712-13 

shot 403-4, 405, 601, 669, 713, 810, 880 

terrorized 710, 810-11, 865, 1063 

wages, Belfast 78, 157, 439 

Dublin 4-9-30 

starvation 447. 450-1 

working conditions, Belfast 78, 440 

Gladstone, W. E 190, 235, 238 

< ilanbane, burned 456 

Glasgow 485 

housing conditions compared 451-52 

Gleason, Arthur L 5» 

Glengariff 89, 431 

shot up by police 813, 824 

Glynn, Miss, shot by police 810 

Good, Mr 177 

History of Ulster 175 

Gordon, Dawson 434, 440, 443 

Gore, Senator 199 

Gort 421 

murder of Mrs. Ellen Quinn at 300H, 

809-10, 1040, 1058. 

Grady, Miss, assaulted 84 

Grants, local government, decreased by Par- 
liament 948 

Republican administration functioning with- 
out 44, 727, 730, 955. 1016, 1018 

taken from Irish taxes 725, 1017 

withheld 168, 586, 1015-17 

effect on disabled soldiers 758-59, 760 

education 433> 7 2 7 

hospitals rind asylums. ... 168, 727-28, 1016 

from Republican counties only 760 

to paralyze self-government 168, 

726-27, 730-31, 979- 
See also Local Government. 

Grattan, Henry 228, 230-3 1 . 234 

opposes Act of Union 236 

Grattan's Parliament 196-97, 227, 228 

disabilities 228-29 

prosperity of Ireland under 228-29 

Gray, Major, searches American citizen 56-57 

Greece 476, 5°' 

Green, Mrs. Alice Stopford 229 

Green, Lieutenant, tortures prisoners 781 

Greenwood, Sir Hamar 160, 250, 505, 538, 997, 

I01 7- 
admits murders sanctioned by Government.. 151 

admits Irish courts functioning 154 

crimes of agents 1058 

falsely repudiates witnesses 626 

ingenuity of evasion 842, 987-88, 1057 

prevaricates about beating of trades union- 
ists , 1 063 

about burning of Cork 825-26, 

829-30, 839. 841. 

Cork Corporation protests against 839 

about burning of creameries. . 152-54, 586, 995 

about thefts by raiders 746 

salary taxed upon Ireland 949 

threatens to cancel pensions 168 

Grey, Sir Edward 209, 973 



Hogan Page 

Griffin, Father 162-63 

kidnapped 161, 800 

murdered 16211, 715-16, 799-800 

Griffin, Miss Geialdine 1032 

Griffith, Arthur.. 201, 203, 227, 337, 344, 505, 1005 

character and ability ■ 440 

elected vice-president of Republic 243 

founds Sinn Fein 1 96-97 

imprisoned 260-61, 505 

policy 196-97, Jo 1 

Protestant leader 432 

states Ireland's aims 1051 

states number of troops in Ireland 1 »S 

unmasks British spy 249 50 

Griffiths, Dr 291, 292, 294, 297. 313. 323, 325 

Guilfoil, P. J., house burned 366, 370-71 

family escape unclad 370-71 

testimony of ;oi> 76 

witnesses beating of priest 368-69 

Gun-running at Ilowth 145, 2116 7 

at Larne 145. 175, 206-7, 54>. 607 

shows England's bias I43~5, 206-7 

II 

Hackett, Francis, testimony of 6, 137-74 

Hague Conventions violated by England 261, 

467, 486-87, 1059. 

Hales, Thomas, affidavit of 780-83 

imprisonment 783-84, 786 

torture of 780-84 

Hamburg, arms imported from 206 

Hamilton, Sir Robert G. C 489 

Hampshire Regiment, raid.> and robs City 

.Hall 755 

Hands in pockets, prohibited 789, 872-73 

persons with to be shot 66 

Dr. Hickey shot 863 

Hannon, Rev. C 1061, 1062 

Hannley, Patrick, murdered in bed 813 

Hardy, criminal sent as spy 249-50 

Harmon, Canon, of Mallow 908-9 

Harlan and Wolff 443 

Harte, tortured to insanity 780-84 

Hartnett, Mr., murdered by Black-and-Tans... 668 

Mrs., clubbed by Black-and-Tans 669-70 

Hartney house destroyed 64 

Hastings 267 

Haulbowline Island, dangerous Black-and-Tan 

transferred 708 

Hay ricks burned. ... 1 10, 371, 374, 383, 456, 520. 
562-63, 580-1, 583-84. 590, 714-15. 

effect on agricultural prosperity 580, 590 

importation of fodder to replace pro- 
hibited 580-8 1 

Hayes, Eamon, deported from Thurles 20 

Headford 506-7, 510. 514-15 

Healey, murdered by Black-and-Tans 668 

Health, effect of poverty on 454 

effect of raids and terrorism on 19, 38-39, 

135. 370, 524, 628-29, 632-33. 

Hegarty, William, murder of 812 

Henderson, Arthur, on Labor Commission to 

Ireland 19. 1021 

Cork corporation protests to 839 

opposes Government policy in Ireland 601 

tells of threats against Thurles 34 

Hennissey, home burned 126 

Henry VIII 185 

destroys Irish industries 481-82 

extirpation policy of 477-7S 

Herford, Miss Amy 620 

Hessians 227, 232-33 

Hibernians, Ancient Order of 208 

Hickey, Dr., flogged and shot 863 

Iligginson, General 11. A., seizes Republicans 

as hostages 803 

lligson, Dr. ..289, 293, 312, 313-14. 3-4- 3-'5, 326 

Hildegard, commander in Galway 17 1 

Hiring fairs 454. 45 8 

Hobson, J. A 538 

Hoffman, murdered by Black-and-Tans 456 

Hogan, Miss, assaulted 811 

Mr,, killed in Crake Park massacre. .. .864, 866 



1084 






Hold-ups Page 

Hold-ups, daily, in Cork 871-74, 884-85, 887 

of girls 381-82, 712, 776, 887-88 

of merchants 511, 934 

on country roads .... 59, 70-7 1 , 679, 68 1 , 682, 987 

Holland, Irish trade with 967 

Hollinshed, Raphael, historian 478 

Holy Cross, murder of Dwyer at 32 

Holyhead 303. 328 

Home Rule 211, 237, 414, 456, 486, 607 

Bill of 1912 204-5, 206 

of 1914 '44, 146, 540, 596 

inducement to support war 210 

signed by King 146 

suspended 146-47 

of 1920 14'', 555, 966 

protects Ulster capitalists 555. 574 

despaired of 146, 546-47 

English arguments against 236, 433 

inadequate 1 89, 608 

movement for 185, 188 

Party obliterated 456,522-23 

(See Rcdmonditcs and Nationalists.) 

policy of Government unpopular 540, 845 

Ulster rebels against 143-44, 146, 204-5, 

206, 540-41. 
shifts position upon.... 545, 549, 554, 574, 845 
unacceptable to Irish people. . . 147, 845, 846, 966 
See also Dominion Home Rule and Redmond, 
John. 

Honan, Mrs., affidavit 817-18 

home raided 638, 817 

Hosiery factory burned 92 

Horgan, Timothy, affidavit 747~48 

shop and home raided and robbed 747-48 

Horgan, Bridget, affidavit 748-49 

raided, robbed and terrorized . 749 

Hospital, town, military raid American citi- 
zens 54-56 

murder of Patrick Lynch in 60-61, 160, 769 

shot up 62 

Hospitals, commandeered for barracks. .. .41, 126 

effect of withdrawal of grants on 727-28, 

758-60. 

Hostages, no comparison with Belgium 827 

Republican leaders seized as 803 

House of Commons 89, 151, 189, 202, 219, 

220, 225, 259, 325, 361, 443, 466, 467, 
537- 601, 793, 922, 931. 

cheers execution of Irish leaders 467-69 

discriminates against Irish speakers 467 

Irish members refuse to sit in 204, 465, 545 

House of Lords 144. '47, 153, 443- 607 

Home Rule bill passed over 146 

members lead Ulster Rebellion 144 

Veto Bill '47 

Houses burned and destroyed 63, 77- 85, 88, 

89, 107, 109-11, 119, 125-26, 136. 371, 
374, 383. 408-9. 411-12, 456. 521-22. 
562-63, 5JS4, 602, 603, 604, 605, 607, 618. 
622-23, 686, 687. 710-n, 810-11, 812-13, 
815, 823-25, 826, 861-62, 883, 911-12. 
923, 928-29, 1057, 1058, 1059- 

commandeered 39. 4 ' . 62, 66. 

72, 78, 126, 148, 982, 1057. 
Howe, Dr. Frederic C. member of the Com- 
mission v " 

acting chairman 3" 

Howth, arms imported 145. 206-7 

Hue and Cry, The 392 

Hunchback murdered I2 5 

tortured 778-79 

Hungary 169. 454 

Hunger Strikes, effect of 284ff. 694 

Mounrjoy prison 93. ' 60, 2 73 

religious demonstration at 1036 

won by labor strike 160, 1023 

of Lord Mayor MacSwiney. .272, 284, 290^ 291 

of Laurence Ginnell 470 

Wormwood Scrubbs prison 24-25, 27 

Hunger strikers, deaths of 291, 681 

funerals restricted 374"75. 802-3 



Industries Page 

mark of respect forbidden 681-82 

released 27, 1023 

thrown into 'punishment cell" 24-25 

to die in jail 66, 1057 

Hunter, W. A., M. P 489, 490 

Hutchinson, Hely 228 

Hutson, Captain, affidavit 819-20 

Hyde, Dr. Douglas, President Gaelic League. . 1029- 
30, 1032. 

I 

Immunity given Crown forces. .67, 380, 386, 1057 
abolition of coroners' inquests gives. . . .770, 776 

Imprisonment without trial 21, 143, 469, 471, 

720-21, 755, 883, 1053, 1060. 
See also Arrests, Deportations, Prisoners. 

Incitements to violence 66-67, 380, 385-86, 

474. 591, 59-2, 596, 624, 1057. 

Independence, arguments against 236, 251, 

255, 456-58, 698-9, 613, 616-16, 1051. 

bloodless revolution to secure 352-55 

British Empire and 100, 608-9, 951 

declaration of Irish. .. .208, 241-42, 258, 469, 
961. 

signers executed 467-69 

demanded by people 29-30, 40, 59, 166- 

67, 194-95. 222-23, 286-88, 337, 652, 
1055, . I0 56. 

terrorism intensifies demand 337, 652, 

661, 712, 851, 919-20, 1056. 

economic, of Ireland 163-64, 236-38, 

487-90, 490-91, 962, 972. 
taxes exceed upkeep of European states.. 501 

goal of Parnell 1 88-90 

maximum demand 608 

sole solution of Irish issue 138-39, 141-42, 

337, 485, 523, 538-40, 625, 846, 850 
5 1 . 1051. 

Protestants favor 75, 77, 79, 159, 172, 

186, 188, 432-33- 912, 921, 977, 1035. 

fight for 186, 188, 431, 432, 460, 1037 

war for, Eastern Week first battle. .212-1 3, 542 
Republican election victory starts. ... 545-47 
See also Freedom. 

I ndia, atrocities in 232 

England incites religious prejudices 1034 

trouble in 925 

Indiscriminate beatings and floggings 455-56, 

653-54. 775. 790-91, 874-77, 987. 

burnings 63-64, 520, 580, 603, 

622, 804-5, 815, 832-34, 912. 

highway robbery 503-4, 653, 664, 775~76 

killings 650, 771-73, 774-75, 800-815, 

864-67, 929-30, 1053, 1060. 

raids and arrests 143, 218, 222, 471, 473, 

520, 622, 686-87, 1054-56. 

shooting and bombing 63-64, 113, 124, 370, 

399, 523, 605, 650, 654, 656, 669, 672, 687, 
700-1, 708, 773-74, 778, 790-91, 815, 828, 
857, 864, 880, 889, 892, 910-12, 930-3'. 
1050. 

Industrial conditions 74-75, 445-47 

precipitate Easter uprising 1004 

Development Association, Irish 201, 204, 

212, 445-46, 584-85, 618, 619. 
Industries, Irish: 

agriculture 7. 152, 169, 238-41, 

244, 444, 445, 453-54, 458, 466, 469-70. 
495-97, 497-99- 

prosperity destroyed 580-81, 583-84 

capital needed to develop 938, 940 

drained from Ireland by taxes. See under 

Taxes. 
drained from Ireland by British banks and 

insurance companies 957 _ s8 

foreign government prevents investment.. 94>"> 

Land Act loans not gifts 240-41, 941-42 

cattle raising 936-38, 989 

Commission of Inquiry into. ... 167. 975, 980-85 

outlawed by British .. 585, 975-76, 981-83, 984 

controlled by England 443-44 



1085 



Infant Mortality Page 

cooperative 448, 585, 972, 973, 986, 

990, 994, 1065. 

creameries 204, 584, 994 

looted and burned 37-38, 152-54, 204, 

339, 519, 584-86, 618, 987, 988-89, 992, 
994, 1045. 

societies 38, 448, 461-62, 485, 

562, 944, 972, 978, 994. 

cotton 483 

dairying 115, 167 

report on milk production 167, 982, 983 

denied war contracts 445-46 

developed by Republican Government. .. .972-73 
See Industrial Development Associa- 
tion and Commission of Inquiry 
above. 

fisheries 95, 115, 244, 491, 972 

glass 483 

hampered by through rate system 939 

hosiery, Balbriggan 92-95, 584 

Irish Trade and Industry 619 

knitting mill 448 

Hnen 78, 95, 254, 553, 556, 565, 585, 941 

meat packing 581, 973 

motor trucks 655, 989 

milk condensing 590, 618, 913-14, 918 

milling 581 

Minister of Industries 972 

peasant crafts 585, 1065 

poultry 743, 745 

compared with Belfast shipyards 941 

promoted 201, 204, 466-67, 584-85, 980-82 

repressed and destroyed by England. .. .229-30, 
445-47, 449. 466-67, 481-83, 486, 579"89. 
590, 617-18, 623, 655-56, 939-40, 979. 
981-82, 984-90, 991-92, 1967-68. 

cause of 989-90 

result of 450, 589-90 

shipbuilding 443~44, 553, 556, 561 

soap 502 

textiles 115, 1 56-57, 254, 448, 453 

wool 130, 481, 585 

Infant mortality, Belfast 561 

Information, torture of prisoners to extort .. 107-8, 
752-53, 756, 778-79, 780-84, 789-90, 792, 
1037- 

Informers 757 

essential to British rule 624 

Penstraw kill id. 11S 

punished 588 

reward offered 117, 474, 594, 696 

unknown 392-93, 474, 678 

Inniscarra, raid on Si 2, 824 

Inquests, coroners: 

indict British Government So 

Crown forces for murder 31 -2j 

61, 79, 80, 766, 769-70. 

MacCurtain murder 80, 359—62 

suppressed 50, 69, 80, 16S, 409, 

622, 763, S61, 1057. 
gives immunity for Crown outrages. ... 770, 1057 
military, supplant civil.... 50, 69, 80, 763, 1066 

murderers to judge themselves 770 

no public report 841, 917 

public representatives debarred 841, 916 

Inquiry, public suppressed 85, 603, 775 

into burning of Cork refused 826, 839-40 

Insanity 454-55 

caused by imprisonment 1000 

by terrorism 88, 710, 918 

by torture 783-84 

Insurance, against damage by Crown forces... 588 
.859. 

American companies 835 

English companies take capital from Ireland 957 

refuse to pay 588, 834-35, 859, 915 

unemployment 918-19, 1029 

Insurrection, Easter Week 143, 159, 209, 

212-13, 2"5-i7. 222, 269, 313, 352, 467- 
69, 541-42. 5 16. 

of 1798 186 

provoked by English atrocities 232 

International Labor Conference 435 



Ireland Page 
Ireland, atrocities in exceed German in Bel- 
gium ix, 770-71, 785, 796, 822-23 

investigated. See under Labor Party, 
British; Society of Friends; Women's 
International League. 
facts suppressed by British cable and 

press 784-86, 787 

papers dare not publish affidavits 788 

memoranda on I 053-59, 1059-60 

See also Atrocities. 

birth rate 455 

British authority in broken down. ... 548-49, 973 

maintained by force 166-67, 520, 973, 

1051. 

renounced by local councils 44, 51, 155, 

168, 244-45, 345, 475, 724-25, 760, 1018-19 

unlawfully constituted 186, 486 

troops trained in 148, 544 

Church of 186, 194, 251 

disestablished 193 

conditions in growing worse 847 

conscription in 143, 544, 614, 759 

contributions to civilization. . .476-77, 851,1043 

cooperative commonwealth 163, 484-85, 

944-45- 

cost of war extracted from 946-47 

crime, absence of 9, 247, 248, 250, 357-58, 

378-79, 422-23, 460-61, 637-38, 904. 

depopulation of 450, 477-80, 486, 491, 498, 

devastation 126, 136, 477-79, 520, 604, 622, 

698, 715. 

worst since Cromwell 847 

economic blockade 579-84 

conditions 5, 45 1 

destruction 580-89 

exploitation of 266, 486, 936-37, 946-49, 

990. 

interests controlled by England 443-44, 

939-40. 

stagnation under English rule 936-38 

economically self-supporting 163, 236-7, 

490-91, 950, 962, 972. 

wealth taken in taxes by England 163-64, 

236-38, 486, 487-90, 491, 500-1, 729-30. 
945-52. 
education. See Education. 

England's best customer 169, 989, 1051 

English debt saddled on 235-36 

France preferred to Germany 232 

Government of 74, 77, 196 

able to relieve housing shortage 844 

aim of 499-500 

achievements of 167-69, 244, 475, 524, 

960, 971-73, 980-81, 998. 

America asked to recognize 302, 971 

bonds of 47, 164, 213, 335-36, 972, 1036 

breaks England's trade monopoly 966-67 

Cabinet. . .358-59, 519, 524, 971-72, 980, 1055 
Courts. See Courts. 
Dail Eireann. See Dail Eireanu. 
de facto.... 74, 167, 169, 241-42, 519-20, 524, 
608, 1055. 

elected 243, 1055, 1060 

established 41, 241-42, 353-55, 474-76, 

524, 545. £48, 1055. 

executive 524, 971-72 

financial support 47, 164, 213, 335-36, 

950, 972. 
Industrial Inquiry Commission ... 167, 584-85, 
980-85. 

outlawed by British 585 

judiciary. See Courts and Police, Repub- 
lican. 
leaders restrain people from retaliation. .702-3 

undivided 358-59 

Land Bank 167, 619, 959-60, 972. 

law and order maintained 45, 46, 128, 

697, 708-9, 793, 881, 886, 973, 977, 1006-7 
• See Dail Eireann. 

Ministry of Defense 649, 972 

Industry 972, 980 

Labor 132, 137, 972, 1000 

not pro-German 231-32 

See Cabinet above. 



1086 



Ireland Page 

only civil autiiority 45, 621, 972, 973 

outlawed by British Government 50, 169, 

243-44, 353-55- 621, 975-76, 979, 1051, 
1054. 

passports 868-69, 975 

prohibits exportation of food 239-40 

Provisional 243-44 

recognition of 302, 971, 97-, 974. '005 

relations with Germany 175, 231-32 

restricts emigration 868-69. 974~75 

revenues of 164, 621, 950 

successfully functioning 44, 169, 524, 

621, 954-55, 955-66, 971-73- 

supported by people 29-30, 59, 86, 154, 

160, 169. 337, 376, 456, 474-76, 500, 519, 
621, 624. 678, 712, 849, 882, 919-20, 973, 
1038-39, 1055. 

Supreme Council 335 

Unionists serve 524, 980, 982, 983-84 

harbors .168, 240, 244, 617 

best in Western Europe 962 

Cork harbor, embargoed by England 168, 

240, 619-20. 

excels Liverpool 963 

projected development by Irish boards .".964-65 

undeveloped by England 962-63, 964 

impoverished by cattle-raising 449, 936-38 

independence. See Independence and Free- 
dom. 
military occupation. Sec under Military. 

misgovernment of 385. 486, 499, 624, 946- 

52, 956. 
national consciousness, growth of in Ulster. 554, 
555, 1042-44. 

new./ 489-50, ioio, 1042-44 

natural resources, rich 480-81, 961-63 

undeveloped 170, 446-47, 461-65, 958, 

961-63. 

opportunity in England's difficulty 214 

oppression' justified by England 594-96 

population, decrease of 167, 450, 619, 936 

possible 962 

poverty 448-55. 495, 500 

causes of 448-5 1 , 936 

England responsible for 267 

effect on health, sanity, and literacy. . .454-55 

prosperity, falalcy of paper money 958-59 

revival of, 943-44: limited 453-54 

under Grattan's Parliament 228-29 

refuses to crush American Revolution 227 

religious question. See under Religions. 
right to secure aid from England's enemies. . 213- 
14. 231-32. 

sacrificed by British Empire 140, 167, 486 

schools. See Education. 

self-government, demand for 29. 30, 40-41. 

59, 86, 154, 160, 164, 337, 376, 456, 471- 
76, 500, 519, 621. 

cause of oppresion 40-1. 42 

development of 5, 44. 97 I_ 78 

dominion form of 139, 155. 540, 546. 

573, 607, 1037-38, 1039. 

England endeavors to paralyze 50, 168. 

726-27, 730-31. 979- 

military rule to suppress 4°, 42-43. 

164-65, 168, 353-54, 357. 606, 725-27. 
1001, 1051, 1053. 

solution for Irish qustion 138-39. M 1 " 

42, 485, 523, 538-40, 625, 849. 

sends relief ship to America 238, 338 

soul of always Republican 203, 208, 222-23 

confirmed by Easter Week 212-13, 541 

South, arms in defense 145, 205-6, 211, 64S 

concessions to Ulster 253, 612, io2<> 

industries compared with Ulster's 114. 1 y\ 

religious harmony in. See Religious Har- 
mony. 

solidly opposes home rule 846 

taxable capacity 489, 945-46, 950 

taxes drain wealth to England 163-64, 236- 

38, 486, 487-90, 500-1, 729-30, 945-52. 



Irish Page 
trade and commerce, annihilated by Eng- 
land 491-92, 587 

consular service 966-67, 972 

Director of 792 

free trade 228, 620, 938 

Irish Trade and Industry 619 

merchants, discrimination against. . .444, 492- 
93, 587. 

monopolized by England 966 

credit and industry controlled 443-44 

Republican Government breaks mon- 
opoly 966-67 

restricted by England 228, 240, 444, 486- 

87, 492-93, 619, 970. 

parcel post prohibition 587 

supplies cut off 587, 618 

trade balance 971, [051 

with America. See American Trade. 

with Continental Europe 966-67 

with England 169, 989, 1051 

See also Harbors, above. 

two governments in 519, 549, 606, 973 

urged to fight for small democracies 541, 

758, 848-50. 

vitality, low 454-55 

war 374, 524, 621-22, 808 

aggressive, renounced 1027 

on defenseless civilians 374, 711, 875-76, 

932, 934- 

on women and children 124, 133, 531, 

647, 712-13. 

state of, admitted by Lloyd George. . .202, 595 

struggle between two civilizations 944-45 

two lines of conflict 979 

wealth 163, 236-38, 962 

agriculture the basis 943-44 

drained by England in taxes. See Taxes 
above, 
by English banks and insurance com- 
panies 957-58 

of provinces, comparative 940-41 

See also Agriculture, Industries, Mines 
and Minerals, and Natural Resources, 
above. 
workers' commonwealth .... 159-60, 163, 484-85, 
1047. 1048. 

Irish Agricultural Organization Society 152, 

444-45, 584, 619, 994, 998, 1066. 

growth of 991 

investigates reprisals 995, 996 

non-political 985. 994, 995 

reliability 984-85 

atrocities. See Atrocities. 

Bulletin 16m, 505, 825, 1012, 1044 

chieftains 1 97~99 

Church 186. 193-94, 251, 1033-34 

Citizens' Army 212, 649 

Consul-General, testimony of 935~78 

consuls 966-67, 972 

Cooperative Meat, Ltd., suppressed 973". 

984-89. 
cooperatives battling British trusts. . .944-45. 990 

culture 333, 477, 5°o, 851, 1043 

declaration of independence 241-42, 258, 

469, 961. 

Education Act 191-93, 455, 458 

famine 454, 498, 937, 940 

made by England 187, 199, 477-78, 480 

Freedom 210 

history 185-86, 195. 221, 476-79, 596, 616 

Homestead ... .154, 172, 984, 985-89, 991-92. 997 

idealism 850 

importers taxed double port fees 492-93 

Independent. 580, 1063: suppressed 787 

Industrial Development Association 201, 

204, 212, 445-47, 584-85, 618, 619. 
industries. See Industries. 

Insurrection (1798) 185-86. 232,233 

issue: dominion home rule inadequate 139 

economic cleavage underlies 442-44, 457- 

58, 944-45, 990. 

independence sole solution 138-39, 141-42, 

337, 485, 523, 538-40, 625, 846, 850-51, 
1051. 



1087 



Irish Page 

military force English solution. .. 141, 474, 598 

of international concern 534, 848, 850-51 

right of self-determination demanded.... 849. 

850-51. 
labor. See Labor, Irish. 
language. See Gaelic Language. 
local government. See Councils and Local 

Government. 
merchants and farmers, discrimination 

against 444~45, 492-93. 5S7 

Pale 616 

Parliament 226—27, 236, 243—44, 

449, 460, 462, 485. 

Act of Union passed by fraud 233-35 

Grattan's Parliament 196-97, 227, 228 

suppressed (1801) 226-27 

See Dail Eireann and Ireland, Govern- 
ment of. 
people, endurance and patience 160-61, 

286-88, 300-1, 352-58, 606, 702-3, 711, 

1052, 1054. 
English attitude toward 127, 146, 170-71, 

399, 471, 521-22, 532, 591, 593, 595, 606, 

613-14, 821, 996. 
extirpation England's policy 477-80, 486, 

499, 1009. 
Home Rule unacceptable to. . 147, 845, 846, 966 

leaders restrain from retaliation 702-3 

never betray political refugees 392-93 

new national consciousness 849-50, 1010, 

1042—44. 

"poisonous insects" 471 

religious tolerance 252-54, 501-2 

self-control 76, 122, 134, 711, 714 

spirit 267, 300-1, 334-35, 337, 606, 652, 

661, 712, 850-51, 919-20, 1052, 1056. 
suffering 299-301, 337-38, 339, 589-90, 603. 

609-10, 647, 656, 698, 710, 715, 918-19, 

92S- 
unanimity for Republic. See under Re- 
public, below, 
prisoners refuse rescue by police 173, 

247, 709, 1007. 

Rebellion misnamed 185-86 

Republic 196, 645, 646 

America asked to aid 338, 340, 848, 851 

recognize 302, 97 1 

American Association for Recognition of.. 172 

attitude of ex-soldiers toward 758 

capitalistic opposition to 436-37, 555, 561, 

990. 
Consul-General of, 201, 935; testimony 

of 936-78 

desired by people. .. 29-30, 59, 166-67, 194-95. 

286-88, 596. 
established 41, 241-42, 353-55, 474-5, 5 2 4, 

545. 548, 1054, 1055. 
financed by people 47, 164, 213, 335-36, 

972, 1036. 

flag of 117, 375, 512, 691, 790, 882 

not interested in war 255, 1027 

opposition to by England economic. .. .457-58, 

990. 

by Ulster 178, 560-62 

position of Ulster in 253, 500-1, 612, 1026 

right to receive aid from Germany ... .218-14, 

231-32. 
unanimity of people for. .. .29-30, 59, 73, 86, 

222-24, 337, 436, 456, 474, 500, 519, 546. 

621, 624, 652, 661, 678, 712, 736, 850-51, 

882, 919-20, 1038-39, 1049, 1055. 

proved by elections 154-156, 223-25 

Volunteers declare for 207-8, 241-42 

without a daily paper 785 

witness refuses evidence if status be ques- 
tioned 463-64 

See also Independence and Ireland, Gov- 
ernment of. 

Republican Army 52, 76;!, 87, 335, 638 

795, 803, 1041. 

aided by Cumann na m'Ban 212, 628, 645 

armed warfare begins 212-13, 352-55 

arms secured. ... 90, 145, 206-7, 365, 592, 650, 

687-88, 777, 794-95, 806-7, >°54, io55- 



Judges Page 

attack police barracks 90, 373, 618, 650, 

794-95. 906-7. 
captured police released uninjured. 793-96, 907 

discipline 150, 173, 694-95, 702, 808-9 

independence declared by 208-9, 241-42 

MacCurtain, Lord Mayor, an officer 344 

MacSwiney, Lord Mayor, an officer 266, 

268, 274, 298. 
maintain order. ... 128, 173, 378, 651, 685, 697, 
708-9, 886, 1006-7. 

Martyrs' Plot 329-30, 801 

Minister of Defense 649, 971 

not a murder gang 793-96 

organization 353~54. 648-51, 972 

police killed by 372-73, 907 

secret service 258, 594 

strength of 353-54. 649, 650 

supported by people 375-76, 919-20 

uniform not worn 593, 649, 804, 808, 906 

proscribed 649-50, 805, 906 

Volunteers constitute 524, 649 

war activities 352-54, 374. 5i9> 621-22, 

649, 794-95, 806, 807-8. 

See also Volunteers, Irish. 

clubs wrecked and robbed. .... .638, 815, 816-18 

Courts. See Courts, Republican. 

election pledge 224 

Government. See Ireland, Government of. 

°f- 
leaders, character of. . .172, 432, 436-37, 449, 799 

attempts to murder 31, 16m, 638, 722, 

736-38, 777-7^, 854. 

imprisoned 21, 22, 24, 212, 218, 222, 

344-45, 356, 431, 469, 471, 483-84, 541- 
42, 628, 720-21, 755, 863, 1000, 1053, 1055 

murdered and executed 160, 16m, 222- 

23, 280-81, 341-42, 357-58, 467-69, 509- 
11, 541-42, 603, 633-35, 657-58, 721-22, 
738-40, 853-54, 861, 1053. 

pursued and harassed 39-43, 1 16-17, 

278-79, 282-83, 304-5, 430-31, 594, 7 JO, 
720-21, 734-35, 777~7&, 890-91, 984, 1005, 
1018, 1053, 1055. 

seized as hostages 803 

Loan 47, 164, 213, 33S-36, 972, 1036 

movement, background of 185-87 

not involved in religious issue 76, 1035 

police. See Police. Republican. 

Party, assumes administrative duties 723-24 

birth of 207-8 

distinguished from Sinn Fein 196-97, 201, 

212-13. 
wins Irish elections. See under Elec- 
tions. 
Republicanism, attempt to suppress by 

force 17, 141, 474, 598 

growth of 195-96, 572, 651, 661, 827, 

845-46, 1038-39, 1046-47. 

in Belfast 172, 55o, 564-65, 567, 845-46 

Republicans, Parnell works with 188 

schools. See Education. 

soldiers, Britain betrays pledge to 758 

Trade and Industry 619 

See Ireland, Trade and Commerce, above. 

Women, United 619 

Women's International League 53 '-532, 979 

statement of 1059-52 

Islands of Aran 83, 473. 49i 

Italy, 627 ; Irish consul in 966 

J 

Jamison, Rev. William 96 

Jews, freedom from persecution 253, 501-2 

in Cork 251, 640 

non-sectarian school 1033 

raid on, 742; woman dies from fright. .742-43 

Tohnson, Harold, testimony of 882-86 

Johnson, Lieutenant-Colonel 43° 

Johnson, Thomas 619, 980, 1022, 1025, 1028, 

1049- 

accused of Bolshevism 1047 

character I0 48 

Judges, British 47 2 



1088 






Junkers Page 

given white gloves 248, 904 

ostracized in Cork 245-46 

superseded by courts-martial. ... 154, 330, 469, 
542, 622, 763, 1044, 1060. 

Republican Arbitration Court 1011-12 

in constant danger of arrest 732 

Land Court 1006, 1012 

Junkers, English 143 

Juries. See Coroners' Junes and Courts. 
Justice, administered by Republican Courts. 86, 
167, 607. 

English, perversion of 154, 177, 180, 205-6, 

2°7» 472, 493, 1044)1. 1053. 

Ouaid case 248-49 

of Ireland's cause 851, 935, 1052 

supplanted by arson and anarchy 35-36 

See Courts and Law a>id Order. 

I 
K 

Kaiser, German 204, 214, 547 

Kane, Mrs., home burned 852-53 

Stephen, trades union official, beaten. .. 1062-63 

Kanturk, Mallow sends milk to 927 

murder at 766 

Keane, Sir John, D.S.0 986, 988, 989 

Kelley, Rev '. 83 

Kellock, Harold, Publicity Secretary to Com- 
mission viii 

Kelly, Alderman Thomas 493, 1000 

Kelly, Captain, tortures prisoners 780-84 

Kenny, Michael, attempted murder 1063 

Kent, Eamon, signed declaration of inde- 
pendence, 242 ; executed 468-69 

Kenworthy, Lt. Commander 325, 538, 601 

Cork corporation protests to 839 

Keogh, Lieutenant, tortures prisoners 780-83 

Kerry, County 138, 376, 385, 390, 421, 422, 

665, 715. 

captured marines released uninjured 795 

Coroners' inquests suppressed 769-70 

Kerry Row raided and wrecked 83, 136, 170, 

520. 
Kilbeggan, captured police released uninjured. 794 

Kilcommon, creamery destroyed 387 

partially wrecked by police 823 

sacked 823 

Kildare, County 395 

hay ricks burned 580 

land problem 498 

Quakers in 502 

trops refuse to quell Ulster rebellion 145 

Kildorrery, murder in 813 

shot up and sacked 813, 824 

Kilfinane, captured police released 795 

Kilkenny, 138; coal mines 170, 446, 497 

mayor seized as hostage 803 

troops in 143 

Kill, town, wrecked by police 824 

Killaloan 421 

Killaloe 373 

Killarney, 73; hotel commandeered, 72; raid 

on convent 72 

Killea, creamery destroyed 824 

Killings. See Murder, Police, Killing of, and 

Shooting. 
Killmallock, cooperative creamery looted and 

destroyed .' 992 

farmers terrorized 988 

sacked by police 823 

Killorglin, houses wrecked 825 

Kilmuth, murder at 785 

Kiltimagh, captured police released 795 

King, Mrs. Agnes B., testimony of 120-37 

referred to 173 

King, Joseph, M. P 467 

King Street atrocities 1053 

Kingstown 121, 250 

Kinsale, partially sacked 823 

Knight, Hon. C. L 182 

Knockfune, cooperative creamery destroyed. . . 992 

Knights of Columbus 70, 75 

Knocklong, creamery wrecked 64, 824 

Knocknacurra, torture of Hales and Harte. .780-84 



Labor Page 

Knutsford jail 469 

Krumm, killing of, in Galway 83-84, 130-31, 

161-62, 409, 410-11, 412, 603. 



Labor, British, contributes to Irish workers' 

relief 566-67 

cooperates with American Commission 5 

Council of Action fails to act 320 

duplicity of Mr. Thomas 320-22 

Irish branches separating from 1020-21 

Party, Commission to Ireland 18, 19, 114, 

572, 7/6, 784. 

investigation of Cork tire convicts crown 

forces 836-38 

demand for impartial inquiry ignored.... 839 

report of 593", 746>t, 837-39 

committed to self-determination (for 

Ireland) 572-73, 608-9, 1021 

comprises workers of hand and brain.... 534 

imperialism in 608-9, I021 

leaders oppose Government policy 601 

peace plan indorsed by Irish labor 1026 

promotes peace with Ireland. ... 537, 572, 1047 

Portsmouth Labor Congress 320-22 

refuses action to end MacSwiney imprison- 
ment 322-22 

refuses to handle munitions for Poland.... 320, 
581-82, 895, 1024. 

similar action for Ireland discussed 897 

Labor, Irish, accused of Bolshevism 1047-48 

affection for James Larkin 1003-4 

arbitration boards, Republican 972, 1000-1 

Belfast 157. '74, 175-76 

difficult position of leaders 559-60 

Expelled Workers' Committee. ... 550, 566-67, 
S69, 571-72, 1049-50. 

Nationalist workers expelled 157, 174-75. 

176, 180, 555-57- 1050. 

Socialism in 1 049-50 

Vigilance Committees 558 

wages, low 157, 439. 440, 447. 553. 561 

cheap, caused by "cow lots" 448-49 

child labor, exploited 458 

laws lax 455, 458 

scandalous wages 553 

unschooled children to supply 55 2- 53 

cohesive tendency of ..158, 434. 435 

compels release of hungry strikers. . 160, 1023 

demands industrial democracy i59 _ 6o 

hiring fairs ..454. 458 

manufacturers promote religious agitation to 

divide 157, 178, 254-55, 434~35, 436. 

557-58. 

meetings prohibited 46, 559-60 

migration to England 448-49, 613 

Ministry of 972 

National L T nion of Railwaymen. . 896, 1021, 1024 

officials beaten 1062-63 

forced to political action 1021-22 

robbed 775-76, 1063 

socialistically inclined 1022, 1048 

organization of 46, 115, 437-38, 613 

in Belfast 157. 553-55, 557 

wages increased by 434, 438-39 

Party, Belfast members expelled from 

work 556 

control of Ulster Parliament feared 555 

Cork Convention 1 55-60 

election successes 29-30, 93-94, i54 _ 55. 

225, 550. 555- 

offices raided 1025, 1027 

political question paramount 441, 1021-22, 

1048. 

refuses to handle war munitions 89, 159-60, 

168, 582, 589, 894-97, 1024, 1025-26. 

action rescinded 896-97, 1027-29 

representation in Dail Eireann wanted 1049 

separating from English unions 1020-21 

social legislation for 952, 956, 972 

Socialism in 1022, 1048-49, 1049-50 

solvent for political and religious preju- 
dices 435-36, 553-55 



1039 



Lahinch Page 

supports Republic 18, 46-47, 439-40, 895 

Trades Congress, 980, 1048; indorses peace 

plan 1 026 

renounces aggressive war 1027 

supports munitions strike 1025-26 

Transport Workers' Union. .. .20, 115, 157, 439, 
613, 619, 775, 1001, 1020, 1022, 1024. 

hall burned 826 

meeting broken up 46 

organize peasant workers 1010-1050 

unemployment, suffering from 589-90, 610, 

656, 842-43, 918-19. 

wages and standard of living 429, 438-39, 

45o-i, 454, 553, 561, 565, 613, 1004, 1048, 
1050. 

workers' cottages built 942 

women workers, living conditions 451, 565 

wages 429-30, 447, 45°, 553. 561, 1003, 

1004. 
Union, .979, 1 00 1, 1003; organization 

of 1 001-2 

Lahinch, 621; killings and burnings, 521, 

602-3 ; wrecked 520-824 

Land Acts 481, 936, 941, 1014 

annual payments under 942, 953 

benefits of 238-40, 590, 944 

Gladstone Act. 454 

interest rates 942 

money advanced not a gift. 240-41, 941-42, 948 

opposed by Unionists 943 

rural conditions still bad 453~54. 

494-97, 1005-6, 100S. 1014. 

secured by force 238—40, 942 

Wyndham Act 238-39, 454 

Bank, 167, 619, 997; organization and opera- 
tion, 959-60, 972. 

Commission, Republican 962, 978 

Compulsory Tillage Act discriminatory .. .469-70 
Congested Districts Board, 494-97, 1014; 

duplicity of 1010 

Courts, Republican. .. .961, 974, 1005-8, 1011-12, 
1013-14. 

cooperative development of 494, 960 

fertility 459, 481, 495, 1008 

League 238 

litigation stopped by Dail Eireann . . .974, 1005-6 

Purchase Law 470 

problem 167, 494-95, 499, 1009-n 

alien landlordism 238-39, 240-41, 443, 

937 _ 38, 960-61, 1009. 

made by England 1 009 

solved by Land Bank 960 

riots 1 005-8 

averted by Dail and Land Courts 1005-6, 

1007-8, 1009, 1 016. 

cattle driving 469, 472, 588, 1006 

causes 1010-11 

occur where Land Acts are inoperative. .. 1008 

undivided estates 494-96, 497-98, 1008, 

1010, 1014. 

untilled 469-70, 497-99 

Wars 237, 1009-10 

Lane, Miss Ellie, affidavit 750-51 

rape attempted 750-5 1 

Langhorne, County Inspector 384 

Larkin, James 216, 1020 

affection of workers for 1 003-4 

organizes Citizens' Army 649 

Larkin, Sergeant, assaults American citizen.. 790 

Larne, gun-running 145, 175, 206-7, 54 1 , 607 

Law and order 9, 143, 355, 

378-79, 422-23, 460-61. 

British 143, 150-52, 165, 178, 

245-49, 250, 609, 624, 638, 987-89, 995. 

an illusion 160, 973 

partisan administration 563-64, 606 

police force not needed 423-24 

love of Irish people for 999 

maintained by Republican authorities. .. .45, 46, 

128, 172-73. 378, 475, 524. 651, 685, 

694-95, 697, 708-9, 793, 881, 886, 973, 

977. 1006-7. 

See also Crime, Courts, and Police. 

Law, Bonar 78, 1056 



Local Gov't Act Page 

called upon to stop murders 766 

leader of Ulster rebellion 144 

law, international, violated by British Govern- 
ment 260-62 , 

486-87, 766, 787, 808, 1059. 
Lawless, James, children driven from home.. 104 

funeral restricted ; 1 17-18 

murdered ". 1 05-7, 1058 

lawlessness 141 

created by British .. 151, 609, 624, 637-8, 661-62 

in Ulster 541 

League of Nations 1 052 

Leap, town, sacked bv police 812, 824 

Lecky, W. E. II ' 235, 483 

Leeds, demonstrations in 532 

Lehand, James, murdered 813 

Leinster, Province 92, 466 

wealthiest in Ireland 940-41 

Leitrim, County, burnings in 898 

Lendrum, Captain, killed 602 

Lenin, Nikolai 1 047 

Lewis guns 122, 123, 177 

Liberal alliance 190 

Government, English 144 

See also Free Liberals. 

liberals, definition of 437 

lead Republican movement 436-37 

Limerick, absence of crime 460-61 

coroners' inquests suppressed 769-70 

curfew law 597 

destruction in 136, 585 

burning of hay ricks 580, 583-84, 590 

houses 824 

cooperative industry destroyed 585 

indiscriminate firing and burning 63-64, 

520, 580. 

drunken police 165 

Industrial Inquiry Commission in 982 

industries crippled 581 

Mayor excluded from City Hall 982 

murders 60-62, 160, 769, 1022 

raids 82, 83 

religious harmony 606-7, 608 

services interrupted 82 

shot up by police 823 

soldiers in 71 

suffering of people 589-90 

unemployment 589 

war zone around 70 

Limerick Junction 70, 71 

Lincoln prison 275, 392 

Lind, Mr., insincere apologist 175 

Lisburn 549, 621 

burned by Orangemen 150, 570 

devastation in 520, 570-71, 899 

killing of Swanzy 150, 570 

refugees from 563, 571-72 

Lisdoonvarna 58, 136 

farms burned 603 

Lismore, sacked by military 823 

Listowel, charge of Divisional Commissioner 

to police 66, 385-86, 1057 

drunken Black-and-Tans 670 

Lisvarrinane, feis suppressed 398-99 

literacy, effect of poverty on 454-55 

Liverpool 667 

box contractors 445-46 

port fees extorted from Irish importers. .492-93 

Local Government Act 168, 246, 724 

Board, English 13, 724-25, 742, 844, 966 

appoints coroners 764-65 

"grants" decreased by Parliament 948 

taken from Irish taxes 725, 1017 

withdrawn to cripple public bodies.... 168, 
586, 726-27, 730-31, 1014. 

now idle 1016 

bodies, Irish 168, 1015 

Britain seeks to paralyze 168, 726-27, 

730-31, 979. 1015, 1017. 

pursues and arrests officials 20-21, 

24. 39, 43. n6, 356, 431, 720-21, 734-36, 
890-91, 984, 1005, 1055. 

withholds "grants" 168, 586, 

724-25, 955, 1014, 1018-19. 



1090 



Logue Page 

effect of 727-28, 843-44, 1019 

on disabled ex-soldiers 758-59, 760 

on hospitals and asylums 168, 

727-28, 1016. 

from Republican counties only 760 

character of men on 799 

declare allegiance to Dail Eireann 44, 51, 

155, 168, 244-45, 345, 475. 724-25. 760, 
1018-19. 

ninety per cent favor Republic 29-30, 

IS4«, 156)!. 244. 

duties 723-24, 965-66 

legally constituted 43 

reforms and economies effected 976, 1019 

successfully functioning 44, 727, 

730. 954-55, 1016, 1018. 

Minister of 972 

officials. See Public Officials. 

taxation (rates) .. 561, 562, 728, 731, 942, 954-56 
paid to Republican bodies. ... 731-32, 734, 954 

prove Ireland self-supporting 954-56 

See also Councils, Self-Government. 

Logue, Cardinal 223 

London 141, 184, 204, 271, 303, 446 

American ambassador 536-37 

Bridge 256 

Daily Chronicle 615, 968, 969, 1056 

Daily Express 1056 

Daily Herald .249-50, 533~34 

Daily Mail 615, 1056 

Daily Nezvs and Leader 533-34. 537 

Nation 533, 601, 1055 

Pall Mall Gazette 1056 

Post 1056 

Times 173, 519, 615, 1064 

Londonderry 138, 476, 621, 896 

a beleaguered city 572 

Protestant population 176 

Republicans win city 572 

riots 476 

Unionists win county 760 

Londonderry, Lord 143, 144 

Longford County, coroners' inquest sup- 
pressed 769-70 

Looting, of Cork City Hall 754, 791, 982 

of homes 514, 623, 744-46, 748, 749, 753, 

756, 779, 812, 813, 1067-68. 

of public houses 100, 114, 177, 367-68, 503, 

511, 563, 587, 670, 675, 812, 857, 910, 933 

of shops, stores and creameries 39-40, 81, 

113, 666, 722-23, 747-48, 773, 778, 813, 
838, 842, 858-59, 923-24, 934, 992, 994, 
1045, 1067-68. 

Lordon, Miss Mary, assaulted 810-11, 813 

Lorries 898 

ambushed 605, 779, 789, 803-4, 806, 

828, 838. 

purpose to get arms 806-7 

described 59 

manned by drunken soldiers 889 

terrorize city streets 72, 121, 123, 521, 604, 

662, 773-74, 828, 883, 892. 

country roads 38, 59, 137, 455-56, 503-4, 

516, 522, 867, 1063. 

used to break munitions strike 896-97 

Loughmore, creamery destroyed 824 

Louth, County, coroners' inquest suppressed. 769-70 

Louvain, 827; burning of Cork surpasses 796 

Lovett, Dean Robert Morss 5» 

Lowndes, County Inspector, 398-99; drunk, in 

command of raid 399 

Lucas, General .- 173 

captured 380, 383, 795 

escapes 795 

orders Sinn Feiners summarily shot 380 

Lucy, Christopher, murder of 813 

Lukens, Lord '. . . .495, 496 

Lyburn, Prof. E. St. John 962 

Lynch, Diarmuid, food controller 240 

Lynch, Rev. Francis C 1063 

Lynch, Jack, murdered 86, 137, 519, 622 

Lynch, Mr., K. C 641, 659, 660 

Lynch, Michael, murdered 812 

Lynch, Patrick, murdered 60-62, 160, 769 



MacDonagh Page 

Lynn, Dr. Kathleen 159 

Lysaght, Edward 1064 

burned out by Crown forces 585, 1064 

on the run 1045 

starts cooperative industry 585 

raided, robbed, and wrecked 1045, 

1064, 1067-68. . 
statement on murder of Connor Clune . . . 1045, 
1064-67. 
Lysaght, Mrs. Katherine, statement of 1067-68 

M 

Macaulay, Mrs., shop looted 675 

Macaulay, Thomas 256 

MacBride, Madam Gomme 430 

MacCoole, Finn 211 

MacCracken, Irish patriot 186 

MacCurtain, Lord Mayor Thomas 

administrative genius 346-47, 348, 641, 739 

business, ability 344, 345, 346, 629-30 

British seek to ruin 630, 636 

managed by sister-in-law 627-28, 631 

character 344, 642, 660, 739 

election of 278, 286, 309, 345, 642-43, 721 

esteemed by opponents 347-48, 641 

family 281, 344, 628, 633, 634, 642 

effect of murder upon 628-29, 634-35 

effect of raids and terrorism 632-33 

friendship with Terence MacSwiney . . .278, 280, 

343-44- 
home looted, 644; repeatedly raided. . .361, 630- 
32, 636, 644, 656. 

imprisoned 344-45, 628, 631 

literary achievements 642 

murder of 280-81, 341-42, 343, 359-65. 

595, 633-35, 636, 657-58, 738-40. 

armed patrols surround house 350, 

359-61, 639. 
begins assassination of public officials. .. 352, 
357-58, 721-22. 

begins disorders in Cork 698 

cloaked by hypocracy 79 

evidence convicts police. .350-51, 359-65, 639 

followed by military raid 361, 636 

funeral tributes 640, 661 

household unarmed 351-52 

inquest 640-41, 763 

jury- impaneled by police 363-64 

indicts Government and police 80, 

362-63, 767. 

summons ignored by Lord French 365, 

659, 660. 

Lloyd George responsible for 80, 319 

police persecute inquest witnesses 645 

records juggled to conceal 350-51 

shoot comrade for refusing to aid... 636-37 

shot for 149-50, 570 

shot in wife's presence 281, 349 _ 5°, 

633-35, 657-58. 
testimony of Miss Mary MacSwiney con- 
cerning 343-365 

of Miss Anna Walsh, 653-664; of Miss 

Susanna Walsh 627-653 

warning of 149-50, 739 

office sacked and burned 643 

officer in Republican Army 344 

on the run 72 1 

popularity 347, 641, 660-61 

started Boy Scouts 663 

MacCurtain, Mrs., attempt to murder 644 

effect of murder upon 628 

effect of raids and terrorism 633 

husband murdered in presence 281, 349-50, 

634-35, 657-58. 

in Gaelic League 629 

sympathy for expressed by Crown counsel . . 364 

jury 363 

people of Cork 641 

Protestants and Jews 640 

MacDermott, John 216, 242, 258 

executed 468-69 

MacDonagh, Joseph, executed 468-69 

signed Irish Declaration nf Independence.. 242 



1091 



Mac Donald Page 

MacDonald, Ramsey 538 

Robert, affidavit of 793 

Dr. William, Secretary to Commission .... viii, 
5, 161, 533, 602. 

MacGearailt, Seamus 745, 748, 751, 753, 756, 

773, 774, 779- 

affidavit of 777~78 

MacHale, Archbishop of Tuam 193, 195 

Mackay, Mrs., shop wrecked, customers as- 
saulted 706-7 

MacNeil, Eoin 211, 216 

MacPherson, Ian 361, 471 

indicted for murder 80, 363 

Macready, Sir Nevil 164,-993 

appeal to protect Mallow ignored 909 

called upon to stop murders 766 

denies thefts by raiders. . '. 746 

given free hand in Ireland 1056-58 

Macroom, ambush at 882 

MacSweenev, Father, assaulted and terrorized. 800, 
801-2. 

MacSwiney, Annie 292*1 

John Terence 184, 199, 200 

Lord Mayor Terence 79, 83, 130, 132, 162 

anonymous letters of abuse to 317 

arrested 219, 268-69, 270, 272, 273, 275, 

278, 279, 283, 306, 719, 973. 
body secured with difficulty ... .298-99, 327-29 
British Labor gives only sympathy. .. .320-22 

character 279-80, 291 

courtship interrupted by imprisonment .. 268-69 

dare not live at home 278-79, 

281-82, 283, 304-5. 

deatli of 265, 327, 484, 607, 650, 681 

effect on Irish cause 313 

England's purpose in 233 

mark of respect for forbidden 681-82 

delirium 292-93, 323-24 

deportations. . .269, 270-71, 275, 284, 289, 310 

education 200-1, 279-80 

elected Lord Mayor of Cork. .276-77, 280, 281 

English propaganda against 263, 295, 306, 

307-8, 312-13, 314-15, 316, 318. 
evidence against manufactured. ... 306-8, 310 

faith in Republican cause 286-88 

family history 183-84, 197-99 

spirit 1 99-200 

first sees baby in prison 274-75 

funeral of 420 

procession 576 

restrictions on 118 

guard of honor imprisoned 80 

hunger strikes: first 272-73 

last 284/?, 301, 308, 1036 

insidious appeals to take food 316-17 

Lloyd George refuses to save life.... 319 
never fed by relatives. .. .295, 314-15, 316 

prison doctors, attitude of 289-90 

313-14, 3i6-i7- 

feed while unconscious 295, 

297, 301, 324. 
threaten forcible feeding. .. .291, 322-23 

suffering 284, 291-3 301, 312 

imprisonments 219, 243, 268-69, 272, 273, 

274, 275, 279, 284, 289. 

inquest 298, 327 

interment in Martyrs' Plot 330 

joins Volunteers 211 

literary achievements 279-80 

founds Fianna Fail 210— 11 

poems 200—1 

marriage 269-7 1 

not a Sinn Feiner 197, 201 

officer in Republican Army.. 266, 268, 274, 298 

place in family 184 

purpose of sacrifice 284, 290-91, 301 

raids On home 277, 281-82, 307, 310 

release, fictitious protest against 263 

succeeds murdered Mayor MacCurtain. . . 278, 
280. 

tolerance toward opponents 309-10 

treatment in prison 270, 273-74, 291-92 

trial by court-martial 284-86, 308-9 

speech at 286-88, 308-9 



Marines Page 

Volunteers, dying trust in 318 

Maura, affection for father 279 

born 269, 274 

first sees father in prison 274— "75 

picture of 301 

Miss Mary, arrested 218-19 

at Brixton prison 31 1-27 

dismissed from anglicized school 220-2 

dum-dum bullet fired at 80 

efforts to save brother's life 319, 320-22 

exhibits submitted 1053, 1059 

forcibly ejected from prison 326-27 

founds school for girls 333-34, 776 

homes raided 218, 307, 310 

refused admission to dying brother. .. .295-96, 
324-27. 

scrupulous accuracy 311 

sees brother before deportation 310 

testimony of 183/?, 278, 303 ft, 394 

murder of Lord Mayor MacCurtain. .. .343- 
365, 63911. 

Mrs. Muriel, a Republican convert 266-68 

asked to end husband's strike 289-90 

final half-hour with husband 296-97 

forbidden admission to dying husband. 293-95, 
301. 

use of telephone 296 

health shattered by persecution of hus- 

band 303-5 

learns Irish language 276-77 

marriage in internment camp 271 

prison relief work 270 

rarely saw husband 271, 274 

reconciled to husband's death. .. .288-89, 290 

sees husband in prison 271, 274 

testimony of 265-277 

vigil in Brixton prison 289-97 

Of the Battle Axes 198 

Peter 184, 294 

dare, not sleep at home 891 

testimony of 889-92 

Madden, Miss, assaulted 855 

Magistrates, favor independence 155 

receive white gloves 248, 904 

resident 51 

resignation of 51, 155, 166-67, 246, 905 

Magna Charta 770 

Magner, Canon, murdered 800, 814, 1042 

Mahoney, Constable, killed 666 

Malicious Injuries Act 1015, 1017 

claims awarded under 992, 993-94 

Britain deducts from local grants. .. 1015, 1018 

people unable to pay 993~94 

Republican councils refuse to pay. . . . 1017-18 
levies costs of war upon victims. . .585, 587, 623, 
921-22, 996, 1017. 

Mallon, J. J 53 8 

Mallow, 256, 579, 621; burning of 618, 910-20 

milk condensery destroyed 590, 618, 913-16, 

918, 987. 
peaceful and prosperous before burning. . .903-4 
pledge of protection to town broken. . .908-10, 
916-17. 

population 893, 903 

repression, raids and arrests 905-6 

Republicans win election 894 

volunteer firemen save town 925 

aided by Constabulary 925 

fired upon by military 911, 928 

Malone, Dudley Field, of counsel 343ft 

Manchester, American consul hinders coming 

of witnesses 534 _ 37 

demonstrations in 532, 548, 576-77 

Guardian 533, 534, 537, 577, 1044/1 

Man-hunting. See On the Run and Sinn Fein 
Leaders. 

Manly, Basil M., of consul 429/F, 503-5, 

506-16, 552, 578, 595, 601-2, 620, 664ft. 
852ft, 893ft, 1030, 1038, 1040, 1042, 1047- 
50, 1059. 

Mansion House, 243; raid on 430-31 

Mannix, Archbishop 311 

Marines, Admiralty, 706-7; Black-and-Tan 

fires at 708 



1092 



Markets Page 

disperse raiders 007 

khaki, brutal assaults by 706-7 

Markets and fairs suppressed 387-88, 424, 

543. 58o, 715, 1054, 10SS. 1060. 
Markievicz, Countess, 132, 307; imprisoned, 

663; Minister of Labor 132. U7 

Marshall, Rev. George F 455 

Martial law, in Dublin 542, 1027 

to apply to all Ireland 66 

zone, 769-70, 1027-28; devastation worst in 847 

Martin, C. E 45'9. 990 

Martin, Hugh, 171; life threatened 50-51. 

172, 578, 601-2. 

Martin, John P., testimony of 6, 69-75 

Martine, Ex-Senator James 182 

Mary II, Queen, persecutions of 252, 502 

plantations in Ireland 616 

Massacre, Bachelors Walk 145,-207 

Croke Park 300, 593H, 863-67 

King Street 1053 

officially ordered 380 

planned by England . 89 

Masterman, C. F. G..,. •• 601 

Maurer, James IT., member of the Commis- 
sion vi 1 

selected on Mission to Ireland 5" 

Maxwell, Genera! 219 

Mayflower 235 

Mayo, County, coroners' inquest suppressed. 769-70 

land trouble in 494-98, 1006-7, 1008, 1010 

McCan, Pearse, death in prison ....483-84 

McCarthy, Rev. F., assaulted and terrorized. .801-2 

McCarthy, James, murdered 3 1 

McCarthy, John G., affidavit 791-92 

McCooey, P. J., home bombed 810 

McGurk, John, affidavit, 818; home wrecked 

and burned ■ 818 

Meat packing industry, crippled by England.. 581 

suppressed 984-89 

Meath, County, land problem 498 

Melland, Miss •" 620 

Mercantilism 585 

Mewhort, Miss M 549. 620 

Mexico, American soldiers in 596 

Micks, Mr., Congested Districts Board 496 

Mid-Cork, Terence MacSwiney elected from.. 276 
Middleton, Lord, supports dominion home rule 607 

Midleton, ambush at 1058 

Buckley brothers shot... 89, 688-89, 767, 768-69 

houses ordered burned 1058-59 

shot up by police 823 

soldier killed 7 2 

Militarism, English people oppose 615 

root of Irish trouble 141. 598 

Military aid firemen 838. 914 

. ambushed 605, 666, 6-8, 838, 914 

animals killed by 59-60, 672, 714 

arbitrary powers of 67, 873-74 

assaults on women 381, 811, 855, 1041 

bayonet prisoners to death 766, 769 

beating and flogging of civilians. See Beat- 
ing and Flogging. 
burning of houses, shops, and factories. . . 622, 
666, 812, 825-29, 910-14, 915, 923-24, 928 

boy soldiers 565-66, 596, 618, 622 

commandeer houses 62, 66, 72, 78, 126, 

148, 982. 

creameries destroyed 387, 586, 618, 673, 

9i3-!4, 915. .99?. 

coroners' juries indict for murder 61, 766 

cost of 591 

discipline, farcical 922 

lack of 672-73, 914, 1958 

drinking and drunkenness 83, 367, 368, 369, 

399, 566, 622, 675, 700-1, 812, 814. 892, 
910, 914, 933, 1040, 1041-42. 

duties 673 

force, English solution for Irish problem.. 141, 
474- , , „ 

forced position of 170, 565-66, 593, 597, 

624, 689. 

funerals dominated by 117, 374~75. 5' 2, 

802-3. 
inquests, supplant civil 50, 69, 80, 763, 861 



Morgan Page 

murderers to judge themselves 770 

reports not made public 841, 861 

killing of 618, 778, 805, 1027, 1045 

looting by 367, 666, 779, 812, 923-24, 933'. 

987. 

misconduct of 126, 381-83, 811, 1040, 1041 

murders by 60-62, 86-87, 145. 593". 661- 

62, 766, 768, 769, 811-13, 864-65, 866-67, 
929-30, 1041, 1042, 1045, 1054, ioss. 
1064-67. 

attempted 768-69, 771-73 

concealed by falsehood. . .373-74, 593)1, 767- 
69. 773' 813, 931, 1065-67. 

number of 599-600. 770-71 

prevented by 170-71, 598, 662-63 

occupation 10, 41, 166-67, 898 

cost of 591, 897-98, 950 

demoralized 624 

number of police, 142, 1057; of troops.. 148. 
59i, 594. 898, 935, 973. 

tyranny of 1055 

officers torture hunchback 778-79 

psychology 593, 624 

raids by 123, 277, 361, 384, 430-31. 604-5, 

636, 656, 703, 705, 734-36, 744-46, 754-55. 
755-56, 757, 777, 778, 791-92, 811, 901-2, 
929, 987, 1001, 1041. 
religious services interrupted, 82; invaded. 395-96 

robbery by 492-93, 514, 675, 745, 747-4S, 

754-65, 812, 871, 875-77, 987. 

rule in Ireland 77, 148, 150-52, 52J. 624, 

847, 898. 

extent of 147-48, 59'-92 

purpose to crush self-government 40, 42. 

164-65, 168, 353-54, 357. 606, 726-27, 
1001, 1051, 1053. 

sack and shoot up towns 812-13, 910-14 

. terrorism 622, 773-74, 812-13, 910, 912, 91;. 

917-18, 919-20, 930-31, 988, 1041, 1053-5S 

unpunished for outrages 689, 814, 922 

Milk, babies deprived of 405-6, 591 

condensary, burning of 590, 913-14. 918 

inhumane consequences 590 

production, inquiry into 980 

report on 167-68, 982, 983 

wasted by destruction of creameries. . .64, 339, 
591. 927, 944. 
See also Creameries. 
Miltown-Malbay, 520; houses burned, 602-3; 

sacked by police 824 

Milling industry, crippled by England 581 

Millwood home raided. .685-86, 689-92, 699,703-5 

Mines and Minerals . '. 958 

coal. See Coal, Irish. 

Industrial Commission inquiry into 980-S1 

metals 961-62 

peat 467, 961. 980 

undeveloped by England. ... 170, 446-47, 461-65. 
958, 961-63. . 

Minimum Wage Law, not applied 447 

Ministry of Labor, Irish 137, 44S 

Mitchel, John 186 

Mitchell, Mason, American consul 876-77, 890 

Mob, Belfast, 177, 476, 520, 555-56. 

Dublin • • ■ 145 

Mohan, Mrs. Michael, American flag in- 
sulted 685-86 

raids on home 685-86, 689-92 

testimony of 684-98 

Mohill, captured soldiers released. ..._.. 795 

Monivea, captured police released uninjured.. 794 

Monteagle, Lord 996 

Moore, Sir Norman 290, 298, 327 

Moore, Colonel, saves Darrell Figgis 982-83 

Morgan, Denis, arrested and deported 20-21 

elected chairman of council 24 

home shot up, family terrorized 14 

effect of on family 19. 38-39 

death of son 39 

hunger strike of 24-25 

imprisoned without trial 21 

invited by Commission 43 _ 5.> 

"on the run" 39. 43 

refused parole to see dying son 22 



109c 



Morley Page 

testimony of 6ff 

thrown into "punishment cell" 24-25 

Morley, Rev. Michael 5 ' - 

arrest 5 1 4 

home raided and robbed 513-14 

friend beaten 514 

signed statement 513-14 

Motor transport, restrictions on... 71, 340, 679-80, 

io2 5- 

cause economic crisis 58 1-82 

motor cars confiscated or wrecked 583, 680 

permits denied Republicans 582 

Mountjoy, Baron 337 

Mountjoy prison 93, 160, 470-71, 473, 1036 

labor compels release of hunger strikers.. 160, 
1023. 
Mount Talbot, captured policemen released... 795 

Mulcahy, William, shooting of 815 

Mullingar 473 

Minister, Province 466, 494 

"Murder Gang," British 740, 777, 778, 

Irish 336, 383, 622, 624, 1028, 1064 

disproved by release of captured police. .. 793-96 

Murders 351-55, 478, 651 

attempted 380, 381, 411-12, 427, 602, 638, 

658, 669, 685, 722, 7/1-73. 777-7%, 793. 
815, 854, 1063. 

Belfast attitude toward 606 

by Crown forces 85, 125, 542, 543, 593H, 

595, 618, 621-22, 654, 664, 713, 785, 797, 
799-800-1, 811-13, 815, 994, 1040, 1042, 
1053-55, 1057- r , , 

by military 60-62, 86-87, '45- 593". 661-62, 

766, 768, 769, 811-13, 864-65, 866-67, 
929-30, 1041, 1042, 1045, 1054, 1055, 
1064-67. 

by police and Black-and-Tans 3i~33. 105- 

106, 119-120, 130-135, 503-4, 509-'!, 668, 
766, 774-75, 814, 853-54, 892, 1055. 

of hunchback 125 

of Lord Mayor MacCurtain. .. .79-80, 280-81, 
341-42, 343, 359-65, 633-35. 738-40. 

of policemen 262, 383, 401, 636-37 

coroners' juries render verdict against 

Crown forces 31-33. 61, 79-80, 362-63 

exceed German record in Belgium 770-71 

glossed over 1 79-80 

guilty officers promoted 774~75. '053 

incitement to 66-67, 380, 385-86, 474, 591, 

592, 596, 1057- 

indiscriminate 650, 771-73. 774~75. 800-1, 

864-67, 930, 1053- 

inquiry into suppressed 50, 69, 80, 168, 

409, 603. 

in 179S • • 233 

number of .... 599-600, 770-71, 1040, 1042, 1060 

on the increase 1042 

officially ordered 66-67, 352, 380. 385-86, 

1057- 

of children 661, 1040 

of ex-soldiers 661, 758, 760 

of police. See Police, killing of. 

after resignation •.•••. 383 

used by Government to justify oppres- 
sion 594-96 

of priests 162H, 715-16, 799-800, 1036 

of prisoners. .. .61, 89, 105-7, I 6o, 373~74> 54 1 - 
42, 766, 768-69. 

of public officials 16111, 280-81, 341-42, 

357-58, 509-11, 603, 861. 
screened by official falsehoods. . . .33, 36, 61, 365, 
373-74, 593", 624, 660, 767, 773, 931. 
1042, 1045, 1064-67. 
British begin campaign of ... .721-22, 1056-58 

responsibility for 594,596 

sanctioned by Government. 151, 380, 

385-86, 427, 1057. 

screened by official falsehoods 33, 36, 61, 

365, 373-74, 593". 624, 660, 767, 773. 
931, 1042, 1045, 1064-67. 

take place at night 43. 84, 87 

threatened 20, 34, 408, 513, 570, 645, 

738-39, 752-53, 777, 788-89, 791, 815, 817, 
822, 858, 862, 914, 931, 1037, 1039-41. 



Nuns Page 

unprovoked 512-13, 668, 768-69, 865, 930 

unpunished 427, 800, 931, 1053, 1054, 

1055, 1057- 
See also Civilians, Shooting of. 

Murphy, Mrs. Anna, testimony of 402-406 

Murphy, James, tortured 778-79 

Murphy, Nicholas 266 

Murphy, Sean, affidavit of 778-79 

Murtagh, Constable, murdered by comrades. 636-37 
Muskerry i 9 8 

N 

Napoleon 231, 985-86 

Napoleonic Wars 236 

Nass, shot up by police 824 

Nation, London 533, 601, 1055 

New York iii, 3l 4 

National conscience, growth of in Ulster.. 554, 555 

Nationalists 309 

See also Redmond, John. 

Balbriggan a stronghold 93-94 

become Sinn Feiners 523, 920 

constituencies included in Ulster parliament. 555 

county council elections i54~55 

expelled from work in Belfast 556 

unite with Labor and Sinn Fein in Ulster. 550 

Party defunct 190-91, 456, 522, 523-24 

discredited by broken Government prom- 
ises 522-23 

Nature of military occupation 41 

Nervous breakdowns from terrorism. ... 135, 515, 
710, 748, 749, 868, 918. 

New Republic 138, 140 

New Statesman 139,' 1058 

Newcastle, England, demonstrations in 532 

Newcastle-West 

mark of respect for dead forbidden.. 681 

terrorism in J 672 

wrecked by police ; . 823 

Newman, Major Oliver P., member of the 

Commission vii; in, 1S2 

selected on Mission to Ireland. . . . ; . r . . . ; . 51; 
Newport creamery, ambush falsely alleged. .:'. 995 

New Ross . . .' , : 40i„' 4^3 

cooperative society hall wrecked. .... ... '9.93 

Newspapers, American, fed British-censored :;'. 

news ;".-. ' 785 

compelled to print threats 659, 788-89, '791 

correspondents '....'..'..'.'.... .249-50 

debarred from military inquiry. 841 

protests of 578 

threatened 50, 172, 578, 601-2,' 1058 

dare not publish affidavits of atrocities. ...' 788 

editors arrested and imprisoned 786, 1044 

indicted 115 

offices raided 81, 85, 123, 134. 603, 862 

Republican Government without..... 785 

suppressed 47, 210-11, 450, 

787-88, 1053, 1054, 1060. 

New Witness, The ; ,' 89 

New York .187.' 461 

steamboat line to Cork ,.'': . .168, 204 

966-67, 968-69. 
Britain prohibits passenger service. .. .968-69 

Times 162, 358-59, 626, 970, 1.059, ,1060 

Bolshevik scare unfounded 1047 

Nichols, George, Chairman Galway Council, 

imprisoned 863 

Nolan, Thomas, on the run 855-56 

store raided and robbed 858-59 

testimony of 852, 869 

Nonconformists .230, 251 

Norris, Senator George \V., member of the 

Commission viii, 182 

Northcliffe press 615 

Northcote, Sir Stafford 490 

Norway, cost of government less than Irish 

taxes 501 

Nunan, Patrick, Jr., deposition 772-73 

shot by military 77 T ~73 

Nunan, Patrick, Sr., affidavit 771-72 

nuns 195, 220-22 



1094 



o 

O'Brien Page 

O'Brien, Arthur 292. 296, 

297, 298, 311, 329, 1060. 

O'Brien house burned 370-7 1 

O'Brien, Miss Nellie, article by 1036 

statement of 1030-34 

O'Brien, William 219, 618 

O'Callaghan, Lord Mayor Donal 74', 749. 

772, 773. 775, 820. 

Commission appreciates testimony »5'-52 

election 7 1 9~ 2 o 

on the run 735-36, 739 

public and private offices 7 J 9 

raids on home 740 

testimony 718-852 

O'Connell, Daniel 1 88 

Dennis, murdered 813 

Eugene, murdered in bed 813 

John, murdered 766, 8 1 1 

Mr., store burned following threat 819 

Patrick, deposition of 821-22 

O'Connor, Dr., attends murdered Lord Mayor. 635 

life threatened 645 

on the run 645 

Miss Maggie, terrorized 750-5 1 

Maurice, K. C 659 

O'Cruadlaoic, C, affidavit of 774 

O'Curry College 1032 

O'Day, Louis, solicitor of Galway 85, 603 

home demolished 603 

O'Dempsey, Captain P. H., denies thefts by 

raiders 747 

O'Donnell, James, home raided and robbed.. 812 

Red Hugh 198 

O'Dowd, John 495 

O'Dwyer, Bishop 754 

O'Grady, Mr. George, home raided and 

robbed 743~46 

deposition of 746 

Mrs. George, affidavit 744-45 

O'Halloran. Dr 367. 369 

Oil fields, England collars 215, 986 

Old age pensions 168, 236-37, 953 

Republican Government can pay 95 2 

O'Mara, Mr 172. 581, 583 

O'Morda, Sean 776, 778 

O'Neill, Laurence, Lord Mayor 47° 

O'Neill, Owen Roe, death of 200 

"On the Run" 126, 373, 

515-16, 594. 673, 685, 690, 855-56. 

male population 392-93 

public officials 890-91, 1005, 1008 

Lord Mayor MacCurtain 721 

Lord Mayor MacSwiney .278-79, 282-83, 303-4 

Councillor Morgan 39. 43 

Lord Mayor O'Callaghan 735, 739~4o 

vicissitudes of men 304-5, 597, 647-48, 

658-59, 710, 735, 856-58, 863. 

Orange Day 174 

leaders, claims of 561 

incite Belfast riots 556 

spurn rest of Ireland 560-62 

section, ignorance of 253, 550-51 

workmen heavily armed 563 

Orangemen 76 

burn Lisburn . 150, 520 

Orangeism, associated with capitalism 555, 

561, 562. 

Oranmore, burnings 852-53 

resigned policeman killed 149 

sacked by police 824 

O'Reilly, Father 367 

brutally beaten 368-69 

property burned 37 I- 7 2 

O'Reilly, Professor, on Cork Corporation.... 799 

O'Shea, Rev. Edmond, affidavit 790 

American assaulted by police 790 

O'Shea, Poer, Inspector 386 

O'Shiel, Judge Kevin 999 

duties as Land Judge 1005, 1006-7,. 1013 

on the run 1005, 1008 

statement of 1008-12 

O'Sullivan, Aid. John, home raided 638, 740 



Philippines Page 

Owens, Thomas, trades union official flogged. 1061, 
1 062. 



Pallas 70-72 

Pallaskenry 580 

cooperative organizer beaten 987 

Palmer, A. Mitchell, raids by 899 

Palmore, Lady 518 

Pankhurst, Sylvia 615 

Paris Matin 65 

Parliament, British 206, 229, 

242, 462, 465, 483, 493, 494, 541. 

crushes Irish wool industry 230 

Home Rule Bill passed 144, 206, 486 

suspended 146-47 

no opposition in 601 

opposes Irish cooperatives 959 

reasons for distrusting 465-67 

White paper convicts Government of 

atrocities 542, 543, 546 

Irish 196-97, 226-27, 228, 233, 

236, 243-44, 449. 460, 462, 485, 966. 
See also Dail Eireann and Grattan's Parlia- 
ment. 
Parnell, Charles Stewart .. 186, 190, 196, 197, 238 

goal absolute independence 188-90 

Land League 238 

social policy 189 

Passive resistance, campaign of 44, 87, 

352-55, 358. 

gives way to force 353-58 

Patriotic Party 234 

Payne, General Hackett 143 

supports Ulster rebellion 145 

Peace, arguments for 594 

bases of 523, 624-25, 1026, 1051-52 

Constituent Assembly 1026 

human understanding 598 

military and naval menace prevented. ... 1026, 
1051. 

protection to minorities 1026 

release of political prisoners 539, 624 

self-determination 538-40, 625, 

848, 850-51, 1051. 

truce 539-40, 609, 624 

local bodies to govern during. .609, 624, 1026 

withdrawal of Crown forces.. 524, 525, 539-40, 

593-94, 607, 609, 624, 1026, 1047, 1051. 

effect of atrocities on 531 

for Ireland Committee 537-38, 539 

public meetings held 548, 576-77 

offer must be made through Dail Eireann.. 608 

possibility of 523 

promoted by British Labor Party 537, 

572, 1026, 1047. 

by influential Englishmen 537-38, 576 

by Women's International League 539-40 

responsibility for 594 

societies in Britain 615 

Pearse, Padraic 212, 216, 217, 258 

executed 468 

Pearse, William, executed 46S-69 

Peasants, poverty of 453 _ 54 

Pedestrians, arbitrarily interfered with. .. .873-74 

beaten 455, 507-8, 509, 5'4-i5» 

790-91, 874-77, 987- 

horsewhipped 653-54, 775 

robbed ....503-4, 653, 664, 712-13, 775-76, 877 

shot 790-9 1 , 880 

Peel, Sir Robert, founded constabulary 142 

Pembroke, Countess of, hall wrecked 993 

Penal servitude 220, 248 

Penny well sector in Limerick 63 

Penstraw, informer, killed 118 

Pentonville prison 132 

Perversion of justice 154, 177, 180, 

205-6, 207, 472, 493, i»44». 1053. 

Petrol, confiscated for arson 36, 38, no 

Pezolt, Emil, savagely beaten 874-77, 

879, 885, 886, 889. 

testimony of 869-79, 968*1 

Philippines, American imperialists in 445 



1095 



Phoenix Park Page 

Phoenix Park, training depot 376-77, 391, 

395, 407, 421. 

Pitt, William 227 

destroys Irish industries 229 

secures Act of Union by fraud 230-1, 233 

tricks of 230-3 1 

Placemen 233-35 

Plunkett House 450, 991, 1066 

reliability of 984-85, 991 

Thomas, signed Irish Declaration of Inde- 
pendence 242 

executed 468-69 

Sir Horace 139, 141, 619, 985, 991 

convicts Government of falsehood. ... 152-54, 
585-86, 995-96. 

Irish Convention 616 

letter to London Times J 52-53 

lives lost in Ireland ...'". 595 

need for relief throughout Ireland 566 

politics of 997 

starts cooperative creameries 204, 584 

wholesale society 959 

See Irish Agricultural Organisation So- 
ciety. 

"Poisonous insects" 471 

Poland 146, 320, 450, 582, 615, 895, 1024 

Police, British, act as spies 90, 143, 

246, 257-58, 357, 380, 381. 

armed for aggressive war 11, 142, 357, 377, 

391-92, 414, 424, 544, 550, 591, 618. 

captured, released uninjured 44, 793-96 

cost taxed against Ireland 950 

cost exceeds educational expenditure 951 

crime created by 151, 609, 624, 638, 661-62 

drunken. See Drinking and Drunkenness. 
Irish prisoners refuse rescue by 173, 

247, 709, 1007. 

killing of 141, 147, 251, 355-57. 366-67, 

408-9, 521, 592, 666, 852, 881-82, 907, 
996, 1022, 1053-58. 

attitude of people toward 30-31, 

335, 375-76, 546, 593, 606. 

by Black-and-Tans 262, 383, 401 

by other police 636-37 

England's strong card 160, 178 

595-6, 613, 1054. 
evidence as to perpetrators lacking. .. .27, 30, 
366-67, 409. 

in Thurles 16-17, 27-28, 30, 46 

memorandum on 1053-58 

"murder gang" 336, 383, 622, 793-96 

necessary act of justice 149, 264 

not encouraged by Republican govern- 
ment 44, 694 

not murder 90, 256, 

37n2, 595. 621, 805-6, 1055. 

number killed 148, 165, 594-95, 805-6 

disputed by Irish Government 595 

preceded by English violence 148-49, 

542, 546, 573. I053-55- 

trial held 149-50 

unarmed, not shot unless spies 257-58 

33J-3-- 
protected by Sinn Fein. . 165-66, 609, 732-33 

unavoidable in military operations 805-6 

used by Government to justify oppres- 
sion 594-96 

warranted by rules of war 90, 256-57, 

372, 595, 621, 805-6. 

why killed 148-50, 160, 

331-32, 546, 593, 1054-55. 

number of 142, 385, 506-7, 733, 1057 

no retaliation against in Queenstown. .702-3, 714 
Republican police rescue from mobs.... 46, 141 
resignations of. See under Royal Irish 
Constabulary. 

stations 142 

superior to civil authorities 50. 732 

used for political purposes. . . . 142, 143, 146, 606 
See also Black-and-Tans and Royal Irish 
Constabulary. 

Police, Republican 246, 732 

law and order maintained by 45, 46, 128, 

172-73. 3/8, 475, 524. 651, 685, 694-95, 



Protestants Page 

697. 708-9, 793, 881, 886, 973, 977, 
1006-7. 

orders cheerfully obeyed 475 

penalty for acting as.... 46, 524, 709, 732, 793 

wear no uniform 793, 886 

See also Volunteers, Irish. 
Political manipulation of Belfast semi-literate 

population 550-52 

opinion penalized 17, 78, 374, 471, 472, 622, 

760, 812, 855, 856, 891-92, 1018. 

death penalty for 69 

Sinn Feiners ordered summarily shot. . . . 380 
prisoners. See under Prisoners. 

purpose of Constabulary 142, 143, 146, 1011 

question, economic cleavage underlies. .. .442-44, 

457-58, 944-45- 
unanimity of Irish people. See Unanimity. 

Portland prison 250 

Portsmouth Labor Congress 320-22 

Postal service, Britain threatens to stop 623 

Poverty in Ireland 266, 450-55, 500 

effect of on health, sanity, and literacy. .454-55 

Portugal, Irish trade with 967 

Poyning's Law 226-27 

Prayer, for hunger strikers 1036 

hunchback murdered in 125 

man beaten and murdered in act of 503 

people terrorized in 692-93 

Presentation Convent raided 72 

Priests, arrested 790, 800, 1036-38 

beaten 368-69, 790, 800, 801-2, 1058 

denied to victims 509, 781, 783, 860-61 

imprisoned 162, 514, 1036, 1037-38 

kidnapped 161-62 

murdered ldzn, 715-16, 799-800, 827, 

1036, 1040, 1042, 1058, 1060. 

property burned 37 1_ 72 

raided and robbed 513-14 

terrorized 5'3-i4> i°37 

Prisoners, beaten and flogged 108, 

779, 780-84, 1044. 

executed i6iw, 222-23, 467-69, 541-42, 614 

inhuman treatment 470, 629 

768, 786-87, 1039-40. 

left in burning house 109 

murdered 105-6, 160, 541-42, 

688-89, 767, 811, 1060, 1064-67. 

"attempting to escape" 160, 373-74, 392, 

688-89, 766-67, 768-69, 772-7 i. 811, 813, 
1042, 1045, 1064-67. 

by bayonetting 105-7, 766, 769 

handcuffed 768-69 

shot in the back 768-69, 796 

of war. Irishmen entitled to treatment of.. 261— 
63, 786-87. 

ordered shot on slightest resistance 392 

outrages on.... 103-4, 77-- 811, 813, 1053, 1054 

political, English, released 615 

refuse rescue by British police. ... 173, 247, 709 

Republican Army treats kindly 796, 1008 

suffering 47'~73. ^39 

terrorized 107, 108, 752-53, 778-79, 780- 

84, 789-90, 1037, 1046, 1062. 

tortured 107, 108, 778-79, 780-84, 789-90 

causes insanity 783-84 

Propaganda, English 77, 202, 203, 209-10, 

263, 295, 306, 307-8, 316, 338, 372, 602, 
626, 641, 793-94, 1034, 1035- 

apologist insincere 175 

Carson subsidized 205 

controlled cables and press 784-86 

countered 203, 314-15 

foments hatred of Irish 623-24 

incites troops to violence. .. 591, 592, 596, 624 
miscalculates effect of MacSwiney im- 
prisonment 312-13, 318 

prevaricates ....336, 586, 59311, 624, 660, 746, 
758, 773, 825-26, 829-30, 839, 841, 1063 

Weekly Summary, The 59 2 , 624 

unscrupulous 1044H 

Irish 313 

Proportional representation 12, 225, 475-76 

decreases Republican majorities 725-26, 894 

Protestants, arrested 744-45 



1096 



Belfast Page 

Belfast, children unschooled 550-52 

drive Nationalists from employment../.. 157, 
174-76, 180, 555-56, 571-72. 

favor Republic 1 039 

growth of Sinn Fein among 564-65 

clergymen ridicule danger of Catholic usur- 
pation 606-7, 608 

distinguished from ' \ angemen 76 

fight Catholics will, stones 175 

franchise only for J 88, 227 

restricted 235 

friendly relations with Catholics 423-24, 

1033-34, 1035. 

in Balbriggan 96 

in Bantry 126 

in Belfast 171. 176, 564 

in Clogheen 379 

in Limerick 606-7, 608 

in Mallow 920-2 1 

in South Ireland. ... 159, 252-54, 422, 423-24, 
432-33, 440, 476, 502, 526-27, 606-7, 608, 
640, 920-21. 

in Thurles 8-9 

Gaelic League unites with Catholics 1030, 

1031-33- 

homes raided and robbed 743-46, 922-23 

Huguenots in Ireland 502 

in Fenian movement. 188 

in wool industry 482-83 

join with Catholics to avert conscription. .. 1033 

lead struggle for freedom 186, 

188, 431, 432, 460. 

nationality and 1030-32, 1035 

officials elected by Catholics 253-54, 440 

persecution in Caelic Ireland unknown. .252-54, 

501-2, 526-27, 608. 
property burned by Crown forces. .. .37, 77-78, 
126, 580, 607, 832-34, 912, 915. 

threatened 606-7 

seek safety from Marian persecutions. .252, 502 

self-determination favored 443 

support Republic 76, 77, 79, 159, 172, 186, 

188, 431, 432-33. 460, 912, 921, 997, 1035. 
Provocations, British. See British policy. 
Prudential Assurance Company, uses Republi- 
can courts 607, 973, 999 

Public houses (saloons), burned 107, 

1 '4, 177, 370, 408, 563, 812, 819. 

closed by Republican police 475 

Government bars in police barracks 416-17 

426, 566, 670-71. 

killing of Burke in 97-98 

looted 100, 113-114, 177, 367-68, 503, 511, 

563. 587, 670, 675, 812, 857, 910, 933. 

raided and wrecked 103, 114, 511, 587, 706 

Public meetings suppressed 47-48, 116, 388, 

398, 424, 472, 542, 603, 905-6, 1053, 1054, 
1055. 

Public officials, arrested 20-21, 24, i6iu, 212, 

218, 268-69, 283, 306, 356-57, 469-71, 
483-84, 597. 720-21, 734-35, 736, 755, 
1055. 

daily danger of 720-21 

resignations ready in case of 743 

hampered by repeated raids and arrests.... 720, 
734-35, 740, 1000-1. 

imprisoned 21, 22, 24, 212, 218, 222, 344- 

45, 356, 431, 469, 47i, 483-84. 628, 755, 
863, 1000. 

murdered 161 », 280-81, 341-42, 357-58, 

510-11, 603, 633-34, 721-22, 738-40, 861. 

attempts to murder 31, i6l«, 

638, 722, 736-38, 777-78. 

on the run 39, 43, 116, 278-79, 282-83, 

304-5. 430-31, 594, 710, 720-21, 734-36, 
890-91, 984, 1005, 1055. 

raided and robbed 754-55 

Purcell, Mary 266 

Q 

Quaid case, perversion of justice 248-49 

Ouaile, Robert N., home burned 912 

statement of 922-23 



Raids Page 

Ouakers 517 

English, invited by the Commission 517 

persecution in England 502 

religious freedom in Ireland 502, 526-27 

See also Society of Friends. 

Oueenstown 684, 699, 870 

Cathedral raided 701—2 

destruction in 648, 883-84, 889 

England embargoes port.. 168, 240, 619-20, 623 

protest against 203, 6 1 9-20 

named 240 

now Cove 240 

political life 698 

population 848 

raids and searches in 685-87, 689-92 

Republican court in 696-97 

sacked ' 72, 695-96, 813, 824 

soldiers in 82 

terrorized 692-93, 710 

windows demolished 686, 696 

young men "on the run" 710 

See Cove. 

Ouinn, Mrs. Ellen, murder of 300, 

809-10, 1040, 1058. 

Quirk, James, murder of.. 85, 133, 413, 603, 853-54 
Mrs., killed by terrorism 918 



Ragg, murder of Dwyer at 32 

Raheen Rural Industries, burned 585 

wrecked and robbed 1045, 1067-68 

Rahilly, Alfred D 738 

Raids 352-, 593, 622-23 

absence of security from 720 

alleged purpose 72, 384, 678, 

691, 701-2, 704. 

becoming worse 773 - 74 

Bishops' graves violated 701-2 

by Irish on British mails 258-59, 696 

tO' secure arms 90, 365, 542, 

650, 687-88, 793-96. 

drink and extra pay for 4 18- 19 

in Belfast 563-64 

in Cork 81, 122-23, ^4, 361, 

522, 604-5, 630-31, 636. 644, 656-57, 
740, 742, 747-48, 752-53, 756-57, 791. 
812-13, 815, 823. 

nightly 124, 651. 722-23 

in Dublin 49, 430-31, 592. 736, 863. 

in Limerick and Galway 82-83, 130-31, 

411-13, 418, 507, 602. 

in Queenstown 72, 685-87, 

689-92, 703-5- 

in Ulster 898-99 

indiscriminate 473"74, 622, 

686-87, 1054-56. 

officers in command of 5 '3, 622, 

686, 744, 746, 748,-749,912. 

on barracks 33, 36, 9°, 373.- 

618, 782, 794-95, 906-7, 1042. 

on cathedral 701-2, 1058 

on city halls 736, 754, 79 1, 982 

on colleges 693-94, 1 058 

on convents 72, 1037, 1058 

on countryside '37, 455 _ 56, 

503-4, 5i6, 522, 867. 

on homes 54-55, 102-3, 119, 

2-jT, 281-82, 307, 310, 361, 408. 542. 
630-32, 636, 644, 656, 685-87, 689-92, 
703-5, 740-4 1 , Z42, 744-46, 747-49, 750- 
51, 752-53, 771, 777, 900-2, 906, 987, 
1053, 1054, 1068. 

on Mansion House 4 30-3 1 

on Protestants 37, 126. 607, 

743-46, 922-3. 

on public houses (saloons) 103, 107, 

1 13-14, 177, 367-68, 370, 408, 503. 51 1. 
563, 587, 670 675, 706, 812, 857. 9io, 
933. , 

en public bodies 735-3° 

on stores, shops, and offices 81, 85, 

'03. 113, 722-23, 1025. 



1097 



Railroads Page 

on unprotected women 82, 384, 508-9, 

583-84, 587, 622, 630-31, 632-33, 636, 
644, 647, 656, 669-70, 741, 748-49. 750^ 
51, 778, 810-11, 817-18, 857, 901, 1037, 
1040, 1 04 1, 1067-68. 

photographs of 533, 602 

prevent efficient public administration 720- 

21, 734-35. 740. 

without provocation 58, 431, 636, 

656, 702, 706, 742, 743, 1067-68. 
See also Burnings, Destruction of Property, 
Looting, Reprisals, Terrorism. 
Railroads, Irish, built for strategic purposes. . 939 

controlled by Government 582, 939 

munitions strike 89, 159-60, 168, 582, 

589, 894-97, 1024, 1025-26, 1028. 

rescinded to save economic life 896-97 

prohibited from hauling cattle and pigs. . . 581 

stoppage of 579, 582, 679, 1028 

British Government threatens 623, 1025 

causes economic crisis 581-82 

food shortage 582-83, 610-n 

unemployment 589, 1 028 

dislocates travel 582, 679 

Ranclagh Convent, raided 1037 

Rape. See Sex Crime. 

Rates 561, 562, 728, 731, 734, 94 2 . 

948, 954-56. 
See also Local Government Taxation. 

Rathduff, captured police released.... 795 

Reading jail 471, 631 

Rearcross, cooperative creamery burned 992 

Recruiting Act 206 

Red Cross 207, 340, 1 045 

American, 340; a government institution.. 611 
aids Russian counter-revolutionists. .. .611— 12 

impartiality questioned 611-12 

not engaged in Irish relief 575-76, 611 

• unable to work in Germany 611 

British , 575 

aids Ulster rebellion 144 

military organization 610— 1 1 

Geneva 575, 612 

Redmond, John E 196, 223, 641 

demands control of volunteers 208, 212, 344 

dual voice of 190-91 

Financial relations commission 489-90 

opposes volunteers 207, 209 

policy of 209 

recruiter for England 209, 54 1 

Rcdmondites 210, 242 

accept Home Rule Bill of 1914 146 

discredited by broken Government prom- 
ises 522-23, 524 

lose elections 93, 94, 223-24 

newspapers 211, 789 

without power 456, 522-23, 524 

See also Nationalists. 

Reformation, history of 221 

Irish Pale 616 

Reiska, cooperative creamery wrecked 992 

Relief of destitution, American Red Cross 

not assisting 575 _ 76 

by Cumann na m'Ban 645, 646-47 

by public subscription 112, 918-19 

by unemployment insurance 918-19 

inadequate 569, 925-26 

not available 569 

expelled workers' committee 550, 566- 

67, 571-72, 1049-50. 

need for 112, 203, 299- 

300, 302, 338-39, 4<>S-6, 566-67, 575, 
589-90, 609-10, 647, 715, 918-19, 926. 
Republican government can provide if 

free 844 

St. Vincent de Paul Society 453, 569 

Religious aspects of Fenian movement 188 

differences dissolved by Gaelic League. .. 1029- 
34, 1035- 
less than in United States 433 



Reprisals ' Page 

not involved in Republican movement . . 73, 

76, 156-59, 186-87, 640. 
primarily economic and political .... 156-59, 
178, 255, 436-37, 442-44, 457, 562., 574. 
economic cleavage underlies. .. .442-44, 574 

theological basis nil . . . 158 

unimportant 1 86 

harmony, among Republican leaders........ 77, 

437, 640, 1035. 

in South Ireland 8-9, 159, 252-54, 

379, 422, 423-24, 432-33, 440, 476, 501, 
526-27, 606-7, 608, 640, 920-21. 

issue in Ulster 156-59, 432-35 

artificial 78-79, 157-59, i7'i 

180-81, 432-33, 557-58. 

created by England 230-31, 251-52, 

476, 6:6, 621, 1031, 1034-35. 

expelled workers..... 157, 174-175 

176, 180, 566-67. 

fostered by manufacturers 79, 157-59, 

171, 178, 180-81, 254-55, 434-45, 440, 
. 557-58, 574.. 
prejudices overcome by Gaelic League. 
See above. 

by labor organization 158, 435, 553-54, 

555, 573-74- 

by personal contact 171,-176, 564, 565 

riots , 175, 177, 476, 520 

political basis 555-57, 567, 1050 

school question 433, 440-42, 550-53 

to be ended .500-1 

legislation prohibited by Republic 976, .977 

persecution in England 252,. 501-2 

unknown in Gaelic Ireland 252-54, 

501, 526-27, 608. 

of Quakers 502, 526-27 

pictures bayonetted. . . . : , no 

services — congregation beaten 1038 

fired upon 654-55 

searched 48 

terrorized ........'. 666 

disrupted by military 82 

invaded by armed police 395-96, 

425-26, 1038. 

tolerance of Irish people 252-54 

war, England trying to incite 252-54 

See Protestants and Ulster. 

Repeal Movement 1 86 

Reppington, Colonel 144 

Reprisals, Abbeyf eale . . 666-68, 669 

against English sympathizer 588 

neighboring houses ; 804-5 

political opinion 17, 77-78, 374 

Protestants 580, 586, 743-46 

unarmed civilians 16, 119, 374, 376, 409, 

521, 570, 622. 

women and children 605, 669-70, 8 10- 11 

violate rules of war .....261, 1059 

alleged justification for. . . . . . 161, 400, 580, 586, 

593, 602, 605, 606, 670, 773, 883. 

based on manufactured pretense 81, 512-13, 

580, 586, 623, 636, 773, 994-96. 

cause milk famine in towns 406 

Cork 81, 605, 618 

Cove 72 

defended by Sir Nevil Macready 164-65 

Dillon's Corners, without justification 883 

Englishmen ashamed of 524 

Ennistymon 520-21 

essential to government by force. ......... 624 

excessive 83, 84, 593 

Feakle 367-74 

forbidden iii U. S. Army 667 

Gahvay .......... .84-85, 130-135, 410-13, 852 

indiscriminate 580, 603, 804-5, 9 12 

investigation after killings ......412, 892' 

Limerick 83 

Lisburn 570-7 1 

Mallow 618 

Miltown-Malbay . .-. 602-3 

officially ordered ...66, 622, 74611, 804—5, 

916-17, 1058-50. 



um 



Republic Page 

directed by officers 586, 60s, 686, 746, 912 

sanctioned . 164-65, 586, 622 

people refrain from retaliation against 

police 702-3, 7 1 4 

support Republic despite 375 - 7° 

Skerries 1 18-19 

stopping of as means to peace 523 

Templemore 34~35 

Thurles 16 

Tuam 408-9 

war on women and children 124, 133, 

531, 605-6. 

without justification 161, 400, 514-15, 580, 

586, 5931/, 714, 805, 883, 994-96. 
Republic, Irish. See Irish Republic. 
Republican Army. See Irish Republican 
Army. 
Courts. See Courts, Republican. 
Government. See Ireland, Government of. 
Parliament. See Dail Eireann. 
Police. See Police, Republican. 

Resident magistrates 5 ' . 2 46 

Republicanism, attempt to suppress by force.. 17. 
141, 474, 598. 

growth of 195-96, 572, 651, 661, 

827, 845-46, 1038-39, 1046-47. 

in Belfast 172, 55°, .564-65. 567. 845-46 

Republicans, Parnell works with 188 

See also Irish Republican Leaders and Sinn 
Fein. 
Resignations, of assistant inspectors general. . 1056 

of Black-and-Tans 598-99 

of Deputy Inspector General W. M. Davies.1056 

of Deputy Lieutenants...., 155, 905 

of General Crozier 599" 

of Inspector General Smith 384 

of magistrates 51, 155. 246, 905 

of police. See under Royal Irish Con- 
stabulary. 
of Privy Counsellor Sir Thomas Stafford.. 155, 

90S- 
of public officials ready in case of arrest. . 743 

Resistance, forcible 353-58 

passive, campaign of 44, 87, 352-55, 358 

Respect for dead contrasted 881-82 

Restoration of Order in Ireland Act 68, 

251, 764, 1044. 

Restrictions on funerals 1 17-18, 512, 802-3 

on import of fodder '. . . . 580 

on Irish industries 229-30, 445-47, 449. 

466-67, 481-83, 486, 579-89, 590, 617-18, 
623, 655-56, 939-40. 

on motor transport 71, 160, 581-83, 

679-80, 1025. 

on railway shipments 581-82 

cause economic crisis 583 

travel demoralized by : . . .679-80, 681 

Richardson, Lieutenant, tortures prisoners... 781 

Richmond Barracks 258, 269, 270 

Ring, Mrs., store looted and burned 924 

Ring, Timothy, Sr., affidavit 820 

Ring, Timothy, Jr., affidavit 82 1 

Riordan, Edward 445-46, 618, 619 

Riots, Belfast 476, 5-0. 555-56 

Londonderry, checked by Volunteers...... 651 

Roads, blockaded 70 

hold-ups on 59 

terrorized by armed lorries 38, X9, 137, 

455-56, 503-4. 516, 522, 867, 988, 1040. 

Robbery by Black-and-Tans 503-4. 508, 509, 

511, 6s3, 664, 675, 712-13. 775-76, 857- 
58, 877, 888, 890, 934, 1067-68. 

by Crown forces 623, 741, 744-46, 749, 

752-53. 754-55. 756, 812. 871. 875-77. 

by military 492-93, 513-14, 666, 675, 745, 

747-48, 754-58, 812, 987. 
See Looting. 
Roberts, Lord, recruits for Ulster rebellion. . 144 

Roberts, Thomas, affidavit 790-91 

shot 791 

Robinson. Mrs. Annot Erskine 621 

personal observations in Ulster 549^ 

testimony of 53off, 587 59Q. 606. 614 



Royal Page 
United States Consul seek to prevent sail- 
ing . 534-37 

Rockwell College 59 

searched for arms 693 

Rooney, Mr. murder of 32-33 

Roosevelt, President 152 

Rosegreen, shot up by police 824 

Ross, D. W., espionage agent 117 

Ross, Judge 472 

Roscommon, County 68 

burnings in 898 

coroners' inquests suppressed 769-70 

land trouble in 1 009, 1 01 o 

Rojal Irish Constabulary 10, 1 1 

advance guard of imperialism 142 

age 415 

ambushed 149, 256, 409, 521, 666, 1058 

aggressive armed force 11, 142, 357, 

391-92, 414, 424, 544, 550, 591, 618. 

barracks 33^ 36, 41, 63, 

95. 96, 129, 351, 400-1. 

attacks on 33, 36, 44, 63, 90, 353. 

373. 397. 618, 782, 794-95. 807. 

fortified 11, 424 

Government bar in... 416-17, 426, 566, 670-71 

houses commandeered for 39, 41, 

62, 66, 72, 78, 126, 148, 1057. 
beat and flog civilians. See Beating and 
Flogging. 

burnings by 6s, 105, 107, 109—12, 

370, 411, 813, 815, 817-18, 819-22, 825- 
43. 852, 992. 

aid firemen 838, 925, 933 

boast of destruction of Cork City 

Hall 821-22 

fire upon firemen 854 

boycott of 780 

captured and released uninjured 44, 793-96 

character of 163, 249—50, 

372, 417, 671, 69s. 

civil status desired 179-80, 425 

coroners' juries indict for murder 31-33, 

80, 362-63, 766. 

impanelled by 33, 363-64, 

764-66. 

creameries destroyed by 64, 153, 824. 

992-93, 1058, 1060. 

crime created bv 151, 609, 624. 

638, 661-62. 

crown counsel drops defense 364 

cut off girls' hair 600-1, 810-1 1, 855 

discipline 671, 1058 

drinking and drunkenness 65, 87, 165, 

399, 622, 670, 793, 822, 853, 1068. 

Government bar in barracks 416—17, 

426,566, 670-71. 

factory burned by 92. 1 1 1 

fairs and markets suppressed 387-88. 424 

G Division 257. 273, 658. 676 

killing of, by Sinn Fein. See Police, Kill- 
ing of. 

by Black-and-Tans 262,383, 401 

by fellow police 636-37 

killings by 3'-33, 79~8o, 105-6, 766, 800-1, 

813, 825-53. 853-54. 

attempted 411-12, 738. 793. 854 

cloaked bv official falsehood. .. .33, 36, 61, 365 

Lord Mavor MacCurtain 280-81, 350-51, 

359-65, 633-35, 639, 738-40. 

number of 599-600, 770-71 

officially ordered bv General Lucas 380 

by Colonel Smyth 66-7, 385-86, 1057 

sanctioned 164-65 

threatened 34. 645, 817, 822 

looting and robbery. See Looting and Rob- 
bery. 

number' of 142, 385. 506-7, 733. '057 

officers opposed to frightfulness sacked. ... 1056 

origin of '4 2 

patrols 350. 618 

pay of 387. 4i4 



1099 



Royal Page 

pensions 167, 389, 425 

raids by 399, 622-23, 630-31, 632-33, 647, 

703, 704, 810-11, 812-13, 816-18, 900-1. 

drink and extra pay for 418-19 

records juggled to conceal murder 350-51 

recruited formerly from peasantry 142 

from England 734 

reinforced by "men who can kill" 413—14 

relations with Black-and-Tans 129, 135-36, 

166, 400-1, 402, 415, 689, 695, 777. 
restrain Black-and-Tans from murder... 777 

shot by Black-and-Tans 262, 383, 401 

religious services invaded. .395-96, 425-26, 1038 
reprisals by. See Reprisals. 

resignations from 66, 166-67, 2 46, 262-64, 

376, 384-85, 389, 4i7, 59i, 733, 810. 

penalized 129, 385, 810 

by flogging. . 149, 262, 417-18, 1058, 1001-62 

by murder 129, 149, 262-63, 383 

prevented by pensions 167, 389, 401 

reasons for 263-64, 384-85, 401-2, 418, 

425, 905. 

reserve force ask to be disarmed 733, 798 

run amuck 351, 410, 701 

service in native county forbidden. . .377-78, 591 

shelter terrorized women 917, 933 

soft-point bullets used 073-74 

spies for military 90, 143, 246, 257-58, 357, 

380, 385, 393-94- 

espionage replaces police duties 393~94 

superior to civil authorities 50, 732 

terrorism by 14-18, 35, 83-86, 618, 622, 

810-11, 817, 821-22, 838, 986-87, 988. 
testimony of resigned members: 

John Joseph Caddan 407-20, 626 

Daniel Francis Crowley 376-89 

Daniel Galvin 421-27 

John Tagney 390-402 

referred to 460-6 1 

repudiated falsely by Sir Hamer Green 

wood 626-27 

towns sacked and shot up 14-18, 35, 83-86, 

812-813. 

training of 376-77, 39', 407. 421 

in use of war weapons 377, 39 I_ 92, 407, 

414, 424. 

used for political purposes 142, 143, 146, 

101 1. 

war, equipped for 377, 391-2, 407, 414, 591 

weapons captured by Sinn Feiners 365 

women assaulted, terrorized, shot 810-11,817 

See also Auxiliary Corps, Black-and-Tans, 
and Police. 

Royal University of Ireland 280 

Rumenia, cost of government less than Irish 

taxes 501 

Ruddy, Hugh, resigned constable flogged. . .417-18, 

1061-62. 
Russell, George W. {M) . . . . 152, 154. 172. 432. 
451, 619, 985. 

editorials by 984, 985-89, 994-97 

Russell, Miss Ruth, testimony of 428-462 

Russia 176, 598 

American Red Cross aids counter-revolu- 
tionists 61 1-12 

Council of Action prevents war against... 320, 

582, 895, 1024. 
See also Bolshevism and Soviet. 

Ryan, Prof. Hugh, D. S. C 980 

Rycroft, General, alleges false excuse for re- 
prisals 995 



Safety of the Empire 457, 609, 617 

Ireland will guarantee 251, 255-56, 61711. 

1026, 1051. 

St. Paul's 256 

St. Vincent de Paul Society 433, 569 

Saloons. See Public houses. 

Samuel, Hon. Herbert, on Ireland 1055 

Sanity, effect of poverty on 454 

San Francisco, Cork destroyed like. .. .878, 880-81 
Sanskrit, relation to old Gaelic 485 



Sinn Fein Page 

Scanlon, American sailor, robbed 888 

Scariff 373 

Schleswig 140, 146 

Scotch Reformation 561 

Scotland 499 

birth rate compared 455 

contented with Act of Union 596, 607, 951 

Educational Act 552 

number of police 142 

prejudice against Irish 613 

relative contribution to Imperial treasury .945-46 

Scott, Sir Walter 192, 202 

Searches, indiscriminate 863, 866, 

87.3-74, .884-85, IOS3- 

of American citizens 55—57, 7 1 , 7 2 , 

679, 680-81, 705, 711-12, 871, 887, 891. 
of women and children. ., .381-82, 404, 513, 630, 
632, 638, 682, 691, 712-14. 
Secret service. See G Division, British Secret 
Service, and Spies. 

Security, absence of in Ireland 720 

Seditious literature, raids for 68, 205, 230, 

505, 786, 900, 1063. 

penalty for possessing 505 

planted to incriminate 306-8, 623, 676 

Self-control of Irish people 76, 122, 134, 160 

Self-determination basis of any Irish settle- 
ment 538-40, 625, 849 

Dail Eireann alone can decide 608 

England's false pretense of 850 

favored by British Labor Party 572-73 

by Protestants 443, 607 

meaning of 456 

right of 607, 848-49, 1047 

Ireland will fight for 850-51 

various interpretations 538-40, 608-9 

Self-Determination League 292, 576-77 

Self-government. See Ireland, Self-govern- 
ment. 

Serbia 455 

Sex crime 751, 1040 

court-martials for 1040 

difficult to ascertain 751, 1040 

no evidence 382, 564, 600 

rape attempted 749~5 1 

Sexton, Thomas, M. P 489 

Schools. See Education . 

Scott, Sir John 348 

Scott, Sir Walter 192, 202 

Shaftesbury, Lord 155 

Shanagolden partially sacked by police 824 

Shandon church, Cork 121 

Shannon, River 173, 466, 1009, ion 

Sheehan, Father, convicted of slander 761 

Sheehy-Skeffington, Mrs 600 

Sherlock, John, murder of 1 18-1 19 

Shipbuilding, Belfast 443, 553, 556,561 

Shrewsbury 271 

Shooting, a night of 105, 370, 910-12 

indiscriminate 63-64, 113, 124, 370, 399, 

520-21, 523, 605, 650, 654, 656, 669, 672, 
700-1, 708, 773-74, 778, 790-91, 815, 828, 
857, 864, 880, 889, 892, 910, 912, 930-31, 
1060. 
of children. See Children. 
of police.' See Police, killing of. 
of Prisoners. See under Prisoners. 
of civilians, fatal. See Murders. 

not fatal Si-52, 374, 403-4, 4". 456, 

669, 713, 768-69, 77J-73, 790-91, 810, 
812-13, S15, 854, 880, 1063. 

Simon, Sir John 538, 5+8, 601 

Shortt, Edward 298-99, 319, 324-26, 470 

Sinn Fein, aims of 167, 170, 523, 541, 961 

assimilates Nationalist Party 522-24 

Belfast, rapid growth in 564-65 

British campaign against. See British Policy. 

cabinet 159-172 

clubs raided, robbed, and wrecked 638, 815, 

816-18, 825. 

constitution of 17° 

constitutional movement 196-97, 344 

desires peace 1 5 l 



1100 



Sisters of Mercy Page 

disrespectable to be 220-22 

elections prove people want 154-56, 223-25 

evidence manufactured to convict 623, 676, 

690-91, 744, 773. 

English sympathizer raided by 587 

"extremists" 141, 147, 318, 336, 365, 

523, 596. 

elections disprove 155 

false insinuation 172, 337, 641, 660 

flag 117, 375, 512, 691, 790, 882 

founded by Arthur Griffith 196-97 

growth of 172, 195-96, 564-65, 651, 661, 

827, 845-46. 
Government. See Ireland, Government of. 
independence not in original program. .. 197, 201, 
54i. 

now demanded 523, 524, 608 

intimidation by, untrue 765 

leaders, ability 449 

arrested and imprisoned. . .20, 21, 24, 16m, 
218, 222, 356, 471, 541, 621, 720-21, 1000, 
1053, 1055. 

executed i6ih, 222-23, 467-69, 541-4J, 

614, 1053. 

highly educated 172, 432, 436-37, 449 

murdered 160, 280-81, 341-42, 509-11, 

721-22, 738-40, 854, 861, 1018, 1053. 

attempts to murder 31, 16 m, 638, 722, 

-36-38, 777-78. 
no religious differences. . 76-78, 437, 640, 1035 
Protestant. .. .77, 172, 43>-32, 437. 460, 1035 

pursued and harassed 39, 43, 116-17, 

278-79, 282-83, 304-5, 430-31. 594, 71°. 
720-21, 734-35, 777-78, 890-91, 984, 1005, 
1053, 1055. 

restrain people from retaliation 702-3 

spied upon 249-50 

law and order maintained by.... 45, 128, 172-73 
meaning and policy .... 196-97, 201, 212-13, 882 

movement 167, 170. 191, 195, 207 

"murder gang" 336, 383, 622, 624, 1028, 

1064. 
disproved by release of captured police. .793-96 
odium for Crown outrages falsely put upon. 262, 

365, 624, 660. 
Parliament. See Dail Eireann. 
police. See Police, Republican. 

supported by business men. 172, 882 

by Irish people 59, 73, 86, 222-24, 

337, 436, 456, 474. 500, 519, 546, 621, 624, 
661, 678, 712, 736, 882, 1038. 

not a class movement 882 

supporters denied auto permits 582-83 

right of assembly 388 

hunted and pursued 39, 43, 1 16-17, 304-5. 

594. 673, 690, 704, 710, 801, 863, 891, 
101 1. 
See On the Run. 

to be bayoneted at sight 396-98 

to be summarily shot 67, 352, 

?8o, 385-86, 388-89, 1057. 

to be wiped out 67, 1057, 1058 

tradesmen, discrimination against 630, 636, 

663, 664. 

Ulster, strength in 172, 432, 564-65 

Ulsterman repudiates 178 

workers expelled in Belfast 157, 174-75, l 7&, 

556. 567. 
See also Ireland, Government of, Irish Re- 
public, Irish Republican Army, and 
Volunteers. 
Sisters of Mercy, ejected from workhouse... 126 

shelter terrorized women and children 692 

Skerries 95, 1 18-19 

Skibbereen shot up by military 812 

Slattery, Henry F 489 

Sligo, County 402, 495 

poverty in 453-54, 459 

Lord 495, 496 

Smith, Inspector General T. J 1056, 1057 

indicted for murder 363 

resigns 384 

Smith, F. E. See Lord Birkenhead. 



Stores Page 

Smith-Gordon, Lionel 167, 450, 459, 619 

Smyth, Divisional Commissioner, incites men 

to violence 66, 385-86, 1057 

killed 67H, 174, 386 

orders Sinn Feiners shot at sight .. .385-86, 1057 

Social life disrupted by terrorism 39 

Socialism, in Irish labor 1022, 104S-49 

like Brehon laws 485 

strongest in Ulster 1049-50 

Socialists, Belfast, expelled from work 556, 

1049-50. 

Protestant 1050 

unite with Labor and Sinn Fein 550 

British, favor Irish independence 608 

Society of Friends, American 528 

English, 579; ashamed of Government's 

deeds in Ireland 524 

Commission to investigate Irish condi- 
tions 517-18, 573 

impartiality of 519, 526 

purpose of 519 

report of 51 9-24 

number of 528 

relieves suffering in Ireland 610 

Irish, aid investigation 518 

never persecuted 502, 526-27 

opposed to all war 527-28 

political affiliations 527 

See also Quakers. 
Soldiers, British. See Military. 

Soldiers (ex), Irish 170, 759 

Britain betrays pledge to 758, 759 

gives election beer to 643 

injures by withdrawal of grants. . 758-59, 760 

fought for rights of small nations 758 

murdered by Crown forces 661, 758, 760 

support Republic 758 

wounded by Crown forces. ■ 760 

Soldiers' and Sailors' Federation 93, 347 

Solomon's judgment 86, 330 

South Africa 1 39 

Southampton, searches at 711 

Southern Ireland. See Ireland, South of. 
Soviet, Russia, American Red Cross not in.611-12 

gold 1 049 

in Ireland 1047, 1049 

See also Bolshevism and Russia. 

Spain 491, 627 

Irish consul in 966 

trade with 967 

Spies ". 594, 623, 1055 

criminals sent as ..... . 249-50 

essential to government by force 624 

G Division 257-59, 273 

police act as 90, 143, 246, 257-58, 

357. 380, 381, 385, 392-93. 

reward offered for 117, 474, 696 

. shooting of police as, justified by code of 

war 331-32 

shot only on official evidence 259 

prior warning given 260, 331-32 

unarmed police not shot unless 257-59 

Stack, Austin, T. D 392 

Stafford, Sir Thomas, resignation of 155, 905 

Starvation 45 '-53, 461 

America asked to prevent 340 

caused by destruction and burnings. .338-39. 698 

people facing 715 

suffering of women and children 338 

wages 429, 447, 450-i 

Stewart, Rev. William 76 

Stockley, Prof. W. F. P 660, 799 

affidavit 737-38 

attempted murder of 1 722, 736—38 

Stores and shops, burned 77, 88, 107, no, 

370, 408, 520, 563, 587, 606, 773, 815, 
816, 825-26, 828-29, 837-38, 923-24, 928. 

financial losses 47, 832-34, 922-24 

looted 39-40, 100. 1 13-14, 177, 367-68, 

587, 666, 773, 778, 816, 858-59, 885, 
923-24- 

raided and wrecked 81. 85, 103, 1 13. 603, 

605, 657, 706-7, 773, 778, S84, 885. 



1101 



Strickland Page 

customers assaulted 706-7 

Strickland, Major General Sir E. P 310, 361 

holds military inquiry into burning of Cork. 840 

report suppressed by Government 841 

Suck River. •.•••. 466 

Suffering. See Destitution, Destruction, Irish 
People, Relief, Starvation, Unemploy- 
ment, Women and Children. 

Sughreel, shot by Black-and-Tans 456 

Sullivan, hay burned 456 

home commandeered 62 

shot by Black-and-Tans 456 

Sullivan, T. D., poems of 200 

Sunday's Well, deaf man killed at 713 

Suppression 1060 

British policy of 1053-58 

of civil liberties. .47-48, 115-16, 210-11, 542, 545 

of coroners' juries 50, 69, 80, 

168, 409, 622, 763, 769-70. 

of Dail Eireann i6i», 243 

of fairs and markets 387-88, 424, 543, 580, 

715, 1054, 1055. 
of Irish industries. See under Industries. 

of news 578, 623, 784-86, 104411, 1058. 

Freeman's Journal 47, 115, 786, 787, 1044 

of newspapers 47, 81, 85, 210-11, 450, 542, 

787-88, 862, 1053, 1054, 1055, 1060. 

of popular festivals 398-99, 401-2 

of public meetings 47-48, 116, 388, 424, 

472, 542, 603, 905-6, 1053, 1054, 1055. 

of public inquiries 85, 603 

of Republican courts 250-51, 356 ,621, 697, 

732, 761-62, 979, 1001, 1012-13. 

of truth about Ireland 90 

by British-controlled cables and press. .. 784-86 

unwarranted 388-89 

Swanwick, Mrs. H. M 538, 999 

letter to Commission 617-19 

Swanzy, District Inspector 362, 738 

indicted for murder 80, 363 

killed 149-150, 570 

Sweden 467 

cost of government exceeded by Irish taxes. 501 

Switzerland 435 

comparative cost of government 501 

Swords, shot up by troops 824 

Sydney, Sir Henry 478 



Tangney, John, Ex-Constable, resignation from 

Constabulary 401-2 

testimony of 390/F 

Taxes, income, chief direct tax 729 

collected by Republican Government 164, 

524, 976. 
increased by Republican Government.... 955 

indirect 730 

Ireland exploited by Britain for 163-64, 

236-38, 486, 487-90, 500-1, 729-30, 945-52 

local rates 561, 562, 728, 942, 954-56 

paid- to Republican bodies 731-32, 734, 

954- 

prove Ireland self-supporting 954-55 

people refuse to pay to England 164, 

697-98, 729. 

Taylor, Sir John 365 

Taylor, Ralph, testimony of 886-88 

Taylor, Captain Shaw, killed by land rioters. . 1006, 
1009, 1011. 

Temperance movement, Irish 250, 423, 695 

Volunteers pledged to sobriety 87, 695 

suppress drunkenness 695, 697, 708 

Templebredan, raid on 54 

Templemore, miracle at 127, 130 

shot up 35. 824 

town hall burned 35, 127 

Volunteers maintain order in 128, 173 

Terrorism 1 60, 62 1 , 622-23 

deaths from terror and exposure 117, 

742-43, 917-18. 
effect on economic life. .. .38-40, 116-17, 655-56 

families driven from home by 112-13, 

J 37> 524, 667. 692, 710. 810, 811, 917. 



Thurles Page 

feis suppressed ^gg 

growing worse 48-49," 773 

m Abbey feale 666 

in Balbriggan 101-19, 137 

in Cork 72, 80, 522, 604-5, 633, 638, 653- 

56, 662-63, 742, 752-53, 756, 773-74, 776, 
790-91, 821, 828, 883. 

in Dublin 49, 430, 592, 736. 863, 867 

in Ennistymon 520-2 1 

in Galway 130-35, 41 1-12, 

413, 509-u, 856, 857, 867. 

in Headford 516 

in Limerick 63-64, 82-83, 136, 520, 

580, 585, 589-90. 

in Mallow 910, 912, 915, 

917-18, 919-20, 930-31. 

in Oueenstown 692-93, 706, 710-11 

in Templemore 121-22 

in Thurles 14-15 

in Tuam 88-89, 408-9, 513, 

579, 604, 824, 1060-63. 

intensifies determination for freedom 337, 

652, 661, 712, 851, 919-20, 1056. 

invasion of almshouse 678 

of religious services 397, 692 

military campaign of 160-61, 1053-58 

night of yelling, burning and shooting. . . . 105, 
37o, 912. 

of convents 1037 

of countryside 38, 59, 137, 455-56, 

503-4, 516, 522, 867, 988, 1040. 

of prisoners 107, 108, 752-53, 778-79, 

780-84, 789-90, 1037, 1046, 1062. 

of women and children 102, 132-33, 370, 

507, 516, 524, 600, 618, 622, 633, 638, 
654, 656, 662, 692, 699, 700, 704, 710, 
748-49. 756, 810-11, 816-18, 822, 856, 857, 
865, 883, 917-18, 1037, 1040. 

effect of 19, 34-39, 524, 628-29, 632-33, 

638, 654-55, 656, 662, 710, 742, 748-49, 
778, 867-68, 917-18, 1062. 

on city streets .49, 521, 653-55, 656, 

666, 706, 713-14, 773-74, 883. 

prevalent in Ireland 121-22, 137 

repudiated by resigning Black-and-Tans. . 598-99 

surpasses Turks in Balkans 1058 

six days of 1 12-13 

wholesale 656, 864-67, 1054, 1055 

See also Indiscriminate Shooting, Threats, 
Torture. 

Terry, Michael A., affidavit 774~75 

Textile industry. 115, 156-57, 254 

workers organized 115, 254, 434 

Thierry, Augustine 476 

Thomas, J. H 895, 1024 

duplicity of 320-22 

only sympathy for Irish strikers 896 

urges end of munitions strike 1026 

Thomas, Rev. Norman M., member of the 

Commission viii, 311, 182 

selected on Mission to Ireland 5»» 

Thompson, Sir William 454 

Threats by Crown forces 860, 987 

against newspaper men 50, 788 

officer admits official nature of 791-92 

to murder 20, 34, 408, 513, 570, 645, 

738-39. 752-53. 777, 788-89, 791, 815, 
817, 822, 858, 862, 914, 931, 1037, 1039- 
40, 1041, 1062. 

attempt to extort information by 107, 

752-53, 755, 778 T 79, 792, 856. 

papers forced to publish 659, 788-89 

to sack and burn 34, 1 17-18, 128, 

788, 816-17, 856, 908, 1041. 

to stop railw-ay and postal service 623 

Thurles 6ff, 122, 141 

absence of crime 9 

Cleary, Michael, shot 5 1-52 

courts of 10 

elections .....7, 8, 11, 13 

hospital commandeered by British 40 

industries and population 7 

military occupation 10 



1102 



Times Page 

religious harmony 8 

shot up and terrorized 14/F, 31, 823 

worse than Flanders 18 

town hall commandeered 39 

urban council 6 

election of 7, 8 

favors Irish independence 11 

Times, Irish 993, 1036-37 

Times, London 173, 519, 1064 

Times, New York. 162, 358-59, 626, 970, 1059, 1060 

Bolshevik scare unfounded 1047 

Tipperary 377, 390, 665 

captured police released uninjured 794 

coroners' inquests suppressed 769-70 

creameries destroyed 387 

destruction in 715 

disruption of community life 425 

fairs and markets suppressed 387-88, 424 

f eis suppressed 398-99 

hay ricks burned 583-84 

partially sacked by military 824 

South Riding 421, 424 

Tithe Wars 186, 237 

Toksvig, Miss Signe 6, 138 

testimony of 174-182 

Tone, Wolfe 186, 197, 1047 

Tories, support Carson 143, 205 

Torture of prisoners 107, 108, 756, 

778-79, 780-84, 789-90. 

Towns shot up, sacked, or burned 14-17, 31, 

92, 97-102, 126, 520, 812-13, 822, 823, 
824, 1057, 1060. 

surpass German ravages in Belgium 822-23 

Townshend, Miss Caroline M., testimony of. 1000, 

1015-19, 1029-36, 1042-44. 
Trade and commerce. See under Ireland. 

Tralee ... 50, 172, 455, 679, 1057 

captured police released uninjured 795 

partially sacked 823 

shops closed 338 

shot up by police 824 

Transportation. See Motor Transport and 
Railroads. 

Treason against Crown M3-45, 204 

Tricolor, Irish 117, 375, 512, 691, 790 

Trim, sacked by police 825 

Trinity College 485 

Tuam, Archbishop of 604 . 

atrocities in 88-89, 579. 604, 1060-63 

sacking of 408-9, 513, 604, 824 

terrorism in, Exhibit III 1060-63 

Tulane, Mr., candidate for Council chairman. 24 

deported 20 

Tuberculosis, in Belfast 561 

prevalence of 454-55, 953 

Ulster lags in preventing 952-53 

Tulla 368 

sacked by police 824 

Turk, Henry, testimony of 879-82 

Turk, Misses, assaulted 855 

Turner, ex-soldier, murdered 929-30 

Tyacke, Assistant Inspector General, resigns. 1056 

Tyrone, County 555, 574, 762 

Tyranny, petty 693 

Tyrrel, Colonel, captured and released unin- 
jured 795 

U 

Ulster 174, 239, 466 

American Civil War parallel 225-26 

Coercion Act not applied to 764 

conditions different from South Ireland. . 178-79 

counties of 76 

delegation 798, 940, 941, 942, 943, 945; g 5 8 

destruction in 898, 899 

elections, Republicans elected in Belfast. .. 225, 
. 475-76, 55°, 555- 
Unionists lose in Ulster.. 154, 156)1, 555, 1056 

England keeps divided 230-31, 251-52, 

476, 616, 621, 1031, 1034-35. 

English plantation in 179, 336, 477, 616 

factories. 78, 179, 553, 565. 941 

position in Republic 253, 500-1, 612, 1029 

history of 175, 179, 616 



Unemployment Page 

Home Rule held up (1914) 146, 204-5, 

206, 540-41, 574- 

Home Rule supported (1920) 554, 574, 845 

independence projected by Carson. ... 144, 204-5 

labor, conditions of 179, 565 

expulsion of Nationalist workers 157, 

1.74-75,. 176, 180, 555-57- 

basis political, not religious 555-56, 

567, 1050. 

Expelled Workers' Committee 550, 

566-67, 571, 1049-50. 
kept divided by religious agitation. See 

under Manufacturers, below, 
organization dissolving religious preju- 
dices .158, 435, 553-54, 555, 573~74 

political question paramount 440 

socialistic 1049-50 

supports munitions strike 896 

supports self-determination 435 

threatens hold of Carsonism 158, 555 

, wages 157, 439, 447, 553, 561 

loss of population 940 

manufacturers promote religious fanaticism. 79, 
156-59, 171, 178, 180-81, 254-55, 434, 
430, 440, 557-58, 1034-35. 

why Unionists 436 

new national consciousness 554, 1042-44 

partisan administration of law and order . 563-64, 
606. 

personal observations in 549-50 

policy adopted by British Government. ... 544-47 

effect of 609 

position in Republic 253, 500-1, 612, 1026 

possibility of settlement in 435-36, 549, 616 

Parliament 606, 612 

capital levy prohibited 555, 574, 1049 

labor domination feared. ... 158, 555, 574, 1049 

Protestants in South Ireland 8-9, 159, 

.379. 422, 423-24, 432-33, 440, 606-7. 
Rebellion: British Government refuses to 

suppress 144, 543 

Curragh Camp refuses to suppress 145, 

205, 543- 

guns imported from Germany 144, 204, 

206-7, 607, 648, 651. 

King prohibits Carson's arrest 144 

leaders of 1 43-44 

supported by English aristocrats 143, 

205, 540-41. 

treason against Crown i43 _ 5, 204 

union with Germany threatened 204-5 

religious issue: an insincere excuse 616 

artificial 78-79, 156-59, 171, * 78, 

180-81, 432-33, 434, 440, 476. 

created by England 251-52, 

476, 616, 621, 1031, 1034. 

dissolved by labor organization 158, 

435, 553-54, 555, 573-74- 

by personal contact 171, 176, 564, 565 

fostered to prevent labor organization . . . 79, 
156-59, 178, 180-81, 434, 436, 557-58, 
1034-35- 

monster of religious prejudice '. . 180-81 

Republicanism, growth of 172, 432, 

564-65, 567, 572, 845-46, 898, 1056. 

school question 433, 440-42, 551-53 

shipyard riots 157, 174, 175-76, 180, 555-57 

Solemn League and Covenant 205, 559 

Socialism in 1 049-50 

tuberculosis neglected 561, 952-53 

Volunteers. See Volunteers, Ulster. 

wealth of, less than Leinster 940—42 

See also Belfast, Protestants, Religious 
Issue. 

Ulstermen, refuse Home Rule Bill 146 

Republicans 432 

Unemployment 451, 972, 1029 

caused by burning of creameries, factories 

and towns 65, 94-95, in— 12, 254, 

339, 448-50, 581, 589-90, 842, 915-16, 
1029. 

by expulsion of Belfast workers 157, 

174, 176, 180, 555-57- 
by railway strike 589, 1028 



1103 



Unanimity Page 

by repression of Irish industries 448-50, 

. 581, 589-90, 936. 

by terrorism 655-56 

insurance 918-19, 1029 

suffering from. . 589-90, 610, 656, 842-43, 918-19 

Unanimity of people for Republic 29-30, 

59, 73, 86, 222-24, 244. 337, 436-37, 456, 
474, 500, 519, 546, 621, 624, 661, 678, 712, 
736, 850-51, 882, 919-20, 1038-39, 1044, 
1055- 

Unionism, stronghold of capitalism 555, 561 

Unionists ...189, 267, 309, 364, 434, 435, 456, 696 

alienated by Government policy 607, 

912, 950-51, 1039- 

Balbriggan elections 93~94 

condemn excesses under Cromwell 847 

counties receive English grants 760 

defeated in Ulster elections 223-24, 

225, 475-76, 550, 555, 760, 1056. 

irreconcilable Unionism dead 522-23 

leaders interviewed 550, 624 

spurn rest of Ireland 560-62 

oppose proportional representation 225 

opposed Land Acts 943 

property destroyed 64, 111-12, 125-26, 

254, 607, 662, 832-34, 912, 915. 

property spared 923 

recognize Republican Government 524, 

734. 980, 983-84. 

rich mill owners support 435 

reason for 436 

Southern 579, 641 

favor independence 155, 1039 

oppose new Home Rule 846 

prosperity of 502, 606 

want dominion home rule 155 

ridicule Catholic menace 606-7 

use Republican courts 155, 247, 251, 999 

United Irishmen 231, 232-33 

Irishwomen 619 

United States 140 

agreement with Cuba 255 

army 148, 665 

forbids reprisals 666 

punishes terrorism 673 

Cabinet 358 

citizens, assaulted and beaten 790, 

874-77, 879, 885, 886, 889-90. 

blacklisted 368 

citizenship ignored 55, 679, 872, 875, 890 

insulted 691-92, 872 

property confiscated 56-57 

searched 55-57, 679. 681, 690 

stolen 249 

robbed 877, 888, 890 

searched 71, 72, 679, 681, 682, 

70S, 711-12, 871-73, 887, 891. 

Congress 235, 467 

Congressmen iii 

Continental Congress 169 

consul hinders coming of witnesses. . 534-37, 998 

Department of State 969 

affidavit of English witnesses submitted 

to 537" 

complaint of outrages on American sailors 

filed with 877 

immigration laws of 768 

passports vised $n 

flag insulted 685-86, 687 

friendlv relations with Britain menaced... iii, 
686, 872. 

Government x, 873, 97m 

Mail Steamship Company 619, 963, 966, 969 

passenger service to Cork pro- 
hibited 168, 619-20 

Navy 665 

President 475, 611 

press, fed British-censored news 785 

gives small space to Irish atrocities. .. 785-86 

Senate 467 

Senators iii 

Shipping Board 619, 870 

trade with Ireland. See American Trade. 
Unknown destination 46, 694, 697, 709, 1007 



Walsh Page 

Upperchurch, partially sacked 824 

Urban councils, arrest of members. .20-21, 24, 720 

declare allegiance to Dail Eireann 155, 

724-25, 894. 

elections, Republicans win 29-30, 154-56, 

244-45, 475, 546, 721, 724, 894, 1014, 
1055-56. 

grants withheld to paralyze 168, 586, 

726-27, 730-31. 

murder of members 510-11, 721-22 

attempted 31 

See also Local Government. 

V 

Valley Forge 203 

Vigilance committees, Belfast 558 

„ Cor ^. „ 652-53 

Veto bill 146 

Vice-Regal Commission on Education 441 

Victoria, Queen 193, 240 

Vitality, effect of poverty on 454~55 

Volunteers, Irish 76, 118, 125, 127, 150, 162, 

165, 204, 262, 305, 334, 384, 638, 641. 
armed warfare begun. 212-13, 352-54, 1027, 1028 

arms imported 145, 206-7 

secured by raids 90, 365, 

592, 650, 687-88, 793-96. 

bombed to death 650, 800-1 

capture British mail 258-59, 696 

character 87, 695, 708 

constitute Republican army 524, 649, 972 

Convention 208 

declare for Republic 207-8, 241-42 

discipline . . . 150, 173, 694-95 

Easter uprising 216-17, 218-19, 345 

Lord Mayor MacSwinev an officer of 266 

268, 274, 298. 

dying trust in 318- 

effect of death on 233 

maintain order 128, 173, 378, 651, 

685, 695, 697, 708-9, 886, 1006-7. 

number 650 

of 1 782 228 

divided by Pitt 230-31, 232, 251 

organize to resist aggression. .. .205-6, 211, 648 

purpose of 87, 695 

rapid growth of 208, 210, 212, 649 

Redmond demands control of 208-9 

shot while prisoners 160, 688-89, 767-69 

unarmed 134, 351, 357-58 

sobriety of 87, 695, 697, 708 

supported by Cumann na m'Ban. . . .21 1-12, 628 

war against England 352-54, 519 

See also Irish Republican Army and Police, 
Irish. 

Volunteers, National 208-10 

Volunteers, Ulster 144, 211, 1034 

armed and drilled 541, 1039 

Carson starts 205, 1057 

Catholic neighbors protected by 171 

English aristocrats support. ... 143, 205, 540-41 

import arms 144, 204, 205, 206—7, 54 ' 

threaten rebellion 143-44, 204-7, 54°-4 r 

British Government refuses to sup- 
press 142-45, 205, 541-43 

w 

Waddell, Mrs., Protestant Republican 77 

Wages, dollar a week 429 

effect of organization on 437~39, 613 

minimum wage law not applied 447 

standards of living and 438-39. 565 

starvation, in Belfast 78, 157, 

439, 447, 553, 561. 

in Dublin 429-30, 450-1 

Wakefield prison 258, 269, 279 

Wales 596, 631 

Walker, George, shot and bayoneted 769 

Walsh, Miss Anna 620, 634 

home repeatedly raided 656-57 

testimonv of 653-64 



1104 



Walsh Page 
Walsh, Senator David I., evidence intro- 
duced 455-56, 479>i, 503-4 

evidence, specific, wanted 492, 503-4 

member of the Commission viii 

Walsh, Hon. Frank P., of counsel 6ff, 92ff, 

183/f, 430, 636/f, 890, 1059. 

Walsh, James Joseph 629 

attempted murder of 658 

Walsh, Louis, elected in Ulster 475~76 

Walsh, Maurice, life sought by Black-and- 

Tans 380, 381, 382, 385, 427 

Walsh, Councillor Michael, family desti- 
tute 515-16 

murdered 509-11, 512-13, 603, 859-61 

no public inquest held 861 

refused services of priest 509, 860-61 

raids on home 507, 511, 855-58 

restrictions on funeral 512 

shop wrecked and robbed 511 

Walsh, Mrs., home repeatedly raided 384 

Walsh, Miss Susanna 620 

arrested for relief work 645-46 

health shattered by raids 632-33 

testimony of. 627-53 

Walsh, Senator Thomas 182, 297 

Wandsworth prison 270 

War, aggressive, renounced by Ireland 1027 

aims ix, 214-15, 596, 758, 848, 850-51 

atrocities. See Atrocities. 

cost of, against Ireland 591, 897-98, 950 

Britain extracting in taxes. 946-47 

contracts denied Irish industries 445-47 

declaration of, against Germany ... 146, 207, 541 

against England 212-13, 35 2 > 621 

Irish alienated from 145-46 

on defenseless civilians 374, 711, 

865-66, 932, 934, 1053-58. 

on women and children 124, 133, 

531, 647, 712-13. 

on wounded 1044-45, 1063 

restrictions on Irish industries 940 

rules of, violated by England. .260-62, 467, 1059 

state of 374, 524, 621-22, 808, 932 

admitted by Lloyd George 202, 595 

two lines of conflict 979 

zone around Limerick 70 

Warburton, Colonel 467 

Warning of impending murders. See Threats. 

Washington, George 127 

crime of 166 

picture destroyed 57 

Waterford 138. 223,, 419, 715 

cooperative meat industry organized 973 

suppressed 984-89 

Waycross, creamery destroyed 387 

Wealth. See Ireland, Wealth of. 

Weedle, J. G.. statement 924 

store looted and wrecked 924 

ll'eeklv Summary, The, incites to violence. 592, 624 

Welby, Lord 489 

West Cannon, U. S. S., sailors held up and 

assaulted 870-92 

Wells, Alfred 502 

F., American consul, hinders witnesses. . 534-37 
Captain V. H., searches American citizen.. 56 

West Britons 190, 196, 222, 234, 333 

West Meath, County 465 

fuel industry crushed 466-67 

land problem 498 

Westminster 188, 189, 196-97, 

229, 465, 988, 989. 

abstention from 204, 465, 545, 548 

Irish Party 189, 524 

no hope from 466 

Westport 495, 506 

Wexford 150 

County 402, 715, 993 

religious worshippers beaten 1 038 

Whately, Archbishop, censors Irish school 

books 192, 202 

Whig, The, Belfast 17S 

Whiskey tax supports education 194 

Whitbyi Miss 619 



Women Page 

Whitegate, men taken from and shot. .. .373-74 
Wiley, Mr., K. C, drops defense of police.... 364 

Wilkinson, Ellen C 531, 532, 535-36, 

544, 549, 559, 577, 578, 620, 1060. 

testimony of 578-626 

Wilkinson, Mary 184 

William III, King 230, 550-51, 555 

Williams, Lily, statement of 1035 

Wilson, President 139, 214-15, 617, 1011 

Windows demolished 14-15, 72-73, 83, 

102, 112, 351, 408, 520, 522, 588, 686, 
696, 705, 707, 710. 741. 812, 822, 823- 
24, 848, 862, 884, 912. 

Witnesses, at MacCurtain inquest 350-62 

of the Commission : 

American consul exacts pledge from.... 535 

hinders coming 534~37 

attempted murder of 80, 64a 

correspondence seized 900-1 

examination of by counsel 6 

expenses paid by Commission 6, 53 

invited, from England 4, 5, 517 

impartially . . . 4, 5, 53 

solely by Commission .... 53, 69, 74, 91, 718 

index of xii-xi v 

scrupulous exactitude x, 311, 931-32, 

Wolfe, J., Crown solicitor 660 

W^olff, G. W 489, 490 

Women (and children), American, in- 
sulted 691-92 

arrested 218-19, 327, 645-46, 744, 1058 

babies, black bread and no milk 405-6 

brutal treatment of 88. 89, 381, 564, 

587, 600, 623, 646, 656, 669-70, 712-14. 
744, 747-48, 750-51. 756, 785, 810-11, 
817-18, 1040, 1041-42. 

Cumann na m'Ban organized 207-8, 299 

cutting of hair as reprisal. .. .600-1, 810-11, 855 
destitution from raids, robbery, and burn- 
ings 515-16, 570—72, 603 

death from fright and exposure 117, 

742-43, 917-18. 

driven from homes 1 12-13, 137, 

370-71, 524, 564, 583-84, 600, 602, 605, 
606, 623, 644, 667, 669-70, 692, 710, 749, 
810-11, 911, 1040, 1057. 

insane by cruelty and terror 88, 91S 

fired upon by Crown forces 31, 113, 

618, 644, 654-55, 656, 713, 778, 810, 857, 
865, 1040. 

mother with child roughly searched 404-5 

murdered 300, 809-10, 867, 

1040, 1058, 1060. 

personal indignities 381, 691—92, 712- 

J 3, 749-5 1 , 810-11, 1040-41, 1058. 

raids on unprotected / 82, 384, 508-9. 

583-84, 587, 622, 630-31, 632, 636, 644. 
647, 656, 669-70, 741, 748-49, 778, 810-11, 
817-18, 857, 901, 1037, 1040, 1041. 
T067-68. 

rape 75i> 1040 

attempted 749~5 ' 

no evidence of 382, 564, 600 

searched 381-82, 404. 5 1 3. 

630, 632, 638, 682, 691, 712-13, 887-88. 

shot and wounded 4°3-4, 456, 

503, 601, 654, 712-14, 810-11, 880, 1058. 

spared 5 2 ' 

spirit of 299, 301. 

106. 315, 606, 652, 661, 919-20. 

suffering inflicted on 203, 299-300, 

337-38, 515-16, 531-32. 564. 571-72, 710, 
712-13, 748-49, 750-51, 753, 778, 785, 
917-18, 1041, 1062. 

terrorized 102, 132-33, 370, 

507, 516, 524, 600, 618, 622. 633, 638, 
654, 656, 662, 692, 699, 700, 704, 710, 
742, 748-49. 753, 756, 810-11, 816-18, 
822, 856, 857, 865. 883. 917-18, 1037, 
1040. 



1105 



Women's Page 

effect of 19, 38-39, 370, 524, 

628-29, 632-33. 638, 654-55, 656. 662, 710, 
742. 748-49. 7/8, 867-68, 917-18, 1062. 

sheltered by Constabulary 917, 933 

wages and working conditions 157, 429-30, 

439, 447. 45°-i. 553. 561, 565. 

war on 124, 133, 531, 647, 712-13 

widows 682—83 

witness assault or murder of husbands and 

fathers 102, 281, 349-50, 

633-35. 657-58. 662, 813-14. 
See also Children and Girls. 
Women's International League, American 

Section 531 

British Section 53 1-532 

demonstrations tO' inform people 532, 572 

letter to Commission 61 7-19 

Mission to Ireland. ... 1 14, 531, 532, 560, 578 

no Catholics on 561 

reason for 5 3 1 —3 2 

report of 532, 560, 595. 620-25 

promotes peace with Ireland 537~40 

Irish Section 979 

founded 532 

proposal for peace 1050-52 



Zimmer Page 

purpose 531, 979 

Women's Trade Union League 1001 

Wood, L. Hollingsworth, Chairman of Com- 
mission v i, 31!, hoc 

Wool trade, crushed by England 481-83, 585 

Workers' commonwealth 1 59-60, 

163, 484-85, 1047, 1048. 

Workhouse raided and terrorized 678 

commandeered for barracks 126 

World, New York 138, 501 

safe for democracy 215 

Wormwod Scrubbs prison 22, 34 

Wounded, war on 1044-45 

Wrangel, Baron, aided by American Red 

Cross 61 1-12 

Wyndham Act 238—39, 454 

Y 

Youghal 126-27, 283. 310, 656 

raids and destruction in 126-27, 812 

Young Ireland, excerpt from 1000-12 



Zimmer, Heinrich, Irish Element in Mediaeval 

Culture 473, 477 



7 1 - ; 9 ' 



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